The Pest Collective
The Pest Collective brings together thought leaders, scientists, operations experts, and business innovators to share practical insights that impact real-world commercial environments. Whether you manage facilities, oversee compliance, or lead operational teams, this podcast provides perspectives that help you anticipate challenges, strengthen strategies, and stay ahead in a rapidly evolving industry.
The Pest Collective
The Long Game: Building a Pest Strategy That Lasts
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Welcome to the Pest Collective, a podcast sponsored by Terminext, where we break down pest risk from the inside out. We go beyond the problems you can see to uncover root causes and deliver solutions that make a real impact on your operations. I'm Dr. Nancy Toriano, and I'm Jen Fox, and we're talking to Dr.
SPEAKER_02Zach DeVries about how organizations can build a long-term pester strategy that supports business goals, reduces disruption, and strengthens operational resilience. Zach, thank you. Thank you for joining us. First of all, when Nancy took the charge and she was reaching out to people and she said that she got Zach booked and I I you know I'm such a fan. So I even have my fan pictures and so from Pestworld, and there are people in our industry that you get to know and that you like, and then there's people you just especially respect and appreciate the work that they're doing because everything that you research and are doing and put all this effort for is for all of us, and it's for the industry to make this work visible and important and protect it. And I'm just we're all we're all so appreciative of just the body of work that you do, what you bring to the table. I told Nancy, I'm like, is it weird if I fangirl on this episode a little bit? Because I am such a Zach fan. But today we are talking with Dr. Zach Devry. And uh, Zach, if you wouldn't mind, could we just have a little bit of your background, please, for folks that haven't had the chance to meet you and become part of your fan club?
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you. That's it's a very kind introduction. Thank you very much for having me. And now I have the pressure of hopefully not embarrassing myself when I uh but no, no, thank you for the invitation. It's really a pleasure to be here. So, Zach DeVries, associate professor urban etomology at the University of Kentucky. And what I do is a lot of work, kind of like you just described. I try and work with the pest management community to identify problems and then see where my group can kind of plug in and help solve those problems. And the idea here is to make pest management better for everybody, for the pest management industry, but also for people dealing with pests so we all can live happier, healthier lives.
SPEAKER_02That's great. So we will uh jump right into that. So today we are talking about building long-term pest strategies. And so, first question right out of the gate how does pest management fit into broader operational risk strategies? So, whether it's commercial, I think we could probably take a residential spin on this too, because it doesn't really matter if you're a homeowner, a business owner, pest strategy is important. It's not just I saw a bug take care of it. There's probably a much broader thing going on there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. I mean, so ideally pest management hopefully has a deeper thought. I mean, I think sometimes we can get very focused and narrow, but hopefully it is a little bit broader than just there's a bug, take care of it. And I think when it's done correctly and when it's most effective, it does have that kind of higher level thinking to it. I mean, the way I kind of look at it is pests pose a ton of risk to people. I mean, they they have a lot of risks in terms of businesses, operations, how things might function. And when pest management is not done correctly, those businesses can suffer accordingly. Beyond that, we have a lot of risks to public health. I mean, we're not doing our jobs correctly. A lot of what I work in is working in disadvantaged communities. So looking at things like cockroaches and bed bugs and rodents, and when we're not doing good pest control, it's not just that we're seeing these things. There's an actual risk to people's health and in those environments. And so when I think about operational risk or just kind of this broader overview of what should pest management really be designed to do, I, you know, I think it's we're gonna be bumping into pests at some point or another. So it's something that we need to be thinking about. It's something that not just those of the pest management industry, but businesses, homeowners need to be aware of that and just kind of recognize that insects, you know, bugs, pests in general are just out and about everywhere. We plop down structures and places and expect them not to come in, and that's not gonna happen. So we need to be anticipating that these problems are gonna arise and hopefully trying to get out ahead of them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. When you say that we plop down houses, it makes me think who really invaded who.
SPEAKER_00Like we actually sort of infested them a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Right. We're in their house. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yep, we're putting our stuff where they were first, and then we expect them not to come inside. And as we know, that's now what happens. They're they're gonna they're gonna come into our structures whether we like it or not.
SPEAKER_02For sure. And you said something, I mean, we talk a lot about risk to public health. Could you just briefly go over what I know we talk about, there's a connection there to diseases. For folks that maybe aren't in the pest control industry and might not know this. Can you tie some of the different pests to the different diseases that they can be responsible for?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I mean, I think the ones that are most obvious that most people kind of gravitate towards are ticks and mosquitoes, right? So ticks, moving things, Lyme disease, a variety of other ones that they can bounce around, mosquitoes, people hear about like on a global scale, think about malaria, dengue, some of these other things. West Nile has been the one that pops up throughout the US a lot. And those are the ones I feel like get a lot of notoriety, and rightfully so, right? I mean, these bother a lot of people, they cause a lot of death and major health problems for folks. Some of the ones that maybe don't get as widely recognized, ones that we work with a lot, are some of the allergens. We we do a lot of work with cockroaches and cockroach allergens, and you can extend that to rodents as well and rodent allergens. But you've got these pests that are just putting out all these different allergens that people who bump into them can develop allergies and can develop asthma and then have their asthma end up being exacerbated. So they can they could have to go get medicine or go to the hospital to have to treat that. So the problems are kind of essentially everywhere. And I don't want to create this panic from everybody about bugs because bugs can be quite pretty and beautiful, but we do need to respect them. And they do have something they can they can hurt us in a couple of different ways that we need to be aware of.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So the if we could have the star go across the screen, the more you know. Yeah. Is it just important to be educated? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So shifting from the public health aspect, what does it look like to align pest programs with business goals?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think it's a really good question. When we think about at the end of the day, I think both from the pest management industry and whether it's a homeowner or a business, I think at the end of the day, we want our homes to be insect-free, relatively speaking, right? We or we want whatever pest free, we want whatever pest might be there to not be causing us problems. Now, tolerance can shift from person to person, but overall, we just we want to be able to do the things we do without pests getting in the way or bothering us. So, in thinking about this a little bit, I really think when we try and align those goals, we want to make sure that we're working together as a team on this. And I think, you know, operationally speaking, it's really important that pest management be involved in some decision making that goes on. Now, that could be things as simple as day-to-day operations within a business. So maybe somebody's leaving doors opened if it's easier to get in and out. Maybe they have some minor issues that could be sealed up or, you know, taken care of to basically prevent pest entry, all the way down to major things. I think people don't always think about. If you're doing renovations, new construction, buildings, things of that nature. I think it's really important that pest management be somebody who maybe sits at that table. So they're thinking about this and can weigh in on things that right now maybe seem kind of minor, but they can end up causing a lot of problems down the road. I see this a lot in folks that I work with where I look at designs of buildings and things and think about if this would have been done a little bit differently, it would have improved things so much in terms of how easy it is to prevent pest or to deal with problems. But that's all on the front end, right? So it involves pest management being involved in decision making that happens before things are done, not reacting to problems when they pop up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That's really good. Can you give an example of a poor design?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I mean, I think trying to think of a necessarily a poor design, but like, I mean, construction's one, right? So that comes into play all the time. Lighting around buildings. I mean, that's one of the big ones that people are easier to fix, but it's one that pops up all the time. You build this really big, beautiful building, right? And you put a big sign up that has your logo or name on it, and then you just spotlight everywhere on there. And then all of a sudden you start having lots of flying insects that are coming into the structure. And it's one of those things that sometimes those are cheap, sometimes they can be quite expensive, depending on where the logo is or what the lighting is that's up there. And that's a really that would have taken all of two minutes for somebody in pest control to see a diagram of that and mention them, hey, maybe we should think about backlighting this, or maybe we should think about moving it away from the structure a little bit. So really, really simple to fix, but pest management has to be involved in that decision making, operationally speaking, early on. It's you can fix it later, but it's gonna be, it's gonna cost some money and it's maybe gonna take a little bit more effort than it would have on the front end. Yeah, great example.
SPEAKER_02Oh, for sure. And I think that segues into our next question. It might already be asked and answered a little bit, but when organizations are going to grow or change their facilities or something like that, what would be a way that they could plan? Is it is it calling the PMP and saying, can you take a look at this? Is it taking all those things into considerations? What are some things that they could do to plan a little bit better? So you have the lighting, is it from a build standpoint or just from uh like an annual refresh? Or what are some things that they could do if they're gonna grow even further than where they're at?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like your term, like the annual refresh. I really like that idea. A lot of times, I mean, so pest control kind of blends into the background. So if it's done correctly, oftentimes you don't even know that they're there. It's it's we know we're called in to deal with problems as they arise. If we're doing our job effectively, a lot of times people don't even know we exist because they're not running into problems. And that's by design. That said, I do think that that's a really important strategy is having some regular check-in meetings. It depends on the sensitivity of where you work. If it's somewhere where the pest pressure is either high or you have zero tolerance, those check-ins might need to be more regular. If it's lower pressure environments, lower sensitivity, it could be spread out more. But I think regular check-ins, I think discussions of what is going on, making sure that people understand what their roles are from like an from if it's a business operationally, what they should be doing, making sure that they keep doing those things. And if it's on, you know, the pest control side, it's being able to step in and hear about things that are coming up. I mean, one of the examples I'll give is like if we think about new construction, you have people who are involved in the design and development of the structures who are also gonna be responsible for the repair of the structures. Now, it doesn't mean they always do things correctly, but if you have a plumber and they're laying pipe work, they're gonna think about where those pipes go. And if you have a good plumber, they're hopefully gonna think about what are we gonna do if we have to repair this or how we have to fix this. Electricians, same thing. You can go through all the trades, but we don't usually have a pest control person who's there working through this, despite the fact that they're gonna have to deal with the problems that a construction might create. And it's hard to think about until you run into those problems. But I think in an ideal world, I would love to have pest management in some of these situations have a seat at the table, even if it's just to take a quick glance over blueprints or plans or things. Because, like I said, there's a lot of problems I think that could be easily solved on the front end. So we're properly setting expectations for the customer. So it doesn't mean they have to do things, but it means that we can sit there and say, if you if you set it up this way, there's gonna be a problem and I'll do my best to fix it, but I can't guarantee. Versus if you change the design a little bit, it's gonna make my life and your life a lot better.
SPEAKER_02That's a good point. Because I'm just I'm now I'm flashing through cards of inspections that I've done over the years and thinking, man, when they did this, they made it really hard to think someone's gonna have to crawl through that one day. Or that's great. I love all the Spanish tiles. Do you know what just happened from a rodent perspective? Or you know, spray foam insulation. And we have some great technologies that have come up, but we don't think about now we've made something inaccessible where pests can still get in, but humans can't to either inspect or treat or something like that. It's a really good point. I'm trying to think of how many times do we make something inaccessible because it looks pretty, or you know, it's all the time. Yeah, all the time.
SPEAKER_00We have things that are yeah, when you mentioned spray foam, it's just like, yeah, my eyes flash. I'm like, yeah, that's if we don't do a ton of it where I am in conti. I mean, there is some here, but originally in the south, it's like, yeah, it is everywhere now. It is all over the place there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so that's interesting, some different things. And even just, you know, I want to hide something over here aesthetically, but I might not see that part of the wall now again for ever until there's a problem or a leak or you know, something's pooling up somewhere. We have termites somewhere. So that's a really good point. I'm just trying to think now, and I'm gonna look at every building on my way home today. I'm gonna look at every single thing and go, no, no, no, no. Well, you look at it like that, right?
SPEAKER_00And you really wish that you, you know, you see the problems and then you're like, man, some of these things, some of them are harder to fix, right? I mean, these things might not, but some of them are easy where you're like, if we just would have moved that thing over a foot, or if we just would have done this slightly differently, this would have been a very easy fix. And now it's going to be either a hard fix, or the worst case scenario is it's not fixable. And that's where you have to work with the customer, and you're you're now, I hate to say, lowering expectations, but you're modifying expectations. You're letting them know that it's like they were up here, and it's like, well, the reality is given the situation, we're probably gonna be down here.
SPEAKER_02Right. It's something that could have been fixed very quickly, might take a lot longer runaway now.
SPEAKER_01Which is a good segue into the next question. So, I mean, we talked about being present from the beginning, and if you set things up right, then that's gonna have a lasting effect in terms of your pest management strategy. So, what are some other examples of what you can do for a long-lasting pest strategy? So basically, like what separates a short-term pest fix from a lasting pest strategy?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think, and you guys kind of mentioned it at the beginning of this. I think pest management, you know, I guess at least how it's viewed oftentimes is we see a problem and we show up and we fix the problem. And I think, which I think that's part of what we do, and I think that needs to continue being what we do, but I think we need to think about things a little deeper. You know, why did this happen? Is this preventable? Questions like that. And if we can think about those questions, why is this going on? Could we prevent this, or is this in the future preventable? We can start taking those two questions and looking into how do we make this a sustainable solution? How do we not just show back up every month and play whack-a-mole with something as opposed to putting in a more permanent fix? I mean, the obvious one is exclusion, right? I mean, that's the one that we talk about all the time. It's hard. You know, I encourage people when I meet with companies in my area and talk to them about things. A lot of them don't do any exclusionary work. And I wish they would do more because it's such a good service for everybody involved. There's such a big need for it. Yeah, and some of the exclusion work requires precision skills and things. I understand that. It's you know, I'm not a metal bender fabricator, but there are some things that are really simple. When the utility company shows up and they punch a half-inch hole into the side, they run a line through there and they stuff a plastic bag in to fill the gap. It's like, okay, this is an obvious one where we can go back in, put some metal backing, some ceiling in there. We can do some things that are actually rather simple, you know, with a little bit of training and attention to detail, can fix these problems. Yeah, so I mean, I think, you know, obviously the other side side of this is short term tends to be cheaper, right? I mean, that tends to be so obviously companies, homeowners, businesses, you know, everybody needs to think about their budget. Short term is gonna probably be cheaper in the short term. But if we're thinking about this from a long-term strategy, it's sometimes it is worth investing in some of these strategies that are ultimately gonna be keep your home more pest-free and ultimately gonna save you money in the long run because you don't keep putting out fires. You stop and you start you stop the fires before they ever start. Right.
SPEAKER_01If you don't ask why, I mean you're gonna find yourself doing the same thing over and over again. So it's not if you've got a mouse running around a facility, your job didn't end when you catch the mouse. Then you have to say, why are they here? You've got to take the time to find the why, or else you're gonna continue to catch mice in that facility.
SPEAKER_00You'll keep catching mice every time you visit. And yeah, it introduces kind of an interesting decision. This is where I think making sure things are done correctly, and that's why I think making sure you work with a company that you trust, you're working with people who are gonna be supportive, because you want to make sure that everybody's end goal here is to make life better. It's not just to sustainably like your example, just keep killing mice or catching mice. It's the end goal here should be create a mice-free environment or a pest-free environment.
SPEAKER_02And I think we hear the term exclusion a lot, and your mind naturally just goes to rodents. But what are some things that folks can look at just for pest exclusion as well? Because I know there are some things that can be done for the insect space too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a great question because I think some of this a professional can be involved in, but some of this can be identified and maybe even taken care of by homeowners or businesses on their own. I mean, these are the and certainly identified by individuals, looking at things like door sweeps, making sure that you don't see any light come here. The classic technique is if it's dark, just put a flashlight on one side or the other, shine it, and kind of get down. If you're starting to see light come through, it's about a sixteenth of an inch is all you really need for most insects, sometimes even smaller. So if you're seeing light come through, there's things that can crawl through there as well in most cases. So door jams, door sweeps, windows, making sure they set and seal properly, making sure screens, if you open up your windows any time of the year, making sure the screens not ripped. Utility entrances, those are one of the big ones that are, you know, it's a little bit more complicated to fix, but there's something that can be identified. If you had somebody come over and do work recently, if they ran cable into your house, if they ran an AC line, a lot of times people add AC units and things like that. They again they usually punch big holes and they do not seal them up properly. Their job was to put that unit in there, not to make sure it's a pest free. That's that's where it comes back to us. But looking for some of those things, and I, you know, probably the best talk I've ever heard. We have a couple of companies who do a lot of exclusion work. And when they do this, they talk about just looking at the home and kind of starting at the top and then working yourself down. You just kind of look for any hole, any crack or crevice that something might wiggle their way in. Eves are another good place, vents on roofs, gable vents on the sides of houses, all those areas are, you know, your house is very porous, as much as we like to think they're nice, like solid structures with no gaps and they breathe for sure. There's lots of openings in them.
SPEAKER_02I know a lot of people think, oh, I'll YouTube it, oh, I'll, you know, find some tips and tricks, I'll do that. What would be the risk to a business or a homeowner who decides that they don't want to partner with a PMP? So one, I guess, when would you say, enough's enough? I really need to call on the professionals. And what's the risk if they don't?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I only start with the risk if you don't. I'll start there. I mean, the risk of doing this is best case scenario usually, if you don't manage the situation properly, you have pests running around. So it could shut down your business, it could harm people. We talked about some of the health effects earlier. We didn't mention spreading diseases that mice and flies and cockroaches can do as well. So if you don't do it properly, the best case is that you're maybe going to have things shutting down your business or spreading nasty stuff around that you don't want them doing. Where it gets worse is if you do things improperly without the proper training. You know, all of our people, and I would say more broadly, the pest management industry as a whole, there's a lot of training and regulation that goes behind this. We can't just walk into somebody's home and spray something. We have to have training. We have to know what to do, where to do it, and how to do it safely for ourselves and for our customers. And so when you don't have that training and you try and do something yourself, you can end up poisoning people, you can end up blowing things up, you can really harm yourself or other people. And so it can get quite dangerous. And I would say, you know, as an industry, if you if you partner with the right pest control company, what you're gonna find is that it's not their ability to use the pesticides, it's they know where to place them and they know what to do to solve the problem. That's that's also what they're doing, is they're solving an issue or a problem. So I would say that's the danger. So for when you actually ask for help, I mean, my advice to people usually there are some situations we talked about some of them earlier, right? So if your window screen is ripped, you don't necessarily need to call a PMP. A PMP can probably help you with that or should be able to help you with that, but you might be able to fix that window screen that was ripped by yourself. When I think you engage with the pest management industry, is hopefully before you get in over your head. I mean, I think you're ideally you kind of have some respect for the things you're dealing with, and ideally have some respect for the training and knowledge of people within the industry. So everybody's gonna be a little different in terms of what things they can handle or take care of on their own. But there comes a point with certain pests and certain situations where you are gonna need to involve somebody. When you're talking about, you know, like we'll use a couple of examples, bed bugs is one. I can count on one hand the number of people who've taken a DIY approach and have actually eradicated the bed bugs. They can suppress them a lot of times, but they stop doing things and they bounce right back. They never really eliminate them. Rodents can be a really tricky one sometimes. Um, you can trap things out, sometimes in homes in various months, but if you leave, like Nancy mentioned earlier, if you leave gaps and cracks and things, they're gonna come back the next season and you're just gonna be perpetually trapping rodents, whereas somebody might be able to set up a plan that can stop that having to occur. So I think it's kind of a different answer from person to person, but I would encourage people who are thinking about this, it you know, make sure you don't get in over your head because that's where the dangers and things can really start. When you start getting doing things that you really don't have the trainer expertise to do, that's when you might need to call somebody and ladders. That would be the last thing I would say is if you've got to get up on a ladder, consider calling an expert. Too much danger, let somebody who's trained and knows what they're doing, hop up there.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I always thought it was just a funny meme until I met you when people say, Ah, kill it with fire. And then I listened to some of your talks and they went, No, no, no, don't people try and it's bad. It's always bad. It never is a good thing. Do not try and kill things with fire, it is always gonna end in a disaster. So I've always appreciated your outlook of there's only so much someone could do, and it should never start with striking a match anywhere.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's unfortunate that that ends up being one of the more common like DIY strategies is if you find a hole of something, you fill it up with gasoline and you light a match and throw it in there, whether it's yellow jackets or rodent burrows or whatnot. That's I don't know why, but that's people like to use gasoline and matches, and that isn't it. Well, it's a sure thing, but you're gonna wind up chilling.
SPEAKER_01Anything once it might work, but that's right. Wow, what great information. Zach, really appreciate you joining us today and giving us these details and these tips.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, thank you guys very much for having me. It was my pleasure.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for listening to the Pest Collective. Be sure to follow and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify so you never miss an episode.
SPEAKER_01And remember, stay ahead of the risks of pests with protection you can trust. Schedule a free inspection with a local expert at Terminex.comslash commercial today.