Caleb Goellner x Shannon Eric Denton

YA action readers, come hither! Caleb Goellner (TMNT x Naruto, Minnie Pouches in the Microrealm) and Kingdom Riders come together to talk shonen, friendship, and the meaning of ART.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, I'm Caleb Golner, writer of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Naruto, and the upcoming mini pouches in the micro realm from Top Shelf Productions and IDW.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

I'm joined by Hello, I'm Shannon Eric Denton. I'm the writer and co-creator of Kingdom Riders with my buddy Marcus Toe doing the fantastic illustrations. And I'm also the founder of Monster Forge Productions. Where did you come from? Where did you live growing up? Growing up, uh I took Texas with us every six months. My dad was military and so San Antonio, and we traveled from there. And so yeah, it was all over the place. And then uh uh left Santa Fe, New Mexico, drove to Florida because I didn't know how anything worked to break in. So I thought, I have a friend in Orlando and there's a Universal Studios there. Maybe I'll so after I drove like 36 hours and hadn't slept, I'm like, did what normal people do. I'm like, I should go to the comic shop. I haven't slept, but I'm just gonna go into a comic shop. I walked into the comic shop and the guy's like, I know you go into the convention. And I'm like, What's a convention? He's like, you know, down the street, the Orlando Convention Center, there's a comic convention. And I was like, Can you just go there? And he's like, Well, it's five dollars. I'm like, okay. Five dollars. So out of the $60 I had, there went five. And then, you know, headed over, went into the con, walked straight to the back, some um Michaels and Rob Liefeld, who I'd been trying to get jobs with for a long time, but they're like, hey, you're because basically they would send notes that say, please stop sending stuff. And then I would send more stuff right afterwards. And eventually they told me, they're like, You've worn us down. You are working so hard. You're hired. Can you start on Monday? And I didn't tell them I had just driven cross country to Orlando, where I didn't live. And then I told my buddy that was going to crash on his couch. Like, I have to drive to LA now. I'll see you later. So I took a nap and then drove through the weekend, made it to Los Angeles, and then started at Extreme Studios on that Monday. So that was kind of like my entry point into all of this. Pitch me Kingdom Riders, please. It's a high stakes race. We took everything that, you know, from American Idol and Survivor, and it's after this hundred-year war, um, it's it's a it's world not our own. And um there's since the war, there's a lot of indentured servants. People are trying to pay off debts. It's just it's catastrophe. There's aliens, there's monsters, there's all kinds of stuff. But um, amongst it all, um, one of our main character, her best friend, is supposed to be released from her indentured servitude. And they just, they, they go back on what they had planned and it enrages her. And so she decides to enter this race, not for herself, but because she wants to, you know, and it's just the regionals. So she's like, if I win the regionals, it's good for the the person that has this the indentured servitude against my friend. Um uh I'll I'll win and you release her, and then and then you get the you'll you'll get the spoils of that that win. Um and so it just starts out very selflessly, like she's going to do this, and she knows she's an amazing writer, but she's not nobility. Everybody that's in the races are nobility. She has to be sponsored by the noble to get in.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

That's just like racing though. Yeah. I mean, it's it's a lot of that. It's a lot of, you know, pay back for stopping as like a commoner, you know, like from a small village. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

I have a friend whose kids in the Formula One right now. Well, actually, two friends. One's building the cars and one's wants to drive them. But it's a lot of that's built on, you know, existing hierarchies that we've got. Uh Marcus and I are both big sports fans. So we channeled a lot of what we love about competition into this story about this woman just trying to rise out of the circumstances that they're born into. They were not born with, you know, all of the they did not have the silver spoon, you know. And so it's them trying to like win this race. And then as they win the race and it starts to, you know, as they win that first race and it starts to ripple, people are like, oh, maybe you could go for the gold, because on this world, whoever wins the final, and no one's ever won the final race, becomes the new emperor of the planet. And she sees they people around her start to see that there maybe there's a chance to change things. So yeah, it's just, it's really just sort of your standard hero's journey where I took all the standard out and then just kind of channeled in, channeled in some of what I would like to see in the world.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Well, they have to go back home at the end, you know, because I'm just kidding. Um yeah, like Mini Pouches is nothing like that. Um it it does share, like we our books have a lot in common, like spiritually. Yeah. And like the the the ethos of them is like kind of similar. Uh Mini Pouches is about uh this little girl. She's like, you know, middle grade age, similar to the reader. Her parents make her work for them. Yeah, she's like their social media video maker. So uh she is built like the Hulk. She's super strong and super durable, but she doesn't really know that. Yeah, like she's aware of it, but she doesn't know she uh is like special in that way necessarily. She just thinks she's big for a raid or something. And finally, uh she's been depressed because all of her pets have gone missing, like magician's nephew style. Um she finds out, you know, her parents like they stress her out too much, they ask too much, she's working too much for them, she's behind on her homework. She finally, like, you know, she's the parents, you know, like she's had enough. She kind of freaks out on them and goes home. She throws a tantrum, she smashes their lab. And she's mature enough to go, I should not smash labs. I should not be doing this. This is not a healthy way to process my feelings. But just when she's about to go back and get her parents and save them, uh, she uh realizes that they have like this secret map of all these different places in this multiverse that they travel to make travel log videos, and they're all named after her missing pets. Hmm, curious. So she starts off on this quest to try to save all of her pets, and uh along the way, she just gets matter and matter at her parents who uh have become kidnapped by the resident of one of the worlds that they're currently traveling in because their daughter's not around to protect them and scare off predators. So yeah, it's really um the book's about you know how cool and mature kids actually are and how strong they are, and uh it's a reminder to parents to like foster that and cultivate that, which is weird because like um I wasn't a dad, I wasn't even close like when I wrote this thing. A year later, you know, my wife and I like knew we were having our daughter um after I was done writing it. Yeah, and so it was weird. I I feel like uh I might have manifested like our daughter just in like working on this book, and now she's super strong and like smashing our house and and a total handful and like super fun. So uh all I have to do is not like make her make YouTube videos for me. I'm like a better parent than you know, the kind of the semi-villains and mini pouches.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

And how great for you that as you start to doubt your own words later on in the parenting journey, you have your your manual to go back and read to kind of keep you on point. I don't trust the kids.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

My daughter, she's like not quite too, and she's she's talking a lot, yeah. And she seems to understand more than I want her to sometimes. And she was like, She came over, I was working. Usually I'm not working on my desk and playing with her and and stuff, but she saw me on my computer and she goes, like, Daddy's working. I was like, Yeah, I'm I'm working on comics. And she goes, Daddy's working on comics. I was like, Oh no, what have I done? She's gonna dig up all this stuff and be like, what was all this stuff about heroism? Yeah, you know, like you complain when you gotta take me to three soccer practices, dude. Come on, chop chop, dad. I'm like, oh I read your book, and the one thing that we have in common the most between Kingdom Riders and Mini Pouches, they're kind of about a girl with an animal buddy or many animal buddies. What inspired you to make Kingdom Riders and like what took you to like the finish line with it? Like what kept you super motivated to tell the story you wanted to tell?

SPEAKER_02 8:41

A Marcus, I wanted to work on on a project with Marcus. I've known Marcus since I hired him at Wild Storm and he did stuff with me. I just he's a fantastic talent and he's a friend. So I was like, I need to come up with something. And this was an idea that I'd had since childhood. And so when I was trying to figure out what would what I would want to see Marcus draw, it was this. So um, and with the main character, I really wanted to like test my writing chops because I've met people in my life who just when you meet them, your life is better. And when you see them meet somebody else, their life is better. And somehow they're not the person who changes in the story. They change everybody around them. And that's what I wanted to do with Kayla. I wanted her to be this driving force in a very unfair world and see her make the world better. Cause I think the world could use a little of that right now. And so um, this one was a lot of fun. It's it's always, you were talking about your artist, like Marcus draws too well. I don't want, I wouldn't want to turn into that because I'm like, that's hard. It's like there's a reason why I was like, all right, this is perfect for Marcus, because I was able to kind of just tell him the things that I, you know, I wanted this character to be a certain look like this, or I'm looking for something in this, you know, this analogy. Um, and he'd do a couple of sketches. I'm like, all right, that's the one. And then we'd move on. And so when by the time we started on the book after doing the pitch deck to get the book set up, there were no notes. Right. Again, it's that thing where you're like, I should probably give notes, but every time it came in, I was like, Oh, that's so much better than I could have imagined it.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Sometimes like being unburdened from the note giving is like in an earnest, genuine, and thoughtful way, is like the greatest thing that can happen. Uh it's it's it's like uh, I don't know, it's like the light bulb going off when you feel inspired. It's it's almost divine. Yeah. You know, it like makes you believe like uh in like advanced cosmology and theology. You're just like, wow, things can be good, yeah, amazing. But I liked what you said about um someone changing all the other characters. It's it's very shown in manga, like, and and shojo as well. But like, you know, it's like Goku, everybody who fights becomes his homie, you know. Uh that that's sort of something I I love. That's a theme I love. Um, like Jojo's Bizarre Adventures. Sometimes the opposite of that is like everyone they meet is cursed. Uh so in Kingdom Riders, it was funny, like this, like not quite cynical, but maybe I was looking for more formula. And I was like, I wasn't expecting it because like I'm not gonna put formula on you, but I was like, okay, when's she gonna like when's this gonna happen? When's this bad thing gonna happen? When's this like reveal? When's this? And no, it was just like a very nice surprise all the way through. I was like, I'm in a good mood now. Well, thanks. That's uh I don't want to spoil the ending. Yeah, you'll be happy when you meet Kingdom Writers.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

And I wanted to rate this because I know like when we started off, there's like having done a lot of middle grade, especially animation where everything's focus groups for ages, six to seven, and this to that, and this. And people were asking me about writing for kids' books, and I'm like, well, I read Dune when I was a kid. So, like, you know, like to me, that was a kid's book. I was a terminator when I was like six years old. I was like, There's a lot of I think intelligence that kids have that we don't always give them credit for. We forget. We're adults, we absolutely forget. Especially when we're parents and you're like, I gotta, you know, I don't want them to turn out like me. I gotta protect that's my core move in the world. Like, don't you're not like me, are you? I think it's almost every parent. But yeah, with with this, it was really just sort of embracing that like positivity. The the I mean, there's indentured servants and like a whole bunch of horrible stuff in this world, but Kayla is not that. She she is the driving force that somehow has figured out the, you know, she she's gonna make your life better, getting to know her. And I think that there's Superman's a character like that. I know a lot of people don't like to write. I love writing Superman because I I I've met people like that. And so for me, it's like, oh, I want to share that person that I know with these, with everybody that's never met someone like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

So some people are like just a straight up light.

unknown 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

And uh, you know, they're still human, of course, but that's what makes them even more special. Yes. It's like, why are you so happy? Yeah. Like, what's what's wrong with this? Many, I wanted to do something similar. Yeah. Uh I've got sort of a situation where the main character is a little girl who's been sort of put upon fairy tale style, um, not by like a wicked stepmother or like evil stepsisters or something, but instead it's like her uh like super science influencer parents, yeah. Who like are like the bad, evil YouTube parents. I'm talking to you, evil YouTube parents, who monetize your children on YouTube? On YouTube, YouTube.com. Uh watch the trailer for mini pouches in the micro realm on YouTube right now. Thank you. Um, but yeah, like I was like, oh, cool. I I've got this perfect sort of like fairy tale-inspired way to uh insert sort of my like commentary and feelings about some of the wrongdoing I see to children in the world through this character who's strong enough and good enough to face it and uh have fun doing it um in the book. So I uh it's nice uh that we have those kinds of stories that are aligned at this point.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

I think all of us start off with like some world building, and then as you get into the world, you're like, oh, I forgot about like you start to realize like maybe I that you have to like thread those. Did you come in to any of that right in yours where you ended up with something better?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, you yeah. So Minnie Pouch's my original pitch was I'm like, Polly Pocket and Mighty Max have a kid, and she's like cable, and like so on my early sketchy, she has like these like future laser cannons that are the size of like a semi-truck. And you worked with Rob Liefeld, so you know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

I love me some cable.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Oh so yeah, and but I didn't have like a real direction, and so my story was more like she'll go to this bad place and like the monster will like kidnap her parents, she's gotta say, like you know what I mean. Like, I wanted to do something, I didn't put in any of like the Caleb sauce into it, you know. Like, I and you have to do that to make it good. And so fortunately, a bunch of time passed, and I found the right hook so that you could have the things that you need to have to tell a story with push and pull, you know, like you have a fuller character, you've got stakes, you've got you got the stuff that keeps you turning the page. Like if you're a reader, you want to know what happens and you want to see like um, you know, how the character may or may not change, and and all that screenwriting stuff we were just making fun of. Yeah. Uh, but like I that like naturally fell into place just because like I grew and changed and my life changed as a person. And I would say now, like, if you if I were to have to give advice to anybody who wanted to like tell their own stories, be like you have to be in it. Yeah. Like, at least like that's what's been working for me, like this past bit. I used to just try to like do the math. Yeah. And you can get by with doing that for a while. Um, but like your real ideas and your real inspiration and the stuff that's gonna stay with readers, it's like truly creative, is the stuff that like is on your mind that you're thinking about maybe it's your subconscious and it's not like what you're actively like, you know, kind of pursuing or taking on. But that needs to be in the work and you need to find a way to make it not just in the background, but like front and center. Yeah, 100%. That's the way that like you get to make something new is by just being yourself. Um, it sounds like a cliche or a trite or whatever, but like if you you have to like find a way, even if you're anxious and depressed and have ADHD, like most co-creators might sometimes, um, myself included. And like you just have to find a way to be able to like read that newspaper in the morning and something comes out of you that night, yeah. You know, um, from like how you're processing the world that you live in and the relationships you have. Um, and that's like that's on what art is. Yeah. It's people define art all kinds of ways, but like really it's communicating like a truth of existence.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

And I think your individual lens, to your point, is what I I can give 10 writing students the same prompt and they will come back with different versions of the exact same idea because they're if they're doing it right, it's they're putting themselves in there, and I'm getting to know them through this journey. Um, and I think what you said with appreciatings, I mean, I'm these bookshelves. Yeah people see bookshelves. These were designed by somebody. Somebody at IKEA was sitting down in their sketchbook, going, What do you think, boss? You know, and when you start to walk around and you're like, you know, the landscaping here, somebody took time to, you know, somebody either just chopped it or somebody arranged this bush to look so nice, you know, water fountain. I mean, just whatever it is, when you start to like walk around the world and see the creation all around you, it starts to seep into your work a lot easier. Oh, yeah. But you have to kind of open yourself up to that.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

That's yeah, that's hard, like, especially when you are a storyteller, because like there's maybe this impression that you have to be pretty insular and you're always like thinking about your story and blah, blah, blah. Grant Morrison said something, um, something about creativity a long time ago that was kind of like what we've been talking about. And it really stuck with me. It's like ideas come from everywhere, like the newspaper, like what's going on in your life. And you do, it takes, I think, in our like, you know, phone-addicted world, like I'm surprised mine hasn't gone off during this podcast. Like some group text, hey, there's a new like Muppets thing at Disney, or what you know, whatever. Um, you do need to like shut off you. Like, I think a lot of us creatives or you know, however we want to refer to ourselves, a little neuroses, yeah, a little like a little bit of uh um as existential like dread all the time. And you gotta like be able to find some peace to process um your own thoughts. And um, by opening yourself up to your environment, sometimes that's the only vulnerability you need. You don't always have to be vulnerable with yourself if you can be uh vulnerable in terms of opening yourself to the world a bit.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

You're sharing it for your for yourself and helping like-minded people react to it.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, or or enemies. Yeah. I mean, I I hope I get some angry letters from some evil YouTuber parents when Minnie Pouches comes out. I'm just like, cool, sweet, don't send them my way. I think there's always letters. Oh yeah. I I only got I was expecting, so like this was a really big book for me. Uh Turtles Naruto was like the biggest thing I'd ever done, like the the best-selling thing I'd ever worked on. And uh I only got one hate mail. Working on uh TMNT Naruto was I had worked on IP before, I'd worked, you know, Sonic the Hedgehog, and I'd worked on Turtles quite a bit, different versions over the years. Um, and I'd worked on like Power Rangers and some other things. And so I was used to uh notes and maybe having to reference a bunch of like you know, brand guidelines, and um occasionally like you talk to people who worked in licensing who actually struck the deals on the back end and and all kinds of stuff. So it can be a web of people and a web of um valid concerns for like the integrity of the characters and stuff because it's a big deal, yeah. Um, or can be a huge deal, and sometimes there's you know merchandise tied up in it and all kinds of things, and so I try to uh just be an active listener. Like I'm fortunate that I like worked in tech and a bunch of other spots in different markets and had like job interviews like pick one, you know, in San Francisco. And so I kind of like it became easier to speak with people in publishing and and sort of address their concerns, not just as a writer, but as like something of like a stakeholder and how this all turns out. Um, you know, at the end of the day, a lot of these collabs that are really popular that people enjoy, if they get a story component, sometimes it's just straight to merchandise, which can be super fun. But you know, if there's a story component, that's a whole different situation. It's not just like design approvals and stuff like that, which are also complicated. Um so yeah, there's a lot of conversations, and you speak to people. People up and down like the ladder. Uh spoke with people, of course, at IDW. Yeah. Uh had my awesome editorial team here. We talked to Shweisha. We talked to TV Tokyo. Yeah. You know, everybody who touched Naruto, uh Kishimoto Sensei's editor. Um, and most of the conversations were just like, are you sane? Do you love Naruto? Are you professional? Like, do you know how to act like an adult? Like in this conversation. And fortunately, I fooled them all. Yeah. And the book is out. What about you? Like, you've you worked at like the biggest. We like we're pretty lucky that we got to have this convo because like you've worked at a ton of huge brands in different capacities, too, even. And I've like been lucky and I've gotten to work at like some some major brands and stuff. Um how long did it take you to sort of like stop being that guy who is having fun at extreme where you could walk into a meeting with a bunch of scary people who own like the world's most valuable IP and just be like, it's gonna be okay, guys.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Yeah. I think you when you use the word stakeholder, because at the point you're a professional and you were entrusted with something, because what is Ninja Turtles? Is it the 2002 show I worked on, or is it the one my buddies Mike Chang and Cyril O'Neal did in the, you know, at Nickelodeon? Is it the Paramount stuff that's going on? Is it Kevin's original comics? Is it the 80s cartoon? Is it the Michael Bay movies? It's like, it's all of it. And it can be all of it. And I think that that at the point that you are brought on as a professional, your job is to bring as much of the fan stuff that you want to do as a creative in there up to the point that you're not going against what the current regime's mandate is for like this is the current version, this is what we're building, and delivering the best version of that for them, but also for the part of you that's a fan that reflects all the other fans, you know. And so it's it's a constant juggling act, but I think that's where the being a pro comes in, where you got to kind of go, all right, this is what we're doing. I'm gonna give you the best version of the thing you want, pushing it as far as I can. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

You're always you're always like it's it's like uh you're running sound at a venue where like it can't go over this many decibels the whole time. Yeah, it's like can't it though?

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Yeah. Hoping no one notices. But there's a freedom in that too, because I've worked on Marvel Spider-Man stuff on two different shows for two different age ranges while friends are making the comics and while Dan Slot's a consultant for us from the comic, while he's writing the comic for the animation, while they're making the live-action movies. It can be all those things.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you uh sometimes you have to like become this nexus in a multiverse of interests. Yeah. You know, like not even uh, you know, like cringe, like business interests, just practical ones. Yeah. Um, you're you don't want to break Spider-Man for like everybody, you know, you don't want to break the turtles. Like my worst nightmare working on this book was just like breaking it all. Yeah. You know, like making the turtles not feel right, making Naruto not feel right, making them not feel right together. But I just relaxed. I was like, I'm just gonna do my best. And like I've got the top, you know, I got everybody holding the keys to all this stuff is approving it. So at a certain point, you just get to trust yourself. And um, being able to trust yourself is like one of the healthiest things you can do. Yeah. Um, because like that's the key to like having an identity, period. So hope it's not all too cosmic or you know, heady or or you know, new age sounding.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

No, no, the trust is huge because that's you know, uh, if they want to make a nanotech Spider-Man suit, which I've done, or a cloth spoo Spider-Man suit, which I've done. Those are changes. Yeah, if you get away from with great power comes great responsibility, you're breaking Spider-Man, and that's when I'll push back. So as a pro, yeah, you'll take a lot of the notes, but then you have to know which ones are like, no, no, we're not doing this.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

What if we had Batman kill a guy? That really is the key stuff. That's the meat and potatoes of understanding character and understanding fans, and um, everything else is kind of like additive joy. Yeah, you know. Like I get to write characters having pizza together. Like that's pretty special. That's that's a good night out for anyone. Oh, yeah. You've been a writer and artist, and you've done all kinds of other work across multimedia, let's say, film, animation, TV. Uh what comes if you could separate yourself from like the realities of time and economics and all the things, would you want to make all of your books from scratch yourself? Or does the magic come from collaboration?

SPEAKER_02 26:57

100% from collaboration is why I do this and not write just novels, because that's very much a solo thing, you and your editor, and I really enjoy people surprising me in good ways. And as you get a little experience in gray hair, that's when you can start figuring out which of those collaborations are going to add that magic sauce to make the collaboration even more fun.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

For me, I'm not a good artist, but I try. And so when I was trying to break into comics, I didn't have a lot of confidence in myself as a writer. I'd been a blogger, I had like covered comics news, I'd done a lot of interviews, I'd met a lot of people in the industry, I had friends at publishers, but I didn't think I could just like, can I write Spider-Man now? Hey, what's up? You want to give me Deadpool? And so I drew several of my own books because that's I kind of I was in my 20s, and I was like, oh yeah, I used to just do that all the time. I used to just draw comics and make them myself, and so I did a bit of that. Um, and finally I was just like, oh, I need to work with other artists, and that opened up not only like what I thought I could do as a writer, um, but also did make me want to draw more for a while. And I even uh drew a book that a friend of mine who worked in comics wrote. So I totally get the collaboration vibe. I think that's it is the magic. And um, it's like weirdly like a humanist experience that you have when you work on this material or really anything else where you have to collaborate with other people. You're just like, oh, I feel like I'm a part of a community, like I have friends. Like I have a social life. Um, it really unlocks a lot of stuff that I think uh, for lack of a better term, like creative people, people who might want to write even novels. You still need that uh to make your work better, I think. That's me personally.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

No, no, I think, and you brought it up when you were talking about being, you know, younger and making your own books, and it's very much a solo effort, just the way kind of all of us in our individual lane with whatever part of the comic we're making, you have to kind of step back and be a solo act for a bit. But the fandom, I think, drives a lot of us pursuing this. So where did that, where did that start with you? Where was the beginning of like, oh, I I I'm I'm going from like just enjoying this thing to suddenly realizing people make that thing and maybe I could be one of those people.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

When I was a kid, I thought a comic book publisher, and to my credit, like back in the day they kind of were. I thought it was a big building with a logo on it, and like everybody sat at a desk and like passed like the paper for like from left to right. And what's weird is like in the timely days and some of that, like that's sort of what was happening. Yeah, a lot of like uh old school comics, like pre to war to post-war were sort of made in this like assembly line fashion, and the stories about that are really interesting. But I thought it was really clean cut, and I thought it was the same way. Like when I was watching shows on Nickelodeon, there was this Nickelodeon headquarters in Florida, and like magical shows appeared out of it, and everybody like put on a tie and worked together and had a lunchbox. Um then I started going to conventions, I think it was in about fifth grade, and I I had other weird like assumptions about comics up until that point, too. I remember in third grade, uh, there was like there was an ad for like fruit snacks or something in comic books, and it had some like Jim Lee X-Men art or something, and it said art by Jim Lee. And I was reading comics with a friend, and I was just like, so Jim Lee's like our age, right? He just says like rich parents who buy the nice markers, or like I had I had no idea. I was such like a clueless little comic book fan. Um but once I kind of had a handle on like uh I was like, oh, like most of these writers and stuff and artists, they're older than I thought they were. Uh they're not like 20, most of them, you know, like they're like, oh, like they have like careers and they've been doing this a while, and they have and I knew Stan Lee was like an old guy, you know, because I'd seen him and like that old how to draw Marvel style like VHS that they had. Um, but as soon as I knew it was a collaborative medium and there was a bunch of people working on it, uh it almost felt like it was harder. And I was like, oh, so I have to like move to New York, because back then the big two were both posted up there. And I was like, okay, I guess I gotta move to New York and I gotta do all these things. And it kind of intimidated me so much that I let go of wanting to be a comic book creator until I was about like 25. I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna be a rock star. I'm gonna do something easier, like become a rock star. Um, but yeah, once I knew that it was like, oh, you just like hang out with your friends at comic conventions and like you talk about the things you love and then you agree to work together. Like that that's when it became more exciting to me than ever. How about you?

SPEAKER_02 32:23

I was just thinking what a gift it was that because I started when Image started right after the You were an Extreme Studios. Extreme Studios. So, you know, yeah. Yeah, we headed out to I headed out to LA, you know, Southern California, and um we were all in a bullpen and we just thought, oh, this is what every comic book company is like. You sit across from your fellow artists and writers, you're laughing all day, you're making books together, you're concentrating on what you got to get done. And we didn't realize that Rob and Jim and all the founders were trying to recreate what they had wanted. And I went into animation shortly thereafter, what was very similar still. It was pre everybody working on computers. So the lights were on, you know, it was very bright. Nobody had headphones, everybody was having the radio wars where you're slowly throughout the day turning up your jams, and then the guy in the office next to you was turning his up, and then eventually the production people come around and be like, you guys cut it out. So the the collaboration part of it was just instilled in my DNA that, oh my gosh, this is this is everything I dreamed of. This is the this is fun, and I'm getting paid to do it. Yeah. And so since then, I've just chased that with every project I'm on. I'm like, how do I what's the team that's gonna make this fun? Who are the people that are gonna make this enjoyable? Because you're kind of going into a relationship at that point. Sometimes, you know, it's a three-month relationship, sometimes it's a year. Some for some people it's ongoing for the rest of their careers. But, you know, I try and make sure that that's in the DNA of whatever it is I'm creating.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

There's times, especially since comics is so international now. Yeah. Um, in a like a good way. Like I love all the people I get to meet who live in different parts of South America and Europe and Japan and really all over. And um it can sort of just be like it feels like COVID or something. Like you might not even get on Zoom. You're like, we're making this comic on email, you know? Yeah. Sometimes that works and it's totally fine. Um, but other times, like you kind of forget you could just get on the phone with somebody, like, or even text, or like um, depending on how much you want to travel that year, how much you know you got going on, like conventions are amazing. Yeah, I've made most of my most of the people who I like am connected with on social media are people I've actually met at New York Comic Con or Emerald City or um every other show, like regional stuff, smaller shows, Planet Comic-Con in Kansas City. Um, and it's really special because you know, like you'll go years without seeing people. Yeah. And then next thing you know, like this this like person you met who lives in London, who you see you only see at New York Comic-Con. Yeah. And it's been three years, and you just pick right back up. You don't even remember what you talked about last time you saw them, but it's just like, oh, well, like I saw like pictures of your kids on Instagram. So like it's it's very natural and cool. And um, it makes you more motivated too when you do start collaborating with these kinds of people. Like you want to give them like your absolute best because you have a ton of respect for them as people, and you have a ton of respect for them as like comic book professionals and creators.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

And I do think that something you just tapped into uh that it's I've realized uh we're kind of blessed because I don't think most people get that is the intense friendships you have with people that you actually only hang out with once or twice a year. But there's this shorthand, I think, for all of us that pursued this as a career of all of us are the person that everybody's like, that's not a real job. And then when you do it, everybody's like, I always believed in you and I knew you could do it. I'm like, this is not what you said when I packed up my car with $60 and headed to LA, you know, from the East Coast. But, you know, I think that that is something uh really remarkable about the community that we're in.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

There's a bunch of uh not journeymen, journey people. Yeah. You know, like, yeah, it's uh kind of so many people you have you can relate to each other because there is that skin of your teeth, like ambitious, like there is no real path that there's no road that's already been paved that you can just like hop on and and go. Um, it's not like you know, and like we've both had day jobs doing various things too, yeah, and like different aspects of our careers other than creating comics. But you know, so many places you go to work, it's like, oh, hello, you got these two degrees and an MBA and whatever, and your parents paid for it all. Uh wink. Um, and now you're here at this company and you're making decisions and and yada yada yada. And for so many people in comics, it's like, do you know how we got here? How did we how did we it's like you have to just constantly be um out and like chatting and or you know, like online if if you live far away from other folks on the rug. But yeah, it's uh there's that shared experience of just like how, how, why? Yeah, yeah, did we do it? We're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Cool, hooray. It's really cool too that you when you get that experience or collaboration or friendship that comes out of uh, you know, there's the people that are in your peer group that you're kind of all entering the professional space at the same time. And then when you get to meet people who maybe inspired you to get into the business and then they become peers, yeah, and how empowering that is.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

That's really the power not only of just working on comics, but being a fan of them. And, you know, like it connects you to so many different kinds of people. Um, I know like, you know, nothing's perfect, and like there's sometimes there's silos, and um, you know, sometimes people are gatekeepers and all that kind of stuff. There's a little bit of stink on on everything that you try to approach with like an earnest heart. Yeah. But by and large, you go to a show, people just want to talk about the things they like and they want opinions too. Like they want to go a little deeper. Um, like we were talking before we started this podcast. I'm like, don't tell anybody I said that, you know, like, but this is what I think about X and Y. And you're like, yeah, I know. Um, so it's it's like a real friendship machine.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

It is. And you were talking about the gatekeeping, and that was one of the things that I I didn't really run into early in my career, and I'm so thankful. And I've gotten to thank most of those, you know, gentlemen and gentle ladies that were the ones that didn't gatekeep and just said, Oh, you're a pro, welcome to the club. And then it was just immediately like, you're buying the first round, you know, and it was just that was it was like the great leveler. And I found that the ones that you should be hanging out with, the ones that are the legends, generally are that way. Yeah. You know, they well, they figured out early on.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

They're like fearless people, usually. And part of that I think is just being like making art, being an artist is like you have to be a bit brave sometimes, especially depending on what kind of story you're trying to tell and if your aspects of your identity are in it. Like we have so much progress in the world to thank from art. And like when I was, when I kind of like decided, you know, because you have to decide in life to do things. A friend of mine said that a couple years ago. It's like, you know, when you've truly made a decision, not just like kind of I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking about that. Once I started talking about myself as if I were somebody who made comics, once I'd like published a book and like tabled a show myself, everybody talked to me like I was a peer. Yeah. Who was like in my, you know, in my like circle. And so I was living in Kansas City. There were a ton of like awesome comic creators there. You'd go to their house, they'd invite you, they'd have people over, you go to a party. And I'm some like clueless, kind of just like happy to be there, like kid. And I'm talking to people who are doing big two books like regularly, and like they're just being cool. And they're if you have questions, they would answer them. I moved to Portland, it was the same thing. Everybody there, when they found out that I just like really cared and wanted to work hard, instant, like first name basis, you know, not like we call people like hello, Mr. Miss Comic Creator person, you know, but um all these walls came down and I just like ran into so much positivity and encouragement. I think part of it was because I was drawing. I think that helped like and I I knew a little, I knew enough not to like what pen do you use? Them, you know, like ask them like something. But of course, like once you're in the soup though, you do ask what pen do you really want to know, like hey, these microns keep breaking. What what else we got? You know, people give you some cool tips, like, oh, this thing from like Sweden, it'll work. Okay. Um, so yeah, it's uh it's nice to know you had this arc where you started communally and you're continuing to pursue that. Um that all said, like since you've worked in so many aspects and so many like layers of creativity on everything that you've done, where do you prefer to sit on those like spaceships of production? Like where like if you had to pick, like where do you like to be the most at this stage in the your career?

SPEAKER_02 41:56

This is where I channel my ADHD and I've learned to just like when the mood hits the shift into something else, I just embrace it. Yeah. And then I'm a hundred percent on that thing, in that zone, cranking. And then when I hit the wall, instead of going like, oh, what's wrong with me? I hit a wall. I'm like, I'm on to the next journey. And then sometimes I'll come back on and I, you know, in the back of I this is where you know, uh experience kind of comes in, and you you I now I've I can make that all work within the deadlines, but I generally just let my enthusiasm for where I'm at that day in that moment sort of drive me. You know, and sometimes it's derailing the thing that I should be working on for an hour, but I know I got to get that out of my system. And then when I come back to the other thing, I'm ready for it.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

So that's a kind of uh optimism though. That's like a like that's like adaptability through optimism that's very mentally healthy.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

It well, and I think that going back to those mentors, I mean, I know you've got the Ninja Turtles. So Kevin Eastman was very kind to me when I very first moved to California. And his whole thing was like, don't be, don't be like, there's, don't be, there's no fear. Just just jump in. And I think you were kind of, you know, talking about that. Because he's like, there is no right way. Every single one of us have a different path. We have a different story of how we got here. Even within their own journey, he's like, you know, I don't you think I would have created like 20 more billion dollar franchises if that path was something you can replicate over and over and over again. And it's not, you got to kind of be in the moment. So I think that kind of freed me up to just be like, oh yeah, I need to just have fun with this. And maybe I'll look back two days from now and be like, I could have done that better, but I'm not gonna kill myself or be upset in the moment that it's not, you know, there's other people on the internet for that now.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

If I were 18 right now, I don't know what I would think, especially with all the technology stuff going on. I don't even want to say the two letter acronym uh that shall not be said out loud. But you know, like we're See, we've seen like this commodification of what people think of as art. I don't think it's truly the commodification of art because that's not what art is to me. Yeah. And it shouldn't be to you. That's the one that's getting used on social. They'll be our thumbnail for this entire episode. Ugliest space I've ever made. But yeah, like I don't know if I would feel as hopeful. Um I think one advantage I had uh in one sort of like automatic sort of like sense of optimism that I could latch on to. When I started covering comics and sort of working in the industry as a blogger, the only reason I got a job is because Iron Man came out a year after I graduated from college. And so I was writing for MTV and all these places because they needed a comic book nerd who like knew what does this all mean? What's with this explosion of like, and then you know, like now that I'm older, like I'm very I'm like you could be cynical about all that and be like, it's called IP. Yeah, this is all done, it's a storyboard, it's magical. Just make the book, you know, like just make this like awesome thing. Of course, like it's gonna work. Like, because you actually are a fan of comics and you know they're awesome. Um, but that really gave me the confidence, and like, you know, there was like a boom. There was smaller publishers seemed to like be putting out a ton of books, a lot of new creators were on the scene, web comics were blowing up everywhere. And because it was my job at the time early on to cover all these like deals, all these options and all these things. I felt like all you needed to do was show up and you would get a comic song. Like if you just finished it and you tried, like I was I was naive, of course, because like, but I I really felt that way for a long time. And so I had like that drive. I was like, okay, I just need to get this book done with some really good artists, and I'll show up and like it'll get approved, and like, you know, like it'll get made into a movie and a TV show and an action figure line, and I can retire like at 30. Um, that didn't happen. Uh, but you know, like you have all these almost that keep encouraging you along the way. And that's that doesn't have to be your your dream. It wasn't necessarily actually my dream at the time. My goal was just to like have books out that I don't have to pay to publish anymore. Yeah. It was pretty I thought it was a pretty reasonable goal. And that's still like really like what I'm working at. Yeah. It's like I want to just keep making awesome stuff that I'm proud of with cool people, um, that people have fun reading, and I just want to keep going. You just like keep keep walking the uh the comic creator path, you know?

SPEAKER_02 46:52

Yeah, the uh I I think it's interesting too. You've got your your two books that are, you know, IDW books that are very one's an IP that everybody knows, one's you inventing your own IP. How do you basically give advice to younger people who are because I think a lot of people assume that like you're when you get into this business, you're just gonna want to work on the Star Wars. And I do want to work on the Star Wars. I like working on the Star Wars, but I also really love making my own stuff. And do you find like there's a a balance to that? Do you approach it differently?

SPEAKER_00 47:25

You know, like I want to do it all because I think it just I get better at writing the more I write. Yeah. So like the more I can do, the better in that sense. Um, this was a dream. I was absolutely terrified to be, I think, the first, maybe Western writer to write like a Naruto thing. There's probably some people in localization, of course, the dubs and stuff, and maybe some of the video games and different editors. So I don't know if like I'm actually the first, but I think I'm the first person to like write a Naruto story in comic form, yeah, you know, outside of Japan. Um, so that was like definitely like a dream come true. An absolute dream come true. Like, this is my Spider-Man, this is my Batman, this is my, you know, whatever like your favorite comic thing is. Like, I did it. Yeah. You know, like if I got to write something else after this that was like a more uh comic-specific IP and like a Western market, like I'd be excited to try. You know, I'm always open to that kind of stuff. But there's really nothing like making your own book. So uh mini pouches in the micro realm on sale June 23rd, everywhere comics are sold, with artist Eric Lead. Or Lied, Eric Lyde. He's a leader. That's why I keep wanting to call him. I even like I sent him a message before this. I was like, How do you pronounce your last name? Is it Lead or Lyde? He's like, it's Lied. Keep saying Lead.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

No, it's I I have a friend who waited 25 years to tell me. He's like, you know, everybody's been, I just didn't want to correct anybody, but everybody's been pronouncing my name wrong in comics for 25 years. I'm like, then you know, you could have maybe after the second beer 24 years ago, you could have.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

I mean, yeah, it happens. But uh yeah, mini pouches in the micro realm, uh, with uh Eric Leed Lied. Ah, I keep doing that. I got to pitch that idea. I had been thinking about making that book on my own since 2013. Yeah. And I started drawing it. And I drew a couple pages and I did a bunch of sketches, and uh, it almost got to a different publisher, it didn't happen. Um, some stuff changed in the world and the industry. And I was like, okay, just put that in my file of like my 300 books that I want to like write and draw when I get around to it. And um eventually I got the chance. Uh, here at IDW, my um editor Riley Farmer, she knew the perfect artist. Yeah, she said, What about Eric? And I looked at Eric's art. Uh, he had done some other awesome books, uh Dragonforged, and he's got like an amazing webcomic. And I don't know if this has happened to you, but I was like, this is like my wish self as an artist. This is how I wish I could draw. Like, literally, I'd worked with other artists who are like, Yeah, of course, I wish I could draw like them. But Eric, he is probably the first artist whose stuff I ever looked at and was like, I I this is me if a genie, like, you know, granted my wish that I could draw a lot better, you know. And so it's amazing getting to do your own book kind of your way with the support of an editor who gets you, yeah. And with an artist who you have just like a phenomenal shorthand with, you don't have to explain too much. Like, you might have like a link or two in your whole script or something, and it's like, I know what you I know what this is, I know what you're trying to do. And like, you know, you have some conversations and the book comes back and it's just like wow, you know, it's it's like truly, I don't know how many times like you worry that you're saying no notes too many times. Yeah, yeah. No, it's I I was like, uh I think I had like two notes the whole time, and it wasn't it, they weren't even like redraws, they weren't anything. It was like, can we just put some stuff in the background? And it was, of course, I'm gonna do that anyway, you know, easy. So um long, long way of answering your question. Like, I think getting to work on your own kind of like original idea while balancing like your time and sort of like your imagination with how to problem solve for established IP. The iron just sharpens the iron for me. And the opportunities uh and the enthusiasm and the different kinds of readers that you get to interact with at signings and conventions and stuff. Um, it really just kind of like fills out what I thought being a comic book creator would be. Yeah. And uh it just keeps encouraging me to keep going. What about you?

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Yeah, I mean, I I think all of us have a fandom that kind of gets us to this point. Uh, Spider-Man for me, easily, and Star Wars. So I used to, uh, when my attorney told me, because you know when you whenever you're taking a job on a TV show, they give you those 500-page contracts that tell you they own everything. But he's like, you know, you can write in stuff and then they'll still, they're still hiring you. So I would always put in a Spider-Man exemption and I would just write it in that if Spider-Man hires me, there's no two-week notice. I'm just off on that show and I'm I'm I'm moving on. And it went through every time. I mean, I worked for years with that in there. And so there are things that I think reinvigorate the kid in you that got you to that place in the first first place. Uh when I worked at Blizzard, they had a, you know, their company, you know, the the slogans for all the things that they, the pillars that they wanted. But one of them was embrace your inner geekdom. And I think that that's something that is a recharge. But then on this flip side, all the people I realized that I admire, the Kevin Eastmans, the Stanleys, you know, even though Stanley created this, what is now a giant billion-dollar corporation, those are all his, you know, his and Jack's and his and Steve's creations uh that the rest of us are rewarded from. So it was that that act of creating my own stuff that I just that's a high that you can't replace. It's really fun to work on Star Wars, and it's really fun to work on Spider-Man, and I will jump at it every time. But there's nothing better than making my own stuff. Oh, yeah. Especially with with my jacks and my Steves and the guys that I'm getting to collaborate with, the Marcuses of the groups.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

What's one thing you've changed your mind on or changed your mind about over your years in the field?

SPEAKER_02 53:54

Uh I think from it's a it's coming from TV film, and again, this is like a generational shift where I was brought up where everything's secret, the marketing department makes the plan, you don't share anything till so it's really less on the creation of the product and like how do I actually do what we're doing right now, which is talk to people that I hope would also like my product and tell them it's available and where to find it. And the influencer culture and a lot of what Gen Z has been doing, where they're just like, I had an idea, here it is on a napkin, I shared it. Now you're involved in the process of this. I think that's fascinating because it's so contrary to when you work at these giant corporations where you know the secret to a Marvel thing three years before everybody else does. And then when you see it, like maybe six months after it's been out, you're like, okay, finally I can relax and pretend that's not in the secret file in my brain that I'm scared I'm gonna, you know, mention. Um, so I think just like being more open about like this is the stuff I've got coming up. I don't have a publisher yet. I'm just making a thing and sharing it out there. It's it's been very liberating. So that's something that I would have probably gone back and told my younger self not to stress about so much, just because it had been such a part of the culture of every video game, TV show, movie that I'd work on.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Yeah. I mean, you gotta you gotta keep a lid on it. Yeah. For those reveals. For me, I haven't changed my mind about anything. I haven't learned anything. Nothing. I haven't uh I don't know. Um the more things change in comics, kind of the more they stay the same. Uh, people historically, like if you read a bunch of the books about the history of different publishers or just the medium at large, like you know, you dig into like Scott McLeod's writings and stuff like that, you do see these booms and busts because like the comics market, for lack of a better term, and the comics industry for lack of a better term, is a reflection of wider trends. Yeah like always has been, always will be. There were comic book adaptations on the radio from comic strips and the newspaper back in the day. There's always been multimedia and merch and like tie-ins and brand collabs and crossovers, and so I used to one thing I've changed about myself, I used to kind of like like being a snob. You know, like like I think a lot of younger people like you know, because you feel like you're doing the new thing and like you know, and like you've got this new taste or new perspective. And I used to feel like maybe I had a little bit of that, and now I'm just like, no, no, I'm I am uh, you know, the universe experiencing itself um through like you know, this one little Caleb, Caleb thing. And uh I I just try to like chill out so much and just focus on what I'm doing, and um while still you know trying to like appreciate everybody else's art. And I feel like the more I do that and the less I have to have like a take or like an opinion, uh, the better the art that I get to work on becomes. And uh watch me be a huge hypocrite about that, like the next thing I post on social media.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

Well, I think that's the thing. Like as pros, we're supposed to be critical of the work. We can have an opinion on things, but you don't necessarily have to share it. Yeah. So I found that putting that positivity out there and sharing the things you do love and the creators you do love and the stuff that you think does enhance the craft, that's a good thing to put out there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

Well, you know, we do we do really need criticism, and we definitely need good things like journalism, and we always need somebody watching out for everybody and and you know, taking notes and seeing things and raising the flag, but like purely just as like um, you know, especially this life phase. That's not right now, that's not exactly my role.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

And uh, I mean, it could be again someday, of course, like things change, but um I've tried to like, you know, after being like a blogger, where it's your job to like make everyone mad and make fun of everything, and um just like you know, kind of like be more of a comedian almost than an active participant and creating art. Um you can do both of those things depending on who you are. Uh, but like for me right now, I've loved just like taking a step back and being like, you got a toddler, so you don't need to be like, I don't know, talking about whatever the new TV show is and how the lighting wasn't right, and just like whatever. Like, let's make like definitely like ingest your own opinion and your own feedback and your own criticism. And like, where do I put that? Yeah, how is this better sent than like firing off something that will just like get a Russian bot to argue with me? Uh and like it's like you get you get more time back in your day, you get a little less doom scrolly and a little more scribbly scrabbly on your own projects. And um, that's that's really what I've been seeking uh and trying to do these days.

SPEAKER_02 59:13

And I think that's all of us. If we keep trying, then that's winning.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

Hi, I hope you enjoyed listening as much as I did. If you want to explore more from these creators, go to your local comic shop or go to our website at idwpublishing.com.