Play with Matches
Play with Matches is a podcast for the architecture and design industry’s boldest thinkers. Hosted by UpSpring CEO Tiffany Rafii, each episode goes beyond the work itself and into the thinking behind it, exploring the mindset shifts, strategic pivots, and defining moments that spark real change across the built environment.
Through conversations with architects, designers, founders, and marketers, Play with Matches examines what happens when you stop following the playbook and start rewriting it.
Play with Matches
Pallavi Dean: Design is Not Enough
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What does it take to build a design voice that cuts through noise and scales globally? In this episode of Play with Matches, host Tiffany Rafii sits down with Pallavi Dean, architect, designer, and founder of Roar, to explore how bold creativity, evidence-based design, and entrepreneurial discipline can work in service of one another.
From launching Roar out of her spare bedroom in Dubai to leading a studio with projects across continents, Pallavi shares how psychology and business rigor shape spaces that are both imaginative and measurable. For AEC and design leaders navigating growth, visibility, and differentiation, this conversation offers a clear takeaway: bold ideas matter most when they’re backed by clarity, research, and conviction.
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UpSpring is a strategic PR, marketing, and growth partner for firms and product companies shaping the built environment. For more than 17 years, the agency has helped architecture, design, development, and building product brands turn expertise into market authority.
What does it take to build a design voice that people can't ignore? Sometimes it begins in a moment of upheaval. A new baby on the way, a decade in corporate life behind you, and a creative fire that refuses to wait for the perfect time. In that small spare bedroom in Dubai, Pahlavi Deen said yes when others would have hesitated. A 180-room hotel as her first project, a studio space before she had a team, a practice built on creativity, research, and the belief that design should speak with clarity and conviction. This is the story of Roar, one of the Middle East's most awarded studios, and a proof point that imagination and evidence can work together to shape how people live, work, and play. Welcome to Play with Matches, the podcast igniting bold ideas and redefining what's possible in architecture, design, engineering, and construction. I'm your host, Tiffany Raffi, CEO of Upspring. Each episode, I'll talk with the disruptors, sparking change at the intersection of creativity and business. Today, we are joined by Pahlavi Dean, founder and creative director of Roar, whose approach is helping redefine what bold, meaningful design looks like on the global stage. Let's start at the beginning of that journey.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, it wasn't some grand strategy. I'd done about 10 years in corporate. I was pregnant with my second child. And it was that point in my career where it was like, you know, I need to do something else, something that kind of reignites the spark. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna quit my job, I'm gonna get pregnant, do my masters, and start a business. It kind of was just on a whim and then snowballed into what Roar is today. To be clear, the world did not need another design firm, but I needed flexibility. I needed creative autonomy as a new mom. And that's how Roar was born. I remember we were just two people at the time. It was me, and someone had managed to poach and come and join me. And I said to my husband, I think I need a studio. And he's like, Listen, you're just two people. Are you sure? I was like, yes. For potential clients to take me seriously, I need to make a statement. So I put my money where my mouth was. I invested in a space, and I think, you know, answer for why I am where I am today.
SPEAKER_00Those early decisions shaped more than the firm's trajectory. They clarified the three pillars Pallavi wanted at the core of Roar's DNA: an unapologetic point of view, a research-driven process, and a clear sense of entrepreneurship.
SPEAKER_01I like to think of it as a three-legged stool. If one leg is missing, you fall over. When I started out the firm, I wanted these three things woven into our DNA, and I feel very strongly about each of them. We're unapologetic. We have a point of view, we're not run-of-the-mill. Sometimes that point of view contradicts what the zeitgeist of the moment is. It contradicts what popular trends are in design. But it is authentic, it is honest, and it is our point of view. Sometimes we're wrong about stuff, but at least it's our own mistakes and they're here for us to own. When a client comes to us, they know part of our personality. They know there's cheek, there's humor. And sometimes if I get a very serious corporate client, we'd probably fall out in two months. So I think more than anything else, it keeps away the people who I don't want to work with. And there is a synergy then with the people that I really do want to work with. People who want to challenge themselves, people who want to have a good intellectual debate. I don't want to say push the boundaries because everybody's pushing the boundaries these days. But I think people who value a conversation, a detailed dialogue on design, philosophy, psychology, I think we attract them. But also we attract people with a sense of humor. I always say when I go to speak at panels or when I'm presenting at university settings, I'm not that serious, boring architect. I have a laboo-boo on my back, I have unicorn-colored pencils, I have a pink hard hat. I own every part of me. So people who like that, who can see that I'm an authentic individual. I turn up as myself at home, at work, in university, it's always the same person. They're my people. They're the people we attract. But research is very important to everything I do. I have two master's degrees. I graduated with a five-year degree in architecture, and then I went back to school to learn set design in London. Then I did my RIBA part three, and then I was like, you know, I've done all these little bits and pieces. I want a master's degree. So I enrolled in Savannah College of Art and Design. I was an architect, and then I was trying to do interior. So I was like, hang on a second, I need a degree in this. So I did history and theory of interior design, which I really enjoyed because it had behavioral science, evidence-based design, phenomenology all woven within the degree. And then 10 years later, I had my midlife crisis, and I was like, you know what? I've been running my business intuitively for 13 years. I think I need to go back to school. And then in my 40s, I went back and did my MBA at INCIAD. So I really wanted to bring together every decade of my career. So there was that artistic decade, that whole psychological, evidence-based decade, and then the business kind of ties those three things that are very important to me. Entrepreneurship. Now, this is the key. A lot of designers think about this romantic notion of design, but forget about the return on investment or the commercial reality of running a studio. I think for me, art and science are two sides of the same coin, as is design and finances. It's all well and good being a fantastic creative, but if you cannot make a profit, that's just a romantic idea. So I track profitability, I track time, I track efficiency. I'm ruthless about stuff like that. But I also protect creativity like it's a sacred ritual. I just don't know why they have to be mutually exclusive. You can be a fantastic creative, but keep your eye on the ball, on the balance sheets, actually. Don't keep your eye on the ball, keep your eye on the balance sheets and have the best of both worlds. Not everybody knows how to manage, not everybody knows how to be an entrepreneur or run a business. But that's on you. Why haven't you invested in yourself? Why haven't you gone back at school? And you know what? You don't even have to go back to university. There are so many good business books out there. I read a book a week and I do that on my own time. If I find a gap in my knowledge, then it's on me to go and fill that gap. And I think it's so important to balance design and business realities. Because a lot of young architects chase fame. Maybe when I was in my 20s, I used to chase fame. But now all I chase is financial freedom. Because if I can't pay my overheads every single month on time and make a decent profit, then why am I doing this?
SPEAKER_00But how does this all translate into design decisions that can be felt the moment someone walks into a space? Well, like all projects, it starts with a briefing.
SPEAKER_01A client will come to me and say, Hey, I want this modern design. And I'm like, hang on a second, what do you mean by modern? Your definition of modern could be very different from my definition of modern, right? And that's where I think conflicts usually happen. First of all, designers are terrible listeners. They don't listen with empathy, and then they don't really take a proper brief from the client. So I said, what's a way to mitigate the risk of that falling apart later on in the process? And that is through evidence-based design because you sit there, you gather data. You're a sociologist, you're a psychologist, you're gathering data from different data points. You're doing qualitative interviews with the client, but you're also observing them and speaking to other people and gathering quantitative data. So for me, evidence-based data is about gathering all these different inputs that influence the design. And then more on the research side, there is behavioral science, there's neuroscience. There are so many different philosophies and sciences that apply to what I do as an architect on a daily basis. It's important to learn from and apply those influences and that knowledge into the work we do as designers. We spend 89% of our time indoors. We have a huge responsibility to deliver spaces that work and the evidence-based side of it contributes to it. So great, I have a research-driven approach, but how do I ensure every single project or every single client gets that when they sign up with us? We've developed something called UXD user experience design. It's a 25-step process that every single designer at Roar has to go through before they submit a project. Simple things like, is this space going to have a great story? Is this space gonna make people smile? There are some more qualitative experiential questions like that, but then there'll be, has it hit the function? Does it respond to the context? I feel like our 25-step process is how I've distilled how I intuitively designed and made that the DNA of Roar as a studio. A recent project was Ajumand Ruler's Court. So it's a governmental office, right? And you know, when you walk into a governmental office, it typically feels institutional, it feels very formal. But what I wanted to do is design a space that conveys service, that conveys duty of care, that conveys humility, because governments are here to service the people. That was the whole psychology, the behavioral science part of it. And then when you think about the commercial sense, every material, every single element in that project was socially sustainably sourced, because it was sourced locally. So much so that the government office serves as an art gallery for local artists. So that's giving that end user a return on an investment they did not expect. So it's giving them cultural value, an exhibition space they could rent out, while also performing its function. I think that is a really good example of how we put together something that is contextual, cultural, psychologically ingrained, but also has a great return on investment for the client.
SPEAKER_00Designing this way requires more than methodology. It requires a studio that thinks, questions, and experiments together. And as Roar grew, Pallavi had to step into the role of coach and culture builder to make that possible.
SPEAKER_01My job now at Roar is almost as a coach, as a mentor, guiding people in the right direction. I remember when the whole metaverse was huge. I was one of the first people, and I'm probably the oldest person in the studio, and I jumped on it. Look, I'm on top of it, this is what's happening, this is what we're gonna do as a studio. And everybody was skeptical. And I was like, come on, guys, you're much younger than me. You gotta get on this bandwagon and we have to go in this direction together. We bought some virtual land in Decentraland. We developed projects, virtual projects for our clients in Singapore, in Dubai, on this virtual piece of land. But I adopted that technology and I wanted to be at the forefront of it. I wanted to be one of the leading voices. So it's about, you know, bringing enthusiasm, bringing knowledge, and being a bit pushy in your jobs. But what's also really important is when you grow and when you scale as I have done from a two-person studio to a 50 person studio now, you have to stop being the bottleneck. Can we hear that one more time? But what's also really important is when you grow and when you scale as I have done from a two-person studio to a 50 person studio now, you have to stop being the bottleneck.
SPEAKER_00So the UXD process creates consistency, ensuring that every client gets exactly what they signed up for. But there's one more important factor to stepping out of that bottleneck, the people.
SPEAKER_01You know what's the best part about owning a business? It's hiring the people you want in your tribe. So, number one thing that we do is we hire people who are aligned with who the firm is, the way we work. We do have quite a, you know, long-winded hiring process that is crucial. Because you will turn up as you and I turn up as me. If that's not aligned with Roar, then there's no amount of coaching or mentoring or leading that's going to get you to go in my direction. There's psychometric testing, there's three rounds of interviews, there are page trials. I will go through any lengths to figure out before I make an investment in a human that they are aligned with who we are. And then of course I recognize I've hired people, I've fired people, people have left me and moved on. It's really important to spend those six to nine months in a new job developing that individual. And even then, you can go back after six months and decide, hey, are we a good fit? Because if we're not, that's fine. You'll never know through that interview or even through an in-depth hiring process if the person is the right fit for you. So it's a process, and I think the key really is finding the right people. And I always say that we go to recruiters, we'll put ads out for jobs. But whenever we hire a fan of Roar, that has always been the most successful hire. They get us, they get the brand, they want to be there. Of course, as I grow as an individual, as I get different people with different influences within the studio, we evolve that voice, but then the DNA, our core values always remain the same. We are deeply grounded in empathy-based design. It's human-centric design. But more importantly, there's a lot of integrity. We do what we say we're gonna do when we say we're gonna do it, which relates back to commercial success. Because if you have a project that's over budget, that's run over on time, that doesn't make commercial sense for anyone. Design is super romantic, but if you can't make money on a project that you've designed, then that's just a hobby. As long as you stay consistent with who you are as an individual and you put that out in the world, that's your brand. I don't even think it's an attitude, it's just a way of being.
SPEAKER_00When the team is aligned, Roar gains the freedom to push further and with confidence. That clarity shapes not just how the studio operates, but also the kinds of creative partnerships Pallavi chooses to take on. Collaboration becomes another expression of the studio's identity.
SPEAKER_01When I do collaborations, it's a little bit of creative indulgence for me. I think the first thing I look for is chemistry. Are we gonna have fun doing this project? Is there a vibe that we can get behind and create our best possible work? I also like collaborating with people who are specialists in something that I'm not a specialist in. We're driving each other forward. It's like a great jazz composition. I bring the lead vocals, you bring the piano, and let's rift together and create the best possible version of this duo.
SPEAKER_00And when collaboration becomes that kind of creative exchange, it opens the door to bigger risks and bolder ideas. It brings us to a larger question in Pallav's work. What does bold design actually mean?
SPEAKER_01I think when people talk about bold design, they think of the shock value. Someone going completely against the grain, you know, if everyone's going east, is this person going west? Bold design has so much more to it than just that shock value. It's about intellectual bravery. It's about questioning how things have been done before you or redefining, reframing how things are going to be done in the future. But be bold is also about being vulnerable. You've put your hours and your artistic integrity into something and you put it in front of the client, and the client's like, oh, I hate that. So sometimes being bold is just about having the courage to put yourself out there. You are never going to be someone who pleases everyone. So being okay with that has its own boldness in it. And I think maybe that's what we need to focus on. The emotional intelligence to be a creative is so paramount and is so important. I love Thomas Heatherwick, Iris Van Herpen. She's a fashion designer, but her work is all about biomimicry and architecture. I love so many cool new up-and-coming studios right here in the UAE. I looked to them and I'm like, wow, you guys are really doing something that's edgy and different. I think one goal project is our studio. We did not go down the tried and tested route of getting commercial workspace in a tower. We inherited an industrial warehouse and converted that into our lair, our den. It's got everything that we talk about in workplace design. It's got a nap room, closed spaces, it's got focus pods, it's got collaboration spaces, but also spaces where you can go away and be by yourself. A lot of what we did, and at the time I didn't know this because I only recently did research on neurodiversity, but it is designed for neurodiverse individuals because it has workplace agility built into it. There is something for everyone in our studio. That was a bold move doing that about seven years ago. One in every three girls and one in every four boys is going to be on the spectrum. So it's really important that our workplace responds to everyone's needs. And you know, when people think about inclusivity, they talk about ADA compliant things, but there's so much more to it. Neurodiversity, the simplest definition, as someone has explained to me once, is the fact that we all have a brain that probably doesn't function the same way. People with neurodiversity simply have a different operating system. So their brain is completely functional, it's just a different operating system, and that covers ADHD, dyslexia, dysprexia, you know, a whole plethora of things, autism as well. Can you build spaces that have weighted blankets in them? So if someone is feeling anxious, they can go in there and calm down their nervous system. Can you design spaces that encourage embodiment? We rely so much on our eyes and the aesthetic visual cues that we're getting and we get out of our body. How can you bring someone back into their body? Is it through the sense of smell? Is it through the sense of touch? So incorporating all of these different levels and layers of design is so important rather than just thinking about the visual cues that designers usually rely on. I go back to the statistic I shared earlier. We spend 89% of our time indoors. That is a whole lot of hours that the space can influence you. So I really do believe the onus is on us as designers not just to educate, but also advocate for causes that we are aware of or causes that we feel impact people.
SPEAKER_00Boldness also takes on a new dimension when your work is spread across continents. Roar is now designing in cities far beyond the Middle East, which raises the question of how a studio maintains its identity while staying true to each local context.
SPEAKER_01When Dubai was finding its design identity, what you would notice is Dubai would imitate. So now, on the flip side, when us as a Dubai-based firm is being hired for projects in Bali, in Frankfurt, in Boston and Chicago, it's like, whoa, hang on a second, have we made it? Because it sure feels like we've made it, right? But your question is, how do you make sure the work resonates in different continents? I think it's quite simple. You have to respond to the context. You can't take what's worked in Dubai and apply it in Bali and what's worked in India and apply it in Boston. You're never gonna have a one size fits all solution. So if you're responsive to the context, if you're responsive to the brief and the client, which goes back to the evidence-based design, then you really can't go wrong. It's not about copy-paste solutions, it's about finding those bespoke or curated responses to each of those geographies. But I do feel very grateful, lucky, and blessed to be able to operate in all of these different geographies. It's so exciting.
SPEAKER_00A global presence brings new expectations, including how a studio shows up in the broader design conversation. Pallavis approach has always centered on service, offering research, perspective, and storytelling rather than simply seeking attention.
SPEAKER_01I always thought, what can I give a publication? So I never went in and say, hey, here's 10 pictures, can you publish my project? No, they're getting bombarded with stuff like that on a daily basis. I'd always go in and be like, hey, I've done this independent piece of research. If you're having a slow news day, would you be interested in publishing this? So I think if you go from a place of service and not just that cold calling networking kind of thing, which most events or publications or media today is all about, right? Talk to someone for 15 minutes, get a card, make a connection, move on. But go from a place of humility, go from a place of service. And I think that's what worked for us. I don't know if it still works today in a post-AI era, but that was my strategy. Become a storyteller and be a giver rather than a taker.
SPEAKER_00And it's that same spirit of creative courage and contribution that shapes the message she wants to leave listeners with.
SPEAKER_01Stop waiting for permission. The world rewards the ones who start before they're ready. Creativity is messy, it's scary, it's chaotic, it's inconvenient, but it's also the most powerful thing we have as humans to imagine something that doesn't yet exist and then make it real. And that's the match you need to strike.
SPEAKER_00What Pallavi leaves us with isn't just a philosophy of how to design, but a reminder that leadership in our industry comes from pairing bold ideas with real insight and creative ambition with intentional action. The future of design will belong to brands and firms willing to claim a point of view and to act on it. Pallavi has shown us that boldness isn't noise or shock, it's clarity, it's rigor, it's the courage to bring an idea into the world even when the path is messy. She reminds us that design can be both imaginative and measurable, and that the work that resonates is the work that we dare to start. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Play with Matches. We hope this conversation inspires you to push a little further, imagine a little bigger, and keep igniting the ideas that move our industry forward. To hear more conversations like this one, follow Play with Matches wherever you get your podcasts. Play with Matches is part of the Surround Podcast Network. You can find show notes and full transcripts at surroundpodcast.com. This show is produced by Upspring. A huge thank you to our guests, to our audio editing team at Make a Scene Productions, and to the Upspringers who helped make this episode possible. Brittany Lloyd, Eleanor Ling, and Marcus McDermott. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time.