Episode 2 : Does True Love Exist? Relationships, Romance & Reality in Modern Times

In this episode of Too Sober For This, recovery advocate Shell Righini and comedian Iain Anderson tackle one of life’s biggest questions: does true love actually exist?

Recorded just after Valentine’s Day, and shortly after Iain announced his engagement, the conversation quickly turns into an honest, funny, and occasionally uncomfortable exploration of love, relationships, and how sobriety changes the way we think about them. 

Shell and Iain talk about the expectations we grow up with around romance, the reality of dating as adults, and how recovery forces you to confront your feelings instead of hiding from them.

They explore everything from messy past relationships and emotional unavailability to the idea that maybe real love isn’t about someone completing you; rather it’s about two people who already have their own lives choosing to build something together. 

In this episode

• Iain shares the story of how he proposed to his fiancé 
• Why Shell has become deeply cynical about the idea of true love
• How childhood expectations shape the way we approach relationships
• The difference between love, attachment, and codependency
• Why friendships can sometimes offer deeper connection than romance
• The importance of learning to like, and eventually love yourself first

Expect uncomfortable questions, strong opinions, dark humour, and plenty of laughing at things we probably shouldn’t.

Because sometimes, even in sobriety we find… we are definitely too sober for this.

NEXT EPISODE QUESTION — GET INVOLVED

Next week we’re talking about money.

So we want to hear from you: Why does talking about money feel like dirty talk?

Send us a DM on Instagram @toosoberforthispodcast or WhatsApp +44 7343 057171 with your thoughts and we might feature your opinion in the next episode of Too Sober For This.

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Shell Righini - @shell_righini  Iain Anderson - @iainanderson.comedy

Traumedy Show - https://iainandersoncomedy.com/

Listen to Shell’s podcast We Recover Loudly here on Spotify  

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello and welcome to To Sober for This, the podcast that breaks down the big life topics with your host Shell Raghini and my co-host Ian Anderson. Ian Anderson, comedian and Scottish National Treasure. So today is our first official um podcast episode because the one that we did last week was just all about me. Um but today we're actually diving into a topic, aren't we, Ian? What are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_04 0:28

We are talking about love. What's love got to do with it, Cheryl?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Indeed. And the reason that we're talking about love is because we're recording this just after Valentine's Day. Um, if you follow Ian or have, you know, any kind of I mean, I feel like everybody knows this now, maybe even if you work in Tesco's. Um Ian recently got engaged, he's probably told you, and has become a really smug little so-and-so about it. Um, and it meant that we were talking about love a lot. Obviously, as well, the song at the moment that is constantly in my head, which I was singing yesterday in preparation for this, uh, is that race song, Where the Hell is My Husband? So it feels like love is really in the air. Go on, are you gonna do it? Who's singing?

SPEAKER_03 1:15

My husband is coming. That's not that how it, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Remember what my granny says, what my granny says, what my granny said, your husband is coming.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

So it definitely feels like um that love is indeed in the air, and uh it therefore has, I don't know, for me, it's uh brought up a lot of a lot of stuff. Um that's what happens when you get sober. Um, you start feeling your feelings, and you know, a song like Where the Hell is My Husband no longer lands as a joyful little tune, but it feels a bit like a physical attack on my inability to find love and the overall failure of my life. So thank you, Ray. Um, but before we get into how crap everything is in my life, would you like to tell us about your experience of true love, Ian? Because obviously you believe in it.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

I do believe in it, or at least I've convinced my partner that I'm the one. I'm a hell of a salesman.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

I was gonna say your partner whose first language is not English.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

No, it's a language called Tagalog, which is as sexy as it sounds. Um, it's a mixture of Spanish and Klingon. Um, but uh and I actually asked him to marry me in that language. I said Pacasalanmo Ako, and uh it's the only Tagalog I can speak.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Wait, is what part of this is true? I'm so confused.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

The whole thing, though I asked Leo to marry me in his language.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

His language, he's from the Philippines, not Klingon.

SPEAKER_04 2:54

Yeah, they they speak Yeah, but the language is called Tagalog, and it sounds like if Spanish was mixed with Klingon, that's what it sounds like, Shell.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

I love it. I was like, we're really only three minutes in and we have become quite racist already.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

Well, um listen, I'm half Filipino now, but the thing is that um when I see him talking to his mum in the morning, he always calls her because it's the time difference. He'll call her a breakfast and he's like eating, he's like blah blah blah. And it's a bit like Dutch, you know how like with Dutch, like you can understand like every third word because every third word is English, right? It's a bit like that. So like the other day he was saying blah blah blah, he was saying something and he was like Bangkok for nine days, blah blah blah blah blah, and I was like, I know exactly what's going on, they're talking about me, right? So it's like um it's like uh it's a very I've been trying to learn it, but it's very difficult. So when I wanted to, I knew I wanted to ask him to marry me, and I knew I wanted to ask him in his own language, and so every day when he would go to work, I'd uh listen to it over and over again on TikTok, and I could not retain those three words. I mean I speak Spanish, but it was just like and then when I went to ask him, I got down on one knee, the speech I had planned totally left my head, everything except the Klingon. Um it was like that, and uh I asked him, yeah, and he said, Yeah, it took him a it felt like a really long time for him to say yes, but he did to go yes, uh, and that's it. Yeah, we're engaged now, we love it, we're fair, we're very happy.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

That he knows what he was saying yes to in case he thought he was saying yes to going back home to his family and finally being released. Because as always, we're still not 100% sure.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

Do you want a sandwich?

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah, is it a relationship or is it human trafficking? That fine line.

SPEAKER_04 4:53

I always do a bet. Well, if he checks my Instagram stories, he'll know we're engaged.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Imagine if he doesn't even follow you. Ouch.

SPEAKER_04 5:03

Ouch. Ouch.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

But I mean, you know, I was about to say jokes aside, which would be pretty shit considering this is a comedy post podcast, so not jokes aside. Jokes aside, just for a minute. Um, you know, love is such a a it's such a loaded question, you know, and I've been asking my friends what they think of true love because we're gonna have a little bit of audience participation on these episodes. Um no one's been able to give me a straight answer. I mean, growing up, what did you think about love? Did you think it was something that I mean, for me, again, maybe it's a female thing. Um, I obviously was assumed that I would grow up firstly to marry my own dad, which isn't as dodgy as it sounds. I believe all little girls think they're gonna marry their father.

unknown 5:46

I think.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Um, but you know, I really thought that I was gonna grow up. 28 was always my old age in my head. I thought by the time I was 28 I'd been married with children in a house. And yeah, and so yeah, that was kind of what I thought was gonna happen. Is that very much the same for you?

SPEAKER_04 6:03

Yeah, well, I didn't imagine growing up and getting married, to be honest with you, but I did. Um I mean, it's difficult, isn't it? Because like my generation was different, so we never really had examples of like gay marriage wasn't even a thing when I was younger, right? So it was something that wasn't available to me, and so there wasn't an example of it, and now there's lots of examples of it, and there's some very bad examples of it, and I think there's like you know, if you can get gay married, you can also get gay divorced, and so I remember when I was like 16, I think is when the um civil partnerships started to happen with with gay couples, um, and then everyone was really excited and they went for it, but like all other relationships, you know, they you know some of them ended in divorce and blah blah blah. And I think back then the conversation was more around our legal rights, you know, like legally we're entitled to, and I have to say, like, as someone who's now engaged, the legal part kind of plays a is a big decision maker because you you know it's about protecting our future together and making sure he's financially set if anything happens to me and all that stuff, but um, so some of it's very litigious, but I think when I was younger, like you almost I knew I was gay, young, and I didn't know what that looked like. I think older I just thought I would be someone who slept around dranking their drugs a lot, like that. My first example of kind of like gay men on television was if it was the soaps, it was always like they got caught and then they were ostracized from their community, or Queer as Folk, where the guy was turning 30, so his life was over. Yeah, so he was turning 30, his life was over, and that was him being old and the he just slept around with teenage boys all the time. It was kind of weird.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Oh, Stuart, that was his character. Stuart, what a fantastic show. I've never wanted to be a gay man more than watching that as and yeah, because what obviously we're similar age. Similar age, we're the same age. I'm trying to make out that I'm younger than you. Um, so yeah, what would we would have been, what early 20s when that was out? No, I was 14. Oh, well, I would have been the same age as you. I thought we were older than that for some reason.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

We were 14?

SPEAKER_01 8:29

What were we doing watching that? That's it was on very late, I can remember, on channel four. Um, and you're right, actually, I I hadn't thought about that in the context of this and this episode what we've discussed before, is that love for you would have felt and looked very, very different because you're right, our idea of love was growing up in that two-parent family as well. You know, there wasn't as many people that were divorced when we were young. I can remember being at school, and there'd maybe be like one or two in the whole class like you know, in the year that were from parents which were separated. There certainly wasn't any kind of diversity, there certainly wasn't same-sex parents, or if there were, they weren't talked about. And so you're right, you know, my kind of idea of that. But also, I think interestingly, potentially we're mixing up the two here, you know, marriage and love are certainly don't come hand in hand. And I mean, I have certainly no people within my own life and circle that may be married, but is it love? And in fact, that kind of also sometimes plays it as a bit of a decision maker. Do you have to be in love to get married?

SPEAKER_04 9:34

Well, I think it's certainly it's certainly well, it would certainly help, but I think I think that people's what expectations of love are versus the reality of real love, which is when you're with someone, they eventually just become your family. Like it's dirty socks, uh making sure the dogs are walked. I work late nights, he works early mornings, it becomes like very practical. And I think the thing for me with with Leo is I had a bit of a weird family growing up, like a lot of people, like not weird, it was all I knew, but the our house kind of looked like that. My dad worked night shift, my mum and dad didn't seem to really like each other, you know, but they loved each other, it was weird, and also there was a lot of drinking in our home, so it was like um I'd I'm growing up in the west of Scotland in the early 90s. We people were not mushy, you didn't tell your kids you really loved them. I never really heard that growing up. It wasn't like, Well, I love you so much, you're amazing. Like, I actually have had the same best friend all my life, and we can't really say that to each other because we grew up together and it's just not in our vocabulary. Whereas someone I've met in the last five years, I can say with quite easily that I love them to their face. So there's like a cultural thing where it was like love was tough, you know, growing up in Scotland and family was family and loyalty was everything, and I think that kind of ties into what you're saying that people get married and they stick it through. And I think there has to be a balance there because I think nowadays people are always looking for the grass greener on the other side, and if you're doing that, then you're also having that done to you. And I would say that I met Wale when I was 39, so I was a bit older and I knew myself. But if you have to ask yourself if what you want wants you, right? Because sometimes the thing that people want in a partner, that kind of partner isn't interested in what you are, you want someone who has an amazing body and really into fitness while you're sitting on the couch eating multiple baked potatoes and beans and cheese. Your lifestyles are not compatible.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Wow, I feel attacked.

SPEAKER_04 11:46

But that's me. I wrote a list before I met Leo and I said, I want someone who get who likes morning's bed early, goes to the gym because he wants to eat pizza.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Right?

SPEAKER_04 11:56

Like, I don't want I don't want to go, I go, I go to the gym because I want to have a nice, cheesy, beanie life.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Um anyone who knows um knows I have a merchandise company and that is coming to a t-shirt near you soon. I just want a cheesy beanie life. I love that. Um, yeah, that's that's so interesting. And in fact, not to try and go down an ADHD rabbit hole right now, but maybe that's where some of my manifestation, you know, when you talk about love and we talk about manifesting that right person and looking for that soulmate and all of that. And, you know, like I alluded to in the introduction, I'm quite cynical and quite bitter about the whole idea of true love because I haven't ever had it, I've never had I thought I was in love, and turns out I was just a codependent mess, repeating patterns of rejection with that. Um, and therefore but then if I have constantly been manifesting and looking for something that is not aligned with my true self, then it's not that love doesn't exist, it's just that for me I've never looked for, like you say, the right kind of love. And it it's interesting because that's when you kind of go into that whole kind of other half partnership, you know, the pairing, you know, the walking around and looking for your other half. And I did think this morning while I was drying my hair, having these little moments of um absolute brilliance, that in a way, when I was walking around in the world looking for my other half, I was only showing up as half a person, you know, I didn't put in the work to make sure that that I was that I was looking for somebody to cure so much that was wrong with my life that I was half living. And in fact, part of the journey of recovery, whether that's from you know, alcohol, drugs like you or me, or you know, love addiction or codependence or you know, whatever it is, you know, or just to be fair, I don't think any of you have to go through as dark a times as you and I did to get to our age, if you especially if you are still single, uh, but to still be questioned to be kind of having these big questions about well, what is love and what does love have to do with my life? Um and actually it's only now that I feel maybe three quarters of a person, or maybe maybe six-eighths of a person, that maybe I'm start finally getting towards a place where I can receive a love that is going to match where I'm match where I'm at. Do you know what I mean? I've really rambled there.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

I know I I hear what you're saying, but actually, like I so I dated really poorly in the first. Um I'm very conscious of the fact that those poor decision makers may be listening, uh, all 75 of them in Colombia.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

I was gonna say we don't have that many listeners, so please don't isolate them.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

I won't isolate them, yeah, but like I um all the Juans, you know, that I think one of the guys I used to date is coming to the show tonight, so I'm on very good terms with them all. So Columbia, watch out. But I'd I dated people who were like emotionally unavailable, and but so was I, right? So what has been great about when people used to always say you'll know when you know, and it used to really annoy me when people said that. But then when I met Leo, I knew, and the thing is, my life would be fine without him, it's just better with a minute. My life was already good, like I didn't need anyone to complete me. Um, I was in a really good place in life. Things I was giving up my flak, quit my job, becoming a comedian. Life was very exciting, and actually, I met him at the wrong time because I didn't have time to meet him, and somehow we've been together nearly two years, you know. So it's like it is it does feel like magic, you know. And I think I'm going away on a trip for work um for quite an extended period of time, on and off for the next few months, and he'll be with me sometimes, and never once when we're apart, do I stress about it? And I've had boyfriends where they lived in the same city as me, and if I never saw them in 24 hours, I couldn't sleep. So, like, I don't want anyone to be that kind of who wants to live like that, you know. And what what I found is maybe a long form answer your question, I wasn't really sure what love was, but uh over the years I've found out what it isn't, and that's equally as important.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

There's a little that's an Instagrammable mic drop moment. Um, love that. Another t-shirt. Um yeah, and it's interesting. I was talking um to a couple of people this morning about exactly that, like, you know, I feel like therefore maybe that Hollywood true love, finding your one person, all of that isn't real. But then, you know, my I've got I've got two cousins. I've got more than two cousins. I've got cousins, um, they've been together since they were in their early 20s, they've been together literally like 20 years. When you meet these guys, the I just made it sound like my cousins are dating. My cousin is dating another woman who is not blood related. Um, when you meet them, you believe in true love because you feel like they are like, you know, the the paper dolls that hurt hold hands, you feel that they were cut from a string of paper dolls, and not in a disgusting way. And the reason that, and obviously, again, you only ever see the good, I never see them argue and all of that, but because they really complement each other's highs and lows, you know, like when one of them is stressed, the other one isn't, and vice versa, and they just and it's that it's that complementary, it's that salt and vinegar, you know, that cheese and onion. It's just you know, one without the other just doesn't is is fine, but together, oh it's like cheese and beans, singular beans, but together together, what a product, and I feel I feel like I feel like that with Leo.

SPEAKER_04 18:03

I don't think I was a half looking to be a whole, like I think I like I I was already. In fact, I was just before I met him, I'd said to my really good friend, I was in London at the time, and I'd said to her, you know, I'm taking my show to the Edinburgh Festival, I feel my life's about to change, and I just think romantic love isn't for me. And a week later I met Leo. Love that, and as soon as I met him, I just knew maybe I didn't know I was going to get married or whatever, but I knew as soon as I met him my life was about to change. It was the weirdest feeling.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

And it's almost like it's it comes at the most inconvenient time in a way, because you're like, oh hang on a minute.

SPEAKER_04 18:43

Inconvenient, yeah. And also, I think the thing I'd say with him is like we always made the agreement. We have two rules in our relationship. We're not really big arguers because I'm an arguer, he's not. So at that point, I'm just a bully, so I choose to not bully my fiance again.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Back back back to the whole, does he know what he suggests to?

SPEAKER_04 19:05

But yeah, yeah, so Leo goes very quiet, he's very conflict averse, and um, I love, I love, I'm very loud, I'm an artist, and we have different personalities, but we're the same person basically, and so we've never gone to bed on a disagreement, like we don't we don't go to sleep annoying each other, and the one rule we had very early in our relationship is no matter what, we must never threaten to leave. And that that because one that once that's said is done.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Yeah, it's that threat to security is is is I think that's really I've never heard anyone say that they have that in their relationship, but now but when you've put that out, yeah, it's a little bit like that giving someone the silent treatment is you know, basically telling them that you're not important and you don't exist, and you know, it's something the same like that just to threaten that security feels like a very cruel thing to do. And once there's cruelty in a relationship or a friendship, it you know, it's it's done. And I mean, talking about friends, um we um did ask people to send in some of their opinions on true love, and because this is our first episode and currently we uh we have 43 followers um on Instagram, we have to bully our friends into sending in these comments. Um, so do you want to share what your friend had to say first?

SPEAKER_04 20:31

I did. This is just a random woman I pulled up in Tesco. No, I'm only kidding.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

After you told her that you got engaged to this guy.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

Well, she Yeah, what's really funny is I sent the Instagram link saying what we were looking for to people, and everyone without clicking on the link went, can't wait to listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

And I was like, No, I saw exactly the same. I was like, Do we not have friends who can read?

SPEAKER_04 20:55

No, their eyes are full of love hearts, they just exactly the same.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

I was like, guys, it's there's a direct call to action.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

Yeah, it says we need your we need your help.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

It literally says that on the graphic.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Yeah. So anyway, okay, so this is from an anonymous lady says, I'm realizing lately that having really good friends both raises the bar and lowers the need for romantic relationships. Oh, yeah. I hold on to some hope that there's a lasting partnership, romantic love in there for all of us, but think it may come at different times, not necessarily into the end of life, even though I'd like to grow old with someone for sure. I think in dating though, people can be so afraid to hurt someone else's feelings by saying, You're actually not for me, that they drag it out. Say, I'm just not ready for a relationship, or don't say anything at all, and that's a trend I want to break. Now I'll point out that this is from a female friend of mine who's in her twenties and um Was in a long-term relationship from when she was very young until quite recently, of about eight years, and so, like, is experiencing dating in a way that she'd never had before because she now she's an adult, right? She's an adult woman, so and I really love all of that she said because I do think one of the things I'd realized about myself when I was having bad romantic relationships is I have great friendships, and so I know I can do relationships.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

That's interesting. That's such an interesting way. You're right, because I think it's very easy for us to think that we are at fault, we are broken. I think that's also sometimes a narrative, even in the movies and stuff like that. You know, it's like, oh, he's just not into you, there's something about you. And I've literally, I mean, I've had uh I think three, let's say, uh thing relationships, something that I can call a relationship, something that's beyond, you know, just casual. And and and of those three, every single one of them ended with them breaking up with me because um yeah, they just they it was just always very hurtful. There's lots of cheating, I've been cheated on a lot, all of that kind of stuff. And like, you know, for me, I kind of feel like when I was younger, I was so desperate to just be the same as everybody and therefore have that validation. Because for me, and still to this day, in fairness, to be lovable or to be accepted as to be, yeah, to be lovable, to be accepted to, therefore, be loved by a guy. Um I'm heterosexual, so by a man, feels like success is the word that's coming to my brain. But what I never realized, and therefore when I wasn't able to do it and I haven't had a successful relationship, um, I should have done the Benny Ears on relationship to be honest, because they weren't really relationships. But yeah, um I feel like a failure. But I've got great friends, and I've treated some of my friends appallingly because when I was in active addiction, they I barely spent any time with them, you know. And I've I'm lucky enough, I've got friends from when I was like seven, eight years old. I've got friends that have known me since I was 16, and and the great thing is that not a single one of those friends ever liked my partners ever, they knew. Um, but and and if anything, because since coming into recovery, those friendships that I managed to maintain, some of them kind of evolved, some of them completely didn't change. I've apologized to quite a lot of them as well, I've made my amends, and then I've got these new friendships, and I never used to have female friendships. I always really struggled with female friendships in a way that I didn't struggle with men, because I think I can, as a girl, I think for me anyway, I could I can manipulate boys. Boys are silly, boys are a bit silly and they're much easier to manipulate, and then they're much easier to flirt and kind of, whereas women were wise to it. But now I've got these incredible female relationships. You were saying about love. I've got a friend who's gone traveling today for six weeks, you know, and we've got a group that she's messaging, I love you guys, I'm gonna miss you. And I'm saying, Oh, we love you too. You have go and have the best experience of your life, and we mean that. That is what will look we mean that love word. So I really like what you said that you know, when you might think that you're a failure at love, if you've got friendships, then you're not, you know, you can do it. You've just I think I've just always been searching for something in a relationship which I've never searched in a friendship for, which is that you know, validate, you know, I've always been searching for that. Maybe yeah, I'm searching for that other half, then I need to stop doing that.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

Or like, or be your own other half, which sounds really ridiculous. But when I, you know, when I was looking at, we've been very lucky that we've hit rock bottom, you know, and something about going through the ringer um of addiction makes you sometimes just take stock and be like, Do you know what, Ian? Uh you've got a you know, I remember I was brokenhearted again, and uh someone saying to me, You've got everything you said you wanted and more when you came into recovery. You've got a great job, a nice place to live. Um you've you know, you've got amazing friends, you're a better person, and it's still not good enough. And it was I realized that I was about three years clean at the time, and I was like, gosh, my like the disease of more was still very active, and I was still like needed something on the outside to fix the inside. And just before I met Leo, I had said to my friend, I've got amazing friends, a great life. Like, look at that. Look, why can't I? I'm so happy with everything I have, and I really like myself, like, not in a kind of like manifest, not as in like I don't really mean it, I'm saying it out loud to convince myself. I got up this in the morning and give myself one of these every day in the mirror. Like, I I said the other day in a meeting, I said, I validated myself this morning and everybody else can fuck off, right? And that's the thing, like I'm nearly nine years clean, right? And I've had a couple of life changes in recovery, some of them good, some of them bad. I've been depressed in recovery, I've been suicidal in recovery at five years clean. But if I look back in my own life, I can find a thousand reasons why I'm a terrible person, and a thousand reasons why I'm a good person, and I get to choose what reasons I tune into, and every day I choose to believe my own good press because and it and by doing that I've really learned, and it has been learning to love myself by saying things like yes to things like this. Do you want to be on my podcast? Do you want to be, do you want to do a podcast? I used to feel so worthless that I I remember when I first got clean, I was like, do a basic job, don't be seen, just stay out of trouble, right? Yeah, now I hope to get into trouble because I'll probably learn from it.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah. Oh, I love all of that. That's so that's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:26

Take big swings, you know. Take big swings, like you know, and what's really interesting is you probably had more get up and go in your first that fearlessness that comes with the first year of recovery where you're like, let's do it, let's start a podcast. Like, as life gets a bit normal, you start to get you have things to lose, you know what I mean? Um, but that's I didn't get clean to sit in a room and not have my heart broken and not be disappointed. The process of all of that mistake making and data collection brings you to better jobs, better love lives, better friendships, you know, better recovery.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Yeah. And that, and again, I think that's that whole kind of like not looking for like true love existing. I think we evolve in what it means, and you know, that whole self-love, and you know, what does self-love mean? And you know, the word would make me vomit.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

Well, I'm too British, too British for this. I mean, I just we don't have it, it's too American.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

It is, but then I was thinking it was only yesterday, and then I'm I'm gonna share what one of my friends sent in actually because it really ties to this. But I was thinking only yesterday, like I woke up in the morning and like I took my supplements and I I made my you know protein-rich breakfast because I'm of an age where if I don't eat protein, apparently I puff disappear into a puff of smoke, I believe is what happens. And um, and yeah, literally. And honestly, I need to speak to proteins PR because they are fucking doing well. It's whoever used to work with kale, obviously.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

Obviously, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

And probably the same person who worked with cauliflower, because now fucking cauliflower is in everything. Anyway, side note. Um, I was taking my supplements, you know, I was flossing my teeth. Um, I've got this whole little routine in the morning, you know, and doing my my AA stuff. And, you know, I put on clean clothes, you know, my clothes were clean and I smelt my clothes and they smelt clean. And like just I've recently got a tumble dryer, so I'm a bit obsessed with smelling my clothes. They smell very different when you tumble dry. Yeah, that'll be the bones. Well in her life. Right. That'll be the bones. I know literally, honestly, I'm such an old person anyway. Um, and it's those actions, and it's not about that. That for me is it's that's that's that worth. And I don't get up in the morning, and maybe in the beginning, I was like, oh fuck's sake, I've got to take these supplements because Instagram told me to, and I've got to do the protein because Instagram told me to, and basically, you know, now it's like, you know, I do them because of worth. And I think when you don't have self-worth, I've never had self-worth. I can say that with absolute certainty that from as long as I can remember, I very much didn't have any self-worth. And you know, being late diagnosed, neuro neurodivergent, I can't even say that, definitely can't spell it, neurodivergent. Um, you know, we find out that there's reasons why we've got no self-worth because we, you know, and we won't we're gonna have an episode on neurodivergence, so I shan't go into it like now. Doesn't mean that, you know, bad childhood, bad parenting, it's it's something else. Just a side note. Um, so yeah, I've always felt worthless and wrong, and it's a really interesting to therefore have these moments of clarity when you realize that, and therefore, maybe that self-love is becoming a part of my daily routine, and I quite love that. My friend Um Fran, who is wonderful, and she's actually in some of these photos behind me, she said I was about to try and do it in Fran's accent, which is ironic because she's just got the same accent as me. Um I don't know why.

SPEAKER_04 32:07

I was about to be like, gotta realize that you I do that with Scottish people all the time. I was like, and so this guy from Glasgow was like, you, you're mad, and everyone's like, Why? Why?

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Fran's gonna listen to this and be like, I don't sound like that, but I'll give it a go. Uh, gotta realize that you personally are the love of your life. She doesn't talk like this. Um, in sobriety, I've been able to find myself to love myself fully and know that's where the work is, and that God, the universe, will bring in the right people, the right person. And then she says, in bullet points, so this is why I'm gonna do it this way, almost like a rap, date yourself, black yourself, speak kindly and lovingly to yourself, have sex with yourself, no more playing small or nice girl. Raw. And then she's done three fire emojis, which I'm not too sure how to vocalize. Um, and then she says, I think we can build true deep love with people if it's romantic or friendship, but we are the ones we are we hang on, let's try that again. But we are the ones we were waiting for. That's it. We were the ones that we were waiting for.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

I love that. Like before I started doing some self-hypnosis at the start of 2024, and one of the things was about self-love, and it really worked. And I honestly, and I sometimes when I say this out loud, my the old Scottish voice in my head is like, Who do you think you are? Yeah, bobag, like is my mum with my dad on back in vocals. Um, but there's a voice I I will I know no matter what, I will not let myself down. And I think that was the big change for me was I'd been choosing and I was choosing people that were not suitable for me. It didn't mean they were bad people together. We were not good. And a friend of mine says, What are you gonna do? One of my exes, she's like, What are you gonna do if he turns up at your door? I was like, I need to trust that I will walk away, and that's the work. Like, I if the first time I went on a date with Leo, it was a risk. I mean, if I you know, I didn't what if he turned out to not be what he was, what what he turned out to be? Was I gonna be like stood there like a hostage? No, I trusted myself that if they're not right for me, I'll walk away. And being able to put yourself at the centre of your own life sounds selfish, but like we hear all the time, you can't pour from an empty cup by looking after yourself first and foremost and loving yourself, everyone gets a better version of me.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

That's a hundred percent, and I think that actually it's taken until now, 2026, and if anyone is listening who is male and single, um to realise that I can walk away from something that's not right because until now, and actually I've had a lot of fear around relationships, and I've actively not dated um around because of that fear, because I could not trust myself to walk away from something that wasn't suiting me because I would be do what I've done in the past, which is absolutely anything and everything to change who I am, to make that person accept me. And there was an Instagram meme the other day that I shared, which I just absolutely loved, and it said something along the lines of like, if I've ever fancied you or dated you, um, you've probably got some work to do on yourself because it's so true. I was only ever something like that, because I've only ever dated absolute narcissists. Um, and you know, I've I love what you said about, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean people are bad people, they're just the wrong person. I've dated some bad people. I've dated some pretty awful people because I think it's a little bit like um a moth to a flame or something. I think that there are people in this world that look out for others to take advantage and I not taking myself out of the equation, and therefore I not that I behave perfectly at all. I take blame and again, you know, we take our responsibility, but I've dated some really bad people because I think that's what I was attracting. And I guess maybe there's a little bit of a fear which has just actually come into my brain that now that I know worth and therefore I don't want to attract that type of person, what if I then don't attract anybody?

SPEAKER_04 36:30

Well, that's not true. You you know, like you I met like a couple of really nice guys during recovery, and I was bored of them after about 10 seconds, and now I'm with someone who's lovely, but he would have bored me too a few years ago. Which I always say that I I um when I talk about a couple of my ex-boyfriends from when I was in active addiction, I was like, I was their rock bottom. I was like my very first boyfriend, Craig.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

That has so many that has so many meanings considering that you are a homosexual.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

I know I've got IBS though, so it's a very rocky bottom indeed. But uh I know but um my very first boyfriend Craig, um him and I are still friends. I met him when I was 18 and he lives in Portugal now. He has a Filipino husband, ironically, and they've been together years like 15 years. But um, like I always say like to his husband, I was like, if it if I wasn't so bad, you would never have gotten. I mean, it's like yeah, but like I I was I was an absolute tear away, but like I was thinking about when you were talking about friendships, like Craig was my best friend when we were together, like I loved, I still love him, right? But like we met, and I was like, This is the guy, he was my first ever boyfriend, and we've been able to stay, we didn't see each other for a number of years, and then we came back into each other's lives, and then I ended up getting sobered. And what's happened? But there must have been something in me at 18 that was real that never went away for people to come back to because I've had the same best friend since I was four years old, so I think there's something that like life gets lifey and it takes things away from you, but who you really are on the inside, when people really love that person, it's very hard for them to not be in your life when you change. And I think I thought when I got clean, I wouldn't find a boyfriend, I wouldn't, you know, like even after I got clean, I was like, Oh, if I hand it over to my higher power, God will pick me a man. Um, well, I wasn't doing a very good job.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Joan Crawford would never do that to you, Joan Rivers. Sorry, Joan Rivers, Joan Crawford is still alive.

SPEAKER_04 38:52

No, she could be dead. Uh, who knows? Um, and I don't pray to her, but I think it's that thing where like the universe kind of gives you what you are, not what you want. And when I've dated the wrong people, I've also been the wrong person.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

You know, oh my god, you were just dropping t-shirt slogans like no one's fucking business. The universe gives you what you are, not what you want. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:22

And I'll tell you, like, that's worked, that's worked in all areas of my life. I you I act like the person I want to be. Yeah, it's like when you first get clean and they're like get self-esteem through esteemable acts. You're like, I don't want to help, but I'll pick up the broom, I'll sweep the meeting room, I'll hand out the book, and you mutter under your breath, and then six months in, you can't wait to get to the meeting and welcome everybody. You just are over the moon to do service, right? And it's been like that everywhere in my life. I just act like the person I want to be, and I and and I try and be the person I want to be friends with. I want a good friend, so I try and be a good friend. And if you're someone who's constantly taking from life, yeah, taking from your partner, you know, me and Wale are very opposite. He's very domesticated, cleans, I should say I'm packing my own suitcase today, like looks after our home, does an amazing job. He looks after since he came into my life, he brushes my dog's teeth. I mean, he does everything, right? But I book the restaurants, organise the trips. I'm the adventurous one, right? And together we really, really work. Do you mean? But what I what I always am is I'm so grateful for everything he is in our relationship, and he's also grateful for me. We can't, you know, be good at everything. And sure, he'd probably love me to be more tidy, but it's not a hill he wants to die on. And so you know, I'm honest with him, I'm consistent with him, I do the things I say I'm going to do. Consistently disappointing him, leaving him a pile of laundry to do as soon as I come back from tour. I'm like, well, you I've left you a present in that suitcase. It's 20 pairs of dirty pants. But like, I try and I try and be the friend that shows up for someone when they're going through something when I've got the capacity to. I'm not the person who's always having problems. And if you're someone who's always having problems, you're not going to be able to keep pals.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, no, I love that. Just as a side note, your relationship sounds really imbalanced, and I feel for him. You get to put restaurants and he has to do the ironing. I mean, just literally. I'm luckily Leo and I are meeting in person in a few weeks, and I'm gonna take him aside and I'm just gonna say to him, Are you safe?

SPEAKER_04 41:42

He is be Do you know what's so funny, right? So on his birthday, not there the year before, someone bought like a voucher for a hotel visit, and the first thing he did was hand it to me and says, Can you just deal with that? Now, I book all the trips, I book all the flights, and to be fair, a lot of his travel is on Ian Anderson comedy productions, so he's very grateful. But um, we worked really well together, we travel well together. He can't he he knows just before a show to just leave me alone, he can't be bothered with my shit. But he was going to the Philippines last year for his 40th, and I was in London with you, and I didn't realize until he actually got to the to the um Philippines. He said, Oh yeah, my travel agent. He said something about a travel agent, and I said, A travel agent? He said, Yeah, I used a travel agent to book my flight. I was like, in what decade? Like 1989, he really can't, right? And it's a really good example in a relationship. I could get really annoyed with him, roll my eyes, and go, Why can't you just book flights for yourself? He just can't, like, ever since we met, he cannot, he's not good at organizing restaurants. Even on my birthday, I got really angry on my birthday at him. The one time I was really upset with him. He never really organized something for my birthday, like in terms of like he says, Oh, our friend's asking if you have plans on your birthday. Have you booked anything to me, right? And then I realized that's literally my whole job in the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean, you've done very well, very well. Good things happen to bad people. Well, um good things happen to bad people.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

I mean, you wait. He said, I said, we're gonna have three weddings: Glasgow, Barcelona, the Philippines, and I'll turn up to at least one of them. Such a dick.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Um, I have to read this last comment um before we finish up. This is from my good friend Sia, who's also in one of these pictures back here somewhere. And she says, Um, I think we have lots of loves throughout life, and all of them are real. They cater to what we most value and desire at the stage of life we're in, which is very much like what you were saying. The qualities and people we find the most nurturing and attractive based on our understanding and needs at That point, and if people have similar goals, directions, needs, they will always be able to understand and nurture each other. And if circumstances change, then love doesn't feel the same. There's gratitude and loyalty, but ultimately no longer that nourishment. And then she says, I agree with you, Fran. You need to be your own biggest love. I don't believe that there's just one though, and I think we can have multiple loves that are definitely still feel real. Which I just think so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

You know, it's exactly like what we were saying. Also, side note, uh, recovered alcoholics are so fucking eloquent.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

Oh, yeah, I mean, or was it AI? But I think that like but I see. Um, but I think that um so when I got when I was in 2020, right? A friend of mine who's in recovery, she's been in recovery a long time. She's in her 70s now. She's my adopted mother, and I'm her adopted son, and I was looking after their dog, and she says, Oh honey, I was 42 when I met my partner, well, her husband, Numa. Um, and I said, That is so depressing, right? But then, but they're best pals, and I think that's the thing. Like, for I think my idea of what I thought love was has really changed. Like, he's my best mate, like, he's the person I love hanging out with, we love being at home together. Our our life is very boring on paper, and that's what makes it, and you know, yourself as a woman in recovery, like we have people in recovery have such an appreciation for the mundane because their life was so chaotic before clean sheets, clean knickers, being able to buy food all month.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Like literally, I food perfectly I've had the same fucking dinner for four nights, and it still excites me because I made it from scratch. A little bit bored of it now, but yeah, it's shit like that.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

It's just stuff like that, just like being, and I think that bringing I love what you're what Sia said, like you know, if my relationship was with Leo, for example, was to end, and no, I'll I'll be okay, I'll be sad, right? But I'll be alright, I'm not gonna die, and that's the thing when people have I can't live without you, love you're codependent. That's what's happened. You're you're not okay on your own. And I really think on the flip side of that, sometimes I think we can be so single we're really defensive of letting anyone in. And I would my I would absolutely recommend getting your heart broken, take chances, take risks on yourself. Uh, you know, it's like going for a promotion, not getting the job. What you're going to do, quit the company altogether. Like you have to keep pushing forward, and every experience will teach you what you want and what you don't want, and and yeah, and you will learn to really fucking love yourself.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

And also know that if you do and get your heart broken on all of that, the most beautiful thing is that you've got these soft places to land when it happens. You've got those friendships, you know. And and I think that's another thing I think that, you know, just to wrap this up, that I'm taking away from this is that you know, true love might come into my life, it might not, but I've already got the greatest love of of all. Oh my god, there's another song. The great no, it's not the greatest love of all, because I've got the most incredible friends and and I've got a family that believes in me and you know is mostly proud of me now. Um, and you know, and I've got the and I've got family members who feel like friends, which I think is also really important that when you can forge those friendships with your with family members, and you know, the way that you've just described your relationship with Leo in fairness is what I have with Milo, who is my dog. And you know, is he a cock blocker? Maybe. Um, but you know, without doing another hour's worth of podcasting, you know, Milo taught me has is the first person, he's really not personally who taught me unconditional love. He is the first and only example. Um, and I don't say this to come down on anybody in a negative, but he is that first thing that could unconditionally love me. Because I think even in friendships and in family, we the word unconditional is is very kind of it's used, but is it immense? Because I do think there's always a slight condition, but for him, and it well, he maybe he's got conditions, but they're so easy to fulfill, you know. It's like let him sleep in the bed, which happens eventually, and you know Yeah, I wish we always let me sleep in the bed. Absolutely not, maybe after marriage, but like that I think was been one of the greatest gifts is having an animal in my life to show me what true love really can be, because I know he really loves me, and he proves that every day because he cries when I leave him, which is potentially codependent on him. Um, you know, and I think that's also a really it's special. So if you do feel that you are unlovable, get a dog.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

Get a dog, and I think it's funny you say that because I think well, I got Rascal at a really dark time in my life, and it was the the only the only thing that kept me alive was and we're gonna leave this dog. But there is when I try when I travel and there's no I tend to borrow people's pets when I'm on the move. Like I'll I I was in Edinburgh and I knocked on the neighbour's door where I was staying. I was like, Can I walk your dog? Um, but there's something about getting up in the morning and not having to think about yourself and having to do something outside yourself for another being that is very grounding, and um, I think that has actually helped me learn to live with my partner. Like when we moved in together, we love each other, but we moved in together, and it was a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. We've been together over a year, we were together all the time up until that point. We travelled the world together, and then as soon as we got a flat together, he drove me up the wall for the first four days. It was like, and then I realised, God, I'm not on my own anymore. I'm like, I actually have another person's feelings and space to consider, and it's not all about me. And that's kind of what I do think love has conditions, and the condition for me is respect and honesty, and that was something I never grew up with. I didn't grow up in a house where we respected each other or anyone was honest, so it's something I've had to learn with myself to be really honest with myself and respect myself, and to realise that you know some things are there's needs that need to be met, needs that you can let go of, and needs that are kind of not that important, you know, that you can kind of meh on. And there's a couple of things in our relationship where that are must-haves and everything else is just kind of gravy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

And I suppose also is also releasing the conditions from loving yourself, and you know, there's again, we're gonna do a podcast about body image um in a few weeks' time, you know, and that kind of special me, I'll love myself when and I'll love myself if. And I think that's a really interesting idea as well. That kind of conditional love that we have with ourselves needs to be released because if we can't, and we'll end on this because you taught me this. I thought it was the great RuPaul that said, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are we gonna love anyone else? And you school me. And I love actually where the original came from, which was Maya Angelo. And do you remember? Do you remember it? Go for it.

SPEAKER_04 51:50

Yeah, she says, I don't trust people who say I love you and they don't love themselves. And she says there's an old African proverb that's like, never accept the shirt from a man who is naked. Uh you know, so it's like it's like it is exactly that, like you're trying to, as we say in the fellowship, transmit something you haven't got, and that's a pointless task, and it is very if if your ability to get up in the morning, brush your teeth, and look after yourself is dependent on someone or something, it's always up for negotiation. And I really do believe that learning to love yourself is the beginning of a lifelong romance, and it will only bring good people into your life. So, thank you for being in my life, Shell.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Ah, the greatest love of all is us. Your greatest love of all.

SPEAKER_04 52:46

Yeah, we're too sober for each other.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

100%. And and actually, strangely enough, just to end and tie it into the title, you know, sometimes I did fear that I was too sober for love and too sober to find somebody and all of that. But actually, maybe I'm like Goldilocks, just sober enough.

SPEAKER_04 53:03

Um that's gonna be our spinoff.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Yeah, right. I'm gonna start selling porridge bowls. Literally, I will do anything to make money. Um, next episode, we are talking about money. We're talking about that dirty money word, a little bit like we talked about today about how a relationship with money might have changed from youth and why money is such a difficult thing for people to talk about. And again, how it ties to worth, I think, is probably going to come up a lot. Um, so I'm really excited about that. Um, please do follow us. Um, please don't follow us physically, that's weird. Um, follow us on Instagram. Um, please tell all of your friends about us. We want to be as big and like listened to by as many people because I feel, and I'm sure you'll agree, this last hour we've dropped some serious gold that's probably going to be life changing for all those who listen.

SPEAKER_04 53:57

For me, certainly.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

Share about us, follow us, uh, not physically on Instagram. And um, we can't wait to um hear also all from you in next week's episode or what you think about money. Ian, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Shale. Have a wonderful rest of the day.

SPEAKER_04 54:14

And you.