Building Madison: Placemaking, Belonging, and the City We're Becoming

What does it take to build a city where every person truly belongs? In this episode of The UpWords Podcast, we walk the streets of Madison, Wisconsin — metaphorically and literally — with two people who have spent their careers shaping it.

Host Rebecca Cooks welcomes Jason Ilstrup, president of Downtown Madison Inc., and Peter Tan, architect and Chief Design Officer Emeritus of Strang Inc., to discuss placemaking, the shifting character of downtown, the challenges of growth, and what it actually means to build a flourishing city for everyone.

From the magic of Memorial Union Terrace to the bold vision of the Envision Madison plan, this conversation is for anyone who loves their city and wants to understand how to make it better.

In This Episode

• Why Jason and Peter both call Madison's Union Terrace the city's "living room"
• The transformation of the East Washington corridor over 30 years
• What the Envision Madison plan is — and how you can have your say in shaping it
• The honest truth about gentrification: what it is, why it happens, and how good design can help
• Why development should always be seen as an opportunity, not a threat
• The "triple bottom line" for flourishing cities: people, planet, and profit
• Madison's approach to affordable housing — and why the most sustainable building is the one that already exists

GUEST BIOS

Jason Ilstrup — President, Downtown Madison Inc.

Jason has been a Madisonian since 2007 and has spent his career championing the city's downtown. As a former general manager of Hotel Red and now president of Downtown Madison Inc. (DMI), Jason brings hospitality, energy, and a deep love for people to the work of urban strategy and placemaking. He is currently leading the private-sector component of the landmark Envision Madison planning initiative.

Peter Tan — Architect & Chief Design Officer Emeritus, Strang Inc.

Peter moved to Madison in 1991 and has spent over three decades shaping the city's built environment. As an architect, he believes deeply that good design belongs to everyone — not just those with means. He has been involved in landmark projects across Madison.

Resources & Links
Envision Madison: downtownmadison.org

City of Madison planning resources: cityofmadison.com

CONNECT WITH US

Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

CONNECT WITH US
Subscribe to The UpWords Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and visit slbf.org/studio to learn more about our work at the intersection of faith, the academy, and the marketplace.

This episode was created by the SLBF STUDIO at Upper House.

Produced by Daniel Johnson and Dave Conour

Edited by Dave Conour

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

One should always look at development as potentially a good thing. Because if you say that development will always be a bad thing, you've already lost before you even started. Development means change, which means when there's a change, there is an opportunity to right systemic wrong. And so how that development happens is where the magic is.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Welcome to the Upwards Podcast, where we explore the intersection of Christian faith in the academy, the church, and the marketplace. Today, we're stepping into the heart of Madison, its streets, its public spaces, its history, and its future. We're joined by two longtime Madison, avid bikers in all weather, and dear friends of the city. Jason Eelstrip, president of Downtown Madison Inc., and Peter Tan, architect and chief design officer emeritus of Strang Inc. Together, they've spent years helping Madison grow. Not just in buildings, but in beauty, belonging, and the flourishing of its people. In this conversation, we talk about placemaking, the changing character of downtown Madison, the challenges of growth, and what it means to build a city where every person is valued. Whether you've lived in Madison for decades or are new to the area, this episode invites you to see your city and your role within it with fresh eyes.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Well, Jason and Peter, great to have you on the podcast. You each have led a couple walking tours with us over the last two summers. I'm looking at downtown Madison. Jason, you led a tour on the upcoming development in downtown Madison. And then Peter, you were leading a walking tour on placemaking, kind of focused around campus. And the motivation behind those was: can we help people in Madison get to know the city even more to then be for their city or to seek the flourishing of the city? And so I think that's what we'll dig into more for this podcast. But before we dive into that, you two know each other already. Um can you just tell us a little bit about how you work with how you work?

SPEAKER_07 2:09

Oh, totally. That'd be awkward if it was just one of you.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Tell me more. How have you guys worked together? How do you know each other?

SPEAKER_06 2:16

Yeah, we first met, oh, probably almost 10 years ago now on a project that I was working on. I was managing Hotel Red and doing development in Hotel Red. We're going to do a vertical expansion now, actually. Uh uh the apartments, right? Yes. Stadium apartments, stadium loft. And Peter is an amazing architect, the chief design officer at String. And we were working with them on what that could look like. And one of my first moments with Peter was up on the roof of the hotel, which is a no-edge, no railing roof. Because you're not supposed to have the one. So it's like I only had the, I was one of the only people who had the key as the manager.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

And doesn't it taper?

SPEAKER_06 2:51

It does. Oh, I am, I am scared of heights. I'm I'm my hands are sweating right now, just thinking about the idea. And Peter just basically sprints over to the front edge right at the prowl where Monroe Street and Regent come together. A five-story drop, you know, certainly would have dropped to his death. And he just, but he needed this angle because he wanted to look at the design and what this, what this could be. And I just really was enamored with Peter from then on and his creativity, his willingness to try things, his great love for the built environment, for downtowns, which is something, of course, I also love. Yes. But also just his great love of people. I mean, he's this wonderful Madison who gives so much to our community. And he and I have had a wonderful relationship since, and I've been so fortunate to call him a friend.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Well, thank you so much. That's so so gracious of you.

SPEAKER_06 3:47

And you did fall off the roof.

SPEAKER_07 3:48

I was a little worried about the insurance and that too as a policy holder, but you didn't fall off.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

But that was the corner, though. That was the corner of the building. You know, it's right there in the prow, and it was just like this was the the most important kind of corner exterior expression for that building. Yes. And you know, I just want to say, Jason, I mean, I think you just made Hotel Red what it was. That's very sweet. And uh and you know, when I think of you know, general managers of hotels, uh, I just think of like, are they as good as Jason? I mean, you just kind of That's a fair question. I mean, you reflect like hospitality, you know, enthusiasm. I mean, just that kind of thing. And you're empowering everyone in your the organization to just do things well. And so when when I heard that you became um president of DMI, I'm like, yes. This makes sense. What a what an amazing choice. I mean, just that just the right guy for the job. That that means a lot coming from you guys.

SPEAKER_06 4:51

Have been longtime members. In fact, you moved your offices downtown while I was president. So thank you. Um, but it basically running DMI is just running a larger hotel. It's the same working parts, and I we try to treat it the same and be hospitable to folks and our members and the community in the downtown. And um, it's just been great to get to know you, and I'm excited to do this podcast with you. Excited. You'll take me to some controversial places, I bet.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

You might. We'll see how how spicy we're feeling today. Okay, wow. Thank you for that. Appreciate it. Um, okay, so just as a fun question, if each of you had someone visiting you in Madison, what is one activity or place that you would absolutely need to take them?

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Union Terrace.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

No hesitation.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

That's the hesitation. I mean, it's got everything you want to have in a public space. Yes. Where people flourish. I mean, you know, you you got you got food, you got activity, you got performances, and it's year-round too. Um just just as fast as we can, in fact. You know, you you had the the frozen assets thing, right? Yes. And the whole of Lake Mendota from the Edgewater all the way to the Union Terrace was just like people everywhere. You know, you got Lady Liberty, and then you know, you had part of the Union Terrace was was uh had snow on it, and uh, you know, it's for for snowboarding and stuff like that. So it's like year-round stuff. I mean, it's it's truly Madison's living room.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yes, that's a great way to phrase that, a living room. I like that a lot. Wow. Okay, excellent.

SPEAKER_06 6:27

Well, it's a well-lived living room, too. I mean, it really is a special place. And I think when you tell out of towners, like, well, go to the campus union. I mean, they're thinking back to their old campus if they went to college. Right. Oh, mine was maybe in a basement or whatever. No, this is a truly special place. And it has been that way for a hundred years. And it's a student union first, of course, but it really is the community gathering space in downtown. I mean, it's not a coincidence. It is by far the number one visited uh tourist attraction in downtown. I mean, it's not even close, it's like double the next location. Um, the other space though I would always urge people to go to, and I love that question of where would you bring a visitor? Because it often allows us to look at our city differently. Yes. I think we we take for granted some of the greatest things in the city because we don't need to go to that museum every day and whatnot. But when you have a visitor, you want to see it through their eyes. And there's this pride you have to show them these places, like the union. The other one I will say is the state capitol, right? I mean, the state capital, yeah, the city is built around the state capitol. Um, it's just an incredible building, right? The architecture of the building itself is stunning, right? Compared to other state capitals, just compared to any building. Uh, but my highlight is always the observation deck. It's to get people onto that observation deck. And we use it all the time for work because we start any tour we ever give, if it's from out-of-towners or investors or whoever, sure. The church group that wants to come downtown, we start there. Because generally, people don't understand what an isthmus is, right? They don't get it. But when you're up on what is it, the sixth or seventh, eighth floor, whatever it is at the Capitol, you really understand what an isthmus is. And you can see everything from on high because it's well above the Capitol height limit. You can see down State Street, you can see the two lakes. In fact, you can see farther on good days, you can see the airport, you can see the whole campus. Yes. Really is a wonderful place to show off our city. But to be honest, it also shortens what would normally be a two-hour tour without towners to about 15 million. Okay. Because you can just do one loop.

SPEAKER_05 8:40

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 8:41

So there's a selfish reason for this. But between those two, you can't go wrong. And the fact that the latest generation of planners in Madison, right? Because I think we have to acknowledge that the Ho Chunk have been living on this land 10, 11, 12,000, 13,000 years. But the latest iteration did something very right. And they connected our flag state's flagship campus, UW, to our state capital through State Street. And I think we are so lucky to have that incredible piece of infrastructure asset, but also true amenity for our community.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

And every great city has got this major sequence of public spaces. And Madison's is that sequence of public spaces that connects the Union Terrace with the Capitol. Yeah, right. You you are you are um you're on Lake Mendota in the Union Terrace, and you walk down through Library Mall, down State Street, to the Capitol, and then down Mount Luthiang Boulevard to the other lake. Yes, Nona Terrace. So that that is that's a defining kind of public sequence of Madison. And one of the things that's great about the state capitol is the uh urban fabric of the city, urban fabric of the isthmus actually continues spatially through the building. Yes. The building next to street run through it. It's truly the the kind of it it it metaphorically, it's like the people's space, right? You can just walk through it on a cool. And it's open, right? You know, we get a lot of outer towners come in and they're and this is like no security. Right.

SPEAKER_06 10:17

I do I don't like that I have to say this. But they're surprised by the fact that you can just walk in, right? And I remember unfortunately there was an incident a few years ago when I I believe uh I can't remember the exact incident, but a gun was brought in and and and they're worried about Tony Ever's safety, the governor. And I remember the governor and uh Robin Voss, which they don't always agree, we can say that. Yeah, but they agreed that they wanted to keep the people's house open. And I love that. I mean, you see all sorts of people in there at all times. Uh, you know, a lot of Madisonians use it. I'll admit it in downtown I use it as sort of my winter hallway between the two. I'm always surprised by how people don't know where they're going. I'm like, just look at the light bulbs. And so now you know, you maybe didn't even know that. Yes. The light bulbs have both the directions and the street names on them. So you because because if you do get in the center, all eight of those entrances look similar. But no, this one's MLK, this one's State Street, this one's Hamilton, this, you know. Yeah. And it's it's a really it's such an amazing building. And I hope, knock on wood, that we're able to keep it open at all times for our entire community, the whole state of Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_05 11:24

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Recently um at the uh Martin Luther King, it was just wonderful. We were we were there for the celebration, my wife and I, and it was like, I love this. You know, we're celebrating this right in the Capitol. And it's gorgeous and amazing things. This is like the other living room of Madison. Yeah, and one outdoor. The acoustics of the room, the space.

SPEAKER_06 11:50

I mean, everything about the room is is so special. And so many special things have happened in that not just the legislation, of course, that gets passed there and you know, the meetings that happen there, but it's the concerts. It's the you know, the holiday decorations and the the the Christmas tree every year. It's it's it's an amazing space. And we are very lucky to have it literally right at the center of downtown.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

And inside and out, right? Yeah. Because the Capitol Square by extension, too, right? You know? Yes. Consus on the square. I mean, that that is just such a defining thing for Madison. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:22

Farmers market, right? It's the it's the largest locally produced farmers market in the country. I think Madison don't realize it. They may realize it at 10 o'clock on a Saturday in July when it's warming with you. Correct. And they try to go clockwise. Don't why they're doing that, I don't know. But it really, it really drives 25,000 people to the Capitol Square. I mean, that's the envy of anyone, any other downtown zide, to have an incredible farmer's market like that. We have so many of those things. And Peter's right to point out, that might not have happened if it wasn't for the actual architecture and the landscape architecture of that space to create that Capitol Square.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Right, right. And which is the heart of placemaking, where can you establish the public spaces in such a way that people want to live, work, and play there? That's that's fantastic. My parents um went to school at UW Madison, but then I was born and raised in Iowa, but I grew up with pictures of more Memorial Union Terrace on um the walls and calendars of campus. And then my parents just moved back to Madison this year, and one of the first things they wanted to do was a tour of the Capitol. And that's what we did. Um, so yeah, those places are iconic and they stick with you.

SPEAKER_06 13:32

I thought they were gonna say the first thing they want to do is get some Babcock ice cream.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

No, but I think that's just um age and health reasons. They're not trying to do the dairy as much, but it's still great. Like I still got my favorite flavor.

SPEAKER_05 13:42

Uh what is it?

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Um mocumakiado. Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_07 13:46

What's yours, Peter?

SPEAKER_06 13:48

Oh, um my God, we just dumped him?

SPEAKER_02 13:51

I know this is exciting.

SPEAKER_07 13:52

Do not eat ice cream ratchet's my lactose intolerance, and I'm like asking him what a few ice cream is. My favorite, my favorite. I I typically just think Brian is just eat Brian's ice cream.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_07 14:03

I don't, yeah. So it's a great non-Wisconsin product.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

After this conversation, we go and walk down.

SPEAKER_06 14:13

At least go to chocolate shop.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Oh, also, also really good. Well, what's your favorite?

SPEAKER_06 14:17

Oh, Union Utopia. I also do really love the orange uh uh custard chocolate chip. I mean, it is that I mean that's their signature flavor. Yeah, it's oddly refreshing, which it shouldn't be because you're consuming like, you know, your daily sodium and dairy and all the rest.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Yep, it's great. Okay, well, as has been established, you guys are longtime Madisonians. Um, how have you seen the city change since when you first got here? What are you what it what it's looking like now, whether good or bad, how have you seen it change?

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah. So I got here in 1991, moved here for my wife to go to grad school. Great like a lot of people. Um and uh you know, back then it was uh it was, I mean it was state capital, it was uh location of the you know Flagshaw University, but it was a sleepy little town, I mean compared to today. I mean, it really was. So um I think that some one of the most significant changes is that it's actually become um become more of a major city, you know, just from a standpoint of the just the design discourse too. I mean, uh, as an architect, when I first came to town, I mean there were some significant pieces of architecture and all that, but I mean a lot has happened in the last thirty years. Yes in in our city. Um and um the whole um for example, the whole East Washington corridor when when I first got here, it was just like, you know, I mean that's the the east-facing gateway to Madison. It is. And look at what has happened over the past uh so uh three decades or so, and uh um and it's really grown to become just uh you know a really vibrant place. And and that's been because uh the city of Madison has actually done a great job um planning for this. And the the master plans, uh the downtown plan gets gets updated every so uh often. And uh and that's really been very uh that whole process has been very um successful in actually guiding the development very well. I mean the other thing uh that has uh that has um happened over the past three decades is the East Campus Mall, which is the uh created a whole north-south connection through the terrace all the way down, and then it's become the catalyst for um the Triangle Neighborhood, debut. And then well, we can talk about the gateway, uh the the Lake Way project as well, which is really exciting. But back to the the the um um downtown plan, what's really exciting currently Jason, you can tell a little quite a bit more about this. We're currently in this um um in uh we are the city of Madison is actually currently doing uh yet the the next uh the the current kind of update to the downtown plan. Yes. But what's really exciting and what's unique about this time around is concurrent with the downtown plan, DMI is doing uh a downtown strategy which would focus you know more on economic development and and the flourishing of the city and stuff, while the downtown plan more deals with zoning and the physical kind of things. So but together, and it's all it's called Envision Madison, and it's gonna just bring Madison one step further. But I mean, I'm sure you can speak a lot more to that.

SPEAKER_06 17:50

Well, I'm just glad you're excited about it. I mean, being in the middle of it, you never know what uh people are are are thinking. But it really is a unique model for us. It's a it's a somewhat cutting edge, even across America, that you have a private institution, uh a nonprofit like ours, downtown Madison Lake, with many partners, including uh Destination Madison, the Greater Madison Chamber of Commerce, uh Madison Central Business Improvement District, many organizations that are combining to create um a greater downtown economic investment strategy, which we think is a first of its kind document for Madison. Certainly it's been done in other downtowns before, but the uniqueness is that we're doing it in coordination and cooperation with the city of Madison, right? So the government as they start their work on the downtown plant. Again, that land use document, the usages, um, the density, the stepbacks, the stepbacks. These are these are key things. Yes. I don't think the average Madison understands this is a okay, this is subjective for me, but but as a lawyer, I can understand some of it. I would say that the city city's number one, unencumbered power. Where so there's not, you know, uh police advice, there's a check in this in the state system. Uh education, there's a check through a school board, right? But unencumbered power for a city in Wisconsin, and particularly a big city like Madison, is land use. They have basically full power in land use. Now there's some state preemptions here or there, but basically they have full power. They the home rule has given them the power to do what they need to. So this is a very important document. And I would say it's an and they're doing this throughout the entire city. So they're updating what they're now calling area plans. They're currently working on Southeast and Southwest. They did the West before and the north. So they're working their way through the whole city, but strategically they're doing the downtown plan and then immediately the Near East and the Near West. So it covers basically the entire isthmus. And on the isthmus, look, we're so privileged, lucky, blessed to have the isthmus, but it does, it produces significant opportunity. But it also provides significant challenges. And as our city continues to grow, actually, to answer the question I think you were bringing forward, it's growing significantly downtown. And I've been here since 2007, and I've literally watched it in the last 20 years go from a big little city to a little big city right in front of our eyes. Yes. Uh, and that means you know, more people, more things to do, which is there's a lot of good to it, but there are a lot of challenges, right? With infrastructure challenges, with with traffic, with you know, all sorts of of bigger city challenges that we maybe have not seen in this city before. I would say that it's we're in a better position to be growing than not growing. And we're very unique to that in the Midwest. There are many cities in I think the Southeast and Southwest that are growing pretty significantly. But in the Midwest, there aren't many comparative cities that are growing at the pace that we are. Interesting. Uh and so we have challenges in front of us to be able to get this right. Because we don't, we can't screw it up. If screwing it up means more traffic, bad transit systems, uh uh, we have an affordable biasing crisis right now, even worse, right? And so we have to be very intentional. And I think it gets back to the model that Peter just discussed of what we've already done in the Cat East district. This was a well-planned area. This was uh the significant work by the planning divisions, the economic development division, the political figures in the city of Madison for the last 20 years, you know, led by many different groups, Vanderwall Associates, you all, many folks that have been a part of this. But equally, the private sector was a big part of it. And it wouldn't have worked without the private sector moving on some of that private land. The planning had to be there, but the private sector has to actually do the building. And folks like Otto Gephardt, right, that that took the first chance. But it's also folks like the city of Madison that took a chance on renovating Breeze Stevens, which has been a catalytic project for that area. It's the city of Madison that also built the BRT that runs right through that system. Right. I'm sorry, right the system runs right through uh that corridor. It's folks like Frank Productions who put in the Sylvie, the building that you're in, right? Right. Uh, you know, just amazing space. The block that Peter was on that is bounded by the Sylvie all the way uh uh to where the new neutral project is, is could be a textbook in redevelopment in a city, right? To add density, but to do it in the right way, still preserving many of the buildings, including the Garner Bakery site, but adding density, adding an office, adding hotel and residential, that block could be in a textbook for how to get things right. We need to do that more throughout the city. We need to be very uh cognizant of what has made Madison successful in the past uh and get that right and know that that that we can't use um a hammer for all of these different zoning changes that we need to have we need to be smart with it but I do think the city right now particularly under the lead of Mayor Rhodes Conway uh but most importantly with Matt Walter, uh Megan Tuttle who head up the planning divisions for the city of Madison, they have understood we need to do density in nodes where it's appropriate on large arterial roads and then make connections between those. So the great example is like the BRT that connects downtown to Hilldale now. Yep. Right and you see all that density in Hilldale a lot of vacant parking lots, you know, a lot of low density we now can add significant more density without some of the negative effects we might see in other places. Now I live near there's certainly pushback in certain places and you have to get it right. But I think there's ways to get it right and we have to because you can't put a bubble around the city. Right. Folks are coming right Madison has the highest proportion of Gen Z new hires of any city in the country. Wow. Say that one more time proportionally the most amount of new Gen Z hires are here of any city in the country. Now it's proportional right but it's still six, seven thousand new folks every single year. Of course much that's driven by Epic, the success of Epic, Exact Sciences, Promega, the university is growing right it's at its second highest uh enrollment ever after last year, and they probably would have been higher, but obviously there were some challenges with international students this year and some other things. But we're seeing people want to move to Madison and they're moving here because the economy's going well but they're really I think moving here because it's a it for most people not everyone but for most people it is a great place to live. Our goal should be it it should be a great place for everyone to live. And we have to do significant work on that. Absolutely because if you're uh you know uh uh you know BIPOC if you're um people with less means in the city right if you're economic you don't have the same economics as the rest of the city it can be a very challenging place to live in and in particular the downtown. And our goal should be in placemaking should be to follow the lead of one of our great board members a woman named Angela Russell who's a longtime chief diversity officer at uh True Stage CUNY Mutual before that. And she says Jason our mission for our organization should be to create soulful places and soulful spaces for everyone in the downtown we're doing that now for some and I think that's why you're seeing that influx but our job is to do that for everybody. That's when we're going to create a a space that that much more many more people can flourish.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

And and for us to say that a city is truly flourishing it needs to be the city needs to be flourishing for every single person in the community. No question. The most underserved the most vulnerable members of the community you know um you know Martin Luther King speaks you know of the beloved community that is that each and every person is infinitely valuable and and that's that's how that's that's truly the measure of a truly flourishing community. So yeah and and the importance of a master plan right and and Madison has a very very um uh successful history of master plan uh dating right back to you know the City Beautiful movement when when a group of civic minded people had the foresight to to invite John Nolan to come here to do a master plan in 1910 and we enjoy the fruits of that of that master planning even today and in that tradition you know we've we've had the Capitol City uh the the Cap East District master plan which really laid out as a you know a vision for that we've had the master plan for um the um East Campus malled through and then there's speaking of the investment of the city there's the whole village on park story twenty years ago um it was the villager mall and it was uh uh a totally underutilized mall in the south side of Madison and the city of Madison decided to buy it and I still remember back then that the there were several members of the real estate community were just like the city has paid too much for it. Interesting but uh but it it takes the foresight of an entity like like City of Madison City can do this. They bought it and uh and there was a master plan for it. Created a master plan and um and it's one of my the proudest things I've done in my time was we were we we were part of creating that master plan for that whole site. But they took them all remodeled it and then master planned the rest of it for the uh outbuildings and created truly what would be um a center for the you know a town center for the South Sider Man. And over the last 20 years that's played out as you see today right and this is on Park Street with the Black Business Hub and Urban League.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

And um and um now with the uh center of black excellence there's a whole it became the catalyst for for the Renaissance Southside of Mass and uh but it all starts the master plan because the master plan the master plan creates the vision creates a a like a roadmap for the future and creates something that people can point to things will change but it creates that vision and it's really important planning master planning is is a very important part of creating a flourishing city for the future if you're enjoying today's conversation about seeking the good of the place where we live please take a quick second to rate and review this podcast in your favorite podcast app. Every review helps others discover these thoughtful and hope-filled conversations now let's return to Jason and Peter as they explore how thoughtful planning and listening to your neighbors can transform a city for generations Is there a common understanding of what we mean when we say flourishing like is this something we can measure?

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Does flourishing mean different things for different people groups within a city or is there kind of just a baseline this is what we at least want to see with flourishing the city's flourishing when it has the tree b the triple bottom line people planet profit so people it's a sustainable community planet it's a sustainable environment and profit is a sustainable economy.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

So that's that's sustainability and resilience in the in the broader sense that it takes all of that for the city to flourish now you take that triple bottom line and you combine it with um Vitrovius the Roman architect uh and he he he talked about the the the three tenets of great design firmness commodity and delight so firmness is that you it is durable commodity it functions well and delight it's enjoy it so you take those six things and bring them together that that'll be the sign of flourishing the flourish community of that no but that said it again it's only flourishing when every single person vulnerable underserved are also flourish.

SPEAKER_06 30:37

That's when it's I mean he's right um there are so many elements to flourishing and there are so many definitions. I would say there's every individual has their own thought of what flourishing is but if you have those six factors in the vast majority of people are going to feel like they're flourishing. And it gets back to what we just talked about. We need to be creating a city where everybody is flourishing. One I would love to add about the sort of South Park is the master planning was was unique because well not unique, but they did a tremendous amount of ensuring that the entire community was a part of that process and they continue to because I do think there's a real concern about gentrification, right? And what you know will some folks have been living there for a long time be priced out or it's no longer the community that they remember. Yeah. And I hope and I I believe and I hearing that there are a lot of steps are being taken to try to help mitigate some of that that effects, right, through land banking to the city and many other techniques that can happen. But I think that's it's very important that we engage deeply with the folks that are living in those communities to see what they want to see with that community. That's what we're trying to do with Envision Downtown Madison as well is to get as many people to be part of those conversations as possible to see what they want for the future of where they live.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

So if someone is listening to this podcast and they're like okay I hear that there are plans coming I have opinions about this how what are they looking for? How are they getting connected with this Envision Madison plan? Or even when the plan itself is not on the forefront of what's being communicated but um Madisonians still have ways that they want to continue to impact the development of the city. How are they looking to engage?

SPEAKER_06 32:23

Yeah it's easy uh to either go to our website downtownmadison.org there's a whole section right at the top or the city of Madison they're gonna they have significant uh ways to get into their system right and how they are able to connect with the greater community we also have a series of uh four or five more public events throughout the rest of this year where people can have their say right we're doing uh sh design charrettes we're getting people out to seed the space to try it on to surveys to complete um and to really ensure that we get as many folks as possible to be a part of the discussion with this plan the plan will be so much more rich if more people participate.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Sure. And I can imagine a skeptical voice coming into the room and saying well sure I can give my opinion but how much are they going to listen to the the common man if you will as opposed to I don't know private investments or something like that. How much do city voices factor in?

SPEAKER_06 33:19

They do they absolutely do. There's no question. And I understand um there can be let's call it reaction fatigue right where people are asked to fill out a survey to give their viewpoint and they feel like nothing happens after. Our goal is to take people's ideas. Some are good, some are bad. I mean I will just say that like some things we just can't do certain things based on resource allocation and like you can't we can't put 10 more lanes into John Nolan because I mean that just isn't practical right nor does anyone want to. I mean that's maybe that's but but my point is some things just can't happen. Our goal though is to create a plan that's implementable, that's actionable and then show the community how everyone, all of the parties are acting on that work. And so they see that their comments were heard and hopefully put to good use and in some instances will be put actually into the plan and guide the work that happens. And that's our our goal to actually say hey we heard you this is the work that we're going to do. I think we saw we we are seeing that in live time right now with the Madison Lake Way project. Significant outreach was taking place excellent work by our friends at Urban Assets in particular by Annette Miller and the team at Equity by Design who really reached out to the community to say what do you want to see? As a longtime board member of the private side of that organization, we are taking those folks viewpoints very seriously into account with the designs and what can happen moving forward to create better access for everybody on the lakes.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Absolutely I would encourage anyone uh to to really understand that your input is really really listened to your your input is really important uh because um uh it's um you're um every time I go to any of these events I mean you know there's the post-its there's all this stuff that you know the they are the tools that that uh are used to kind of bring bring your opinions out um so um so I I would I would definitely encourage uh everyone who's listening to this podcast to to show at these events because your your opinion is very very valuable.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

And Peter you took me to the first Envision Madison meeting and that was my first time seeing okay what how how does a sausage get made exactly and um it was cool because there were massive maps all over the walls of the isthmus in particular and we got little sticky notes and stickers and there were different questions at each map. Where do you spend your money? Where do you spend your time? Where do you look for art or leisure? What are frustrating parts of the city to you? And it was very approachable because I'm like I can handle a sticker. I can do that. So that that was actually a great experience to see oh this is how it can happen. Yeah that's great.

SPEAKER_06 36:17

Well brings up an interesting point. I mean when you're doing outreach and we are so lucky also to have Annette Miller and the team at Equity by Design helping with our community outreach you need to make the process as simple as you can for everybody. Yeah. And each person has their own style as to how they want to give you feedback. Some people like you know vocal people like me have no problem putting my hand up at a meeting but that's not for everybody. Things like the timing of the meeting matter. Like we ran our meeting at six that's not a great time for young families, right? I have a three year old that was I was my job but I wouldn't maybe show up to that meeting that removes a whole bunch of people from from the for their ability to speak. So you have to go at different times, you have to be at different places and use different mediums for folks to be able to give their feedback. I can mean a survey which is better for people maybe we go to a community festival and there's food. So you're you know having those conversations you might not even know you're giving feedback while having those conversations so you we our job is to reach out to as many people and as many ways as possible to get those everyone's voices heard. Because the traditional system of having a meeting after work at 530 to 730 works great for people that either don't work only work one job have the economic means you know have childcare all sorts of factors. That's not the majority of Madison's and so you need to make sure that you're doing everything you can to reach out to those folks uh and so they feel they have the ability to have their voice heard. And Peter's right their voice will be heard.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

Yeah so then tell me more about the idea of development I feel like some people can be hesitant about that right it sounds like development is the really strong way to meet the growth that is coming from Madison but development also means that things change people grieve the the change process sometimes um to your point Jason gentrification that word starts to come in as far as concern um Madison has a strong not in my backyard ethos um and there there are just a lot of beloved spaces where change in development feels really harsh. How do you think about development?

SPEAKER_01 38:30

So development one should always look at development as potentially a good thing because if you say that development will always be a bad thing you you're you've already lost before you even started. Development means change which means when there's a change there is an opportunity to right systemic wrong and so how that development happens is where the magic is because on the other hand if you say that development and changing the status quo is always a bad thing you're implying that the status quo is as good as it ever will be or if you're trying to kind of extol the virtues of some previous time uh you're assuming that things used to be better in the past but then we fail to recognize that again in the past the status quo there are systemic wrongs that can be addressed with development. So the the key then is to to have the development done in the correct way in a way that brings together the voices that people are listened to all the stakeholders are brought in the neighbors the older the uh regulatory folks the city of Madison the you know everything and people need to be heard and and then um then you come up with a solution I'm sorry. And um so definitely one one should always look as at development as potentially a positive it's just how you do it. You gotta do it the right way. One note about um uh one note about uh gentrification so gentrification is when you do such a good job with place making that the um that the community becomes so well designed and and real estate values go up to the point that the existing inhabitants get priced out. I mean that's essentially what gentrification is happening. Now it's not a good enough reason to not think about good pacemaking. Because that's a good thing, right? Now if I had if any of us had the silver bullet to solve gentrification uh we'd all be doing that. So I recognize that. But the way to solve at least get a starting point toward solving gentrification is um to um bring as build into the design as many uh levels of price points into the development and there are ways of doing that yeah like in like inclusion zoning and everything so um and it's a win-win when you do that right you bring in a diversity of points the the design very often then gets better because it's more diverse it's it's richer right and uh inexpensive does not necessarily mean uh not very good design but inexpensive um should also be well designed okay good design should not only be enjoyed by the well there's a saying that we use it strangely it's uh to use frugality as an aesthetic virtue frugality as an aesthetic virtue you're right jason he does of all the good phrases today he's just knocking them out oh he's winning this podcast one thing that I would add on is I think the community can make development significantly better.

SPEAKER_06 42:37

And I've heard this from developers too right when you truly get the neighborhood for instance to buy into that project and to try to improve it which can be at times an adversary relationship right um and it can be difficult. But I've seen a lot of projects get better with good community feedback right better for the community better designed for the community and the interaction with that building is going to have that place I should say is going to have with the community. And I Madison does a good job of ensuring that there are many a myriad of ways for the community to take part in that development. I also think that the city's done a good job of streamlining the process so that certain the codes can be written so that certain projects can happen and that the community's already had their say in it, which sort of speeds up the process, which is important. It is an important thing uh taking taking time on a project does add costs to project certainly but adding community input into projects can make them better. I mean I'm sure you have a myriad of examples where community input helped your design and has had a positive lasting effect on the projects that you've created.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Absolutely yeah because guess what the people who live in that community the people who live next to the site are the people who know most about that site.

SPEAKER_06 43:57

Yeah they're gonna interact with it every day. Yeah they know

SPEAKER_01 44:00

it well and and it's uh it's it only makes sense to kind of get them involved in the the the working of the uh and coming up with the solution of it and it's oh so satisfying I mean that I can tell you of so many uh stories of that uh some one uh one uh great memory I had was uh this project that I that we did for the um uh first United Methodist Church downtown on Wisconsin Avenue and I still remember the and it as you know it's right next to the uh the Mansion Hill neighborhood. Yes and I still remember the first neighborhood meeting we had and we we went in and we kind of it was a listening session. I mean you know before we even did any drawing you know we said okay we don't just list to you what are your concerns and everything but just the body language the people in the room it was like crossed arms no smiles you know and I was like wow okay but you know there but through the process of multiple neighborhood meetings and listening uh to do what they wanted to hear um and and people want to feel heard that's the most important thing you know and you can always say well thank you for that suggestion we'll take that in consideration we'll work on it and we'll come back and then the next meeting you say we we listen to you we tried this and even show them the sketches we tried this and then this is kind of where we are we brought together all the thoughts you know and some of the some of the uh constraints of the budget and the site and everything and and so yet they feel part of the process. And and I uh I'll never forget you know the final the final uh neighborhood meeting for that project they all the the neighborhood was there they stood up and they clapped and that was just like the most wow satisfying there's nothing more and and then when we went before the Urban Design Commission the the neighborhood folks are registered in support. So I think that is a way of doing it. It's a win-win and you end up like Jason said end up with a better project because um many different minds are better than just one.

SPEAKER_03 46:23

Yes yes well as we wrap up our conversation maybe a last question for each of you um can you share an area that has been uh a challenge or limitation to Madison's flourishing that you are feeling hopeful about um either how Madison is starting to address it or plans ahead um something that makes you feel hopeful that Madison will continue to lean into the flourishing for its citizens.

SPEAKER_06 46:48

We've seen some significantly positive and intentional work in housing, right? We have a lot of folks that are spending more on housing than they should be. We have affordability issues and affordability means something different to all 275,000 Madison But we're seeing a lot more intentional work to create more housing, which is part of it, right? It's a supply and demand game, but intentional different kinds of housing. And I think the city and the development community has done a good job of stepping up and we're starting to see the fruits of some of that success with rents sort of stabilizing and even potentially slightly decreasing which I think is very positive. So in the aggregate it looks like many of the policies and much of the work of the private community is successful.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

In terms of the affordable housing addressing affordable housing status um we need to look beyond just creating new affordable housing projects but address the existing housing style um there's a concept of naturally occurring affordable lower NOE one of the most efficient ways of providing um affordable housing is to take the existing uh housing stock and improve it and uh and very often it's actually the most efficient the most economical way of doing and the beauty of that too is it's integrated it's already automatically integrated into the urban fabric of space.

SPEAKER_05 48:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

You're not changing things as much right and um the city of Madison has several programs that do this. For example it's collaborated with the um sustained uh there's a program called Efficiency Navigator and the providing and it provides funding to to uh owners of um existing housing um to to improve to create energy improvements the the projects because it's it's it's it's a numbers thing I mean again speaking of uh a sustainable economy a sustainable community right um and a sustainable environment the most the most sustainable building is the one that already exists right and uh a sustainable economy is one where it's affordable it's for the long term the the the the the landlords are there for the long term and um but the numbers have to work so this is where the city comes in and there's grants available for owners of you know these uh small to medium sized units uh um through through the efficiency navigator um program that they have grants that are able to improve the life the the the the life of the uh the tenants by by these projects which which otherwise would not get done. Yes right and and the and because their grants because it's funding the rents stay at an affordable so so um these are things that we can do. It doesn't always have to be a really flashy big kind of project very often the the most successful things are the ones that are incremental and the ones that you work with what's you know the existing fabric.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Yeah that's wonderful that's where we'll close our conversation thank you both so much for not only being here for this conversation but being so invested in making our city really good and one that we dearly dearly love. So thank you both appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Thank you thanks for joining us for this rich conversation Jason and Peter reminded us that cities don't flourish by accident they flourish through intentional planning, courageous collaboration and a deep love for the people who call them home. To hear more conversations like this subscribe to the Upwards podcast in your favorite podcast app and visit slbf.org slash studio until next time keep looking upward and living with purpose go in peace