How God Actually Reveals Your Calling

How do you know God's calling for your life?

In this episode of The Fifth Gospel, we explore what it truly means to live as a witness for Jesus—understanding that many people will experience your life before they ever read the Bible.

We discuss why every testimony matters, why comparison kills purpose, how God confirms calling through community, and why obedience always starts with the next faithful step—not a perfect five-year plan.

Whether you're wondering if God has called you into ministry, business, family, or somewhere unexpected, this conversation offers practical biblical wisdom for walking in faith instead of fear.

In this episode:
* Why your testimony has incredible value
* How to discover God's calling
* Why obedience comes before clarity
* Trusting God when you don't have all the answers
* The danger of chasing platforms instead of purpose
* Confirmation through biblical community
* Faith over fear and overthinking
* Entrepreneurship and the Kingdom of God
* Marriage, calling, and living with eternal perspective
If this conversation encourages you, subscribe and share it with someone seeking God's direction.

Timestamps
00:00 Why Your Testimony Matters
00:57 What Is The Fifth Gospel?
03:19 Living as a Witness
08:41 From Deconstruction to Deeper Faith
16:10 Ministry, Calling & Ordination
20:39 Mystery vs Theology
32:33 When to Share What God Shows You
38:34 How to Know Your Calling
42:36 Trusting God's Timing
45:27 Business as Ministry
53:14 The Next Step of Obedience
01:01:07 Gideon & Overcoming Fear
01:11:09 Marriage, Faith & Unity
01:14:33 Closing Prayer

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think the most powerful part of any testimony is that it's your testimony.

SPEAKER_02 0:04

We can either do everything for the world or we can do everything for the kingdom.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

He knows how to get you to where you gotta go. That's why we can trust God. He's greater than our biggest fear, he's greater than our biggest inadequacy.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

The more obedient I am in the small things, he's able to trust me more.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

It's when you trust God that is the true essence of faith.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

He called them to do something, and they said yes. And sometimes it is as simple as that.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

So we started off this podcast a couple episodes ago saying it's a bad day for the devil when we're meeting here. And I I think even more so today, it's a bad day for the devil because we have two pastors. I'm just a guy. I'm gonna try to mediate and keep you guys under control a little bit, but uh I'm I'm happy to be here with the two of you. It's really an honor. And I haven't known you guys too, too long. Um, but I know this can be a good conversation. The way we tend to start off, uh Christian, is you know, this is the fifth gospel, and I always try to remind the person listening of kind of that proclamation of what it means to be the fifth gospel, because we do not we know that there's a heretical version of of that term. We look at we look at it as hey, you are the fifth gospel, people are gonna read you um many times more often uh before they read the Bible itself. You're gonna be the gospel that people witness. So to you, when you hear the the term fifth gospel, what does that mean to you in context to how I just described it?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Right. So I think I love the idea of witness. Like I'm more of a I know in scripture the Great Commission, which is like gone to all the world, preach the gospel, do all those things. I I like rather the concept of that we are God's witness to the world through how we live. And so I think of when I think of the fifth gospel, I think of like the prophets who went out and declared and bear witness to the truth in the midst of worlds that were very much contrasting that. And so I think when I hear that, I love the concept that I'm a mirror to what I believe. And people look at me and they see, hopefully they're seeing what's actually real, what's actually true. And that will then lead them into the deeper things of God, the deeper things that I want to get to talk to. Because I'm usually someone who I don't like small talk generally. I'm usually I like to get to the heart of the matter, but you have to start somewhere with someone. And generally how you treat someone the first time, like those first impressions are gonna be what they what's the launching pad for them to know God or to to walk totally away from him if you're if you're being a jerk, you know, which I think C.S. Lewis said something really cool. He's like, he's like, you you when you when you interact with someone, you're either leading them closer to God or and to who they're really meant to be, truly, or further away to becoming something that they were never meant to be. Like sometimes that's the only the only thing that people have is is how we interact with them. Yeah. So I think I I love the uh the name of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Yeah, and and I I know that when I met you guys for the first time, that had already been on my mind, this idea of living the gospel, and as it is, as it should be for any mature Christian, but like you guys actually do live it out, and it's cool to see that in real time and and become friends with you guys and get involved in the gathering here in the Hudson Valley. It's really beautiful. So thank you for that, and thank you for uh for being on today. What's if if we if I were to ask you to even if we sound like a broken record here, to reiterate that proclamation that we have every time on the fifth gospel, I want you to remind the listener again why why it is that we're here and why it is they should be listening to this episode.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Yeah, I personally love the title of the fifth gospel, even though you know firsthand that I push back on it initially because I was like, all right, fifth gospel, that sounds like it's heretical. Let me look that up and see what it is. I'm like, oh, okay, there is an actual fifth gospel. But I like that it's thought provoking. But uh the simple truth is that sometimes your life is going to be the only gospel, or at least the first gospel that somebody reads. You're gonna be, as Christian said, the introduction to faith in God, especially if they know you're a Christian, the way that we live, the way that we actually uh not just read but recognize the truth of scripture and apply it to our lives. It's meant to be our light that shines before all men that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father that is in heaven. And so it's the expression of I believe in this so much that I want other people to know about it as well. And I'm not gonna start by preaching at them, but I'm gonna start by living it out. Yeah, and there is no truth that is greater than the truth of what we have in Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Amen. Yeah, and it is so cool because actually, this is you're the first official guest. Yeah, welcome. Yeah, actually. I think Sam was like kind of the first official guest and then became the host, and now we have, you know, so funny how that works. Yeah, I'm just poaching people to like take over the podcast. Entrepreneurial spirit. So I had sent you some questions before before we got on, and I shared those questions with uh Sam. The first one was kind of about your testimony and your journey and your faith. And you kind of described uh more of a slow progression rather than like this road to Damascus moment. Yeah, no. So can you tell us?

SPEAKER_00 5:11

It's the the kid that grew up in church, their biggest plight is that they don't have the drug addict on the side of the road moment where their life totally changes. So now it's like you're radical and you're on fire and you have this line of demarcation where it's like I was lost, but now I'm found. And and and I know Sam is definitely gonna feel the same way. It's like when you're when you've been steady throughout your whole life and you really haven't wavered in some really radical ways with believing in God, it be it everything becomes like almost, you have to get real down to the very nitty-gritty. And things get real instead of these large brush strokes of a testimony, they become really atomized, like really small. And for my life for sure, like it's never, I've never had a moment where I didn't believe in God, you know, from from young age, like really young, the concept of who God was. It was more about how how does this all work? So it's like you can believe in God, but then how do you actually interact as a messenger of God, as a believer in God, as a child of God, all the different monikers and and like roles that we have. And for me, finding my way through that has been probably my the biggest story that I have to tell, which I think, you know, as a young, young person, I'm like, well, is it really worth telling if it's not as exciting, right? It's not a super exciting story, but I think it is because I think a lot of kids grow up in a in a faith-believing household, and they don't think that they have really anything to share with anyone because it's like I just have done the normal, it's been normal, it's normalized, it's familiar. Um, so yeah, so I I I yeah, how how I walked through this faith is the story that the testimony story. And I know I I think I texted you, I'm like, I'm not the powerful testimony. No, but at all.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

That is powerful. It's like I think I think too many people discredit that testimony because it's not some big conversion moment wrote to Damascus moment, but like the fact that God kept you and like in even in the normal seat, yeah, and here you are a pastor, like that's that's powerful to me, you know. I appreciate that. And I think more people who have a similar testimony need to recognize the power in that testimony. Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah, and I think the most powerful part of any testimony is that it's your testimony. Like you have a testimony in which God placed you in a family, God placed me in a family that we were blessed to have a grandmother, a mother, and father that had gone before us who actually knew Jesus and taught us what it meant to walk with Jesus. And so to not be pride, proud in a in a humble way. Can you be proud in a humble way? To not be like grateful for your testimony that God gave you. Like this is what God gave you. And are you faithful with it? Right. And you've been faithful with it, and you have a different dynamic, knowing you your whole life, which is why I was really excited to have you on the podcast, is because the way that you look at the world is different. You see the world in a way that is unique from me, but you see it through the lens still of your belief in God, your understanding of who God is. But there's also a depth there that I think you've cultivated really well. And so part of your testimony is the cultivation of that deep hunger and desire for more as you've known God and haven't questioned God, but it's developed something inside of you that has solidified a belief system that gives you an authority when you speak on certain things. I appreciate it. So I'm a fan of his testimony.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Well, think about how many people think about how many people have like went astray and they they were brought up in the faith and then deconstructed exactly.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Which I think uh, you know, I mean, if I if you wanted to get into, I guess briefly I could say what the testimony kind of is, at least what I wrote to you. Um it it I was very lost in my teenage years, as most people are. You know, it's like whether it was it was heart rejection, it was identity issues, it was I don't know what to do with my life. If you come out of college and you anyone who's come out of college and not knowing what to do with their life, you feel like you're just like roaming. So I felt like a balloon just floating in the atmosphere kind of thing. Um and long story short, I ended up at this church in Las Vegas, and I was doing a ministry school there, and they were very, very sincere people, but highly, highly charismatic in, I think a way that was overboard in terms of how they believed in prophets, they believed in the gifts, but they had very little biblical understanding and grounding. And I got swept up in that, and God did a lot of awesome transformation through them and and really cool moments, moments of difficulty, like tears on the on the carpet, just by myself and God, and it's a lot of things wrestling within me. Um, and what happened was that church ended up failing and kind of falling apart for different reasons. And I left there in 2020 and then COVID, right? So, like you just throw COVID on anything and it'll just explode. And so I ended up coming back home to here and I I deconstructed, I think, for a month, you know, honestly. I still believed in God, but I'm like, I don't know what's true. Like I had these experiences. I don't know if I I wouldn't call it church hurt, but I had these experiences where this didn't feel like the fullness of Christianity in my belief. I believe in God, but I don't know where to go. And so I was just kind of like, I didn't, I was everywhere. I was really everywhere for that. Like it was kind of like a twister in that moment. And I was trying to figure out what direction I was supposed to go in. And then I headed in the exact opposite direction of that charismatic. I went very much into the theological church history, systematic understanding, and began to really doubt most of the stuff that I went through in my in the non-denominational space. And I was, I was definitely, there's a there's a really cool stereotype, a funny stereotype about people that go to seminary. The you know the the people that have been in seminary for like a year when they're the ones arguing about the silliest stuff, like the most basic stuff, just to prove to you that they know something. And so that was me. I went to totally the other direction and I was like, well, this is not true, and that's not true. And slowly, just you know, again, this is the normalcy of it. I think God brought me to the middle of a deep rich belief in the spirit and it's moving, and a deep rich belief in the grounding of the scriptures and what church history believes, and merging them both into this thing where I'm now like, I feel like I'm both mystical and at the same time like breaking down philosophical stuff and understanding how you know how the church has talked about these things, and God's brought me on this interesting journey that I think I I think is partially. I appreciate what my brother said before about I believe that there's a part of this that is very much needed in today's understanding, and it helps us balance, you know, the way different ways of Christianity that we're trying to walk through as like as the Western church. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

I mean, I mean I'm interested to hear as his brother from the outside. Maybe not knowing everything about his testimony, but like seeing it from the outside. What did you perceive in your brother as he went through his walk?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah, I I actually felt like I was learning a little bit as I read your response to the question in terms of some of that process because some of it was taking place uh with a distance in the in the natural. Yeah. Because he was in Las Vegas, I was in New York. So I was the age difference, by the way, for residents.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

And you're older by nine. So you're 30 and you're 39. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Stop trying to tell everybody my age. I'm just here to provide content. You just doxed him right there. So um, yeah, so I didn't see all of that that was going on.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

And so there was a definite difference. Because how old were you when you went out there?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

I went out there and I was around 21. So I went there in 2017. So I was I was young.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

So, like 2021, you go out there. I'm already nine years older. At that point, I'm already married for five years. Yeah. Um, and there was a distance in terms of our age because by the time I was in high school, he was still a kid.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

By the time I moved out, uh, you were 11, 12 years old. So, like, um, and then he goes to Las Vegas and I see what he's doing out there, and I'm like, oh, that's really cool. He's involved in this, he's going to ministry school. Um, and definitely when you came back, there was a difference. Yeah, not just the tattoos. I got a lot, all my tattoos in Bible college, which is funny. He comes back and don't talk to him about tattoos. We're gonna go on a rabbit trip. Anti-tattoo, he had a tattoo removal company. But we don't we don't have time for that today. That's on the previous episode. Amazing. So uh he comes back and definitely more of a depth and a theological understanding than I knew that he had before, and maybe that developed while he was out there. But what I saw was that as a as a kid, he was the most joyful. Like we would sit around the dinner table and we would laugh until stuff would start coming out of our nose. Like it was just so joyful. Like it was this beautiful time with our sister, our mom and dad. And so I really appreciated that. He came back with a little bit more of a serious nature, though. And so there was that period of time where I feel like you were a little bit more critical, a little bit more, but also having a deeper understanding. Yeah, and so uh we got to know each other again when he moved back, and I tricked him to come into the church and to work at the church for a little while because post post-COVID we were renovating the the sanctuary, and I was like, bro, I need some help. So I was like, if I get him in the doors, if I could just get him in the doors, maybe I could get him to come on staff. And and eventually that happened. Not that you were tricked to become a fine.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Well, I remember you calling me in Vegas one time, and you're like, There might be some rumblings of me moving into a new position, and we need a new youth pastor. And I said no. Yep, which is my favorite story to tell people because they always laugh at that. Because I'm like, I didn't, I didn't want to, I wanted to do something else. Um, but God had already been working on my heart, and I was already like, I saw what was happening in Sam's mind for the church, and I was like, I do want to be a part of that, and I want to support him in that. And I just wanted, you know, God, if this is it, and I just kind of jumped into it. Um, funny story, the my now wife did not like me when we first met. And one of the first initial response uh in like when I met her, she was, you were just leaving youth group and you're heading into this new position. And I walked in, and she's like, You were the cockiest, cockiest dude walking in here, which probably was there's some degree of like, she's it's some degree of like my brother just had this thing, now I gotta make it my own. And there probably was some uh some latent competition in there. But I remember her saying that and and enough to say mellowed out totally.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah, so much to the fact that they're married now. So that's a good thing. But it's funny, the things that you say no to are often the things that God's like, oh yeah, you're not gonna do that thing, and then and then God has a way of moving us into a place of now, and he's our youth pastor and does an incredible, incredible job, and not just our youth pastor, but our spiritual formation pastor.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Um wait, so so real quick, I imagine that this is obviously incorrect, but like you become a pastor. I'm picturing like there's a sword involved and you knight him, yeah, or is it just like exactly what happened? What goes on behind the scenes when someone becomes a pastor?

SPEAKER_00 16:26

First, there's a trial that you have to pass, and then you gotta you know answer a question of three, and then it's sword.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

But how seriously, how does that come about when you when someone's gonna become a pastor at church like the gathering? Is it just a conversation? You're like, uh, sign here.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah, so the so in full transparency, a lot of what we have done in the gathering from the beginning has been just God leading us, us saying yes, and moving into it. Now, I think that as we move farther down this road, we've become more aware of the the need for structure, the need for doing things in a certain way. Um, and to make sure that in the process of leading from, you know, there's three different levels, technically, at least in our context of ordination, there's you become certified, you become licensed, and you become ordained. And it's more of a structured process. We didn't really do that within the gathering. But when there is the call to ministry, when there is a devotion to a life following God, and then really important to me, the biblical understanding of truth and the ability to stand on that, to teach, to preach, to be able to bring this word uh and to communicate it, those are the main standards in terms of ordination. So Christian very naturally fit those those gift sets. Um, and we are ordained him within the church. So uh, so no swords involved. No swords involved. But but I will say, just in full disclosure, like as we move forward, this process of ordination is becoming more and more specific. And we're launching a ministry school in September. And so we're making sure that as we're moving into this, that there are clear guidelines, would you say?

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Um, necessities, requirements that are moving into it. So uh, but calling is a big part of it. Yeah. And that would be a whole nother, I think, episode of what is calling look like. We have we have young guys in the church that come up to me one on Sunday, like, how do you know you were called to ministry? And like, that's that's a deep thing. That's not just like a, oh yeah, you just wake up one day and all of a sudden you have this call. I believe and what I answered him is that there's a process of what God does in you in drawing you into that place, knowing that there's a huge responsibility that goes along with it. And scripture tells us that if you're gonna teach the word, if you're gonna be one who is a teacher of the word, that you are putting yourself in a position where there's a high accountability of you. Um, and there's gonna be a lot that's uh that's expected of you in that position. So um that's a long way of answering the question.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

No, I I I appreciate that because in all seriousness, I I imagine it's uh a difficult thing when it's family involved too. There's probably some internal resistance and and maybe things that you don't want to offend somebody with, with what you're feeling about a specific situation. Then you have like the calling of God on it. Like my I guess my question in that is like, did you have like a supernatural moment? Or you know, we talk about hearing from God previously. I think people search for that because it in my own experience, like most of the time it's discernment and God speaking through that. But then occasionally, maybe once a decade, it's like, wow, the audible voice of God or a dream or something like that, you know, like and this just happened, and this just happened recently. A really cool uh testimony to God answering prayers. I've been questioning, not questioning from a negative perspective, but just wanting confirmation that doing things like this podcast, doing uh content uh that's faith-based is the direction I'm supposed to go in because I I gave up a lot to do that, not it's by the power of Jesus, not my own accord. I I delayed in that. But I asked God for confirmation recently. And a few days ago I was praying. I said, God, if I'm on the right path, can you have a podcast host reach out to me and ask me to be on their podcast? But not anybody, like I wanted it to be a well-known Christian podcaster. Last night or yesterday, I get a message from a Christian podcaster who has a million subscribers on YouTube that says, Hey brother, uh, would love to have you on the podcast. And that was like a clear God answering a prayer, conform confirming a direction moment for me. Yeah, that doesn't seem to be the norm though.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

For you You only get one in this lifetime. You wait, you use it on that.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

So for you, like how what is that pro what is that process? If there is one, has there been super? Because I think if I remember back to you sharing a little bit about your testimony before the show, it's like you described it as like theological but mystical as well. Yeah, you define mystical too.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

I like, yeah. Well, I mean, mystical is just mystery, right? And so um there's a lot, one of the problems with going super heady, super cerebral, and and our modern world is that we don't like mystery. Like there's this human perspective, the secular human perspective that if we can define everything, categorize everything, put everything in a nice, neat system, a little box, then then we'll have mastery over all the elements of the world. And it's just turns out that there are there's more things we don't know than the things that we will ever possibly know. And the idea of being mystical is kind of like you're you you walk in to a space or or like a church, and you're just like, Lord, I I I have the small amount of understanding. I understand this much, and some of us understand a lot, but there's still so much I don't know, and there's still so much you want to show me, and there's still so much that can happen that I can't necessarily always explain, which is as Christians, as believers in God, that's that's at the heart of our belief is like you can't scratch the surface on how deep, how rich God is. He's revealed amazing things, and we stand on those revealed things. But it's also like God's got far more in how the Holy Spirit wants to maneuver. And so, so the idea of being mystical is like, is simply admitting I can create all the systems I want, and they're always going to leave something out. There's always going to be some understanding that I don't get. And what actually is, this is why, like we were talking before about books that Christians should read. G.K. Chesterton has a book called Orthodoxy. And in Orthodoxy, he makes the statement saying, it's the mystery that keeps man sane. That people don't go crazy because there's so much that they don't know. People go sane and morbid in their mind and like in this day and age, they have meaningless lives, purposeless lives, because they try to take the whole of the universe and shove it into a small little box. And we can't handle that. We can't handle that in our mind. We can't handle that in our souls. Our souls need to have this understanding that there's something bigger than us. We're small and there's something bigger. And so that's something that's really impacted me. And so anytime, you know, that yeah, you try to be like, I have this down pat, it's kind of like the Socratic method where it's like you recognize there's more that I don't know than I know. And it keeps you humble. And in that humility, you can actually hear and see God. And so I think even in what we were saying, like, how did how do you know that you're supposed to be a pastor? It comes at there's there's some degree, you have to surrender, even if you don't know what you're surrendering to in terms of what God's asking you to do, surrendering what you can determine and how you think things need to go for the big unknown of how God sees things needing to go, then there comes to be like a direction. So I didn't have this, the heavens opened, but in Las Vegas, there was a moment where I truly surrendered and said, Lord, it's gotta be whatever it is you're saying it. This, this, whatever this journey is, it's gotta be you. And I don't know what it looks like. And then the walk of faith is taking steps and then it slowly gets revealed. And what slowly became revealed is being a youth pastor, which I never would have like obviously I would have rejected it immediately. But he had to get, he had to kind of break me down to the point where that was what I knew, and I had to stop leaning on all the things I thought I could figure out and all those things, and and give them to God and then walk in that direction. I don't know if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

But And there it's interesting because I went back to the youth group. It was a couple of months ago now, but it was on the four-year anniversary of me stepping into the lead pastor position. Yeah. So I walked into this youth group and I see uh Christian wasn't there, you were on your honeymoon, and I see what has been developed in these years with Christian as the youth pastor. And I'm like, the things that he is doing are better and different than what I would have done in this position. But God has used his life and his leadership to be able to establish things in this young generation at a critical time that I wasn't meant to do, that he was meant to do. So it's been really cool to see that. But you shared with me one time that there was like a shift that took place after you had already said yes, you had moved into that position, yeah, but there was like this change of mindset that you were like, oh, there was something that that changed within you in terms of the way that you saw that position. Do you remember telling me that?

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think uh part of it was like there are moments of youth pastoring that's not fun. Many, many moments, and many moments, which is why I think it's really valuable that if you're gonna be a pastor, you work with kids first because that will help you uh prepare you for when people are not fun. Yeah, because kids are not fun and older people are not fun.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

That's why I did it for 15 years.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yeah. And it builds something inside of you. And I think I I began to look at it and God just began to shift my mindset. There are hard moments in it, but then there began to be a genuine love and love for the kids, a genuine love and desire for the next generation, and and also like an understanding of what youth ministry is. Like youth ministry, it's a it's an investment more than it is like it's not a reaping ministry, it's an investment ministry. You invest your life being a witness, you you being the fifth gospel to these kids who some of them probably can't even read nowadays. But you know, I'm saying you, you, you're you're that's not a joke, unfortunately. That's not a joke, unfortunately. And so, but you're investing your life, they're looking at you constantly, they're they're they're seeing how you live, and then they go away. Yeah, they graduate. And you're what you're trying to do as a youth pastor is not to have maybe these awesome moments of like, oh, they're super excited. What you're trying to do is like like in 15 years, I want a youth kid to come back to me and say, hey, like I'm still following Jesus. Yeah. And it's in it's in a small part or a big part due to the fact that you were my youth pastor. That's like the that's the goal, right? And we know that God keeps them and God moves them, but that's actually the whole point of the ministry. And if you're looking for that thank you now from teenagers, you are insane. You're insane. It's never, you're gonna burn out. And I was burning out and because I and so many different things. And then I began to have this perspective of like, no, this is this is for the future. And that so so do this as if you are investing for something intangible in 50 years. Yeah, and that's that's actually where the success lies. So just keep day after day just going after it, believing that that's where the success lies. And sometimes they surprise you, but mostly it's it's a future thing. And that's I think that's a lot of stewarding. That's the heart of stewardship.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Is you do it for the future you and the future use to come after you, and it does and remain faithful in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

That's why it's really helpful to know that you're called in those moments that are so challenging, because you want to know that what you're doing now matters and having that future view of the investment now really matters. But knowing the call, knowing that God has called you to that position, and I think that probably applies to any area of ministry. Yeah. And I think people sometimes will look at maybe they'll go to church on Sunday and they'll look at somebody preaching and they're like, Oh, that's really cool. Yeah, I want to do that thing. But if you're not called into ministry, if you're not called into that position, first of all, you don't understand everything that goes into it. And it's much more than you would ever realize if you're just listening to someone preach a message. But also the gift that is on your life as someone called to ministry is specifically for that thing. And so there has to be a grace that is given for what you've been called to do. Yeah. And so that's why if you're called to the business realm, you need to be obedient to go into the business realm. If you're called to the political realm, if you're called to the family realm, if you're called to meeting entertainment, be faithful to where God has called you to be and know that there is a grace for you in that place and that space of influence. Um, but if it is ministry, yeah, then don't try to do something else. Don't try to do something else. I mean, unless you're called to be bi vocational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But go to the place that God has called you to be in. But that isn't always discovered overnight. No. It's not you get out of high school, you get out of college, and like, oh yeah, this is what I'm supposed to do with my life. Right. But there is a journey that God is moving you in and on towards where he's called you to be.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

So if we were to look at this diagnostically, as I like to do, which maybe it's my own fault sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

No, it's it's what helps this podcast have some meaning.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Because it always it always sounds good to me. It's like, oh yeah, just if you know you're calling, do that thing, right? But like how? Like what like for the person listening who might be struggling with like they they feel that urge, uh still small voice telling them which way to go. Yeah, how do you act like what are the practical things to look at in your life? Are there practical steps we can take to confirm that calling? And I know we did a little bit about the a conversation about this previously. Actually, I'd like to hear from your brother because I and before you answer this question, is there still any angst or frustration between the knowable and the unknowable for you? Meaning like the theology and the mysticism is not the right word, but you get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 30:00

No, not a thousand percent. Yeah, because uh and I think there always will be because every level of growth you hit, you hit the places where you exhaust how much you can figure something out, right? So if you're a musician, you're gonna get to different layers where it's just like there's something else that stumps you. There's victories that you have at the end where you're like, I can't believe I finally mastered this. And then when you look over the horizon, it's another level, another mastery. And and there's parts of you for sure that I'm like, man, I wish, and what where it comes up now is like, I wish I could explain the sensation or this the thought I'm having about this thing. But sometimes when you try to express the mystery, it comes off like all jumbled. It comes out, and you're just like, I wish I could just write it out like a math uh equation, and it come out and it makes sense to people and it changed their lives, right? That's what I wish. But I think what happens if that's how things actually worked, where you just like it, you would treat God like the pagans treated their gods, which was like, I can do these things and I can get what I need, and it's like a vending machine. Like you, it's a very transactional relationship. The mysteries of God come out through more of the relational aspect, because God doesn't just want to reveal mysteries to you so that you can, you know, go be a star and go make a name for yourself because that would destroy you. God wants to release mysteries to you because there's trust involved. Like he's trusted you with the sacred things, these things that are hidden so that he can give it to a mature believer, because he only wants to give you things that are going to build you up. But in my own sense, for sure, like I'm like, if I'm sensing something, I'm like, I want to be able to express this and explain this as clearly as possible, but that's not always in your wheelhouse to do, you know, and some things, like even the Apostle Paul, like the Apostle Paul, there are things he writes in the book, which is kind of like you never had one of those moments where you're gonna, you're like, you're gonna go say something and you're like, nah, I'm not gonna say it. And everyone around you is like, you can't tempt us like that. There are things where Apostle Paul is like, there are things in which I experience that I'm not permitted to say. And you're like, why did you mention it? But that's how sometimes it is. And that's actually even harder because he didn't just mention it, he was writing it.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's like they're reading this letter, and you get to this point, like, wait, wait, wait. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Also, most of the time he was articulating it to someone who was writing it down. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yeah, but it's but it's there. There's always there's a record of there of him taking kind of taking back what he was just saying. He's like, I could tell you, but I won't. Which is which is also then this this is where I would almost ask you guys too. There are probably times where you're tempted to turn whatever thing you got from God or some whether mystery or sense into content immediately. How do you fight the temptation? Because now it's like you're in the podcast game, and everything you do can have an immediate return if it's salacious enough or interesting enough. And so you have a moment where you feel like you got a revelation from the Lord from reading the scriptures, from listening to someone. How do you not immediately take that and then make a video about it? Because that's a temptation. Yeah, because there could be money involved in that too, you know? So that's it's like the same thing, except there's always gonna be that temptation to take what was said in secret and maybe say it too soon.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Yeah, you know, that's a great question because I don't know about you, but I've been doing content for a long time and a variety of different topics, and now specifically in the Christian realm, what God has revealed to me is usually not yet, right? As far as timing. Like, yes, you feel this thing, you understand this thing in your spirit, but I there's a maturity that needs to happen. And also I think some things that we understand are not necessarily supposed to be revealed publicly because they're gonna fall on either deaf ears or people who don't have it's like what we said before we got on here. It's like when your kid asks you like how babies are made when they're too young, yeah. There's a time, there's a time to reveal that information. So I kind of go that's how I approach content specifically.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

I think I just have a sense in my time with God where it's just for me and him, and it's not meant to be brought out because especially now this podcast is a new forum to be able to speak, but we don't always end up speaking about what we plan on speaking about anyway. But like when I'm preparing a message that Sunday, when I am gonna be speaking on Wednesday, I'm gonna be speaking on Sunday, I'm gonna be speaking another time, like it would be really easy to take the latest thing that I feel like God revealed and put that in message form immediately. But there are certain things that I just have a sense this is not for a message, this is for us. So there's still things that I'm sitting on, still things that maybe they'll come out in in our men's group, and they won't come out because I feel that there's a freedom to share it there. But it's just that that understanding of the Holy Spirit, what is intimate, what's between me and him, and what's for the greater public. And so obviously there are things that we'll speak about with our wives that we won't speak about with anybody else because we understand there's an intimacy there. And to share something out of that place of intimacy would actually be a betrayal. And I've done it before, I know I have, yeah, but it's interesting from a preaching context. I often will be in the middle of saying something and I'm having an internal dialogue of should I say that or should I not say that? And sometimes I will say it because I know I have the freedom to do so. Yeah, and then often I'll eat it, and other times I'll blow right through the stop sign and I'm like apologizing to the Holy Spirit coming out of my mouth, and I'm like, oh man, but yeah, yeah. I I I I will say more often than not, yeah, when I feel that check, when I'm about to say something, I take that responsibility really seriously. Yeah, I'll eat it. Yeah. Even if I think it's something I prepared for, I made this point, I had this analogy, I'm excited to bring it, and I'm like, all right, not right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's how that place of relationship.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

But that's it. It's like I think it's that's one of the big temptations. And this is why the book of Genesis is one of the most dense in terms of meaning. Is I was even talking about a formation class or our Sunday school, was part of the thing of the snake tempting Eve was to have something far before it was time. Like this knowledge, you know, way before it was time. And there's this, and it, and it the problem is the temptation is so alluring because you have this thing that feels like, oh, it feels so pertinent, it feels so vital, feels so like this could this could raise my status in some degree, even if it's just between two people, right? Even if it's like a joke at someone's expense. You're like, everyone, if everyone laughs, then and maybe I just have to sacrifice the one friend I have, you know. Yeah, but that I'll do it because there's something inside of me that thrives and feeds off it, which is the immature thing. But that but that pattern, right, still exists in our lives. We're still tempted with the same thing. Yeah. Um, and and it only gets worse when money's involved. It only gets worse when when when there can be fame involved. There, you know, and we would we sacrifice a lot of things probably for that. But I love because I was when you were talking, I felt the same thing was like the vulnerability, the intimacy. Like there's there's some there's something between me and God that do I value that thing between me and God more than I value what I could get out of sharing it prematurely.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Yeah, you know, short-term gain versus eternal reward. Yeah, and we were talking about that earlier today. Like, if we had a better understanding of what the eternal reality is gonna look like, yeah, we would live this life so differently. Yeah, because that is forever. Our minds just can't comprehend something outside of this time and space that we live in. And if we had that understanding, we would be much more uh, I want to say we would be wiser stewards of what we have right now, yeah, because we know that it actually is producing something for eternity. So is it worth it to do the thing or say the thing that's gonna get the instant result, instant um feedback from people, whether it's like, shares, follows, whatever it is, or uh is it more important for me to honor God and to make sure that what I'm doing is from a place of intimacy? And that's something that I think I need a daily reminder of. I think not that I'm trying to share stuff all the time and put it out there, but like every decision I make, every response I have, it's an opportunity for God to be a part of it, for me to grow closer to Him, or to it's an opportunity for me to feed my flesh and to feel better in the moment, yeah, physically speaking. So that's a good, it's a really good question.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Yeah, it's a great question. And I want to I want to make sure we close a loop here for the listener who's like he asked two pastors about how to figure out their calling and they haven't answered that yet. So I if we were to be diagnostic about it.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

About the calling part.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

About the calling part. How does someone even begin to recognize their calling? And is there a way to have conversation?

SPEAKER_00 38:52

And you're just talking about calling in anything.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Yeah, let's let's start, let's start high level.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Okay, I think we're gonna get if we'll just get really, I guess, systematic about it, right? So it's we'll it's pinpointing what what is inside of you that comes out like naturally. So because God, so if we're all part of the body, you're become a Christian, you're all you're a part of the body, one's a hand, one's a foot. There's the there's the this is gonna sound stupid, it's the the handness or the footness inside of you, right? It's there's something inside of you that is comes out most often.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Utility, would that be?

SPEAKER_00 39:28

It could be utility, it could be like, so I had I had people, and people, and here's the thing, like whatever comes outside of you, people notice it and they remark on it. That's always a good sign, you know, it's not always the the be all and end all. But I had people when I in high school that are not high school, when I went to private school, and I would take my faith seriously and I would talk about the Bible stuff, and people be like, Oh, I think you're gonna be a pastor one day. That in that is a very easy way to kind of see people are noticing something I'm giving off naturally. I'm not putting on a face, it's just naturally this is coming out. And so, so I think sometimes with our with our what we're called to, we can begin to see where is there at very least an inkling and then how we perceive things, how we go about things, how we, how we, what do we respond to, what breaks our heart, what makes us happy. There are different things naturally that if we can begin to look at them and see in situations what comes out, we can begin to see where where perhaps has God placed inside of us values that could be utilized in a specific vocation. You know, whether you're someone, so uh if you're on the street and you're always feeling a tug on you to talk to someone, to see how they're doing, to go out of your way to engage with them. There might be the the inklings of an evangelistic thing. If you if you're constantly like torn apart by when those commercials come on, you know, whether it's for the I hate the ones with the animals, but whether it's the ones for the animals or it's the ones for, you know, feeding children starving children, if there's an inkling that comes out of you and you're like, I need to go do something about that, you know, maybe that's the ink, the the seedlings of a missionary or you know, art artist stuff. Like, so there's talents that have been seeded inside of all of our personalities in some way, shape, or form that get awoken as we experience the outside world and things come. Most of the time when challenges come, we'll definitely see that. But even when good times come, so I think one, you have to learn to be aware and in tune enough to see what are the fruits that come out of my life naturally. And then the next part of that is when you begin to tailor that and you begin to see, okay, how to like ask people about it, people you trust, people that are in some way intuitive, and do they is there any confirmation? Right? Is there any confirmation from the people in your life? This is why we need to be communal because we don't want to just be like, well, I had a great thought, so I'm a prophet. You if no one, if you're one, if no one, if no prophecies that you actually engage with impact the body in any way, and no one would even think uh you're a pro like, then you're probably just in your own delusional world. So we need to be in community, and so there's almost like a giving out and then a reception and a feedback, and we and we slowly get, I think, tailored to see what it is I'm called for. And then yeah, there's the there's a deep aching. What what aches? What deeply aches in our hearts, and then what opportunities arise because of that aching. And then obviously all that is umbrellaed by the idea that we're you you're in communion with God and say, God reveal it, but oftentimes these are the ways God reveals it. It's in these natural ways. Yeah. And so I would say at the very base level, that is a good way to begin to get on the road and see what could it possibly be.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Because I would say to your point too, neither one of us set out to become pastors. No, we are not pastors because we grew up in a Christian household. No. And neither one of us started thinking, like, I wanted to be on the Yankees. I wish that I would have started thinking about golf about 30 years ago, but that's a that's a sidetrack because I was never going to be on the Yankees. But and Christian shared his testimony. But we didn't say, Oh, okay, that seems like a good career option. But what I want to point to is that when God is the one who calls you, we have to trust that he knows better than us and he also has the ability to draw us into the places where he's calling us into. And sometimes we put too much faith in ourselves and in our responsibility to figure it out, and not enough faith in his ability to draw those things out of us, to uh put those things within us that we ache for, that we yearn for, that we desire, and then to open the doors in front of us. I started preaching because I had a pastor who said, Hey, I believe that you're supposed to do this. And they and she opened the door and gave me an opportunity to do it. Yeah. And I resisted it at first. I was like, I don't enjoy this. I'm not good at this. This is not what I meant for. But it was a journey. And so the calling, regardless of where God's calling you to, is very rarely going to happen overnight. There may be a moment of recognition that comes like that. Like I Was given the opportunity to preach, did it, didn't really love it. But over the course of probably two or three years, there was this conversation I was having with a friend of mine. And I remember being on the ski lift in Colorado, going up the mountain, and something just awoken in me in the midst of that conversation. I was like, oh, this is what I am meant for. This is what I desire to do. Now I could look at that moment and say, that was that divinely orchestrated moment, but I would fail to see the journey that led me there. Oh, yeah. So, regardless of where God's calling you, pay attention to the journey that He's brought you on. Pay attention to what He's been speaking along the way. And so it will highlight giftings and abilities and things that people recognize. Um, but ultimately trust that God is the one who's gonna reveal it. And that when he desires to do something, the Bible says that his word does not return to him void. It does not come back to him until it accomplishes that which it was set forth to do. And so if he speaks something over you, trust that he's gonna bring you into it. Yeah. It doesn't mean sit around and do nothing, right? Be obedient with where he's called you to be, but trust that he's gonna open up those doors. And like I'd be interested in hearing your story because you're very entrepreneurial. You've stepped into some places and you've had success and God has blessed those things. So like it probably wasn't something that you woke up one day and you're like, hey, this is what I'm gonna set out to do. Yeah, and yet God has led you, and he's still continuing to do that, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, you made some great points too before I answer that question. I want to say the two things that came to mind that I think are important from a practical standpoint are like seek wise counsel, right? Whether it's from your pastor, but second, and I know you're passionate about this, is like actually be involved in church and surrounding a community. And so that's where actually it was revealed to me that I need to start pursuing my entrepreneurial gifts for the kingdom rather than just in the worldly economy. Yeah. When I started surrounding myself with Christian people, um mature Christians, people who had walked the walk already, um, and started getting more involved at the church. It that revealed to me these inclinations that I had towards entrepreneurship, business, systems, um, idea generation, and then using that, sanctifying it, consecrating it for God, right? And so it was, it was like I was brought up in an entrepreneur household. My parents were both entrepreneurs. Um, obviously, through modeling them and and learning from them um through osmosis, you a lot of the times was was how it manifested in my life. And then I realized that we can either do everything for the world or we can do everything for the kingdom. Um, and obviously we live in the world and uh we we operate in in an economy and systems and capitalism, um, and there's a need to generate money and income. Yeah, but I I felt called uh to do it specifically for uh for the faith. So to answer your question, um I looking it's only in hindsight that I can see now that the things that I was involved in, even some very secular, and we've talked about this before, new age things, we're all kind of leading me to this place of understanding now and how it applies uh in my Christian walk. So um thank you for the the context on on the diagnostic way to figure out calling.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Everything is seeds, right? Yeah, everything is seeds. And uh at some point, whether it's prior to our birth, some things get seeded in us prior to our birth, somehow, some way, some things get seeded to us because of what environment we grow up in, right? So nature and nurture both working together. Uh, and but sometimes they're they're just different plants, right? So they come up in different ways, they they grow in different ways, and and how we utilize them comes from the wisdom of the one who gave them, gave the gifts to us. And I think I love that you had already seen the gift working inside of you and the calling working inside of you, and then it just needed to be baptized. And when it was baptized, now it can now it becomes something fresher and newer, and you know the one who planted it in you. So now you can actually utilize it for the purpose it was meant to be utilized for. Absolutely. There's probably there's probably so many seeds and plants that have been that are grown that are just waiting to be baptized so that they can then actually do for the purpose that they were meant to be brought out for. And then that's when the harvest comes in all these things.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

So that's the other thing too, is like I feel like the the longer you go on in your walk with God and you're able to look back retroactively and in hindsight and you realize that he was working it all out anyways. Yeah, yeah. It just further builds the faith in the next step and how it's how it's coming.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

That's as far as uh in terms of Calvinism I go, in terms of God God determining everything, is that he he he knows he has he knows so he knows how to get you to where you gotta go. And he knows whether he you gotta take a massive detour so you can come all the way back, or if you're ready to listen now and you can walk into that. And that is that's why we can trust God, is because he knows how to bring the goodness out of everything. And when you actually trust him, you can walk through the painful moments knowing that this is going to be for the absolute benefit of whatever he's given me and my life and the fullest meaning possible.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

So so I oscillate in this a lot. I'm like, I trust God, and then I'm like, I don't even know what it means to actually trust God.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

I mean, that's a good place to be, you know.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

But like, I and I I sometimes I, if I'm being honest, I feel like I'm going a little crazy, you know. Like I like, I feel like I'm thinking about the thoughts and thinking about those thoughts, and then wondering, is God is God communicating to me and nudging me in a certain direction, or is that my own kind of intellect and understanding that I'm leaning on? And then am I trusting him? But what does it really mean to trust him? And how does that manifest in my thoughts, feelings, emotions, actions? And then it's just like this endless cycle of trying to cipher through that, you know. Um, but I think I think you guys provided some very practical ways and also with the understanding that you know, whatever it looks like to trust God in the season of your life, it's gonna it is gonna work itself out, I believe, you know. Um, so what would you say to the person who's struggling with like with that sort of thought? It's like, I don't even know what it means to really believe. I I I think I know what it means to believe in God, but even I struggle to say, Oh, I believe in God, because I don't I don't realize the weight of that sometimes, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

So, like, yeah, yeah, can you speak on that? That's the Jordan Peterson uh something he's recently said because Jordan Peterson has flirted with the idea, like like he would say, like, he's like, for me to say I believe in God, like that is a truth that would change everything about everything. And I respect him a lot in those ways because it like people just are very flippant with just saying anything. And just saying I believe in God when their their very life, their way they they engage, looks nothing like it. And the idea is that like if you actually believed in God, your entire life would look like you held that truth sacredly. Like, because what does it actually mean to believe in God? Is that He is the one, there's an orchestration that He is moving and He's maneuvering, and anything that you think you got going on needs to come second to that. And the moment that you're like, I'm gonna put God's will secondary to what I want to do, kind of proves that you don't really believe that much in God, right? Because it these these things carry weight, and you have to be, and so there's a there's an there's a absolute truth to what you're saying in terms of like, if I truly believe in these words, I'm gonna say them in a reverent way and not flippantly, which I think is what scripture says about not having idle words come out, just saying things. Um, at the same time, though, the beautiful part about approaching God is you approach him as you are, in whatever stage you're at. Like the there's always the open door for wherever you find yourself, there's always the open door to go back to him. And you start the journey, even if you don't fully know what it means, kind of going back to the mystical, mysterious part. Even if you can't systematically in your brain describe exactly what it means to believe in God and walk that way, the door is open for you to begin the journey. And in the beginning of the journey, the understanding comes. So part of trust is the, I don't know what this is gonna look like. I don't know full, I don't know even have the full expression of what God wants me to do. But because I am, I in my heart am moving towards him and desiring him and I'm seeking him, I'm gonna take a step. I'm gonna be Peter and walk out of the boat. And I'm gonna believe that this chair is gonna hold me when I lean back on it. You know, that's that's the idea of trust. That's really what faith is. Um, so it's those both worlds. It's it's man, this is a massive thing to say, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I'm following him, life or death. That's massive. That has implications. Do I need to have a full understanding of what all his implications are to start moving towards him? Does your child need to have every implication knowing everything about their father for them to go towards their father? So both worlds come together, and and you that's Christianity. It's like there's so much I don't know, but I'm gonna embark on the journey because of trust. And in the trust, we'll unravel the understanding.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Yeah, makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Yeah, uh definitely have something to say about it, I bet.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Well, as the theological beautiful masterpiece of Moana pointed out, sometimes you just take the next right step ahead of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like I've I'm obviously joking, but like that that has always stuck out to me, and I'm pretty sure it was Moana. I don't even remember if it was Moana. But there's a part where it's like just take the next right step. Yeah. Like what's the what's the next act of obedience God's calling you into? What's the next simple thing that you could do? When things feel out of control, when things feel like I don't know what to do, I'm not sure. There's so much that we could get into our head about, but ultimately, when we look through scripture and we look at the Old Testament accounts of the men of faith, it was often just one request: make this next step, take the step of obedience. And it wasn't a small one, but it was clear. Yeah. And it was the next step, and they took that next step, and God met them there. Now it doesn't tell us how long after they took the step that he met them. It could have been days, it could have been years, it could have been decades in some of these situations. But he called them to do something and they said yes. And sometimes it is as simple as that. We just have to have the trust in him with our eyes on him. If our eyes are on him and we take that next step towards him to trust again that he's greater than we are, he's greater than our biggest fear, he's greater than our biggest inadequacy. We have to have greater trust in how good and big he is, as opposed to the faith that we have in our ability to screw it up.

SPEAKER_03 54:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

It it not to make it transactional, but it does seem like trust is a bit of a spiritual currency, if you will. Where the more obedient I am in the small things, he's able to trust me more. And then as a byproduct, I trust him more because I begin to see how it's all working out, and then trust begets more trust. And I think, you know, you read the book Living Fearless by Jamie Winship. Have you read that book? Anyways, when I think about it, I tend to think about these things in extremes, as far as like when I ask myself, do I really trust God? And he gives an account when they're in the Middle East and he was driving in a car with his kids, and there's a bunch of Muslims all around their vehicle, and he literally has the trust in God to pray in that moment for God to make them invisible. Like I'm thinking to myself, do I have that level of trust to believe that God is going to make me invisible in that moment?

SPEAKER_01 55:32

You know, so but sometimes you have to be in that situation in order to have that level of faith in order to pray that prayer. That's what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

When the AK 47's in your face, I think you'll find new reservoirs of need for faith, but you'll you'll uh do anything to not be in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

But I think that also reaffirms that like it was those moments for Jamie of the small obedience that led him to the Middle East and led him into that critical moment. Speaking of trust, I want to I actually want to go back to a personal question for you. It's like we talk about all this trust and like what it looks like maybe practically, but also internally. What does it look like for you when you're making decisions as a pastor, even as a husband now? By the way, congratulations. I appreciate it. Thank you. Um, you know, talk to me, talk to me about this this theme of of trust.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Well, yeah, I think it's understanding that like we we believe that like a core Christian concept is that love like moves everything. That the very instance that Paul would say, you know, with you could do everything without love, it can have like no weight, no meaning to it. And and trust is a a very integral part of love. Like if you don't trust something, love can't really engage. And and trust is really how we lit everything works. You have to trust in every moment, in every second, that one, the chair is gonna hold you, that the table's not gonna fall down, that the car is gonna get you. We're trusting always. And and sometimes we're trying, we're not even know what we're trusting in, we're just stepping out, right? And so when I begin to understand that, uh like in terms of your question, like how do you then, how do you lead? How do you lead a ministry? How do you lead a family? How do you lead a marriage? It's like you have to, you have to understand that God is the most trustworthy. Like if I'm willing to sit in my car and drive this thing 60 miles an hour down to where I'm gonna go and I don't think two steps about it, I should very well be able to trust the God in which I've put my very essence in, my very life in, my very who I am. And and so when I begin to know that, when I begin to keep that like very foundationally, it was kind of like what my brother said. I'm less, I'm trusting more in God's ability to do what needs to be done because anything I have is his anyway. So this is his marriage, this is his church. So I'm trusting that he's involved in it and that he's gonna let me know what's gonna what needs to happen. But I'm trusting in his ability to do what he said he would do versus my ability to completely derail it. And when I have that, the it's really more the fear of taking a step that causes most of the issues in any of this. It's the fear of making a move, it's the fear of engaging, it's the fear of making a mistake, which shows that you don't really trust in the one that you're trying to, you're saying you're doing all this for. And so ultimately to answer your question, it's it's when you trust God, that is the true essence of faith. And that is how love then can come from our lives. And when that happens, that's the that's the catalyzing agent that makes things actually work and actually function and actually move in our entire experience of this life.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

So, what do we do though when the external reality does not match that level of trust? Meaning there's a financial deficit, the bank account is negative, uh, our spouse is is behaving in a way that maybe we don't agree with, or just uh uh someone else, a friend is living insane and it's affecting us. Like there's these external things that we experience. How do we maintain that level of trust even when the outside world is not reflective of perhaps what we might be expecting of?

SPEAKER_00 59:14

So it as this the cliche answer is like you walk by faith and not by sight. Um the external world's always trying to give you information. That's what that we're always receiving information from the outside world. That's kind of this how this all works. Um, and that's why Paul can say, like, you know, from viewing the outside world, the information should come in and resonate in you that there is a creator. The very fact that things are fallen and that there's that this is kind of the prince of the power of the air, the enemy can comes in and snakes in and begins to send information and taint things, and you begin to receive information that, oh, maybe, maybe there isn't a God in this situation, maybe there isn't a a way out. And then you begin to doubt yourself, you begin to to feed off that information, then you react to your spouse based upon what you're experiencing, versus if you would have sat down in that moment and decided, like, hey, the there's information coming my way. Is there actually a higher I don't want to use the term frequency, but it's the only word that I can have in my brain. Is there actually a higher message playing above that? Can I actually tune into something that's higher? Is that is that the only truth that I have to go on? Is the fact that, you know, my wife is acting this way or my children are acting this way, or yeah, the digital understanding of my net worth is lower than I need to survive. Is there actually something? Can I trust in something higher than that? Can I find myself settling in something higher than that and then pull information from that in order that I might then make a dismant make a move? And that's really what it kind of means to walk by faith and not by sight. It's to choose there's a higher, there's higher ways of living and value systems that I can attach to in a very real practical way that doesn't produce worry and anxiety, but actually produces the answer I need to walk out of the situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

The account that we read on Sunday about Gideon, I think is a perfect example of this because Gideon is hiding in the wine press when God shows up to him. And without recounting the whole story, I just love that God shows up to him and calls him a mighty man of valor as he's hiding from the enemy. And so the point that we made is that because God is perfect in his wholeness, when he sees us, he doesn't see us in our brokenness. Like we see our brokenness, we see through the lens of brokenness, he sees through what he has created. And so if God looks at us in wholeness, then we have to understand that we can have trust in what he sees, in who he has created. We don't see ourselves as perfect, we don't see ourselves without flaws. We are very aware of them, but we have to trust in what God is saying in that moment. And so when God says mighty man of valor, God's not like making that up. Yeah, God's not speaking something that is a falsehood, he's speaking a reality that he sees over Gideon. And so we have to trust that what God sees in us is greater than what we see, and that we get to attach our faith to what he has already spoken. And so when all of the circumstances, which for him were the Midianites and the Amalekites who were too numerous to count, who were coming and stealing their livelihood. Yeah, not just stealing like stuff, but stealing their ability to eat. He's hiding in the wine press so that he could have something to eat. That is the worst circumstance around him. And yet when he moves from the place of, I'm the least of these, the least in my clan, I can't do anything, God, into starting to believe what God has said. Well, then he stands up, he tears down the idol, he goes and he calls the men into battle. He goes into the battle and he actually you see this confidence build in him where he was first hiding, and now he's speaking to his own countrymen and he's like, Guys, what are you doing? And so there is this new belief system that comes alive in him when he starts to attach his faith to what God is saying. Right. And so if we would take the time to understand how God sees us and what he has spoken to us in scripture, and then to develop that relationship for ourselves to see what God is saying, then it honestly doesn't matter as much what's happening around us when we see what he is saying, what he's calling us to do. And so, once again, that next step, what does it look like for me to believe what God is saying about me? What does it look like for me to actually attach my trust in this area, in my marriage, in my work, in in whatever that's that that uh area of my life is that reflects what God has said. Yeah. And I believe that is the thing that starts to pull us out of the place of brokenness and and the place of lack and deficit into the reality of heaven's perspective.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

Amen. Yeah, so they seem like there's an underlying theme of action through all this too, which comes up in every episode, is like the the need to actually mobilize yourself because faith without works is dead, trust without works is dead, and so on and so forth. You seem like someone who has a lot of thoughts per second in a good way. Often, yes, right. I tend to overthink and underact a lot. Personally, for you, how do you how do you turn thought into action normally in alignment with your faith and your trust?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

That's a great question. And I'm still working through that, I think, too, in my own way. Um, you have to recognize, I think, that there's a purpose for thought, and there's a purpose for concept, and there's a purpose for, you know, um abstract ideals and all these things. And the purpose is for those things to become something real. And I think oftentimes in Christianity, unfortunately, we have downgraded the physical, the participate, the participatory, the actual real engagement of our faith. And we've gone more into the dynamic of like constantly cerebrally trying to make propositions and confessions that describe what we mean instead of actually living what we mean. And for me, it's like every thought, and not all thoughts are good to act out on. Obviously, we know that, right? That would that goes without saying, right? But every thought, the purpose of every thought is to manifest into a real physical action. That's that's that that pattern exists throughout the Bible. That's why God created the world, right? So God created the physical world so that the spirit can come and engage in something real, like terrestrial. And the way that that happens, it's like that the same pattern is man, let like one, you need wisdom. Wisdom is always necessary. So wisdom helps you determine between this is a thought I should then act out, and this is a thought I should throw out immediately and never think about again, you know. Um, but once I began to understand the purpose of these thoughts is not just to sit in a room and just constantly funnel over it, but the purpose of thoughts is to engage. Me in real participate re real participation in life. And that began to shift things for me. And I began to be a lot less interested in just having ideas for ideas' sake and seeing how they actually work in the real in the real world. And as in the ministry, you kind of begin to see that because sometimes you'll preach something and you'll begin to notice which ideas took root and which ideas just kind of flowed by the wayside. Because the ideas that take root, I think are the most applicable ideas for the people you're trying to minister to or engage with. And those are the ones that take root, and those are the ones you begin to see actually affecting people's life. And so one, I'd say don't be upset, don't try to not be obsessed with just thinking of ideas or thoughts and try to see which thoughts actually produce real participation in life and engaging in life. And then which thoughts actually produce fruit that you'd want to eat, you know? Does this thought produce just more anxiety that makes me run away and become a coward? That's not fruit I'd want to eat. Or does this thought actually produce more faith and trust inside of me? And that's what I want to focus on. And that's what I want to pay attention to. Because you actually do have the choice. It might be hard when things are swirling to pay attention to the things that you actually want to. That's that's your free will is to choose, right? Choose this is the thought I actually want to see grow in my life. And other things practice the art of ignoring, which is a difficult thing, but it's a real good, real good way to engage with those things that are hounding you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

Yeah, I said many times that our strongest and biggest tool as a Christian is our focus. Yeah. And that's why the enemy uses all his resources to steal our focus and distract us. Yeah. Yeah. What are your thoughts on uh on this?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

Yeah, on the taking action part of it. Yeah, I think um I'm just kind of brought to the uh account of David where he uh is at home in a time that it says the kings go to war. Like in the season when the kings go to war, David's at home. Like he's taken the time off. He's home, and that's where he sees Bathsheba. That's what leads him into that place of compromise and his greatest, you know, I think sin that we could see on record because it leads to the murder of Uriah and um obviously infidelity and and everything else. Uh there was a season which he was called into action and he stayed home. And maybe he was just overwhelmed, maybe he was just, you know, there was a place of of feeling the weight of everything. And I think sometimes that leads us into inaction. We don't move because of fear, we don't move because of whatever is going on in our lives, and it keeps us from engaging in the battle that God's called us in. And that often leads us to the places of greatest compromise. And so even if it's not to go fight a battle, what is the simple thing that God's calling me to do? And if you don't know, maybe it's because you haven't spent the time with him in just a simple way, with a Bible and with a journal, and just allowing him to speak and saying, God, what's that act of obedience? What are you calling me to do? And if you don't have an answer, what's the last thing that he called you to do? Did he did you actually walk in obedience to the last thing that he asked you to do? And if you haven't, uh then to ask for the grace to go do that thing and taking that step forward is the movement that allows him to, when you're in movement, to redirect you uh in the direction that he wants you to go. So yeah, I'm a big proponent on on finding out what that next thing is and moving in action, uh, not on autopilot, not on just going through life just trying to figure out the next day, but doing it with some level of intentionality, which is okay, it's you know, the song, this is the day that the Lord has made, I'll rejoice and be glad in it. I used to speak those words to myself every day when I was driving to UPS, hating my job, hating the fact that I was going to go do something that wasn't ministry. And I'm like, all right, God, today is, and I would I would say today is June 19th. This is a day that you've made. I'm gonna choose to be glad and I'm gonna choose to rejoice that I have this day. So, what is it that you're calling me to do today? And in that place, it gave purpose to what I was doing. And now I think back to those days when I drive on those same streets, excuse me, and I'm like, oh wow, look at what he's done. I was obedient in that season, and as I was obedient in that season, not doing it perfectly, right? Look where he's led me and look where I am now because of his faithfulness. Yeah, amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:33

Amen. So, do you have any questions for your brother? Because I've asked a lot of questions. Yeah, I want to know, I want to know brother to brother. Yeah, not in the pastoral role. What are what's a question you have for your brother and brother? Well, I ask him a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

I ask him questions from the pulpit sometimes where I'm like, Did I get that that biblical account right? Because I go to him with a lot of theological things because I really do trust the depth of what's in him. And I trust that there is a uh fidelity, that there is a a devotion that he has to scripture. Um, so when I have questions like that, I'm like, what do you think about this? Yeah. Um, so I would just say very practically, what have you learned in the first three weeks of marriage that you can give you can give to uh to our audience as a way of uh uh signing off on this this episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:22

Oh my gosh. It's so funny too, because in uh I he'll know in formation class I'll I'll give parenting advice and I'll always be like, I don't have any kids, but here's it's like when you're a parent. It's like when you're a parent. You know, um man, I guess about marriage, it's uh it's the cliche. It's don't seek to don't seek to be right, seek to hear what what they're saying, try to see in between the lines and find out like when you're engaged with a whole other person, especially me being married at 30, I feel like I've been a lot has been baked in me already. And then and what she cares about, I don't care about. But she's coming, like this person I've devoted, I'm devoting my life to actually being a part and actually caring what she cares about, which means when when either tensions rise a little bit or here's an emphasis on what she cares about, to not try to then go over the top of that and say, but this is what I'm meaning. It's more like, let me cherish that thing you're telling me you're caring about. You can do it with a little less attitude, but let's chuck me cherish that and let me actually, you know, seek to do this in a way that you know is genuine and shows actually love it. Yeah. And so actually, it goes perfectly with what you were saying before. My wife is someone who's more action-oriented in terms of like, don't tell me you're sorry, do differently. And I'm far more like you can tell me you're sorry, and I'm good with that, man. I'm chilling. I'm looking at the opposite. I forgive you, it's great, you're fine, you know, but we work differently. So it's more just like, yep, take that extra step. Don't try to be right. Try to see what they're really caring about in how they're saying it, and continue to go back to the drawing board, even if you're screwing up everything. Go back to the drawing board, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

It's good to hear that perspective from someone who's newly married because you know, we've been married for a while now. I've been married for I think 13 years now. Um, so like there is different things that you just become accustomed to. And I'm like, okay, yeah, that's really good advice for anyone who's married. Right. Like, care about what that person's caring about. Don't be so centrally focused on what I think needs to get done. Listen, care, make yourself available. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:34

I just have to remind myself it's not me against you. Yeah, we are one flesh. Yeah, it's us against the world, it's us against the enemy.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

My wife brought that up in a Valentine's Day thing recently.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:45

She was like trying to tell you something.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:47

Yeah, well, it's so funny because we'll just air it out in front of everybody. But she's like, she was talking to everybody, she's like, Listen, in marriage, your spouse is not the enemy. Your spouse is not the one who is against you. And so, like, you guys come into conflict because of proximity, because of the passion, because of everything else. Yeah, but it is meant to be a unification. Yes, and the enemy would try to turn you guys against each other. But as you're unified, you actually have a lot more power and authority in your life when you're together on this. And that's why I think it's so beautiful that God has designed marriage between a man and a woman to come together with all of these different personality things, conflicts, difference of opinion, because it sharpens us. Yeah, community sharpens us, being around other people, but nothing like marriage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:33

Well, with that, uh, I we're gonna do a part two to this. We're gonna have Christian on another episode here. Um, Sam usually prays us out of here, but I'm actually gonna put it on you to pray us, to pray the listen to pray the listener, the person listening to this. See if I can do it. We've talked about calling, we've talked about trusting in God. Pray for the listener, pray for us in relation to that, and uh, we'll we'll end this episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:59

All right. Thank you, Jesus, so much for who you are. Thank you, Lord God, for the opportunity to bring forth the ideas, the truths, the things you put on our hearts, Lord God, to embetter anyone who's listening. I just pray right now, Lord God, that if anyone's struggling with knowing what their calling is, Lord God, struggling with trust, struggling with any type of anxiety mentally, spiritually, Father God, that Lord, you know exactly what we need when we need it. You are very good. You're the truest thing in our lives. And I pray, Father God, that whatever it is you have for us would be made abundantly clear. That God, you know exactly what we need to hear, when we need to hear it. And we would just give you our attention, we give you our focus. And I pray that you would calm the seas and the storms of people, so afraid to get it wrong that they don't make a step, that you would empower them, that you would bring a courage within them, Lord Jesus, that would rise up, like Peter just saying, if I can, if if Jesus, I know Jesus is there, I'm jumping out of this boat, you know, be it hell or high water, and I'm going to engage fully. And I just pray that that kind of cur courage would replace the anxiousness or the anxiety or the misunderstanding. And we wouldn't fear the unknown, but Lord God, we'd chase after you, knowing that you are good and you're gonna bring goodness out of everything that we walk into. In Jesus' name, amen. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:16

Awesome.