Divine Skintervention

Looksmaxxing & Men's Beauty

• Ramón and Angelo • Episode 5

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0:00 | 26:33

In an era with ever-changing beauty standards, Angelo and Ramón talk about the influence social media and trends have had on men’s roles and approaches to beauty and grooming. From “looksmaxxing” to preferred brands, we’re seeing more and more men lean into heightened and refined beauty routines, either fueled by, or free from toxic masculinity

Ramón
https://www.instagram.com/glowbyramon/
https://www.tiktok.com/@glowbyramon
https://www.youtube.com/glowbyramon

Angelo
https://www.instagram.com/dermangelo
https://www.tiktok.com/@dermangelo
https://www.youtube.com/dermangelo

SPEAKER_00

Hi Angela. Hi Ramon. Do you watch drag race?

SPEAKER_01

I did for many years. Sadly, since um becoming a parent, I've not had as much time to keep up with it.

SPEAKER_00

Girl, fuck Coco Melon. Get your kid on some drag race.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, um, my child has been to a kid-friendly drag show and loved it.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. What song did they perform?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it was all kind I forget. She sang too. So it was like there there was a sing-along, there was, yeah, it was It was actually just Miss Rachel on a bad makeup day. I had to answer the question, is that a boy or a girl? And I'm like, both, mama.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, if you had a drag name, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00

I thought about this. Because obviously, like on drag race, you have to do your entrance line, and that's like a big part of like your first impression as a queen. So in my head, my drag name was Umami Cheese Me. Umami Cheese Me. And I walk into the room and I like do my little and I say, Umami, I got some cheese for you. Oh. I haven't thought this out. I've been watching Drag Race live every season since season two. I was 15, watching it on logo TV.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Okay. I don't know what mine would be. Like, people have said, like, oh, your first pet's name and the whatever. I'm like, that's your stripper name, but mine would be Candy West. Which is good. But then I started thinking like more skin themed. So um I've been saying that my drag name would be Acne Vulgaris.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Strong choice, right?

SPEAKER_00

We can workshop that.

SPEAKER_01

Um there is a queen. I thought I came up with this, but I guess somebody beat me to it. There's a queen named Neutral Gina.

SPEAKER_00

Love that. I mean, you could really go like the skincare route. You can go, you can do like Naya Cinnamide.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Sarah V.

SPEAKER_01

So Sarah V actually does have a mascot named Sarah V. Neutral Gina is definitely one um Soraya Sis.

SPEAKER_00

That's cute.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. Yeah, there's so many, like Roe, Zacia.

SPEAKER_00

Why not just do like Dermangela?

SPEAKER_01

I guess I could. But if people don't know who Dermangelo is, that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_00

But they will know after that.

SPEAKER_01

But then they will. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have like an entrance line?

SPEAKER_01

Oh my god. Well, if I'm acne vulgarese, it would be like get ready to break out. Because I'm here. Here comes the white head.

SPEAKER_00

Clearly, clearly. You have not put a lot of thought into this.

SPEAKER_01

No, I have not. Not as much as you, but yeah. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, maybe I could do some sort of like gag with like wearing a white coat and like carrying around a huge syringe or something.

SPEAKER_00

I'm thinking. I'm I'm trying to see the vision. I'm trying.

SPEAKER_01

Plastique surgery.

SPEAKER_00

Of the plastique family.

SPEAKER_01

Of the plastique family. Plastique tiar. Icon. Beautiful queen.

SPEAKER_00

Gorgeous queen. Great gowns. Beautiful gowns. And that's not a read. No beautiful gowns, sir. That's not a read. Her gowns are gorgeous. But what's the game? One of the best, one of the best runway packages I've ever seen on drug race.

SPEAKER_01

True.

SPEAKER_00

True. Anyways, drop your favorite drag name. Drop drop your favorite skincare inspired drag names in the comments. Please. Are you on Twitter? Sorry. No, I'm not gonna call it that. Are you on Twitter?

SPEAKER_01

Not anymore. Like, period. Period. Yeah, not no. I just don't. I may have fully deleted my page, but like I don't look at it. I don't post on it. I don't want to like create any ad money for it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's fair. But you obviously avid social media consumer, TikTok, Instagram. What are your thoughts on we're seeing a lot of trends right now? It's like it's interesting because it's like beauty-centric content from men, but obviously they have to like manify it. So we're seeing a lot of like things like look maxing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. Whole looks-maxing trend started sort of amongst young men on the internet, and it's this idea that you could fully optimize your appearance in order to get everything that you want in life. But I think that well, it already started in a bad place, but it has since morphed into something, you know, much more sinister. Um and a lot of it is uh fed by pseudoscience too, and sometimes dangerous ideas about what people should do for their appearance. Uh so I think, you know, as is typical of toxic masculinity, they took, you know, it can't be beauty. It has to be something where you're like risking your life.

SPEAKER_00

Which who hasn't had some back ally silicone injections before?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, uh that's also common. Not in looks maxing, but I think this has been on my mind a lot because as I have said several times, like we need to stop platforming people who don't know what they're look talking about. And uh recently this one creator, Clavicular, has been kind of making the rounds and getting um Is that what he's known for then? Yeah, yeah. So he's getting profiled by a lot of uh media outlets, and part of the reason why is that his methods are so extreme. So I think this guy's in his early 20s, but he's been on testosterone replacement since he was a teen. He wants to get extensive plastic surgery.

SPEAKER_00

Like HRT?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But he's a cis guy.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, he uh says that he takes um amphetamines to stay thin. So things like that, which all of these things, obviously, like doing them in a back alley way when it's not something that you need medically is obviously dangerous for a multitude of reasons, especially, you know, that whole mix of things being cardiac. But um, there are a lot of looks maxers who think that they could increase the size of their jaw by like bone smashing, which is like taking a hammer and hitting your bones, or um thinking that they could massage their eyes into having hunter eyes, so that's more like a positive canthal tilt, or those are the guys who do like that. Yes. Yeah, very that, very that. Yeah, a lot of these people are also taking research peptides, but I think the the bigger issue one of the bigger issues for me has been, and this is something that actually does come out of cosmetic medicine, is uh almost a sort of eugenics uh aspect to it. So um in a lot of uh aesthetic medicine teaching, they talk about certain ratios on the face and how people need to look and things like that, and a lot of it is based in looking at Caucasian features and treating white people. And unfortunately, a lot of the bad work that you see done on people of color is done because uh we have providers out there who don't have a good idea about ethnic differences and facial features and how to make people look natural. Um the looks maxers have kind of taken that to a new extreme, and yeah, people like clavicular have content behind paywalls where they're being basically like openly racist um and talking about white supremacy. So it's a slippery slope to say the least, and I don't think we should be platforming these people.

SPEAKER_00

No, see, I don't know who these people are. I don't consume bad content, and I just remember there was a lot of controversy because he was at like a lot of fashion week shows.

SPEAKER_01

He walked in one show um for a designer who is um, you know, as you would expect, like a right-winger. So yeah. It was it was a bit of a stunt. Um, but I don't think he's being, you know, endorsed broadly by brands. How do you think we got here? Because men were very reticent to get involved in beauty at all. And like I said, it has to be this extreme life-threatening thing.

SPEAKER_00

That's the thing, is boys want to be pretty. There's a specific set beauty standard that men, especially of a certain age, that they have. Their bodies have to look a certain way, their faces have to look a certain way. That's why they all have the same freaking haircuts now. So there is a specific beauty standard that men do aspire to or try to attain. If they can do it naturally, great. If not, they're gonna do whatever they can back alley to do that. But they can't do it out of the name or the sake of vanity, therefore they have to like make it extreme and do the most in like a really life-threatening way. And that's not to say that we don't see this in other parties. Again, going back to I grew up on E. I remember watching episodes of botched or people who die from getting really bad work done because they're getting illegal substances, toxic substances injected into them because they want cheek filler, they want lip filler, they want ass filler, they want gluteal filler. I don't know what I can say on podcasts. Um, and it was having very negative health impacts on them. So, like we've seen this years and decades before. This is just like the 2026 version of it. But if men can't just have something and let it be what it is, they have to do the most with it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. To your point about like illicit silicone injection, this is something that we know is this is one of my my research areas, it's prevalent among um trans women because uh this community tends to be underserved, it doesn't really have the means always to get gender-affirming care. So sometimes these are the means that they feel they need to resort to in order to, you know, treat their gender dysphoria. And I think it's really funny to see the overlap here between that situation and gender-affirming care and looks maxing, which you could it is it is gender-affirming care a lot of it, because they want to look hyper-masculine, they want to be muscly and have a totally square jaw. And I always say to a lot of my dermatologist colleagues, if you think you can't do gender-affirming care, you probably already are. Um, there was one creator who brought up uh that this idea of looks maxing is basically just like straight guys appropriating gay culture because our beauty standards are so high. It's just the only thing that's removed from it is the sexual part of it. And it's funny because looks maxing is often tied to incel culture, and you have people like clavicular saying basically, like, oh, it's gay to be attracted to women.

SPEAKER_00

But he actually said that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but I don't know if it was those were the exact words, but he was like, I'm not even attracted to women anymore. And a lot of these looks maxers are incels to the point where they will take on that sort of stance where it's like, wow, it's really weak to be like attracted to women. It's so backwards, but I definitely do see it mirroring gay male beauty standards because if you think about the prevalence of the use of things like steroids in gay male culture, filler, cosmetic procedures.

SPEAKER_00

Ironically, gay men are highly attracted to women.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe not sexually, but female.

SPEAKER_00

Do I admire so many beautiful women? Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting. Oh. I've been watching a show called High Potential, and one of the detectives on the show, I forget her name. She's so stunning. Anytime she's on screen, I always just go, ugh, she's so pretty.

SPEAKER_01

See, yeah, parallels, right?

SPEAKER_00

What's gayer than liking women? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

T. But yeah, I mean, what do you think is the way out of this? Do you think that they're they're I mean, you're just learning about this. What's your first reaction?

SPEAKER_00

I just think it's dumb. Boys can be pretty, like, be affirmed in your beauty. It's so ironic because I like again, I have an 18-year-old brother who, to me, he's my only perspective into what it's like to be 18 and straight and a guy. And the way him and his friends talk, I'm like, okay, the kids are gonna be okay. They talk about their feelings. My brother is very open and willing to ask questions about like personal care, skin care, all these things. So I thought the kids were gonna be fine, but apparently they're not.

SPEAKER_01

Not all kids, I guess. I mean, I think it's funny, and I don't know what your experience was, but when I was younger, yeah, I wanted to be pretty too. I didn't always know how to say that out loud or to really go about it, and especially as being like a teen where I had really bad acne. I think that was something that I strived for. I've been hitting the gym since I'm like 14 years old. Like it really is a thing. And I think that yeah, we've gone from uh guys thinking it's like gay to take care of yourself or like gay to recycle, even, which I think is crazy. But you know, meanwhile, you go into these guys' bathrooms, what do they got? I think this trend of, I don't know if you've seen this, but women who are, you know, with their hookup and they're like staying at his house or something, they'll like go into the bathroom and record and see what products he has and ask basically the audience like, do we think he has a girlfriend based on what's here? Because oh, uh a dude couldn't have Aesop hand soap or which is like the most manly of the personal care products. Yeah, even I don't know if you've seen, there's plenty of brands that have come out now that are like makeup for men. There's even a brand that's saying this isn't makeup and it's concealer. War paint? War paint is one of them, but there was another one that I saw recently where the the founder literally put up a video and was like, this isn't concealer, this is how to make your under-eyes look better, and it's an under-eye concealer that they're selling.

SPEAKER_00

It's like you're jumping through hoops, trying to like trick and deceive, I don't know who when it just comes down to you want to smell good, you want to look good, you want to fulfill a certain beauty standard that you find attractive. And it's like you're jumping through these hoops for what reason? And it's ironically, it's like you're doing all these things because he's like, I don't want to be gay, I can't be gay. They're gonna think I'm gay. I'm like, why are you so worried about what someone else thinks about you? That's why you're stuck where you are. Yeah. Why are you so worried about what other men think? If you can't love yourself, how in the hell are you gonna love somebody else? Can I get an amen up in here?

SPEAKER_01

Amen. We're coming full circle. Yeah, but I mean, I don't know. Makeup doesn't have a gender, I don't think. Even though it's marketed towards women. Same thing with clothes, same thing with botched plastic surgery, apparently. But I don't know. I think masculinity is a prison.

SPEAKER_00

It really is. We are freed.

SPEAKER_01

We are we are freed from that.

SPEAKER_00

We do pay conjugal visits, though, if requested. I will say when it comes to where the worlds of beauty and men come into play. First of all, from a product development perspective, men are some of the most stubborn, difficult, high maintenance consumers that we have to deal with. Because a product can't be too this, but it can't be to that, and God forbid you like a product. I don't. But I find a sensory aspect around smell is a really interesting way for men to get into beauty. A really interesting example is Kai Sanet. He's a streamer, I think. He launched a brand called Tone. And I recently got a sample of one of the body washers, and it's like they're really nice body washes, really velvety, and the smell, like the scent story behind them, delicious. The scent I got was a sample of this like pistachio-focused one, which for a men's brand was gaggy and it was delicious. It wasn't like too gourmand sweet, but it's like I think of this element of you want to smell good, A for you and for the general public, but also for your girl. And if you smell like pistachio and your girl loves pistachio, A plus B equals C in that instance. I feel like a lot of men are getting into fragrance as a category overall.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and younger and younger too, even designer and like niche fragrances.

SPEAKER_00

You know, my PR gets sent to my mom's house in Florida, and my brother deals with it every other week for a while there. My brother was sending me photos of fragrances I got in PR being like, Can I keep this?

SPEAKER_01

Ah, see, yeah. I think they're they're a lot more into the category, and I think it's part of it is it's something that you could learn about and be snobby about. I think that's one thing with men when it comes to skincare or beauty, it's like they want to learn.

SPEAKER_00

Also, interestingly, on top of this, fragrance also transcends from beauty into a luxury category because fragrance houses, these are the Chanel's, the Diors, the YSLs. So it's also this step into I have a luxury product.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's it's beauty and fashion in one, and it has been for a long time. And yeah, I mean, for a while, anything for men was like a a woody fougère scent, and now we're getting into gourmand. Gour gourmand. Why not? Well, especially a lot of the men's fragrances that I've been getting in PR, like they're using vanilla, they they like to have like bourbon and whiskey as notes because they're like manly, but leather suede. Leather ooh gets smoky, yeah. So, I mean, I do think it's evolving, and maybe that's a bright spot in the whole thing. Um, but yeah, hopefully, you know, men's skincare, which also I I don't get. To me, men don't need separate skincare.

SPEAKER_00

Coming from a derminate chemist, men don't require different needs for their skin. Men don't got different skin.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. So maybe specific concerns, but yeah, because all of these men's lines, they tend to be an overstripping cleanser, a moisturizer that smells like mint, and like maybe a sunscreen that's an SPF-20.

SPEAKER_00

It's always the mint. I don't know. I don't know why. The refreshing, cooling feeling.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's like after shave, like aqua de jo, davidoff cool water, like that's a well, I don't know. Maybe that's what the boomer is like. That DL trade smell. DL trade smell? What what does DL trade smell like?

SPEAKER_00

Irish Spring Soap.

SPEAKER_01

Ah! Ooh, and dry ass, ashy skin as good. Um, why do you think it is that so many men like Kiehl's?

SPEAKER_00

It gives that clinical element of like it's Kiel's is apothecary, Kiehl's is easy to understand, even though there's so much writing on that packaging that it's like pseudo-pharmaceutical and it's easy to understand, and it's kind of straight to the point. There's no scent. The textures are really nice. I love a Kiel's product down, but my inside joke is if you ever see a Kiehl store, nine times out of ten, you will see a man in that store. Because that's a brand that they're familiar with. It's also very neutral packaging, it's not too colorful, it's not too gendered, it's just very and on a counter, it looks fine.

SPEAKER_01

It looks like it's old-timey apothecary. And to my point about men like information, they don't like as in general.

SPEAKER_00

Men want something to read while they're on the toilet.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. So that Keel's bottle, like, give a man a full size of Dr. Bronner's Castile soap.

SPEAKER_00

They go for 30 minutes at least. Sounding out every single word, reading it with their finger.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, I mean, I I can't obviously speak for all men, but I do find that like a lot of male skincare consumers, they want more information, I think, rather than a feeling or a specific kind of packaging, or they want to be informed and understand what the product is supposed to do and what they're gonna get out of it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So Keels is obviously like this is a brand that men love. What what are like the other like men brands? You mentioned ASAP.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean that's for like the fancy hand soap and stuff. Men like ASOP bougie. Um, I think since they've been in Equinox, I've heard more um rumblings around Grown Alchemist.

SPEAKER_00

I love grown alchemists though.

SPEAKER_01

The stuff smells good. Um, I also think, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Melon melon and gets Melon and Gets.

SPEAKER_01

Men love melon and gets. The products aren't always neat, but you know. What you like them?

SPEAKER_00

No, no, no, no. I agree with you. But like men love it. I think it's again, it goes back to scents. Men love these smells, which I unpopular opinion. I think things that smell very essential oily smell really cheap.

SPEAKER_01

Actually, yeah. Same thing to me. Like it's it if it's too much fragrance or if it's too basic, then like this is a first world problem, so I don't know how many people can relate to this.

SPEAKER_00

When you go to Soho House and you're like, I don't have membership, I go 'cause Of like other people and invites, but like Soho House, you need a membership. It's like a high-end establishment. You go to the bathroom, they have cow shed, and that stuff smells disgustingly cheap. It's like a huge like disconnect. It's like the experience and the location.

SPEAKER_01

I'm hoping more men, especially who like you know science and don't want something too fussy, will also turn to, you know, our like Durham beloved brands like La Roche-Posay, Cera V, Snaphil. And I think they do a lot.

SPEAKER_00

They do. They're unscented. They're really, I think a lot of the girls recommend it to the guys.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and again, they're not gendered, they're really affordable and cheap too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. Neutrogena, I think, also is another one that a lot of guys will say that they want something that's like light textured or not too, they need more moisture. But a man loves Hydro Boost.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm a man who does. Me too. What's like a men's focus brand that you're like, ugh, love that?

SPEAKER_01

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00

Ugh. You know. Oh. I think I mean Jack Black Dabble, because like my dad used to use Jack Black and like they have a really good sunscreen. And there's a brand called Apostle that I just tried using. They're a men's color brand. They're really cute. Mmm.

SPEAKER_01

That does sound cute.

SPEAKER_00

I'll have to try that out. It's like tinted moisturizer right now, but they're expanding.

SPEAKER_01

Are they saying that they're not makeup?

SPEAKER_00

No, and the guy behind it is like a makeup artist too. So it's like, I think he's like men can use makeup.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, just so y'all know, all the men that you see on the red carpet or on TV or whatever, they all wearing makeup. They're all wearing makeup. Nobody just looks like that.

SPEAKER_00

And then last question As a derm, is there a specific condition or skin concern that you tend to see a lot from your patients or that you treat a lot with male patients?

SPEAKER_01

So um one thing about men's skin is overall it tends to be more oily, and we do sometimes see, I think, in my opinion, more men with separatic dermatitis. So that's like dandruff, but in men, uh, since it comes up on hair-bearing areas, they're also more likely to get it in the beard, on the chest. It does show up in those areas. Also, um in uh male patients, and specifically more often in black men, we do see pseudopoliculitis barbae. So that's basically severe ingrowns um in the beard area. There's another similar, uh, poorly named condition that can come up on the back of the scalp called acne cheloidalis nucae, which is kind of the same thing but with keloid formation. So, yeah, typically things that have to do with beard growth, hair texture, um, hair bearing, uh, skin. Um, not to say that these things can't come up in women, because they can, and facial hair growth to a certain degree is normal in women too. So we do see um some of these conditions in women as well, but those are the big ones that come to mind.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting. Yeah, the pseudo fil was it?

SPEAKER_01

Pseudophiliculitis barbay.

SPEAKER_00

That I've had done a lot of research and gotten a lot of questions about that because to your point, especially my dad's military, so I grew up around a lot of military people, and you have to shave every day. And so with a lot of this more prevalent in black men just because of the basically the hair can't come back out out of the follicle. And if you're shaving really often and that's happening, you just get like a bunch of ingrowns and then razor burn. Um, glycolic acid is something that I've had to like develop products with targeting that specific concern. Um and then yeah, a lot of men just always ask for like really matte products.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, they don't want to be shiny.

SPEAKER_00

They hate shine, they hate glow, they hate radiance, so it's like really mattifying, oil absorbing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They don't want to look like a dolphin.

SPEAKER_00

They don't want to be a glazed donut.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe they want to eat a glazed donut, but that's about it.

SPEAKER_00

And today my name is Glazed.

SPEAKER_01

Ah! I knew you were going there. I knew it.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you have a great day. I hope you like and subscribe everywhere. Find podcasts are streams.

SPEAKER_01

And if you made it this far, leave us a donut emoji in the comments. Bye. Bye.