Episode 4: Why Are Young Men Falling Into the Manosphere? Power, Identity & The Internet

In this episode of Too Sober For This, recovery advocate Shell Righini and comedian Iain Anderson take on one of the internet’s most controversial and confusing topics: the manosphere.

What even is it? Where did it come from? And why are so many young men being pulled into it right now?

From Louis Theroux documentaries to viral TikTok creators, the manosphere has exploded into mainstream conversation. But beneath the headlines is something far more complex; a mix of loneliness, identity, community, and a search for meaning that’s gone… sideways.

Shell and Iain unpack the origins of the manosphere, from men’s rights movements and fatherhood struggles to the darker corners of online culture : Incels, red pill ideology, and the rise of influencers selling power, money, and “truth.”

They explore the uncomfortable reality that this didn’t come from nowhere.

There are conversations about masculinity, vulnerability, addiction, and what happens when people feel disconnected, unseen, and desperate for belonging. Plus the role of social media, self-help culture, and whether we’re all being shaped by the same systems.

In this episode

• What the manosphere actually is (and why it’s not new)
• How it evolved from support spaces into something more extreme
• Why young men are being drawn into it
• Loneliness, identity, and the need for belonging
• The role of influencers, money, and online manipulation
• Masculinity, role models, and the pressure to “be a man”
• The impact on women and the growing divide
• Why outrage sells… and who benefits from it
• Community vs isolation: what actually helps

Expect uncomfortable questions, strong opinions, dark humour, and a lot of moments where things get very real.

NEXT EPISODE QUESTION — GET INVOLVED

Next week we’re talking about the wellness industry and how wellness and self help can be weaponised as a way for people to put others down or to control.

So we want to hear from you: What are your opinions and experiences of the wellness industry?

Send us a DM on Instagram @toosoberforthispodcast or WhatsApp +44 7343 057171 with your thoughts and we might feature your opinion in the next episode of Too Sober For This.

Connect With Us

@toosoberforthispodcast

Shell Righini - @shell_righini  Iain Anderson - @iainanderson.comedy

Traumedy Show - https://iainandersoncomedy.com/

Listen to Shell’s podcast We Recover Loudly here on Spotify  

This Podcast Is Brought to You By We Recover Loudly Merch

Bold recovery slogans and wearable reminders that recovery doesn’t have to be quiet.

Shop here: www.werecoverloudly.com

@werecoverloudly

Mastered and edited by Unmuted Studios.  Podcast production, editing, and creative support.

www.unmutedstudios.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to this new episode of Two Sober for This with your host Shelley Regini and my co-host Ian Anderson. Ian Anderson, the Princess Diana of Scotland. So on this week's episode, we are going hard. We're going to a very highly topical topic, topical topic. And we are going to be discussing the phenomena that is the manosphere. The manosphere is something that has, it's not new. It's been around in different guises, perhaps, but it's gaining a lot of press at the minute because of the Louis Thoreau documentary that was on Netflix two or three weeks ago. It's something that we found our friends were discussing a lot. And we thought, hey, why not get our incredible minds together and just really pull it apart and talk about what the fuck it is? And on that note, Ian, what the hell is the manosphere?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Well, thank you for asking, Shell. And actually, like most things, while I was researching it from the toilet for this show, um the it started from probably a very noble place. So the manosphere refers to a loose, informal collection of websites, blogs, forums, and social media influencers focused on masculinity, men's rights, and dating. So it's an umbrella term basically. And while it started as a space for men to discuss shared experiences, it has evolved into a complex and often controversial digital ecosystem. So there are a few key pillars. Um, the first one, and we probably all remember this, is men's rights activists. So focus on legal and social issues like fathers' rights, divorce law, and male suicide rates. So again, important stuff. So important. I don't I don't know if you remember years ago a bunch of them were in the um in parliament, you know, like there was a guy dressed as Batman climbing up the side of the card.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Oh, dude, fathers for justice.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

That's it, yeah. Um, so that was that is kind of like what the flash point of what would become the manosphere is. And then there's all the the misogyny ones, so pick-up artists centered on strategies for attracting women, often using game or psychological tactics. Look into my eyes, you're mine. Um it's men going their own way. They advocate for total self-sovereignty and avoiding committed relationships with women, so basically sleeping around. Incels, uh, involuntary celibates. Oh god. That was me when I was using drugs. I mean, uh, I think my I started to look quite crusty. My hand was like turn off the lights. Um, involuntary celibates who often feel hopeless about dating and sometimes harbour resentment towards women and attractive men. And red pillars, a broad group that believes they have woken up to a hidden reality that society is biased against men. So, why is controversial? High levels of misogyny, hostility towards women, or viewing them as objects to be one. Equalization, the concern that young men may start with self-improvement content and be funneled into extreme extremist or hateful ideologies, which can I just say I totally would have bought into. I mean, I I became a raw vegan cocaine addict. Same. Uh yeah, and that's the thing, like when you're lost and hopeless and you feel like you want to change any door you'll take, right? And essentialism, the belief that men and women are biologically hardwired for specific rigid roles that can be changed. And that again, I also understand when I was on your podcast, Shell, um I felt as a gay man that I was put into some boxes when I first came out. Um, and it was really hard to navigate who I was in that kind of LGBT ecosystem. So that's that's the definition for me, Shell.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Wow. I'm also can I just say so impressed that both of us have not only researched it, we've got notes that's like, God, we are only episode four, and we already are putting Mel Robbins to shame because Bitch doesn't do her own research.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

We've been we've been search sharing each other links to our articles. Doesn't mean we've read them, but we've been sharing them.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Mel Mel Robbins, uh you know, her research team says, why don't you research Mel? And she says, let them, and she walks through the door.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Nice. Oh God. Anyway, um, thank you very much um for that because I think it's interesting that you said that that it started out as a place of goodness, because I think that's so true of so many of these things. And I think that that men, especially the kind of fathers for justice thing, um, I've only ever seen it from the other side where where in as much as I've got single single mums as friends. Um and that whole but the but that whole system, the way that it works and the whole courts and divorce and stuff, it is just it's awful. So I can imagine that it, you know, for men as well. And it's really sad, you know, when there's been any kind of addiction, mental health, um, anything like that in a person's uh background when it comes to those things, it seems that it becomes very biased towards the parent who hasn't had those issues. And it's yeah, it's just it's such a mess. So without knowing anything really about justice for fathers, what I couldn't remember about it, well, like you said, it was a good thing. And, you know, I think that the interesting thing is that when these things just become so toxic, and it's almost like there's these people that look out for these cracks of for opportunity to worm in and turn something that has these positive connotations into something so vile, which is what we see. And look, I mean, I think I'm pretty prolific. Um there's been many times that this has been evidenced. I shan't go into them all, but one of the things that is really evidenced is that back when I did my master's degree a million years ago, I wrote a paper called The Crisis of the White Heterosexual Male. And I know, and I wrote this nearly.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

You'd be shot down for saying that now?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Not only that, that the at the time, nearly 20 years ago, um, at the time I wrote it, it was in my, it was for my master's, it was my psycho the psychotherapy module. And it was like, what can psychotherapy teach us? Um my title, which I came up with myself, what can psychotherapy teach us about the crisis of the white heterosexual male? And at the time, everyone was like, What do you mean there's not a crisis of a white heterosexual male? You know, we're not looking at that as a crisis um uh grouping, da la la. And my essay talked about how there was a lack of um within psychotherapy, there's something called the hero module and like how boys need to have strong role models to become men and da-da-la. Anyway, my paper, it was the worst paper, like that I got the lowest mark because I was told that what I was writing about was irrelevant and um and and not a thing. Because if I'd written about the crisis of a more typically marginalized group, it wouldn't that I was trying to be controversial. Oh, fast forward.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Look who's fucking paper is so relevant.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

And you know, is and actually what happens when a group of people become ignored is that they fight for attention in really bizarre and insane ways. We've seen this happen with multiple uh what would have been defined as previously marginalised communities. I think sometimes I don't um I don't recognise I mean gay pride came from a good really good place, and now there's often a lot of like aggression and violence around it. It doesn't seem very appropriate considering like why it started, how it started, and and the fact that we were so oppressed that back in the day that kind of violence was directed towards us, or name-calling, or you know, I I would argue that we shouldn't celebrate the death of anyone, no matter what side of the aisle they sit on, even if it's the wrong side. And because the wrong side of the a the aisle is is give is dependent on where you're standing, is your point of view. And I think what's interesting about this manosphere stuff is not to belittle it, but the the kind of men that are typically representative of the manosphere are the men that want to have kids and never see them. But the flash point of the manosphere where men fighting for the rights to see their children, and I'm from the west of Scotland, and I have known women who have weaponised access to their children, yeah. Um, and like there's so many deadbeat dads. I'm not trying to say that. There are a lot of men who I know in recovery who are useless, and that the um shout out to my friends, and there's you know, the pressure on a woman in recovery versus the the pressure on a man in recovery is totally different. A woman doesn't have the luxury of not spending time with her kids to work on a recovery, whereas a man will come in and say, I need a year, then everyone kind of collapse, right? So the fact that this was born out of men who were desperate to spend time with their children, they were fighting for the right to see their children more, not to take their children off the mothers, but to see their kids to be more involved in their kids' lives, which is something that I can get behind. The fact that it's then been latched onto and twisted and turned into whatever it is we're witnessing now with young men and young boys, um, is I think very, very sad.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yeah. And I think it it really does speak to our desperate need for community as people, community and acceptance. Because when I look back at my um, you know, one of the reasons that I found myself in the industry that I found myself in, um, um hospitality, is that um there's a famous quote by Anthony Bourdain about like how hospitality is where the punks and the misfits and the wastes and the strays, and he doesn't say that, but effectively it's all about how all of the unwanteds, all of the throwaways of society in hospitality, we welcome you with open arms and we give you the thing that you've been looking for your whole life, which is community slash family. Um and it's this family word which then gets completely exploited. Um, and it's there's it's it's it's not a new phenomena because if we look at it, if you look at the punk movement, if you look at emos, if you look at skater communities, I mean subcultures and communities and forming of bonds with people based around singular ideas, is it's I mean, it's been going on since the dawn of time, I imagine. You know, probably some cavemen who preferred a certain mammoth and some who preferred the saber-toothed tiger. Maybe they didn't hang out. Um but that desperate need for connection and community is it's something it's that we have from birth. And I think what's interesting is that the the ones that have become dis disconnected as time has come on, has it seems to be these white heterosexual males, because as as we're growing up, I can see all these groupings that would accept these wastes, these misfits, these, you know, all of that. But that's why it felt like they start they were starting to be marginalised, which just makes it rife for exploitation. And like you were saying, when you mentioned at the beginning, like you were searching for anything. Like I'm I worked in hospitality, I got what I thought I needed, which was that community, that family. I lived in a warehouse in London. Again, warehouse community was incredibly um like um insular. Um, everybody kind of knew each other, and again, it was like this. It was a bit like a, I don't know, I suppose like a like a travelling community or something. Um and then again I could remember becoming vegan because I thought that was what was wrong with me. Definitely not alcohol, it was probably the dairy. Um, but again, it was something about it was this is when everyone was vegan in London. It was something about being able to identify with a group that gave me a safety net and it made me feel fit. And now one of the grateful things about being in a 12-step programme is the safety and connection that I feel being a part of a community. My point being is I get it. I get why men fall into this. I really get it. It's not a surprise.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

And I and actually I think that if so there are people within it that could be classified as victims, right? So I did watch the Louis Through uh documentary, and can I just say, like, a lot of people are really annoyed at him for not giving both sides of the argument, which means you've never watched a Louis Thoreau documentary because he doesn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

No, he doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

That's not his style, and also when did it become his his alone responsibility to fix it? Is this the straw that broke the camel's back? Like, if you're up there and you're really upset about it, if he hadn't done the documentary, he's the only person to have gone in and done one.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Uh not true.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Ross Kemp has caught on cable television. Yeah, we all saw it.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

And didn't which was so weird because Ross Kemp is the epitome and it's really funny watching it. Yeah, it's really funny watching him try to be engaging.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I never watched that one, actually. You meant, uh yeah, you told me about it and I totally forgot about it. That's how insignificant.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Ross, you're not an alpha, but uh Ross when Louie is more alpha than Ross Kemp, but what has happened to the world? Crisis.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Crisis, but I guess Luther is known for going into like really complex and I mean the act, the level of access he was able to get, also the fact that these guys didn't even Google him. And let I mean, how did he not know who he is?

SPEAKER_01 14:06

The arrogance arrogance.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

And do you know what it reminded me of? Like, to not do your due diligence and think that you're gonna come off smelling of roses was giving Prince Andrew interview vibes. Like it was just like, I don't need to think I can just say I was at a Pisa Express and walking, right? And so uh and we're and everyone's gonna buy it. I don't sweat, right? He just thinks he's a man that's in my opinion, he thinks he's a man that's above the law. Why else would you be smiling into the camera at Epstein Island while leaning over a passed-out woman unless you thought you were never gonna get into trouble for it? I mean, the level of entitlement. So, like, I think though that some of these boys that follow these leaders, um, you could see the desperation in their eyes, and you could see, you know, this shorter Latino guy, how he ended up sleeping in his car. He's been investing all his money in these crappy trade websites that they're all advertising, being told they need to beat the system. We're all I've heard beat the system since I was about 10 years old. Somebody needs to work in the fucking system. I mean, after Brexit, all the nurses were taken out of the system and sent back to their home countries, and the system broke. So people need to collect the garbage, and people need to work in the hospitals, and and people need to wipe your arse when you're elderly. Like, that is the system that we're trying to break free of, right? Um, and so schools and universities and roads, and like that is I know it's not ideal, but I've travelled to other places on the planet that like we are very fortunate for the system we have. Um, there's just a few billionaires up at the top that could do with a tail-in-off, right? Yeah, and so this whole idea that we can all live off of like cryptocurrency and just like give a middle finger to the to the system, like these guys are in a pyramid scheme. That is like they are losing their money to this ideology that the life is better for them and this one person has the answers. And I think about when I was really mentally ill three days ago. No, when I was really mentally ill pre-coffee, and I was pre-coffee, yeah. Before before I was um before I was in the psychiatric unit, like I anything you told me was going to change my life, I would have taken it. Like I would have been I was just lucky I had never had any money to invest, to be honest with you, at that point. But I wanted a shortcut too, and these young men who I think I mean we're in recovery, right? So we know it's not just men that feel lost and disconnected. We know young women are struggling. 100%. I've got female friends who the decision to not have a child took years of thinking with their partner. I mean, we all are everybody's got a thing. Unfortunately, and that this is maybe going to sound controversial, particularly straight white men are not allowed to have a thing. Um, they're not allowed to struggle because they're the patriarchy.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Exactly. And I that's what my kind of paper was alluding to 20 years ago. Fuck you, um, the lecturer. Uh I can't remember his name actually. But that was exactly it. And and it feels like which is why we've had so many of these groups. If I because I've been trying to connect it to anything that we would have had growing up in terms of a um a trend or a phenomena, and I really the only thing I could think about was how like at school we would have like the emo kids, we have the very much like the skater kids.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

I was an emo kid.

unknown 17:43

Really?

SPEAKER_00 17:45

I was a goth?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

No, a skater. Yeah, I was a goth.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

I was a goth that listened to Kayleigh Minogue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

A goth, a gay goth from Glasgow.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

I was I was absolutely I was I was gorgeous as well. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

God, okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Um I was like, I was I was really I was really beautiful. I was a very non-gender specific looking at the age of 15.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Okay, we need photos immediately.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

I'll get you those, I'll get you the receipts. I actually talk about it in my show. I talk about how I was a gay goth in Glasgow when I signed up for the cult.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

But that's it. Like I can remember being really when I was younger wanting to join a cult. Um, because it just felt like everything felt so big and so uncertain and so just I mean, just enormous to me with my brain and the way that I work, that the idea of having somebody take over my thought process, tell me where to be, what to do. And you know, again, so I know a lot of neurodivergent people will relate to this, but it felt like a relief. And I think it would be really interesting for at some point for somebody to really look at the types of guys that join these incel groups or take this kind of manosphere attitude or whatever to these extremes. Because yeah, we'll talk about them being from, for example, broken homes without, you know, oh well, it's because they need a strong male role model. If only we had a strong male role model. You know, and in a way, it's a bit like, well, I don't know if we do need a strong male role model. I think actually we need to show men that it's all right not to be strong and that it's actually okay to be free to, you know, I was thinking part of my paper, I will get over this, but part of my paper was talking about um the role models of the time that we were seeing. And it was when Harry Potter was really big. And, you know, Harry Potter was this kind of like, you know, Harry Potter effectively is very like indecisive, you know, he's not, he wears glasses, so he's basically disabled. You know, he was kind of like, you know, he wasn't necessarily he you couldn't put him up at this like strong role model that you would aspire to be like, maybe. Um, and like, you know, it was all a bit wishy-washy. I mean, I I don't know much about Harry Potter. Maybe he's maybe he gets some balls in later books. Um, but I mean, like the man of the moment right now is um Tommy Shelby, because we've just had the Peaky Blindest movie out. So um Tommy Shelby's character's been talked about a lot, and you know, oh God, and I, you know, I I drink from that uh Kool-Aid, he's amazing. But you know, that that image of a man, I mean, he's violent, he's uh he is um uh he's not faithful. Um I mean, he's a strong family man, I suppose, apart from the fact that he's abandoned most of his children. I mean, he beat the shit out of his son in the film. I mean, we're not talking about that. So I guess like I get it in a way, it's it's a very confusing landscape, I imagine, for men, you know, because you say to men, have a role model, who's your role model? And it's like, but what are what are what are they being given as strong options, you know?

SPEAKER_00 21:01

And then that in that documentary, I mean, that guy, I can't remember his name's tickety-talkie or tickety-cat-do.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

HK tickety-talkie or hate the HS TikTok.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yeah, like I think the knob end was silent, but like I his mother seems like she's got the right values, but seemed to ignore the fact he didn't because they were in a really nice house. And that the definition of individualism is absolutely not thinking about the greater good. Like, I am a comedian, as is well known, uh, in Scotland, and uh and um I there's a type of comedy called Roasts uh Roasting, and I did it once with a good friend of mine when I've been doing comedy for six months, didn't like it. I love watching it, right? I love a roast, I love a roast, and my friend, actually, my friend who I'm staying with, like his parents, so it's my friend Ollie Busso. He was Rose Champ in Barcelona. We started comedy at the same time. He is an amazing Rose comic, but also a lovely fella, right? Um and uh, but I just don't have it in me to do it, right? Because it just doesn't I just I it doesn't sit well with me, and so I just I don't like it. And like I could probably force myself to do it and be uncomfortable, that's my point. And maybe I would be really good at it and make money, but the way I make my money has to be in line with my values.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yes, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:37

100%. That's where I that's where I struggle. My previous my previous life, I was working in medical emergencies in an insurance company, and uh we had to make uh insurance decisions. Uh like I all we always, and this is what maybe people don't understand about health insurance is the people in the office were always on the side of the patient and always pushing for cover. Wow, and then it's usually the policy people hire up. So I don't want to name the company because I don't want to get sued, but we were always on the customer side. Um, and because if you weren't, you were probably a little bit of a prick. Um and we were dealing with people in really horrible situations, maybe in our accidents around the world, premature births and all that. So, like, but if I was the kind of person who worked in a company where everyone I worked with was not like that, then I wouldn't have been there for seven years, right? Because I need to be in line with I'm sober now, I just don't get away with it.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

It's it's so true, and we've got loads and loads of comments from people that I do want to go through and one of them's referencing to this. But like that's what you've just said really speaks to my heart because you know, it's about that alignment with making with how you make your money. Like, that's one of the reasons I left um a lot of my hospitality roles, you know. Like for some companies I'd wanted to work for my whole career, and then I saw behind the curtain and found out that all of the food was mass-produced in a factory, and I know I can just remember serving um, like, you know, a glass of juice as a fresh orange juice, but it's from a carton and things. And I just, and it was actually, I'm not saying that that was a reason to drink, but that level of discomfort was certainly a contributing factor to me going home and feeling icky and and wanting to wash that pay, that ick away. And it was, it was a um like not a cause of drinking, but it was certainly in the mix. Uh so that unalignment, and you know, so one of our first comments is from um my dear friend Alan who says, I haven't managed to sit through the documentary, the Louis Thereu documentary, as the people are insufferable. Um, but but from what I gather, it's not just about the men. Half the point of it is people take taking advice and paying these creators money when really they aren't qualified to be dishing out advice, nor do they have views that should be pushed on impressionable people. That this HS Tiki Toki, he's a 23-year-old guy, you know, who he said has clearly had this colourful upbringing. Uh, should we be, you know, these people that are uh giving him money have a responsibility in themselves, but that's I think just as the choice being made for them?

SPEAKER_00 25:29

I mean, I think let's let's work let's be go back to that old saying that everyone's doing the best they can, right? Now, do I think that the guys running these TikToks and stuff are doing the best they can? I think they think that they're I think they think they are, right? I but I think that they're doing the best they can to make money. Um and um do I think they're being dishonest? Absolutely. I heard the way the guy was speaking around his mum versus the way he talks to the camera.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

But when he gets down on his hands and knees and starts cleaning the floor because his mum tells him to, that was that's hilarious. That's brilliant. Yeah. And then he doesn't see the irony.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

I know, because he wouldn't, but then his mum lets him get in front of the camera a couple minutes later, then and you know what I mean? So um, like when they tried to get Louis through for the Jimmy Savile thing, he's like, I tried to expose him while he was alive, which is true, we all saw it.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

So actually, just as a side note to that, when you mentioned about, you know, the backlash of Louis and making it his responsibility to show all sides of the Manosphere, I thought that that was the way that the boys were saying to Louis, it's your fault that that Savile got away. Again, it's like, well, hang on a minute. You people telling J Louis right now the way he did the Manosphere documentary, it's his fault. It's the same as that HS Tiki Tockie blaming him for Jimmy Savile. Like, yeah, it's not Louis's responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the thing. It's like, I think that we're seeing, without getting too far away from the question, but we're seeing like it it's very black and white are thinking across all across all subjects now, where it becomes someone's absolute responsibility because they were the first to put their hand up. What I think's been interesting is this documentary is we so I've a friend of mine, my friend's daughter, said to me, Well, we all knew this was happening, and I says, No, you think that because you knew it was happening, that of course you know it's happening, it's happening to you, you're a woman. Yeah, right? That's like me. Like I turn around and say things about gay rights, thinking that everyone knows this is going on, and then find I am alone. Why? Because it directly impacts me in my life. That's why I know about it, right? You ask the average person, what do you know? I would say that if you voted for Brexit but you don't understand why the manosphere happened, you're a fucking idiot, right? Because you were manipulated by text on the side of a bus. Like, do you get what I mean? And where's all that money we were promised? We were promised big things. They tap into that carnal sense of survival. We can make you richer, we can help you survive, we can help you thrive. They believe them, we believe them, we believe our politicians and their reforms nearly in power, right? So, like, if if you're gonna vote for reform and you don't understand the manosphere, then you need to do your it's the same thing. And I think that the we feel like I went to see the Devil Wears Prada the other night, and you know that bit where she goes, you know that bit where she goes like that, you think you're wearing this jumper and it doesn't mean anything, right? And there's a t-shirt you can buy in the theatre saying, is Cerulean not blue, not lapis, not turquoise? And she says, But that decision was made for you by the people standing in this room from a pile of stuff. That's kind of what's happening to us through social media, through all sorts, you know. And I think these I do think these men who are following and giving their money to this guy, I do think they're being taken advantage of, and I do think they're unwell.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah, and again, because uh it is these people that we are saying who are preying on young vulnerable people are in fact young vulnerable people themselves, it feels. Um, because you're right, it is a 23-year-old guy, and you know, who um from a single mother, um, single parent family um who definitely, I mean, can't have come up. Well, I don't know, actually, I shouldn't say, because I don't really know anything about his background, but you assume, you know, this is a classic, um, these are the classic um adverse childhood experiences that make you prime for things like addiction, exploitation, you know, all of those things. Um I I wonder whether how many men at the top of this pyramid do come from a traditional household.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Well, I think Yeah, I mean, this sounds like I'm a big fan of the therapist Marissa Peer, and she put it perfectly. I reshared it on my Instagram yesterday. She's like, these are really lost, like school bullies as well. School bullies, they hate themselves, they hate themselves. Like, I've been around so many bullies in my life. I know that when I had my sharpest tongue and I was the meanest to people, it was when I was suicidal and at my lowest, like they like hurt people, hurt people, hurt people, hurt people, right? And it is true, it is that like these these guys are lashing out of a world that they think owes them a living. Like it's just, you know, like they have these what seems to be mothers in their life that really tried their hardest to raise good boys. That like that guy's mum seems like she would get on well without us, like she she's not not homophobic, she clearly was a hard-working woman because she's been able to, you know, get her son like through school and clean and all those things. And you saw that clip where he reconnected with his father and he was clearly heartbroken, although he tried to.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Oh God. And the way that the father just had absolutely no ability to connect to speak to his son, like to not be affected by that as a viewer, never mind the person who was in it. It's just impossible, you know. My friend Jack says, you know, exactly that that you would initially assume not having a father would mean that they'd have a greater respect for women with seeing how their mums raised them and worked so hard to provide for them. Not having that father around means, though, that they don't have that male role model to show them how to respect women. And I mean, in a way, I suppose, in fact, they are modelling their fathers because that that father he did not show good respect of anyone, never mind women. Um, Jack also says how found it ironic that um the shame for women for those high body counts and yet theirs didn't matter. Um, and that how like that monogamy being a one-way street. But I thought that was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Um the OnlyFans thing as well, like the OnlyFans thing. He was like promoting OnlyFans, making money off OnlyFans. And that was the other thing. I was thinking about this in bed last night, trying to get to sleep, and I couldn't because I like I was like, Oh, we've got the podcast tomorrow. And I started, you know, when you get like a thought, and I was like, it never occurred to me while I was watching it, but these women who are uh on OnlyFans in this man's company and knowing the kind of things he says about them. They asked that woman, what do you think about his views? And she says, Well, he's actually a really nice guy in real life, and she's there being used like a prop, right? And that woman is there willingly, she's not being held at gunpoint, she's not like being tied to child, like she is like they're they're they're collaborating on on content together, and you have to collaborating. Look, I I think they are.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

I don't think that that woman is coerced into it.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

She was sitting there and she was playing the game. She she know like anyone again, anyone that got on camera with him knew who he was and what his stuff was about.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

And knew what they got, they stood to gain by their association with him.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

This is what I couldn't understand with that other guy, you know, the guy in Miami who had that late night podcast, and all these women come on and they just insult the women to the face and call them ugly. Maybe the first time that podcast ever happened, everyone was surprised. Any podcast after that? I've been invited on podcasts. I gave them a Google, I was on yours. Do you know what I mean? I know what like I've at least know what I'm getting myself into. And so, how do any of these women that then appear on that podcast, they're OnlyFans creators, they're up for being slid off by these men? Does it help drive people? Like, I I was confused by that. I was confused by why anyone would put themselves in the firing line like that.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

And that's and I think it's so sad, but that's not new because as you were saying about I was thinking of like Howard Stern and how awful he is and still is to his guests. I can remember there was a um one that he did with Anna Nicole Smith where he was talking about how she'd put on weights and he was vile to her, and um, you know, Chris Evans, you know, Chris Evans's clips that have not done have not aged well, his uh what's it called, thank God it's Friday um show. Again, the way he spoke to women and you know, any of that kind of stuff, if you think about Britney Spears, you know, and and again, it's interesting because we look back at the things from our childhood with our eyes now, and we see how wrong it was for a child basically to be parading around in a sexualized way selling music, but there was such a machine, and there still is such a machine propping her up. I mean, poor Britney, I mean, she needs some serious help, but there are so many people making money from her that and I think while we say Gaming Winehouse, nobody was ever going to get her help because she was making money. 100% which reminds me a little bit of these situations now, because like we were saying, there are other people making money from what these men are creating, which is not just the men within it. And I suppose that's it. Where is the light? Who is getting exploited? You know, where is where is the ownership and where is where isn't it? Because, like you said, I'm sure a lot of those women would say, No, we're here for us, we get paid what we want to get paid, and you know, we're here by choice, and that's our thing. And and then there's other women who are like, Yeah, but you're setting females back and you're terrible examples and all of that, and then the flip of that, well, we're not here to be an example to you and to your children, we're here to live our lives. It just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Isn't that interesting? But that's exactly the same because whereas women will say that these men that follow these uh influencers are are completely responsible and they've chosen it, like I'd I think they might have some compassion for these women on Insta uh on OnlyFans, and it's that thing of like I actually think that while you're doing stuff that you might regret when you're older, at the time you think it's a great idea. I know this from my own life experience, so it's like it's I I really I really think that we're dealing with people who are desperate, wanting to make money and and and uh probably mentally just not a hundred percent. Like I think that and I think that's the thing. I don't say that to be um Ruby Wax years ago when I got into meditation and read her book Frazzled, she says it says that one in four people have a mental health issue. She says, but it's four in four, just not all at the same time. And I really believe that. I think you can't get through to the end of your life and there's and not have some, whether it's postpartum depression or you know, a lot of people start drinking heavily when they retire. But like there's everybody has a thing, right? Some it is a spectrum, right? Mental health, but I think we all have not everyone's are knocking on the door of suicide, but like we all have something where we just can't cope. And the way that the world has changed in my lifetime is that like self-help, like for me, I think is repugnant. I I don't think you can get yourself well at home alone with a book, and it is that push of self-help that's created these spaces where there's basically bubbles where the manosphere can exist. Um, it's the reason why so many um self-help gurus have been able to come up. I mean, just look, I hate to say his name, but Russell Brand, I mean, like, I just I camp with him. Like he rewrote the 12 steps by putting the F word in the middle of it and made money from it. Like he's not, he's he started off well and has turned into what is happening?

SPEAKER_01 38:00

And and and he's in the ma he's in the manosphere now. He is and when and when he did that with the recovery book, he was applauded for doing it. I was engaged with it, and it was a case of like, oh wow, you know, but the ego to I did ask who his sponsor was when the book came out. I know who his sponsor is. His sponsor's actually fantastic. I don't know if his sponsor is still a sponsor, considering what's been going. Um, but I think it's interesting, and I think this slightly relates to it. There's the Marilyn Manson documentary that was on recently um on channel four or a little while ago. Um, and again, I can remember listening to Marilyn Manson as a teenager. My cousins had his autobiography, it was vile. But reading that book, you know, when you read that book, however, as a child, you were like, whoa, this is so edgy. Read it as a grown-up. It's it's fucking abhorrent. The abuse that he went through. However, the way that he treated people and the things that are coming out now, um, but his response to it is like, if a s if you've got a snake and a snake bites you, you don't blame the snake because a snake is being a snake, you know, or I think it's something like, or a lion, if if a if a lion attacks you, you don't go, well, damn you, but you're being a lion. And and it's a bit like that with Marilyn Manson with Russell Brand. They are being the people that they said they were. And then they are now. Why are we surprised that they are in fact these vile humans that abused, that raped, that who you know, allegedly all of these things. But they kind of did it in broad, in in full spectrum, broad. And I feel a bit like that with this manosphere thing, because again, they're doing it out in the open in in broad daylight or whatever. They're not shielding or or um what's the word, sanitizing their behaviours.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

But they're not claiming to be good people, and and unfortunately, like I hate to elibit the the differences.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

I think Marilyn Manson definitely doesn't claim to be. I think Russell Brand did.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

And he c he claimed to have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Yeah, and that was Marilyn Manson's yeah, argument was like, I've never claimed to not be a serpent, a lion, so why are you coming at me?

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Yeah, I get it, but I think like but Brand did kind of pretend to be Hollywood now. And we expected more from him because he was someone who appeared to mentor people, turn his life around. Right. He used he used a vulnerable, well, allegedly a vulnerable, he was in 12-step meetings targeting women, which is the reason why a lot of women are scared to go to 12-step meetings, right? Like and that's I I think the most disappointing thing about the men in the manosphere is and I've seen this happen as someone who is in meetings, um, they can't understand a woman's fears, which I think is the first point of disconnect, which is there's the reason why women's meetings exist. Because I don't know a woman that hasn't had a bad experience with a man full stop, like absolutely full stop. I think as a gay man, I have this kind of like um I I get to see and have conversations with women that straight men don't always have. 100%. And so I'm and and sometimes those women don't even have with other women because of the shame attached to it. So as someone who's been that gay best friend shoulder to cry on, I have in in recovery been the man that said something. I'm like to other men, I was like, I think your behaviour's disgusting and creepy and you need to get out of here. And like I think there's a lot of men now who are out there claiming to protect women by acting very aggressive and violent in the streets, smashing windows, starting fires. I don't think women feel very safe around men like that.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

No, and I think that I think that women are feeling less and less safe. And you know, that that what was it last summer with the whole what would you rather come across in a forest, a bear or a man? And the responses were just absolutely heartbreaking, hilarious and heartbreaking at the same time, because there wasn't one woman that categorically would said that that they would rather come across a man. And and I but but I think sadly the the responses, however, then become fuel to the type of men who go, Well, well, us men can't do anything right, so what are we gonna do? And you know, and it's that whole like it's not all men, but it's men. Do you know the comedian uh Daniel Sloss? He did a very, yeah, I love him, and he did that really, really emotional um, oh, it gets me every time, where he talks about his friend who had um attacked their mutual friend, and he's like, you know, but I did see and I did know and I could tell things went wrong, and I didn't say anything, and he's like, and I will carry that with me forever. And oh, it's giving me shivers just now. But again, I feel like the burden of that responsibility as well must feel really heavy on men like you because you're a good man.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

For me, well, I try to be, but then again, as a gay person, I saw things when I was younger and did nothing, right? So, like um, the thing that we like the reason why I know that it's always a man is because I'm a man who's been around a lot of men. And uh and like we I don't know if you remember that bit in Baby Reindeer where the guy was.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Oh my god, that film, I mean that series was fucking absolutely fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

But when that the the the rape scene happened, the really sad thing is the gay friends of mine of my generation all kind of said, Yeah, but that's what happens at those kind of parties.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Yeah. And do you know what? The women that I know in meetings, including myself, we all also were like, Yeah, that's happened, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Yeah. It was so so Relatable. Yeah, so relatable, but also I was alarmed by how unalarmed I was by it.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

100%. And then interestingly, I have a few people, a few pi friends that were like, oh, we couldn't watch it. And I thought, and they they are not people that are in recovery, they're they're quite unquote normal. And I thought, wow, I don't know anyone in recovery that's watched that baby, and and the end scene um when he does the the the stand-up, and I can't remember exactly what he says, so I'll say it wrong. But effectively, when he was talking about, oh, I'm getting chills again, I'm like, quite when he was just saying how desperate he was to be loved, to be accepted, to be that, that he accepted that abuse as part of the process, like the relatability of that. And again, I think that um without getting too emotional, I think we've kind of touched on this in the last two episodes as well that Shell just needs a boyfriend. No, um, that you know, that searching for true love, but needing to have the self-worth to know that you can receive it, that ability to sit and have money because you know that you're worth not being in debt and to spend your money wisely. And now I think for the men and the women who are experiencing this manosphere, which isn't a new phenomenon, it's just a new name for the exploitation, the divide, and the way that we've always lived. It's just a fancy new name that makes it sound a bit like a Marvel Super Vit hero universe, I did think, right? I was like, trust men to make it sound like a fucking Marvel movie. But it's just again, it's just these really sad, connected, lonely souls that are gonna find themselves completely abused and destroyed and discarded while the minor few make money off others paying.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Yeah, and I think when you said it's the way it's always been, it made me think of a conversation I had recently with a friend of mine, and she says she read an article that said everyone's always read an article, but she actually read an article, it wasn't a real. And uh she said that we've kind of fooled herself into believing that the world is fair and just, but that's very recent history. Um, and you know, like with everything happening with all the wars and everything, and it's like being as a society, civilization has been mostly cruel. Uh people having their heads chopped off, women walked up, you know, people in slavery. That has been most of our history until maybe World War II, right? And so women have often in history, unfortunately, been crapped on. Like, and and like women being able to stand in their own two feet is such a small and fragile part of the history of female. Yes, there have been strong female characters in history. I'm not trying to say there hasn't been, but the average woman It's like the way they say some people say it's not hard for black women because Luke Beyoncé, she's the exception, not the rule. Yeah. Right? And she's definitely had racism in her life. She's just a billionaire now.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

100%. But I think that must be the same for the gay community. When and I and I am guilty of because I've always had um a um well, I've basically had a gay best friend since I was in my late teens. My parents are incredibly accepting, um, to the point that my dad, who's Jewish, Italian heritage, you know, were and and and were you know, in another life and was in the Navy, in another life, my my mother might be called Steve. Um, so I've never we'd never had any form of um of friction or any kind of idea that being gay was a challenge, an issue. And yet I can remember when a good good friend of mine came out um in his like 1819 and how hard it was for his parents. And I was just so shocked. And so again, I think that sometimes like I'm really that you know, you look at you go, oh well, Elton John's accepted, so it can't be that bad anymore for you guys. But it really but it is, you know, there are so many people that really struggle still with stuff like that, like accepting that, and that doesn't make it fine, you know, just because it's okay for one.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Yeah, but I think I think that's interesting you say that because I think, first of all, it's never been this good, um, and we act like it's never been worse, and I think that we're about to have in the gay community the same problem that the Manosphere is. I think I think we're on the cusp of a kind of reckoning. There's already talks of the LGBs separating from the T pluses and all the rest, but there's a kind of fraction happening because um I think people can accept like where we're at. Like, I like I I live with my partner, both our names are on the list. We're engaged to be married. I'm an out-gay comedian who can tour a show without putting a rainbow flag on my poster to be like, look, I'm a drag queen, like I don't need to play that role anymore. Like, I have a very good life, and being gay is like a footnote of who I am, and I think we're at risk of that becoming quite five years from now. I'm going to be like your master's thesis, but I think we're in trouble because um because some people are obsessed with playing the victim, and I say that with all the humility in the world, there are real victims. I'm not one of them, right? So I I don't actually feel I have a difficult life. I think the people in Iran do is when they're gay, I have Iranian gay friends who had to flee the country because they were going to be murdered by the police. Their family were like nearly persecuted for helping them get out of the country. Like, that's that's the stuff I can march for. I think by insisting that it's and this is the problem that some of the men are having, is that it's actually a really great time to be a man. It's a great time to meet a powerful woman. It's whether you're comfortable enough to be able to accept her, right? And needing someone to have less so you can feel like you have enough is the reason why we have a problem, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

If we need women to be less than what they are for a man to feel like a man, we're fucked. If we need straight people to have less than what they have for gay people to feel like there's a quality, then there's there's going to be a pushback, and I think that's where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Yeah. I mean, God, it's it was only in the 70s that women were allowed pockets.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

That's mental.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Yeah, I think it was the 70s. I don't I know it's the 70s when women were allowed their own cart bank accounts um and check, but but yeah, it was something like 50s or 70s, they weren't allowed pockets before because men thought that women would put secret plans of how to escape in their pockets. So that's why now women have this. Um, if you ever see a woman try on a dress that's got pockets, it's it's this like innate um evolutionary excitement that we get when we go, oh pockets! Now I can escape. Um so like you say, it's it's such a women's rights and women' w women's power and women being powerful women, well not even being, I don't think women even want to be powerful, we just want to be equal, um, is such a new phenomenon. Um and so I've got um a couple of comments from parents here. So we've got um one parent who's got teenage daughters um has commented that they don't think half a manosphere buy into it themselves, but they know that these extreme opinions and values create likes and revenues. She thinks that the majority of sensible people still aren't on board with it and find it all a bit cringe and laughable, which is interesting because she's got two teenage daughters, because I said to her, like, what do you what do your daughters think about all of this? And that's coming from them, so that kind of made me feel a bit better. Um, but that doesn't that doesn't mean parents should be complacent and not have those discussions and keep an eye on what direction their children's opinions are forming. Um, I think it's boy mums have a really hard job of putting a stop to this because let's be honest, if these current manateer crew weren't making millions off it, I doubt their parents would be as supportive, which we said. And she said, I think it's a girl mum's job to show what is and isn't acceptable and what you should and should tolerate. And girl and boy dads should be showing how women should be treated and leading by example, you know. So none of this is new stuff. This is all things that we kind of feel like we should as, you know, growing up, men showing us how to be men, women how to be women.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

But what did then but but it's a it's a time where we're saying, well, what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? I mean, in fairness, like you know, a couple of years ago we were saying that like um you know, we shouldn't put those pressures on people, and the rise of people identifying as non-binary, like came up, and it's like but the interesting thing about that was men who identified as non-binary dressed more feminine and women who dressed more masculine, which again is this kind of like um you know, like stereotyping of the roles that I they're just there and they've been there since history. Women's clothes are shaped like women's clothes because women's bodies are different, that's just a fact, right? Um my clothes sit different because you know, well, I do. I have I'm more booby now than I was in my 20s, thanks to Greg's, but I think like what a few years ago we're having an argument that gender is fluid and it's a it's a social construct, and now we're talking about gender roles again, and I think like there's so much information. What do people believe? I saw a really interesting um interview with Jamila, is it Jamila Jamel? Is that how you say her name? Yes, yeah. And she says, I'm tired of people saying that um boys are um aggressive and loveless and all that like she says they're and not with empathy, she says they're born with all those things and they get taken away. And I I'm a big believer in that. I believe that confidence is not earned either. I think you're born with confidence and it's removed from you by the as you, you know, you've never seen anything more confident than a newborn baby. Do you know what I mean? It's just like like I'm gonna walk, you know what I mean? It's like like there's like that where we don't earn the right to empathy, we don't earn the right to compassion. We we have these things and they're and they're removed through through bad experience, like your imagination. Like now I'm a comedian. It's kind of encouraged that we're kind of over the top and we play. And I'd I had I really struggle about time with no purpose, right? Or time with no like just enjoy myself for the sake of enjoying myself. I still struggle with it. That's all you do when you're younger, like your imagination, you can be anything. I'm going to be an astronaut. So I do think that we're all kind of born right, and then things are removed from us through societal pressures. The power of I had a conversation with my friends' parents, I'm staying with like the things that teachers say to you in school can change the course of your life.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

I mean, I I well, that's why I didn't do maths because my math teacher said I wasn't good enough. Um, but I did say to the to these two people, I asked whether or not schools have kind of talked about this at all, because I think I think it was the Louis Thoreau one, they go into a school. It could be, or it could have been could have been Ross Kemp now. I've watched too many documentaries in preparation for this podcast. Um, and there was a bit of conversation as well around the um the show Adolescence as well, um, with the the young boy who um, you know, in messaging with the different emojis and what they meant and all of that. And they said exactly that, but like, you know, we can all remember sex education and stuff like that. It falls on the hands of teachers who we don't necessarily aren't necessarily giving the right information. And therefore, again, just kind of like, because I said to them, would you welcome schools talking about this type of stuff more? Um, and they said, not really, because what what they're saying, it firstly washes the hands of the parents, um, and secondly, like it's it's a really builds, puts trust into people, and but it really needs to be more about like the culture and the the ecosystem of the home, you know, and like both of the parents I spoke to were like, we watch how our children talk about each other, about the other sexes, about comments about people at school, you know, they make sure that when things are inappropriate, that it's it's called out and it's flagged and it's discussed, not in a way that's like, don't you say that, but hey, why do you think that? And I think that's the most important thing that parents can do is not shame children, but like ask with curiosity and inquire as to where those thoughts are coming from. Because the worst thing you can do, and we're victims of this, is when parents or our elders or people start shaming you for your thoughts, you hide. But that's and you don't say anything. And that's where the date, that's where they get you. That's when they get you on the on the intranet.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

But then before the internet, like you know, it was just society that got them. I mean, my like I'd I really believe that our my parents were repeating the patterns that were passed down to them. I'd I'd because if that if that's true of me, it's true of them, right? Um like I it's not like oh everyone was getting along fine, and then suddenly we're the generation of people who were bullied into alcoholism, right? But I think like but everybody else, it was just a total choice, and they're a bunch of pricks. And so, but I think what's interesting is as life has become more expensive, the need for both parents to be at work, amount of influence that the education system has over your child has grown. And I think whether we whether we want to accept that or not is just the truth. It used to be I I was out with a friend of mine yesterday in London, she's pregnant with her second kid, and she says, you know, when I was younger, there were four of us who grew up in Essex. My mum was a stay-at-home mum, and my dad was an electrician, and we all did just fine. She says, now I can't really afford to have a second kid, but we have we don't want to have just an only child, we want our kid to have a brother or sister, and both of us have to work to afford it, right? Uh which means that, like, you know, she says it's we just have to like they're working both of them at the moment, and she's working three days a week just to pay the childcare, that's all that pays for.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

So she has a good job, and it's like so schools do have more influence over, like, kids go to school extra early now and stay extra late. And just a couple of years ago, when I was last in the UK, the UK government was talking about solving the problem by showing adolescents in schools. That was their big we will show this Netflix dramatized series to cure this problem, which is the definition of male thinking. It is so stupid to think, and this is the world we live in. We think that we can solve things with television programs, right? It is it is the it is kicking the can down the road. Like I've said it once, and you've said, and and I'll say it again, that the solution to all our problems is community, it's uncomfortable conversation, it's non-judgment, it's there is no winner or loser in either side of this uh manosphere. The men are gonna the men that are kind of bamboozled by these online leaders are gonna end up penniless or kill themselves. They're gonna be mega depressed and when they realise they were completely wrong. And the women are being harmed completely by this behaviour, but what looking for someone to start a family with, like that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

And it's divide it's forcing the divide, it's forcing it more than ever. And you know, I I want to end on a a couple of powerful female comments, please, which almost kind of proves the point, though. But you know, Fran, good old Fran, my friend from a lot of the photos of my brand. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

Um, you know, she said I won't do it in her accent like I attempted to, but yeah, because it will your accent will ju it will just be Jamaican. All my accents always come out as Jamaican.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

She does message as if it should be a rap, um, which is what I tried to do last time, but maybe I could do that again. Um, but effectively she said um we need to stop giving these men the airtime they want, and then to rap. Darkness sells news. Look at where that has got us. I won't I won't rap. Look at where that has got us decade after decade. More focus on the lights and the good in the world. I gather in groups of women inside and outside of the rooms. Women are rising and we rise side by side. We are making our own money, building our own communities. Male friends come to me for insights and spirituality. Let's give the men airtime who want to heal, grow, and connect in beauty, not darkness. And I totally agree with that. Let's have a fucking show that's not about the Manosphere, but about the wonderful men that there are in the world, of which there are many. Let's give them these role models. I'm not saying that Thomas Shelby on the Peaky Blinders should have done things differently. But you know, maybe not punching his son the first time he saw him would have been helpful. Literally. But yeah, let's let's have more of these because I still do think, and the reality is we do live in a world where television teaches us all these things. But let's have more TV shows where men are held. Like I watched Um Married at First Light Australia. It's my only naughty thing that I do, otherwise, I'm incredibly highbrow. Um, and the women on this year's series are just awful to each other, they're just awful. Um, and it's been actually surprisingly hard. There are a few men who are also questionable, but there's been some men and some of the kinds where it's just been the men groups that have just been so lovely to each other and like go on. Oh, we've so sorry that you feel that way about yourself, and mental health's really important. And there's these glimmers, is my point, you know. And and the reality is that these TV shows do show our kids how to show up in the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

But we need to watch them, we need to watch them. Like, we don't get to sit at home and watch murder and uh kidnap and rape, true crime documentaries, and then wonder why the dark side of the manosphere is being documented. That we're all we all watched it. That's why. If we if there was a documentary called Lovely Men, uh nobody would we we we consume this television as a response to our purchases?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

Yeah, exactly, which started first. It's and it feeds each other. It's like that um that snake in is it mythology that eats its own tail, you know, it's exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:50

That was me in my twenties.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

Alright. Why do we have to always end this podcast? It's such a gay note. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

But can I just say, look, that's why I'm here for it? I'm the I'm the comic relief. But like, to say what your friend was saying as well. Like, I actually think like there are more good than bad. I I have to move through life believing there's more good than evil because I don't know any evil people, right? Like, I just don't, not as friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

I'm just kind of querying it. No, I don't think I do either.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

I don't think so, but I don't I surround myself by the right people, and that's where it starts. It does start with us, like starts with who the conversations we're willing to have. If you were infuriated um by what you saw in the manosphere, then start creating the opposite. Like that's I want to be a light. So as a comedian, most comedians are having a very hard time at the moment, feeling like it's worth putting on shows because they feel like, oh, how do I how do we make people laugh in a time that's so hard? Which can I just say is the definition of get over your fucking self. Like, I've never been so much material right now, but not just that, like, I've never been so enthusiastic to get out there and do my job. I'm like, I that we need more laughter, and that's why I am currently on tour, right? But it's like because it's my job to make we need this more than ever. If all we if all we had was the bad news and we just gave up, right? We'd be that we'd be absolutely screwed. And if this new Lou Theroo thing made you really mad and you're like, I know I'm I'm not that man, then come out and show us.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

Exactly, exactly like what Daniel Sloss said that all of that, let's instead of letting it go, it's not it's not all men, like then show us because that's how change happens. And when you did say about we don't know evil people, I used to when I was not well, and again, that's why I can really in a weird way empathize, empathize with the kind of guys that are drawn to these HS TikToky people because when I was so unwell, that was that really did very interesting conversations. I don't think we solved it, but I think we've hopefully got some.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

We're never gonna solve anything, we're never gonna do that. That's not what we're here to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

What? I was here to solve things.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

I know why you're here. You're here for quotes to put on t-shirts.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

There's just I'm here for t-shirt quotes and and and a boyfriend. Um, that's why I put my good shirt on.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

Um she washed the collar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:31

Oh no, literally, yeah, no, from collar down, it's a shit show. Uh literally. Um, I don't think I got any good t-shirt quotes in this episode. It was all far too serious. Um great. Thank you, everybody, who sent in their um their um thoughts as well. There were even more thoughts that we couldn't get through, um, but really interesting. Um, next week we haven't decided what we're gonna talk about, but I might just throw this at you because it's come up a couple of times. Um In conversation this week, we've wanted to talk about the wellness industry and the weaponization of wellness and being a well-balanced person and how people can use that as a way to kind of be better than others and just that whole identity of I am sober, I am well, I am boundaried. But how people manospheric, exactly. I think that that might be nice. We could talk about that whole manosphere, manifesting, I'm trying to say. Manifesting wellness, that whole shebang. I'll put it into something a little bit more uh succinct, but I think we'll talk about that next week. Um it'll be great to have your guys' thoughts about the wellness industry and the way that it's commercialised, weaponized, and all of that fun stuff. Um, as ever, everything's in the show notes. Uh, link for Ian's shows that are coming up, a link to buy us a coffee if you've gained from this hour of listening to us on an emotional level. It wasn't for free. Please buy us a coffee. There is a link in the chat. Follow us on Instagram at TooSober for This Podcast. Um, I think that's everything. Anything from you, sir?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

Nothing from me. I am uh yeah, sober smugging getting back to work today. Leo is leaving to go back home to her dogs in Barcelona. So I I um I can hear him chapping at the door because we actually need to get a move on.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:31

Get out. I was gonna say, otherwise you'll have Rascal in the manosphere, and that's gonna be a whole new episode. The de-radicalisation of Rascal.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

That's uh I know, can you imagine? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

My God, well look, it's always a pleasure. And yeah, everybody, please, if you enjoyed the show, follow us, share us. Yes. Our egos need it. Um thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Yeah, we love you all. Bye.