Ep2: If You Were Organised You’d Be Dangerous

A choir can change your life, but not always in the tidy, planned way you expect. I’m joined by Adelaide-based musician, performer, and choir director Carol Young, and we trace the real-world path that takes her from a childhood where everyone sang in harmony to a working career across classical voice, jazz choir, theatre, teaching, and community music.

Carol talks candidly about the moments that shape a midlife creative life: choosing opportunities that keep you connected, learning to trust intuition (even when it looks like chaos), and rebuilding after losing a job. We dig into what choir leading actually looks like behind the scenes, from teaching singing through ensemble repertoire to wrangling community choirs on stage, and why humour can be both a tool and a tell for nerves.

A big focus is Carol’s work with Tutti Arts and Tutti Choir and what inclusive choral singing demands when disabled and non-disabled singers share the room. We cover practical disability allyship, pacing, anxiety, flexibility, support workers, and why owning a mistake out loud can keep a group safe. Carol also shares a surprisingly moving COVID story about online rehearsals, isolation, and the joy of simply seeing your mates again. We finish with a sing-along that doubles as a reminder: Enjoy Yourself, because it really is later than you think.

Subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find these stories of community choirs, inclusive arts, and finding your voice. Got thoughts or questions? Email me at mlchoirsispodcast@gmail.com.

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Transcript

Welcome And Meet Carol Young

Speaker 2 0:13

Welcome back to Midlife Choirsis. My name is Kerrie Polkinghorne, and today we have our first guest in the studio. We're going to hear from Carol Young. Carol Young is an Adelaide-based freelance musician and performer whose experience spans multiple genres at a local, national and international level. Carol is a collaborative pianist singer and musical director. She's worked extensively with the State Theatre Company of South Australia, with the Adelaide Cabaret Festival, State Opera of South Australia, Adelaide College of the Arts, and Tutti Arts, as well as other projects along the way. Carol is a performing artist and she's appeared in many, many shows across Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, lots of festivals, including the Adelaide Fringe, Adelaide Cabaret, Melbourne Comedy Festival - you name it, she's done it. I'm really excited to have her as my first guest. She absolutely fits the bill of what we're doing here at Midlife Choirsis. We are not taking ourselves too seriously, but we are taking our work seriously, and that is the fantastic and amazing work of creating choir experiences and building community through choral singing. And I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome, Carol, to the show. Carol Young!

Speaker 1:31

Thanks, Kerrie Pokinghorne.

Speaker 2 1:33

So excited to have you here.

Speaker 1:34

It's great to be here.

Speaker 2 1:36

So, Carol, you're my first guest on this show on uh Midlife Choirsis. Welcome.

Speaker 1 1:40

Like a Virgin. Woo!

Speaker 2 1:44

I am pumped about this. And um, I guess one thing we will talk about a bit later is about your unique style of directing and and personality and things. But before we get too deep in all that sort of thing, um, for our listeners, we want to get to know you a little bit first. And so, can you tell us a bit about how you started and how you stumbled into your midlife choirsis? Ha!

Speaker 1 2:07

Well, stumbled is actually correct. I I think I've just been stumbling along forever, actually. Um, I was fortunate as a child, had a great childhood, excellent, lovely family who were always singing, there was always music. Um we all sang in harmony all the time, and we just thought that was normal, I think. We didn't realise until much later that it was like, oh, actually, lots of people can't do that. It's yeah, that's cool. Yeah, and we always had a piano. Dad, dad was a um sick child singer, and mum, so he grew up, you know, in the church choirs and St. Peter's um Cathedral choir as a treble when mum came from the other side, she was like song and dance girl.

Speaker 2 3:00

So both singers, yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, and um we all had piano lessons.

Growing Up In A Musical Home

Speaker 3:06

When I say all, that I've got two sisters, and my oldest sister and myself had piano lessons, and the middle sister rejected that notion. Um, she played football instead. Um, but yeah, very, very lucky to have piano lessons all the time. And I actually I remember um some of my first piano lessons, the music, you know, it was was deliberately created for kids' music books, and they had words. Like, so I just went, well, it's got words, you sing it as well. So I always played and sang right from when I started learning piano. It just all it was always two things at once. So I think back on that now and go, gee, that was lucky.

unknown 3:55

Yeah.

Speaker 3:55

So just luck, really, yeah, purely luck, and had a beautiful piano teacher, Mrs. Beth Green, who was head of music at Wilderness. Um, just she just happened to be around the corner from mum's workplace. So I'd go after school, and that was just lucky. She was a beautiful teacher.

Speaker 2 4:19

I like that you've called it luck because it is it is sort of deliberate upbringing, but in some ways it's it is luck because you can't choose the environment that you grew up in, but you look back now and see how many wonderful opportunities you had. Like you said, what an opportunity to have this piano teacher down the road.

Speaker 4:41

Pretty much. She was in our in our neighbourhood, but she was literally around the corner from mum's work. And so, you know, which was also near school. Yeah. So I'd go there after school and then I'd just trot down the road to my piano lesson. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that's lucky because you do you hear other people tell their stories of their musical background, and they've had teachers that they didn't like, and they've, you know, they haven't had a fun experience. I always felt like, oh, I'm gonna practise now. I mean, some of it was getting out of doing the dishes.

Speaker 2 5:19

You can be incredibly productive when you're trying to avoid something else. So great.

Speaker 5:24

That's my life.

Speaker 2 5:26

Well, personally, I I did not like piano lessons. Yeah, there you go. I could not stand piano lessons. But my sister loved it and I wanted to be like her. But I didn't know how to read a thing, and my teacher didn't um warm to me as a little kid. So I never liked it. So I go. But other instruments I've had great, you know, impressions of that, of that teacher and enjoyed it. But that's great that you had a positive experience from the outset.

Speaker 1 5:54

Yeah. So yeah, did music all the way through school and you know, kind of looking back now with my how much I enjoy leading a group, you know, I look back at school and go, oh, I was that bossy kid. Getting getting groups of girlfriends together going, okay, we're doing a play, okay. Okay, we're singing a song, um, you do this, you do that. And I think I was. You're born leader. I think I was bossy. Yeah. Oh, you need that. Um I like to think that they were having fun. I hope they were.

Speaker 2 6:31

Doesn't matter anymore, does it?

Speaker 1 6:33

No, it doesn't.

Speaker 2 6:34

You got the outcome.

Speaker 1 6:35

I mean, there's always counselling. Sorry, Sadie. No. Yeah. And then after school, I so I did my obviously did music all the way through school. Um, didn't go to a music school, but had great music teachers was again, I think it was life. Yes, yes. And my Year Twelve Music class, um, especially for music prac, so that was music too in those days. I don't know what it's called these days, but we had, you know, we this at Norwood High School. We had 16 or 17 kids in that class. And it's not a music school, but we had some exceptional musicians. That is a big class for Year 12. For example, Aldis Sills.

Speaker 2 7:24

Oh wow.

Speaker 1 7:24

We did Year 12 Music together, and yeah, we went through school all all together. And yeah, there's some other brilliant musicians who yeah. I mean, I guess if you're doing year 12 music, you're doing pretty well. Yeah. So then I went straight to South Australian College of Advanced Education in Kintore Avenue. So at that time, when was that, 1985? Oh, I've just aged myself. That's okay. Um, I might be a little beyond midlife, but thank you. I'll take it. So I got into both the Con and the college, we called it, and I chose college because I wanted to be in the Adelaide Connection.

Speaker 2 8:10

Ah, yes.

Speaker 1 8:11

That was a massive draw card for me.

Speaker 2 8:14

That's a jazz choir, isn't it?

Speaker 1 8:16

It is a jazz choir, yeah. So, which was put together by uh the late John Mackenzie, who was a brilliant choral conductor and crossover of genre person. He did classical and contemporary jazz. So I went to the college and did a three-year BMus in voice. So voice was my main instrument, but um fortunately having piano as well, I also did some of my electives. I did accompanying and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 8:51

Well, that's coming very handy, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 8:53

Extremely handy, yeah. But then there was also performing going along while I was at school. State Opera used to have a youth company in the 80s. And so I when I was at at high school, I was also singing in that State Opera Youth Company, which also had some amazing performers who have gone on to do have incredible careers across the arts, not just performing, but amazing careers.

Speaker 2 9:21

So did they do their own productions?

Speaker 1 9:22

Yeah, we had that we had our own productions run by industry people, but with kids. It was yeah, so kids from everywhere auditioned, state schools, private schools, and we all came together and did productions. We did things in Her Maj, we did things in the Playhouse, we did things in Scott Theatre. It was really great. It was really a great initiative. They had student orchestras as well, so yeah, they'd be you'd be amazed at the list of names of of the alumni that have come through that and gone on to be professional musicians. It gave you an insight into that world.

Speaker 2 10:05

Yeah. You sound like you've done so you did jazz, you did classical, you did opera..

Speaker 1 10:09

Yeah, yeah. So I did my my degree was in classical singing, and then I really what I wanted to do was music theatre.

Speaker 2 10:17

Yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 10:18

Yeah. But you know, that in those days there wasn't a music theatre course. I think WAAPA started their music theatre course a bit like maybe around that time or slightly later. But after doing the BMus in Classical, I decided that I should do the jazz course. Yep. I started getting teaching jobs because I could play and sing. Um, so I was teaching singing a lot. Gee, I wish I'd done a grad de paired back then. My education was free. Again, lucky, lucky duck.

Speaker 2 10:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Training Years And Genre Hopping

Speaker 1 10:55

Thanks, Goff. Um and yeah, lots of lots of my colleagues on my cohort who I studied with, they did their degree, then they went in. In those days, you could do a graduate diploma of education and it was a one-year course. Okay, and you just tapped it on the end of your BMus, and then you come out and be a qualified to get teachers' registration. Yep. Yep. I was a terrible person in that I believed it when people said those who can't perform teach. Yep. And I only wanted to perform, so I did not want to be seen as a teacher. Yeah. What a dickhead. Sorry, you can beep that one out. But I mean, we said terrible things to each other back then, and we we, you know, why would you do that?

Speaker 2 11:50

Yeah, and we've seen so much now that um you can have incredible teachers who, you know, for for whom that is their craft, that is their art, is how they actually teach what they do. And anyway, that can be a whole 'nother podcast. But I yeah, that that sort of dissuaded you from going into education?

Speaker 1 12:08

Yeah, I you know, I think and people had said to me that I would be a great teacher, and I was just like, I took that to mean that I wasn't going to be a great performer, and I, you know, really it riled me up. But then, you know, I didn't actually do anything positive in regards to seeking out a performance career. Really, in those days, you needed to move if you wanted to make something for yourself kind of. If you wanted to be where the auditions were taking place. And anyway, la la la, that's a different, that's a sliding doors moment. That's a different tangent. Um so I was teaching a bit for the education department, was my first teaching job, just peripatetic, going around to schools, teaching singing, and I reckon at that time the music school that I went to recommended me for a job to lead some people who wanted to learn group singing. I didn't really call it a choir, but it was through the Multicultural Association. Right. They wanted to put, you know, some people together. They were, you know, mostly kind of lefty folkies who wanted to sing songs in different languages. Right. So like that was a little gig I had.

Speaker 2 13:27

So like a weekly rehearsal.

Speaker 1 13:28

Yeah, a Sunday morning kind of thing. And I'd source songs from somewhere. Yeah. I don't know where I found them. It was pre-internet. So Yeah, right. Um, I guess I went to the library. Yeah. Wow. I guess I went to the uni library and kind of thumbed my way through books.

Speaker 2 13:50

And so that was your first experience of choir directing? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, did you did you think of it as choir directing at the time or just sort of singing lessons for a group?

Speaker 13:59

Or something took I thought of it as there's a group of people who want to sing songs from different cultures and they want to put some harmonies in. Yep. But that didn't equate to choir for me. We were sitting around in someone's lounge room. Yeah. You know.

Speaker 2 14:15

Um did it leave an impression on you or anything? Like what was your experience coming out of that?

Speaker 1 14:21

I did because I I learned about myself that I liked to fly by the seat of my pants. I wasn't very good at, and I'm still not actually at being organized.

Speaker 2 14:37

Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 14:39

I've come to know now that what that is is that I just intuit everything.

Speaker 2 14:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1 14:44

Yeah. I tend if I have to sit down and put thought towards things, I get a bit stuck. I just kind of go into free flow and go, what's, you know, what's next? It just, yeah, I I don't know. It's just intuitive.

Speaker 2 15:03

And I think when you were talking about what you didn't decide not to do education, maybe that was a massive blessing. Because I don't know. I can't speak for all teachers, but I can speak for myself, in that to a huge extent, being a teacher does take a huge amount of creativity out of me. As in, like, I can't be as creative as I would be because of the restraints of time, uh, curriculum, whatever it might be. I can be creative for sure. Absolutely. But the the parameters are quite tight. So maybe that was a huge blessing.

Speaker 1 15:42

So interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:43

Yeah. Um, okay, so you you kind of realize in yourself that you're quite intuitive in the way that you ran things.

Speaker 1 15:50

Only in hindsight now. Uh yeah. So at the time I just thought I was chaos.

Speaker 2 15:55

Okay. Someone's chaos is another person's intuition.

Speaker 16:00

And I do remember one of the um, one of the kind of core members of that multicultural choir group did, you know, as a throwaway comment, no, but it stuck with me, did say, Oh, Carol, if you were organized, you'd be dangerous. Okay. Which I kind of went, I'm oh, okay, I get it. I'm not organized. But he's sort of, it's sort of, I think he's praising me in that I if I had if I could, you know, put things together, I'd be really good. Yeah. And at that same time, I was singing with the Corinthian singers of Adelaide. Right. You know, when Mel Waters was directing them. So I learnt a lot. I sang with the Corinthians for, oh gosh, five or six years. I learned a lot about choral singing from singing with them. Yep. And I was in that crossover period when Tim Sexton took over from Mel Waters. And so we did a lot of contemporary stuff with him. He loved music theatre, so we did a lot of that. And I was singing in bands, a little bit of piano bar work as a singer pianist as well. Just that would be a little rent-paying film.

Speaker 2 17:24

Yep. So it's funny because you said you didn't um put yourself forward in the in the typical ways that lots of other people did. However, you've had this really broad career in music. How often have you found that coming in handy? Like the versatility of your skill set?

Speaker 1 17:40

It's it's incredibly it's come in handy a lot. Yeah, yeah. Just uh the broadness of my experience with genres, especially. Yeah. And you know, from a a point of view where you're le where you're dealing with other musicians or promoters, even, technicians, venue presenters. Yeah.

Speaker 2 18:07

Yeah, that's that's really cool. Isn't that interesting? Like hindsight can give you some amazing insights into into your different path and the different things that have happened along the way. When was it that you l landed your first choir director position that you considered legit?

First Choir Leading And Intuition

Speaker 1 18:24

Okay, well, so the teaching thing kind of led me to it, I suppose, because I was just getting more and more teaching work because I was a valuable resource, I suppose. I got a job for TAFE teaching music to the acting students at AC Arts. Well, it's now AC Arts. Back in the day it was called Centre for Performing Arts. Right. I'd teach singing as a group session and I would teach it as a choir. Yeah. So we had we'd put people into sections and so we'd try and teach, I'd try and teach technique, singing technique, but through choir repertoire. So I guess that is where I started directing choirs. Yep. Yeah. So there were three year levels going, and each each year level would be in the class at the same time. There were roughly 20 of them. So cottoned on to one great song, which actually most of my students at AC Arts would have learnt, which is You're All I Need to Get By by Aretha Franklin. Right. Brilliant song. Um, some beautiful harmonies, and I taught it to every group, learnt that song. And then as a cohort, all 60 of the students could sing it together at any time. And they, you know, quite often at the pub or anywhere it would happen. And there was this real sense of we're doing a thing together. Yeah. And yeah, even for the the non-singers, they would just get such a buzz out of that.

Speaker 2 20:08

People love a good community sing, don't they? Even like you say, even if they're not singers, you know. I think about the football. It's a choir session. Everyone loves the singing at the start or at the end, or whatever it might be. Uh yeah, everyone loves a good sing. Yeah. So you did that, and you've was that something you did for a little while?

Speaker 1 20:27

Yes. That job? Yeah, 20 years.

Speaker 2 20:30

Oh okay, for a little while.

Speaker 1 20:32

Yeah, yeah. And then, and then um the police band were looking for a keyboard player. And I'd, you know, I'd I'd been at TAFE for 20 years. I was really, probably the last five of it, I was kind of looking for something else. I was just getting a bit the the system was changing. So I'd kind of been going, what am I, what's next for me? And then the police band were looking for a keyboard player. So I threw my hat in. Wow. And I won that position.

Speaker 2 21:01

That's a tough gig.

Speaker 1 21:02

Yeah, it was a great gig. For me, it lasted for three years. My contract expired, they didn't renew it. I was devastated. Um, but in that time, I think I really found my way into communicating with communities. One of the small ensembles that I was in, we'd go around and do a lot of playing for community events, lots of retiree groups, aged care homes. And as soon as I put that uniform on, it really released some introversion in me. And I felt like I I can speak to people now.

Speaker 2 21:44

Yeah, it's almost like I have the permission now.

Speaker 21:47

And and I was, I was like, yeah, it was really was great to talk to people and go, I can talk to people. This is okay. Yeah. You know, whereas before, I think probably I'd oh look. This is saying too much, but I drank too much, Kerrie. I used to use I used to use alcohol a lot as a barrier breaker to be able to talk to people. And you don't do that when you're in the police band. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, that was really cool. And then um I did lots of good things with them. When we marched, I played an instrument called the bell lyre. Do you know a bell lyre? So it's like a glockenspiel.

Speaker 2 22:28

Okay.

Speaker 1 22:28

But it's on a um pole, and you've got a belt. Now this is hard to explain without the visuals. So I've got a belt going over me diagonally with a pocket down the bottom, and the pole of the bell lyre sits in that pocket, and then I'm holding the Glockenspiel um in my left hand facing me, and I'm playing it with a mallet in my right hand.

Speaker 2 22:57

Wow.

Speaker 1 22:58

Whilst marching in a straight line.

Speaker 2 23:02

Yeah.

Speaker 1 23:03

And there's formation stuff as well. But that was that was super fun. That would have been pretty coordinated. I enjoyed that. We went to, when I was in the band, we went to Basel in Switzerland for a military tattoo. So that would have been my highlight of being with police band. Super fun. Then I lost that job, and that's when I guess I was in my 40s by then, late 40s. And I really just had to reinvent myself. I kind of put word out, I said, I'm available for any accompanying that you might have at your schools. My voice had kind of started to go south, which I've still really never got to the bottom of, but that's just me. Hormonal changes, aging changes, menopause, emotional upheavals, lots of things. Um, so I really wanted to accompany more than teach singing. I did do some singing teaching, I just had to take whatever work I could get. There was an opportunity. State Theatre Company were doing a play called The Events, which was for Festival of Arts in must have been 2016. And on stage in that play, there is a community choir. So I'd met a lot of the State Theatre Company people when I was working at AC Arts, so I was familiar with a lot of those people. So I made a little inquiry. I said, Are you looking for any music stuff for that show? And they said, I know the MD's coming from Sydney, but we will be looking for community choirs. Okay. And I went, oh, okay, I'll put something together. Great. And that was big that was the beginning of La La Land. So I did a little call out just to mates, people I already knew, and and invited them to bring people if they wanted. I said, we're going to do a play for the festival with State Theatre Company and come along. We'll start learning the material. In the meantime, the MD who was coming had to pull out. So then I ended up getting that job.

Speaker 2 25:11

Oh wow. Yeah. So you MD'd it?

Speaker 1 25:13

I MD'd it. And that job was being on stage pianist and choir wrangler for that play. So that season we had oh, probably 15 or 16 different choirs come and participate in the play.

Speaker 2 25:32

Wow.

Speaker 1 25:33

They're on stage, they're singing, kind of like a Greek chorus, singing some things throughout. So I'm leading them from the piano.

Speaker 2 25:40

Wow. One hand on the piano, one hand directing. Yeah. Yeah, wow.

Speaker 1 25:44

Yeah. And there was a group from Tutti, Tutti's advanced choir group, which is called Poco Tutti. They participated, and that so that was when I first met the good people from Tutti Arts.

Speaker 2 25:58

So after that gig, you decided to keep this group going?

Speaker 1 26:02

Yeah. So everybody, so La La Land, after that season finished, everyone who was in the choir were like, well, we want to keep going, so let's keep going. Yeah. So we just did. We found a rehearsal venue down towards the end of Goodwood Road. There's a big church with the big green dollars. Ah, yes, a Russian Orthodox church. So behind there, there's this really um quite grotty hall.

Speaker 2 26:25

Perfect.

Speaker 1 26:25

We've met in there for a long time. And at the same time, Tutti were looking for a new choir person. So they got in touch and asked if we would do a if I'd do a project with them, a project called Day of the Song. And they got um Tony Lindsay, who occasionally sings with Santana. They brought him out to Australia and his musical comrade, Janice Maxie Reid. They both came out and we just we did this concert with them, kind of soul music, and I did the arrangements for Tutti Choir to kind of be like the backing singers. So that was my first Tutti gig, and then after that they said, Right, we want you to be the choir coordinator and and lead the choir from then on. And that was when I started working at Tutti in 2017.

Police Band Lessons And Reinvention

Speaker 2 27:19

Yeah. So then you you had gone from basically no choirs to two choirs, or choirs you're involved in, but then two choirs that you all of a sudden were directing within a a year or two of each other.

Speaker 1 27:32

Yeah. And then everything now, 10 years on, everything is choirs.

Speaker 2 27:38

Wow.

Speaker 1 27:39

So I currently work three days a week for Tutti, and I've got La La La Land, and I work at one day a week for the Primary School's Music Festival.

Speaker 2 27:49

Oh yes.

Speaker 1 27:50

So I I love that program so much. It's 150 years old, or maybe 125. My mum even did it back in the day when it was called the Thousand Voice Choir. Right. And then it developed into the Festival of Music. Yes. And this year I'm one of the official festival accompanists as well.

Speaker 2 28:12

Okay.

Speaker 1 28:12

Which is super fun. So I get to work with the orchestra as well. That's fun. And I accompany at one school at Ard tornish Primary School, which coincidentally my sister leads that choir. Oh my elder sister. And then I take the choirs at um Keithcot Farm Primary, and then I pop up to Uraidla Primary School. So I really like that programme. I think it's excellent. And I think that all schools should do it. I do a monthly choir in the pub. Yes. Yeah, that's fun. You can't, you we wouldn't call it pub choir because that's against the rules. So we call it choir in the pub. Hope that's okay, Astrid. And it's at the Joiner's Arms on the second Thursday of every month. You know, it's slightly more than a sing-along, but it's probably not as involved as what Astrid would do. Yeah. You know, lyrics are up on the screen. I do that with Kathie Renner, who's an amazing singer-songwriter around town. Yeah, it's really fun.

Speaker 2 29:18

Yeah. So you keep yourself extremely busy in lots of different ways, which is sounds like you're drawing on huge amounts of different experiences and skill sets that you've developed over your career. But I'm curious if you'd tell me a bit more about Tutti Choir. Tell me a little bit more about what Tutti Arts is and Tutti Choir, how that all fits in.

Speaker 1 29:39

Okay, so Tutti Arts is an arts organisation, especially for learning disabled and neurodiverse people to practice their art. So Tutti Arts offers programs in visual arts, music, choirs, dance, theatre, screen, there's a youth program, there's the Sisters of Invention, there's Company Act, so it's like an autistic theatre company. We've got a site in Port Adelaide and in the Barossa. But the main, the largest site is in Brighton. Wow. It's huge. It's really big. Yeah. Tutti Choir actually was the beginning of Tutti Arts. So that was, you know, when uh Pat Rix was the founder of Tutti Arts and she um came together with some people who wanted to sing in a community choir and wanted to include the residents from Minda. So it's an inclusive choir. So we've probably about 70% people identify as learning disabled or neurodivergent. And yeah, there's some community members as well who get an immense amount of joy.

Speaker 2 30:59

Yeah, come and come for the ride. Yeah. And you've done some cool stuff with Tutti choirs, haven't you?

Speaker 1 31:03

Yeah. Since I've been leading Tootie Choir, I think one of the things that we've started doing that is really fun is we we kind of started doing this sing-along concerts. And for Dream Big, a few years in a row, we'd do a big sing-along concert in Festival Theatre. Our first one, Hans, hosted that for us. So that was just brilliant. And we had we had a live band. Tutti Choir is about roughly 60, 60 to 70 people strong. We're on stage at Fezzi Theatre. And and having the audience sing along with us because we had the lyrics up on the screen, it was just it was really wonderful. Another thing that I've done at Tootie is work with the Sisters of Invention and I helped them create their cabaret show called You Ready for This, which we did at Adelaide Cabaret Festival and also at Perth Cabaret Festival. And last year we went up to Brisbane and performed in the Undercover Artist Festival, which is an um an umbrella program from the Brisbane Festival, which is a specifically disability-led festival. So that was really cool. This year, thank God it's Friday, which is my special very advanced group of eight singers. We're going to Festival of Voices.

Speaker 2 32:24

Oh, yes.

Speaker 1 32:24

So that's very cool in July. We did a great fringe show this year called Loud and Proud, where we showcased music of disabled artists. That was really cool. And then we talked a lot about how to be a good disability ally, and just kind of we talked about the disability pride flag, and yeah, it was really cool. We sang great songs, including some Australian artists like Eliza Hull and Alex the Astronaut, and again featured some of our brilliant soloists. Yeah.

Speaker 2 33:02

Wow. So you guys have done a lot of really cool things.

Speaker 1 33:05

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 33:06

I'm curious, curious to know what sort of skills you do you actually need to lead a choir with disabled and non-disabled singers in it. Any particular things you do differently to perhaps what you do in La La Land?

Speaker 1 33:21

I think definitely you need a lot of patience. Yep. You need to not move fast. There can't be any sense of rush because people get stressed.

Speaker 2 33:34

Right. Yeah.

The Events Sparks La La La Land

Speaker 1 33:35

There's quite a bit of anxiety that can go along with living with disability. Yep. So, you know, in order for people to feel comfortable using their voice, there has to be a sense of play and a sense of fun. So you model that and the way that you model it. I've been a bit of a dickhead in front of the choir. Yeah. But then also it can turn into chaos really easily. So it's a really fine line. And sometimes I don't find that balance. Um, but that's okay. I'm learning. Um after ten years.

Speaker 2 34:12

Well, the thing is it's people, isn't it? Yeah. And it there is no formula in that people will be feeling a certain way or be dealing with a certain thing.

Speaker 34:22

Oh, exactly. Yeah. You're very much in the moment because anything could happen. You have to be super flexible. You have to be an ally, which, you know, means you you've got to do your best to understand what is going on for them. People with learning disabilities and neurodivergence, their brains work differently. So you will be on your feet thinking about, okay, I'm gonna how do I problem solve that? I've got to be flexible, I've got to think outside the box. Um but you also can't get too serious. Uh, there's also, you know, some of the older, especially the older members who are living with disability, they've they've lived through, you know, institutionalized especially residential institutionalized living, yeah. Which it used to be pretty horrific up till not that recently. You know, lots of people don't get choices. Yeah. Sometimes they're shooshed, you know, they're quietened, they're they've they've learned how to comply. That doesn't always bode well if you're trying to release somebody's voice. So you've got to be prepared to hear people, and sometimes that can be messy. Yeah, yeah. Because sometimes it can be chaotic, but people have to feel that their voice is valid, and they have to feel that yes, everybody here knows that I have my place here and that my voice absolutely contributes.

Speaker 2 36:04

Yep. And you would be the perfect director, I feel, for that sort of environment.

Speaker 1 36:09

Yeah, and there's you know, there are times when you do kind of go, okay, somebody might want to share something, but it's not the right time. Or we're we're in the middle of working on something completely different. And so I've got also got an amazing staff of support workers. Yep. And um, they're dotted around. They all sing in the choir as well. They all have brilliant voices. But that's just, you know, another lucky amazing thing. And, you know, if somebody's struggling with something or having a moment, they will kind of they'll see that and they'll go and deal with that so that I can keep working on whatever we're working on. Because you don't, you as much as I've said everybody needs to be heard, you also can't hold 60 people to ransom with what you're having a feeling right at that moment. You know, it's so it's a bit it's tricky. We get there.

Speaker 2 37:11

Yeah, and you learn and you you would probably have lots of stories. Is there any times, any funny stories that you've had where it bombed and you you had to learn?

Tutti Arts And Inclusive Choir Work

Speaker 1 37:23

God, I've I mean, I've done, I've made some shocking comments which in that in hindsight have come out as like, you know, a really ableist comment where I've gone, oh, I and I've actually had to stop and go, I'm really sorry, everybody. What I I can't think of what it was right now, but what I just said was really ableist, and I've recognised that and I'm apologising. And can you all please forgive me? Yeah, you know, but and that's good too. Yeah, you have to acknowledge, you have to acknowledge it. We also continued to require through COVID. Right. And that was an amazing time. This is a there's a beautiful story. So a lot of our artists were able to use the NDIS to get a device and learn how to use that device and then participate. So we would try and do, you know, online rehearsals, and it was just really important to stay in touch with people and for them to feel like, yeah, I'm still I'm not isolated. Yeah. Because they were incredibly isolated, because a lot of them are really immunocompromised. So even if they um were really careful, it was really dangerous for them to be out in the community. Right. But yeah, we'd get little moments of, you know, somebody unmuting when you're, you know, because it's like, okay, remember everybody, you all have to be on mute when I'm talking. Otherwise, you know, it's really confusing for everybody. And then somebody would unmute and and you'd be like, um, oh, I won't use their real name. I was, you know, Roger, did you need to have a little solo there? Did you uh yes, Carol? Um, do you know? Can you find your mute button? Yes, I know where it is. Can you press it now, please? And then somebody else would unmute and they'd go, I can see you. Okay, hi, I can see you. Oh, you're on my TV, you know, and then you just go, okay, it's all just have a moment of saying hello to each other. Yeah. And I know the word joy gets bandied around a lot and it's got some weird connotations, but sometimes it's the only word that fits. Sure. There were some really beautiful, joyful moments where you just knew just people seeing their mates, even though it wasn't in person, it was really important. Especially at that time.

Speaker 2 39:45

Oh, yeah. Yeah, and sort of like the chaos ensuing as yeah, more and more people can. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 39:51

And then going, oh yeah, I I can't find my mute button. And it's like, really? Can you really not? Do you need to go and is someone there with you? Who's there with you who can help you find that button? Um, okay, I can find it. Um, but then when we're back in the, you know, back to now, I think something you do have to be careful of triggering people. Like there's some people who've got some, you know, some phobias or just some behaviors where if I say the wrong thing, I'll trigger something. And so I've learnt about, ah, yes, that's that's right. It's not going to go well for that person if I mention babies. Okay. Or for that other person, something different, or you know, it triggers a trauma response in them. And so, you know, there's there's a lot to think about. There is a lot.

Speaker 2 40:43

Yeah. Wow, it's it's incredibly special work and important work that you do, even though it's, you know, can feel chaotic or it can feel um spontaneous, or yeah, you have to very much be in the moment. It's such important work that you're doing. And that's what I think about a lot of community choir stuff is is great fun work, but it's so important as well. And great to hear all those stories. And I know that you're you've got so many skills and so many and things that you've learned along the way. I want to talk a little bit about, I know we've already touched on it as we've gone through, yeah, but talking about your personal style and your personality as a director. And in formal choral circles, there's a lot of focus on the director having external skills. So the skills of conducting and gesture and and all those sorts of things. But what I feel is as important is personality, the personality of the director and the style of the director, whether that be someone with a sense of humour, someone who's someone who's casual, or someone who's really organized, or someone who's I don't know, depends. Uh yeah, all sorts of things. But have you found that you've developed over time your own personal style? Definitely. And I think um it has always come from a place of you know, pretty casual, but still looking for an outcome. Definitely I like to use humour, but that can also be my nerves. Yep. You know, my nerves will kick in and I kind of go into kind of like a performance version of myself. So I'm a bit heightened. I like to make people laugh. But I also think that I've picked up a lot of conducting skills just from you know where I w what I've worked on in the past. I think I'm a pretty clear conductor.

Speaker 3 42:51

Yeah.

Speaker 42:51

I like to use a lot of eye contact. You know, you encourage people to get their heads up. In Lala Land, we've never been that great at memorising.

Speaker 2 43:04

Yep.

Speaker 43:04

But that's probably because I haven't structured it enough to get people to really practice lifting your head.

Speaker 2 43:14

I mean, it's very common for community choirs too, isn't it? Yeah. And I I think um having humour is also a really important part of choir singing because it it relaxes people and it brings their barriers down, especially if they're new or it's a new piece, or well, for whatever reasons that they're feeling or how they're feeling, having that humour element is.

Speaker 43:37

It's so important. It's it really is because yeah, you just want people to feel free to use their voice.

Speaker 2 43:43

Yeah. And how do you go about that when you yourself are not feeling particularly fun or happy, or maybe you've got a deadline to get a piece learnt or whatever? How do you go under those sorts of pressures?

Speaker 43:56

Yeah, that's a good one. Because I mean, even sometimes you'll start a rehearsal and you go, Oh God, this is the last thing I feel like doing today. But after you've been singing for even 30 minutes, the endorphins have kicked in and you're actually feeling better. Everybody goes away from a rehearsal feeling better than when they walked in. I defy you to give me an example where that has never happened. Absolutely. I mean, I'm sure there are, but. And then under stress times, uh, this is something that I've learnt. There was I had a particularly bad experience with a Tutti concert once, and I was really snippy. I was really stressed out. We didn't have enough time for the setup properly, you know, the doors needed to be open. And I I was snippy. And one of our staff members actually said it's totally fine to be snippy, but acknowledge it. And just try and say, recognize it in yourself and go, I'm feeling snippy. I'm sorry if I'm going to be short. I'm trying to get this done quickly. And that was such a big learning thing for me. Thank you, Claire.

Speaker 2 45:13

But why do you think that was powerful to actually acknowledge it?

Speaker 1 45:17

Well, because then people don't feel like you're like it's personal.

Speaker 2 45:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1 45:23

So it was about this situation is stressing me out because I haven't allowed enough time. I haven't asked so and so to be here early enough, or it's taken longer. Everything takes longer with Tutti Choir than you think it will. Yeah. Even just getting people on stage takes a long time. And you know, that's totally fine. People have got impairments. So yeah, it's not going to help if you're stressed. Yeah. Actually makes it worse. Yes. Yeah. So just kind of own it and go, hey everyone, I feel like I've run out of time. I'm feeling stressed. If I'm snippy, please don't take it personally.

Speaker 2 46:05

Yeah.

Speaker 1 46:06

And actually, as soon as you allow yourself to say that, it kind of goes away a little bit. That's really cool. You know, it looks better. Yeah.

Speaker 2 46:14

Because everyone gets like that.

Speaker 1 46:15

Yeah. And we're all there for the same outcome.

Speaker 2 46:18

Yeah. Yeah. I love these stories. I love hearing all the things that you've learned. And I know that you're continuing to learn, and we all are. But it's been really cool to hear a bit about your your journey through your midlife choirsis.

Speaker 1 46:32

Thanks. Thanks.

Speaker 2 46:33

Um Carol, there's a segment to this podcast that um we are introducing called what's it called again? Called, hang on.

Speaker 1 46:42

Called..?

Speaker 2 46:42

Oh yeah. The sing along segment.

Speaker 1 46:44

Uh uh. I love a sing-along.

Speaker 2 46:47

I mean, it's all about choir singing, so I figured we should definitely do a sing-along to wrap it all up. I wonder if you could introduce a song that you've picked for our sing-along today.

Director Style Stress And Sing-Along

Speaker 1 46:58

Okay, so I've picked a song called Enjoy Yourself. It was originally, I think, written by Guy Lombardo. He was like a 50s sort of Italian swing crooner, kind of in the Louis Prima style. This song was introduced to me by a beautiful performer, drag queen Candy Chambers, who I used to work with a lot as an MD. Um, she was a brilliant singer. Um, she introduced me to this song, and then I took it last year to La La Land, and it's one of our new favorites. And it goes a little like this. Oh one, two, oh one, two, Enjoy yourself. It's later than you think. Enjoy yourself while you're still in the pink. The years go by as quickly as a wink. Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself, it's later than you think. Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think. Enjoy yourself while you're still in the pink. The years go by as quickly as a wink. Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself. It's later than you think.

Speaker 2 48:38

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1 48:41

It's such a cool song. Doris Day did a cover of it. Um, I think Jules Holland's done a cover of it. I think in the 80s, The Specials, that scarband, The Specials, I think they did a cover of it.

Speaker 2 48:54

Oh, and now we've done it. We've done our own special cover of it.

Speaker 1 48:56

We've done it, yeah. Because it is later than you think.

Speaker 2 49:01

Yeah, that's right. Well, Carol, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 49:09

Ah, thanks, Kerrie. It's been really interesting to have a look back and you know, go, okay, yeah. Yeah. I did that.

Speaker 2 49:17

You've done a lot. Well, thank you. And uh, this is Midlife Choirsis, and um, we shall see you next time.

Speaker 1 49:24

All the best.

Speaker 2 49:25

Oh. Wow, that was the episode with Carol Young, um, talking about a whole heap of different experiences and lessons she's learnt along her varied career. And I just love how Carol mentioned the luck that she felt she had throughout her career. I think it's more than luck. I think it's also a position of feeling grateful and appreciative of the opportunities that have come her way. And it's a really wonderful way of looking at life. I also really loved how Carol talked about her intuition and how she's very much an intuitive choir leader or an intuitive musician. She doesn't like to be too bogged down by structure, and that has its own ups and downs, but she has leaned in to those particular aspects of her personality and her character, and that's opened up a whole heap of um opportunities for her, especially her wonderful work with Twitty Choir. So that's been just fantastic. I've loved hearing from Carol. Well, that's the end of our episode today. I hope you've enjoyed the show. If you have, I encourage you please to get the word out there and share it. You can share it via social media, or if you're really old school, you can share the link via email. Or you could even write it down and send it via carrier pigeon if you're really, really old school. But um, the best thing to do would be to subscribe to the show and um tell other people about it so that other people can hear the wonderful work that goes on. If you've got questions, thoughts, feedback, ideas, I'd love to hear from you from wherever you are listening. mlchoirsispodcast at gmail.com. So that's mlchoirispodcast at gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. I'm really excited about all the different people we're going to be having on the show over the next couple of months, and I look forward to bringing you along the journey. Thank you so much and see you soon.