Make Me an Instrument of Your Peace | Mark DeYmaz

In this deeply reflective conversation, host John Terrill welcomes pastor, author, and practitioner Mark DeYmaz for an exploration of Christian peacemaking. Drawing from his new book Make Me an Instrument of Peace and his decades of work leading multi‑ethnic congregations, Mark unpacks the biblical, historical, and practical foundations of living as Christlike peacemakers in a fractured cultural moment.

Mark shares his upbringing in economic hardship, his journey into pastoral ministry, and the early experiences that awakened his calling to build healthy, multi‑ethnic churches. Together, John and Mark discuss the Prayer of St. Francis, its surprising origins, and its enduring ability to shape Christians into people who sow love, pardon, hope, and light.

Listeners will gain insight into:

1. The true origins of the peace prayer (hint: not St. Francis)
2. Why peacemaking is central to Christian identity
3. How juxtaposition and paradox lie at the heart of the gospel
4. The skills required to think and speak with nuance
5. Practical disciplines for removing “peace‑disturbing factors” in our lives
6. Stories of God’s grace at work amid personal grief, community challenges, and ministry breakthroughs
7. How Christians can witness with humility rather than merely “make points”
8. How churches can embody reconciliation in polarized times

This episode invites us to pause, breathe, and rediscover the beauty and costliness of Christlike peace.

Key Topics

1. Multi‑ethnic church leadership
2. Cultural intelligence and nuance
3. The peace prayer of 1912 and its global impact
4. Biblical foundations of peacemaking (Matthew 5, Isaiah 61, Luke 4)
5. Christian formation in polarized times
6. Practical disciplines for pursuing peace
7. Mark’s personal journey and testimony

Resources & Links

1. Mark DeYmaz: Books, resources, and ministry
2. Make Me an Instrument of Peace (NavPress, 2026)

CONNECT WITH US
Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

I needed someone to make peace in my life. I didn't have peace along the lines I'm saying without a father, no brothers and sisters, having to fend for myself literally and all my work back. But I found that peace in Christ. I, because of my background, I've always wanted to extend it to the marginalized.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Welcome to the Upwards Podcast, where we explore the intersection of Christian faith in the academy, the church, and the marketplace. In this episode, host John Terrell sits down with pastor and author Mark Damas, a leading voice on multi-ethnic churches, cultural intelligence, and what it means to be a peacemaker in today's deeply divided world. In describing his new book, Make Me an Instrument of Peace, becoming more like Jesus through the prayer of St. Francis, Mark shares his personal story, growing up with economic hardship, making commitments to Christ in college, and eventually becoming a national leader in building healthy, multi-ethnic congregations. Along the way, he unpacks the profound wisdom of the peace prayer, commonly attributed to St. Francis, explores its true origins, and shows how its paradoxes align with the life and ministry of Jesus. Mark also offers practical, grounded ways Christians can cultivate peace by asking good questions, assuming the best of others, thinking with nuance, and embracing the costly joy of serving our neighbors. Stay with us to learn how we can become instruments of peace in a fractured cultural moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Well, Mark, uh, we're delighted to have you on the podcast today. What a what a pleasure to read your book. I have a galley uh advanced copy here, um, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. In fact, it I think I read it in two or three sittings. It was really absorbed my my energy. I just want to thank you for writing the book. You bet, John. Thanks for having me today. You know, you have a fascinating vocational background. You've you've worked in a lot of places, and uh, I wonder if you could just, for the benefit of our listeners and viewers, just talk about your work in the life of the church.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Yeah, uh, well, again, thanks so much for having me today, uh, John. And I've never thought about my life as being fascinating, but I suppose if you don't know my story, maybe it is interesting at least. Uh I was born out of wedlock and raised by a single parent mother, uh, no brothers and sisters. 1961, only about 5% of children in America were born out of wedlock at that time. Grew up in uh California in San Francisco in the Bay Area. My mom worked two or three jobs just to keep food on the table, literally, as they say. And uh, but she raised me Catholic and uh grew up attending Catholic Mass in Alameda, California. And then we moved when I was 11 to Phoenix, uh to Arizona. And that's when in sixth grade, seventh grade, I began attending Catholic schools and ultimately ended up in a Jesuit college prep school for high school. I was certainly wasn't wealthy to be in that school. I was on a work scholarship program uh that really paid most of the bills. So I worked in the rectories for six years uh with Catholic priests, and I was an altar boy, as they called it now, an altar server, uh, working again in the rectories, et cetera. So I was very much steeped in my Catholic faith, Catholic uh schooling and education under the Jesuits, and uh very engaged in Catholic life, if you will. And 19 years of age, I was playing college baseball and came to know Christ in a more personal way. I always had a head knowledge and understanding of my Christian faith, but in at 19 years of age, getting around a couple of other uh Christ-centered ball players, I really that someone once said the distance between heaven and hell is 12 inches from your head to your heart. And it was as a sophomore that I really embraced uh personal responsibility, let's say, for my faith. And ever since then began to uh grow in that. Uh I played college baseball, Division I, too slow to get drafted at the end of that career, and I had nothing better to do when the church that I'd become a Christian in, or a uh, let's say a more fully devoted follower, I should say, of Christ, uh, invited me to be their high school pastor. I had no idea what that was, John. I'd never, well, I wasn't raised in a youth group, didn't know what that involved, but uh it turns out I was naturally gifted. A couple of years later, ended up in seminary in Portland, Oregon. And I spent 18 years as a student ministries pastor. And the final eight of those brought me to Little Rock, Arkansas from the West Coast, uh, where I became part of a very uh large and rapidly growing church. When I got here in 1993, the church was 2,000. It ended up being 5,000 attending on Sunday. My youth group went from 150 to 600. I ended up with nine full-time staff, uh, built a three and a half million dollar student center, was in the top 2% of paid youth pastors in America. I was living the dream until one day I looked around this otherwise amazing church and realized the only people of color were janitors. And that was in 1997, John. And at the time when I made that observation, I didn't really even understand it, but I just felt something didn't, it didn't sit well with me. Something was not right about this picture, though otherwise I was in an amazing church. And again, living the dream. And so uh I returned to my exegetical theology. I had a master's in uh that at the time. And and just on the side, as I continued to do my youth ministry, I began to reflect on the nature of the New Testament church. Was it in fact segregated Jews and Gentiles? Was it in fact, did it follow the homogeneous unit principle, I should say, as I'd been taught it? Was it true biblically that churches, uh, while they grow fastest when they target homogeneous demographics, uh, was that really biblical? And I began to question all that throughout my seminary notes, studying it for myself, and came to realize that every church in the New Testament was what we would call today a multi-ethnic church. Men and women, Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, walking, working, and worshiping God together as one, to declare a credible witness of God's love for all people, not just some, uh, in the first century. And certainly we need that today. So, all to say, in 2001, I felt led of God to stay in the city of Little Rock, but we came to the inner city, 30% of people at or below poverty, 67% of kids growing up as I did without dads in the home, uh, highest violent crime in the city, determined to live out Matthew 5.16, to let them see our good works of redemption, community engagement, and justice and compassion and mercy, the good work of bringing diverse people together to uh be a visible demonstration of the kingdom of heaven, a credible witness of the gospel. And John, I can't even believe we're coming up on 24, 25 years now of this work. And of course, that centers you in the very topic of the book. Uh, how do you bring blacks and whites and Asians and Hispanics and the homeless and, you know, sitting next to doctors and wealthy people all together in one church, Democrats and Republicans? How is that even possible? And at the center of all that is not only the biblical mandate where Christ envisioned the church to be this way, Luke described it at Antioch, and Paul prescribes it throughout his life and writings, but at the root of that is our identity in Christ as peacemakers. Matthew chapter 5, verse 9. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. And so at the root of our work and my work for the past 25 years has been the concept of being a peacemaker. Christ lifted up, drawing all people, not just some people, to himself and identifying both personally and collectively as a church with him and that mission.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Wow, that is uh a wonderful summary. I feel like I got a seminary course or a whole church series there in just a few minutes. Um, you spend a lot of time on the road, Mark, uh helping churches make this transition, right, to a multi-ethnic community. Um I wonder if you could just say a few words about that part of your life as well.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

When when I set off on this journey, I mean, not to say I'm Abrahamic, if you will, or equate myself with Abram, but it's very much like that. Like I felt God called me to do this. I had no idea what I was doing. I he just said it's like Abram. He said, Go and I'll show you when you get there. And so it's just literally been 24, 25 years of one step at a time, just trying to discern the Lord's will in this work and follow him. And uh, you know, as they say in Arkansas, John, who would have thunk it? I never expected that anybody would pay attention to my work. I never sought, if you will, that anybody would pay attention to it. And frankly, for the first 10 years, even longer, like we're not even sure we're gonna make it, right? But we cling to that verse, 1 Thessalonians 5, 4, uh, 24, faithful is he who calls you, that he will do it. And I knew, and the staff around me and those who joined us, we knew beyond a shadow of a doubt God had said, do this and do it here, do it now, in this place, in this time. And we just hung on, like, you know, going around an inner tube. If you're getting pulled by a button, there's that moment, that thing's going so fast in the inertia, it tips the tube up, and you're hanging on by a fingernail thinking, man, I'm gonna go flying off into the woods at any second. Uh, we lived like that for 10, 12, 14 years or so in this work, but God is faithful to his promise. We knew we were called, and he certainly has proved himself over and over again uh in this work. So, all to say that uh, you know, just by the grace of God, here we are. You know, we're we're still, you know, leaning into it every day, learning. And all of that is the things we have learned along the way. Others began to take notice of, others began to say, hey, you know, how are you doing that? Or or or how did you approach this? Or we'd like to plant or grow a healthy multi-ethnic church. And all of that led to my first book in 2007, Building a Healthy Multi-ethnic Church. Again, I I never set out to write a book. I none of that. But it just, again, it was just part of that process. God said, Hey, I'm showing you some things, you're getting some things done. There's other people that could benefit. And so, really, since 2007, my colleagues and I have kind of leaned into that. And that's through writing and coaching and cohorts and organizations and nonprofits we've launched. We've learned, you know, I'm 64, so it's kind of like that guy in the TV commercial. I've learned a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two. We're credible practitioners. I'm not a consultant. And that's taken us into the space of not only building healthy multi-ethnic churches, but culturally intelligent churches. We we are uh working with, you know, we are the basically the preferred provider of cultural intelligence to the faith-based community in North America on behalf of Dave Libermore's Cultural Intelligence Center. Uh, we have church economics, how do you fund the church in the 21st century, get away from soul dependence on tithes and offerings? We uh have leaned into even AI and are launching a church planting network specifically focused on planting multi-other churches. So, all to say yes, from books and cohorts and coaching and multiple fields of uh that's really the space we're in, and we're an open book, if you will. Uh, we are clearly not a perfect church, and I am certainly not a perfect man or a perfectly formed peacemaker. But I just keep going and keep trying. And when I fail, get right back up and stay at it. And our church has that attitude as well. So if we can help others, that we certainly we do, we try to, and uh it's all to the glory of God.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Well, that's a that's a helpful introduction, and I think a good segue to the book. And I wonder, Mark, if you'd be willing to read the peace prayer as we begin. I uh it's wonderful because you at the beginning of the book, you have the original, you have the peace prayer in the original French, you have it in common English, and you have a literal translation as well. And I found that really helpful. I went back over and over again to reread the prayer as I read the book. So if you'd get us started by reading the prayer, and then we'll dive into the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah, you bet. And again, given my background, uh, part of the reason I wrote this book is because, you know, I have found in Catholicism and my upbringing, this prayer was front and center and it was decided regularly, certainly at school and other places. But in my Protestant life, if you will, since I was 21, uh I'd often hear it quoted or repeated or said in Protestant churches, maybe some main lines, but generally speaking, not a lot of Protestant churches lean into this prayer. And so all to say, I won't just read it, John, I'll pray it over us and wonderful. Thank you. Lord, make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred, let me so love. Where there is injury, pardon, where there is doubt, faith, where there is despair, hope, where there is darkness, light, where there is sadness, joy. O divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, but to console, not to be understood, but to understand, to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive, it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Amen. Amen. Thank you. Mark, what can you tell us about the origins of this prayer? I had heard it. I knew it was often attributed to Saint Francis, but um, I learned some things about the prayer's roots. I wonder what you could share with uh the listening and viewing audience today.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Yeah, that that's a really great question. And I mean, that's not why I wrote the book, but I think it is an interesting fact that in fact uh if St. Francis would was here in this room today, he'd say, I don't know what you're talking about. So uh he certainly didn't write the prayer. Uh it actually goes back to 1912. It's an anonymous author, and you may know it, and we put it in the book's title because that's familiar, The Prayer of St. Francis, or it's often referred to as the Peace Prayer. Uh, but again, St. Francis didn't write it, wouldn't even know we're talking about it today, or him in the same sentence. 1912, there was a uh uh in French, it was published in Paris in a French magazine that was published by a small uh Catholic organization that was focused on the Mass. In fact, uh that organization was called the Holy Mass League. It was founded by a Catholic priest in the late 1800s, and essentially they existed to enhance the Mass and to help with the Mass and different things. They had a little publication in English, it was called The Little Bell. And so the Holy Mass League published this anonymous prayer under the title A Beautiful Prayer to Be Said During Mass. And that was the prayer's origin. And what happened was, of course, not long after that, World War I broke out. And so, certainly in France, this prayer was prayed in the context uh five or six years later or so of the First World War. And that helped to proliferate it a bit. And later on, of course, you come to the Second World War, and it just continues to proliferate throughout the world. It's such a beautiful prayer. And during World War II, what's interesting is there was a Catholic priest, I believe, if I remember right, in America, but that Catholic priest put the prayer on one side of like a little prayer card. So think about it like you're going off to war, you're a soldier, and maybe they give you a little card to encourage you. And in that card uh was the peace prayer, but on the back side of it was a picture of Saint Francis. And of course, and Catholicism, Saint Francis is pictured as a man of peace, uh, you know, uh often depicted with animals and a dove. And uh this is part of his his brand, if you will. And so the peace prayer was on one side, the picture of St. Francis on the other, of this little card. And that then literally went out all over the world during World War II and to this day. So here we are, you know, roughly 100 to 125 years or so after this anonymous prayer was written and published in France, Paris, 1912. But the the uh I suppose the intersection with the picture of St. Francis is what led people in the last 50 to 75 years to presume that he wrote the prayer when in fact it's an anonymous author.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

I got a lot more history in that than I think you detail in the book. I don't remember all those details in the book. It's fascinating. I'm glad I asked the question because I got more. I didn't realize they they did the the World War II printing with St. Francis on one side and the prayer on the other. So that's that's fascinating. Um well, we live in a really interesting cultural moment. I mean, I it's you don't have to look far or wide to see the divisiveness. It sort of encroaches us from every direction. We feel torn and embattled in a lot of ways and caught in a lot of these battles. But I am curious, uh, you know, who you wrote the book for? And what are your hopes uh as a result of this book?

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Again, really great question that kind of gives readers uh a little bit of background or insight. I I talk to church pastors obviously all the time, and many times working with them, I start with how old is your church? And some will say, Oh, we planted our church in, you know, 2010, let's say they say that. Well, the pandemic, of course, as we all know, kind of officially uh came to us in the world in 2020. So if you think about this example, here's a church that was 10 years old prior to the pandemic. And then by my count, I I think about a two-ish year period, maybe as long as three, from 2020 to about 2022, the start of 2022, leaning into that. So two, two and a half years of this pandemic, let's call it. And then by January 2022, or certainly later that year, the pandemic is declared over, if you will. And that's and that's it. Now, why I say that is because every church has a pre-pandemic church, there was a pandemic church, and there's a post-pandemic church. And so in this example, I'll tell that pastor, well, your church is really just three years old, right? Even though you start in 2010, there's these iterations that have occurred because of the pandemic. And and so with that in mind, that happened to our church as well. Obviously, we had people from the past, we had people during the pandemic, and then we had a new configuration of people after the pandemic, uh, many old timers, so to speak, but also many new folks who have come to the church in the last several years. And uh a couple of years ago or so, now two and a half, as we started the new year, that would have been, I believe, 2023 uh or maybe 2024. We have all we've done since the pandemic is just focus on Jesus. In fact, right now we're in a series on the Beatitudes uh leading up to Easter. And so a couple of years ago, as part of this, we focused on Matthew 5, 9, Blessed are the peacemakers, and we did an entire series for our church just talking about peacemaking. Obviously, uh, you know, the craziness of our world and the times, that's nothing new in one sense. Certainly in the last 10 to 15 or more years, things have gotten crazier, proliferated by the internet, access to smartphones, social media. So it's always a timeless, a timely message, I suppose. But for us, in in kind of the reformation of our church after the pandemic, it's certainly one of the things we wanted to instill in the collective body made up of many new people. And so we spent four months leading up to Easter talking about the way of peace. Uh as I mentioned earlier, that's central to building a healthy multi-ethic church, is developing cross-cultural relationships and cultural intelligence. And you've got to be quick to hear and slow to speak and slow to anger to develop a church like ours. So that's who it was written for, if you will, not the prayer, but we we used it here in our church. And as we did, and we have four teaching pastors, so there's rotation, and there were just such wonderful insights that were brought out in that series that it didn't take a rocket scientist, I should say, John, to realize, whoa, there's something to this here. And I I think this is my eighth book. I literally I have never once said, Oh, I just can't wait to write a book. Many times people say, Hey, what's your next book? I I don't have a next book. I don't know what the process is for me, but it's just something, it's almost like God throws a light switch and he goes, This is the topic, this is the time, and write this book. And it may not be quite that direct, but it all feels like that. And I didn't set out in doing the series to write a book, but there was a moment in time I'm like, this would be a wonderful resource for Christians and for America, certainly, in this period of uh chaotic times and and deep polarization across lines of color, class, culture, politics, etc. So, all to say, I wrote the book then, and it's the first one I've ever written towards general people in the pews, so to speak. Every book I've written is aimed at the upper echelon of the American Church in terms of leadership, a very small thimble of readers, if you will, but that's purposeful to influence, I should say, from the top. But this one is is written to people in the pews as well as intentionally to cross Catholic, Orthodox lines. So not just Protestant, uh, you have mainline evangelical course, but then Catholics and Orthodox. So it's the broadest reach I've ever attempted in terms of writing, because I think there's not a soul on the planet, certainly, that calls themselves a Christian who doesn't need to identify with Christ. And so that's the genesis of the book.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned Matthew 5. My mind, even as I started to read, you know, went to Matthew 5, uh Jesus' declaration, Blessed are the peacemakers. I'm I imagine there are a lot of other texts that came into play and that you think about regularly in your work in Arkansas and around the country and around the globe. I wonder if you could unpack for us the practice of peacemaking. And there's kind of a positive side of this where there are things that we do to bring peace and to create peace. But in your book, you also talk about peacemaking as a process of removing, I think you use the language removing peace disturbing factors, which approaches it from a different angle, I think. And I wonder if you could speak to both sides of that the proactive generation of peace, production of peace, and the work of removing those things in our lives, in our organizations. In our communities that actually disturb the peace.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah, you know, all of that, the idea of removing peace-disturbing factors, comes right out of Isaiah and the purpose of the anointed one, which really the prayer is built on. I start in the book talking about the current context of our times, engaging people at the bridge of Christ's humanity, moving to Isaiah and the familiar passage, of course, where he's prophesying, looking ahead to the anointed one, to the Messiah, to the Christ. And the Christ is going to be the one who removes these peace-disturbing factors from our lives. In the prayer of Isaiah, I imagine, and I do this in the book, we don't know who the anonymous author of the prayer was, and we don't know what he or she may have been reflecting on. But it seems clear to me, whoever it was, had to be reflecting on Isaiah, uh, where, you know, the anointed one is coming to, in a juxtaposition way, he's overthrowing, he's removing peace-disturbing factors from the world. You're sick, you'll be healed, or you're poor and you will be taken care of. And so all of this is part of that language of Isaiah, looking ahead to the anointed one of the Christ. And of course, Christ embraces that role in Luke chapter four, when he stands up and this and the scrolls are handed to him, and he cites from that passage and he says, Today, this has been fulfilled in your midst. So Christ owns the image of the anointed one, the Christ. Obviously, he is the Christ, but publicly, when he reads and interprets the scroll, he identifies himself with Isaiah and the promised anointed one, who has come to remove these peace-disturbing factors. And so when you read the prayer, of course, you know, um, as we just did in reciting, where there is hatred, let me so love, injury, pardon, it's this juxtaposition of peace-disturbing factors like hatred, like injury or offense. These things are being removed by the anointed one. And the the petitioner of the prayer, of course, yes, Christ is the one who does this, but until he does it, if you will, until the end of time and sets all things right, uh, we are called to identify him, identify, I should say, with him in the work of peacemaking. It's interesting in the Beatitudes, if you look at it, Matthew chapter uh five, verses three, you know, depending on where you break it up, up to at least 16 or so. But in 5-9, Matthew 5-9, blessed are the peacemakers, it says, For they shall be called the children of God. Now, that is the only beatitude in which you don't get something for what you do, you're identified with someone for who you are. So, uh, you know, blessed are the meek, they shall inherit the earth. The meek get the earth, if you will. But in peacemaking, you're identified with someone. And that means Christ is the capital P peacemaker. And just like he is the capital C Christ, we are Christians. And Christians means we are like Christ, we are little P peacemakers, we are little A anointed ones, if you follow my logic, so to speak. And so we have been commissioned along with Christ, under his guidance, under his authority, to model his life of capital P peacemaking, of capital A anointed one word. And we too, therefore, to embrace this identity as little C Christs, little C Christians, if you will, we are called to remove peace-disturbing factors in the lives of others on his behalf to represent him well. And so, where there is hatred, how can Mark Damas help remove the peace-disturbing factor that exists between people and God andor people and people in a redemptive, reconciliatory way? How can I speak into what can I do in terms of action that can help eliminate or diminish the power of a peace-disturbing factor of hatred? So, in terms of people groups, between blacks and whites, the gap between those who have, the wealthy, with the people we see literally in this building at the moment I'm speaking, opioid-addicted people, you know, affected by that, who live and die adjacent to our property. How do we remedy that? How do we come as little a anointed ones to set things right on Christ's behalf? And so all of that is some of the theological background, uh, if you will, of what I believe the prayer is saying, and why then peacemaking is so central or should be so central to our formation in Christ and the way we then live for Christ. It's the capital P peacemaker. And if you're going to call yourself a Christian, you embrace that little P, little A, and you get after it to bring about that redemptive, reconciliatory work that he literally gave his life to bring about in the lives of others.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah, and one of the things you do in the book, too, is you you identify the paradox that as we empty ourselves, as we give away, we actually gain. I wonder if you could speak to the paradox that's inherent in this prayer.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Yeah, I mean, you know, Jesus speaks about that. I think a little bit later in the Sermon on the Mount, right? Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, everything else will be taken care of. I mean, hey, don't seek money or riches. I got you, right? The birds of the field. I mean, Christ obviously, you know, speaks of this paradox. Everything about the life of Christ is paradoxical, right? I mean, you would think that if he's going to be the king of the Jews, let's say, he'd come down, he'd be a big Pharisee and a rabbi, and everybody would look to him, but he's born in a humble manger. He's like nothing to look at by, you know, uh you say, hey, he's nothing to look at. Like you wouldn't even notice him. So everything in the life of Christ is paradoxical. It's very disruptive. I mean, we have a disruptive God. He he disrupted death and he gives us life. He disrupted time and brought to us eternity, and and on and on it could go. So everything about the life of Christ and the way of Christ is disruptive. It's it's upside down, perhaps, or paradoxical. And so, of course, in this prayer and the anonymous writing that I believe was based on Isaiah, particularly, uh, you know, it's pointing out that paradox and and uh, you know, for it's in giving that we receive. Who among us listening to this podcast hasn't felt good, experienced some measure of joy or pleasure or significance or security, uh, let's say in and perhaps leaving our country to go serve God and to serve others somewhere around the globe, uh, maybe a missions trip or even in your own community. Um, literally, our our nonprofit today sees you know, seven, eight hundred people every Tuesday. It's food distribution. I mean, I literally came uh into my office from you know what's going on out what we call our town hall right now. You know, I got Hispanic babies and blacks and whites and the poor and homeless people with no teeth, and on and on, I could tell you that the about the inner city where we are in the engagement. And just on behalf of the church, and I know from where we came over 24 years to get to this level of operation, it just gives me such joy for Christ and for our church and for his namesake to see the church being the church. And it costs us time. We have to hire staff, we have to chase grant funding. Uh, you know, there's all this literally this morning. I'm up writing a$350,000 grant on an opioid settlement to try to purchase a building next door and expand into transitional housing and take our day center from from one day a week to five. It costs time, it takes money, it takes effort. And so, in that giving, though, I the joy is seeing someone's life transformed. It's it's it's seeing our community redeemed, if you will, uh, an old building like we're in a hundred thousand square foot Kmart that took us 12 years to purchase, brought back to life. I mean, I could preach redemption, or I actually I could actually redeem something, like a 100,000 square foot eyesore in the middle of the inner city and breathe life back into it. Glorify my father in heaven, Matthew 5, 16. So all to say those juxtapositions, the disruptive nature of the life of Christ, hey, that's what it's all about, right? You know, who's gonna leave? On the one hand, Jesus says, hey, don't, you know, don't start a journey unless you count the cost, right? Don't build a tower. Who does that? But on the other hand, his father said to Abram, go and I'll show you. He's a, you know, leave your family, your land, your people, and your country, and go where I'm gonna. And Abram's like, where are we going? He says, I'll show you when you get there. So, you know, that's the beauty and the joy, and and uh uh it's not confusing, it just is the way of Christ. And uh collectively and individually we should embrace it.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

We will return to our conversation with Mark Demaz in just a moment. If you're enjoying the Upwards Podcast, we would love for you to take a quick second to rate and review this podcast in your favorite podcast app. Every review helps others discover these thoughtful and hope-filled conversations. You can also find links to Mark's new book, resources on peacemaking, and past episodes in the show notes. If something in this dialogue sparks your imagination, share this episode with a friend, a colleague, or someone in your church community. These conversations are meant to be lived, not just listened to. All right, let's get back to John and Mark as they explore how we can practice peacemaking with humility, intentionality, and courage.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

It seems to me we live in a time, I guess I'm old enough to be able to say this, where we have a bit of a peace deficit. Seems like it's hard for us to trust the one who stands behind the words of this prayer. I wonder if you could speak as you well, let me ask the question this way. As you think about this prayer, where are we most challenged today? And how might you encourage us to lean into that point of challenge?

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Yeah. Man, uh I want to say if I could write a book about that, I'd make a million dollars, but I just did write a book, and I'm probably not making a million dollars. So uh, you know, a challenging thought for sure, and how do you address that uh in a succinct way? I think a couple of things come to mind in response to that question. Yes, it's a peace-challenging time. I suppose, you know, every epoch and era of church history of world history in in every context, in every place around the globe, it's just now that we know about it. And of course, we're living in a certain time in the United States, and and that in our case, a lot of politics and you know, color class and culture clashes and things like that. But really, it's just a universal problem because of sin and human nature. But with that said, I give you a couple of specifics. So um I just wrote an article. I'm a columnist, a contributing editor for Outreach Magazine. So literally, I just sent in my column for the uh May June issue today, and I was reflecting on a statement that I believe has been uh unintentionally co-opted and kind of gotten one degree off, if you will, in terms of separation. And now uh we're all conditioned uh along this line. So the line is well, let me back up before I say that. The entire American country, United States, in my opinion, has lost its ability to think or to speak with nuance. That is a core problem. It's either this or it's that. That and outrage has replaced outreach. Uh, that's how you get likes. That's how people they want to see something outrageous. They want to hear you say something outrageous. They want to, and people have are pushed to polarization, both in terms of the technology and the feeds they receive, and they're trained, if you will, response. Uh, certainly if you're trying to get likes, followers, etc. Fundamentally, in my opinion, the peace deficit in part is driven because people in the United States have lost the ability to think or speak with nuance. And that will be a fundamental principle of being a peacemaker. I mentioned this before. Christ died with his arms outstretched. Think about that visual image. He died with his arms outstretched. He said, If I am lifted up, I will draw all people, not just some people, all people to myself. And think about it. His arms are outstretched. He's holding the Republicans on one end, and he's holding the Democrats, the conservatives, the progressives, the blacks, the whites, uh the rich and the poor. He's holding everybody together in tension. And that is where the unity is. The unity isn't the absence of tension, it's in the tension, not fighting tension, but in Christ holding us all together. Everybody, like Paul says in Philippians 2, do not merely think about your own personal interest, but also the interest of others. And he gives us the example of Christ who leveraged his power, position, and privilege to come down and push us up rather than keep us down under his power, position, and privilege. So losing the ability to think and speak with nuance, thinking about your own personal interests versus thinking about the interests of other people groups. We just saw that. I don't know when this podcast comes out, but the halftime of the Super Bowl, and you've got such polarization and multiple countries being represented, and then, you know, basically uh historic white Christianity being represented or white America, and you've got this polarization, and literally two competing halftime shows, and people are all over the map interpreting what that is. Well, all to say, nuance is at the fundamental level. We have to recover that nuance and learn to speak with it. And secondly, today we are conditioned to make a point, not to witness. So forever, we're the idea is to witness for Christ. The idea is to speak with nuance, to speak in a compelling way and to act in a compelling way that draws people who don't think like you, particularly about Christ, to win them, as we say, to Christ and to our point. If you extrapolate that to debate or to a legal argument or to politics today, shouldn't the goal be that I know something, I believe something, and I would want to reach people who don't think like me in a winsome way with nuance to compel them to see things from my perspective and perhaps change their point of view or their understanding. That is the way you should speak and think. And if you think about it, that's a witness, right? But we don't. We've been conditioned to make direct points and to share our opinion in a passionate, emotional way. And it we've lost witness and we've exchanged it for making a point. Now, if you think about nuance and this idea of being conditioned to make a point, we come back to the way of peace and making peace. Because as little Christs, if you will, the little see Christ, to remove peace-disturbing factors and to walk in our anointing as identified as the children of God, we too should take a posture of Christ with arms outstretched to both sides. Now, that's not both sidism, as some people would say, and it certainly doesn't mean that we we stay silent in the midst of evil or what have you. But this is the article that I wrote, and this is the final thing I'll say, because obviously so much more to say about it. The phrase that I started to talk about that is, in my opinion, taken a detour, one degree of separation got away from its original intent, was the phrase silence is complicity. Silence is complicity has become a mantra in this country and an imperative that says if you don't speak quickly, soon, and essentially to every single issue, the issue of the day, like soup of the day, right? The issue of the day, and every day there's at least one issue. And this idea that if you stay silent, you're complicit. And the statement is silence is complicity. And again, this drives pastors and parishioners feel like they they feel this social pressure. If I don't say something, and of course they have we have the mechanism to do that with an iPhone or what have you, right? Right, that somehow I'm going to be morally or spiritually complicit in perpetuating problems or whatever. What I've reflected deeply on and wrote an article about, along with this idea of nuance and getting back and learning to speak or think with nuance, is to recognize how this phrase got one degree of separation. So here's the correct, in my opinion, this is the truth. Silence can be complicity, but silence is not always complicity. Solomon says that sometimes silence is wisdom. There is a time to speak and there's a time to keep silent. James calls it moral discipline and spiritual maturity. Be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger. And in American culture, we've been conditioned to the exact opposite of what James encourages us to. And in part, that's the reason for that is we bought into the imperative that silence is complicity. Silence can be complicity, but it's not always complicity. Sometimes it's the exercise of spiritual wisdom, sometimes of moral discipline. And again, just like we've gotten away from learning to speak and think with nuance, we've got into the social pressures that demand us if we don't speak on every issue, there's a problem. And then, as I was saying, in the middle of those two things, we then we speak quickly without thought, without prayer, without witness, out of our emotion. And typically today, we speak to our effective base. In other words, we say things so that people go, they like us, they retweet it, they go, you tell them, Mark, you say that, right? And when I do that, when I speak or play to my effective base, all I've done is alienate the very people that I should otherwise want the wind of my argument, if you will.

unknown 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

So learning to be like Christ, arms outstretched to both sides. I want to speak, I want to act. I don't want to do it all the time because I want to exercise wisdom. I want to exercise moral discipline. Uh, but in times I speak one way or another, I want to do so in a way that is nuanced, in a way that is witness that is provides a compelling witness, an attractive witness. I actually don't want to speak to people who already believe like me. I want to think of the interest of others and speak and listen to their concerns and draw them in on common ground and to move them at least one step in my direction, if I in fact believe what I'm saying that is true and good for our country, good for Christ, good for kingdom. So I know that's a long answer, but how do you address that very deep question so much? But if I summed it up, there's this idea of returning to nuance, speaking and thinking with nuance, exercising spiritual wisdom and moral discipline, not always speaking. Silence isn't always complicity. Sometimes it, I mean, it can be, but it's often wisdom or moral discipline. And returning to that and then speaking in such a way so that those who don't agree with you will listen, will hear and receive what it is you're saying, as opposed to alienating them and playing to your effective base.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah, and I think this prayer does that very thing. It slows us down. It helps us uh pause, seek wisdom as to how to respond appropriately to the need and to settle ourselves, right? To to actually come from a posture of where we have something to give and and to offer. And so I think the the prayer is a good example of of all that you've described.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

You know, I would if I could just jump in on that, please, please should also say about the prayer, and that goes back to the reason for the book, is because the anonymous writer uh creates these aspirational hopes. Lord, make me an instrument of peace where there is hatred, let me sow love. But the author doesn't tell us how to sow love. Right. The author doesn't tell us how to extend pardon or forgiveness in the face of offense or injury. Um, and and so that's essentially what the book is: taking line by line these aspirational hopes and prayers of the original author and then fleshing them out in how do we then live.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah. I mean, it everybody would be helped if they, you know, put a little miniature version of this uh up on their um screen, right? On their monitor. Uh, every time you're sort of tempted to rip off something on social media, you pause and read this prayer. I mean, I I have in my email just a little, a little folder that is kind of a pause folder. And I will often, when I have a hard or thorny email I have to write, I will draft it, uh, try to do it as gently and kindly as I can, and then I will park it in that pause folder for a while to make sure that as I come back to it, I still feel good about the email. So I think very much this prayer is a prayer that helps us to move out of that binary culture, the binary forces that want us to weigh in on one side or the other rather than seeking nuance and understanding that's so crucial. One of the things that Mark came out of this book for me was, and it's true anyone, um, but for you, you know, I think this this holds true. You know, you've done a lot of living as well. You talked about the ministry there. You've you've been through a lot of uh pain and joy in your own life. You talk about some of that in the book. And I wonder to what extent, you know, this prayer has been helpful to you. I wonder if you might share a story or two out of your own life where either this prayer or the origins of this prayer or passages that contribute to this prayer from Scripture have helped you to be a peacemaker or to seek peace and move against fear and some of the other things that I think could could occupy mind and heart. How has all of this been helpful for you in your own life or you know, uh in the life of your congregation as well?

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Yeah, you know, John, uh talking about stories in the book, uh early on I share, you know, my background, which we talked about a little bit at the beginning of our time together today. And being born out of wedlock, uh, no father. My mother had an affair with uh uh a married man. He had three children. I don't even bear his last name. Mother married another man to cover up the pregnancy. In 1961, only 5% of kids were born without fathers in their homes. And it was very much a time of stigmatization for single mothers like my mom. There weren't resources. They were looked down upon. I was called the B-word. I remember when I was called that at six or seven years old, and I had to look it up. What did that mean? So it was a very different time for single parents and children growing up without legitimacy, if you will. And so in that sense, I was born marginalized, right? My mother was white. My father was Italian, Russian Jew. His father came from Sicily. His mother was a Russian Jew from Ukraine, what we call today Kyiv, Ukraine. But none of that ethnic or cultural stuff, I didn't know anything about that till late in my teens. But the point is, just without a father and with a mother working three jobs just to keep food on the table, we were not poor. We were working lower class. I was selling Avon with her on the streets of Alameda at seven years of age. We had a five-block territory. I've worked all my life and just blue collar, if you will. But all to say, in my own journey, I for different reasons. So somebody might say, Oh, I was born black in America or whatever, and that they they have their own individual and collective story. Mine isn't related to color as much as it is to class and to marginalization related to being born out of wedlock at a time when that was very much looked down upon. So all to say, I've always felt like an outsider. I've always felt marginalized, and that has given me eyes to see. And as I came to know Christ and develop my faith further, moving away from the early life of Christ in Catholicism to taking more responsibility as I got older for my own faith and my faith journey. Who I am, if you will, at the core in that sense, uh, or my life experience, my lived experience, as many people say, is conditioned me to see uh the world through a different lens. I uh in that sense, I wasn't privileged, and uh, but I've had a lot of privilege. I got to attend Jesuit College President School on a work scholarship. So you can see some privilege and some, you know, not so much privilege. We're all like that, uh, a lot of intersectionality. So, all to say, I think my own story, I've always grieved. I mean, down to the point, like I don't like to smash an ant with my foot and kill it. I don't know. Maybe I'm just different. But I feel sorry. I feel uh, you know, I don't want to do that. And and and so maybe I'm wired that way, but I think my story shapes that. And then, of course, as I get older and fall in love with Jesus and I see his heart for the marginalized, how quick he is to forgive. You know, woman, where are your accusers? You know, he doesn't he doesn't say, well, go do this, go do that, and then maybe we can get right. Instantly, he's like, hey, go and sin no more. I heard a great line the other day, John. There is no future in the past. And I see Christ like that. He's so gracious and so merciful and so forgiving. And it's not like he, you know, blows off our sin, uh, nor should we. Like I think it was Peter, right? He's like, hey, just don't go sin because God will say, forgive you, or or he'll forgive you. But God is so gracious, he's like, you know, just keep going. Don't quit. And and I love that about our Savior, that we're not, he's not punitive, right? He disciplines, but it's always in love, and he gives us a path forward. And so all to say, I think in my own story, that's why I brought up uh some of that early in the book to know where I'm coming from. I needed someone to make peace in my life. I didn't have peace uh along the lines I'm saying without a father, no brothers and sisters, having to fend for myself literally and all my work back. But I found that peace in Christ. And I, because of my background, I've always wanted to extend it to the marginalized. And when I see injustice or, you know, again, even terms of why are all these churches white and all these churches are black and we believe in the same God, something's not right about that. How can I I don't like to use the word bridge, but how can I lean into that and bring people together as it will be one day in heaven? So for what it's worth, uh and then when you realize this is central to our identity in Christ, blessed are the peacemakers, they are identified. There is no closer you can be, and nothing more you can do to get closer to Jesus than act on his behalf as a peacemaker, follow in his footsteps. All of us are longing for security and significance. And I have found that in Christ, and I found that in the work of peacemaking.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I appreciated your book. You share some stories of grief and despair for your own family, communities that you've led and you have trusted and uh God in those moments. And the principles of this peace prayer have been um really important for you. And I've I found that found it really inspiring to hear your story and just to see how um God met you in those times. So for those who are thinking about the book, I think you'll find the book really tender in that way, and I encourage you to to pick it up and and and and really learn about you, Mark. I really appreciated that part of the book. Um, just as you disclose some of your own journey.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

I just want to say I really appreciate your thoughts. As I said, I've never written a book for just anybody to read. It's usually in it weekend. So I appreciate your take and your experience with the book. And I I really do appreciate you uh, I think you called it tenderness or feeling that vulnerability in the book. Uh, one thing early on, I tell you, hey, I am not God's gift of peacemaking, right? I got Italian, Russian Jew blood in me, and I can get excited. But it's something I understand. I'm striving to be, uh, I strive to lead our community that way. And again, I'm just on a journey. And that's what I'm inviting people on to is this journey of understanding, of embodiment, and then of formation, looking to be more uh increasing like Christ and knowing the world three steps forward, two steps back kind of thing. Uh but that gives me a lot of confidence for the book. And secondly, not only am I not God's gift of peacemaking, man, I went through a very dark time in my life. Uh many people call it midlife crisis, and it probably gets labeled that way. And uh when you talk about this prayer, darkness, you know, or or where there's despair, hope in our family and in the church life. I mean, you know, just times, like I said on the inner tube, you just think, you know, you're gonna go flying off. This is over, and and how could God love me? How could God use me? I literally preached that this past Sunday in our church, talking about here's this great apostle Paul. He wrote like one-third of the entire New Testament, like 10% of every word in of all the words in the Bible, 8 to 10%, 7-8, something like that. Incredible guy. I mean, I would think like that guy's got to be righteous and holy, right? And he's the missionary, he's the evangelist, and uh he suffers and he dies and he's I mean, this guy has got, if there's any righteous, holy man apart from Christ, it's gotta be Paul. And what does he say about himself in Romans 7? Every day I struggle with this. The thing I want to do, I don't do. Evil is a constant presence within me. The things I don't want to do, I find myself doing. The things I do want to do, I don't do them. Oh, wretched man that I am. I mean, that is like that's the apostle Paul. So I told him, hey, we're all in good company there. So I really appreciate you leaning in and experiencing the book the way you did, because it's, you know, I don't try to be honest. I'm just being honest and vulnerable in in a lot of ways. And I think we're we're all better for it if we're like that. And I'm not qualified to do what I do, John. I was just called to do it. And yeah, and I and I try to walk in that calling, you know, again, not at all perfect. But the thing about if there's anything I, you know, you say, of course it's God's credit, but if if I've done anything, it's I just haven't quit. I haven't quit on God. I haven't quit on myself, I haven't quit on my family, my wife, my life. I I just keep going. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think you win if you don't quit, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

It takes me to my question. Three things, Mark, that the disciplines, things we could work on to be more effective instruments of peace. Give me your top three. They may not be the top three for everyone, but out of your own experience, what are some things we can can practice to help us be better peacemakers in the world?

SPEAKER_02 52:29

Yeah, well, you you shared one very practical tip. And I will say that um, as I mentioned, I write for outreach. I wrote an article several years ago on seven guiding principles for practicing peace. So this wasn't isn't a new topic for me uh in terms of teaching or even writing, but certainly it is a book form now. But in that article, uh, and you can look my name up if listeners want, they can look my name up, Mark Demaz on Outreach magazine. I got all my articles there, and you can find the one that's uh uh seven guiding principles for promoting peace. And so you asked for three, but you you already got one. It's the fifth on the list, right? Always pause before you speak. You you talked about that folder. What a great idea. Uh and so that's one. But let me give you that, I'll just rattle them off and people can think of it. Yeah, that's great. The point is avoid dogmatic statements. We talked about that a little bit. We're conditioned now to make these points, but we're called to witness, not make points and be so direct. So when you make dogmatic statements, it plays to the effective base, polarizes those who don't leave. So just like this is a dogmatic statement. Uh, silence is complicity. That's a dogmatic statement. But a more nuanced statement that maintains the truth of it, but allows for other rationale is silence can be complicit, right? So avoid dogmatic statements, ask good questions rather than uh, you know, assume. Can I ask you? I years ago I learned that great question from someone, help me understand, right? Help me understand from your perspective. Good question, ask good questions. Third, assume the best of others. In my church, we have we for all these years, we've had the leading Democrat in the entire state of Arkansas, African-American woman single. We have a white guy who's literally works for Sarah Huckabee, a Republican, and they love each other, they love this church, they love Jesus because they know even though they disagree on policies, they don't doubt one another's motivations and heart. And they assume the best. Like in other words, whether you're the Republican or Democrat, how you're exercising what you're promoting in society as Christ followers and knowing each other in church, they know it comes from a place of wanting to advance the common good. But the ways in which they both want to advance the common goods are often very diametrically opposed. But that doesn't stand in their way of being Christ-centered people, Christians who love each other, who walk as one in this church. And all that's to say assume the best of others, right? Uh advance faith, not fear. We're supposed to be the people of faith, but all we do, it seems, I shouldn't say all of us, that's a dogmatic statement. But so many pastors and so many Christians are just embracing fear, advancing fear, not speaking from a place of faith and offering hope and light and life as they make direct points without remembering to be a witness, right? So advance faith, not fear, always pause before you speak. Acknowledge complexities, number six. I mean, all of these like just something as simple as a Super Bowl. It's not all bad, it's not all good. There, it's complex, right? Even back to the Reformation. I mean, literally, people have been burnt at the stake for things we take for granted today. You know, uh, do you baptize by immersion or do you sprinkle, right? Can we read the Bible in our own language, or do we have to read it in Latin or Greek or whatever? So, you know, uh, all to say, these fundamental arguments and diff disagreements, the reason they exist is because there's complexity. I have a phrase that I use often, John, that everybody's right about something. So that's also good to remember. Everybody's right about something. I want to listen to you in a way, if you disagree with me or we're, you know, have different opinions. I want to be listening to find the part that you're saying that I may have missed, that I may not have acknowledged. And I, because I know that we all are right about something. I want to find out what it is you're right about, perhaps what I'm not thinking about, or maybe I'm wrong in. And lastly, whatever the conversation is, add balance to the discussion. Right? Add balance. So if someone is saying X, I want to bring in, introduce the Y. If somebody's saying, you know, Y, I want to introduce the X. Because again, everybody, uh, these things are complex. I want to think and speak with nuance. I want to add balance to the conversation because at the end of the day, I don't want to just play to people who think like me. I want to reach people who don't think like me and hopefully move the needle a little bit. And fundamentally, that has to do with representing Jesus well.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Yeah, such good principles. And, you know, the the more I immerse myself in the principles of your book and just have this conversation, you know, there's so much to gain in organizational life from these principles as well. I mean, these apply to us personally, but they're things that play out in the life of our institutions as well. And just the way we, you know, hold meetings and the way that we invite discussion in meetings, uh, even in your response, you caught yourself uh in a dogmatic statement, uh, which I thought was was beautiful. You know, and do we have the self-perception, self-understanding to catch those kinds of things? I mean, there's so much opportunity to grow and learn. I've learned a lot from our conversation, reading your book personally, but also organizationally.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Yeah, thank you. You know, it's called in in cultural intelligence training, it's called checking. Like, are we mature enough to check ourselves? And that's basically, I'm not saying I'm, you know, God's gift of maturity, but but in the language of cultural intelligence, I was able to check myself because I said a dogmatic statement and I caught it and I checked myself and I corrected it. And again, that requires, I suppose, humility and transparency, which, as we know, would go a long way to making peace in this world.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

Yeah. Well, I know early on you say you don't know what your projects are. You just kind of let the spirit move you when it's time to put pen to paper. But what's coming up in your life? I I'd I'd like to end the interview. Just um something you're working on, or maybe it's a an important inflection point in the life of your church. Um, but anything you'd like to share, we certainly will be in prayer alongside you uh here in Madison, but would love to learn just, you know, one or two things that are kind of top of agenda for you as you think about this next season.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

Well, thank you very much. I I know uh yeah, and just like you know, lots of folks. We got lots of irons in the fire, as they say, things that are burnt and things we'd like to pour some gas on. But a couple of quick things come to mind. I'd appreciate your your prayers and thoughts. We're trying to acquire uh 32,000, 35,000 square foot building next door to us. Uh it's been three and a half years of negotiation. They started at five and a half million just two weeks ago. They gave me 30 days to buy it at 350,000. Uh and so it's been a long obedience in the same direction. But our plan is transitional housing for uh opioid acts on the street, the second floor, and wraparound services on the first. So that's I'm literally submitting a grant for that to uh the attorney general today, prayerfully to get that bill, at least get the ownership, and then we can work towards that future, which will continue to bring uh advance good to our community, engage people at the Bridge of Christ Humanity. The other thing, and you're the first person to I'm not even announcing this for you know three or four more weeks till I go to a big conference at Exponential in Orlando on church planning. But um, after all these years, it's just time to have a network in America, uh, certainly and around the world, but particularly here in America, where um it's a church planting network where it is fully focused on building healthy multi-ethnic churches. I got a lot of good friends who lead church planning networks and denominationally, and they do great work, uh, but there's no singularly focused church planting effort on building healthy, multi-ethnic, culturally intelligent, socially just, financially sustainable churches. Uh, it's a thing that some denominations or networks can help you with, but it is not the thing that they help you with. And it's just time. So uh we're at the end of the first quarter of a hundred-year movement. And so in about three or four weeks, mid-March, we'll be announcing a church planting initiative within Mosaic's Global Network, which is our national and international facing work dedicated to people that have a desire to plant healthy, multi-ethnic, just, sustainable churches. And so I'm very excited about that, hopeful. And just like everything I've done in my life, John, there's no money. I have, I don't have one penny to do this, but it just needs to be done. And uh, we're just gonna, like Abram, like I said in the beginning, just take the first step and keep going. But I know it's time, and so I'm very hopeful uh for the sake of the movement and the sake of the gospel that we'll be able to put this together over the next three to five, seven years and uh it'll build uh something for well into the future. Because ultimately, as we said at our national conference in November, the collective movement set a goal uh to see 11 o'clock on Sunday morning be the most undivided hour of the week by the year 2050. And to get there, we're gonna have to plant a whole lot of more churches and transition a lot of homogeneous churches to being the kind of churches this network will help plant and establish. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

Beautiful. We'll end it there. We'll put the details uh to your work and uh this book and other books that you've written in our show notes so uh readers and viewers can can find the details easily. Mark, thank you. This has been a joy. Thanks for your work. Just you're a blessing uh to the life of the church, and we we deeply appreciate you here in Madison. You bet, John. Thanks so much for having me today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:02

Thank you for listening to today's episode of the Upwards Podcast. Our thanks to Mark Damas for a moving and insightful conversation, one that calls us to slow down, embrace nuance, and root our lives in Christ's call to be peacemakers. Mark reminds us that peacemaking isn't passive, it is the courageous act of sowing love where there is hatred and hope where despair takes root. If this episode encouraged you, consider sharing it with someone who longs for greater peace in their life, their community, or their congregation. You'll find links to Mark's books, his ministry work, and additional resources in the show notes. To hear more conversations like this, subscribe to the Upwards Podcast in your favorite podcast app and visit slbf.org/slash studio. Until next time, keep looking upward and living with purpose. Go in peace.