Renew Your Mind | Romans 12:2 Explained

In this episode of The Fifth Gospel, the hosts unpack Romans 12:2 and explain why renewing the mind is essential for real Christian transformation.

They discuss the difference between behavior modification and identity transformation, salvation versus sanctification, and how old thought patterns, emotions, and “soul wounds” can keep believers stuck in cycles of fear, shame, anxiety, and compromise.

Topics include:
-What Romans 12:2 really means in context
-How to stop conforming to the world’s mindset
-The difference between salvation and sanctification
-Why healing must be rooted in Jesus, not self-help
-How to identify fruit and uncover the root issue
-Taking thoughts captive biblically
-Healing soul wounds through surrender and the Holy Spirit
-Forgiveness, identity, and emotional renewal
-Practical steps for renewing your mind daily

If you’ve struggled with recurring habits, anxiety, negative thinking, unforgiveness, or spiritual stagnation, this conversation offers practical and biblical guidance for walking in the mind of Christ.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Renewing our minds is the most important element of transformation, which is the responsibility of every Christian.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

The way out is the way through. And healing is not healing if it's divorced from God, it's just temporary relief.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

When I come to God, I come to the cross not because I could do it on my own and I'm choosing to go through this way. It's because I don't have any other option outside of the finished work of Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

So the question is not how do we update the system, it's how do we access the system that's been given to us.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Lord Jesus, thank you for this time. Thank you for this podcast. Thank you for all that we get to communicate here and now. And we pray that you would speak in us and through us and that whoever's listening, that they would receive it from you, not from us.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Amen. Amen. If you're a Christian and you don't get this part of your walk right, I'm confident that your life could be plagued by uncertainty, chaos, and even delay. And what we're going to talk about today specifically is how to renew your mind as a Christian through the lens of scripture. And then also what it means to have the mind of Christ and how to even activate that. So I want to, I want the practical and the supernatural to collide here together between the two of us. And I pray that this wouldn't be because uh, you know, you can communicate well or I can kind of simplify these things into practical step-by-step things, but through the revelation that the Holy Spirit gives the person listening to this, um I pray that this would be one of the most impactful episodes that we create. Because I think this is important. And I, as I was putting this together, I was like walking around my house. I was so excited, my spirit was like exploding with this topic because I've seen in my own life um how tremendously important it is to renew your mind. And it's an ongoing process. At least that's what I've discovered. And we're gonna double-click into this. Um, but when you hear mind of Christ, renewing your mind, we're gonna talk about Romans 12, too. What's the first thing that comes up for you as a pastor? Because I know you firsthand get to see your um congregants, church members, elders at the church, other pastors, you see how they deal with these topics, and you're often coaching them, pastoral counsel. So, what do you see as like some of the common through lines when when we talk about these topics?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Renewing our minds is the most important element of transformation, which is the responsibility of every Christian. If we're following Jesus, we are desiring that our lives would look differently today and tomorrow and the next day than they did then when we started. And so if we don't renew the mind, if we don't address our thoughts and our thinking and our perceptions, the things that have contributed to those thoughts and thinking, we will end up in a place where we can change our desires, we can change the things that we want. I'm now going after godly things, but I don't actually change the approach on how I get there. I can still go back to my old ways of doing things. And it's like, I want to get to a new destination, but I'm trying to drive down the old roads to get there, and it just doesn't work. And so transformation to me is so near and dear to my heart because what I believe very firmly is that in our walk with God, we do want to be changed. We do want to be challenged and transformed. And so Romans 12, too, which is what you brought up, is one of the most commonly repeated verses within Christianity and for good reason. Like, have you ever thought about why certain verses get more traction and notoriety than others? Like there's John 3.16 that we quote from the time that we're kids, and it's because it speaks about the love that God has for us. It's Jeremiah 1.5, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you and I set you apart. Jeremiah 29, 11, for I know the plans that I have for you. Jeremiah 33, where it says that I want to show you deep and unsearchable things that you don't know. It's because those verses are speaking to a part inside of us that resonate with this is who I want to become. I don't know how to get there, but I know that it's grabbing a hold of me. So Romans 12, too, is the same thing. Don't be conformed any longer to the ways of thinking that are according to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Why does that resonate? Because we want it really bad. We want to think differently, we want to do differently, but we don't know how to get there.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

I was gonna say, I think it resonates deeply with a lot of Christians, and it's one of the most well-known verses, but I would venture out to say that's one of the most misunderstood.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

And that's why I think it's so important that we double click into this because there's practical, supernatural, and spiritual implications to understanding and misunderstanding. I always quote this verse on the on in these episodes like people perish for lack of knowledge. Part of this process, even listening to this episode right now, someone's gonna experience some renewal of their mind, which is cool. And we're gonna talk about the practical and neurological implications of that as well. I do want to set the tone for this episode with it with a different verse. Um, it's Hebrews 6. I think I've quoted this on the on this podcast before as well. But it says Hebrews 6. So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don't need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. You don't need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And so, God willing, we will move forward and so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding. I say that because if you go on YouTube and you search how to renew your mind or um how to how to hold your thoughts captive, all things we're gonna talk about. One of the things they're gonna you're gonna mention in 99% of those videos is read your Bible.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

And my hope and prayer here today is that there's a mature Christian listening to this. And not that we're not on all different um parts of our walk. Um, but this episode is not gonna be b not gonna be Pastor Sam and I repeating read your Bible.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

And that's not to take away from the importance of reading your Bible, but by now you should know um that you need to be in your your Bible daily. We're gonna go levels deeper. We're gonna seek out those those mysteries and and and secrets and that revelation. Um, but I just want to put that out there and and I think it's safe to say that you might agree with that with that posture. Um, because even here, I if I if I just look at this real quick, it says even the resurrection of the dead and the laying out of hands and baptism, it's it's just basic. We should already know to live a lifestyle of repentance and seeking God and putting him first. All of these things should be basic at this point. And once again, it's not to say it's not important. We just did a whole episode on how to study the Bible. Um, but for this uh for the purposes of this episode, uh, we're gonna go much deeper, I think, than than normal.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Yeah. Can I ask a question to start?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Okay, so don't be conformed any longer to the ways of thinking that are according to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of our mind. The most important starting place in pursuing a renewal of the mind is a recognition of why it's necessary in the first place. And so when we look at the way that our mind has operated before Christ and the way that it is now called to operate in Christ, we have to recognize it's because the old way of doing things simply is incompatible with the kingdom of God. And if we go into a new relationship and we carry all the baggage of the old relationship, what we're gonna do is we're gonna enter into this new space with old feelings, old emotions, old understanding. And we're gonna walk into this new relationship and we're gonna carry the baggage of the past into the present, and it's just not gonna work. The new relationship is doomed from the start if you're carrying all your junk from the old relationship. And so the way that we used to think about things, the way that we used to approach things, yes, it served a purpose back then, but it's no longer going to function in what you're called to today. Amen. And so if we're gonna walk in the renewal of our mind, it's because we've come to the recognition that the old mindsets, they just don't work. Yeah. So there has to be a rejection of that. There has to be a death to that in order to move into what's next. And so what I taught a Sunday school class um this past Sunday morning, and I said, what we need to recognize is that the cross of Christ wasn't a payment for us to have dual citizenship. It's a payment for us to move into citizenship transfer. So it's not how can I take the old and bring it into the new and try to intermingle my old beliefs with my new beliefs? It is a moving away and a total disavowing of what was to move into the new of what is. And that to me seems pretty hard for people to walk away from the old and look at it as, and this is what Paul says he says, My accomplishments of the past are as filthy rags compared to what I have in Christ. He went through and he listed all the things that he used to do. He said, All of those things, which were major accomplishments in the flesh, I count them as worthless in comparison to what I now get to do in my relationship with God.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Sounds to me like you have to choose sides.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

You absolutely have to. And that's why it's so difficult. That's why we talk about death to self. It's why we talk about discipleship being the laying down of what was to now follow Jesus. But unfortunately, for anybody listening today, until there is a place of recognizing the old things don't work anymore, nothing of what we're gonna talk about is gonna be of any value.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah. Yeah, and it makes me think about the fact that you know, death is not compatible with life. You're you're moving in one direction or the other. And you know, we are a new creation when we decide to uh give our lives to Christ. But I also know that, you know, when I gave my life to Christ, I didn't look down and be like, I'm a new creation. Yeah, why didn't those 20 pounds go away? You know? Yeah. So there is a physical, worldly, fleshly uh element to our existence, at least on this side of heaven. And I think where this renewal of the mind topic comes in is one, like you said, we're not upgrading in the sense that we're upgrading the old.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, it's not a refurbishing.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

No, we're doing away with that operating system. Yeah, and we have the mind of Christ. So the question is not how do we update the system, it's how do we access the system that's been given to us. Yeah. And so I like, can we start with Romans 12.2? Let's let's just read it because I think as we dive into what is actually in this verse or in these verses here, um, it's gonna reveal a lot to us, um, even outside of, of course, our our own opinion. Um, and I want to extend on on this verse that most people don't quote is the latter part of it. So let's start with uh Romans uh 12.2. I'm gonna read my translation, which is the NOT. Quick disclaimer I read NOT when I'm like kind of uh studying these things side by side with uh maybe the English Standard Version. Um, but this is like an easier way to read it for me, and then we can always look at the difference with Can you start a few verses earlier?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, chapter 11, chapter 11, verse 33. Because I think one thing that we talked about last week in how we approach the Bible is reading things in context. And so I'd love to hear in that in that translation um what verses starting in 33, because it's actually giving us a a runway into chapter 12, which we know when this original letter was written, there were no chapters, there were no verses. It was a continual letter. And so I love to be able to see just those verses leading up to that.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

This is this is why we have uh Pastor Sam on, is because he makes everything um more complicated. Not more complicated. You you need this, right? Like these are things that that uh maybe someone just getting into the Bible or getting into their understanding of their faith and their walk is it they don't necessarily understand how important context is. So actually, before before we do read that, can you give us even more of a setup? Like who who are the the players here? Yeah, what's happening, what's going on at this time. So that's a good point. Let's let's set up the context.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

So the book of Romans is an incredible theological expression of the gospel. Uh simplifying that, Paul is writing to an audience that he has never met before in person. And before he gets there, he wants to make sure that they're on the same page on all the things that matter. And so it's not that Paul has his own gospel in that he's the creator of it, but this is based off of the revelation that he's received from Jesus. And so he's speaking to a church in Rome. They've gone through a bunch of things. They were originally a Jewish church, but then there was persecution that came. And so they had to flee, they had to leave. And there were now Gentiles, so those that were outside of the Jewish faith who are now Christians that had filled the church, and now you have both of them coming back together. And so the Jewish faith was more based off of the law and based off of the Jewish tradition. The Gentiles are coming into this realm, not really having a full understanding of all of those things. So they're like, circumcision? No thanks. I'm a full-grown adult. I don't want to be circumcised, I don't want to enter into your religious, not to say religious being bad, but your understanding of what the faith was. And so the first seven chapters, Paul is speaking about the old reality. He's speaking about the law, he's speaking about Abraham. But then when we get past chapter seven into chapter eight, and then what we're going to read today, he's now talking about the new reality in Christ. And so everything now is in the context of the finished work of Jesus. It's not based off of what we can do, it's based off of who we now get to be because he already paid the price for us. So this chapter 12 is a new reality. All right, we've already established the law has been fulfilled in Jesus. He fulfilled the things that we couldn't. So now this is how we get to live. And so now we're going to talk about what the mindset of a believer is meant to be through what Jesus has done.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

I knew there was a reason why we had John as co-host. All right, so let me read from Romans 11, verse 33. Oh, how great are God's riches and wisdom and knowledge, how impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways. For who can know the Lord's thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice? And who has given him so much that he needs to pay it back? For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever. Amen. And so can you just reiterate the importance of those verses, that latter part of chapter 11 in relation to what we're about to read in chapter 12?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

So Paul is introducing almost what feels like a problem. Like we are meant to follow God, we're meant to pursue him, but how can we even understand him? Who can understand the thoughts of God? How unsearchable are his judgments and his inscruta how my version says inscrutable, but you can't even question his ways. What hope do we have of being able to understand what God's calling us to do? And then he quotes the prophet Isaiah and he says, and this is what Isaiah said in Isaiah chapter 40, uh, for who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor, or who has given a gift to him that it might be repaid? And the reason why we want to know this, verse 36, for from him and through him and to him are all things. So he is the only one worth pursuing in terms of our understanding and our knowledge. So this is the problem. He's God, his ways are higher than ours, his thoughts are higher than ours. What chance do we have of being able to enter into a place of understanding him? So that's the question, and now we're going to receive the answer in chapter 12.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Okay. So I'm going to start from Romans uh 12, 2, then, right? Or you can read one. Read one. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Because it's part of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Okay. Um, therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. This is your true and proper worship.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

So let's just stop there for one second. All right. So the question is, how do we understand? And and so much of our of our walk with God is like, God, I want to know what my purpose is. I want to know what my identity is. I want to know what I'm supposed to go after. How? Like we felt that feeling of, okay, I now know that I have been bought with the blood of Jesus. Now, what does that mean for me? And we could be really excited in the beginning. We're like, I'm going to give my life to God. I'm going to win millions to Christ. And then we get to this point where real life is still happening, and we're like, God, I don't understand. Like, what do you want me to do? What does this look like? And so Paul says, okay, this is what I want you to do. I want you to, therefore, which means it's connected to chapter 11. I want you to give yourself fully to God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to him, which is your spiritual worship. Worship is always the first step. Again, the Lord's Prayer. Our Father who art in heaven, holy is your name. It's always to put ourselves in the perspective of I'm here and God, you're here. It's really important. So, okay, you are the one who is in control. You're the one that has the wisdom and the understanding. I recognize that. And so I'm going to give myself to your truth, to your reality, to the fact that you're the king. That's the first step. I want my mind to be changed. I got to realize who is the superior understanding, who has greater understanding than me. And just side note, it's not Chat GPT. Okay. It is the word of God, both written and the word of God that comes from God Himself through the Holy Spirit. So I'm going to give myself to you fully.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Gotcha. Okay. So that brings us to uh verse two. Do not be conformed to this world. Or I know some uh translations say to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Now, most people stop at do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Period.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

But there's so much more that.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

There is a so that that's a part of it. But just let's just stop for a second. Paul introduces this thing. Who can know the mind of Christ? He's unsearchable, he is unattainable. We can't even question him because he's perfect. Who can know it? And then he says, Oh, but wait a second. There is something you can do. Give yourself to him. And when you give yourself to him, you have the ability to no longer be conformed to what was. You now get to enter into transformation so that you can test that you can discern that you can know what is the perfect will of God. Problem, solution.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

That's why I love this verse. I love this verse because everybody asks, How do I hear from God? And most often, correct me if I'm wrong, the way you're gonna hear from God is through your discernment. And that discernment is gonna get perfected through your renewal of your mind.

SPEAKER_06 20:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

And so it's telling us right here the renewal of your mind is leading you to a greater discernment so that you can hear from God in some sense, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

What is good and acceptable and perfect.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Exactly. So let's let's break down um some of the original language, if you don't mind, of Romans 12, because I think this is going to give us even more insight. Because the first thing that we see is uh do not be conformed, which uh I looked up the Greek here, it's uh siskematizo. Am I saying that correct? Or suschematizo? I mean, that's close enough for me. Yeah, close enough. Um, and what this is referring to is this this process of being conformed is like an external pressure that's shaping you. And so it's it's a passive uh passive verb, um, which means it's happening automatically. You're kind of just un unknowingly and unintentionally responding somehow to pressure, stimuli, the world around you.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

Your old nature.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Your old nature, right? And so we see this even in in psychology um and in neurology, how our lives, especially from childhood, begin to shape us, the world around us, things that are said to us, things that are done to you, things that you witness affect you, right? And we talked about uh briefly, I think, soul wounds and and whatnot. And this this falls under this topic of uh renewing the mind because the mind is a facet of the soul, right? Um, but I want I want people to know is like you don't have to try to be conformed because you already are. Yeah. And it starts with the awareness that you've already been conformed to this world in some way, shape, or form, right? And so the question becomes is like, how do we combat that?

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

So what do you have to say about this first part of like do not be conformed?

SPEAKER_00 21:57

I'll go back to that analogy. If I took The very same conversations and the very same ways of doing things, let's say tradition, let's use tradition because it's a it's a safe one. All right, in a previous relationship, uh, the way that we did presents, the way we did gifts, the way we did date nights or whatever it is, that was one way of doing it. If I get into a new relationship and I try to operate under that same paradigm and I try to do the things for my new relationship that I did for my old. Like let's say, especially that was an ex-girlfriend. This is now my wife. And my wife says, We need to go out, um, we need to set this rhythm. We need to go out once a week. And I love this kind of gift. I don't like flowers. I actually like this instead. But my old girlfriend really liked flowers. And so I keep showing up with flowers all the time. I'm operating in an old mindset that doesn't serve me in this new relationship. And so, by virtue of me growing up in this earth, subjected to sin and brokenness, I am conformed to a way of thinking that if I want to get something, this is how I go about doing it, whether it's manipulation, my own strength, my own ability, my own understanding. And then I bring that into my relationship with Christ and say, God, don't worry. I'm gonna figure this thing out using my own intellect. I'm gonna really work hard on this and push in my own strength. And God's like, hey, dummy, I've already done all those things. I don't need your understanding. I will use it. I don't need your strength. I'll use it. I don't need you to come and to solve the problems. I'm the one who has the answer. Now you get to rest in me. So we're no longer being conformed in what was. Now we get to enter into a renewal, a transformation, which is I know what we're gonna go into.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

And so you don't call your wife by your ex's name either.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Definitely not. No.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

So the this this being conformed is something that, like I said, we're all subjected to in one way, shape, or form. Um, and then if we look at the word uh for world in Greek, it's aeon. And it's not referring necessarily to just the physical world, it's a system of thought, like the culture, the age of this time. Yeah. Um, and so uh some of the translations, if I look in my NLT, it says um don't copy the behavior and customs of this world. You know, I think the first thing that comes to mind is like this main character energy, you know, there's a lot of self on the shelf, success, materialism, pursuit, hustle culture. Yeah, that falls under this idea of the world.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

And those are things through social media, through just living life that we end up conforming to unintentionally.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

And we think God needs it. We come with with our look at this is all I get to bring you, God. And I don't want to downplay who what our strengths are and our abilities, because God has given those to us. But there does, like I said in the beginning, there needs to be this recognition of when I come to God, I come to the cross, not because I could do it on my own and I'm choosing to go through this way. It's because I don't have any other option outside of the finished work of Jesus. So I don't want to come with my self-righteousness. I don't want to come with the thinking of this world and the look at me. I want to come in a place of I'm a living sacrifice. My life is now given to you. And from that place, you can shape me, you can mold me, you can use me. And I think that's why, in some ways, there are so many churches that are really good with gathering together and saying we're here under the name of Jesus and then promoting everything they want. Like we were driving uh this morning, and my son looks over at this church that's got this giant rainbow transgender flag. And he's like, Daddy, why would they do that? Like this thing was more prominent than any cross, than any depiction of Jesus. And I'm like, Well, bud, that's not a church anymore. He's like, Really? He's like, Did it used to be a church? I'm like, I think so. But it's no longer under Jesus, it's no longer unto Jesus, it's a club now. It's a way of thinking, it's a it's an ideology that we've gathered under, but it's no longer a church because Christ is no longer the head of it.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

It divorces itself from truth.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

It does. And so they go after their own delusions and they put it under this gauge of this heading of Christianity. And we've talked about this. Uh, there are many who are either influencers or um even politicians. You remember the name of the guy in Texas that I was telling you about? Uh, I forget his name, but he's running under this guise of being a Christian. And yet, as a Christian, he's promoting all the things that God hates. There has been no transformation. There's been total conforming to the world and saying this is what it's supposed to be without subjection, submission to Jesus. You can be a Christian and love Jesus and not be a disciple. You can be someone who says his name and then shows up before him and he says, Depart from me because I never knew you, because you never actually made me Lord. You just kept talking about me. You kept taking the things that I said and applying it to the things that you thought were right. And it's really sad because some people will be led astray by that. But when there becomes a place of trial or a place of uh persecution, they fall away so quickly because it was never about God, it was about them. It was never about his strength, it was about their own. And their feelings. And their feelings. And if their feelings get hurt, God forbid. God forbid that God himself is the one who gets to make the statement on or the decision on what is right and what is wrong. We are not the arbiters of truth in our own life, and we cannot be. And if we are, then we are holding ourselves to a much higher standard and we will be disappointed. Because I don't know about you, I've gone into plenty of situations where I've realized I don't have the answer here. I'm not the one who has the solution in this problem. And I don't want to be. I want to be able to go to God and say, God, this situation is too big for me. Will you be the one that leads me? Will you be the one that that informs my decisions? And the answer is always yes. He wants to. He waits patiently. Isaiah 30 says, He is waiting for us to come back to him. Anyway, that's a little bit of a diversion, but it's it's something that is I see happening in the Church of America, and it's really sad and it's really scary.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Well, it reminds me of something that I pray for that now, as you're saying that feels a little dangerous because I'm always praying for God to use me and to guide my thoughts, my feelings, my emotions, my actions. But I don't think I truly understand what that means. Yeah. Right. And as I was researching this topic, uh the Holy Spirit put on my heart uh the potter and his clay and uh Jeremiah. I I just got this beautiful like depiction of the idea between like salvation and and sanctification is a topic too under this, but like he like saw us, right? This is clay that wasn't yet molded into anything, but he set us apart. He's like, I'm gonna use you. I already know what you're gonna be used for. I have a plan for your life, and then he begins to mold us, and sometimes he has to tear us down. I think that we we see that with the potter's clay, right? He has to tear us down. What's the verse? The verse.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

I think that's Jeremiah 18, I believe. Okay, yeah. Uh, or even uh Isaiah 45, verse 9, where it says, the clay doesn't say to the potter, what do you think you're making? The pot doesn't say to the potter, your work is useless. Um, this is just a depiction of when we think that we get to make that that ultimate decision. Um, I want to read this again in context because I I love to see what he's what he's saying fully in this. Um he says, Woe to him who strives with him who formed him. So woe to him. That's that's strong biblical language to the one who looks at the creator and says, uh, what are you making? Or your work has no handles. Woe to him who says to a father, what are you producing? Uh there is this place in us that wants to question everything, that wants to be able to put forward our own ideas and our own understanding. If that is happening, and I would say, I'm sure there are places in all of our lives where this happens, recognize this is a place where I'm being invited into transformation. Will I subject myself to the one who has all the understanding, or do I want to make sure I have the last word?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Speaking of transformation, the Greek word for that is metamorpho.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

That's a beautiful word. I did a whole study on this, and just in terms of the caterpillar going into the chrysalis. And I just love this. I want to hear what you have to say about it. But the caterpillar goes into the concun, into this enclosure. And scientifically, the entire caterpillar ceases to be while it's in there. It actually deforms it. It is it's melting inside of that. But there are these things called imaginal discs, which are pre-programmed blueprints within the caterpillar. They've been there, but it's at that moment that they're activated and it's reformed. It's created, it's not refurbished, it's not the caterpillar from a bug's life, the fat caterpillar with the little tiny wings. It is completely new. But that's why I say you can't go into that place of transformation while you're still holding on to what was because it won't work. You have to fully be broken down in order to become what God has for you.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

And also, what that illustrates is that there's this internal change that manifests into an outward change. Yep. And I didn't know this before researching this topic, but that word, metamorpha, was only used four times in the New Testament. And uh it's was referring to Jesus' transfiguration. Yeah. Um, so what is the implication of that? Because when people hear the word transformed, but don't really understand the weight of the original language that was being used, where do you think people might get that wrong?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

They think it's like pimp my ride. Remember that show with Exhibit?

SPEAKER_01 32:33

They'd come in with like I put rims on your rims so you can have a TV, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

TVs underneath the car, the fish tank, the hot tub, all the ridiculousness that got the views. But how often, and it did happen sometimes, but how often did they never change the engine? They never dealt with like the suspension, they just they dealt with the outward appearance, the paint job, the subwoofers, the rims, all those things. What happens when they go home and their engine still has 260,000 miles on it and it and it's like damage beyond repair? Those things uh that's kind of the picture that we have sometimes where, oh, let me just fix the outside, let me make it beautiful, let me make it the appearance good, but internally it's still broken and I'm still gonna have to push it. So, like having a beautiful car that you still have to push down the road is not uh is not transformation. It's conforming again to a religious understanding without actually being changed.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah, and I think this shows the conflict between behavior modification and identity transformation, two totally different things. And I used to fall into that misunderstanding uh because of my my previous profession of helping people change their behaviors, quote unquote, upgrade their mindset, you know. And what I realized is one, those things divorced from God uh might give you temporary relief or temporary success, um, but it's a band-aid because you have a spiritual thing that needs to occur, a supernatural uh salvation uh and sanctification process uh that you will go through, which I I want to go back to that. I mentioned uh salvation and sanctification. Can you clarify the difference between salvation and like this ongoing process of renewing the mind, of sanctifying um ourselves and being sanctified? Because I look at salvation as the starting point, as the starting line. And some people look at it just the thing, oh, I've secured my ticket in heaven and that's it, you know. So can you speak on that real quick? Because I think that's gonna be an important uh understanding for people to have as we talk about the actual process of being renewed and renewing the mind.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yeah. So salvation is the receiving of the finished work of Jesus. He lived a perfect life to become or to be the perfect substitution, the perfect sacrifice for our sins, our shortcomings, and our failures. He willingly laid down his life, he went to the cross to pay the price in the flesh as a man that we could not pay. He went to the grave, he went to the depths of hell, took back the keys, the authority that mankind had forfeited over to the enemy. And actually, they they made that decision, that sinful decision. So they were deceived and they gave him that authority. Jesus went back down and said, Okay, well, I paid the price that they couldn't pay. I'm taking those back. And then he rose again three days later. So the crucifixion of Jesus was the atoning sacrifice, it was the payment that we could not pay for our salvation. So that is the starting point as a believer. It's receiving what Jesus did for us and saying, that is now the new reality that I'm operating out of. I had a ledger full of sin and brokenness that I couldn't do anything with. And through the blood of Jesus, he has cleansed it. He has wiped it away. That's what atoning is. That's the atonement. So that deals with my past. That's amazing. But Jesus didn't just deal with our past, he then rose from the dead to give us new life. And so in his resurrection, he didn't just deal with the old life. He dealt, he now deals with the new life. And he's given us the ability to walk in a new life. Now, as part of that new life, our flesh, the part of us that uh is the is the part that interacts with this physical world, now needs to be changed. Our, and more specifically, our mind, our will, and our emotions, the soul that oversees the flesh needs to be put into a place of submission to God. So to simplify this, it basically what I'm saying is that in his resurrection, he gave us the ability to be sanctified, to start to walk out the process of being changed. I didn't get saved and all of a sudden the next day I'm perfect or I look like Jesus the next day. But I do have now, through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, to start to walk in this process where I become more like Christ. And that sanctification is that becoming more like Christ.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

The revelation I had recently, specifically in relation to the verse, uh he did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, of love, of sound mind, of self-control. I think when we talk about the mind and we talk about renewing the mind, we are under the assumption that that's going to lead to this control of self, control of mind. But what was kind of revealed to me is not kind of, but our self-control is only self-control insofar as it's our ability to relinquish control. Because we're either going to relinquish that control unknowingly or intentionally to the world, or we're going to relinquish that control to God. And this is also backed up by neuroscience because uh they've shown that we have about 10,000 thoughts a day. Estimates used to be much higher than that, but the most recent research shows about six to ten thousand thoughts, which is a lot of thoughts. 90 to 95% of those thoughts are automatic, or what we may call non-conscious. Some people might use the word subconscious or unconscious. The best uh neurologically sound phrase is non-conscious because we have conscious thoughts, metacognition, thoughts that we can, you know, we're having a conversation right now. We're thinking with the prefrontal cortex or executive functioning, and then we have the non-conscious uh systems neurologically. And what that tells me is that this renewal process is the process of relinquishing control to God through that um renewal process. It's like it's like it's feeding itself, you know, so that when we go out tomorrow or a week from now or a year from now, the 90 to 95 percent of our thoughts, feelings, emotions, and actions that are actually non-conscious are aligned with Him and not with the world.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Yeah. It's the same way if we think about what is the source of both the conscious and the non-conscious thoughts. Um, a simple expression of this in our world would be in politics. You're thinking a lot of things and your understanding of things are not necessarily, some of them are, but a lot of them are not your own original ideas. It's what you have seen and experienced and then what has informed those decisions. So we know this very simply. If you spend a lot of time listening to a certain kind of voice, your thinking is now going to be dictated by what they said. If you listen to CNN and MSNBC and you listen to all these other things, you're going to not think that there is anything as a man or a woman. You're not gonna, you're gonna move in these directions where these things have become convoluted. If you go the other side, now you're gonna look at every immigrant as being evil and whatever else. Like I'm talking about the extremes of these things. They're gonna be informed by whatever you're feeding yourself with. And our mind is the same way in the spirit as well. We're being fed things on a regular basis. But what we have submitted to is gonna hold the greatest authority in our lives. And so if I've submitted to my own understanding or even somebody else who I highly respect and revere, that is going to inform my conscious and non-conscious thinking. And that is why it says that we have to give ourselves as a living sacrifice and to not be conformed any longer to the old source, but to be transformed, to be renewed in our mind. It's because when we said yes to Jesus, our spirit came alive in us. And now our spirit is the place of communication between God and me. My spirit is that connection that was severed through sin, but now has been restored by the blood of Jesus. So the Holy Spirit speaks to my spirit. My spirit now used to be this afterthought. It's now in this place of priority in my life, which now informs my thinking. It now informs my mind, which means that everything else in my life has now come into a place of submission to God. It's that completely reshifting, it's that different order because it used to be my flesh and my emotions that were in charge.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Which this is pointing back to the ongoing nature of this quote unquote process. And even if we look at the the Greek word once again, metamorpho and and kind of the grammar that was being used, this is a present tense. It's ongoing. It's not a one-time thing. And it's also done in a passive voice. So it's it's done to you, not by you. Yeah, but you cooperate, right? God transforms, but it's like we have agency. That's the fast one of the facets of the soul is this will, this ability to choose. Um, and it's also a command. Yeah. It's not a suggestion.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

No, it's absolutely right.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

So how do we know though? How do we know if we're not? How do we know what our source is? Like if someone's listening right now and they're like, Well, I don't know what the source of my thinking is. I would just say very simply, the emotions are also in there intentionally to reveal what's going on and what you can't see. Yeah. If your emotions are producing anxiety and fear and worry and self-determination and all these things, then your source is something that is producing non-godly fruit. But if you're walking in peace and joy and love and patience and self-control, then I know that my source is the right one. So that's just a quick test to know when you're in pressure, when you're in stress, what's coming out of you, that's revealing what you're connected to.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Which completely aligns with the nearly decade of research I've done into the mind and the brain, specifically the nervous system, is the idea that obviously the fruit is going to be indicative of the tree.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

And also the root, right? Yeah. The fruit's going to point you to the root. Correct. And so the fruit of the emotion, of the thought quality, of the inability to control it. Like if we look at it from the soul perspective, it's mind, will, and emotion. So mind is like, what are the thought patterns? What is what's that inner voice saying? Uh, the will is like, do I feel out of control of this? Is there a lack of agency around this? Is it is it compulsive, impulsive? And then emotions, obviously, the quality of your emotional state. And if we look at those, we can then collaborate with the Holy Spirit to reveal to us the root. And so when we talk about healing a soul wound, which I want to clarify for a second, soul wounds a little bit of a buzzwordy, I don't know, it's charismatic language, you know, which is fine. Um, but really it's just pointing to a soul wound is like what is what is uh an element of your soul that's not aligned with God? You know, and this could be due to trauma, this could be due to sin either done to you or sin that you've committed, um, unforgiveness that you're holding on to. It's a vulnerability. It's a vulnerability. It's it's it's a wound, right? And so One of the ways that you investigate these soul wounds is you ask yourself, okay, what am I thinking that I shouldn't be thinking? What am I feeling that I shouldn't be feeling? What am I doing that I shouldn't be doing? That's directly opposed to what the word says. Now, when you collaborate with the Holy Spirit and you pray on these things, you meditate on these things, you'll find that the Holy Spirit can and very often does reveal to you the root.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

And you have to pull out that root.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

In my opinion. I don't know. Maybe you've done a lot of pastoral counseling for people. Can you speak to that? Because I think a lot of people just put paint on the ceiling, meaning they have a leak. And instead of opening up the ceiling and getting to the exact point of the leak, they spackle over it, sand it down, repaint it. And all of a sudden, a month later, it comes right back. So can you speak to this idea of fruit and root and the tree that's connected to what does that look like practically?

SPEAKER_00 44:55

That's why they say that change doesn't occur until the pain of remaining the same is actually becomes more than the pain of change. And it's because it requires something of us to go and to look at the root of something, especially if it's painful, especially if it causes these emotions to come up. And what happens is if we have a soul wound, what we also are going to very likely have are places of protection on top of it to keep people away because it's a vulnerability. If I let somebody too close, this is gonna hurt. So I have anger that comes up, or I have deflection that comes up, or I have humor, or whatever it is. So we have to be aware there, it's not gonna be easy to get to, which means that there is gonna be work required, which is why I believe that Paul starts with give yourself as a living sacrifice. That depiction of a living sacrifice to the Hebrew culture, it's laying yourself down on the altar. It's giving yourself fully. It's not necessarily gonna feel good, it's not necessarily gonna be comfortable, but the outcome of it is freedom. The outcome of what you are doing is the ability to live free of the chains that have connected you to that wound and to that pain. And so a lot of times it we we do it incrementally. We get closer and closer and closer until we finally uh uncover the root of the problem. And this is where we also have to understand that it's not us doing surgery on ourselves, it's the master surgeon, as you said, the Holy Spirit who comes in to reveal these things and then gives us the grace that even if it's uncomfortable, it's not by my own strength that I'm doing this. I'm allowing the Holy Spirit to come in and to reveal if the wound is because I've been abandoned or neglected or hurt, that he comes into those places and he can be present in them. We can even go back to those moments of pain and see the Holy Spirit come into those places to bring healing, to realize that thing that you went through, it was terrible. Not to underplay it by any means, but to also realize that God can come into that very moment and use that trauma and that pain and what the enemy meant for evil and to use it for good. And that requires faith and it requires, again, the ability to recognize who he is in comparison to who I am. It comes from submission. My kids will reluctantly allow me to pull a splinter from their foot. They will freak out because it's painful and because they don't want to do it, but eventually they'll they'll be like, okay, this hurts really bad. I trust him. This is really gonna hurt still, but they let me do it. And then I do it, and it's like, oh, and then they're just playing two minutes later because because we got rid of that thing, but that requires the trust of God being so good and so loving that He can do it for us. So then the fruit is being able to move forward without the pain, without that encumbrance, without that is that a Christianese word, encumbrance?

SPEAKER_01 47:59

A lot of what we say is Christianese, but it's for a reason. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

So that place of like that, that that holds us back, that thing that every time I go to do this thing, there's discomfort, there's pain, there's whatever associated with it. We allow the Holy Spirit to work on it, and we get back into that moment, and you're like, oh, the last time I had to have this conversation or talk to this person, it was painful. I feel so much better now. It's because the fruit of it is now being produced from a new root, a new place of reliance, and that's in God, not on me.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

And you just made a very good point through all that too, is the way out is the way through. And healing is not healing if it's divorced from God, is just temporary relief. And what I realized over the years of helping people with these sort of afflictions and limiting beliefs and fear and anxiety was that they would experience just that temporary relief. Because one of the things that you can do, and maybe we could talk about some practical things that people can do to address these soul wounds, is that you know, the nervous system doesn't forget, our body doesn't forget. And so when you feel an unwanted emotion, it's connected to every single time you've ever felt that way back to the first time you felt that way. Wow. So outside of inviting the Holy Spirit into it, which I think you should never do now, of course, but you could theoretically feel anxiety, feel fear, feel sadness, and you could close your eyes and you could ask yourself, when was the first way I felt this way? And through some quietness, through that metacognition, through that interoception that we have of our feelings and our thoughts and our emotions, you very likely and very often can get back to the very first moment. What I have found is the importance of inviting the Holy Spirit in it is not so far, is not so much as the the revelation of what caused it or the root. I think that is important because the Holy Spirit will reveal things to you that you can't get back to from a human perspective, but it's when you get back there. Yeah, what do you think? What do you do? Because I would say, what is your what is your higher self think? Okay, well, if you go back as the adult version of you, what do you have to say to that younger child? That's limited to your human perspective, right? Where if you invite Jesus into that trauma, you invite Jesus into that scenario, you you get his verdict on what was said or done to you. Yeah, that's revelation. That's the mind of Christ. Yeah, that's what heals. That awareness alone, I have found bringing the Holy Spirit into that past moment or memory or situation, that alone it has this beautiful ripple effect in your nervous system, in your thought quality, in your emotional patterns and states. Um, but it has to be through his lens.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Yeah. Do you know who Nate Bargatszi is? Of course. All right. So I love he does this bit, and he's like, if I went back to the to, let's say, the early 1900s and he's like, I don't think that I could prove to them that I'm from the future because I don't know how anything works. We have cell phones, we have televisions, we have all these things, and they'd be like, Well, how does that work? Like, I don't know. And so if we go back into the places of pain, but we didn't have the ability to fix it then, and we still don't have the ability to fix it now, what difference is it gonna make? Only if Jesus shows up. Only if we now have that ability to walk in a heavenly perspective instead of an earthly deficit. And so that's exactly what you're saying. Don't just go back, don't just meditate, don't just think about things from a perspective of going back to that place of pain. See him going there with you because that's the only way that we see transformation. It's through Jesus. And uh, I that's why, like, if I was, you know, when I went to go talk to a counselor, I'm like, I'm gonna be very careful who I go to speak to because I'm not talking to somebody about my soul from a from an intellectual perspective. I need to go talk to somebody who knows the truth of who God is and knows how to operate with the Holy Spirit, because that's the only way that I'm gonna see true healing in this. That's me personally, but that is my recommendation when someone comes to me. I'm like, yeah, definitely go talk to somebody, but go talk to somebody who knows Jesus and believes the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Yeah, I think too many people are going to therapists and other pastors, though.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Yeah, or at least start with your pastor. Yeah. And then, and then, like, okay, this is what my counselor told me. Okay, well, now let's talk about this because there is this understanding now of everything has to be coddled and everything has, yes, we do have to be kind to ourselves, forgive ourselves, love ourselves. Boundaries are important, all these things are good, but now we're promoting this generation that comes up where they can't go through hard things, they can't deal with challenges because they've it's always someone else's fault or whatever it is. No, have your pastor have community around you be a part of the process of what you're walking through. It's not to diminish pain or the past or anything like that. Like I've heard some really heartbreaking stories, and it's only through Jesus that they're gonna find healing. But definitely he gives us community for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Yeah. I found that one of the biggest limiting beliefs that people have, even Christians, is that time is required for healing. Don't get me wrong, there is a process of healing, but it's not beyond God to heal you instantly and supernaturally and to relieve you from that soul wound, you know. So don't put God in a box and say, I need to go to therapy or counseling X amount of times over these many years because too many people are holding on to the same narrative unknowingly. And I would say start there, right? Start with the understanding that God, God can obviously do it, God can heal you. And very often, I I found that people who have given their life to Christ supernaturally and instantly heal from a lot of these things, addictions. But that's I don't think that's the majority of Christians, right? They give their life to Christ, they're offered and given salvation, and then they still deal with these things that we're talking about. Um, but doing it with God alongside of you is imperative. And I I I just want to reiterate the point is like people need to start going to their pastors more.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Yeah. What if your healing was meant to come in stages? What if there is healing that starts initially at that point of meeting Jesus, but that there is a healing that sets you on the road to continue to walk in that healing in greater degrees as you move forward into your calling?

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Of course, Paul's thorn. And I I heard a quote from Dave Ramsey recently who said that um I found God on the way up and got to know him on the way down. Yeah. So I I believe I believe that too. But for someone, someone who's listening to this who's who's feel stuck and they've been dealing with the same thing and they they've brought it to God and they've prayed and they've fasted and they meditate, they tried all these things that we're talking about. Is ask yourself, do that subconscious, not subconscious, but do that mental audit of is there a belief that's not aligned with scripture? Is there a belief about the world or myself, or is there a belief about God's capabilities that is not aligned with truth?

SPEAKER_00 55:05

Yeah. One piece of truth can change our whole reality immediately. I was doing, again, this study on Sunday morning and it talked about the divide of the cross, the old versus the new. And just that understanding of the fact that I don't want to have dual citizenship. I don't want to be in the old and in the new, was like, oh my gosh, I have a choice in which system that I am aligning myself with. I was driving into the church and I was feeling all of the heaviness, the anger, honestly, at certain things. And I was like, oh, okay. So in this moment, I do have the ability to go deeper into those places. Or through Christ, I've been given the ability to enter into a place where the spirit is informing my feelings, my emotions, my decisions, where the spirit is able to do this because I don't want to operate in the enemy's battlefield using his tools anymore. I don't want to use weapons that are based off of the old in this new realm because it's not gonna work. And so that that ability, even that recognition of, oh, I have a choice, changed everything. And that's what I want to continue to do as I encounter these situations. I want to be transformed by the renewal of my mind. When I go into a moment and the old way of thinking comes up, I want to recognize it very quickly and then do something about it, which is to now submit to the Holy Spirit and realize I don't have to do what I used to do in this moment. I get to walk in a new reality and a freedom and a grace. And I'm telling you, in that moment, I felt so much better. I felt empowered and I felt equipped. And it was supernatural. It wasn't that I talked myself into it, it's that I I leaned into and I entered into a place of rest where I didn't have to fix it or change it, but that he already did the work and now I got to receive from it.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

Yeah, this idea of needing to control everything. Is that a belief you have, right? Is it a belief that you're a victim and not a victor? Because God didn't create you to be a victim. He created you to be a victor, to be victorious over these things. He gave you power and dominion and authority.

SPEAKER_05 57:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Um, that doesn't just stop where you have to read between the lines, but these things. And if we look at the word mind too, this is what something I forgot to mention before. We see this in First Corinthians, First Corinthians, when he mentions the mind of Christ, and then Romans 12, too, of course, when he's talking about renewing your mind, the Greek word is uh noose. And this is not just about your brain. The ancient Greeks would have understood this as um the bridge between the immaterial world and the material world. So uh what is referring to is perception and faculty that then manifests in real physical reality. And so I think what's most important about the understanding of this is that when we activate or access the mind of Christ, which we already have, we begin to see through his eyes, through his lens, so that we can manifest behaviors, a life, fruit in this physical reality that's rooted in his nature, which then has uh positive uh consequences and benefits in eternity. So this is this is as much a physiological, neurological thing as it is a spiritual and supernatural thing. And that's why I said at one at the top of this episode was like these things are gonna collide. And the more I research these things, like it sometimes it takes months, sometimes it takes years. It's like I helped these people over the past decade for you know for worldly issues, let's say, with worldly modalities and processes. And then all of a sudden I'll just be reading a verse in the Bible or a chapter in the Bible, and I'm like, it was here all along. Yeah, this is amazing. And so all these things are what I like to refer to as spiritual technology that's in the Bible. Um, so let's let's reel ourselves back into the to this to the Romans 12, too. Um, we covered a lot in the past uh nearly an hour here. So I want to make sure that we we get people a practical framework and also something that they can take away um and bring into today, not just in the future, not something that's gonna happen sometime from now, but what can they start doing today? So we were at be transformed by the renewing, which I didn't get to that that word yet, but it was uh anachinosis, perhaps, if I'm saying that correctly, which is like we mentioned this, alluded to it, was like it's this complete renovation, right? It's not about um updating that old thinking, it's about replacing it, it's an ongoing process. Uh, then we just mentioned the word noose for uh for mind, which is about perception, understanding, and interpretation. So the real problem that we would have if we're experiencing these things, soul wounds, limiting beliefs, living in fear, is that we haven't fully renewed the mind. And will will we fully renew our mind on this side of heaven? I don't know. Um, but I think what we need to talk about is what is the practical step-by-step solution to actually renewing the mind? And we already hinted at it. We actually gave some pretty concrete answers to that. But if you could sum it all up in renewing the mind without telling people to just read their Bible, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Yeah, I would ask the places of your thinking up to this point, how have they worked for you? Have they produced good results? And the answer is in some places, maybe yes. I've I've already started this process where I've started to think along what the Bible says. And has that produced good fruit? Good. Continue along that way. Have I brought some of my old mindsets, however, into this new relationship? If that's the case, recognize it and understand the need for change because it's not change for change's sake, it's change unto the purpose of becoming more like Christ. It's change to be able to do exactly what Paul said, to be able to test and discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. You want to know what God's will is for your life, then this is the place to start. Number two, as we said, in your emotions, when you go into these places, especially where there's discomfort and pressure, what emotions are coming up in you? What is being produced out of you? If it's not fruit of the spirit, which is Galatians 5, then let's start to recognize that it's our thinking that's leading us into this place where it's producing self-reliance or anxiety or fear, whatever that is. That is a good indication of the places that need to be transformed. If it's self-reliance, well, my thinking needs to start to be changed in that I think I have to do it all. Where did that come from? Where did that stem from? Maybe you grew up in a household where you didn't have a father figure and everything was on you to figure it out and to be the man of the house for everybody. Um, if it's a place of fear, where did that come in? What's that place in you that that began this um uncertainty of the future, this anxiety? These are questions to start asking, not yourself, but the Holy Spirit. So I would take out a journal and just recognize, okay, I'm dealing with this anxiety, I'm dealing with this fear, I'm dealing with this abandonment. Okay, these are starting places. And now, Holy Spirit, I've recognized this thing in me, but I realize that through the cross of Jesus, he paid the price for everything I need for complete transformation. So is there thinking? Is there places in my mind where I keep going back to that result in these places over and over again? And now we start to break that down and say, Holy Spirit, where did that come from? What do you have to say about this? What does the word of God have to say about this? Do I need to forgive somebody? Am I locked into this way of thinking because I've held this against somebody for so long and I felt like I'm a victim instead of a victor? Those are things that we need to be looking at. And as you said, invite Jesus to come into those moments with you. Invite him to go back to those places where the thinking originated and say, Jesus, you did pay the price for all of this, and now I'm asking for your grace, I'm asking for your wisdom, I'm asking for your healing touch in this place where I could never do it. I couldn't do it in my salvation, and I can't do it in my transformation. I'm relying on you. Those would be the initial places that I would go. And then bring in community, bring in a pastor, bring in a friend that you can trust, a godly friend, and start to talk to them about these things so that you can be held accountable. Because we're gonna naturally kind of slip back into those places unless there's accountability in our life. And we want to walk in transformation so that more and more we're resembling, we're looking like, and we're acting like Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

So step one actually resonates a bit with what I found to be true is this investigation process almost like bring to the light, you know, which in order to bring to the light, you need to have the light, which is Jesus to expose the darkness. But you can also, some practical piece of advice that I would give somebody listening is assess your eye statements. What do you say about yourself or think about yourself that's not aligned with what God has to say about you? That's going to point to limiting beliefs, negative thought patterns, etc. Then, of course, one of the easier ones is to assess your emotional states. Are you feeling the anxiety? Are you feeling fear constantly? Are you feeling uh sadness and regret and condemnation, whatever it is? Those will often show up physiologically in our body. We can then address where those have come from because we're like bridges to the past. Now we invite the Holy Spirit as like the conductor of this process, collaborate with him to go back. And another practical piece of advice I would give from a neurological perspective is we're not just saying invite Jesus in conceptually. I'm saying leverage all facets of your of your ability, meaning use your imagination, be back there. And it is something we call associating into. It's like this is where it can feel very emotional and hard and difficult. But once again, the way out is the way through is like associate back into that moment, not necessarily to relive it, but so that your nervous system, your mind is activated in the same way because it's connected to that moment. And so we want to associate it back into because that will actually allow us to move past it much faster and much more easily. So then when we're associating into and into it and we see Jesus come into that experience, maybe we visualize that in our mind and we see what he has to say, we hear it, we hear that inner dialogue begin to change, it's beginning to have an effect on our neurology. This is the process of neuroplasticity. The neurons are beginning to fire differently, our body is communicating differently, all the trillions of cells, because of the truth that is now being interjected by the Holy Spirit, which is part of that renewal process. And so see that happening, and you're gonna know it's happening because you're gonna have thoughts. Thoughts that are not your thoughts that only Jesus could come up with. Only the Holy Spirit could reveal to you. And what's also going to be revealed that we haven't touched on is there's going to be or tend to be unforgiveness, bitterness, bitter there's going to be unforgiveness, bitterness, and resentment that shows up, especially if you were wronged. That this is a crucial part of the removal process because a wound will not heal if there's unforgiveness there. So can you actually speak to that real quick? Because I have found even in non-Christian personal development spaces, forgiveness is huge. But once again, everything is stolen from the Bible, anyways. So what do you have to say about unforgiveness?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:40

Yeah, unforgiveness is toxic. And the best quote is a simple one. It's like drinking poison and expecting it to harm the other person. It's like this place of control that we hold on to in order to not release them from the thing that they did. Because if I let go of it, then they let then there's no consequences for them. And we want consequences. We don't want them for ourselves necessarily, but we want to make sure that people are held to that standard of you hurt me, and now this is the result of it. But control in our own is places that we've removed control from God. And in our relationship with God, we are trusting him completely and totally. And so unforgiveness is a place where I've held this from God, saying, God, I need to hold on to this for my protection. I need to hold on to this because if I don't, it's going to happen again. And it's this place that we're not relinquishing control to him. And if we don't give him control in a place, then he doesn't have the authority because he's given us our free will. He doesn't have the ability to step in and to change that for us. Because we've said, no, this is something that I am going to deal with. And so we actually end up being in bondage to that thing. And so unforgiveness is always way more detrimental to us than it is the person that we're holding it against. And so he wants to bring us into freedom. It says, for freedom, we have been set free, that we actually in Christ are meant to walk and operate in a freedom, which means that I trust you so much, God, that I'm going to release them from my legal declaration against them, my judgment based off of what they've done. And I'm going to allow you to be the one that deals with this. That if they need to be dealt with, you're going to do it, but you're going to take care of me because I trust you completely. So the Bible's very clear. If you're going to spend time with God and you still have an offense or there's something that others someone has against you, go deal with that thing because unforgiveness is going to be a wall between us and Christ.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:45

You're also commanded to forgive. And you should repent for holding on to unforgiveness as well. And I just to summarize this and and really give people a practical application, and I'm going to reiterate some things we already talked about, is one, it's that investigation process, but two, like you said, relinquishing control to the Holy Spirit. So don't do this outside of having the Holy Spirit guide you through it. Associate into or follow those emotions back, those thought patterns back to the first time you've experienced that, or the most important, the Holy Spirit. If you have asked the Holy Spirit to reveal these things to you, don't be surprised when it gets revealed. You're back there in your mind, you're imagining uh Jesus being there and you're hearing what he would say. What is his verdict on this? You know, and in those moments, it'll be revealed to you if you're holding on to unforgiveness, right? Because you're gonna have that friction. And of course, if Jesus says, by the way, if Jesus says anything to you that's not aligned with scripture, you're making up in your own mind. So this is where this is where knowing the word is so important. Um, but releasing that unforgiveness, and even if this is a thought in your mind or you say it out loud where you're doing this, you just say, I I forgive this person in my heart. I release, I release any uh unforgiveness or bitterness. You know, it's the act of will is where it starts. And knowing that by you forgiving them, you're not condoning what they did, you're not permitting evil, correct? But you're releasing them from the apology that you think you're owed, and you're releasing them from any of those soul attachments that you had due to the trauma or the thing that happened to you. Um, and so once you do that, I think a critical thing that people miss is they stop there. So I'm gonna take this one level deeper and further. Is once you've done that, ask the Holy Spirit to help you reassess your entire life after that. Because it's connected to every moment of embarrassment, every moment of shame, every moment of pain. And yes, sometimes it'll have this domino effect that once you find the most important one that the Holy Spirit wants to reveal to you, it'll have this domino effect across your entire life. But I always encourage people, anyways, okay, now that you've had that revelation on that most important moment that needed to be addressed, and you're and you've renewed your mind in that, ask the Holy Spirit now to reintegrate that throughout your entire life. And you'll begin to see all these moments and memories where you felt a certain way that you shouldn't, or you had a limiting belief and you hesitated because you didn't think you were good enough or smart enough or capable enough. And all of a sudden you start seeing those moments through the lens of Jesus' eyes. Yeah. And it totally has it's it's so transformative. I can't, I'm I'm trying to describe a color that you haven't seen before. If if someone's listening to this like, I've never done that before. Try this and know that it will be emotional, but the way out is the way through. And you will know by the fruit. When you get done with this process, consider it a prayer or meditation. You open your eyes, you're gonna feel it. The Holy Spirit is gonna reveal to you that this is actually completed, whether that's through a physiological sensation of peace, whether that's just that deep inner knowing and that still small voice that tells you, you know what, you did this, like, and the Holy Spirit did it for you. There's gonna be a confirmation. Um, and so I just encourage people to go through that process. And maybe we'll put it in the show notes too.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

So it sounds like you're saying that unforgiveness is very pervasive and that it affects a lot more than we realize. But then when we have that freedom from it, there is something that is tangible in in other areas as well. And it should lead us to a place where it's true forgiveness that we're actually able to pray for them and to desire God's best for them, which is the exact opposite of what we wanted to do, or maybe what we still want to do in the natural, but we're moving into a place of so much trust that God's even able to do something on their behalf to bring them freedom as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:25

Yeah. And here's here's something bold for somebody to do. Uh I dare someone listening uh to sit there and pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal areas of unforgiveness. Yeah, you're gonna be surprised at what comes. And it could be something small that happened in high school. Yeah, and for some reason that that was still in your soul.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:41

You know, it may be unforgiveness against God. Maybe a place that you prayed for something, believed for something, it didn't happen the way that you expected, and you're holding that against God. And He's wanting to reveal that to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:52

What about unforgiveness towards self?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:53

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

Right? Oh, I don't deserve this now, or I can't do this. I'm I see a lot of self-punishment happening. Yeah, but we could we could listen, we always say we could do a whole episode on these things. Forgiveness is is a tremendous topic that we should talk about. Um, but hopefully that was helpful. By the way, if you love this episode and you like what we're talking about here, make sure you double tap not double tap the screen. I'm thinking it's short form content. Make sure you hit the subscribe button and like this video, share it with somebody. Um, Sam, what would you say we should leave somebody with? Like, what's the what's the tangible next step? I talk about the minimal optimal next step a lot with people. Not not what do you have to do all next week or all next month, but like what's what's that little but impactful next step for people to take from this episode?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

I would start with reading this passage and letting the truth get in you. Sit with it, read it, allow it to be that that truth, that standard that speaks to you, that you allow God to speak to you through it. Um, and then recognize that there is a different reality that he's opening up before you in terms of how you allow him to shape your thinking, your thoughts, entering into that place of forgiveness. Um, I think people get stuck a lot. And this is a really good way to get unstuck, and that's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

Yeah, and by the way, what we uh covertly just taught people how to do, whether they know it or not, is how to hold a thought captive as well, which we didn't even really mention uh explicitly. Um, most people think that holding a thought captive is just like acknowledging it that it's there and and then reciting a verse in your mind that you know is contrary to it, that's actually the truth. Um, but I would argue that you know, if you look biblically, even when someone was held captive, yeah, they were held captive for a reason. And so they're probably interrogated. Like, you know, if you have a thought that you want to hold captive that you know is coming into contradiction with what God says, ask why is it there? Right. And that's what we were talking about. That was that process of figuring out okay, where did you come from? Is it from a specific moment, a conversation, a person? Uh, what is your intention? Um, where did you come from? Why are you here? What are you doing? Like all of those things, that investigation process allows you to uncover the truth.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:01

Yep. Yeah, a thought can come in. It can be a fleeting thought, it could be from the enemy, it could be from environment, but you don't have to allow it to stay there. It should be addressed, it should be identified and like you said, questioned. Why are you here and what was your purpose? Now I've exposed that. So now I'm gonna allow God to do what he wants to do through it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:22

Yeah, it's not just about like pushing it to the side either. Like people think, oh, I'm just gonna let this thought pass. And no, no, once again, interrogate it, interrogate the thought. Like you have power and authority and dominion. Yeah, like over your you are not your thoughts, first of all. Like, yes, you're caught over your body, but you're not you're not your body, because if I cut off your arm, you'd be no less you, you know what I mean? You were you, you you were created in the image of God and you have you have been granted this power and authority through him, which comes through submission and and being obedient, which we've talked about previously as well. Um, but I think people need to step into that authority. They need to step into that victor identity out of the victim mentality and let God work through that. Um, so with that, once again, if you love, if you if you like this uh content, also leave a comment. You know, I don't always ask people, I want people to leave not just comments but questions because this this is our hope is that it's an ongoing conversation with people that has a real tangible effect on their lives. And so think about all of the things we said today. Go back and rewatch it because I know there's a lot of things to unpack there. And take at least one thing and apply it to your life today. There's gonna be something in here that someone had an aha moment, which is not just uh it's not just awe and wonder, it's also understanding, like, ah, that's awesome. But understanding, ha, I got it. Yeah. And so what was that moment for you here today? If you want to share it, share it in the comments, but definitely act on it. Right. Any closing words for us, uh Sam?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:44

Um, I just think that this is the ongoing process of transformation. And if you want to see change in your life now, this is a really good start. But if you want to see change in your family and in those that would come after you and those who you get to lead, um, whether you know you're leading or not, somebody's watching, uh, this is the way to do it. You need to start with you first, and it has an amazing impact on the people around you as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:10

Amen. So, with that, let's pray us out of here.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:13

All right. Lord Jesus, I thank you for your word, the invitation of your word to enter into a new reality where our thinking is no longer determined by our past, by our hurts, by our pain. But Lord Jesus, in you, there is a new reality, and it's through the cross. And so I pray that for anyone listening, that if their thoughts have been intermingled with questions and doubts and places of fear and anxiety, that those things would be given to you right now and that Holy Spirit, in exchange for them, that you would bring peace, you would bring joy, that there would be an excitement and an anticipation for what you're calling us into. It doesn't matter what yesterday looked like, tomorrow in you is greater than we could ever imagine. And so we thank you for what you have done and for what we get to do in walking through this place of of transformation and being uh willing to allow you to do what only you could do. In Jesus' name. Amen.