Sand Is Out, Light Is In: The Future of Laser Safety with Ken Puckett

As laser technology rapidly transforms industries like manufacturing and aerospace to construction and restoration, understanding how to use it safely has never been more important.

In this episode, we sit down with Ken Puckett, a leading expert from Laser Product Safety, to explore the complex world of laser compliance, safety standards, and real-world applications. With decades of experience and involvement in global standards committees, Ken shares insight into what it truly takes to bring a laser product to market and operate it responsibly.

Together, we unpack the critical difference between simply selling a laser as a “tool” versus implementing it as a complete safety program. The conversation dives into the role of third-party testing labs, how manufacturers comply with FDA requirements, and why standards like ANSI Z136.1 are essential for organizations using Class 3B and Class 4 lasers.

We also explore the growing use of laser cleaning technology in industries like aerospace, automotive restoration, ship maintenance, and historic preservation. From managing nominal hazard zones to controlling airborne contaminants and protecting passersby in field operations, Ken explains the real-world safety considerations that companies must address as laser adoption accelerates.

One theme stands out: technology is moving fast and safety must keep pace.

Whether you're a manufacturer, contractor, safety officer, or simply curious about the future of industrial technology, this episode offers a practical look at how lasers are reshaping modern work and why safety programs will define the industry's success.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How manufacturers legally bring laser products into the U.S. market
• The role of third-party compliance testing and FDA product reports
• What the nominal hazard zone means and why it matters
• How laser safety programs differ between controlled facilities and field environments
• Why industries are shifting from abrasive methods to laser-based solutions
• The future of laser technology across construction, infrastructure, and restoration

As Ken mentions, “Safety has to keep pace with technology.” And in a world increasingly powered by light, that responsibility has never been greater.

Learn more about Laser Product Safety at https://www.laserproductsafety.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:13

I'm here with Ken Puckett from Laser Product Safety out of uh Ken, where are you where are you from out there? Are you still out of the We're in North Carolina, just about 20 minutes from RDU airport. Well, first, I I just want to thank you for all your help here with our team. It's been an absolute uh eye-opener, a pleasure, and just so helpful. Um laser compliance and laser product safety, um, both from the manufacturing standpoint, what a manufacturer needs to do for uh to bring code-compliant lasers into the United States as an OEM manufacturer, uh, laser safety, but also in uh safe facilities, safe practices. Uh, that's the other half of it. And from my perspective, I think uh I think that uh lasers are not sold as tools, they're should be sold as programs and you know with the FDA and what we understand about class four lasers in the US. And uh so to approach it that way is is probably the right the right thing to do. But tell us a little bit about what you what you do what you do at Laser Product Uh Safety. What you do?

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Well, um as you know, lasers are found in all different categories of equipment: medical research and development, construction, uh dentistry, um just audio, video, communications, telecom. They're found in everywhere. And um what we do at Laser Product Safety is we assist manufacturers of these types of laser-based products. Uh we're actually a third-party neutral test lab where the manufacturer will have to prove that his laser product meets published safety requirements via a report, a technical report. And he can't he cannot do it himself. He has to go and get a third party to do it. So that's what we do. Um but yeah, I like what you said there. A lot of times, um a lot of lasers products can be just sold as um a product and the the the user can use it, you know, relatively safely. But uh in what you guys are working with a little different, isn't it? Yeah, it's um it's not quite what we're seeing. What we should be seeing. Absolutely not. Yeah. These um these laser cleaners are um you know, they're they they can be dangerous if not controlled by what's required by the standard ANSI Z136.1.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

So ANSI is the governing body.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

For those that don't know, ANSI is is um tell us tell us a little bit about whether it's how how it works is um the federal law of the United States is the OSHA Act. And um what the general duty clause of OSHA says, um a manufacturer must comply with any national published standards for whatever industry he's working in. And um uh laser product manufacturers must comply with ANSI Z136.1.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

And who's considered a laser manufacturer? Um there's a lot of imported lasers coming in.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Yeah, so well if if um if a company here in the United States uh purchases a laser product that's manufactured in China, um the Chinese manufacturer would be considered the manufacturer, and the company selling the laser in the United States would be considered the applicant. Um if the uh the company in the United States chooses, they can assemble you know, buy it in pieces and assemble it here, and they become the manufacturer.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

So there's ways, you know.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

But either way, they need to they need to meet uh our standards, and who who writes the standards for laser safety or laser product safety? Uh what's the governing body there?

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Well, um here in the United States, um uh the laser safety standard is anti-Z136.1 and the um 21 CFR subchapter J part 1040.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

What is the FDA standard?

SPEAKER_02 5:22

That's the FDA standard. They work hand in hand. And it's basically um a group of a group of experts that meet and discuss the standard and write the standard. Okay. And they have to keep it updated. So I serve as an expert on the ANSI committee here for the United States. So I I help write the series of ANSI standards.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

And that's right down to the equipment of what what what the bills we were talking about, proper labeling.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

We were talking, is that does it fall into that category of yes, every type of engineering control that's required is discussed, and you know, so there are nothing requirements.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

When we say there new there needs to be uh um redundant interlocks or how how that system fails, we were talking about a different uh different things, tooling on the or key keys to the you know, the casing, how the labels look, that would be emission indicators, all of that falls under ANSI.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Yeah, all right. That's right. Now, outside of the borders of the United States, um the laser uh product safety standard is IEC6825. Okay. And this is um, you know, this is what the whole world uses. So it's kind of like, you know, the United States is um, we have our own so we're kind of off, but do they do they cross over reasonably well? There's some harmonization. There is some harmonization there, but they're never going to adopt the the United States is never going to adopt the IEC 6825 flat out. So I'm on that committee, that's called the IECTC 76, and I'm uh a delegate, a United States delegate for that committee. Got it. I was and and that group gets together and discusses those. We show up as a group of United States delegates, and it's kind of like a small United Nations. Yeah. You know, you got the the other delegates, the Japanese, the Germans, the Italians, the British, you know, and we all sit around and we keep that standard up. So um that's where the standards come from. Uh and they're always having to be updated and amended and changed. And you know, you have to bridge the gap between new technology and the standard, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Um that's one of the things that makes it a little challenging when you know you have a technology that's been put out and there's no safety requirements written for it.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

I think that's why we called you. And I was looking at your, you know, on online, and you have a pretty deep list of committees and technical experience, and and and I didn't know even what's what some of those groups were. You know, it was it was new to me. Yeah. And I and I knew that we were bringing you over to look specifically at we're we're an OEM manufacturer, or can you know, so so in terms of our our equipment and the safety, understanding that it it related to that, uh, but knowing what um what they do is good. There's a couple others, uh a couple other committees that you were referencing.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Yeah, I'm on uh TC76. I'm on um I'm the secretary of working group five, which is for telecom.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

So I'm an officer on that committee. Um I'm in three of the ANSI committees, um, measurements, telecom, and of course, uh uh facility assessment.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Right. Um oh there was something, there were some designations about there's groups that like we're in class four lasers. Yeah. But there are other things. Like like you said, LED, there's medical, there's different, there's different uh groups. There were there were committees for those things, or there were uh Yeah, I'm on the uh committee task force for LEDs.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

LEDs is a completely different hazard than laser hazard. That's a photobiological hazard. Um and it's a it's just it's different from lasers. It's lasers are a um very narrow bandwidth emission. LEDs is a broadband, so the eye reacts differently to broadband. Like for these lights here, my our eyes are are reacting completely different than if they were lasers shooting at us.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

So with these class four lasers that you're seeing, what are some of the considerations around that? Um I mean, what are you seeing? You're you're you're laying hands on these things for firsthand, and and uh what comes to mind? Well, what comes to mind first of all is um it's you have a class four laser that's in your hand that can be walked away from a unit about 35 yards for you know what have you, 35 feet?

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yes, and you can you know wave it around.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

That's that's a concern. And what happens if how's that different from welding? Like if you move that thing out of if uh a slip, it pr it's probably gonna do something to you.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Right. So um with these with these class four lasers that we worked with with you today, um it's very important that um what's called the nominal hazard zone spend a lot of time on that.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

That was pretty that was interesting.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

And what that is is um uh uh when you're you're cleaning a material with one of these lasers, the the radiation will of course scatter and reflect. It'll be diffuse and broken up, but um the closer you get to the working area, the more hazardous it is. There and so what the nominal hazard zone is, it it specifies the distance at at which it's safe to be.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

So think about that for a minute. We're not only in controlled environments, but these things are going out into the field. So conditions change. Joint occupants might be on a job site, you might be in a tank, you might be in a ship, you might be in a uh high-rise building, you know, doing doing uh work. So nominal hazard zone is crucial. And we were looking at worst-case scenarios for different every substrate and every wouldn't every laser be different and every substrate would be different, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Um the the nominal hazard zone um is directly related to what's called the maximum permissible exposure MPE, which is wavelength dependent. So if you're using a 1064 nanometer laser, that's gonna, you know, go into the equation for the nominal hazard zone for that wavelength. If you're using a UV 355 or you know, a high high infrared laser, changes the hazard zone. The power level changes the hazard zone. So the hazard zone is never set in stone, it has to do with what laser you're using and how powerful you're turning.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

And if you're deploying these in the field, in the shop, ANSI has a standard of what what's required, which is which is what you're containing, you're doing the you're doing the same type of functions, the the containment, the hazard zone, the but in the field, ANSI doesn't make any distinction about in in that's a good question. Um they you have to set up a temporary to meet the ANSI standard. So you you have to evaluate your work, which could be variable, yeah, and then do the same things and bring it down at the end as you're that's an excellent point.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

The ANSI standard is really geared for an enclosed area like this room, yeah, where we're gonna use controlled, controlled and shop work walls, ceiling, you know, all that. Um but um when you're gonna use these these laser cleaning uh devices outdoors, um it's it's there are you know, we can we can you know subject the requirements that are applicable, yeah, but it's a little more difficult than if you were indoors. So you're still gonna need to turn to determine your nominal hazard zone, but you may, you know, you're gonna have to set up some sort of a canopy or laser curtains or laser barriers around the area that's being worked on.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

And then deal also with, I mean, the other side is the laser-generated air contaminants, which can be unique. So then how you're ventilating, how you're collecting what becomes an airborne uh you know, hazard.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Airborne contaminants are a concern, especially outdoors, because there are certain limits, and if you go above those limits, now you've got the EPA involved. So fumus fume extraction is very important.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

I I that's a stickler to me because I sit here and you know, I was telling you our are even going through the you know, the process that what you're seeing a lot of is maybe a guy with an N95 mask on.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

But laser hazards could be so varied, so different that it is not um that becomes a little bit more complex, but proper fume extraction might not even be a hepovac. It's it's chart, you know, it's the VOC capture or it's whatever is appropriate for what you're working on. What you're working on. And I remember testing out different systems. If you're in a big shop, can you enclose the entire environment that you're working in? We were looking at some of the varied materials that even come in our facility. And I go, well, we built a laser room, right? But I'm bringing 40-foot things in here that we can only go around and and um, you know, how do we? Oh, we got a mezzanine, somebody could look down on that. Somebody could uh so you're you helped really help us articulate those. A guy could be laying down on his back, shooting it up this way, yeah. And I'm shooting something for a big aerospace company, uh, titanium, and you're talking about hazardous. That all of a sudden I'm hitting this titanium alloy, and the reflection off of that must have been as strong as so when we're talking about when we're talking about the reflection, um, scattered reflection, direct reflection, which is like considered just the same strength as the beam. Yeah, but guys are sitting here working on this stuff, and it might be aluminum or like and and the diffuse reflection is it's it's not what I worry about. Like I said, I do worry about a direct hit, you're done. Yeah, and if I had to talk to another owner, what I worry about with my own employees is one of those. One one miss or one not using, you know, engineering controls are great, but in with what we're seeing, that's not always you're you're doing procedural things. So not to get into the rabbit holes of the thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

It kind of um circles back to what you were saying about um uh for these type of devices, um, it's not just like buying a tool. You have to buy uh like a program.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Well, I think the FDA would say that that's regulated equipment. Yeah, and we looked at even the equipment builds and nameplates fall off and and switches that can be well, keys we were looking covered. So we we spent a lot of time going through builds and redundant. Um, could how does this fail? Does it what happens if you run over the the uh fiber optic cable and will it shut off? What is is it just a a twist lock start? Can you remove the key when it's in the on position? Can you control access to the equipment? So you you are so helpful in helping us really um well thank you look at well, but we're we're seeing a lot of that, and and I think safety is of critical importance as this thing, it's on a trajectory. So you you want to educate who whoever we can about not only a pro you know what what to look for in a laser, but also the the big aspect of operating it. And I would I would say we had this discussion in the in the room, right? And I can see you looking at your, I'm looking at you and you look at me, and you're like, well, it was Steve from LaserMet. I'm at the FabTech show, and and he he drilled it home for me in in his description of what happens. So we go in his, he they have these great enclosures and the inner locks, and well, you're getting two welders in there or two laser cleaners working in a and they're going, and one guy's doing what? Lifting up his mask, lifting up, like he'll stand up, look back at it, put it back down, go down, start working. And then you see that another guy might might be still working, right? Like it gets dynamic. And so their control system does what? It it shuts down, one guy lifts the mask up, and that kills the power, kills the power, somebody opens the door, kills the power, kills the power. And um, you know, the C and the key, the the I mean, the touch of the LC, you know, like the TV that's recording all the activities, you know, going on in there was that's an ironclad setup, I have to say.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

That would be optimal, you know, if you could interlock um the situation. But but then again, we're now talking about you know, walls, ceiling.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Um, you know, that's your best case scenario. Um when you're working with one of these types of lasers within a room. Um, we can, you know, yeah, we can put in the engineering controls and the administrative controls. But outdoors, um, you still can, but um, you know, uh that's just a little, a little more, more work involved.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Yeah. I think that's what we're helping. What I I would like to help those that are, you know, you're integrating a laser cleaning. I mean, our focus as a company is to for the clients that work in regulated environments, multi-trade environments, that have to integrate laser operations into their programs. And usually they have a safety, um, they have a safety focal in their organization. But the LSO and the safety, the safety training around the laser hazard needs to be, in my view, integrated into construction. Uh, and they would have these, you know, that like, okay, well, you're working in confined space, vault protection, joint occupant uh hazards, things that you would see where you're you're bringing that onto a site that also may have other hazards. And the hazards around lasers are they're quantifiable, eye, respiratory, um, but the measures aren't always intuitive. Hot work. It can be considered hot work.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

The reason I say that, you know, it takes a little more work if you're gonna be using this out in the field, outdoor outdoors, is because of passers by and onlookers, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

When you're inside of a facility. You can control the doors, you can lock all the doors. Only one guy is in there working. But when you're outside cleaning like a ship hull or a fuselage of an aircraft or a pressure hull of a submarine, take it, yeah. And you know, it's outside. You know, you can set up your curtains and your barriers. We're doing a lot of facade work.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Somebody could be walking by. We're watching it and we're shutting down the streets, we're putting the laser curtains up. We got the street, you know, the permits, and then you're waiting six months for those things just to do a you know job. But we're starting to do larger facades. And we said, well, they're gonna scaffold it, they're gonna protect it, usually. So you might be working within an envelope on a large, but you're still inside that enclosure, and you're still looking at enclosing the area of which you're working and controlling the in like it in aerospace. I work with it's not an impossibility, no, but it's a little more work involved, is what I'm trying to say. So it's part of your it's part of that JSHA and you know, figuring things out. And at Boeing down there, I mean, everything's considered hot outside. There's no whatever you're doing, uh, they want to make sure that airborne, if or if you're in a big plant, that the airborne contaminants are not good getting out into the joint occupant space. So they're looking at negative air, you know, they're looking a lot at air and and and the hazards involved around it. Um, but with that said, that's um you're right. And we we we uh we had to have security because people ignore the I mean unfortunately. Don, I was mind-boggled. I was out there just lady. I mean, look, we got do you see these? The co nobody or you know, there, but so we actually had to have security just for one guy to to get his work done. And and contractors or folks implementing would also, it's kind of like sitting back and going, okay, Ken, how how are we gonna bid this job? Well, I'd say, well, put put put a little put a little in over here and over there.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Yeah, and I I um and that's why I really like your approach to this. Um, you know, uh, that uh you want to be able to inform users of the hazards and what should be done, and not just say, well, here, here's a really dangerous device. I hope you enjoy it. Yeah. You know, um I really like your approach to this, uh Ryan. You know, I it's a necessary thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

I mean, you're seeing what what are we foreseeing here in the next five years? Do you think there's gonna be an increase in lasers in the field on construction?

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Sand is out, light is in. I said it years ago, copper's out and glass is in. Um, you know, with the telecom. You know, our internet is run on lasers, except for the last mile bottom deck, right? Yeah, copper's out. It used to be all coax cable. Wow, you know, really short bandwidth, but now they can jam just huge bands, bandwidths on on you know, multimode fiber. Well, you're copper's out, glass is in, sand is out, light is in.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Like for for for this type of safety, it's your group. I I consider you guys a uh a tremendous resource for us. I'm thinking about engineered outcomes on, you know, you you hear me talking to you about, but if you're doing, you know, like we're we're sending our our samples of testing to labs, like, or we're um metallurgists, or we're looking at, we're we're getting the the profiles looked at, where we're quantifying the outcomes that we need to achieve. If you're gonna say you can etch some surface to a certain standard, you got to prove that standard, but you also have to understand that you're doing that with heat. And are you causing uh you can get up there and say, well, something looks good, but you're understanding what's happening to the metal. So you could see my my focus on this and in all of our experience in our other divisions in infrastructure renewal and mechanical, you know, in that side of it, I think about it being applied in can in construction, but your help and safety has been really needed for those looking to bring lasers out there. And it's not just here's what to look for in laser equipment, of which there's probably a big swath that is is not is not probably probably doesn't meet MFDA uh requirement out requirements out there, but it's how okay you guys have a shop, you're a pipe fit and outfit, or you're a big sandblasting company doing work in-house, and you have trades over here doing A, but you need to laser over here. And that's a program. That's that's um everything from air to the radiation hazards that you've PP. You've helped us navigate.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

And it's not all ATVs. Yeah, it's a lot. Um I see this particular device, these devices, these cleaning devices, to just continue to be, you know, to continue to grow in use. Yeah, you know, um, especially in the automotive industry, right? Um restoration industry. Uh of course the cleaning of shipholes and aircraft and submarines and historical restoration and woods, woods.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Woods itself has its own hazards. A lot of people don't understand about the weird hazards that come off of wood, or it might look good, but if you're charring, so I'm thinking about it on that side. Yeah, if you're overheating those fiber, it's not going to absorb stains the same way. Uh well, like scraping or sand, they all have different effects on the wood and the substrates and the hazards that that come off, strange things coming off of wood in people's homes or not to be, but you know, it's looking looking at it on the front end, you know. But um, but that's definitely what what what are the um, I wanted to ask you, what are the manufacturers' responsibilities to bring? Let's say you want to um bring import lasers into the into the US, you're doing a few things.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

There's the three six, you know, you're registering, you're you're doing some product reports, you're gonna have to do the appropriate measurements, you're gonna have to do the appropriate testing. You're gonna have to classify the product, classify the radiation in accordance with the specifications. Okay. Once you determine that, then you're gonna have to fill out what's called a product report. And um that's what we're gonna be doing with with with a couple AR machines, yeah. Yeah, and um that product report gets filed with the FDA. The FDA um issues what's called an accession number to that report, and that gives you the go ahead to sell in the United States marketplace.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

So you don't just stamp your detail on the side of the note. You're you're checking the build of that unit.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

And the FDA is not necessarily digging in to check the FDA does not, when they issue their accession number, they put on the very clearly on the bottom, um, this accession number does not mean that we, the FDA, have approved your product. If the honest is on the manufacturing, I saw that on the bottom of the 2877.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

It says, if you're not, if if you're just for it's a it was a federal yeah I mean they had a statement on the bottom, and I I was going, okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Yeah, they don't want to put it, they they just say, okay, you've done you've done your due diligence, you filed a product report with us, here's your accession. And now they put it in their archives and they can go back and look for it if anything, if there's ever any litigation involved. So, and they could possibly pull yours out and comb through it, give you a call and say, hey, you know, explain this.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

But they're also looking at who's looking at the OMs to say this this is a real ONM, that this is this is means that we're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Well, it's the honest the honest is on the manufacturer, but um um, you know, like in our case, we would check your OM for compliance. The you know the requirements are the same. The FDA, the 21 CFR.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Okay, and then from that standpoint, um you you're help helping uh understanding. We assist manufacturers with that. Yeah. Uh operators have some responsibilities, which is also LSO, right, to to document that the lasers are, you know, you're you what you were telling us down here about laser inventory, laser or your authorized users and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Right. So how it works is um after the accession number is issued, the manufacturer of that laser product is is legal to sell his product uh in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

So in our case, we we are doing a little bit of both. We're we're taking equipment and we are upgrading builds for FDA, like for solid FDA compliance in the US. So we're looking at the interlocks, we're looking at what's in it. And I'm not a I know what we we know what we want out of the lasers and how to build, but but in terms of going, you know, too. Yeah, but then I'm delving into well, this thing has to run up there in the salt air, or it's gonna be in these environments, and then that's that's the side I like, which is more the the mechanical thing there we should probably uh say is the the anti-Z136 uh standard is it's a user standard for class 3b or four lasers.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Okay. Okay, so so if you import anything under a class 3b laser or and then you sell it, and the user of that laser product uh he he that ANSI doesn't come into play. Okay, it don't you only need to comply with ANSI is when you are using a class 3B or 4 laser product, which is the case here with Cisco. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

And so that's why AND So the buck stops and once we're you know, you're uh does the FDA if if you put something on, they don't they consider you the OEM of record in the US? Sure, yes. Like you can't, you know, it's not you can't pitch over to the someone over, you know, over C they're gonna stop somewhere and that's with the seller. Okay, that makes sense. What are the users? Now you're using it.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

So now let's say you buy a class three beer four laser and you start using it. Um you're supposed to uh comply with ANSI Z136.1. Right. And if if if you just ignore that and there was some problem, and someone were to get, you know, there was some litigation involved, you would be liable for those damages because you just didn't do your due diligence and look into this. Um anybody purchasing a class 3B or 4 laser needs to comply with ANC C136.1. And that means they need to have a laser safety officer on site and they have to have to have a complete laser safety program written up and follow those standard operating procedures.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

And we know that the LSO designation is kind of a starting point, isn't it? It's just like I'm going through it and your team's but they've got to run that for it.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

It's a name tag.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Well, that's gotta be, let's give you the name tag.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Yeah, so that's um we're we're we see that it feels like that, you know, um if we could do one thing on those buyers to is to is to help them integrate that into their programs at the least reasonable, I wouldn't say cost, but in terms of like two in our in our in in my view, it goes out and it becomes reactive. Like you you've bought a tool, you love it, and they are incredible tools. Oh, yeah. Incredible tools. Yeah, it was really important. They're gonna change this industry. Absolutely. But getting it, you know, for the mindset of those guys, I see a lot of the tr trades guys and the electrician, these folks that are, they just have the good mindset for um for the use, but using that safely and when things are reactive. Number one, I think about safety reactive. We didn't know. Number two is what it's doing, how to use them properly on substrates, and a lot, and and it, and I think that's being driven by the industry. I um there's no there's no like I can look up mechanical standards in our HVAC division over there and know know how you're supposed to do something. And it's growing fast, but if we could go, guys, we can we can help. I like them.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Um that you can remove graffiti with these things.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Well, we'd you you you can, but I mean I'm not against graffiti. The next thing they're going is well, how do we bid this job? You know, like how fast is it gonna go? How are we gonna bid it? What's it what kind of results are we? And I'm like, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

I'm not gonna need to be able to do it. Sometimes you know they can put graffiti on a national monument or something, you know. That's yeah, okay. Uh so and there's so many uses, so many uses for these cleaners.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Well, I think you're what you're doing is is fantastic. And that ecosystem, whether um, I mean uh this is going, and and to educate folks, the faster we can do it, regardless of of um whether they bought somebody else's laser or whatnot, the faster we can help, the faster uh we can help inform the industry that otherwise, I mean, I I look at, you know, I have different divisions and stuff, and I go, well, what we've shelled out reacts to go, nope, that's not the right, that's not the right thing. That's okay, we're gonna um it it can be costly to assemble after the fact.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

And the way I look at it is is safety have has to keep pace with technology. And a lot of times safety is running after technology. You know, it's technology comes out and safety is close behind trying to get up. The last thing we want to see in this industry is safety to lag way, way behind. And now we're gonna see some incidents.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

That's it. And what I what I worry about is is not sure I worry about a uh a drastic laser injury, but what I was telling you, it's no, no, no. It's that over time, that exposure, or getting like where you're taking like you're getting the whiffs of overtime airborne contaminants, or you're leaving them in the space. Like it's there's some things that are immediate hazards, right? But what I worry about is do uh are these things right now.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

It could be a chronic hazard that we gotta not, you know. You can think of an acute hazard and a chronic hazard, right? That's something else, you know, that could be.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Well, there's a lot of work to to do out there, but it it's um it's just been uh I'm I'm so happy to to to have you in our orbit. And I think, you know, same here. Uh helping people with the equipment, the operational hazards, getting a program put together efficiently. It takes it took so much stress off of me because it's the late night work. I used to work in this cave right here, like at night, jamming away on this, and then trying to run construction in the day on other things. And I understand. And uh this made it so much just easier. Um and um, we're protecting the public.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

That's the important part.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Thank you, bud. Appreciate it. You did a great job, and uh let's um keep going. And there's more work to do out there, and thank you. I appreciate it.