Rediscovering Identity: The Call for Real Men in Faith

The conversation nobody wants to have.

In this episode of The Fifth Gospel Podcast, Anthony sits down with youth pastor Christian Edwards to explore why so many young men are returning to Christ across America and Europe.

Is a spiritual revival beginning?
We discuss the growing hunger for purpose, the collapse of identity in modern culture, biblical masculinity, and why more young men are finding stability in Christianity, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy.

This conversation explores:
• Why young men are searching for Jesus again
• The modern meaning and identity crisis
• Hookup culture, pornography, and false identity• Biblical masculinity vs. cultural stereotypes
• God's design for men and women
• Why tradition is attracting younger generations• Marriage, family, and protecting the next generation• How Christ restores identity and purpose
Whether you're a believer, skeptic, or simply asking bigger questions about purpose, this episode is an invitation to think deeper about where our culture is headed—and where true hope is found.


TIME STAMPS
00:00 – Men Reclaiming Purpose
00:42 – Revival Through History
04:38 – The Meaning Crisis
07:44 – Sexuality as False Identity
12:44 – Marriage and Identity Under Attack
13:21 – Finding Identity in God's Story
16:00 – Why Male Leadership Matters
19:22 – Culture Pushes Back
23:59 – Soft Men, Strong Faith
26:49 – Identity Beyond Labels
27:33 – Real Men Need Jesus
28:16 – Biblical Strength vs. Softness
29:08 – Health, Stress & Modern Men
31:25 – Christ Makes Us Whole
33:49 – Protecting Families and Children
36:37 – Strength Through Submission to Christ
37:10 – The Modern Meaning Crisis
41:58 – Why Young Men Are Seeking Tradition
46:57 – Discipleship and Transformation
49:30 – Closing Prayer

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's a really sad reality when men step back and shrink back from who they've been called to be because they believe the lie of the enemy.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

No one knows what a woman is, no one knows what a baby is, no one knows what God is, no one knows how to define or categorize anything because the ones that are supposed to, the man, has been relegated to the corner.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Which is why it's so important that we take our responsibility seriously. Because what we do today is going to create a world for the next generation.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

So if men can come back and then engage with the church, I think that is what revival looks like.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

So we are here with my brother, Pastor Christian Edwards on the Fifth Gospel Podcast. And uh today I was really just thinking about what God is doing in the world right now, and thought it would be great from your perspective as a youth pastor to be able to speak to some of what we're seeing culturally, definitely to what we're seeing spiritually around the world right now. Yeah. We're hearing about this coming back to Christ taking place uh in Europe right now. We're seeing it in America, we're seeing it firsthand, which is beautiful at our church, the gathering in Poughkeepsie. Um, and so I wanted to see from your vantage point, what is it that's so unique about what God's doing right now? And is it unique? Because I know we've talked a lot about church history. Yeah, we've seen things that God has done throughout the generations. Yeah, is what you're seeing right now new and unique, or is it something that has been happening uh throughout history and God's just breathing on it again? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's an amazing question.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Um I'm I think the obvious questi the answer to that is God knows how to bring stuff back from the dead in every scenario. Um G.K. Chesterton said, like the the cool thing about the church is that the church has the church has died and came back because it's based on the one who knows how to come back from the dead. That's good. Because there have been lulls. There have been times where whether it's because outside forces have beaten Christianity into a corner and it needed to go underground, or there have been times where it like it literally has taken over everything and it's become part of the culture, it's become ubiquitous to some of the greatest empires in the world, Christianity. It's there's ebbs and flows. And there are times where for whatever reason, and there are prunings and and taking backs that the Christianity goes far, and sometimes it seems like it gets lulled into a false sense of security and comes back. But this is all part of if you are connected with how history works, this is how, this is how it's worked before. And so what I believe we're for we're seeing is that that reunification, that bringing back, because we'll talk about the reasons why, I'm sure. But yeah, I think this is something that we as Christians can take confidence in that the one we follow knows how to come back from comes knows how to come back from from all the way down and end up winning in the end.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Yeah. Yeah, I think that what we're seeing right now, and and Anthony, we were talking about this earlier, there there is an importance that we talk about this today because there is a response to what is taking place right now in society that I believe is drawing young people back to faith. And we did say specifically young men back to faith. And so, as this podcast is designed to be able to help believers in their walk to further their walk with God, it's so important that we recognize some of the cultural elements that have led us to this place. And so, as we were talking earlier today, we were saying that uh some of the things that are happening in the weakening of the moral structure and foundation of the world that we live in, some of the viewpoints that say, well, it's actually men who are at fault for a lot of these things. So we have to actually remove some of that authority from men. Um, the continual, and and I'm not somebody who wants to look at everything and be like, oh, you guys are being so um feministic, you guys are being so over the top in this area. But like even in television shows and media, yeah, like the guy was the idiot, the father, the husband is the idiot. They're the ones that are being made fun of all the time. I think there's a response that's taking place right now to say, I'm not actually okay with being torn down and stripped of any of my the things that make me me. And so there's this coming back to some of the foundations and some of the the moral fabric of society that gives men a voice, gives them a purpose, gives them an identity. And I believe that's God given. Yeah. And so yeah, I think that's part of the reason why. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah, I I not so much to say, but to ask, what do you think the reason is for this movement back? And is it is it more so people running from the world or running to Jesus?

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Um that's interesting. Um I I think primarily it's because meaning, like life meaning something and having something to live for has been stripped, slowly stripped away for the last, let's say, 500 years or so. The Enlightenment, the the place where we slowly were cutting God and the things of God outside of natural life, and we began to make this gigantic separation. We've found very quickly that unless we have something giving us meaning and influencing what we do with meaning, people very much lose whatever motivation they have to actually live. And I think primarily we're in a meaning crisis. We have been for a little while, but we're in a meaning crisis. We've come to the place where people don't actually see how or what they do has any purpose in it at all. And we've actually begun to teach each other that there is no purpose in it besides maybe some of the most carnal or base level of impulses, right? So sexuality, because sexuality is such a powerful thing, it has become the number one way in which people find meaning in otherwise empty lives. Yeah. And so we that's why we've seen sexuality boom and and and take on proportions and sides that that really no sane person would engage with unless they were like trying to find in it something that's not there to be found. Um, so ultimately I think the coming back to God is a response that maybe people weren't idiots when they said there's true, bona fide, objective reality, yeah, that living specific ways matter, and that what I do does actually have deeper meaning than just scientific function. And what has happening is people are recognizing that, you know, I don't know, I don't know which way to go, but the God things seem to have some answers. The God things seem to have given people some kind of impetus to live life and not only live it, to engage in the things we all think are valuable, like love and kindness and goodness. And so ultimately I would say that the second question about like, are they escaping the world or coming or just are coming back to God? God works on both ends, right? God incites the desire to find deeper meaning and people find it that way. People are running away from tyranny or brokenness or or systems that are very much not working. So we experienced this when Charlie Kirk was was murdered. We had people come into the church as a by literally a byproduct of saying, that was that was such an evil expressed that I don't I can't function the same way anymore. I need to find something, I need to find a something to make things make sense, and that's and a pushback to the response that they saw in the world to that thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah, yeah. I think so. What you touched on is really important because we look at sexuality and we look back even to the 60s and maybe it started, you know, before that, yeah, where sexuality became the main focus of this is the thing that I'm pursuing, this is the thing that I'm going after. And we also see it in biblical times, yeah, where the worshiping of idols and false gods was also accompanied by orgies and sexual immorality. Because there's something about sex and uh and no pun intended, but the climax of sex that brings such a pleasure to the human body that it is something that easily can be worshipped. Yeah, it can be pursued because I'm chasing after that thing. And actually, God is the one who gave us that thing, he designed our bodies to function in such a way. But the enemy who always comes to distort what God has done took it outside of the confines of covenant and brought it into this place of just pleasure. Yes. And so when people chase after that, it ends up loosening the foundation of everything else in their lives and say, okay, this is what I'm going after. But it's never enough because outside of covenantial relationship, sexuality always needs to find new expressions. Yes, it always needs to find different ways to be expressed to take it to the next level. Yeah. And now we've built moral structure, we've built uh identity systems based off of my sexuality, your sexuality. And now we've got these, you know, this religion of LGBTQIA plus. A thousand percent. So everything, yeah, where if you're this or you're this or you're this, it's okay. We all come together and all of our identities give us purpose and meaning. Yeah. And what gets stripped away from that is God. Yeah. And the reason I think that matters is because when we go down that road looking for our sexual expression to become our identity, yeah. And then we eventually find out that it doesn't actually fix everything, that this false God doesn't actually give me purpose and meaning, but it leaves me just as broken, if not more broken than I was before. Yeah, well, now I've got to search for something else. And I think that's what has opened up the door to saying, oh, there must be more than this. Sleeping around didn't do it for me. Expressing myself in all these other ways didn't actually do it for me. Right. Pornography and going after that to bring fulfillment to my life didn't do it for me. There must be something else. And to your point, oh, maybe there is something about this faith in God. Yeah. Maybe there is something to the way that a man and a woman come together and they build a life together and build a family that actually is the answer that I've been searching for. Yeah. So I think your point in bringing up sexuality actually makes a lot of sense as to what the response has been.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Because sexuality, it it in terms of from its symbolism to its patterns to the way God intended it, it's it's very much the like it's the ultimate picture of the seed going into the ground and reproducing, right? It's there's something about the beauty and sexuality that God has created that mirrors the love that God had that created life. And when it's properly put in its position in correlation to deeper meaning, which is, I think the covenant brings deeper meaning to sex, right? It brings a selflessness to sex, it brings a a deep love and cherishing for one other person, and they come to them coming together produces life. Yeah. So when that's taken away, the meaninglessness of sex, right? So no pun intended again, meaningless sex, like, oh, it's just it was just meaningless. It was just function. You get meaning from novelty then. You get meaning from how how pleasurable it can actually be from the endorphins of from the dopamine of it. And that you can exhaust novelty very quickly. Your brain can at one point have so much novelty in it that it can no longer differentiate what's different, and it comes to an even like grayness of that's a the addict, right? So the addict that gets to a point where nothing is exciting anymore. Yeah, and normal life is not exciting, and so they're chasing that kind of spike that is novelty running its course. Yeah. And so meaningless sex very much dissatisfies, and that's where you have people then looking for other things, right? And they either go deeper down the rabbit hole, or like that, you can hit rock bottom and look up. That's the that's the beauty of rock bottom, though. The beauty of rock bottom is the fact that you can you can look up and be like, oh, there's that shining thing up there that if I can go back to that, like the prodigal son, I can maybe get back to some, I can save my life, I can save my soul. And so yeah, I think I think there's a deep, deep, there's a reason why every uh empire, when it gets super decadent and loses real deep meaning of what started with, turns to sex as the main driving force of their civilization, and it always turns out bad.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

How connected to identity is that? And it may be a synonymous meaning and identity, because it seems to me there is an identity crisis. Which is, I think, if we go deeper into that, it is an attack on marriage, right? It's like, oh, let's let's push a hookup culture for the guy, let's push sexual preference and love is love to the LGBTQ community, let's push feminism, I don't need no man to the woman, and what does that really do at its core separates the man and the woman from getting into one flesh and getting into that union in marriage to then be fruitful and multiply? So, how much of this is an identity problem?

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Well, I I think I think it's always an identity problem because an identity is your ability to find yourself within the greater story, right? So if the greater story is is God's like God's creation and purposes, right? That's the biggest story among all the stories that we can, the story of me as a as a husband, the story of you as a father, like we have all these what you would may call meta-narratives, but there's all these stories happening that that we attach to and we find our roles in and important callings and all that. But your identity ultimately, what we always preach is your identity is found within the the greater story of God's purpose for creation. And as we say, well, God, there is no God, or God doesn't have a purpose, or the purpose is found in the scientific method of understanding how the function of everything and and the evolutionary understanding of survival of the fittest, like when you begin to break the power of the story of God, of God and humanity, which is it's the greatest love story talking about marriage. The greatest love story is that out of the beauty of the Trinity and the desire and the pure love, that primordial love, poured out creation. That it was always meant to be a union of heaven and earth. In that's what that's what marriage is. It's like it's a union of two things coming to continue to build goodness and proliferate goodness. You get rid of all that, people all of a sudden need to find their identity in all the lesser stories. So I find my identity in who I'm attracted to, that's a lesser story. You know, that's important, but that's a lesser story. I find my identity in how much money I make, that's a lesser story. I find my identity in in how well I look, looks maxing. You know, I find that people throwing themselves into how attractive I can be, as if bodily perfection will reach. They're all looking to they're all looking to return to the larger story. So salvation is like returning to the larger story of God's good order. And they're all looking for that in all these lesser stories that that run out. They all run out because they're they're supposed to all be signposts to the greater story and reflections of the greater story. But we can't get there when like literary society has cut it off and said, We don't need this anymore. It's the it's the perspective of the guy on the branch who's sawing off the branch he's sitting on. And he thinks that that one branch can can stay afloat without their whole tree. Yeah. And all these little stories are these branches float we think can float, but they all crumble down to the floor. And so as a society, we've we began to rip reproduce that. Like that's what we're determining is we're trying to create our own stories, but they always are lesser than the main one.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

How much of this is on the man do you think, as opposed to women?

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Uh I firmly do believe that there is a specific identity that God gives to men and that God gives to women. Uh, I believe that they were both created to function within the context of that design. Yeah. And for let's start with women, there is something that is very unique to them that men just don't possess naturally. Right. I'll never forget my son being born after my wife being in labor for 24 hours. Uh, it's an emergency C-section. She is exhausted from this whole process. Uh, so Caleb is born at that time, and I look at her when we they finally put uh Caleb into her arms, and I'm like ready to just like crumble because I am just I have no strength left in me, and I wasn't the one doing anything, right? I fully admit uh you know acknowledge the fact that I wasn't the one going through this, and she takes Caleb in her arms and she immediately is the mother, she immediately knows what to do. So cool. I'm like, what are we supposed to do now? Yeah, and she just immediately becomes a mother because it's innate in her. Yeah, it was natural for her to be able to do that. Right. And so for me as a man and as a husband and as a father, I have to recognize that there are things that God has placed within me as well that are meant to come naturally to me. Now, this can be affected by poor examples growing up, it could be affected by places of abuse, places of neglect, all of those things. But when we go back to God's original design, there is a need for men to lead, yeah, to stand in their identity of who they are and who God's made them to be. And I think there is something in the DNA of man that doesn't diminish anything in women whatsoever, but actually is the thing that upholds women in their identity and in their purpose. Right. But it's a need to stand up for what is right, it's a need to be able to stand firm on truth and to be able to fight for it. And so going back to our original question of why we see this return back to God, especially among young men. Um, and and I was saying earlier, you know, historically, at least within the last, I don't know, 40, 30, 40 years, it seems like it was the women who were leading the charge in spiritual matters. They were the ones who were coming to church, and the guys were like, no, thanks, I'm good, I'll stay home. Yeah. Now it seems like there is a hopefully both men and women coming to church, but definitely an increase in men, at least comparatively speaking. But there is this return back to this understanding of who I'm meant to be. Yeah. Because I think that as the moral fabric of society decays, yeah, and now as anything goes, and now we're not allowed to stand up for what we believe in, there's something being reawakened inside of us. Like, wait a second, this is not how it's supposed to be. No, we're not supposed to just roll over when there are belief systems that are targeting our children, sure, that are actually going after the next generation, that are being pushed forward not just as opinion now, yeah, but trying to be legislated. I think to what's happening right now in Major League Baseball. We had a picture that came out on the Dodgers on Pride Night, and he wouldn't wear the hat with the rainbow flag on it. Yeah, he just wore his normal Dodgers hat. And so they start to take notice like, wait a second, he's defecting from what we're saying he should do. The other night, three of the San Francisco Giants they wore the Pride hat, but they wrote the Bible verse on there for what God did and what the true meaning of the rainbow was meant to be. And now they're facing all this backlash. Yeah, and finds every and finds. Yeah, major league baseball said that we're not going to tolerate this. That's crazy. Which Josh Howerton just pointed out the other day. He's like, wait a second, you are the ones who push tolerance on all things, and you're saying we will not tolerate your free speech. Exactly. We will not tolerate your religious uh objection to this. Um, and they weren't saying this is wrong, they were just saying this is what the purpose is, this is what is right. So the more that that happens, I believe there is something in men that's like, nope, not gonna roll over anymore. Saw what happened to Charlie Kirk because he voiced his his opinion and his truth based off of biblical truth. I'm not gonna roll over anymore. Right. And so as that starts to happen, thankfully, it's bringing more and more men back to faith in Jesus. Yeah because that is what brings us back to our true identity and who God's made us to be.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Well, this is the beautiful part about reality, is that you it's reality is elastic. So if you stretch it, you can stretch it very, very, very far. And so what we've noticed is that men, men, whether it's for a lot of different reasons, men begin to perhaps go into spiritual hiding. I think naturally it is because there is a there is a degree where men are the do, there are doers. There's a natural doing, and so there's natural going out, and so there's a there's a desire to not always maybe be a church, but to go do something. So sometimes that plays into our weakness. But whether it's the wars that men were thrust into, like horrific wars that began to like and like totally turn them off from there being a good god or the the teaching of philosophy that there really is no universal purpose, that whatever reason, that man and then feminism growing up, men getting pushed back, push back, push back into the caves and in the corners, that you can only stretch that so far. And that's till one point, generations it snaps back. And I think what we're noticing is the snapping back of that reality that men are getting to the point where it's like, this is not we can't survive like this. Like, like the the gender of male will go extinct if we keep going down this this whole, which I mean that's not the craziest thought that people perhaps would want the whole gender to go extinct with the trans. Understanding and and all that sorts of stuff. But I think we're seeing a snapping back. And that and like you said, that that deep fat that's like a father's fury coming inside to injustice that is beginning to cry out to the where the pain of staying the same is much less than the pain is much the pain of staying the same is much more than the pain of changing. And the choice that's like we it's like you literally are pushed back to the wall that you can't let it go any longer. And so that's that snaps back. And and when that snaps back, sometimes it's violent, things erupt, like because it's just been pushed that far. But I think as there's a return to the church, as there's a return to godly order and good mentorship and moral teaching and real bona fide spirituality in Christ, that that people will begin to see again their selves in the story. Like, what does it look like to be a man in the story of God? Like what was Adam given? How does that authority function? What am I meant to then engage with? What am I then meant to do here in this space? And that's I think if the church is smart, which is uh I'll bring up Jordan Pearson again. Jordan Pearson had this message to the churches, and it was all about like, you gotta target young men. You gotta influence and begin to encourage and inspire young men because that is where the change is gonna happen. Because if you inspire them and they take a hold of it, then like women, not saying they're any lesser, but women want to come next to the strong man. That's how they were created.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

And so when the strong men come back and the young women come together and the families are born again, you're seeing the rebuilding, like we started this whole conversation, the resurrection of the church, right? So that the family being the building block of society, the resurrection of this real, beautiful belief in what God's called us to do on this earth.

SPEAKER_04 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

And so I I think that's ultimately what it looks like, but it's that stretching. You can't push it so far, it's it doesn't break, it snaps back on you.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Do you see it as like a softening of men and a demonizing of masculinity that's occurring or that has occurred? Yeah, yeah. 100%. So, how important do you think it is for men to not be? I mean, I'm still a little soft physical. But like, you know, like I we see a timidness, and that's one thing I really this podcast originated out of me deciding to take my face serious and to be bold and be courageous and confident in who God is and who he says I am as a man, right? Yeah. I see a lot of soft men out there who are Christian men. How important do you think it it is for men to step out of that softness and back in back into masculinity?

SPEAKER_02 24:39

I mean, fantastic question. And and it's a tough question because I do think some of the questions risen about like roles and some of the things that came out in the last hundred years from whether it's feminism or different things, had some points to it. Like the the reasons why they made those points were not because there was nothing going on. And I do think it's very important to recognize when you talk about softness, like I don't think that anyone has the excuse to be cowardly. A thousand percent. Not every man, though, is going to be as strong physically as every other man. And I do think there's there has to be care for like men that find themselves for whatever, again, nature nurture, find themselves more feminine than other men. Like, I do think there's there there needs to be like the church needs to walk with them and engage with them. Like, are they the norm? No. But are are they a very real exception? Yes. Do they struggle with a sensation of not knowing who they are? Are they are if I feel more like feminine, am I more of a woman? Right. Like, there's a very real way that that the church needs to engage with that question while not subverting what true masculinity and strength is. Because I agree with you. I think strength, I'm I physically want to feel strong. I think that's a deep masculine thing on the spectrum of like, yeah, we want to be strong. We don't want to, we don't want to need someone else to open the jar for our wives because that's the lamest thing in the world, right? But then it's also like you there is an idea where you don't want to shut the door on very real like I've had friends growing up that, yeah, they they struggled with their masculinity. Like and I always questioned, and then if I have youth who perhaps that happens too, or churchgoers, like, how do you open the door? How do you walk them through it? How do you not put on a such a heavy burden that perhaps they can't lift, but also not diminish the very real nature of how men are supposed to be? You know, and that's a I think a very real open question. So, yes, I believe strength, how you walk that out in every individual, that's where you that's where it gets real relational person to person, you engage with them.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

I think we have to define it clearly because what is biblical masculinity? Yeah, what is it, what is it supposed to look like for a man to walk in his God-given identity? Because I think that the core has to be the same, but the expression is going to be different. Yeah, right. The expression for me walking out, my identity is gonna be different from you and from you. Yeah, somebody who's grown up in a different background, and maybe they're not the prototype of like the physical strong man, but they do have more giftings in some of the more, let's say, whatever it is, artistic or business or emotional, or maybe they're the stay-at-home dad. Great, right? Sure, sure. You can be a biblically strong man in any of those contexts. The expression looks different, but what does a man of faith look like? Yeah, a man of faith looks like a man that has relationship with God, yeah. And that uh the name of this this episode is gonna be real men need Jesus, right? Right, and what was the one in parentheses? In parentheses, women need real men, and women need real men, and it's true, it's real, real men need Jesus. The only way that we find our identity, and I'm sure that of those 12 disciples, that each one of them looked differently. Yes, I'm sure they had different gifts, different abilities. We know that they had different backgrounds. So it wasn't so much the expression on the outside that mattered as much as the decision to follow Jesus on the inside, right? To put their trust in God to follow after what He's called them to do and to walk out that identity and that gifting. So I think that soft masculinity, soft men look like men who have become distracted from their identity. They've become distracted or they've become overwhelmed by the weight of what's going on in the world. And so they've abandoned their their true identity, they've abandoned their post, so to speak, internally, and they've run away and they've turned to other things and they've given into. We all have proclivities that are not good. Yeah, we all recognize that there are places where the enemy comes to attack us, but the soft nature comes when we when we go to those things instead of God. Yes. The strength looks like going and devoting ourselves to what God has called us to, and then living out of that. Whether that looks like what you would think of from a worldly perspective or not, that doesn't matter as much as the internal part, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:07

100%. Yeah. And I and I think even but even back to your point too, as well. I do think that hum that men should prioritize health in a way that exudes a type of strain. I do.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

I wasn't I wasn't talking about physical. I was saying I was referencing of a no personal softness.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

But I also I also don't want to throw that out either because I'm like, I I do think God's given us these bodies and and they work a specific way. And I do think test like things like testosterone work through activity. So I do think there's probably a degree where some men have this have struggles because they they don't utilize their body in a manner which genetically probably it's how it's supposed to be used. So I it's like I don't want to throw out that end either.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Well, there's a conversation, right? Our bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit, right? There is an element of what it should look like to pursue health and to be balanced in all areas. So I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

We did say that the men's cohort is gonna start looking more like an NFL combo.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Just to be in there, right? But because it's too, it's like I we are physical, and the physicality often does affect sometimes how we think about things, right? Like, you know, if you've ever been in constant pain, your your vision is so much more limited than when you're feeling good. And so there's also what whatever you want to say about higher estrogen levels in men, higher like chemicals that cause impotence or different degrees like of living in this modern world that has been so chemically, you know, affecting our being.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yeah, the environment itself that we're exposed to is actually having an impact. And I wonder how much of that is producing some of the chemical things inside of men that are producing some more of the female attributes. Yeah, I don't think you can discount that at all.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

I really don't think you can discount that at all. Um, and and then it's always because so all these factors exist. There's always so many factors in every conversation, and then, but then especially for us as pastors in the people business, it's like, how do you pastor a man who doesn't at all feel like a man in the most stereotypical ways? And there's gonna be times where you take that man and you encourage them to do things in the masculine way, the stereotypical way, but then you understand there are other things that you're just like, you know, like that might not be you, and I'm not gonna degrade you for that because you're you're still a man. And and that, you know what it reminds me of? It's so interesting. In the old testament, if you were handicapped, you could not enter into specific parts of the temple. And it was it, it was it's very real. Like women couldn't enter into specific parts, but also men who were disabled couldn't enter into specific parts because there was something about how that's how the picture of the holiest place was one of perfection, even bodily. So it wasn't even a determination that you're sinful, that's why you're like that, but there wasn't that entryway. But what happened was then as the the the temple got rent and the temple veil got rent and Christ dies and resurrects, that he takes all the deformed parts of humanity and brings them together to find to find themselves whole in him. So he's the difference maker. So where in the past, in the law, you you were separated because of even physical deformities that you were born with, Christ has a way of not not destroying the roles and not destroying the standards, but taking everyone, bringing them into him and him being the difference maker, meaning that there can be no Jew, no Greek, no man, no woman in the context of whatever limits us and keeps us away from God's perfection in Christ, that's gone. And that division, all the things that divide us can be gone. Yeah and who we really are. So if you're if you're a man who doesn't feel like a man in Christ, he's the difference maker that can actually make you the most idyllic depiction of what God would say a man is. Yeah, that's right. And that's part that's part of the very real renewal of what the kingdom of God's meant to bring. Yeah. And not what unfortunately a lot of churches may begin to do, which is to try to do on their own, get rid of all the diff differences and say we're all the same and equal, and that's and miss the whole part that no, it's Christ's truth, unabashed truth, that brings us into him and makes a difference.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah. I mean, Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. Blessed are you who are persecuted for my sake, unjustly, right? So these are the things that he's laying out that are not like blessed are the ones who are the conquering heroes, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Right, right. But to your point, that that is that was such an affront to how the world works.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Exactly, yeah. But it also, when those things become established inside of us, they become who we are, yeah. That actually builds up the identity in Christ. That when there is something that is taking place, which is an attack on the family, yeah, when it's an attack on women, when it's whether they they know it or understand it, or not, not to say women can't understand, but we we have this concept of of what a man and a woman is supposed to be, what God has said a man and a woman is supposed to be, and then we have society's uh response to men oppressing women that has now pushed it to this other side, and I think it's done a great disservice to both men and women. But to my point, when you understand who God's created you to be as a man, you stand up for women. You stand up for the rights of women, you stand up for the rights of children to not be subjected to what's taking place in the school systems? I mean, I I was looking up something the other day, and I think I mentioned it previously. Uh, I saw a picture in one of our local schools inside the classroom, and the whole classroom inside this public school was rainbow flags all over. Yeah. And I'm like, why do our children have to be subjected to this? Why, when you look at these school board meetings and you have parents coming forward reading books that are found in the library of the public school depicting graphic sexual nature, things of you know, homosexuality, whatever it is, or even just between a man and a woman, why do children have to be exposed to that? And just to point back to Josh Howerton for a moment, he said every religion, which the LGBTQIA plus, that is its own religion, it's its own belief system, has to at a certain point develop their own kids' ministry. Yes. They're not going into nursing homes and doing drag shows, as far as I know. Maybe they are because that's their future. No, they're targeting the next generation. Yeah. And if men are quiet, if they're silent, if they're not knowing what's going on, not paying attention, then what they will do is they'll just say, oh, well, you know, that's what school is, they'll they'll figure it out eventually. And they don't stand up for what's right. Right. Well, now you've subjected the next generation to this whole place of dysfunction. Yes. And it's a really sad reality when men step back and shrink back from who they've been called to be because they believe the lie of the enemy, yeah, or they believe what culture is saying that they just don't have a voice. Yeah. And so, yeah, all that to say this is what we're seeing, this is the shift we're seeing with men coming back to this identity. And we've seen it in our own church, which is beautiful. We're sharing just we've got this group of men that come together and meet, and I'm like, I've never seen this before in my almost 40 years in church. Yeah, and it's incredible. Incredible. So the question is, how do we steward that well now? Oh, so good.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

And you and you were going down this path before of defining biblical masculinity. I think the fact of the matter is that biblical masculinity and strength is synonymous with submission. Yeah. Yeah. And most and people misinterpret that. They hear women, your wives submit to your husbands, but that's only insofar as the husband is submitted to Christ. Yeah. Like there, there's there's a biblical way about this, and it's not just this rough and tough alpha convention 225, like that's great, like the physical nature of it. But what is that internal posture towards God?

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Yeah. Yeah. And I think even if we look again, you look back in Genesis to the idea, it's like, why is it important that men get this? Because it's important that everyone gets who God is and their role. But why is it so important that men get this? And and I believe it's found in Genesis the fact that God gives Adam, right? Man, God gives Adam the um job of naming creation. And to name something is one to express extend authority over it, but it's also to give it its meaning. So the idea that he would name creation means that he's giving them their identity as this is what you are. So God gave man the first job that they had was to begin to take meaning and apply it to creation. And so when men are no longer doing that, and then comes the other end, which is again probably why Satan went after the woman, it's just his way of diverting things, when that role is then switched and the and the more womanly like persuasion begins to take over and it's out of order, the meaning is now totally messed up. So there becomes this problem now where no one knows what anything is, no one knows what a woman is, no one knows what a baby is, no one knows what God is, no one knows how to define or categorize anything because the ones that are supposed to, the man has been relegated to the corner. And the father's been relegated to the corner. And that is not a surprise. That is the satanic desire for society. And so when you have these places of again, feminism rising up, and even for a man to communicate something to a woman is called mansplaining and demonized. It's I've always thought of that. I'm like, so you just want to stay stupid. Like, like, let me let me say, I don't want to hear from any of you because you are this. And then you see that I don't want to hear from you because you're white, I don't want to hear from you because you're you're you got this bank account, I don't want to hear from you because you're over 30. I don't want to hear from you because you're a man. And then I'm like, who are you listening to? I want to stay the same. I want to stay the same. Yeah, and I just want to continue on, and you kind of it's this tower of babel of nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Yeah, affirm me for who I am, for what I want to do and what I want to believe and desire. Yeah, and don't tell me that I'm wrong, because if you tell me that I'm wrong, then you're actually attacking my identity that I found outside of God now. Yes, and so when men are removed, the firewall is removed. Yes, and I I love what you just said though, Anthony, in Ephesians chapter five. And this is if I read this in a wedding, you can see the physical response. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it says that wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and it himself its savior. Now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

SPEAKER_03 40:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

But to your point, verse 25 husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. Right. Christ laid down his life for the church. We're called to lay our lives down for our wives and for our families. How do we do that? It's out of submission first to Christ, where we get our identity, and now we can stand up. But to your point, too, the world has demonized anybody who seems to stand for in any place of authority or strength because of the abuses. Yeah. Whatever group that you just named, they've had places where they've abused other people. Oh, for sure. So the pendulum has swung over here, and now those of us who maybe weren't part of that are still bearing the consequences of the previous generations that have gone in front of us, which is why it's so important that we take our responsibility seriously. Yes. Because what we do today is going to create a world for the next generation. And if we can show what it is to be men, yeah, who love our wives, who submit our lives to Christ and actually stand for what is right and lead by example and take care of the oppressed and take care of the poor and take care of those who need it. Now we're setting up a godly example of what it looks like to be a man. And I think that's super attractive to females, but super attractive to the world. Yeah. And that is that's what the enemy's trying to prevent in all of this.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

So when you see men coming back, 100%, you're gonna begin, hopefully, but I think this true, you're gonna begin to see things come back into order. Yeah. Like things being called true, right? Things being called right, the the like the real wisdom returning back to society and things beginning to heal.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Um, and so if men can come back and then engage with the church and really get dug in and really like begin to move this like body forward, yeah, that I think that is what revival looks like.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

So I do have an interesting question about this because we do see a lot of young men coming back to the church, and now the gathering is under the Protestant umbrella. So I have an interesting question.

SPEAKER_04 42:08

Oh boy, I know.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

And I know you're someone who's well versed in church fathers, other denomin denominations, and we probably have to do a whole uh episode on this, but I also see that there's a somewhat of a migration of men young men who have been in the Protestant church now going towards more traditional denominations like Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Can you speak on that? Because I I see a lot of merit in in those denominations as well. So, what would you say to the the young man who's who's listening who's questioning the denomination aspect of the yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

I can at least explain perhaps why that's the case. You know, because orthodoxy is having a big moment, especially online, and they call them the ortho bros, which is very funny because it's a bet it's basically a bunch of Protestants that are becoming Orthodox and arguing like Protestants. And you can see the Orthodox priests are like, you're missing the point of what we're trying to do here, and they're just arguing online. So it's just like it's it's very funny. And they're having but they're having a moment right now, especially on online discourse. It's primarily because I've heard these different stories. One, I've heard because the Presbyterian Church, uh not just the Presbyterian, but high church Protestantism, mainline Protestantism, whether it's um the Episcopal, whether it's Methodist, whether it's like Lutheran, that becomes more liberalized, right? Progressive, that you have these men who are whole, they go to seminary and they believe biblical truths, and then they see their denomination shifting, like Anglican, they see it shifting, and they're like, What, like this is not what we believe. And that all so a lot for a lot of them, I think uh Father Josiah Trenham is a very famous Orthodox voice right now. He would he talked about his experience to where then he was searching for something that wouldn't change. And the the Orthodox claim to fame is that they are the same faith from the apostles. And they it To their credit, they are they're that they're very small, but they're very much connected to a long history. And they do not do the progressive thing for the most part, right? And so that's been one of them. So in and in seeing the faulty nature of the Protestant, some Protestant denominations, especially in the West, there's been the desire to more rigorous Catholicism, more rigorous um orthodoxy. Others, it's been theological issues. I think primarily a lot of it's been like because non-denominationalism, one of the non-denominationalism's problem is it feels loose. You can't place it within the greater stream of anything. It feels like it's just there. And that can begin to feel ungrounded. And then maybe you have a charismatic church that doesn't like when I talked, I talked about that last episode, a charismatic church that doesn't feel like it has any connection to anything, and they're making it up as they go along. You're gonna go back to the place that seems like, hey, we've been doing this for a long time. We have a we have a sets thing that you're not gonna change, but you can be a part of it and you can find yourself in the faith of the apostles back there, you know? And so there's been, and then also the man thing. Like there's been the idea that these other rigorous things, like here's things that you can do that are hard that you can really engage and build apart. You can fast, you can pray, you can, and they do a really good job, at least some of them do, of presenting like a real deep rigor. Yeah. That if everything feels loose, you're gonna go to the rock that feels strong. And so all like, and there's probably a million other reasons. But all of that is to say, like, and and I guess maybe the last one would be Protestantism in America has become very uh partially cerebral. It's been very, it's very Catholicism is very scholastic too, but it's it's like almost like very systematic. Like you think of the Reformed Calvinism, highly systematic, highly like in that box we were talking about. And Orthodoxy, because it's from the East, it's very mysterious. There's a mystical nature to it. They are they are kind of more like Pentecostals than than Catholics are. There's a Pentecostal and a Orthodox feeling where you go to an Orthodox mass and there are people praying, they're like doing doing different things. There's like a real engagement in what in what the spirit is doing, at least in how that that functions. And I think people are then looking at Protestantism and they're looking at these things and they're like, maybe God is not, maybe God's not just in the theological premises in my head, but maybe he's really in how I participate in the church life. Yeah. And so those all because I know that's a long, and we could do a whole thing, but that's some of the main reasons about it. And there's very, I think there's very real um merit to those reasons. And I think we as the Protestant church, you gotta start recognizing what's going on and maybe adjusting a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

I think just to add to your point and some of the non-denominational, the looseness you talked about, like I grew up in that context, and being a little bit older than you, I went to church a lot with our grandmother. And it was all women, it was very much worship-oriented, which is beautiful. Right. But what I saw, and this is something that I I continually speak to because I don't want to see this continue, is that it was a lot of I love Jesus, which is the most important thing, but there didn't seem to be any transformation that occurred. It didn't seem to result in a lot of changing of life. And so you would you would talk about how much you love Jesus, but everything in your life still looked the same. Yeah. And so the power of the gospel is the gospel of transformation, it's to be changed by the message and the purpose, the, the, the, the finished work of Jesus to become something. Yeah. And so when there is no becoming as part of your faith, then you can be a kid, you can grow up in church your whole life and feel like that didn't produce anything. No. What do I have coming out of that? Yeah. And so when you walk away from that loose structure with nothing to really show for it, um, then you're like, well, does that is that I know God is real, I love God. Yeah. But there's nothing to really tether you to something foundational. And so what we really endeavor to do at our church is to build uh disciples, to create disciples who don't just know about God and don't just say, hey, we love God, but I'm actually submitting myself to be changed by my relationship with God and through the finished work of Jesus. And so I don't know much about orthodoxy, admittedly, but I do know that the response from every church that has Jesus as the head is to really go down that that path and that journey of becoming more like him in our relationship with him, to be able to produce something, to be able to produce not just good works, but good theology partnered together with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, which we really believe in obviously as Pentecostal Christians, that that it's not just meant to be in word, but it's meant to be that when we step out in faith and obedience, that God meets us there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that we begin to see the things that He's promised to us at work. Right. And that is what brings an authenticity to the message that we preach.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

And there lies the proclamation of the fifth gospel. Um speaking of if you're loving this content, if you're listening and this is resonating with you, and you want to uh turn those head nods into footsteps as we say, uh make sure you like this video, watch the other episodes. Uh, we're certainly gonna have uh Pastor Christian back because I have so many questions. Like even when we talk about these these uh other denominations and religion versus relationship, and then what I think a lot of people are missing in in the Protestant community, let's say, is like the reverence that we often see in some of these other uh denominations, I think is important. Um, but like you said, it can be a whole episode. I appreciate your time here. Thank you for having me. Um yeah, and then uh if we could, let's let's pray us out of here on this one, Sam.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Yeah, absolutely. Lord Jesus, I just thank you for what you are doing right now on the earth. And I pray for each listener today that whether they're a man or they're not, Lord God, I just thank you that you've called each one of us into a relationship with you. And it's not based off of our own ability, our own strength, but it's based off of what you did, Jesus, in giving your life for us. And so I pray that right now, as you are moving across hearts and minds, and not just in the young, but in the old and everyone in between, that you would direct our attention to you. That Lord God, as we see and know that you are real, that you are active, that you are moving right now on the earth, that we would say, we want to be a part of what you're doing, Lord God. And so, Holy Spirit, I just thank you that you would lead us and guide us into your truth, that you would bring us into a place of greater reliance on you, and that we would become who you've created us to be. I thank you for the empowerment of the Spirit to not remain the same, but to change and to become more like you. And so we say all these things in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Amen.