The Supernatural Power of Jesus (faith, obedience, authority)

In this episode, we sit down with Sam Edwards, lead pastor of The Gathering at Faith Assembly in the Hudson Valley. Sam recounts formative supernatural moments, such as his grandmother praying after his hand was crushed and later feeling God’s presence in prayer and explains why people may not “feel” God due to hidden belief blockages like shame. They discuss reverence vs. relationship, discerning God’s voice through Scripture and other ways, and how obedience leads to greater authority without sliding into condemnation. The conversation covers repentance and confession, money as a tool, prosperity-gospel pitfalls, tithing as trust and stewardship, spiritual warfare and deliverance, and practical disciplines like intimacy with God for marketplace leadership.

00:00 Power Without God
02:00 Convicted to Center Jesus
02:42 Church Meets Mastermind
03:11 Meet Pastor Sam
04:37 Supernatural Encounters
07:02 When God Feels Distant
10:10 Reverence Versus Relationship
15:55 Called Into Ministry
19:58 Weight of Leadership
23:29 Giving It to God
28:56 Hearing God Clearly
33:15 Obedience and Authority
37:32 Grace Over Condemnation
45:03 Kingdom Assignment Now
46:14 Bold Faith in Business
47:04 Faith In Business
47:29 Golf Creator Witness
48:43 Marketplace Boldness
49:47 Christian Aesthetic Risks
52:21 Authenticity Standard
55:54 Owning Mistakes Well
56:56 Repentance And Confession
01:02:27 Money As A Tool
01:07:40 Prosperity Gospel Lines
01:12:30 Gods Timing And Trials
01:18:41 Tithing And Trust
01:25:53 Supernatural And Deliverance
01:31:55 Daily Intimacy Discipline
01:34:45 Prayer For Entrepreneurs

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I want to hear that that one moment where you realize that Jesus moves supernaturally.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

I don't really talk about this very much, but I was in my bed. Just felt like I needed to pray. I just felt an embrace.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

That was empowering people, but to what end? If it is divorced from God, if it's going to lead to death.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

This is more than just a religion. This is more than a set of beliefs.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

I think people are searching for, and they're not getting it in the American church right now. Too many Christians, I find, let the presence of God be dictated by their mood.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Centered around shame, around inadequacy in the spiritual realm. The enemy wants to use those things as openings.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

And I heard audibly, use your power in my name.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

It's the truth, it's what I experienced.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

The world that I come from of like mindset coaching and subconscious reprogramming, which had flirted on the woo-woo side of things, which is how this kind of came about. Um, I always talked about identity. Yeah. But it was always divorced from God, it was divorced from Jesus, which I realized that yes, I was empowering people, but to what end? Yeah. You know, to self, to pride, to materialism and things like that. And so I realized that that is all of the things that have been in the new age, or even not so new age, but kind of the fringe areas of personal development. There's too much self on the shelf. I heard Russell Brand put it that way. And if it is divorced from God, if it's divorced from Jesus, it's going to lead to death, right? No matter how good it feels now or how how confident you feel now. And so I I saw the truth myself, but wasn't willing to necessarily bring that to the public because here I was successful in this other area, which, you know, I and I don't think everybody has to be a pastor. Everybody had doesn't, you know, you're called sometimes to be the best mechanic or to be the best dentist, right? Um, but for me, because of the area of like mindset, that kind of flirts some spiritual things that I knew I had to be very cautious of. And God convicted me one time when I was in church three years ago, and uh during worship service, I just started crying, you know, yet just overcome by so something by the spirit. And I heard audibly, use your power in my name. And I know that's not my power, but you know, he was speaking to like an arrogant me at the time for me to listen. And uh basically he he was telling me that everything I was doing needed to be under the umbrella of of him and his authority, yeah, and stop leaving him out of it, look into the spiritual truth, look into the biblical technologies that are there, um, and keep Jesus at the center. So that's kind of where this came about, this creator and co brand podcast. We also have a uh group program every Wednesday. It's a free group for Christian entrepreneurs online. You know, I don't mean to, I'm not an authority as a pastor, but it's like church meets mastermind. Like it's my idea of like taking the things I like about church and the things I like about mastermind because I feel like when I go to church, there's not enough business and in like the marketplace, there's not enough Jesus, right? So that I'm trying to have like a place where we can all have all of it, right? Um, so, anyways, I'm here today. I'm really excited because you I'm I love interviewing everybody, but to have a pastor here who's an authority in the faith, in uh I know you've studied the Bible, you preach with authority every single week. Um, you're the lead pastor at uh the gathering at Faith Assembly is the name, right? In the in the Hudson Valley here. And you're also born and raised here in the Hudson Valley, right? Yeah. In upstate New York. Well, we know it's not upstate New York, but we call it.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

This is a long-standing argument that we've had, especially when you're talking to somebody in a different state. Where are you from? I'm from Poughkeepsie, where is that? You know, X amount of miles north of the city. Oh, upstate. And I'm like, if you look at a map and you see where we are compared to the rest of the real upstate, it's not upstate at all. But in all honesty, I don't mind the uh the separation.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

So what's your where what's your line when we talk about upstate New York? Where do you draw the line?

SPEAKER_00 3:59

I mean, probably Albany just becomes like upstate New York, but I've kind of embraced it.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yeah, we if we're talking to anybody outside of New York, we just say upstate here in Poughkeepsie. Welcome, Sam. I I appreciate you being here. I want this podcast specifically to embolden Christian entrepreneurs. I want people to share their testimonies. I believe in the power of that, that of hearing the testimonies of other people, of of experiencing that. I also want to talk about some of the supernatural things of our faith in Christianity, bit, you know, what I call spiritual technologies that we find in the Bible, how that relates to business, how we can bring Jesus into the marketplace. So I kind of want to start this this episode off, if you will. I want I want to hear first and foremost, like one moment in your life where you realize that Jesus moves supernaturally. Like I really want to, I want to hear that, that one moment where like you're convinced that Jesus is not just confined to the four church walls, yeah, but like moves tangibly in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

That's a great question and probably pretty tough to do. Uh, having grown up in church my whole life, grown up with Christian parents, grandparents. Like I was really fortunate to be taught the Bible since I was, you know, really young. And uh I remember stories, you know, that I remember probably a little bit vaguely at this point, but being a kid and getting my hand smashed in the door of a Lincoln Continental, like the big ones, big heavy doors, and pretty sure broke every you know bone in my hand. And so my grandma, who was a prayer warrior, came over, grabbed my hand, and just put her hand on it and prayed over it. And before we knew it, I was fine, running around playing, I was good to go. And so I grew up with stories like that where I felt that there was that intersection of the supernatural of God with our lives because we believed in it, because we received it. And so there were moments like that along along the way. But for me, I think coming into my teenage years and making a lot of the decisions that teenagers do and and going after different things, um, there came a point where I realized, no, this is more than just a religion. This is more than a set of beliefs. Uh, and so as I engaged in that relationship and intentionally pursued God, I just remember there was this specific night. I don't really talk about this very much, but I was in my bed and uh I just just felt like I needed to pray. And I just felt I an embrace, really, like I felt the presence of God. And uh if you talk about that in church circles, that's not an uncommon or unknown thing. But I think outside of that, to think about an embrace from God may seem a little bit out there, but it's the truth, it's what I experienced. And so every day that I wake up now and every opportunity that I have to speak about who Jesus is, I get to experience that same representation, manifestation, if you will, of who God is.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Beautiful. So from a young age, you kind of had this tangible, felt experience of God's presence. What would you say to people who don't feel that though? Because I do talk to a lot of Christians. I've been in seasons of my life where I'm praying, I'm diligent, I'm in the word, I'm going to church, I'm worshiping, and I don't feel the presence of God. And I know there's people that go very long seasons, especially even devout Christians. What do you say to those people who maybe feel like they're distant?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

I think it's a great question. And it's one that should be spoken about anytime we're talking about the presence of God. And what I have found is that there are times where people will chase after the feeling more than the reality of who God is. And that brings us to another extreme, which is really unhealthy. Uh, but for me, it comes down to places in our lives where we have what I would call a blockage, an obstruction. Because if we believe that God is who he says that he is, and if we believe that Jesus did everything needed to be done, then that part of it is already taken care of. We have us over here, and then we have this intersection between the two, which is our soul, our mind, our will, and our emotions. And a lot of times we adopt belief systems that we don't recognize, but belief systems about who God is, about who we are. Often it's centered around shame, around inadequacy and about not feeling good enough to receive what he's done for us. And anytime there's a belief system that combats against the truth that we believe, even conceptually, it's going to create a uh and a disconnection from that experience that we want to have with God. And that could be in so many different areas. But that's the primary. It doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. It means that there's a belief system that needs to be recognized and dealt with. And like I said, that could take place in so many different areas of our lives.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah, I think it brings up a good point, too, is too many Christians I find let the presence of God be dictated by their mood.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

That's so true. You know? Yeah, it's an emotional experience.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

It's emotional, and and it's tough because there's really beautiful aspects to the emotion of the experience, right? Whether it's through worship at church and you know, we have the lights and the stage and the the professional musicians basically who are creating a really felt experience, right? But Jesus is there regardless, even if the singer doesn't hit the note, even if the song doesn't land on the channel.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Someone would say, even that there's like certain notes that you can play in music that will evoke an emotional response. And I don't know how true that is. I'm sure that like you can make a business out of anything, including, you know, your pursuit of God. And so I'm sure that there are things that can be done and lighting and everything else. But like you said, Jesus is there. And I think when we change our mindset as to why we're approaching God in the first place, why we go to church, why we do the things that we do in any area of life, that perspective dictates a lot of the outcome that we're going to get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

And it reminds me of I I think I talked about this on a previous episode here, but I I know that God is speaking all the time, but two of the most tangible experiences in my life were one in in church and worship that I told you about. He said, Use your power in my name. And the second one is he gave me a vision, um, which at the time was surprising of going back to my Catholic church. And I couldn't understand why, because I was on fire for him. I was like, Oh, here I gave my life to Jesus in 2011. I'd been going to Calvary, which is a non-denominational church here in the Hudson Valley. I was always brought up Catholic. I went to Catholic school and it put a bad taste in my mouth. So when he gave me this vision to go back, I couldn't understand why. Long story short, I go back a couple weeks later, I just go to St. Marin de Poris down the road and I'm sitting there and the music sucks. Part, you know, like I'm just being honest. I'm just saying that, like, this is not Calvary, this is not the worship service I know. Um, and it's it's just very boring. Then there's a guest priest who gets up from some country that and he has a very thick accent. He's doing a sermon, and I can't understand a word you're saying. And I'm thinking myself, this sucks, right? But I look around and it's packed, and everybody's just staring intently at this priest. And the word that God kept putting in my mind was reverence. And it just kept reverence, right? It's like, why are you here? Reverence. And I find that some of the non-denominational Protestant churches are missing that reverence. And also the Catholics, Orthodox are missing the relationship. And if you see on social media now, it's all, oh, it's all relationship, no religion, but it's like it is a religion. It's it's Christianity, it's Jesus, and that comes with ritual and tradition, and it comes with um discipline and obedience, right? So what would you say, what would you say to that, those people who are like either all relationship or all religion, like, because there's that battle going on right now. So what can you speak to that?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

I I love what you're saying right now. I think that so much is lost when we lose sight of I would say the church tradition and the history that brought us to where we are. And this isn't something that I often focused on. I was much more of the it's relationship, it's not religion. And there is a lot of truth to that because it's not supposed to be ritualistic. It's not supposed to be check the box, go to church, okay. I paid my Christian dues for for this day or this month. But there is an element of recognizing the reverence, as you said, which is to understand that we don't come to God for what we can get out of it, that there is something that we're meant to bring, and the way that we see him matters. And he's not a genie, and he's not an ATM machine, and he's not the one that we wake up in the morning and we give him our order for the day, and he, you know, it fulfills it, that he is the God of the universe. And I often say this we have to know what we believe, and we have to believe what we know. It's not enough to think about God conceptually and think, okay, he's the one who created everything and gave his life for me, and now my life is revolves around me and he exists to serve me. Those two things are incompatible. And so I find myself more and more lately going back to some of the traditional roots of the church, going back and looking at Athanasius and looking back at some of the church fathers and seeing how they approached God in the early, you know, 80 years, um, and looking at even just some of the hymns. And I would agree, like if you go to some more denominational churches, the music is not what we expect. Uh, there's not even all the instruments, but sometimes it's the simple hymns that are actually, you know, really accurate when it comes to the theology behind them that can have the biggest impact. And I find myself going to those more and more in my own personal time than necessarily hitting the latest, you know, song that just came out on YouTube. So I think that what you're touching on is really important and just really what we're seeing in the world right now. We're seeing young men especially coming back to church, but coming back to church and coming back to some of the more traditional parts of faith because there is a recognition of the stability that's present in that. And if you can have the traditional faith with the what I would say the charismatic understanding of who God is and how he works and the Holy Spirit who is in action, and we we do see that in the Bible, you really have a beautiful foundation to build on, and then the expression that changes lives.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

I love that too. And it it made me think of the thought I had when I when I went back to Catholic Mass a couple times. And this is not for anybody listening, it's not to say that I'm I'm uh converting back to Catholicism. Um, but I think there's spiritual truth that transcends doctrine. I mean, not in and because we have different doctrines, right, between Protestants and Catholicism and even orthodoxy. But like I was sitting in Catholic Mass a separate time and I was like, this is kind of gangster. I was like, it's kind of gangster to be disciplined, to be a guy who's like fully devoted to Jesus. He knows who he is in in Christ, he knows whose he is, right? And he lives his life accordingly. That's kind of gangster, you know. And I want I want young men, especially young uh entrepreneurs, men and women, to step into that boldness in their faith and be like, yeah, I'm a Christian. Yeah, I I serve the creator of the universe, and that's that's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

It's a privilege to get to carry his name. I think, you know, you should talk to my brother at some point. He's all about the stained glass, the tradition, all those things. And I'm like, I think there is something really cool about that, and we should be able to profess our faith regardless of the environment that we find ourselves in. And it's gonna look different, right? Depending on where we are. But to be able to wear that with pride, I think is a really good thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

And you mentioned where where you are. It's like, yes, if you're if you're steeped in Catholicism, you're gonna need some more of that relationship talk, right? If you were brought up just Protestant or charismatic, you're gonna need some maybe more of that ritual and and discipline and reverence talk, you know. Um, and and speaking of being brought up, you you mentioned that you were always part of the church, right? And I actually think, you know, some people discredit that testimony of like the always Christian. I think that's sometimes more of a powerful testimony that God kept you around. So were you were you like always, did you always know you're gonna be a pastor? Was it a calling? Did you like really like, oh, I'm gonna be behind the pulpit when I get older? Like, talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

I certainly think that there is a calling when you go into ministry, no question about it. Um, but for me personally, I wouldn't say that it was something that I always knew. It was something that I was given an opportunity to engage with. And as I did it, I started to recognize the I think the internal desire and passion for it, which I would attribute for sure to God and to what he was doing, even when I didn't understand it. But as I mentioned, you know, I grew up in church, had quite a few years where, you know, and I would say quite a few, it felt like it probably was only like a year and a half. But I was like, I want to just try what my friends are doing. I want to be aware of what it looks like to go drink or to go smoke or whatever it is. And and so I would try some of those things. But what I found was in the middle of it, I couldn't get away from God in those moments. And so there I would be doing the things that I knew I shouldn't be doing, making an intentional choice to do them, and I'm praying in the middle of it and I'm recognizing like a conviction like God, this is not me. And so I got to a point where I realized this is not who I want to be. I'm surrounded by people who are hurt, who don't have what I have, who don't have a relationship with you, and I'm doing everything they're doing. I'm not helping them, I'm not adding any benefit to their lives. And so I want to be different. I want to be able to hang out with them still, but I want to actually carry a different uh standard for my own life. And so I started to, for a season, to kind of separate from those friends, um, to really devote myself to God and to to start to enact the things that I said that I believed. I would say 17, 18 years old.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Okay. And at this time, were you still were you considering um getting into ministry or or no?

SPEAKER_00 17:45

So the church I was in at that time, we had an amazing pastor, and uh, it was a woman actually, and uh I love her to this day, you know, fiery uh pastor from Australia. She's doing ministry in Egypt right now, but she saw something, I guess, and she gave me an opportunity to speak when I was in my early teen years, like even before that season, probably 15, 16. And I had no business preaching. I'm sure I had like a five-minute message that I just kind of read through really quick. And it wasn't something that I felt in that moment, like, oh, this is what I'm gonna do with my life. But I was a few years later, after kind of that recognizing, you know, this is not what I want to be doing anymore. I was visiting a friend out in Colorado and I'm going up the this the ski slope on the lift. And I remember just thinking to myself, I I really think that when I get back, I really want to preach. And I didn't know why. There wasn't any specific thing that led to it that I could tell. But I remember I got home and I was like, I want to have another opportunity to speak. And so I developed a message and I started to do that more often. There was an opportunity to serve in the youth group alongside a friend of mine. And so I was a youth pastor and I did that for close to 15 years. And if you want to figure out if you have a calling to ministry or not, you should be involved in youth ministry because those kids don't want to have anything to do with what you're talking about unless there's some games and some pizza and and something else. Um, but I got to do that for quite a long time and and invested in the lives of teenagers, you know, who I love to this day, uh, amazing young men and women, but going through real things, going through real challenges. Like I came up in my church upbringing without a lot of a lot of challenge, really. And we've got these 12, 13-year-old kids who are being abused, who are in bad relationships with they're 12 and 13, they're in relationships with 18, 19-year-olds. And I'm like, what is happening here? Uh so getting to speak, minister, invest in them on a personal level and really caring about them, I think is what developed that heart to be in ministry. And so I continued to do that and eventually the doors opened up and became the lead pastor in 2022. So probably a lot more like details along the way, the synopsis of it at least.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

So now you're the lead pastor and everything's just sunshine and rainbows, right? Oh, easiest thing ever.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Dealing with people is the easiest thing ever. Uh, no one complains, no one disagrees with your decisions. No, it's anytime you're dealing with people, it could be a challenge, but whose example am I meant to follow? It's Jesus, right? Jesus led the way and he didn't do it in an easy way. He was constantly leading people who had other mindsets and other belief systems and and trying to lead them in the way of the kingdom. And um, so I'm not relating myself to Jesus in any way on that level, but it's not always easy. And then you bring in the other aspects of the financial concerns and you know, just the time that we're living in and dealing with the things going on in the world, and you know, it can be really challenging, but there is nothing else that I'd rather do. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to do it. And uh, I really do count it as a huge blessing in my life to be able to, I think, be trusted in this role.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

When do you feel the weight of that the most?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Uh Monday morning.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Yeah. Afterwards? Yeah. Yeah. After the Sunday service. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

But this is what I've learned. I've learned that the times where I feel the weight the most, it's because I've placed the greatest reliance on myself to get it done, to figure it out, to come up with the perfect message, to deal with all of the challenges. Like I get to counsel people, I get to teach, I get to preach, I get to, you know, help with the business decisions. Ultimately, they come down to me. I have great people around me, thankfully. But when I'm relying on myself, when I'm relying on my own ability, I will get burnt out, I will get tired, I will get frustrated. And it's not to say that there isn't always going to be some level of like, this is real and this is hard, and I could admit that. But my real like strength is meant to come from God. And that's the same in any walk of life, in any career, in any pursuit, uh, when we're trusting God and He's called us. Into that place, he's the one that gives us strength. And so when I recognize that, it helps me snap out of the out of the funk real quick.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Is there anything though that keeps you up at night still?

SPEAKER_00 22:11

I'm a good sleeper, much to my wife's dismay. She doesn't sleep very well. And after kids, like she's aware, she'll hear, like, you know, our kid sneeze like across the house and just feel like something's wrong, which has led to me being woken up for some pretty interesting things, you know. But but I sleep well, thankfully. But the times that I do wake up, let's say it's three or four o'clock in the morning, all the things that I have processed through and I've said, okay, it's fine. We'll deal with this, we'll figure this out. They all come rushing in around three or four o'clock in the morning. And that's when you think about the the reason this person's upset with you and what's going on in this situation. And your heart breaks for somebody who's dealing with a sickness or an illness in their life, or a family member who's who's off and and you know, dealing with challenges. Those are the moments where it all comes flooding in. And those are the moments where you really need to rely on the grace of God more than anything else. And I'm sure that's the same for any business owner. You wake up in the middle of the night and it's like everything that you had the strength to deal with during the day, you're kind of caught off guard. And now you've got to, you know, deal with it on some level.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah, I mean, essentially your congregation or customers like synonymously to like a business. And you do have practical business um fires to put out, decisions to make. You know, we often hear uh give it to God. What does that mean to you? And how does that look practically for, let's say, for an entrepreneur or anybody for a Christian? Like when you say give it to God, what what does that even look like from a spiritual but also practical perspective?

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Yeah, I would say that for the congregation, I I look at them a lot more like family than I do customers, but I I definitely understand what you're saying. And there would be many that would say, you know, the church is a business because there is a business aspect to it for sure. Um, there are bills to be paid, you know, there are utility bills, there are insurances, there's a lot of things that you wouldn't necessarily think of when you pull into a church. And the bigger the church, the more likely you are to think, oh, well, they've got that part figured out. It's like, no, you know, when there's a snow day and nobody comes to church, like we feel it. We recognize the, you know, the difference in in the financial aspect of it. But uh to your question, uh I would say probably about a year ago, um, was dealing with some of the biggest challenges in my life in in ministry, some of them not just in ministry. I had lost my dad, you know, the end of the year before, was walking through some heavy stuff, I would say, emotionally, stress-wise with the church. And I felt that there were these three things that God was calling me to do in order to navigate through that. And that was apart from go talk to somebody, which was a really important element of it. But it was this posture of three things, and I would recommend this to anybody. Uh, when we come before God and we're dealing with our challenges, we're dealing with a question, maybe. We don't know what to do next, we don't know what decision to make. What I tend to think of is that my hands often are like this, like I'm pushing to make something happen, or I'm grabbing a hold of it to try to control it or to fix it. But in my relationship with God, I actually have the ability to do this, which is my hands can be open before him, which means anything that I'm holding, any decision that I'm making, relationship pain, uh struggles that I'm going through, I can actually give them to him. And like you said, give it to God. Well, what does that look like? Well, I can actually turn to him and say, God, I don't know what to do next. And what I realize is that when I trust in you, I'm not trusting in anybody else that is like, you know, another human being. I'm trusting in the God of the universe. And so when I turn to give this to you, I'm actually expecting that you're going to take it. And I see myself laying it down. And maybe it's helpful to see yourself laying it down at the foot of the cross where Jesus bore the weight of humanity on his back. So that's the first thing I do. And it sometimes it can feel symbolic, but that's the first step. The second step is that I want my heart to be in a place of expectancy. So not just am I giving something to God, but then I'm actually allowing my emotions, my thoughts, and my will, which we would call the soul, I'm bringing it into a place of expectation. It's not that I give something to God and then I walk away and I hope something changes. I shift to a place of expectation that he is going to do something about it because he loves me, because he's a good father, because he is trustworthy, because he can't lie. So when I believe the truth of what the Bible says about God, my heart shifts to a place of expectancy where I believe he's going to do something. Those two things are really important, but I would say that the third element that completes the cycle is where I'm engaged in the process. So hands open, heart expectant, and spirit engaged. Now, we could go into this a little bit too, but we're all spirit beings. Just really quick, you go to the book of Genesis. God creates man out of the dust of the earth. It says he breathes life into his nostrils. And that's the ruach. It's the spirit of God. And so there is the spirit within us that is meant to connect with God. If I give him something and I expect him to do something about it, and then I just go walk away, I'm gonna go do something that feels good, that's gonna make me feel better. I'm gonna turn to something, even if it's ice cream or if it's alcohol or if whatever it is, right? The thing that makes me feel good. And I'm kind of just gonna be like, all right, God, you take care of this. I'm gonna go live my life and please do something about it. When my spirit is engaged, though, what it looks like to me is I'm asking God, what do you want me to do in this? Like I've given it to you because I know you're the one who, the only one who's able to do something here. And I do expect it, but I'm also part of the process because very often I'm the one that got me into this situation, not him, right? So to be engaged in that means that I choose to follow in what he's calling me to do and I walk in a place of obedience, which can be forgiveness. It could be a place of recognizing that I've been doing this thing constantly and it's hurting my relationships, it's hurting my family. I've been uh, you know, neglecting things that really matter in my life. When we give him control in those areas, he has permission to speak to us. And when he speaks to us, there's something that we get to do in cooperation with him. That's what I do. Hands open. All right, God, I'm not gonna control this or manipulate it anymore. It's yours. I expect you to do something because I believe that you are who you say that you are. Now, what's that act of obedience? What can I do next to partner together with you?

SPEAKER_01 28:56

How does he speak to you then? How does he tell you what to do?

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Great question. So I would say that there are a few ways that we as human beings are meant to hear from God. Um, a lot of times we think about it as just being the audible voice of God. Like there's a story of the young boy Samuel in the Bible, and he speaks out loud and he hears an audible voice. But I always say this there are 6,000 languages spoken in the world. Do we think the God of the universe is gonna speak to us all in the same way, like, you know, like he does for everybody? Um, no, is my answer to that. I do believe that he can do anything he wants, he can speak to us audibly. Because we have different personalities and giftings, the way that we hear from God is gonna be unique to us. So I would say there's the primary way that I would recommend people to start to listen to God, and it's through scripture. This is the primary way because this is the foundation. If I go home and I pray and I ask God about something and I hear a voice, right? Which many people are like, is that my thoughts? Is that God? But it contradicts the truth of what I know to be true about him here, then I throw it away because this is the authority. This is the foundation of what I believe. So when we know who he is and we know his nature in scripture, it opens us up to be able to start to recognize how he speaks to us. I would say he speaks to us through the word, he speaks to us in dreams. So we could go to sleep at night, and we all know the dreams that we have that are crazy sometimes. Like I wouldn't say those are always God. That could be what you ate the night before, but he will speak to us in dreams. I've had dreams where I recognized that's a lot more vivid than I thought about it before. There's something unique about that, there's some symbolism there. And so I pay attention about it, like to what I heard, and then I pray about it. Uh, some people will be in a place where they're focusing on God and they see something. Like the imagination is a powerful thing. It can be used for evil, and it could also be something that God uses to speak to us. So we might be in a place of prayer and we're praying about something and we keep thinking about this thing, or we feel like we see this thing, we're like, what is going on? That's not what I'm even praying about. But God might be directing our attention to something that if we're to pay attention to it, we we can start to go into a place where we open up an opportunity for him to speak about something that maybe we weren't thinking about, but it directly applies to the situation that we're walking in. Uh, discernment. So some people just have a strong sense of discernment. They can go into a situation and discern. You can walk into a room, and and this will resonate with some people, and they feel something right away. They feel heaviness, they feel a division, they feel an anxiety. And maybe they weren't feeling it until they walked in that room and they think that that's them, but actually they're operating in a gift of discernment where God's showing, revealing something in that. I would say on some level, we could call it intuition, where there is a knowing, there is an awareness of what God's doing. Um, yeah. And there are times where in prayer, in what we would call worship and reading the word, where we will get a sense that God is speaking something. And I would always encourage you to write it down and find somebody who you have that's a trusted voice in your life and bring it to them and say, This is what I feel like God's saying. What do you think about this? This is why we have community. And then, of course, through scripture, like I said.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Yeah, he pointed out something that's been on my mind, uh, the idea of discernment, and something I've I've wept about, I've prayed about, and something that's been put on my heart is he wants us to trust our discernment because it's and correct me if I'm wrong, he's gonna speak to us most often through that discernment for most Christians. It's not he's not gonna give you every answer in a vivid dream or an audible voice. And if you can't trust your own discernment given to you by him, you're always gonna question what's happening, right? And so there is kind of a trust, not a trust in self from like a pride or ego perspective, but like knowing who you're serving in Jesus in in in in Christ Jesus in our Lord and Savior, and knowing the word, knowing scripture, but also you mentioned the word obedience. And what I found is my discernment is always clouded when I'm being disobedient. And I don't trust myself. Because if I can't trust myself in this area, how am I going to trust myself in this decision that I'm I'm trying to collaborate with God on, right? Um, so can you speak to can you speak to the importance of obedience? Because I I know even as a pastor, someone who's a teacher, you you're kind of held to a much higher standard, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Absolutely, biblically speaking, yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

But also I think that same power and authority and leadership that you have, uh a normal Christian can have or an entrepreneur can have.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

100%.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

So how does that obedience play? Like, does private obedience um kind of manifest in public authority? Like, talk to me about the play between obedience and authority and leadership.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh obedience to me, it is uh the gateway into the supernatural. Um, obedience to God is something that we see throughout scripture, and we see when it's followed, uh, that it leads to greater authority and trust. And when it's not, uh, even those that are in, you know, they start really well, they find themselves in a place where pride comes in and they trust themselves more. They walk in disobedience and everything they have gets taken away. Um, there's the parables that Jesus speaks about in the parable of the talents, where the the master comes and he gives them uh something of value, some kind of currency, a talent, and he says, This is what you have. I want you to go do something with it. Those that are faithful, uh, it depends on which gospel you're reading from and and which time he's telling this parable, but either he gives them more of what they had, more talents, takes it from those that were foolish and and disobedient. Um, and then the other parable, he actually says, I'm going to make you a ruler over X amount of cities. There's an authority that comes from it. And so we're all given something to steward. So, me as a pastor, you as a businessman, anybody who's listening, regardless of the walk, like there's nothing special about being in ministry in terms of authority outside of that we've submitted to Christ's authority. And we do, we we need to walk in obedience. If we're going to speak the word and teach, we are held to a different standard. Um, but for any of us, what's in your hands? What has God given you to be obedient in? Because when we're obedient with the small things, seemingly small things, it builds the muscle of being able to be obedient in the more difficult situations. And so sometimes we want to just neglect the small things. And I'm sure you would say this in any kind of business, right? If you don't pay attention to the details and the small things, things are going to fall apart because those things matter and they lead to the bigger, more notable, more forward-facing things. And so, uh, yes, to your question, you hit you hit the nail on the head. I believe that obedience to God leads to greater authority because there's a trust that he can have in us. Uh, not a trust in us necessarily, even though he gives us the gifts and the abilities. Let me rephrase that. He does have a trust in us, and he does have a trust in the gifts that he gives us. But that's proven out in how well we say yes to him, and then guard those yeses to him. It's easy to say yes in church, in worship. You could have had that thought, you know, about going to the Catholic Church and be like, oh, yeah, that's a good idea, and then never did anything with it. So to say yes in those moments is important, but then to be obedient to follow through with it matters. So I think, you know, as a father, if I say yes to my kids about something and I don't follow through on it, they're gonna remind me of it. They're gonna be like, hey, and um, you know, so I need to follow through on that. So my obedience matters. And then we look at God and we realize, all right, he's always faithful. If he says he's gonna do something, he's always gonna hold up his end of the bargain. So I get to respond to him in obedience, in gratitude and thankfulness.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

So would you does obedience get blessed?

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Yes. Yes, there is an obedience, there is a blessing that comes along with obedience. Uh, I would say anytime we're talking about blessing, you know, scripturally speaking, um, the blessing doesn't always result in like the monetary amount in your bank account. Um, it could, right? It depends on who you are and what you're doing. But yes, I do believe that obedience commands a blessing.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Yeah, this and this brings up kind of a difficult topic, is like it's almost like a spiritual OCD, it feels like sometimes. It's like, oh, if I don't do everything perfect or exactly, and we can't be perfect, we're only made righteous through Jesus, right? But it's the seeking of righteousness. Um, and I I know that he uses imperfect people.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Very much so.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

But what would you say to the people who are like constantly on edge about like, and obviously we need to hate our sin, but maybe people who are struggling with sin and feel like they're separated from God because of it or or God or they're they're not blessed because of it. Like, where do you where is the line between obedience and blessing and like I say, the spiritual OCD, if you will?

SPEAKER_00 38:13

I think Paul speaks to it most often when he speaks about what was in the law and then what now is in the new covenant. And he speaks about the law of Moses, and if we just really kind of simplify that, it was man's ability to keep up the requirements in order to obtain right standing before God. So if you do good, you're in a good place. If you don't, you're in a bad place. Um, the law was good because what it did was it showed us as humanity that we couldn't do it on our own. It revealed our own inability. Jesus comes as the perfect sacrifice. He comes and he lives a perfect life and he gives his life as God and man, and he pays the penalty that we could never pay on our own. So now when we come to Jesus, and this is a huge, it's a it's a vital understanding that we have to have, we come into a place of agreement and receiving what he's already done. And so, with that receiving of salvation, we always say salvation is a starting line. It's where we start from. Too many people receive Jesus, or they would say the teachings of Jesus, or they would call it a higher power, or whatever it is. But when you truly receive Jesus, you realize, oh, I have a new identity that's now in Christ. And I don't have to work to achieve that right standing. I'm not working to earn my way into salvation. Jesus paid the price. So now I receive that, and my starting place is the cross. My starting place is what he's done, which means that my responsibility now is not to earn my salvation, it's to enter into transformation as a follower of Jesus. So that's not up to my own ability, like the law. It's not up to my own strength, my own know-how. It's now based off of my ability to trust in what he's already done. And that is such a big gift. That is such a beautiful gift. We call that grace. That's the grace of God that now empowers me to be able to change. So before I had to change in order for Jesus to accept me. Now that I receive Jesus, he gives me the ability to change. And I think that that shift in thinking is so important because when we operate out of grace, we operate out of supernatural strength, which gives us the ability to follow him. He's so good, he calls us to follow him. He then gives us the ability to follow him, and then he empowers us to live our lives to look more like him. And so that place of kind of like, I have to do enough to earn my way into God's good graces, that's condemnation. That's what the enemy uses to disconnect us from God. And Jesus is so much better than that.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Yeah. Sometimes it feels like there's a fine line between condemnation and conviction, though.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yeah. Yeah. Because if you keep doing the same things and you just make excuses for it, you're going to have the natural byproduct of that, the natural consequences of that. It's going to produce more shame. Shame, I mentioned it a couple of times. Shame, in terms of a definition, is not that I did something wrong, it's that something is wrong with me. And if I think something is wrong with me, if I believe that, then the byproduct of my life is always going to be based out of shame. But conviction, which is remorse, godly repentance, is I did something wrong. We ask for forgiveness, but then we ask for God's grace to be able to help us walk out the new reality. And so shame is something that the enemy uses in our life to keep throwing things in our face. Because the devil's, he's smart. He's like, hey, I can't actually physically attack you, but if I can get you to believe something about yourself or God that's not true, that's the programming that you're going to operate out of. And your life is now going to be a byproduct of that broken belief system. Yeah, that's that thing that brings us back into self-punishment often. Um, yeah, we could go down that road. There's a lot that's behind that.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Before we do, is there a difference between the blessing of salvation in heaven and the blessings that we experience on this side of heaven? Meaning, yes, Jesus died for us, rose, conquered, conquered death, covered us. We're seen as righteous. And we have salvation because of that, not because of anything we can do. So no man can boast. But then in the same breath, we talk about the power of obedience equating to blessing on earth here. So do you get what I'm saying? Is there a difference between okay, salvation secured, and also we do have to exercise obedience for that blessing? Do you 100%?

SPEAKER_00 42:53

I totally I think I get what you're saying. And and what I would respond is salvation is for our eternal salvation. So a lot of people will get saved and then they'll be like, okay, I'm gonna go live my life now. I I've got my my eternal ticket is punched, I'm going to heaven. And that to me is a shame if that's where we think it starts. Because Jesus said that he had a kingdom that he was bringing. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. And the kingdom is any place where the king has influence, it's his domain. Then he ascends back to heaven, he gives us the Holy Spirit, and he tells us to be his witnesses, which that word witness is actually the Greek word for martyr, which means we believe it so much that we're willing to die for it. But he says, You're gonna be my witnesses. So he entrusts us to be the ones that carry the message of the kingdom. Is he talking about for eternity in heaven? Yeah, there is a reality in heaven, but it starts now. We have to live out the reality of what it means to be in the kingdom of heaven now here on earth, which is in the marketplace, it is in business. It's in government, it's in politics, it's in education, it's in family. Yes, of course, it's in church. But if we wait until we get to heaven to start living those things out, we've completely missed our assignment here on earth. And so it has to impact now, regardless of what we're doing for our career, regardless of, you know, what our family affiliation is, what with what our political ideation is, like we have to be willing to recognize that I'm here for a reason. And God wants to work in me and through me wherever He's placed me. So that salvation, it is for now. And there are kingdom principles that are meant for here on this earth that will produce an eternal reality in heaven. If you read Romans 8:18, 2 Corinthians 4.17, it talks about the challenges of earth, the things that we go through in earth that are producing an eternal outcome. So if that was the case, right, it we we better start now if we want to walk in a greater reality when we leave this earth.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

You mentioned assignment and kingdom principles. Do you think that entrepreneurs are called in the same way that you, as a pastor, were called to be a pastor or an evangelist is called to be an evangelist?

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Yeah, I would say that any of the fivefold gifts, which is the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher, our calling is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. That's what that's what Paul says. So our responsibility is to equip the church, to equip followers of Jesus. Spiritually speaking, yes, but also to equip them to walk in their, as we said, assignment, which means that if you're called to be in the business sector, then that's your calling. And that's what you are called to live up to. And that's just as important as me following my calling. So I would say yes. So recognizing that there is something, and we don't want to necessarily pigeonhole into it, like you can only do one thing, right? Because that can look like a lot. I know a lot of pastors that are bivocational. They have careers and they're pastors. And if you're called to that, I think that's beautiful. Yes, I would say that recognizing that there is a significance about what you do and what you're called to do is really important.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Yeah, I think because the conversation comes up about okay, I'm a Christian entrepreneur. I want to be bold in my faith. I want to bring Jesus into the marketplace, but how? And I I, you know, I've had, you know, I've had the opportunity to work with some like high-level influencers, celebrities, actors, professional athletes who've asked me some of these questions. It's like, oh, I believe in Jesus, but I'm kind of scared to talk about it. And I, you know, I heard uh Wesley Huff. You listen to that, Wesley Huff? And actually, uh, shout out to the he was on the Sean Ryan podcast. He talked about the Museum of the Bible having the Dead Sea Scrolls. I went there a week ago, got to see some of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Uh, yeah, I really want to go.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

And I love Wes Huff.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Super cool. He was talking about the idea of a fifth gospel and saying that we are the fifth gospel. Our lives should be uh the fifth gospel. And I think that's how we as entrepreneurs who are Christians can look at it as we are the fifth gospel and how we live our lives, how we um run our businesses, how we interact with our customers and our clients is a testimony, right? Does that mean that we have to always post content or Bible verses or things like that? I don't I don't think so. What would so what I guess my question for you specifically is how do Christians bring Jesus into the marketplace?

SPEAKER_00 47:29

I was watching a podcast recently. Uh I got really into golf a couple of years ago. Terrible idea. Um, but I I love it and hate it simultaneously. So I follow a lot of content creators when it comes to golf, Grant Horvat being one of them, uh, the uh the Brian Bros. Um, like I always noticed that there was something unique about the content that they produced and that they weren't overtly talking about their faith always. I would say Grant Horvat a little bit more. Um, but there was something different about the content that they produced. There was something about, if I could say it this way, that they carried, which they're out there having fun, they're playing golf, they're doing it on a high level, but come to find out that they're all Christians. And so I was listening to a podcast the other day. They were talking about their faith, the influence that it has in what they're doing. And they're not out there overtly, you know, presenting the gospel every time they play golf, but they're carrying something when they do. And in being obedient to this is a hobby for most of us, but like it's their career, it gives them opportunities and openings to be able to present their faith in a way that wouldn't have been possible outside of that. And they're creating content that's, you know, something that a whole family could watch, which is beautiful as well. So knowing our identity is critical when we're going into any workplace, any workspace. Um, there are places where you're not allowed to talk about your faith. I'm aware of that. My personality is a little bit more like, so what? I'm gonna do it anyway. But I get that that's not everybody's personality. Not everybody is built that way. Um, and so maybe that's just in the relationships that you build as a part of being an employee of wherever that is. Maybe you're in a position of influence and you can set godly principles to be the standards of your business. You can go to the book of Proverbs and you can you can see the godly principles that are laid out in this, and then you could start to apply them in what you're doing. But I would say that we should all desire to burn in our faith to the point where it does come out of us, even if we're not using words. What's the quote? It's uh preach the gospel by any means necessary, and if if necessary, use words. I like that sometimes, I like that often, but we should also be bold in our faith.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Yeah, it reminds me of this this whole Christian aesthetic thing that's happening right now, which I think is a good impact.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

What is that?

SPEAKER_01 49:54

We see you know, we see all these Christian clothing brands, we see people using in their not just clothing and content, but like there's and it's great. There's like a revival of like especially like millennial millennial Christians on social media and and even younger gen, what is it, Gen Z below us, right? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

I'm not a youth pastor anymore, so I've lost the generation.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

But I I I think about like just being an example, and the reason I bring up this Christian aesthetic is because I think it's it can be dangerous, which is a little this is a little controversial, but God kind of put this on my heart because I have this Christian clothing that I wear sometimes and it says like I don't know, trust God, bro, or something. I don't I don't know, you know, I've all different right.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

I'm glad I didn't wear mine today. I was about to be convicted.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

No, well, I I I think people should be convicted because because I realized I wore it too flippantly. And now I pray over my if I'm gonna wear a piece of clothing that says anything about God, I pray over it and like and I pray about my day. Not that I don't pray about my day anyways, but like specific, because I realized I was walking my dog one time uh actually at a rest area while I was traveling, and she's a great dog. She's a golden doodle, she's so smart, so obedient, right? But for some reason, we were walking into the rest area and she was like freaking out. She wasn't good on the leash, and this guy comes by and he's like, Oh, those those dogs must be crazy, right? And like in that moment, I realized like this this one moment that my dog had where she was being disobedient and acting out, really had an impact on this person who he might never get a golden do the golden doodle, even though they might be the best dog ever. And I'm thinking of myself as a Christian. If I'm wearing one of those things and I get into a road rage moment, that's why I don't have a Jesus fish on my on my car. Yeah, exactly. Or like if you're a guy and you're at the gym and you you're chat, you're undressing a girl at the gym and you're wearing that, or you're you're someone gossiping and you're wearing that, or you're whatever. There's a higher standard, I think, when you put that that clothing on. And I think it goes back to this idea of being an example, living the gospel, not just speaking it. So what what comes up for you when you think when I when I talk about that? Because this is something I think people, like I said, they I think they wear the clothing too flippantly. And I I was just I was just somewhere recently, some guy was wearing a um uh a Yahweh shirt and he had a trust God hat on, and he was drunk and he was like cursing. And like, you know, I I wish I had been more bold and like said something to him, but you know, it just didn't feel like my place at the time. But I see that too often, and I've seen it myself too. Not I I think I don't I don't get drunk anymore, but I've seen that happen. So, what would you say to those people who are maybe wearing wearing those that clothing and not living?

SPEAKER_00 52:22

I think that's such a great uh point to be made. There needs to be a congruency with who we are and then what we put on the outside. And it definitely applies to our clothing. And I say that funnily, like I don't put like a Jesus bumper sticker on because like if I'm driving not well, like I don't want to reflect back on my faith that way. But when we are outwardly expressing our faith in Jesus, there is a standard. And yes, that should be when we're wearing the clothes and it should be when we're not, because it should start on the inside. Of course. There should be a reality that we walk in that whether we're in church or we're out with our friends, whether we're in the workplace or we're in our quiet time with God, that there is a foundation that we're building on, which is the truth. And we may not start there, and that's okay. Like we don't always have to start at level 10 in Christianity. We we shouldn't come to God and think that we have to be a saint day one in terms of like what we would think about when we talk about saints. Um, but as we grow closer to God and we see who He is, it's meant to develop something inside of us, which is authenticity. And authenticity is necessary because you know the Lord. You're not gonna think about, you know, oh, I wonder if what Christianity is all about because that guy was wearing Christian clothing and getting drunk. But other people will. That is that is a lack of authenticity. And if that's the case, then being part of a church or being part of faith in Jesus is no different than a gym membership. It's no different than a Sam's Club membership. Like you're just part of something, but it doesn't change you. Christianity is meant to be transformative. Jesus said, if you follow me, deny yourself. Lay down your life, pick up the cross, and follow me. Jesus was the greatest, most loving, most come to me person that's ever lived. He forgave the unforgivable, he walked with the people that nobody else wanted to spend time with. That's how he is towards us as well. But he never lowers his standard for us either. And so he says, when you follow me, and many were following him, he would say something and they would completely leave him because they didn't understand. He wouldn't go back and chase them because he wouldn't lower the standard. The standard was righteousness, but then he gave us the ability to reach that level through our faith in him. So full circle, I 100% agree with you. Um, if you're going to be posting about Jesus on social media next to your scantily cloud pictures or whatever it is, you better watch what you're doing because you're not representing yourself anymore. You're representing Jesus. And so be aware of that. It's the the aesthetic is great. I love seeing Jesus everywhere. I love things like the chosen, amazing TV show. I love seeing how uh people are walking in their assignments and bringing God through media and entertainment. Beautiful. But recognize that there is a standard that we're called to and we do that, and we need to walk in the authenticity because the world needs authenticity. There's too much fake out there, and what we're carrying is the real truth. So we got to believe that.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Yeah, and I I that's that's the dangerous part, I think, is the aesthetic um overshadowing the seriousness of our faith. You know, the reverence, the obedience, you know, and what's the verse where you know it's better to be cast into the sea with a millstone around your neck than lead one of his children astray? And you may be the only person or only example of the gospel that someone ever experiences, you know. And that that was like the story with my dog. That that guy may have never had an up close experience with a golden doodle, and they're great dogs, but he may never get a golden doodle now, you know. And so I I never want to be that guy that someone saw me as a bad example of of a Christian.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

And we got to be willing to to fess up and to to own our mistakes too, because perfection is not part of the agreement. So, okay, I messed up, I did something I wasn't supposed to do. Don't go into the shame and condemnation. Take ownership of it. Like, hey, I messed up, I'm human, I'm not gonna make excuses for it. But like if we know somebody in our life, especially if we say we believe in Jesus and we did something that wasn't in alignment or agreement with what that looks like, go take ownership of it. Hey, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that. Like, that's that's not who I want to be. And showing that humility, I think reflects Jesus, you know, on a on the highest level.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

So speaking of that, uh can like brings to mind confession and repentance. Um you know, we talked a little bit about doctrine, the difference between doctrines before. Talk to me about, and and I actually look at repentance as what I call spiritual technology, right? Uh obviously it's a it's a turning away from, it's not just a hey, I'm sorry, right? Um, it's I think it's an active process of of the transforming of your mind away from sin. Um, but there's also the act of confession. Um, we see the confessing to one another, things like that. What would you say, uh, practically speaking, it should look like for someone to live out confession and repentance?

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Yeah, I I think you you definitely defined it well in the turning away from. And that is a huge part of it because it's a difference from I'm sorry, you know, and then you go do it again. Um, the Greek word means to change the way that we think. So it starts with a recognition of I did wrong. There was something that I was walking in that I wasn't supposed to, I shouldn't have. It was detrimental to me or somebody else. Now I have to go back and find out why I operated in that mindset in the first place. Like what caused me to do that thing? Because I could recognize I did wrong and repent for it and be genuine. I don't want to do that again. But unless I go back and change the belief system that led me there, unless I recognize the deficit maybe that was present in my life. Like I felt like I was lacking something. So I did this to feel better about myself. If we don't go back and identify those things, then we're not actually turning away from it. We're recognizing it as something bad, but then we're inevitably gonna walk into it again or something like it because we haven't dealt with the root cause of it. And so repentance is okay, I did wrong. Why? What's the belief system? Now I'm gonna turn away from that way of thinking so that I don't end up here again. And so active repentance is a little bit deeper than just even genuine, I'm sorry. It's oh, there's more at play here, and there's more going on inside of me than I often realize. So I have to take the time in prayer, in counseling. I'm I'm a proponent of counseling when it's biblical, when it's someone who knows knows the truth, because counseling otherwise can just be talk about my problems on loop, and you know. Um so I would say that going to talk to somebody and and spending that time with God is so important because we start to realize why I did what I did, and then we have an opportunity to walk out of it because I recognize what was wrong. Now I need to replace the lie that I was believing with truth and now live from that reality.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

So does confession precede repentance?

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Yeah, I think confession is a really important part of it just because it brings us to a place of humility, it brings us to a place of like what we speak has a lot of power. And um, when something is hidden, it has the most ability to be detrimental and to create uh other problems. Like if mold's in the wall, I use this analogy a lot, we don't see it, but it's gonna create health effects. So if something's in the dark, it still has power. We just haven't recognized it. Confession is shining the light on that thing so that it can be dealt with.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

So can can confession just be between you and God?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

I would say yes. Um, often we see in the Psalms as David is pouring out his heart, there is confession uh between himself and God. So I would say that's actually the primary way that I would look at confession. And it's also a healthy rhythm to have accountability in your life where you can speak to friends and you can build each other up through your confession and through your honesty and your vulnerability, not in front of everybody necessarily. Like I don't think you should, if you hurt people, go to the people that you hurt, right? Um, but there should be relationships that we have in our lives with truth tellers, people that know us that we can talk to and we can be able to confess those things and walk together in in repentance.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

So the perpetrator should always confess to the victim, you think?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

I would say I just don't like to make absolute statements without thinking through them. I would lean towards absolutely yes, though. If we've hurt somebody, we should go rectify that. We should go and address what we did and do our best to bring healing and restoration to that relationship. The only reason I laugh about this is because I've had conversations with uh individuals and they're like, I went to that person and I talked about them to this person and this person, this person, and I told them all the things that I said, and it just seemed like it became more detrimental to tear this person down and to tell them all those things. Like in those situations, it would probably suffice to say, listen, I said some things about you that were not kind. This was the reason. I want to repent to you. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that. This is why I think that I did it, and I'm doing my best to improve in that area. Sometimes that is sufficient.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

So the specificity of the confession sometimes can overdo it because it's more detrimental than the act of confession itself.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

To answer your first question, yes, there should always be repentance, and then using some wisdom on how you carry it out, I would say would be an important element of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:27

All right, let's talk about money now, because this is a big topic.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

This is a big topic for churches, it's a big topic for Christians in general, especially Christian entrepreneurs. You know, I've dealt with a lot of people with limiting beliefs and things around money, finances, uh, self, whatever, the whole the whole gamut of limiting beliefs and fears that people might have subconsciously. Um, a lot of it comes up around money. Um, I see this in uh the marketplace, sales professionals, entrepreneurs. Um and one of those beliefs that comes up is that money is evil. We know that the Bible says it's uh the love of money is the root of all evil. I first look at Judas, right? I'm like, that guy who walked and talked with Jesus was willing to give him up for 30 pieces of silver.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

Likely performed miracles in his name.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:10

Yeah, was willing to give Jesus up for 30 pieces of silver or whatever the the equation was.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

And it wasn't even a lot in that in that day.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

It wasn't a lot. I think if I look back, it was what they paid for a slave in the old testament or something similar, an amount. If he was willing to do that, are we supposed to trust ourselves more than than that, right? And I know obviously we have the Holy Spirit now, we're saved by Jesus, but I I think it's it's important to be very cautious around money because it can it can breed materialism, it can breed ego. Um, what would you say to the people who one might think money is evil, and how how do we even approach money as a Christian?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

Money is a tool uh in and of itself, it is neither good nor evil, right? As you said, it's the love of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself. Money can be used one day for something terrible, and that same piece of currency can be used to be able to feed the hungry. So it's how it's being used. I would say that money is the magnifying glass that magnifies what's already going on in your life. Um, if you're whole, if you have an understanding of who you are, uh if you have a respect for it, then it's gonna magnify your belief system in a good way. If you feel like you don't have enough, if there is never enough, if you're in a place of deficit where you feel like money is gonna define you, or what clothes you're gonna wear, what car you're gonna drive is the thing that's gonna give you that definition of wealth or I would say value, then money is going to magnify that deficit, and it's never going to be enough. You will constantly try to fill in that deficit with money. And so, uh, as we've said on multiple things, it comes down to how we see ourselves, how we see God, and what we believe to be true. And a lot of people are walking around with deficits that they don't know are there from their childhood, from their parents, from their upbringing, where they believe that they're not good enough. And the crazy thing that happens is we make decisions as children to make sense of things in our lives. Something bad happens, I'm seven or eight years old, and I'm like, oh, that's why that happened. Now, it's not logical, really. It's not out of a fully formed brain, even, but I don't often go back and check to see if I still believe what I told myself as a seven or eight-year-old. And so if I believe as a seven or eight-year-old because I got in trouble for something, or my mom or my dad let me down, or something terrible happened in my life, if I don't go back and recognize what I started to believe out of that, I'm gonna walk around with a broken sense of who I am. And so my bucket is always going to be empty, or there's gonna be holes in it, might be a better analogy, because I can fill it up to the Top and feel like this is the thing that's going to make me happy. And then before long, I'm like, oh, I still feel the same way that I did before. I must need more money. I must need more recognition. I must need more followers, whatever that looks like for you. And for some people, it's not money. I need more muscles. I need, you know, I need a better career or a position or a title on my door, my business card. Whatever we use to define us outside of the reality of who God says that we are is going to result in feeling empty. And so money is the most notable of all the things that we talked about. And you'll see people end up in really bad financial positions often because they don't have a proper understanding of who they are and their value. And even those that could be really successful, they're sacrificing important parts of their life to keep getting more and more and more. And they have enough, but it never feels like enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

And you mentioned the par uh the parable of the talents before, you know, I believe trust is like this spiritual currency. Um, and if you can't trust yourself with money, or you're using money unintentionally, or you're greedy or selfish, you're gonna be in a constant, perpetual struggle with your finances. Um, you know, I'm a big advocate for the fact that you can either master your money or money's gonna master you. And we're only supposed to have one master, first of all. And I and I see broke Christians who are mastered by their money far more than the millionaire Christians because they're living paycheck to paycheck. They're wondering where they're gonna get the money for their electric bill. Who's thinking about money more? They are, you know. So what do you think, you know, this idea of like Christian millionaire? Because this is it's like I see this in like the Christian business TikTok scene, right? It's like this whole money mindset, how Christians can can be blessed financially. You know, we hear about the Joel Orsteins and and the uh prosperity gospel. Where do we draw the lines? Because I I see when I look at the Bible, I see God bless people with gold and silver and milk and honey and resources and land and livestock, which were original currencies. And then, you know, I see, you know, Jesus came so that we could have life and have it more abundantly. Are we supposed to read between the lines or is that literal, meaning like abundantly, spiritually and financially and uh physically, right? So like speak speak to that. Like like where where does money actually fall into the equation as a Christian? Should we pursue being millionaires and having wealth for generations to come and building up for our children's children? Like, like, where do we draw the line between prosperity and practical and I think you're talking about godly principles there?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

Yeah, I think that there are elements of that that are really good. Um, but I would say that where the prosperity gospel missed it is on a couple of things, is that we felt like following Jesus is going to be some kind of golden ticket to not ever having to worry about finances or you know, things in our lives that, you know, are money driven. And that just doesn't seem to be the case. Um, I would say that my focus has started to shift. First of all, again, money, not a bad thing. Having money and being able to have wealth that we can pass down to our kids, I think that's beautiful when they learn responsibility. Having wealth that we could use to build the kingdom, amazing. Like the the statistic is that I think three to five percent of Christians tithe into their church. That's a whole nother conversation about tithing as a biblical person. That's my next question. So we'll talk about that. So if 50% of Christians tithe, if 80% of Christians tithe, that is not so that the church could build a bigger building and get more smoke machines and everything else. And so like everybody could just walk into this grandiose place. It's so that we're able to further expand the message of the gospel, reach more people, take care of the community, be able to invest in places where our church has a food pantry, we have a community outreach that we are engaging in. Like those kind of things matter. But unfortunately, what happens is that there is a lack of trust in giving money to the church or to God. And so then the church has to make decisions about paying for the light bills and you know, reaching the community. So I you can tell I took a little bit of a detour there mentally as a pastor. Um, I believe that there are individuals who are gifted in the ability to create and generate wealth. I don't think everybody has that. And that's okay. The prosperity gospel probably presented it as everybody can become a millionaire, everybody can make all this money. And the reality is that some people are gifted in those areas and some people aren't. And regardless of whether we've made a million dollars or multiple millions of dollars, we have to have gratitude and a sense of being able to be content with what we have. And I think it's more about what we did to earn our way into that position than the amount that we have in our bank account. If we are neglecting the things that matter in our life in pursuit of money that defines us, then whether it's $1,000 or $100,000 or $100 million, that's wrong because we we neglected what we were called to do. We talked about obedience. On some level, we're walking in disobedience. But if I have started a business, if I've invested wisely, if I've created a solution for a problem, and that results in money coming in, and I have a kingdom mindset that, okay, I'm a steward of this, I can't take it with me, but I can actually help people. I can make sure my family's okay, I can take care of people, I could give into the church, I can take care of missions. That's beautiful. So the dollar amount to me doesn't matter. It's being obedient to who you are. And I think when you have the proper identity, it gives you the ability to create and to generate wealth. I just always think some people are going to do it better than others, and that's okay. It's not participation trophies, right? Some people are just gifted in that area, and I might be gifted in other areas, and that's great. Um, but ultimately, God's not going to leave us in a place where we're in a deficit. The word does say that he will supply all of our needs according to his riches and glory, and that when we seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, he takes care of everything else. So I guess that's my long answer to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

I feel and believe that there's been times in my life that God kept me broke to keep me close. And I and I've seen that in multiple areas of my life where there has been a deficit, not because he's not sustaining or not providing, um, but because those were the only times I went to him.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:50

You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

And I've realized that I was I was shooting myself in the foot by only going to God when when I needed something, you know, or what, you know. And uh do you do you think there's any merit to that? Like where there'll be seasons of of brokenness and not just financially, but maybe spiritually, in an effort to to keep a believer close.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

I think, as we talked about when it comes to trust, that the the trust element with God is that he puts something in our hands and we walk in obedience, and there is that reality in which he's able to bless us more in that area. I do believe also, and the book of Proverbs says that it's the glory of God to conceal a matter and it's the glory of kings to be able to seek it out. And what I've heard taught on this, and I really think it's it's very valuable, is that as a good father, God doesn't want to give us something that's gonna cause us to self-destruct. He wants to give us the ability to develop the character, to develop the foundational truth in who he is, so that when he gives something to us, right, it's concealed, not hidden from us, hidden for us. But when we discover that, we're able to handle it on a way that is, you know, really beautiful. And I think that's the way that I look at it with God. He's a good father. Many Christians pray, can I just win the lottery? I'll be really good with it. I promise. I'll do the best things with it, God. And God's like, if you won the lottery, you would destroy yourself like immediately. So I'm not saying that's why people win the lottery or don't, but that concept is true, is that God wants to develop the man before he actually uh gives us what we need in terms of gifting or finances or anything like that, because um his goal is long-term fruit, not just that we would like burn bright, make all this money. We could do some good things with it, but it destroys us, but that we're prepared to do something with it, you know, for the long run.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:50

And so, I mean, clearly he does use trials and tribulations, right? And it says to counter all his joy because of that, builds character and patience, right? Um, you know, I think about I'm not a father yet, God willing. I'll have children someday. I know you have you have two, right? Right? How old are they?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

Six and seven. I imagine and wait, wait, wait, seven and eight. They would kill me if I if I got that wrong. One boy and one girl, one boy and one girl.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

I imagine if they came to you, right? And they're like, Daddy, I want to eat Skittles for breakfast, and you tell them no, but they keep going. Eventually, you might be like, All right, eat Skittles for breakfast every day. And they do that. They're eventually gonna start feeling sick. They're like, I don't want to do this. This is bad for me. Do you think God works like that sometimes? Like he just sometimes will give us everything we want, even though it's not the best thing, but it's teaching us, it's building that that character, and that's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:35

Um, I would say more often than not, I don't think that's how God operates. Um, but he will use every opportunity, and sometimes we'll push through all of the stop signs and all the roadblocks to get what we want, and we will get them because we have free will, and then we will learn the lesson. And God's like, I will use that situation to be able to grow you out of it. And it is sometimes the more like that's where we're the most uh receptive to what he wants to do. But we read in in the old testament in the book of Numbers, there's uh a prophet and very interesting story, but his name is Balaam, and uh a foreign king says, Will you come and curse the people of Israel? And he's like, I can't do that. But he goes to God and he asks the question anyway, God, can I go curse the people of Israel? And God's like, No. So he sends them away. They come back, they offer more money, and they're like, Can you curse them for more money? And he's like, He's like, No, but let me go ask God anyway. I think he really wanted to get this money. I think he really was like, uh, this could be a really good payout for me. And I get influence with this king. This sounds like a good deal. So it seems like eventually God gives him permission to go and to do it. He goes, Okay, just go with him. And it says, as soon as he goes, God's mad at him, and an angel of the Lord stands in the way to stop him from going. Now, God didn't change his mind, but Balaam he kept coming. Can I go do this thing? Can I go do this thing? And eventually God said go. It doesn't mean it was God's will. It doesn't mean that he sent him, it just means that he allowed him to go do it. And eventually the end of the story is that Balaam ends up being killed because he has introduced uh compromise into the nation of Israel. So we can get what we want, and sometimes if we get something good, we can even attribute it to God. It doesn't mean he's the one that gave it to us.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:23

And that's the difference between his perfect will and his permissible.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:26

Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:27

And one thing I've really learned over the past two, I've been a Christian for my whole life, but I gave my life to Jesus in 2011. And I always say I was Christian like Olive Garden's Italian.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

Okay, that's a great statement.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:38

And it wasn't until recently that I really started taking my faith seriously. And one of the hard truths I think I had to learn was that he works all things together for our good, right? Not some things, all things. And that can be a very difficult truth, especially when the trials and tribulations come, you know. But I think there's there's a power in that understanding, power in that knowledge. And this only comes through reading scripture and seeing how this plays out throughout history uh biblically. Um, and also I this I want to take a moment to to point out the seriousness of staying in the word, right? Um, because he says his people perish for lack of knowledge. And we we can put information on on an altar, I think. We see this in the personal development world. It's like, oh, if I read another book, if I have this perfect strategy, right, then I'll be good. No, no. And I think also, too, what we're alluding to, I I hear this underlying tone of posture, right? Like heart posture, your spiritual posture. It's like, yeah, prosperity is good, abundance is good insofar as it's aligned with your posture towards Jesus. Um, you mentioned tithing before. This is a controversial topic. I one of the things I really dislike is I see some videos out there. Well, the Bible doesn't actually tell you you have to tithe anymore. Okay, God bless, right? I know for a fact that tithing is once again what I call spiritual technology. Not only does it help the church from a practical perspective, but it does something in the spirit, it does something for the soul, it may it helps you continuously rely on God. The times that I've tithed when I've had nothing have been the biggest moments of breakthrough financially, opportunity, doors opened. And I don't want, I don't want to get into this idea that it's necessarily one for one where it's always this transactional thing, but I do think, and I've seen in my own experience in other people's lives, there's a spiritual blessing that happens and not just financially. So talk to me about tithing. What what do you think a Christian nowadays? How should they look at tithing?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:34

You can make the Bible say or not say anything you want if you pull something out of context and you take a little snippet of it, and it's like, well, you know, in the New Covenant and under Jesus, you don't have to tithe. And he didn't talk about it. And and, you know, that argument of Jesus didn't talk about it. He talked about money a lot, but like Jesus not talking about something uh specifically to a Hebrew audience who already had a full understanding of what the Bible has said up to that point doesn't prove that you should go do whatever Jesus didn't talk about. Um, but in context, throughout the scripture, from Abraham uh through Old Testament prophecy, um, Malachi chapter three, verse 10 is probably one of the most famous ones that's uh talked about a lot. But he talks about giving into the storehouse. He says, Will a man rob God, yet you are robbing me? And you say, How have we robbed you? And it says, in your tithes and your contributions. And then verse 10 says, Bring the full tithe into the storehouse that there may be food in my house, and thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. And so this is like the only time I see in scripture where God says, put me to the test in this. When you trust me with what you have, with what I've given you in the first place. Once again, it's that the open hand model, you're giving me what you have so that I can work with it. And I'm the one who has no lack. So put me to the test in this. Trust me. See that when you give to me, I'm gonna take care of your needs. Now, once again, doesn't mean it's like you said, one for one. I give this much and now I'm guaranteed this percent of return on my investment. But it does mean that it's a heart posture, it's a trust in God. And when it says bring it into the storehouse, my understanding is that the storehouse is the local church. We can give to charity, that's great, but there should be an amount that we have set aside, biblically speaking, it's at least 10%, depending on you know what you're looking at. It's actually more than that. But I'm gonna give that into the church because as you said, it's not just for the church, it's for me. In that it's my ability to reveal my trust in God. What do we need more than money? Like money is such an important thing. If I give that to God, that is such a reflection of my trust in Him. And he says, because He's a good father, I'm gonna take care of you. So when people don't tithe, especially as Christians who attend church, um, to me, the analogy, and and I actually think I'm I'm gonna talk about this soon. Um, if we went to a restaurant and we were served this meal, and we got up at the end of it and are like, yeah, that was that was really good. Uh, but they owe that to me, right? Like, I actually it was good for them that I was here because I made their restaurant look better. And you get up and you leave, like that's completely wrong. We wouldn't do that. And yet people will often go into church thinking, this is all about me. I get to get fed, I get to get something out of it, I get to see my friends and family, I get to sing, I get to feel good, and then I'm just gonna leave. It's like, well, what did you contribute? Not just in your money, but did you bring something to the table? Did you encourage somebody while you were there? Did you take the time to pray for somebody, to um ask them how they're doing and genuinely mean it? We are meant to come before God as a family, as community, as those that are walking in humility and following his example. And tithing and giving is a really important and practical way of looking at it. So, my understanding from the time I was a kid, I've had those same experiences. My parents, the stories that I've always heard, we gave and we gave a little bit extra because it hurt. We walked in obedience and God showed up. Is that why we give? No. But he's just that good.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:29

Absolutely. And I when I'm coaching Christian entrepreneurs, I always say, first of all, it's not your business, it's God's business. It's not your money, it's God's money. We're returning what's his back to him. Um, and yes, I agree, starting practically with the local church. I do also look at tithing as um, you know, blessing somebody randomly, or you know, I'll see like a Christian uh influencer who I think is doing really well in their ministry, and I'll and I'll this is not to pat myself on the back, but I'll send them money just randomly, but like anonymously. Um, I think that's all kind of part of the posture, once again, is like giving back to God's.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:04

I would say like tithe is that set amount that you've determined with God, and like I said, 10% is a good starting point, but we're called to live generous lifestyle, right? And generously give. And so that's that that above and beyond.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:18

Do you think the the tithing percentage matters as much as the heart posture behind?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:22

No, I would say in everything in our walk with God, the heart posture matters the most. But then we've talked about obedience quite a few times, obedience to what he calls you to do, and uh, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:33

So there's a there's a standard and a metric, and also it's the posture.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:37

Yeah, I just think it's good. Like we talked about some of the tradition of our faith, knowing what has been believed and what's been put in place, you know, throughout the generations of of Christianity and following God. Um, but with anything, it can become religious if it's just checking a box. And so it needs to be the heart above everything else because we can limit ourselves if we just look at it as, oh, well, it's just this percentage. And God's like, well, I'm actually asking for more. And maybe it's just for a season, but are we sensitive enough to hear that?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:10

Yeah, and I think too, it should increase beyond 10%. I think you know, I I was reading, I forget the book, it was some Christian author, but he was saying that at some point every year that goes by, he added another percentage and he actually he graphed his revenue and his, and once again, we got to be careful not to look at it transactionally like that, but he has these graphs from his businesses where the more he gave, the more uh success he had financially. But he was he was he was putting it back into the ecosystem of the church. And he said that he doesn't set goals based on his revenue, he sets goals on how much he wants to give.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:48

And that's next level. I like that. Yeah. So that's what that's what I'm trying to implement in my business. Um, I do want to go, I want to come full circle because we started off this this episode talking about um maybe some supernatural experiences you have. I believe the word is paramount, teaching the word is paramount, learning about Jesus is paramount, and also experiencing the power of Jesus is important. Because if you have the teaching without the experience, you know, and I think you know, we we briefly talked about uh the idea or the fact that there's this new age community nowadays, and we see this on like online, the whole manifestational world, burning sage, tarot cards, things like that. And I think that people um most people are searching for the spiritual and they know it's there, but they go into this new age side of things. And I think a lot of churches, what I found don't preach enough about the supernatural. And and and if they did and weren't as scared to do it, because I think I I I get it seems a little weird to even um veteran Christians, if you will. Um so talk to me about the supernatural, right? What are the levels to this spiritual game? Um, and are there any you mentioned some personal experiences you had maybe with healing? Are there any any experiences you've seen, witnessed firsthand of like really wild supernatural moves of God in someone's life, healing, words of knowledge, prophecy. Do you have any examples that you could share?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:21

Yeah, I mean, you're you're talking to some of my roots here, um, you know, kind of what I grew up with. I I would say just to start off with being aware that there is a supernatural reality. If we believe in salvation, if we believe in our spirits being um walking into both salvation now, as we said, but also for eternity, then we recognize there is more that we can't see. Paul says very clearly that the battle that we have on earth is not against flesh and blood, primarily, it's not against other human beings, but it's against the principalities and the powers and the rulers of darkness. So they weren't shy about talking about that in the early church. I think it was probably more common. Um And when we talk about being disciples of Jesus, following the way of Jesus, being his representation, we're meant to follow him to look more like him. And that is in our actions and our behavior. But I also believe we're meant to do the things that he did. He actually says that. Um, he empowers his disciples to go and to heal the sick, to bring healing to the to those that are demon-possessed, to cast out the demons, to do those things. So he says, this is what I've called you to do. He sets that example, and then uh he tells us in the Great Commission to go and to create disciples. And so disciples follow the leader, they follow the teacher, and they do what he did. So if Jesus operated in the supernatural and cast out demons and cast out demons that cause sickness and and spoke to the in the spiritual realm, then we also must be more aware of it than we tend to be in 2026 in Christianity in America. So to answer your question about what I've experienced, I grew up um with a grandmother who was a very uh strong spiritual woman, uh, very strong in her faith, taught me a lot in addition to my parents. And uh she was in a ministry that was this like the if you're talking about the movies, it's like exorcism, right? But it's deliverance. Deliverance, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:26

Um which we I think we're gonna have to do a part two to this and talk because that stuff I she would be very upset if I forgot the term deliverance.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:34

So that's a little condemning in and of itself. But deliverance ministry, which was like sit down and we're gonna pray, and we are going to allow the Holy Spirit to speak, and we're gonna recognize we talked about identity things, we talked about deficits, trauma, brokenness. Um, we're going to pray and we're gonna ask God to reveal if there is any demonic activity going on here, doors that have been opened through agreements, through unforgiveness, through generational curses. Like these are all the terms that I grew up uh listening to. And in some ways, we've moved too far away from it, where we've focused too much on, you know, um, what was your experience, and not recognizing that in the spiritual realm, the enemy who is Satan wants to use those things as openings to be able to have influence in your life. And you've given it to him through whatever the action might be. And so um I grew up seeing her operate in deliverance and and calling out demons and seeing a manifestation of that. Um, it tends to happen more in in other countries where they're a lot more aware of the spiritual realm. Um, but for me personally, I would say in supernatural ways, it's more been in places where it's been in uh dreams and I would say what we call uh supernatural warfare, right? And uh where somebody is experiencing demon possession, it's very clear, and you call out that demon in the name of Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:07

Do you do this at your church? Is deliverance yeah in the forefront?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:11

I wouldn't say it happens a whole lot, but I as we continue to move forward towards God, like these things come and we want people who are oppressed and dealing with, you know, these kind of things that are are not just your standard run-of-the-mill, you know, somebody hurt my feelings, you know, to come in and to be able to address those. But I think it needs to be taught about, it needs to be really from a biblical perspective. And um so something that I'm glad you brought up because it it's important.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:42

We we you and I will have to do a whole episode on spiritual warfare and deliverance because I think this is this is one of those things I pee I think people are searching for, right? And they're not getting it enough in the in the American church right now. Um, so I do I want to land this plane a little bit practically for people because we went high level, we went deep, we went all over the place, which I think was really helpful uh for the listener, but specifically to the Christian entrepreneur, what's one spiritual discipline that they should be doing or exercising daily?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:13

To me, the most important spiritual discipline. Okay, so the word of God, right? This is this is if you don't eat, you're not gonna grow. Uh, this isn't an optional extra. Um, I would say the most important thing for me though is when I walk into a room, I want to know that I'm not going into it based off of just my own ability, my own knowledge, my own information. And the only way to do that is when you operate in intimacy with God. So whether you're a brand new Christian, you haven't even become a Christian yet, but you're wanting to become one, or you've walked with the Lord for a long time, that time of intimacy with God, which means spending time with him intentionally, this is the example that Jesus gave us, is the thing that creates uh an awareness of who he is that doesn't just stay in a church service. It doesn't just stay in an emotional experience. It's meant to be part of our lives where at any moment, no matter what's going on, I can internally turn to him and just recognize who he is, that he's there for me, that he loves me, and that he's the one that wants to equip me in the business deal, in the difficult situation, in a moment of conflict, in a moment where I have to be a mediator between something like I'm sure there's a lot of different scenarios here. But if you recognize he's with you, it changes the dynamic completely because your value is founded him.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:44

Yeah, I love that. And that's exactly why I was led to create creator and co um this group of faith-based entrepreneurs who want to bring Jesus back to the marketplace. And uh one of the things we do every Wednesday is we meet to equip these entrepreneurs with spiritual technology and to put on the armor of Christ to build that relationship with Christ.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:04

I love that terminology as you've as you've explained it a little bit. I think that's really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:08

And it's a little buzzwordy. You know, I get that, but it's it's marketing as well. But I do believe it. There's these spiritual technologies and truths that we can leverage and principles that are crucial to our walk and specifically in our in our businesses. And so I always invite people to go to creatorandcode.com, um, get plugged into the information. It's free. Uh God put on my heart. I was wondering like, do I charge for this? And he said, basically, I don't want you to work for money anymore. And that's not to take out the financial need. I'm still going to do things for money, but this specifically take the money out of it. Um, so if people are are are led to join, I encourage them to do that. And uh, Sam, I appreciate you coming on. This is a great conversation. Uh, I want to ask you, would you mind uh leading us in prayer for the entrepreneurs, specifically for the entrepreneurs and the business owners that are uh listening to this?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:52

I'd be happy to do that. Lord Jesus, I thank you for those who are listening, who are engaging in what you've called them to do. And I pray first of all for clarity, Lord God, and direction. I pray, Lord, that as it says in your word, that as they follow you, they would hear a voice behind them saying, This is the way, this is the place that you're supposed to go, walkie in it. And I pray, Lord God, that even in the places where they don't see exactly what the outcome is going to be, that there would be such a trust in you, that there would be such a reliance on you and that Holy Spirit that you would lead them and you would guide them, that you would guide their steps, and that you would open doors that can only be opened by you, that you would close doors that are meant to be closed. And if they're closed, that they would have a peace in it, knowing that you're calling them into something better. I pray that you would equip them with a supernatural ability to persevere and to endure when things are difficult, but to continue to trust in you, knowing that when they seek you first, they seek first your kingdom, that everything else will be added onto it. I just uh I just thank you that we can trust you in all these ways in Jesus' name. Amen.