Episode 5 : Why Does Everyone Sound Like a Therapist Now? Therapy Speak, Boundaries & The Unregulated Wellness Industry

In this episode of Too Sober For This, recovery advocate Shell Righini and comedian Iain Anderson take on a very 2026 problem: 

Why does everyone sound like a therapist now?

From TikTok to group chats, therapy language has gone mainstream. Words like “boundaries”, “triggers”, “narcissist”, and “holding space” are everywhere. But are they helping us understand ourselves… or just helping us win arguments?

Shell and Iain unpack the rise of wellness culture and the explosion of self-help language online. What started as tools for healing are now often used as shields, weapons, and personality traits.  They explore how therapy-speak is being misused, overused, and sometimes completely stripped of its meaning. From calling people “toxic” instead of having hard conversations, to diagnosing exes with zero qualifications, to setting “boundaries” that are actually just control.

This episode gets into the grey area between genuine growth and performative self-awareness, and asks whether we’re becoming more emotionally intelligent… or just better at sounding like we are.

In this episode

• Why therapy language is everywhere right now
• The difference between real boundaries and control
• How words like “narcissist” and “triggered” are being misused
• Wellness culture and the business of self-improvement
• Social media, identity, and performative healing
• When self-awareness becomes avoidance
• The fine line between growth and superiority
• Why not everything needs a label
• What actually helps vs what just sounds good

Get ready for uncomfortable truths, sharp observations, dark humour, and at least a few moments where you’ll wonder if you’ve ever said “I’m protecting my energy” and really meant “I don’t want to deal with this.” 😅

Connect With Us

@toosoberforthispodcast

Shell Righini - @shell_righini  Iain Anderson - @iainanderson.comedy

Traumedy Show - https://iainandersoncomedy.com/

Listen to Shell’s podcast We Recover Loudly here on Spotify  

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome to Too Sober for This, the podcast with your host Dean Anderson and Michelle Raghini. And today we are talking about the wellness industry. I'm very excited to talk about it because I identify as being in it.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Are you the after photo?

SPEAKER_04 0:20

I'm the before.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Yeah, the before. That's it. The before. I can be the after. Um, yeah, I mean This was one of the topics that we connected on before we even started recording that we both realized that we had a little B in our bullet. So I think we've both bought our soapboxes today, haven't we? So we'll be jumping on those later in the episode.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

I think we probably started on our soapbox this time a year ago when I recorded your podcast. We recover loudly. Like I think my soapbox, I took it to France with me.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

I think um considering that the the two of us are potentially not the picture, the picture of the wellness industry, the the billboard of the wellness industry, the fact that we've got so many opinions on it is maybe tad a tad ironic.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Um or is it to quote our previous episode were no Russell brand.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

No, not even pre-Russell brand, thank God. Um but before we get into this incredibly juicy topic, um, every week we like to reflect on the past seven days and share with our listeners the most sober wanker thing we've done, even though we did not do this last week.

SPEAKER_04 1:39

Sometimes we reflect and we don't record it.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

That's what happened. So after you, what what's your most sober wanker thing you've done in the last seven days? I mean I've seen you in the last seven days, which was quite exciting.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

I know it was lovely. It was it was very brief. Yeah, I had a show in London and um and Shell was there with her crew. I think you there was about ten or twelve people there because of you, like the Shell Brigade, yeah, for sure. So my my my partner thanks you for my ability to be able to pay half the rent this month.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

They don't come when I ask them to a birthday party, but they'll come to your show, so it's weird.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

You should charge them tickets.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Is that right, Kip? Oh, that's so true, that commitment. And we're actually gonna talk a bit about committing to things later on. Ticket sales.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

So, my my most sober wanky thing um was I I mean, I have to like I I often wear my sober and smug socks from your uh I have the sober and smug and the sober cunt ones. I wear the sober smug ones often when I'm travelling, uh because I always buy myself extra legroom. And that feels like a very sober decision. It sounds weird, but I would have never I was definitely the person getting on the plane with as many things as I could in my hand luggage and then would try and flirt my way into the exit roll for the extra leg room. Like I just assumed that this gorgeous drunk with red wine lips would be gifted an extra leg room seat because in the event of an emergency, that's who you want opening the doors. The guy who's inebrated. Um, and so I love like being able to travel comfortably is like a uh sober wanky thing I like to do.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah, well, it really links into a little bit of what we've talked about in previous episodes. It's like self-care kind of vibes that doesn't necessarily appear on like self-care, but having the money put aside to pay for the extra leg room to ensure that you're comfortable. It like, do you know, that was probably like what, four bottles of wine worth of cash? Which, you know, like making those decisions is I think, yeah, being having the finances for it as well. I mean, you've already given us all a travel hack, um, which is cry when you are checking in, and then you get to go to like business class.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

I found out recently that doesn't apply to easy jet flights, so don't be don't be fooled.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Were you sobbing in London on Sunday? And they were just like, just uh everyone's crying, it's an easy jet flight, and you're not you're not new and special.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

And they said you already have speedy boarding, so there's nothing to cry for.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Literally, as a side note, it's so frustrating because they do that whole priority boarding thing, and it's like, oh, it's only an extra tenner. Well, that means that 99% of the plane do the priority boarding. So, where's the priority when 99% of the fucking plane are in the priority queue? It really pisses me off. It's like you need to limit that shit. Do they not understand exclusivity?

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Yeah, we're all God's children. We're all God's children.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

I don't know. Honestly, anyway, that'll that's for another episode.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

And what about you, Shale? Sober wanky thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Oh god, honestly, I am peeking all over the place. Like, if I wasn't me, I would be either absolutely enthralled and worship me or just think I was an absolute twat. Um, because I have bottled my first batch of kombucha, which in itself is really, really wanky. Bottled it into um those little glass swing top bottles as well, you know, so they look very hipster. Um I have my tomato plants uh seeding, like I've got little sprouts, so is my cogettes. Um, so have my, what else have I planted? At the minute it's a fuckload of tomatoes. Um cucumbers, my slacking cucumbers, they sprouted. Um it's really exciting. I know, right? Get up in the morning and go like say hi to my little plants. I bought a greenhouse for them.

SPEAKER_04 5:52

You bought a greenhouse.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Honestly, I bought and I bought some um like uh what are they called? Like, you know, like flower bed thingies that you put in the garden, you put the soil in. Because I've just got a concrete garden outside, so I've got these like freestanding, like honestly, the amount I've spent on these tomatoes, I mean when I finally have this tomato salad, it'll be like £58 a mouthful.

SPEAKER_04 6:17

Ironically, the only house you can afford is a greenhouse as well, right? Me too.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Oh, you're rolled, but true. Oh my god, does that mean I'm on the property ladder? Am I on the property ladder now? Yeah. Oh my god, wait till I tell my parents. They'll be so proud.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

It's more of a property lattice. I uh I I I I can't even afford a Lego house. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Well, there you go. Well, Lego's expensive in fairness. I've got a couple of friends that collect it and it's um if you ever if you ever no, I was about to say if you ever get a rob somewhere, you want to go to theirs, but they do listen to this show. I will not rob you. Um so yeah, I mean, I really feel like I'm kind of peaking at the minute. I've got my breakfast in a in a jar this morning as well. That feels pretty, pretty up there. Not only that, I made this breakfast last night. Last night, you know, overnight oats. Overnight oats. I feel like that's quite peak sober wanker when you think about a meal the day before and like prep for it. Like, that's up there.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

Yeah. Like I like I I feel like that, I feel like that every time I take something out of the freezer to death.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

I know exactly what you mean. I've got I've got I've got a half a side of salmon at the minute, which has been in there for about a year, because every time I open the freezer, I just go, oh, I was so good that day. Just like when I'm feeling a little bit shit about myself, I'll just go open the freezer door and be like, You're the girl that remembered to freeze salmon. You can do shit. You got this girl. My affirmation salmon. Oh my god, that's going on a t-shirt.

SPEAKER_04 7:56

That's going on a t-shirt.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Um, so yeah, I just think, well, I'm really proud of us both. We're both really peaking. Um, I don't even know where we're gonna go from there in terms of our wankiness, but we'll see you next week. Um before we get into this incredible uh topic of episode, um, I have got a message from one of our dear listeners, um, who is a mutual friend of us both, um, called um Beatrice B. And um I really wanted to read it out because I really love what she said. So she says she just listened to the money episode, which is not last week's one, the one before, uh, episode three. Just listened to your money episode, never felt more seen. I thought I was just struggling job-wise and how I make my money wise because of being a recent grad. But I guess it sucks for a lot of people, especially artists, because we never have these kind of chats, i.e., the chat that we were having. It was really good to hear your perspective, and I feel the exact same. Absolutely adore the podcast. You two are absolute powerhouses, and of course, both very funny. Isn't that sweet?

SPEAKER_04 9:01

That's so nice.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

That's so nice. I mean, I'm not sure when she said that we're both very funny, but yeah, otherwise.

SPEAKER_04 9:07

I think we're both I think we're both. I I could I could do better, I could try harder.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

You did get my mum's review.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Yeah, who so yeah, no, and Lovely Bee, uh Lovely Beatrice is doing her own show. Um, actually, one of the one of the great privileges of my life was when I met her when I did my show in London last year, and you brought another ton of people, thus helping fund that trip. Um, and we got to record the ministry and all that cool stuff. Um, she wrote to me after and I'd said to her just in passing, if you want help with your show, I'm happy to help mentor you or something like that. And that's exactly what we did. We started having uh calls every week, and she took her show to the same venue we were in on Saturday, The Glitch in London, and has now been done a couple of performances, and I will be seeing her when I'm in Brighton for the Brighton Fridge, and she's also going to be there doing the French.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Is she? Oh wow. I love how Bee was my friend, and yet you now know more about what's going on in her life. I only know that she's moved because she's in the same gratitude group as me. I'm like, oh, okay, she's there. Oh, that's lovely though. But it is, it's a really beautiful thing that like the way that and we talk about this a lot. It it's community and connection, and it's you know, I know Bee through recovery. I've known her since her day zero, and you know, watching her blossom over the last three and a half, I think she is now, years sober. But you know, it's just been an absolute, just yeah, it's been wonderful because she's so young, she came in at 19, and it's just been an absolute privilege to watch somebody so young recognise that their life was going down a path that wasn't suiting them, and putting in so much action and to go to university, and you know, it's just wonderful. And like you say, then to see her flourish in something that she's so passionate about. She's done it in London, she did it in Hereford, so she performed in front of a lot of the first people that again from the runes, and it's just yeah, it's lovely. Um one's asked me to mentor them yet, which is weird. Um, I'm sure my time will come. Um, so yeah, that was I just wanted to share that because um I think that it's nice to know that our listenership has increased from Fabio and my mum to now Beatrice.

unknown 11:22

Hey!

SPEAKER_04 11:24

And actually, shout out shout out to my friend who's an artist, uh Leela, who loves our podcast.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Shout out to Tony, who I met at your show on Saturday, and he came up to me and he went, Hey, are you Shell? And I was like, Oh my god, I thought I'd paid him back, but no, it was because he knew me from the podcast. I love that. I was like, Oh god, yeah. I was like, Tony, I'm I'm I don't want other people to know I'm here. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 11:51

Huge glasses and a weapon call.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

I'm trying to be incognito, but yes, that is me. Right, should we talk about the subject?

SPEAKER_04 12:00

Yeah, crush wellness, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

So last week we have set a bar quite high because you dropped some um some knowledge and research all about the manosphere um and basically put Mel Robbins to shame. So what I've done is very quickly Googled uh um asked um the intranet for three facts about the wellness industry, and they're actually quite shocking. First up, the wellness industry is worth over five trillion globally, according to the Global Wellness Institute. Um, it's uh recently hit around 5.6 trillion and is still growing fast. That's mental. Mental. That's that's crazy. Um second fact, which doesn't feel like it's a surprise, that's for sure to me. Most wellness advice online isn't regulated at all. Shock horror. Unlike, but I say shock horror, but actually I think a lot of people don't realise that. Um, unlike medicine or therapy, a huge chunk of the wellness space, coaches, influencers, healers, and they've gone bunny ears, have no formal regulation or governing body. Um, and then I've just realized the third fact is a little bit like the second fact. Damn you, internet making me look stupid. Umly a small percentage of wellness influencers actually have these relevant qualifications. Um, research looking at health and wellness influences has found that fewer than one in five have any formal qualifications in the areas that they are advising on.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

Of course. What a shocker.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

It's not a shocker, but it I know for a lot of people it is.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

Well, like the thing about it is like I have no problem with people who are not qualified being on the internet. Well, but I what I do have a problem with is you selling monetizing that advice as though it's legit. Um that that's kind of my that's kind of my issue with it, is when I mean we've seen this happen pre-internet. Who remembers Dr. Jillian McKeefe? Dr. Pooh? Yeah, Dr. Poot, now she first of all, have you seen her daughter as like a wannabe singer now and calling herself a Neppo baby? Imagine being a Neppo baby because your mum is the Pooh Doctor. Uh do you get what I mean? Like, I feel a little bit like with Gwyneth Paltro's children as well. Like, are you going to be handing out fanny fanny candles for Christmas? Like, come and smell my mum's fanny candle. Um fanny candles is so much better than smells like my vagina. Anyway, like uh No, wait, wait, Fanny Flames.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

That's what you would call it, Gwen.

SPEAKER_04 14:47

Is this burning?

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Oh, my burning lips.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

I've always wanted to open a mature lesbian bar called Chapped Lips. Anyway, I uh Oh day. So Dr. Jelly McKeith, okay, had a television programme, released books, and gave all this health information. She actually, my good friend Michelle McManus was on her show. Uh yeah, they had her losing weight, and like they had I'll I'm looking I'm not saying that she was wrong with wanting to give health advice, but she implied she was a doctor, and when they did some digging into her, which is easier now than it was back then, and they still manage it, she had like an online fake doctorate from like a chiropractor clinic in Arizona or some madness like that. Yeah, and so then they had to, but she had supplements and everything saying Dr. Jillian McKeith.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

I was gonna say, she called herself Dr. Jillian McKeith. We didn't assume it.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Yeah, she called herself it, and the implication would have been medical or nutritional doctor, right? Um, it's like I love um the meditations of Dr. Joe Dispenser, but his doctorate is from being a chiropractor. So he's like, in my opinion, where ya? Drop the DR.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

I just well, I've got a friend who has a doctorate and she's a dancer and um and a choreographer, and she got her doctorate last year, so technically, so she is a doctor. And I don't know, but you're right, that doesn't mean that she can now write a book on um yeah, on fermentation benefits to the gut health, but she can technically say buy Dr. Bub Blah Bubba because she is a doctor. I mean, that's the main motivation to do a a PhD for me is so that I can make everyone call me doctor.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

You could have a doctorate and t-shirt printing or something, and then they'd be let out on the plane. Do we have a doctor on board? And you'd be like, I was here, Dr. Rugini to the rescue.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Oh my god, and because my character is very much one of those that says yes and figures it out afterwards, that's the reason I now have a t-shirt business and have fucking clue what I'm doing. It's because I said I could.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

You're kinda like you're kind of like the female version of the lead from the movie Catch Me If You Can.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

I do though, but I hey, look, I think that there is a lot to be said for having confident or like blind, blind belief in yourself. Yeah, I'm sure that's where that comes from. I mean, what is your experience of wellness? You said um a couple of episodes ago that you made a comment about being a raw vegan, and I was also a raw vegan before um just because I thought maybe dairy was the reason that I was losing my mind, not alcohol or drugs. Um, can you remember that whole raw vegan movement? I mean, you must have, you were one. That was what, 20, 2010 or something like that, when suddenly everyone was vegan?

SPEAKER_04 17:32

No, I was a bit later. I discovered, and I'm going to name them because they're very hard, they're a harmful person, but there was a people online called um Freely the Banana Girl and a guy called Durian Rider. They were a couple, and they had this kind of online follow. And I watched one of their videos and I was completely sold. The thing is that Freely the Banana Girl and Durian Rider, it was like cycle, eat 30 bananas a day, like blah blah blah. And but the stuff they were saying was about the how bad for the environment the the meat industry was, and and we know this is true, right? We just know that we're not getting away with it's there's nothing maybe like is there anything wrong with eating meat? Vegans will say yes, non-vegans will say no, but the way we produce it is definitely harmful for the environment, right? We know that's a fact. So, like the everything we do is harmful for the environment, right? Because of all the packaging and blah blah blah. So I kind of bought into it, but also I was in a time in my life where I really wanted answers, and I used to rack up lines of coke and tell everybody beef was destroying the the earth, and everyone's like, Where'd you get your coke from?

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Do you mean like volcanic actually?

SPEAKER_04 18:43

From a provincial from a local from a local seller, farmer's market in East London. So it's like, but I really I really wanted to believe, and also when you joined this online community, like everybody was so encouraging. There was like a blog called 30 bananas- I'm actually just remembering this as I talk about it. There was a thing called 30 Bananas a day. It was like a blog, and you signed up and you could meet people in your area, and we used to meet up and have these picnics where we would just eat dates all the time. And my digestion was so bad because of the booze and the coke as well, but it was so bad. And but we all convinced ourselves that it was part of the process, and actually, we were just living off of sugary fruit.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

But were you the only one that was also living off cocaine and alcohol?

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Were the rest of them all uh all it's like sober people telling you to smoke weed? I know so many sober people that just smoke so much weed, yeah, and they were like, Yeah, I don't I'm sober, and I'm like, But you're absolutely out, you're not, I can smell it, the weed coming off your skin.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Yeah, that's not the smell of dates and bananas, Cedric.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Yeah, and he was definitely called Cedric.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Honestly, but not by birth. Um, but yeah, I mean, like, so the whole wellness thing was certainly wasn't something that we had growing up. I can remember growing up um those little bath pearls from the body shop and white musk, and you know, that was our equivalent of that kind of in terms of self-care was going to the body shop and getting a white musk um body spray. Um I don't remember my mum ever sitting and doing a face mask. I don't remember, but dieting in the dieting industry was was quite big.

SPEAKER_04 20:21

I was thinking about this in prep for the for the episode that when anything has the word industry attached to it, then there's a financial benefit to you never getting there, right? So when we think about cults and the levels within a cult, I'm very interested in cults. I'm going to say Scientology, and they're probably gonna come for me. Like, I'll know I've made it, but then Scientologists should set up a hate website about me. But like the What a goal to have. What a goal to have, yeah. But like this idea of like always moving the goalposts until enlightenment or until like you know, self-actualization or whatever the thing is. The thing is with the diet industry, is like it it needs you to never quite get there, right? Um, if it's our healthy weight, it should be a natural state. And for a lot of people that are underlying illnesses, there's also like where our bodies just sit at different weights. There's then in came, which I think in some way was weaponized. You know how we said in the Manosphere episode that a lot of it comes from a very good place. So if we think about weight loss as being weight loss for health, I think that's a good thing. When it becomes uh looks maxing, or like um now what we're seeing, people taking uh injections to be super skinny because it's fashionable. Like when when your body is a trend, you're in trouble. And the trend we saw a few years ago, I hate to say, was body positivity good thing, but then people Started eating and gaining weight deliberately as an almost like a protest where they were making themselves. I mean, a lot of these body positivity icons, like a woman died at the age of 37 due to weight-related illnesses. So it's like when anything becomes extreme, it becomes a problem. And I think that wellness, it became very not fashionable to say lose weight or you know, take care of your health. And when we use the word wellness, it sounds a lot more like nicer to us. So we have really unwell like celebrity people like Gwyneth Paltrow promoting hardly eating a thing and living off bone broth using the word wellness, and everything, the the road to getting well is very expensive, right? It's this overpriced access to being the best possible you. She relies on you being a repeat customer, right? And like all industries rely on you being a repeat customer, the health industry, the medical industry, all these things rely on you coming back more than once and staying. And I think what it does is it taps into people's vulnerability. I think it taps into people's taps into your insecurities, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:21

See, it taps into exactly what we've said in all of the previous exercises, our desperate need for connection and community and acceptance. And it's because, like you say, it creates this fakeness of tribes, and I'm I'm I'm now part of a vegan tribe, I'm now a raw tribe, I'm now part of, you know, and and I and I don't necessarily think that's always negative. I've got quite a few friends that do cross crossfit, and um these people who've made friendships with these crossfitters, and you know, they go out, and like you were saying about your banana weirdos, like you would go for picnics and you know, talk about dates. Um, like there is that, it feels like a lot of that undercurrent is like you say, it's goodness because it's just people desperately wanting to connect with others. Um I think, however, when it becomes, like you say, that weaponization or that way of excluding others, and whether that's from a group or whether it's by using language to exclude others, you know, or you know, I've had people, um, we're gonna probably, I'm sure, talk about boundaries. I've got a couple of voice notes from um people who have called in, both of which mention boundaries. But you know, I've experienced when people have cancelled on me last minute because they're having a self-care moment, they're like, oh, do you know what? I've actually I've got to put a boundary in with myself because um I'm overdoing it this week and therefore um I'm not gonna be able to see you today. And and that's for me where this whole kind of like, and I know that's not necessarily talking about the wellness industry, but it's it's it's in the similar sphere in that we're taking things that are supposed to be about goodness in a way, but I've noticed that more and more people are using it as a way to exclude others, to belittle others, um, and also to excuse kind of rude behavior. Um, and that's again, that's that's where that whole like um well like with the Manosphere episode when these things that start out as good just become so disjointed and so corrupted, um, and used in a way that's just it's quite sad. I mean, have you ever had anybody say to you, Oh, I can't see you this afternoon? I mean, I've got to be honest, I've also done it myself. I have done it in the past, said, I'm sorry, I can't see you this afternoon, um, I've got to have it, I'm doing it an afternoon. I I do have a chronic condition, which I am very, very guilty of constantly saying yes to things when I should say no. But I wasn't the first to do it. People did it to me, and then I thought, you know what, fuck it. I'm gonna do it to other people. But that's how it, you know, happens.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

You know, I I get what you mean. I I tell you what, like, I've had that happen to me a lot with people in recovery, and the I if I have to cancel, I will say I have overscheduled myself. I'm sorry. Like, I don't I like because I don't have a chronic condition, like I don't I don't have a medical reason for why I'm tired other than my own bad planning. And so I I very consciously take responsibility for my overs. Like I had a so when I was about two years sober, I was getting I was running out of time all the time. It still happens, it nearly happened this morning. And just before we recorded this episode, I was like, Shell, and blah. Shell said to me, Oh, we can do it another time and gave me an out. I did not take it, I did not take the out because this is something I love to do, um, is to talk to three listeners and also um because I I commit this is one of my commitments, and when I show up for my commitments, I feel good about myself and I'm proud of what I achieve. I have never wanted to do anything. I never wanted to go to school, I never wanted to go to work, I never want to get on stage. Like, I never I don't want to do those things. I become so overwhelmed by emotions and feelings. I want to lie on the couch with us. There are three dogs out of shot right now that are coaxing me to come back. One of them is wearing a one of them is wearing a t-shirt.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

So like honestly, having dogs are an absolute fucker. Milo lies on the sofa all day, like Kate Winslit and Titanic going, do you know there's a new box set on Netflix? We could just take popcorn.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

When was the last time we watched Netflix in child? No, I think that I think for me, like we're what we are seeing. I'm a big fan of a woman I follow on on Instagram called Raquel, and she talks about the over therapizing of people and how everybody now has mistaken hardship as a trauma and and and walls being boundaries, right? Um, and also this idea of like always having to protect your peace and people believing that everything is about making you comfortable. And I have to say that like I'm constantly uncomfortable, and it's why I've been able to change careers in the last couple of years, it's why I'm able to stay in a relationship. Um, because I don't think his job in a relationship is to do everything I need to feel comfortable. Like we literally talk, and the the thing that disappoints me the most is when people in 12-step programs do it, because we literally recite the serenity prayer at every meeting, and people still come out of those meetings and think that we all revolve around them, and that's why when we were talking in the last episode about Russell Brand, my expectations for someone in recovery is just slightly higher than civilians, right? Because I was talking to my best friend um this morning, he's also in a programme, of course. He has his best friend's an alcoholic, but um, like I always have to remind him you changed and developed yourself, your family did not, and sometimes that feeling of being like, Well, I'm better now, what are you gonna do to catch up? Well, you're not like nothing, and I and I move through life very conscious of the fact that just because I'm working a program and I'm working on myself doesn't mean everyone else has to kind of get it. Like, I think it's kind of my job to navigate like a world where we're dealing with people who are not always well, but also back to the whole the the boundaries thing. I find that people um say that instead of saying, sorry, I fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I it's interesting what you were just saying about that because and I'm I don't know now if I'm gonna come across as a bad person, but here we go. Um I one of my boundaries, which I think is a boundary, but now I'm questioning it. But one of my boundaries is that I will I will meet people where they're at, and I have invested a lot of time, money, sweat, tears. Um, you know, just anyone that's been through recovery um knows that putting down the substance is the very first thing. Doing a recovery program is fantastic, 12 steps is awesome, but again, it's not it's not the end of it, it's the beginning. I worked with a nutritionist, I had therapy, I've had loads of different therapy, and also what happens when you come into recovery normally is that you start to actually go to the doctors and be honest, um, so that I've had different diagnoses now. So I've had my neurodivergence diagnoses, I've um I got fibromyalgia about the same time as I got um came into recovery. Um so I've kind of like, but I've I've put a lot of time effort into becoming the slightly more fully functioning person that I present today. And I feel like if you haven't done, yeah, like I do feel like if you haven't done that kind of same level of work on yourself, then I'm not gonna talk to you at that level. Like I'm gonna have surface conversations with you, I'm gonna be do small talk. I mean, does that make me sound like a massive cunt? Yeah, maybe. No, I've got it. I don't know. Because that but that the boundary, that's what it means. For me, it feels like a self-preservation boundary because I feel that when I go really deep into conversations with people that haven't necessarily done that same level or or indeed any work, that I'm actually pouring from my cup and I'm emptying my cup. Whereas I like to have conversations with people where it's there's an equalness, or you know, I've walked away from conversations with people feeling quite upset and empty because I feel like all I've done is pour into it and they've do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 32:13

I totally get what you mean, but then I always think that when I have an experience like that, that's exactly how people used to feel around me.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Oh, yeah, you're so right.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

I hate to say it, but you haven't been this way your whole life. You've run into your old self.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Oh, and I don't like them.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

I know, and that's that's what that's why I feel uncomfortable around those conversations, because I'm like, oh my god, I'm trying to save this person. I'm I'm literally screaming into a black hole. And that and that's into the void. But what a blessing that we're both now in a place in our life where we get to be really choosy about the company we keep. Uh like because when I was drinking, I did not get to choose who I hung out with.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

That's very true. Because when I was drinking, all I hung out with was myself, and the she was not well. And yeah, I suppose you're right, the quality of the people that I used to hang out with was just me. And uh, and that was a very, very low quality person. And um, yeah, okay, fine. You've given me thought to reflect, and apparently I'm a terrible human.

SPEAKER_04 33:23

Yeah, but you know, you're not a you're not a terrible human because what what like what I wish, right? I try not to have regrets in recovery, but one of the things I've said this a couple of times, and I think I said this on your podcast, um, that I wish people had dropped me sooner. Like, I'm I I I am the byproduct of my own consequences, and when people protected me from them, they actually didn't help me. And what I think is really interesting, right? So I was watching this um Yo this Twisted Yoga documentary last night, um, it's on Apple TV. I'd listened to the podcast last year. The the podcast is actually better, right? Because I listened to the podcast last year when I was in Prague, and uh because I had nothing to do there between shows, so I just I listened to a whole podcast in two days. But like what's what was in the podcast that wasn't in the the television series was the the one of the girls, the girl that the podcast is about, her family are on it, and they're saying we saw what was happening, but we didn't want to get in the way because we thought we would lose her completely, right? Yeah, and I think that's what's very insidious about like some of these wellness, like they give people like a one-answer, a sense of belonging. These things we can agree are good. Often these creepy wellness um like communities, um, often not all the time, because I did see a documentary last year or a year before about the orgasm uh cult. Um it was like um for women, it was like mutual masturbation, it was teaching men how to basically give a woman an orgasm, and essentially it was women prostituting themselves on behalf of the organization. Yeah, you should have to be.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Was it the next Nyxium? No, it's not that one.

SPEAKER_04 35:23

No, that's someone, no, it's someone else. It was called something, yeah, and it was run by a woman, and this woman was saying that um the rape didn't exist. Oh and she had this bit of a few.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Well wasn't it just like a fucking miscommunication?

SPEAKER_04 35:42

Well, she was saying, like, oh, I want to get a t-shirt made that said I was raped, and now all I have is this victim story. It was like, and all these women like internalized it, you know? Wow, and so a lot of the time though, nine times out of ten, at the top of these, a lot of these gurus are men, and uh Ednexium and all that sort of stuff, and they have all these women captive, um, it basically becomes a harem. Like there's a like the LDS um church documentary I saw. There's a new thing about to come out, Netflix, the follow-up to the last one. And it's always a man with multiple wives, and these like women being manipulated. Like it is people are lost, they find this leader-esque, you know, um powerful or identifies as powerful men, they're usually not very attractive men, but somehow very intellectual sounding. And the next thing you have these women being abused. Now, the reasons why people have come into these things, like hot yoga, bikram yoga, the guy that started that has got cases against him. They it starts from a very good place and it taps into people looking for answers, and it turns into something really insidious. And I almost maybe you can answer this, but it's like is it we've talked a bit about this in the money episode, so then I'm sure like how money and power does weird things to people, and when these people go, you don't become an expert at yoga because you decided two weeks ago and you did an online course, like it's a lifelong commitment to become good enough to start a cult, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah, like there's quicker ways to go about being an abusive person.

SPEAKER_04 37:32

So have you gone into it like really from a good place, or have you been using spirituality to masquerade what was already predatory behavior?

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yeah, but I don't know, I almost feel like sometimes it's a bit of a maybe we should do an episode on cults actually, because we're both very fascinated in that. Um I feel like a little bit like when we were drinking or drugging, and like it's there's always these lines, and you push the lines and you you see the the what happens, the repercussions. So in the rooms you'll be like, I would never drink in the morning. And then one morning you do, and it's almost like you're daring yourself to like, well, I'll just do, I'll just do it, see what happens. And it almost feels sometimes like these people like they're like daring themselves to just push themselves that little bit further, and then that what's the reaction? And the reaction is nothing because there's this whole infrastructure that's starting to grow around them, and like you say, I think that these people obviously have a predatory mindset anyway, because otherwise, like we would never even have those thought processes, I would hope. Um, but again, it's that it's that gaining of ego and that gaining of admiration that makes you start to believe your own bullshit. And I think one of the worst things that can happen is for a person to believe their own bullshit, because the moment that crosses, and we see that within the world of celebrity, we've talked about Mr. Russell Brown, he's had far too much hair time on this podcast. Um, but you know, we see that. And and actually, you and I are very, very lucky in as much as that we have got friends and family that will never ever let us believe our own bullshit. And and I think you see that again in the world of celebrity, where you've you have these celebs and not to completely tangent, there's such a difference in the way that some celebs come across. I love Tom Holland, I think he's great, he's a British actor, he's the son of the guy from bloody TGI Chris Evans' little buddy, and I just love that. And he always comes across, uh he's also one of us, um, but he also always comes across as such a lovely down-to-earth guy. You never see him in papers doing things, you never see him falling out of clubs, you never see him interviewed, talking about things that he has absolutely no, you know, um background in and stuff like that. And and I have a funny feeling it's because when he goes back to his parents' home, they probably make him do the washing up. And do you know what I mean? Like they don't allow him to be Spider-Man when he's at home. And and I think it's very much the same with all of this wellness and stuff like that. And exactly like we were saying for them in the Manosphere episodes, it's like we look for people who have got this propens these, I don't know, pre dispreciation or it's really insecure people that are so desperate to vessel admiration, they see these cracks within these things that begin as something good and wholesome, and and they just they exploit it. And because people are desperate, it happens. Um, so I'm gonna play a voice note from um Claire Roche, um, who is a comedian friend of yours.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

That you're asking about therapy and therapy language and self-improvement and how it actually makes other people feel. Um I'm a comedian, but um, I'm also a yoga and wellness teacher. Um, I've been doing that on and off over the last 15 or 20 years or so, and I've seen a lot of change in that industry. And it's interesting that I'm using the word industry because once you attach that word to anything, it becomes about making money. So we had music for hundreds of years and then an industry developed. Um, and now that's about making money. And so the same thing has kind of happened in the wellness world. Um, it is a money-making industry. So we are all wellness customers, which is a really sad thing in one way. Good in some respect, but sad in other ways. Um, so that's one aspect of it that I have found interesting. Um also, yeah, I have had therapy language used on me by people on and off over the years. And when I hear it, the language is so different from the language they would normally use in their day-to-day that I recognize it as therapy words that they've pulled out of their therapy sessions. And I totally understand that they're trying to use that in order to protect themselves in certain situations, but it almost sounds as though they're not aware of how to use that language appropriately when communicating with other people. Um, there's uh the words are large, they're um, you know, almost scientific-based in some ways. So the other thing I've noticed, we don't come together to communicate anymore, we come together to connect. And that is a word associated with computers. We don't love each other anymore.

SPEAKER_04 42:37

Well, thank you, Claire.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

I know when she said that about we don't and we've used the word connect in this episode. I use the word connect all the time. I think one of my email addresses is even connect at um, but Richard says we don't connecting is what computers do. That really stopped me.

SPEAKER_04 42:54

Yeah, but then do can do computers get that from spirituality first? Chick near the egg. But like I think what language is very important too, and I totally agree that I've had people throw therapy language at me and I've just gone like that to them. Like, I've for the listeners, I've stuck my finger up. Um I keep forgetting we're not on YouTube, uh, but we will be, I can feel it. Yeah. Um so like this woman I just obsessed with on Instagram, Raquel, she talks about exactly this about this overuse of therapy language and people saying I need to protect my peace, and you know, like I'm I'm putting up boundaries. Ask someone if they say they're putting in a boundary to define what boundaries are.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

And they and they can't, right? It's kind of like asking someone to define the word queer. Like, I've not found a definition, like no one can agree on it, right? It's the reason why I have a problem with words, is when the word is very open to interpretation, and we have evolved. Also, words are different in different languages. So I speak Spanish, and my partner speaks Spanish, Catalan, English, and Tagalog because he's better than me. He speaks none of them well. But he speaks them, though he does. But because, like, for example, in our home, English is his second language, right? We we have a relationship in English. He says things that I understand it because I know him and love him. But if you were listening, you would be like, it's the reason why British people have such a hard time with foreigners. Like they're just like, they don't join the dots. Like, for example, um, there's no gendered pronoun in his language, so he'll mix up he and she all the time, right? Um, and so like I it just sometimes makes stories hard to follow. But my want to understand him is greater than the language he uses, right? He says he mixes up usually and used to. He likes things like that. So I think my point being that the language we use is important, but more important is the intention behind the language that we're using. And like was just shared on that voice note, people are saying things without knowing what they want to mean. What they really mean is go away.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Yeah, leave me alone.

SPEAKER_04 45:16

Right. What they're actually trying to say is shut up, right? And actually, nobody wants to have a really uncomfortable conversation. People will end a friendship, end a friendship rather than mend it, leave a partner rather than discuss it, walk out of a job, not like I used to manage people in my last job for seven years, and everybody thought that the place was toxic, and I said, that must make you part of the prop.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Yeah, because you've been here for 10 years. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 45:50

Right, and it and it's like this whole idea of like it's everybody else's fault, and I think what wellness chat is giving people is it's kind of turning everybody into victims of their circumstances rather than trying to transcend them and saying, okay, like so, for example, I left my corporate job to become a stand-up comedian, it's not perfect, right? But when I'm having a hard day doing what I'm doing, I asked myself, is there something in it I would like what about this could I change, right? Now, when I was in my last corporate job, I wasn't in love with it anymore, but I loved the money. So the question I asked myself was, am I willing to ignore these things to stay with this thing that's allowing me to do what I want to do? i.e., am I willing to sell out this for money? I think what we used to call that was compromise. I think due to the like the uplifting of it's everyone else's fault, there's a name for the problem you have. The world revolves around you in your diagnosis. Like, I'm not saying your diagnosis isn't real, I'm saying that it's not actually up to the planet to tiptoe around it. And what the wellness scape has done is it's led people to believe that the 8 billion people in the world have to understand what you're going through, and and I think that's the big lie of wellness. I think that that's why people disconnect from their families rather than try and just kind of meet them where they're at, like you said. That's why people let go of things that they maybe shouldn't let go of because it's not this incredibly high standard that's unattainable. If wellness was working, why are we so depressed, so out of shape, so undersexed, right? That like we're having less sex than our grandparents, so the physical connection is off. People are looking at porn more, people are more addicted uh to food, drugs, alcohol, weight loss injections. Like we have so much information and we're buying into so much uh wellness, we've actually never been so sick.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Absolutely. And I think that what I was thinking when you were saying all that as well, it's like somebody, it's like we've all got this drive to be comfortable. And I always thought that it was a a slippery slope when we started to sell loungeware. Um, because it felt like do you know what I mean? Like suddenly everybody's just like that's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 48:32

That was when you that thought was right up there with that essay you wrote.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Right, literally. Is loungewear the reason that we're all absolutely fucked? Um, I think it is, but but I genuinely feel that there was almost like this kind of we're being sold this idea of comfort and that that being the goal. And yet, like you say, the world has never felt more uncomfortable. And exactly like you just said, you know, like we're seeking wellness and yet we've never been so unwell. It's all of those things. It's like we we've been sold this ideal of comfort, not having discomfort, uncomfortable conversations, not being uncomfortable in, you know, oh, don't like your work, don't like your job, quit. It's like, well, actually, a lot of people can't just quit, like, because they have like responsibilities and families and things, you know, like my sister has not enjoyed her job for many, many years, um, but she can't just quit. She's she's a grown-up, she has grown-up things to pay for. And actually, do you know what? A few years ago, maybe decades ago, everyone like that loving what you do at work wasn't like a thing. Like, it was like you didn't like you work, and then you love your life. You don't love work. And again, it's a this this kind of ideal that we're being sold, that comfort is the goal, that wellness is the goal, that love, that happiness, and all of that. Um, but it is it's all about commercialization.

SPEAKER_04 49:50

It's all and it only exists, it only exists in the West. Can I just say? I have a Filipino boyfriend.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Boyfriend, slander, oh sorry, fiance.

SPEAKER_04 50:01

I hate the word fiance. Like, he changes status for throughout the day. He's husband when I'm on stage, you know what I mean? He's Filipino husband in the hashtags, but like, um, yeah, but the thing is, like, his idea of like hardship is is he doesn't seem to believe in hardship, right? And he's had some like, I mean, he, you know, he is an amazing person, but like he's not unique in his experiences as someone coming from a more developing country. He started again twice in two different countries when he moved to Spain uh before he had these papers to live here, you know, all this stuff that we just didn't think of before Brexit. Uh we could just move where we wanted to all around Europe. He was like a qualified nurse working as a basically a care assistant uh for hardly any money, just doing courses at night time, all these things. Does not complain. The one thing I notice about Leo when he comes home, he doesn't bitch about his colleagues. Like, who does that? Right? And he never complain, he never complains about work. I've never seen him come in and say, We've been together two years, I've he's never complained about his work. He has two jobs. Statistically, he should complain about at least one of the jobs, and then like, and so I love what you just said, but I also think as well, I keep getting Instagram ads that really concern me, which is like my lazy girl job working four hours a week and being paid 2,000 a month, and it's like I've sent four emails today and watched Netflix at work. Is this what we're striving for? Is this what are you the people that are going to free Palestine? The people that the people that work for two grand, like and their loungewear. And if you're being paid that somewhere in another country, you are the reason why there's inequality, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:01

100%.

SPEAKER_04 52:02

Like, like I always say, I'm so glad that the people that fought for gay rights were not those people, uh, because we still have none. But like, what did you do about it? Oh, I mean, I thought about it and I painted my rainbow flag on at home alone where no one can see me. I think that I think that this whole idea of like us having to be comfortable, it's everyone else's fault. People don't understand you, there's nothing wrong with you, like, is a trap. And I think that we relationships require two people to compromise at all times. 100% right, and what what what wellness is selling people, from what I can see, is everyone needs to understand you, and actually no one has to do that. The thing I've learned, I'm nearly nine years sober now, is no one needs to get I'm an addict, they don't need to respect it, they don't need to like it, they don't need to understand it, they don't even need to believe it. I have friends that don't believe that you weren't that bad. I was like, bitch, I lived in the street. Um like the they they thought it was a lot of fun, but they don't need to get it. I need to learn to navigate it, and I need to learn to understand people that still have drink problems, still have drug problems, have mental health issues, and if I want them in my life, I will navigate it, but it's my choice, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:29

And I mean, yeah, it is your choice, but it also I think it is your choice, but from a pl a place of healing. And you know, while we might be saying slightly negative things about wellness and bits and bobs like that, we have also both really benefited, I think, from a lot of this stuff as well. So we can't take away from that, which is what allows us to be the type of people that makes those choices. Um, I've got another uh quick little voice note that I'm gonna play for my friend Laura, who is an actual therapist.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

Therapist. I am so over this therapy speak stuff. Like I cannot stand it. I'm a therapist and I don't speak therapy speak. Like I find myself in open session, inevitably, with every single client talking about what boundaries actually are. Boundaries are rules for ourselves that we stick to. It's what we decide to do under certain circumstances. It is a pathway to feeling faith and trusting of ourselves. They are not rules for other people, they are not punishments for other people. It is an understanding of what we are going to do with our own behavior in certain circumstances. And this whole like, I need to protect my peace, that can also be very punishing when it's not centered around, like, um, if we don't have the emotional intelligence to recognize that we don't like someone, we don't want to hang out with someone, or we're not willing to like engage in conflict with them and being reasonable. Not, I'm not saying that this person is abusive, they're just like a friend or whatever that's bringing a problem to them. And the response is, I need to need to protect my peace. Like there's a difference there between like, yo, I'm gonna be real, I do not have the emotional capacity for this. Is there another way I can help you? Or can we talk at another time? Not I need to protect my peace. I don't know. These things, they're so nuanced, but you can kind of feel when they're punishing and when they're authentic, you know? But yeah, the weaponization, and again, I don't even use therapy speak. I don't even know. Well, I do knew no few clinicians who use therapy speak, and I don't quite like them. But I it is not that is not language I even bring into session.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

I should have warned you that she is American before I played that. Was that quite a shock?

SPEAKER_04 55:49

Like, happy love Americans. My grandfather was American uh his whole life.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

I don't know why, but suddenly her really strong Chicago accent was a real shock to me.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

I love Chicago as well. Favourite city in America. Um the that what I and I'm glad she said that about I feel like we've just been saying all of that, like about the protect the peace thing, is and what boundaries actually are. And I understood boundaries as being an agreement with myself. So I'll give you a really good example. Um I was dating very poorly the first six years of my recovery, and um I one of the guys, I he was like a drug, I just couldn't get we couldn't get enough of each other, but it was going nowhere. We kept breaking up, he didn't want to be monogamous. Um I did, and uh so we broke up and then we got back, and every we just kept engineering being around each other, and then my friend I decided to cut loose, and my friend said to me, She's in recovery as well, but she's a bit unhinged. And she said to me, you know, when somebody gives you a lot of advice um and you didn't ask for it, and um, ouch.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

That's me.

SPEAKER_04 57:02

It was it was one of those moments I just said, you know, I said, Oh yeah, like I've you know, it's fine, I'm I'm not gonna get back with him. And she's like, But he might turn up at your door, and you don't know what he might do. And I went, what he does is actually irrelevant, it's what I do in response to that, right? And that was when I had that moment where it was like, and I found that before I met Leo as well, I had been, you know, obsessed with someone who was really bad for me. And I said to myself, I can't control whether I go on a date with another psychopath or not, or who I perceived, sorry, who I perceive as psychopaths. Shout out to all the psychos. Um, but like who I perceive to be a psychopath, but like I trust that I will walk away. That's a boundary, is when I meet something that's bad for me. Another example was I was asked to do a show um for a homeless organization, uh, I don't want to name them here in Barcelona. That I'm on the board of one organisation, Esperanza, who I will name, but uh a friend of mine, the comedian, was organizing a charity show to benefit this organization. And when I I don't agree with their work, I don't actually think they're helping homeless people at all. I've seen no evidence of it. Um, and so when I found out who that charity was, I said I cannot do the show, right? So that's a boundary for me. I didn't slate them, I didn't ask them to change the charity, I didn't ask them to, I didn't tell them, the person organizing the show, why that charity isn't a charity I can support. And I used to live in the street, and you should listen to me. That's manipulation. The boundary is I cannot be I cannot be part of this, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:48

No, absolutely, and again, this touches right back into all that self-worth stuff that we've been talking about for the last three weeks. Are we gonna get to the end of this season and realise that we've just spoken about the same thing every episode?

SPEAKER_04 58:59

Self-worth consistent.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

I know, I love that, and I feel like it is, it's it's it's I think like you say, like boundaries are and like what Laura said, you know, boundaries are not about being dismissive to others and about hurting other peoples. And when you use them that way, that is exactly that's a very unwell way of using something. But when it is about I think, and we've talked for absolutely ages, so I don't want to talk on this too much. I think boundaries as well, I can use boundaries to kind of isolate myself. Um, I can use boundaries as well because I have a lot of fear around being vulnerable, um, especially when it comes to relationships, hence not having a boyfriend. Um, even though we're four episodes in now and I still haven't managed to pick up a man, even though I've definitely asked for one every episode. Um consistency. We like it. Um, but yeah, I think that maybe, yeah, maybe we need to deep dive a bit more into boundaries. And actually, maybe we should get Laura on the uh on the odd podcast. Um, I've got a couple more things that I just want to read out before we finish up. Um, so we've got lovely Gareth who's messaged us and said the wellness industry is an important environment for those who wish to be more connected to their mind, bodies, and souls. It cannot be underestimated the impact wellness can have on a person to help them improve their mindset and benefit themselves and the world around them. Sadly, too many people with no experience want to cash in on vulnerable people, whereas you have amazing places like Transcend in Manchester, which is where he's um faced, or people um who have spent years learning how to sport someone, you have too many people trying to cash in on some of the most vulnerable people in society. Just because you attended a sound bath and you spent three weeks sober, it does not make you a guru. Ian, spend five minutes, spending five minutes on chat spending five minutes on chat GPT to come up with a plan for someone does not make you a guru. It makes you a complete money-grabbing prick. Um, and then he says he would say the C word, and then he does use the C word. So I like that. Um yeah, I mean, we've totally touched on all of that. I couldn't agree more, and and I wouldn't want um this conversation for us to be underestimating the goodness that a lot of these things do for people. Um, there are some incredible, incredible organizations.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:22

When I when I started in comedy, um a lot of comedians were sober, and I was six years sober, and they were all like 20 days, three months, and all that. And the I never the thing that annoyed me about it was they wouldn't stop talking about it on stage. But I was new, I was a new comedian, and I remember sitting there filing my nails, thinking they're all gonna drink, and they did, right? But not before they made it, their whole personality. And one of them said they wanted to write a book about getting sober. When they got to a year sober, they're like, and while they were saying it, they said, I want to write a book about getting sober, because there was never anything like that out when I got sober, and I went, where did you look? Like, there's like whole organ, there's an industry. Do you know what I mean? Like, I literally, like, there's like when we talk about the 12-step recovery and we talk about what comes out of that, like people are very suspicious of that, but they'll pay private online gurus or apps to keep them sober. Like, I haven't I haven't paid a penny to get sober. Do you know what I mean? Like the like that's the thing that really annoys me that like something so beautiful as a community that can help support each other. People try and monetize it. In fact, there's a guy who used to be in the fellowship with me, and I hope he's not listening to this, but he's now rebranded himself as a sober coach, has stopped going to the program and is basically yeah, and they try and sell courses. And I'm like, mostly men, and um and I'm like, so you're monetizing something that you got for free? That's kind of like me. Um, like, for example, like I I like to help people because I can, right? Not to my detriment, but I my main job is I'm a comedian, right? So if I can help uh newer comedians um like build their show or give them advice, I will. Do you know how many of them have said I'm happy to pay you? And I'm like, you're alright. And that's the world we live in where it's like this idea of just helping someone for the sake of helping someone is like it is like wrong. I don't believe that people shouldn't be able to pay their rent. I'm just saying, like, much like the manosphere, right? Those men are making money selling bogus products. There's no difference, right? A bogus investment product, they're getting a cut of the money, they're getting a cut of this person's OnlyFans, they're getting a cut of all this. Their salary is your downfall, and it's the same for a lot of these people parting with thousands and thousands of euros to do courses on how to have a mindful wank. It's yeah, it's it's a yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

I've spent an I mean, not on mindful wanking, but I've spent a fortune. Wait, I've no send me the link, yeah? Um, but no, I mean like because I've got a chronic condition, a chronic pain condition, you know, and it's snake oil salesman, and and and it was actually, I was about to drop, um, uh it was a CBD oil and it was like 90 pounds or something. And the guy that I was working for at the time, he was like, Would it not be cheaper for you to just go and get a 10 bag of weed? And it's like, oh yeah, it'll do the same thing. And anyway, this was um he he had his point was absolutely accurate. I was paying something like 90 pounds for this oil because it was going to stop my pain, whereas it literally was like, Well, you could just smoke a joint. Um, and it is, it's these snake oil salesmen that that feeds on these people that are in pain. And again, this is probably a whole nother podcast episode. Um, I've got one more point that I just want to read out before we wrap up. Um, and this has been it sent in from uh Hannah. Um, and they've said, as someone who never really had strong boundaries and spent a long time people pleasing, I've noticed a shift in myself lately. I've started using phrases like I'm at capacity or I don't have the headspace much more. Uh at the same time, I can honestly say I felt in the past that some people use boundaries as an excuse for poor behaviour. I used to envy people who could set them so clearly, but also felt like at times it just came across as selfish, which I suppose in some ways it is, as it is choosing yourself first, but choosing yourself doesn't have to come at the expense of how you treat others, which is very, very much like um what uh Laura was saying. Um and then she said here, I think on reflection that language gets used to avoid uncomfortable conversations rather than have them. We've talked about that as well. Um, and then she says, I probably do this at times myself too because I hate conflict, because we are told to hate conflict. Be agreeable, smile, don't rock the boat, be comfortable, make everybody else comfortable. And you know, again, that's one of the reasons that unsurprisingly, drink, drink, drink, because it's that unalignment, which we talked about again last week, that unalignment with our values and our beliefs, um, and forcing kind of behaviors upon ourselves, it's the discomfort of that. Because it isn't nice to be, we're not saying that it's not that you must sit in the uncomfortableness and the discomfort. Because yeah, to be honest, when I was like that, that was when I drank the most. But it's being able to taking away alcohol and drugs has allowed us to sit and sit through it because I think what people don't realise is that discomfort and uncomfortableness and hard conversations and all that, they do end. And they might not always end in the way that you think they're gonna. I've recently lost a friend, a very, very good friend. Um, I wasn't prepared to have the conversation that they wanted to have about our friendship, um, and it was quite nasty in the end. But I was able to go, I'm gonna put the phone down now, and I did, um, and because they'd started to be a bit um insulting. And the old shell would have then, and it's been really upsetting because this person's been a very close friend for a few years in recovery, and old shell would have immediately been fawning, oh, I'm sorry, oh, can I do this? Da-da-da-da-da. But actually, I'm like, Do you know what? I'm happy with my behaviour. I'm not going to pretend and say I shouldn't have. I'm not gonna fake apologize for things just to make things comfortable for us and for our mutual friends. Um, and I thought, actually, that's that's probably the most sober thing I'd done in a while.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:36

Um I'd I I totally agree with you, and I think I love what was read as well about like it's not the boundary, it's actually the execution of the boundary. Like, I have never, when someone is queer about their boundaries, felt upset, you know, because like because of the way that it's been set, and actually, people pleasing is always lets everyone down because you can do the thing, you cancel last minute, you do all these things, right? Like, I was leaving the comedy club one night and this uh girl said, Oh, we're all going out for a drink after. Do you want to come? And I said, No. And she went, Oh, have you got work to do in the morning or something? And I said, No, I just don't want to. And she was amazed, by my honesty. She was waiting on the excuse. I went, No, I just don't want to have a lovely night. And she went, Oh, okay, and that was it. No lies, no, I've got work in the morning, I need to walk my iron and board. Um and I think I think it's I think it's that idea of like when you're really clear with someone, it's not as hurtful as you think it's actually going to be. It's actually, it's like when someone can agree plans with me, I keep moving forward as though they're not happening, right? So, like um my friend says that they they do this in Al-Anon, that you you just keep getting on with it. So, for example, if if I go to to make a uh plan with someone and they don't get back to me with a time or place, that is not booked. Like that space is available and I'll continue with my life. And then when they get back to me, the day when they get back to me the day before, say, hey, what's happening on Saturday? We didn't have a time, place, or anything. I'm now busy.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

Whereas what I do, and we'll end the show now, but yeah, what I do is I keep that space and then I resent them, and then I get hurt, and then I sit at home feeling miserable and lonely and isolated, not doing anything on a Saturday, because like you said, I've I've held that space. Um, and yeah, so I've learned a lot about myself this episode, Ian. What about you?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:49

I always learn something from our episodes in you.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:54

Oh, yeah, right. And about how our distant, how how our long-distance friendships shall remain long distance. Um but um if you two have taken something from this episode and have we have enriched your life, please enrich our pockets um by jumping on the show notes and clicking the link that says buy me a coffee and then doing that because we would love that. Um, and everything else that we've discussed, all of the links for Ian's shows that are upcoming in the UK and beyond, um, and um links to buy my merchandise, which is behind me if you're watching this on a video, which I finally put on YouTube. Um, everything is in the show notes. Um, next week we will be discussing um AI. Um, we are gonna talk about AI, our dependency on AI, and I've already had a funny feeling that lots of the stuff we've talked about today are gonna come up. Um, it's particularly um the way that AI has um intersect, um I can't see I've lost my words now, we've been talking for too long, um, has infiltrated the creative industries. Um, I've got my own kind of uncomfortable relationship with AI and the way that even we've used it on these podcast covers and how I'm not sure if I'm happy about that and dah dah da. So we're gonna yeah, talk a little bit about AI, our reliance on it. Is it a good thing? Are the robots coming to take us over? Um, is that necessarily a good, bad thing? But in particular, its impact on our creative industries of which we are both a part of. So if you have a comment about that, please send it in. Um, and again, ways to do that are in the show notes. Any last words, sir?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:29

No last words from me. I just want to thank everybody for listening so far. Also, just to say thanks for everyone who does send us in their comments, like it really helps focus the show. Because without those comments, imagine what a mess this would be.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:44

Imagine. I know. I also am really proud of us that when we do read the comments, we're like, yeah, said that. Yeah, I already said that. Yeah. Tell us something you didn't say.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:53

My friend actually, my friend actually DM'd me the other day saying that she'd listened to our money episode and she'd heard what you said. I think she's going to reach out to you directly uh and say that she used some app. Like she heard what you were saying about being worried for retirement.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:09

No, step change.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:10

No, it's not something you said, it's something she wants to tell you about.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

I thought I had helped somebody then. That was so exciting. But no, no.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:19

You're about to be helped. You're about to be helped.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

At least that's worked. I've got nobody voice noting me anymore, and I'm getting my debts sorted. It would be nice. So waiting for that boyfriend.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:31

And that and can I just say now that no one voice notes her, she's furious.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

But I found out I've got a setting on WhatsApp that you can transcribe voice notes.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

Oh my god. I found that a couple of days ago. That has been a bit of a game changer. So now I can sit down with a copper and a transcribed voice note for half a fucking hour and make notes like I'm writing a thesis. Right, we need to go. Have a thank you everybody so much for listening. Uh make sure to follow us on socials at two sober for this podcast and see you all next week.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:13

See you next week.