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The Publishing Playbook
Tim Gebhard and Andrey Bernhart are experienced, unconventional self-publishers who share their strategies on self-publishing, Amazon KDP, book creation, AI, and more in their podcast “The Publishing Playbook.”
The Publishing Playbook
#006 - 34 Minutes of Amazon KDP Cover Creation Knowledge [+TUTORIAL]
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Watch the second half of this episode on YouTube to see our screenshare:
https://youtu.be/H2NKimQBckA
In this podcast episode, Tim and Andrey talk about cover creation, what makes a great Amazon KDP book cover, and what many self-publishers do wrong in terms of cover creation.
In addition, the second half of the video is a full tutorial where they screenshare Visuals by PublishFlow and show you step by step how you can create a great looking cover.
Never judge a book by its cover. Or rather, always judge a book by its cover. In today's episode, me and Andre we will talk about book covers. We think it's especially when it comes to people buying books on Amazon, one of the most important sales factors. What you can do to optimize your covers, what we do for our own covers, this we will talk about in this episode. I'm Tim. I made a quarter million on Amazon roughly in the last 10 months, which is when I started in May 2025. I'm here with my co-host Andrei. You want to introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_01Yes, my name is André Bernhard. I'm an Austrian self-publisher and moved to Cyprus. You too, you're from Germany and moved to Cyprus. I've published 50 high-content books in the last two years and I've made $580,000 around in that in the two years. Yes, and today topic is cover. Very interesting topic. We have a lot of questions prepared from people, but also some topics we want to talk about ourselves. And at the end, a small teaser, we will also share a few covers and show the people how we create our covers and recommendations we would give to the people how to create really good covers. The basic question we can talk about is what makes a cover sell? So what aspects does a cover need to sell on Amazon KDP?
SPEAKER_00Basically, a little background info about that. I think people buy a book because it solves their problem. That's how it works in most of the niches. And I think it's also important for the cover that it emotionally and also logically, rationally addresses the reader's problem. What I try to do is either I show something on the cover that resembles the problem in some way, or what's most of the time more effective is having something on the cover that symbolizes the transformation that they get to the book or the solution to the problem, more or less. I think that is one important factor.
SPEAKER_01To add to that, if you have a book that's unique, that has a unique selling proposition, and you need a unique selling proposition if you want to have a bestseller, you can do the same book as someone else, but you won't be as successful normally than him if you just copy someone, so you normally want a new concept, and it's important that the cover really displays that concept as effectively as possible. Because if you have a great concept, the main element that communicates the concept is the cover. Also the title, but the cover is like a millisecond, and the entire concept is perceived by the person who looks at the cover. You need to optimize it that it really has this positioning, these concepts conveyed in itself, and that's really important.
SPEAKER_00I think what goes together with this is that the text on the cover, the customer should look at it and see instantly the words or the concept that is part of the solution to the problem. In the US market, there's a lot of keyword title books. It's important that these keywords pop out, or it's not necessarily keywords, but the main USP or whatever is the most important text on the cover, it needs to have a good size or at least a good positioning so it's readable and it catches the reader's attention directly. Um, I've seen a lot of covers where it's just like I wouldn't say the text is hidden, but compared to how the text should be displayed, um it is kind of hidden. Yeah. But do covers have to look and work differently in different niches? I think so, yeah. I think one thing that pops into my mind there is um how you display the subtitle. So if you're not familiar with KDP's guidelines, the book titles, so what's most of the time what's in front of the column in the title, so the main title of the book, this needs to be completely like it is on the cover, also. But for the subtitle, you have a lot of variation. For example, some specific self-help book niches. I see that it really performs better to have like the full subtitle and like classic look of the subtitle on the cover. In general, kids' books, I believe, where it's important that it conveys like a fun feeling also. I think it's more beneficial to not necessarily have the full subtitle, but to have like short catchphrases or key phrases, put them on a in a visual appealing way, maybe stray them across the cover, put them in badges, like give them some unique feeling and design. That's one thing where different covers for different niches I would say should be different. But in general, what you also can filter out from what I said, depending on the niche, the feeling in general should be different. It should always match like what the target audience is looking for, or what they essentially want to feel, or what they feel at the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. In general, a cover doesn't have to be beautiful, a cover has to work. That's really important. A lot of people don't get that. Um, if it looks better than the competitors, that doesn't mean that it sells better. So if it can be visually the most appealing cover, but if people not clicking on it and choosing it to buy this book, it doesn't work. It's really important to not only focus on beauty or that it looks professional and nice and better than the others, but that it psychologically works better than the other covers. Because if your cover looks better, but the other cover has a big badge on it that has a written text that exactly addresses a need the reader has, then this book cover will perform better, even though if it looks worse than yours. So it's it's not only look so look nice, psychology behind the cover that makes a big difference.
SPEAKER_00Mistake I've seen a lot of people do is they just take the competitor cover, re-engineer it a little bit, put some extra things on it, but that just makes it more complex. I would always go for a unique cover concept. It can be have some certain elements that are similar to the competitors. People who do this, they over-complicate and over like clutter the image. And one learning from that is also, I think, in most of the cases, simplicity is key. Simplicity is more beneficial. Find out what elements actually convert. For example, if I take a competitor cover, it might have like five elements on it, but it's just one that really sells the book, and you have to kind of find that out. I think A-B testing is a good way also to get closer to the perfect cover. I think we will probably talk about A-B testing a little bit more soon because it's very crucial, I think, when it comes to cover designs. Yeah, maybe you go with the next mistake.
SPEAKER_01One part of the mistake in the beginning is that the text is not readable. Beginner mistake, but still a lot of professional good selling books don't manage it perfectly. It's when you can't read the text if like the colors are different. If it's white text of a bright background, for example, or if it's a dark text of a darker background, the contrast, there needs to be a contrast, and if there isn't a contrast, it's it's just hard to read. Same for subtitles, but especially the main title needs to be clearly readable. Yeah, and the font doesn't, if the font is like some like like writing, that's not normally not a font that works well on KTP. It should be really clear, each character should be written really clear.
SPEAKER_00I've seen some actually good book covers fail because the text was uh I would say the the cover itself has more selling potential in than competitors, but it was the text and the font that kind of um made them not perform too well. Yeah, that's a good point.
SPEAKER_01There's another point I wrote down is too few variations. A lot of people just create one cover, or maybe two, and then choose whatever they like most. And that's I think it's better if you make three, four, or five variations, or out of one variation you make multiple sub-variations. So one steel, but then you switch the illustration of that cover. Everything else stays the same, but the illustration changes, or the text changes, then you get like 20 different covers you can then choose from, maybe your top three, four, or five favorites, and then you can test them.
SPEAKER_00A lot of people, and I would say most of the beginners they do that, they think their cover is great, they like the cover, they might send it to France or whatever, but it doesn't matter what you think about your own cover. I've created covers where I was like super convinced that it is the cover, it's very much better than the competition. But I had to find out the hard way. It doesn't matter what you think about your cover, it doesn't matter what your friends think about your cover, it doesn't matter what other publishers think about your cover. What matters is that the buyer, the customer audience, what they think about your cover, and especially not only your cover, always consider your cover against the competition and against the market. Imagine it, or it's not really useful if you imagine it, but you have to think about how does it look on the Amazon search listings against competitor covers. Yeah, I think that's one mistake, trusting your own intuition or trusting friends' intuition.
SPEAKER_01The fifth mistake I wrote down is no cover surveys. So you're always that's the most important thing I think in all of KDP is testing the cover. And maybe the niche selection and the concept is more important, but immediately after that, because the cover is the thing that conveys the concept, as I said, you need to test the covers. Before you publish a book, test it. Make a survey on PeakFu, for example, your cover against three competitors, and then you get also the people telling you why, and then you can use what they tell you to improve your cover, and you make a second survey, and maybe you win the second one or you lose again and you can implement the feedback again. Maybe after three, four, five surveys you win. I have one book, I think I did 10 or 11 surveys until it won. But now it's my best-selling book because I did it.
SPEAKER_00For me, also, I had uh some uh very how do you say disencouraging uh A B tests. I also won cover, I tested it nine or ten times, ten A-B tests that first of all costs money, and I was constantly losing against a competitor. I was convinced it's a very basic cover, I can I can do better. I thought mine were much better, but I had to find out the hard way that this cover, even though it's super simple, super basic, just one color background, one illustration, and the title, but through the survey results, I then found out what do people love about this cover? It was actually the illustration. I switched up my illustration over and over again until I finally hit the spot of the target audience. I think one tip that is also super useful there when it comes to like uh applying the feedback that you get from the from the surveys is that you somehow save the feedback and then you can always use an AI. I think the DPE AI coach is super good at this because it's trained on barricade's cover knowledge, but you can theoretically do it with any large language model or AI. Take your feedback that you've gathered to the surveys, combine it with the competitor images, your book cover, give it to AI, let it give you suggestions on how you could implement the feedback into your own cover, and that can really speed up the process of getting to the perfect cover for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the next point is comparing AI versus designer covers, those professional freelance designers creating a cover compared to AI covers that one can do him or herself.
SPEAKER_00In my opinion, nowadays, even as a professional designer who sells the services, you should always use AI in the creative process, at least in the in the draft process, and then you can go ahead and refine it yourself. If you're just a person who creates book covers or who wants to create a book cover by themselves, I think the do-it-yourself AI approach with the right workflow, of course, or the right strategy behind it, has a lot of it's not just um prompt create a book cover for this niche. It's also not just go to JetGPT and ask, create me a prompt to create a book cover for that niche. It's much more complex to get to a really good AI book cover than just this two-step process. I think as a non-design person, it's already possible to get very high paid design freelancer results. Kind of bad wording here, but I think you can by yourself create a very good book cover that would have otherwise costed you a lot of money from a designer with the right processes, of course.
SPEAKER_01If you look for freelancers, really good covers start at $100. They are like unicorns that you can find and they make for $20 a really good cover, but they are rare and it's not really something you can predict. It's just luck if you find someone like this. And even then, they maybe it was a one-shot, it was one cover, and all the other covers are bad after that. So that's an issue. But if you then want to pay, also some designers for $100 don't really deliver great, great covers. Also, for $100, you need to test at least five to ten people to find one that can consistently produce good covers for $100-150 per cover. And then the most expensive what I paid for cover was 400 euros. That's I don't know, 450 dollars for one book cover. And it was a great cover, but it's expensive. And I do I think 95 of all of my covers I do myself with AI, and then maybe edit it in Canva a little bit. Now, since I have visuals by Publishflow, which we'll also show later, I can edit it inside the software where I also generated it, so don't even need to export it into Canva and edit there. I still can do that, but it's not necessary for most covers. AI can create if you spend an hour or two in an AI tool like visuals. Often you have a cover that's high-end design level.
SPEAKER_00100%. Also, one thing, also, it's it goes well in combination with the visuals per publish flow thing. But what I always recommend people is that you at least create a first draft of the book cover and then hire a designer to like finalize it. Because my thought is that the publisher himself, he knows the market situation the best, already identified what the competitor gap is, and it's very hard to convey this to a freelancer if you do not yet have the fixed or concrete idea yet. The freelancer most likely doesn't do the market analysis first and doesn't have your vision, and it will very likely not be as on point as if you would have created a first draft. And if you already have the vision and just give it to your designer via text, you might as well just spend the extra half an hour or maximum two hours. I think for two hours you already have a finalized cover, but you might go the extra mile and create the draft and create multiple variations.
SPEAKER_01And then often you see that the draft is so crazy good with the right AI that you can just use that as the book cover for the testing. Then maybe if you want wins the test, you can do small refinements and then publish it. So in most cases, with all the people I'm talking, most of them switch to an AI-centered cover creation instead of designers.
SPEAKER_00And where I wanted to make the connection to Publish Flow with this is that Publish Flow actually does this market analysis, finding the visual gap. It does it in the background. So even if you don't have the clear vision yet, Publish Flow kind of does that process for you and or helps you with finding that, and then you can approve that, and then it will give you variations based on that. So it's always aware what the market situation for your specific niche looks like. I think that is super crucial also when it comes to creating the covers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Then next we want to share some covers with you, explain why they are good selling covers and how to create them for yourself. Okay, so here we now can see I think it's seven different covers created by Publishflow, and we will now show you inside the tool Publishflow, which we use to create our covers, how you can do that yourself. It starts here in the visuals tool. You can select the style and mood first. I personally always let the eye decide.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, myself too. I also built the built the app like this because I think it in most cases makes the most sense to let AI decide. As I mentioned previously, it knows the market situation. I think it's it's the smartest to let AI decide there. Also, when you let the AI decide, it gives you still multiple style variations which it thinks it uh is beneficial for your cover. Yeah so fixing yourself to one specific style, in my opinion, can be counterproductive, but it can also, if you already have the vision in mind and want it to be exactly like the vision, then you also have the tools to do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, also before the visual step, if you have created the book inside Publish Flow, for those of you who don't know, with Publish Flow is mainly a book writing and publishing software, you can write entire books in it. And if you've created the book before that inside Publish Flow, Visuals has the entire context of the book and especially all the research it has done during the book creation process. So it knows the target audience really, really well. So if you let it decide, it's normally extremely competent. Then you can, of course, select the right cover size. For example, now start with a standard paperback and later make it into a hardcover after you created it as the paperback. So we'll always recommend to use one of the normal standard paperback designs. It's also for ebooks, so standard paperback also is a normal e-book design, and you can later, with one click, change it into an audiobook and into the hardcover version. So that's really convenient. Then the subtitle strategy, Tim mentioned that for some books you want to include the full subtitle on the cover, but for other books you want it to be spread throughout the cover in sticker or batches, so it completely depends on your niche, and you can then choose what you think makes the most sense, and you can now also generate suggestions so the AI can trade them for you, and you can add multiple of them to have different badges.
SPEAKER_00Those suggestions they get generated based on your book's subtitle or positioning in general. Yeah, and there it also knows the market gaps, so it recommends you stickers or catchphrases on the on the cover that really hit the target audiences.
SPEAKER_01Then you can select characters in vision. So one important thing is you can tell it, no, I want no characters, so no silhouettes, no people, no illustrations of people, or you can click on include characters and it will then give you concepts that include rather real humans or illustrated humans or silhouettes and stuff like that. And if you have a brand, you can upload reference characters. For example, if you have always the same dog character or the same human character or recurring theme, some recurring person or character, you can upload an image of this character, and then Publish Law will use that on the new cover variations that you will create inside visuals.
SPEAKER_00I think that's also something we might have forgot to mention before. Um I do this for one brand where there's the same cover over and over again, and this kind of plays into the branding aspect. If people like one book of the series, they will recognize your book and be more interested in your book by recognizing the character. Yeah. And I think that doesn't only apply to characters, while Publishflow of course gives you the chance to do it for characters, but it also applies to the general branding style for books.
SPEAKER_01The font, the color, the illustrations on it. You can have other elements that are reoccurring throughout your brand, and that also makes an important difference. You can upload them here as a style reference, you can upload covers from your brand and tell it as context: this is a cover from my brand. I wanted the new book to have a similar, the same branding style. Yeah, exactly. And then for your vision, you can write everything anything you want. You can make three examples, for example, for this this one with the the old people US road trip. Now it's fading away. Here it comes again. This US road trip for seniors. Uh the prompt I used for this one was just that I told it one, two seniors, a senior couple smiling and sitting in a car driving. That was the vision I gave it. It was like one sentence. That was one of the first few covers that were proposed by Publishflow. Then you can click on generate covers and then you get the first cover results. Now, here in the beginning, all of these covers aren't really publishable. None of those are really liked, so I let it create more variants. I clicked on five more variants, then I selected combine favorites just because I thought, okay, this, this, and this one, they are okay. I didn't like these two, but these three I thought, okay, they are baseline, it's a good start. And then I just told it make it more modern and more colorful. That was the prompt I used, and based on that, and some Selecting these three covers, I clicked on generate five more variants, and then I got these five variants. And they look way better than the other ones. Of course, they're also way more colorful because I prompted that. But especially these two, I like a lot. This one, I thought, okay, wow, it looks really professional, the background, all the elements, it looks really good. But the heart as an organ seems a little bit off. So I thought, what if this would look like a real heart? And that's what I did. I clicked on more variants, on remix a favorite, selected this one, and then I only told it to change the organ heart into a classical heart shape. Then I clicked on generate five remixed variations, and then I got these five covers, and all of them look really good. Every single one of them, but especially this one is just a standout. As you have just seen, it took me maybe five minutes to do that, or maybe ten to get to a cover that looks like this, and that has high-end designer quality. Of course, it's not perfect, you can now re edit it and refine it until it's perfect, but that's just the pure AI output after three steps.
SPEAKER_00So, and I think one learning that we that we get from this process, which I've also before Publish Flow been doing manually, which was a little bit of a headache though, to do it outside of Publishflow is to create a lot of variations. If you like some variations, combine variations. If you like a specific variation, remix based on that variation, and then eventually you will come to the cover you you envisioned or that you that you like. First five variations that come out, oftentimes there is like already one cover that really stands out and has a lot of potential.
SPEAKER_01And if you spend 15 minutes here, you often get a really good cover like me. And if you spend an hour here, you most likely get an amazing cover. And now, for example, if it says a text error or some element swirly thing, if you don't like that for some reason, you could now click on the Magic Studio, and now inside the Magic Studio you have a lot of tools and you can use them to change things. If it has a text error, there's an automatic algorithm behind it, just need to click on fix text errors, just click the button, and every text error the AI may have produced will just be fixed. That's very effective. You can change the text style, so different fonts, you can change the illustration. For example, I could now tell it make the hard shape back into a hard organ. Wouldn't be productive, but that's what this tool is able to do. You can add a sticker, you can then also move the sticker around. So it creates a sticker, you can tell it what style the sticker should have, what should be written on the sticker. You can also give a custom input, and then you can have the sticker and can move it around and place it where you want it to be, and also make it smaller and bigger. Um, you can reposition the text, you can adjust the colors if you want that, and you can remove elements. For example, you can remove the flowers or the butterflies. Don't know why you would want to do that because I like the butterflies, but you could do that, and then you can do free edits, and free edit is just you can tell it everything you want, and it will then implement that as good as it can. So you can yeah, tell it, place the heart at the bottom and the subtitle above, and it will then restructure the entire cover based on your your edits. Then you can finalize the cover, and then what's really cool with Publish Flow, you can now immediately also go to the back cover generator and create the perfect back cover. So we have now this beautiful front cover. You can download it now for the ebook version, for example, or as the front cover for a paperback. But if you want to publish a paperback on Amazon, you also need to spine at the back cover, and you can now click on create back cover, choose a back cover style. So here is headline, text, and three benefits, here's headline, text, and about the author, here's a big text, and here's again headline, text with bullet points and text. And you can choose whichever style, it's just a template, it's not how it will look, but it's that structure that it will then use it as a template. You can tell it all the page numbers so it knows how big the cover in the end is, and then it generates you a few back covers. And now we have three back cover results. I think I choose that one, and then you can again click on the Magic Studio, and now you're inside the full back cover, uh the full cover view, and you have again the front cover, you have the spine in the middle, and you have newly generated back cover. And you can also edit the text, you can change it here. What's written on the spine, you can make it bigger, now it's way too big, of course, or smaller, now it's way too small, or you can choose how how big you want it to be. You can change the text color, the spine color, um, you can flip the um side where the spine text is written. So I think in Europe it's different than in America. We didn't know it in the beginning, we thought it's everywhere as in Europe, but then we know okay, American people for some reason have the spine text differently than Europeans have, so we switch that. You get recommendations which color make the most sense for the spine, and you can also look at the trim sizes and all the guidelines that also Amazon has when you look at the cover inside KDP. You of course know all of these guidelines, you can see them here, and you can with one click get the hardcover version. Now it's hardcover, now it's paperback, and you can download both and then publish paperback and hardcover on KDP.
SPEAKER_00I think this opens up a lot of doors for people. I know from other people, they got through the process of creating multiple variations, etc., but they got stuck on the process of like editing the covers. They were all like, okay, I like it, but I want this element kind of removed or this element changed. And I think what we did in Publish Row with the Magic Studio solved that problem. And the next bottleneck, the do-it-yourself cover people were stuck on, which the people who don't have the design skills, was the back cover. I think with this tool you can get an incredible quality of both front and back cover and full wraparound just by yourself. And I think everybody can do it. One woman she has been struggling, she wanted to learn Canva, she has been struggling a lot to learn Canva. And with these tools, she finally was able to create her book, even the writing, but that's another story. But her book covered from start to finish in a good quality, yeah, just by herself.
SPEAKER_01And you you have also inside published video tutorials. So this this entire tool is shown to you in step-by-step video tutorials, how you use it, um, how you can create a cover yourself, what are back practices. So that's also if you are a beginner, for example, it's really easy to get started. Okay, and yeah, that's that's what's uh how we create our covers fully with AI and optimize it with AI. And now we would, for example, if this is the final cover, we would export it and then give it to Pigfu, for example, or other survey platforms, test it, and if it loses for some reason, we would use the feedback and improve the cover. So we would go, for example, back to the cover results, we would choose this one, click on five Morarians, remix favorites, click on this one. Now we can input here the feedback. Well, the feedback we got from the cover results, from the cover surveys. Just type everything here or make like a summary and type it here, and then you get five Morarians based on your really good cover combined with the feedback of the surveys, and then you get five optimized variants, which you then can again test. Then you should normally win the cover survey or get more ratings at least, and then make a third one, and then you you may be the winner. And you can do this as often as you like until your cover is the first place in the survey, and then when you publish your book, you know, okay, at least the cover of my book is superior to all my competitors, and that's one of the biggest advantages you can have before you publish a book on Amazon.
SPEAKER_00I get oftentimes asked if I really create my covers inside Publishflow, and I really do create them inside Publishflow, maybe to give some background. Um yeah, I've talked about my cover creation processes a lot inside DPE and also on the masterminds event we host. I've given workshops there, etc. And it's really complex. And I actually built the cover tool inside Publishflow, and what I did is just I put my complex workflow into a it looks very simple to the user. It lets you select all the stuff or you let AI decide, and all the background processes that I normally do in multiple tabs and multiple AIs are integrated into this tool. And so I actually really use this tool because I would be dumped just still doing it manually if I can just do it in the in the assisted way, and it gives me still the same the same freedom I used to have when I did it manually, but it's just super simplified.
SPEAKER_01The unique thing about visuals that no other AI tool has, you don't need a prompt to decide subtitle strategy as we showed before. Characters know you can keep this field completely empty. It will create the prompts in the background for you. You don't need to tell it anything. So it's purely automized, purely optimized because it's Tim's cover creation prompts and workflow behind it to get the best cover results. And then, as I said, I optimized this first output with a sentence. So my prompts that I used were only, as I said, I selected these three and told it make it more modern and more colorful. That's not a crazy prompt, that's just a sentence where I explained it what I really thought that it should improve as plain and simple as possible, and then it gets better. I found this one, I said okay, I had the idea, make it into hard, and then I get this beautiful cover. So that's really, really fast.
SPEAKER_00What I like to do oftentimes is on the combine variations tab, combine favorites. That's also part of my process on how I used to do it. From multiple variations, I say, okay, I like part A of this cover, I like part C of this cover, I like the style of this cover, and then I just describe what I like about each cover, and then I say create five new variations based on this context. Yeah, I don't type it since I use PublishRolder, generate five new variations part, but that's how I used to do it. And uh yeah, I just like combine different aspects from different covers into the final cover.
SPEAKER_01Well, one example I like the font of this one, I like the color of this one, and I like the style of the illustration of this one. You can write it, click here, and you can get then five variants that are based on these three covers and your um opinion on those covers. So, yes, that's how we do it, how we would recommend to do it. Um, if you want to check out Publish Flow and Visuals by Publish Flow, you will find a link below this video or this podcast episode. And else um, you can also like and subscribe, of course, or follow this podcast. In the next podcast, we will talk about A content, why it's one of the most underestimated marketing materials in KDP, what are the biggest mistakes with A content and also how to create best-selling A content.
SPEAKER_00Do you have anything to add to? Just uh if you have any questions about cover creation processes or cover creation in general, feel free to drop them in the comments. If you watch this podcast on YouTube, you can also listen to our podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. We would be very happy if you could leave a follow or whatever it's called on these platforms. Probably this one you can't find on Spotify because we we're showing something on screen. But yeah, we would be very happy about any feedback. Let us know what you what you think about the podcast in general or about the covers. Very much looking forward to developing our podcast journey here. And I think a lot of interesting learnings you can get from all the episodes. You probably also can somewhere here find another uh podcast episode, and I'm sure there's something to learn for you in each and one of each one of those podcast episodes. I even learned inside the podcast episode after that. Perfect. Then thanks for being here, Tim. Thanks for having me and podcast.
SPEAKER_01Until next time. Until next time.