Rick Morris - Is Home Distilling About To Be Legal?

A federal court just struck down a 158-year-old ban on home distilling, raising new questions about what Americans should be allowed to make in their own homes. If brewing beer and wine is already legal, why not spirits?

Rick Morris, owner of Brewhaus America and founder of the Hobby Distillers Association, joins the program to break down the ruling, what it means right now, and whether full legalization could be next.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome back to the Lars Lawrence and Show. It's a pleasure to be with you, and I'd be lying if I told you otherwise. Occasionally, and I mean very occasionally, I'd like to have a glass of bourbon or a glass of scotch. I'd like to be able to distill my own spirits. Never had much interest in making wine or beer, but it's always struck me as kind of strange. There are countries like Australia where you can do home distilling. In America, you can do home brewing of beer. You can make wine at home. But boy, when it comes to distilled spirits, to vodka whiskey and all that, you can't do one ounce. And in fact, one time I was talking to a gentleman who was running a small distillery, a legal one, and I said, What would it take to get a license? And this is probably 25 years ago. How much would it cost me to apply for a license and do it through the ATF? He said, large 10 grand, bare minimum. And if you make one little mistake in it, that throw the whole thing out. He had experience. I said, okay, I'll stay away from that. I am so glad to hear that the Federal Appeals Court, one of them, the Fifth Circuit, has struck down the federal ban on distilling, home distilling. And I wanted to talk to Rick Morris about it. He's the owner of Brew House America and founder of the Hobby Distillers Association. Rick, welcome to the program. Thank you very much. Very happy to be here. How big can the Hobby Distillers Association be when you can't do it legally in America?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

That's uh good question. We do get a lot of people that are probably doing this behind the shadows.

unknown 1:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

But we also get a lot of people that are interested in pursuing this hobby and don't specifically because of the legality surrounding it.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Now, do I understand the argument right that the reason that it was banned was because not because it wouldn't generate tax revenue, but because the government refused to issue permits to hobbyists, even the ones who said they would pay the taxes? What was going on there?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

And and that's what the foundation of the lawsuit is. Uh as it still as it stands according to the law, with you know with the ban not being uh well, with the ban being intact, if you apply for uh a CTB permit to have a distilled spirit at the plant, it must be in a commercial location. It cannot be in a residence, etc. Uh what this does is it removes that requirement of having to be in a commercial location. So that if you were to make that application and you wanted to run this DSP from the home, that as long as you meet all of the other requirements, that would be allowed.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

And you'd have to pay taxes. And is that tax based on the No, you wouldn't or would?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yeah, you would still have to pay the the excise tax, which for most people um the the amount that it is going to increase the cost of what they're making is not going to be a deterrent. Uh these aren't people that are just trying to make cheap booze. These are people that are generally enthusiasts. Uh they they love the science aspect of it, and uh that extra couple of dollars for a uh bottle of vodka that they've been able to handcraft themselves is minimal to them.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

And we're not talking about people making booze to be able to sell the booze, just making it for their own purposes, uh and and that way for their family and friends and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

On the hobby distillers association side, yes, that's what we're looking at. Um now the the permit that you would get through the TTB would be the exact same permit that uh you know Brown Foreman, Jack Daniels, would have you would be licensed as a distilled spirits plant. That does not require you to sell the product.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

No.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

That basically is uh uh the TTB saying you as long as you meet these qualifications, when you produce, you pay the excise tax on what's produced, not on what is sold. So if you don't sell it, they they don't care. Uh they've got their excise tax.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Okay, and and how about how complicated it is or would be a so and and I'll tell you what, let me jump to the court part of this first because I'm curious where this is going to go. I always tell people the only way to get to the Supreme Court is by losing everywhere else. But you've had a win at the Fifth Uh Circuit Court of Appeals. Does this go on to the Supremes? Because right now this only applies in the Fifth Circuit, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Uh if you are a member of the Hobby Distillers Association, then you're covered under that blanket because we are a plaintiff.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Oh. So can I join can I join after the fact because I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yes. The uh the TCB is not uh discriminated in that respect as long as uh and and we know this because we've had several people put in their application, so we have to supply them with a certificate stating that they are a business member because as far as the TTB is concerned, this is a distilled spirits plant, so it is a business operation. Um but they they get that certificate, and then the TTB will allow that permit on on those bases.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

I'm talking to Rick Morris, who's owner of brew house and founder of the Hobby Distiller Association. So does this end up getting appealed by the government up to a higher court or does it just stop at the fifth?

SPEAKER_00 5:35

I don't know. Um I I can't even say that they know yet. Uh they probably have not even made that decision yet. But that will obviously be entirely on their plate. And uh they have, I believe, uh 90 days to file. Uh so we'll know within 90 days.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Well, let me ask you this: if this is under the federal government, is it is it up to President Trump to just direct the bureaucracy whether to oppose it or or just accept it, maybe even write it into the rules?

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Uh I believe it's the Department of Justice that actually has a say on whether or not they will proceed with requesting this go to the Supreme Court.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

I think President Trump has some pullover of the DOJ. That's what I hear.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Uh I've heard. I've heard there might be a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Maybe even new personnel coming in. So we'll see how that goes. Yeah. And anything else folks should know about this? Because this just came down Friday, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

It did. It did. And of course, we've won it uh uh one at the district level, uh, and then it moved on when they appealed it to the uh to the district uh sorry, the fifth circuit.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

So it was just a now hold on, Rick. Was it just a happy accident that the decision to end 158 years of a federal ban on home distilling happened in the Fifth Circuit?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Um I don't think so. Um because we are based in Texas, that's where the original lawsuit was, and then from uh these district courts where we reside, then that automatically goes to the Fifth Circuit if it's appealed. So it just happened to be from where we are.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

I don't know. I uh yeah a fifth for the fifth, and maybe we should send some whiskey to the judges on that court. Rick, uh where can people find the Hobby Distillers Association if they want to belong, if they want to join the group?

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Uh if they want to join, it's just at Hobby Distillers Association.com. And uh I will be the first to admit we've not done uh a ton on that website, but we're going to be getting uh getting somebody on top of that to get a lot more information because there are several states that have put in laws specifically allowing for home hobby distilling.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Well, let's hope so. That's Rick Morris, the owner of Brew House America, founder of the Hobby Distillers Association. Last Friday, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals struck down the government's federal ban on home distilling. You've got the Lars Larson show.