Marketing Claims & the "Skinification" of Beauty

In a world where skincare and trends are so prevalent and ever-changing, this episode of Divine Intervention looks at the the extent of marketing and claims as brands try to extend their capabilities in a market where the “skinification” of products becomes more and more prevalent

Ramón
https://www.instagram.com/glowbyramon/
https://www.tiktok.com/@glowbyramon
https://www.youtube.com/glowbyramon

Angelo
https://www.instagram.com/dermangelo
https://www.tiktok.com/@dermangelo
https://www.youtube.com/dermangelo

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hi Angelo. Hi Ramon. You strike me as someone who's very particular about things. Is there something you think you're very like high maintenance about? That wasn't a drag or a read. An observation, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Clothing, probably, like what I wear. And I think part of that is from like a craftsmanship standpoint. And part of it is also from a I don't know, moral standpoint about sustainability and you know, my own uh outlook on the world. So yeah, like you won't find me. Like I don't go on Amazon and buy clothes. I'm not shopping at fast fashion retailers. Like I'm very particular about that.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Other things in my life, not so much, but I do love like a little luxury, this, that here and there. A tabby boot.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

A tabby boot.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Also, you got a good bag collection.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I do, I do, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

How big is that?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Uh I try not to show it off too much because I don't want to get robbed, but it's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Can we talk about the Birkin?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Yeah, we could talk about the Birkins.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Angela has a Birkin. Birkin! Plural! I held one of them.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

You held a Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Sorry, I held a Kelly. I don't know if it was Clarkson or what, but it was a Kelly.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah, so I have a Birkin35. Her name is Birki Anna Grande, because she's the bigger one. And then I have uh Birkin30. Her name's Birkinita.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

So she's Latina if you weren't aware. Very cute.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I mean, who knows? Ariana Grande might be Latina right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

She's transitioning back into something.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Wicked's over, so.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

What are you particular about?

SPEAKER_02 1:57

I have to consult with my husband.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah, looking for a second. Looking to Jorge shoes.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

And specifically, it comes down to a lot of factors. A big thing in this extension to accessories is I don't it don't gotta be luxury, it don't gotta be expensive. It just can't look cheap. And a big draw for me is I don't like black leather.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Really?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Black leather to me can look like plastic so easy and so quick, even luxury. And then when it comes to brown leather, my favorite, it has to be certain undertones because I don't like it leaning too red. I don't like it leaning to certain undertones. And then when it comes to shoes, the sole and the body of the shoe gotta be the same color, a color family. I hate a black sole on a brown shoe. Ooh. Period. I'm not sure I own any shoes that are like brown with a black sole, but it's those like um like Aldo and like those kind of shoe retailers where they have I think might speak a cheaper thing to manufacture.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

But yeah, it's you have one sole for all the colors of the shoe, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

One sole for all the colors of the shoes.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Meet that MOQ. No, I mean I used to have a friend that wouldn't let her man wear brown shoes.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Because she was like, oh, it looks it looks she thought brown shoes looked cheap on a guy or like it looked juvenile to wear brown shoes. And I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Brown to me is such a neutral color. Brown can go with everything. And for me, like granted, I have I have an unnecessary amount of clothes. I tend to wear the same things over and over again. If you've noticed, technically we're filming what episode six, seven, eight of this, and we're weeks into this. This is the same exact sweater I wore in episode one.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Is it?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

It is.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

She's an outfit repeater called the Fashion Police.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

I also have a washing machine. I'm sustainable. Um, but I like I fixate on these like mini capsule like wardrobes unintentionally for like seasons where I'm like, this sweater is gorgeous and it's cold in New York, so I'm gonna wear it all through the winter. And then once it's spring and summer, crop tops are coming out.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Crop tops. I love a crop top.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

I don't got the body for that right now, but I love a crop top. Also, I'm like again, I'm five's seven, so I feel like a crop top makes my legs look longer. It like cuts me off.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah, I have a secret, which is um if I see like somebody selling a cropped pant, I get very excited because on me, it's just a pant. You know, these pants that are supposed to be like to hear on a guy. For me, I'm like, oh, I don't have to get it hemmed.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

A coochie cutter for you is an extra long pant for Angelo.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

It's an ankle biter for me. So um, yeah, I feel that. Even on the crop tops, like a crop top shirt is like a regular shirt for me because I'm short.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

And I feel that. And again, we talked about this. I don't know which episodes you're airing in what order, but we're of a certain height, and therefore clothes for us is really hard to buy. Uh, I'm also really particular around fit, just because I'm built very weird. And so like I like a pant to be a certain length, but in order to get that length, I have to get a waist size that's too big on me. And I grew up without a lot of things, and one of the big things I was always like taught growing up was just because you are poor doesn't mean you gotta look it. So for me, it's I'm very particular in how I look and how I present, because that's just how I was always like that's how I grew up. So I always like to look very put together, very proper. That's why I dress like I'm an 80-year-old man, even though I'm barely in my 30s.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

One thing that that has started reading cheap for me that I never noticed before is um croc embossed leather. Have you noticed this? Okay, not that I'm saying that I could afford actual like crocodile skin anything. I can't. But it's gotten to the point to me where I've seen plenty of actual croc. And now anything that's embossed to look like a different animal just looks cheap to me. So I'm like, it's leather, let it be leather. It will look better. But like that shiny, synthetic-y ass we can clock it.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

We can clock that is fake.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

I know you didn't get real croc at the pay-le-shoe source. They've been out of business for like 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

So that's a reference. That's a Angelo. Age yourself. No shame. Um, what is something you're very low maintenance about?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Oh, something I'm very low maintenance about.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Ooh. We like that one a lot.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Um something I'm very low maintenance.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

I'll go first. Um food. I am the most low maintenance. My husband hates this about me. We go to we go to nice dinners. We've gone to like Michelin Star restaurants. Girl, I'm happiest with a ham and cheese hot pocket. Chef boy RD, I love. A Jimmy Dean sausage breakfast sandwich. Always got in the freezer. What else? Oh, one of my I'm Puerto Rican. We put hot dogs in everything, hot dogs and rice, hot dogs and spaghetti. One of my favorite things is just chop up a hot dog, throw that in the microwave for like 20 seconds, and then cover it and catch up. Hot dogs and scrambled eggs, huevo congeni. I'm really low maintenance with food.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

I mean, uh I wish I could say the same, but like food is so well. You know what? I went through a lot of stages as you know, I grew up in a working class family. I ate them hot pockets. I've gotten burned by them before.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

It's you burn on like the first bite, but then the center's always frozen still.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, always. Um, I once made the observation that Hot Pockets are just Caucasian empanadas. I have never looked at them the same way again.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Appropriation.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Right. Call that a hand pie. Get out of here. They do call them hand pies.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

I'm not calling it that.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I'm not calling it that either. Um, but I was, yeah, also the broke student who was trying to like dress up the ramen noodles, put a little bit of peanut butter and a little bit of sriracha. Or um you could boil an egg in it. There you go. Um, but yeah, now I I just cook a lot. That's the thing. I'm a chef. So I literally had microwave hot dogs yesterday, so I'm one thing that I'm I think I'm like low maintenance about is like I don't know, like the type of stuff that I clean my house with. Like, I find that the expensive stuff, like Mrs. Myers and all that, I'm like, I can't take the smell.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

I mean, I'm also I don't think they clean that well.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

They don't. Like, you need legit Windex. Like, I need the ammonia in it. Give me bleach. Give me, give me the fucking chemicals. Like, okay, I hope that I never live in a place where my bathroom is not mostly white because I love to bleach everything. It just makes everything so clean. Or like fabuloso to wash the floors. Let me tell you something.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

So I didn't use fabuloso growing up. My husband's Mexican, though. And recently, I don't know why I had this idea. I did this thing where I poured a little bit of fabuloso in hot water in a bowl, and I use it to clean a stainless steel table. Streakless, immaculate. And then I was like, in my head, I thought fabuloso was only for floors. I'm like, no, you read the back of it. It's just a cleansing product. And I use it on everything counters, glass, sink, tile.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

And it smells like lavender. So lemon. I use the lemon one.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Ooh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Spicy.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Um, no, but I agree with you. One of my stoat boxes is I I need my cleaning products to clean. These like non-toxic clean cleaning products, they don't do shit. They leave residue everywhere. Can you curse on a podcast?

SPEAKER_00 10:00

You can't. This is like our seventh episode, and you're still asking that.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

In my head, they're gonna beep it out. Who's who's they? Jorge? The pussycat dolls.

unknown 10:10

The pussy cat dolls.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Beep.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Um their best song.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

They're back on tour.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

They are. It's only three of them. A lot of thoughts on this, especially because it's still very much Nicole Scherzinger being like, Yes, I'm telling the girls a set list that I came up with. She also did a solo magazine cover this week.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

I mean, let's be real. I'm very upset.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

But uh anyway. That's open. So something I talk about a lot is marketing to me. We know marketing is what sells a product, it's what entices you and draws you in and really explains what the product could maybe do. And I love good marketing, but I hate bad marketing. What are some examples to you of like really bad marketing?

SPEAKER_00 10:55

I feel like there's so much bad marketing out there right now, but one thing that's really annoying me is the skinification of other categories. So, you know, we're very into skincare, and you think of your typical cleanser, moisturizer, toner, serum, whatever. But now you're getting a lot of uh skincare claims around things like makeup. And that makes no sense to me, especially when it's like, okay, an SPF 30 blush that you're not gonna apply enough of to get that SPF 30 and you're only putting on part of your face, or um, a concealer that has Arnica in it or something. It's like, are you using enough? Is it penetrating enough? They never do clinicals with these things, as far as I know. So um what is the point? It's to have another selling point. They'll be like, oh, made with 90% skincare ingredients. You make a lot of makeup with some of the same ingredients that you make skincare with, right? The overlap is very substantial.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

And like in my head, the degree of separation between a foundation and a mineral sunscreen is actually like very, very minute. They're both usually the same type of emulsion. If anything, mineral sunscreens are more oil-based or ester-based. Makeup foundations tend to be more silicone-based, but it's still uh oil. No, it's still a yeah, it's still a water and oil emulsion or a silicone and oil emulsion. So same emulsion type. Same general type of build, you need to suspend the pigments in both of them. Same film former, same volatile. So it's a very similar concept. We're talking about this, where my main thing is foundation's the last step. You're putting on a very small amount. Hopefully, you've done skin prep underneath. So for me, it's just like the A, the ingredients are going to be in your skincare. If you need them for any specific thing, they're in your skincare already. But also, B, then it's like, how are you ensuring that the Arnica in your concealer is able to penetrate and give you the benefits that you really need from it?

SPEAKER_00 12:52

And I I don't mean to be so I I can't say sub-tweeting in the year 2026, but I love me some Lady Gaga. She's my number one pop girly, and the house lab products are great, but being like this has fermented arnica in it, just to me, doesn't make sense. Especially if you can't show us any clinical showing that that will do anything for skin. To your point about film forming and the layers, it's like you got your sunscreen on, which is supposed to form an even layer, which you better be wearing it because the SPF in your makeup is not enough. The dose matters with these things. So, you know, yeah, if you're using like a piece size of foundation for your face and neck, how much are you really getting of whatever it is? I don't know. I do I do want my skincare to be skincare and my makeup to be makeup. And for me, it's better marketing saying that the makeup is gonna perform well than it has this random botanical in it.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Functionally, those actives are not doing anything realistically. The one the one thing I might concede, and this is really based off of again, what's the prep underneath, is a humectant in your foundation might help to just superficially smooth the surface of the skin so things go on a little bit more smoothly. But then also so is the silicone in your foundation as well. That's the one thing. And even if you're not wearing sunscreen, let's say you're going out to the club at night and you're not wearing sunscreen because you're like, I'm in a club, it's three in the morning, you're still skin prepped underneath it, so you should still have like a moisturizer at least on, and therefore it's still like the the penetration of an active in your foundation, your concealer, in your blush is not it's not doing all that.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah, I don't I don't look for SPF in makeup, and I'm glad to see that a lot of the new bigger makeup launches, it's like they're not. I don't read the bottles for the SPF rating, so I'm not particularly looking for it, but I don't see many of the new ones that are like trying to push that for marketing at least because we have greater awareness around well, a lot of the makeup that's made by the big conglomerates, they already knew. They already knew you weren't gonna apply enough. Because if you applied enough foundation to get the listed SPF, you would look like the peanut butter baby. Two milligrams per square centimeter. Do you know how much that is? It's a lot, face, neck, and ears, quarter to a half teaspoon. It's a lot, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

And realistically, actually, on the brand side of things, it costs a lot of money to make a sunscreen. From a formulation side, getting into deeper shade ranges, it's really hard to make those deep shades look good if it's a mineral-based sunscreen. It's a lot of white pigment in there. So yeah, just like all around, it's just not a good equation to have uh SPF-based makeup in any capacity. You're not getting your worth as a consumer. It's hard formulation-wise, it costs an obscene amount of money, it's like a lose, lose, lose.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah. I've been noticing this skinification uh trend in hair, also.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Yes. I want to make the caveat of scalp and hair are going to be different categories for this conversation. For example, we see a lot of shampoo conditioner treatments, all these things that say that they hydrate your hair. They don't actually hydrate the hair. They essentially, and this comes back to consumer perception, they're playing tricks with your mind by smoothing down that cuticle, coating it with a conditioning agent, something to make it feel lustrous and silky and smooth, like a dimethicone. And that's what that hydrating feeling is on the hair. It's not actually like a humectant. Panthanol actually is a caveat to that one exception as well. Panthanol is conditioning and hydrating.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

What I would say though is don't forget about the scalp. And I mean, there are a lot of brands that are ignoring talking about that if they're trying to put skincare ingredients, which there's a lot of crossover anyway, in hair products. It's skin.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

It is skin.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

It's just, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Is there, from a dermatology perspective, a specific scalp fun fact that you wish more people knew?

SPEAKER_00 16:51

A scalp fun fact.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Besides the fact that it is skin.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

It is skin. Well, the hair openings that our hair comes out of, they're called follicular ostia. It's the same thing as pores. People don't know that. So um almost every pore on the body has a hair coming out of it. Uh, most of it, for most people, is gonna be uh what's called a Vellus hair. Those are like those peach fuzz, like really light hairs. And in other areas, like our scalp, eyebrows, etc., it's terminal hair. So those are the darker hairs. But yeah, those hair openings, same thing as your pores. Isn't that fun? Uh I mean, there are brands though that like um I especially liked seeing when hair uh when Cera V came out their hairline, their focus was on scalp, really. So uh they're like hydrating shampoo and conditioner. It's like really to hydrate the scalp. And I think it's good because people do get dry scalp, they get itchy scalp aside from just dandruff, separate, dermatitis. So it's like it's good to have the scalp moisturized and not over stripped. And when you're shampooing, you should be cleaning your scalp.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah, it's one thing I feel like people don't understand is shampoo is really meant to cleanse the scalp. A clean scalp is a healthy scalp, it's great for hair growth and all those things. And like, yeah, you can use it to get product off like the actual like shaft of the hair, but it's mainly for the scalp conditioner, is the other end of things. It's from like the mid to the ends of your hair. I mean, realistically, like you're not putting conditioner in your scalp, are you?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

I am well okay. As people who don't have hair down to our ass. This is a wig.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

I don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

As say it's the winter time and I feel like my scalp needs a little bit of moisturization. When I'm conditioning my hair, I make sure it gets all the way down to my scalp. I'm moisturizing my scalp too, in addition to if I want to use some sort of a scalp serum when I'm done washing and things like that. But I'm like, get the moisture on there.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

How intensive is the D'Angelo hair routine?

SPEAKER_00 18:54

It's it's not that crazy. I mean, uh right now I'm testing like the new Olaplex number three, so I add that in sometimes. But generally it's just like shampoo and condition every other day. If I need it, I'll do like a uh clarifying shampoo. Um, I like lamellar water. Do you like lamellar water? Do you know what lamellar water you're looking at me like I'm crazy.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

So in my head, that computed as micellar water. I'm like, why is he saying that funny?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Lamellar water.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Who has oh uh that's L'Oreal?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

L'Oreal does it, but like it was all the rage a few years ago, and now it's only I'm only seeing it at the drugstore. And oh man, will that make your hair shiny and silky?

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Lamellar in chemistry is like specific structures formed by like fatty alcohols.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And I think that's what's in it. Yeah, like it has I've never made one of these before. It's still it has like liposomes in it or something.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Which liposomes are basically of like fancy miceels, if you know what my that they have an extra layer. I don't know how to easily explain that. But fat bubbles.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Fat bubbles. Fat bubbles.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Um it's a great product name. The fat bubble.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

You can't steal that. I just copyrighted it and trademarked it.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Fat bubbles. But uh it's more with the styling. I always use like a mousse, some sort of a like curl cream. I like a little bit of a texturizing spray, a finishing spray. It takes a lot to look this undone. Clean. What's what's your hair regimen like?

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Um, I've talked about this in like my content. I'm trying to grow my hair out and do like a little 70s moment. And so that really just entails growing the sides out. And I have like wavy hair, but it gets really frizzy, like it's really hard to manage. So part of it's just been like, how do I manage this hair? Then how do I like accentuate the texture without weighing it down? And it's it's been a process. But like I shampoo and condition in the shower. It's very simple. I'm developing some products for like some personal projects that has been helpful in like the styling aspect of things. I'm playing around with like leave-in conditioners, different types of pomades and gels and mousse. It's it's just a it's a learning journey right now.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Now I want samples of whatever you're we'll see. Come on, leak the lab or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Don't say that. Don't just say that. Um, but one thing I'm a big proponent of is I love a multi-use product. So hair and face, hair, body and face.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

It's like a three-in-one exactly five in one.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Just and that that's a huge interest of mine. Conditioner, motor oil, degreaser, coffee machine, descaler, shoe shine. Yeah. Um, but I talk about noterium's glycolic acid body wash. I've talked about it for years. Glycolic acid that deposits even after you rinse it off, and it's technically in a body wash. Why can't you use it on your face, but also in the hair? Both on scalp and on the actual strands, works wonders.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Because acidity helps to close the cuticle a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Oh, I was gonna say studies show that actually penetrates the hair. It allows it. It allows for increased penetration of um like other things. And it actually does penetrate the hair as well, apparently. I did not know that. Another dermatology fun fact.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

We're learning from each other here.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Who's who said you can't learn while listening to a podcast? Um, and then beyond that, yeah, I'm very simple.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Um, what are some other marketing claims that annoy you?

SPEAKER_02 22:18

My thing is I hate a sustainable brand because the most sustainable thing you could do is not start a brand. Wow. But I think it's really interesting when brands are actually being very proactive as to exploring innovation and technology versus just saying, like, we're sustainable. And I'm like, well, where's the where's the receipts?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I think as an owner of a brand that tries to make like more sustainable choices, I don't say like we're we're a sustainable clothing brand, because to your point, um, yeah, the most sustainable thing is to make nothing, but at the same time, you have to think about uh creating things that actually last from my standpoint. Or if it's a skincare product, something that people are actually gonna finish and use all the way down, and uh, you know, how you do your packaging. So for us, it's like we've tried to eliminate single-use plastic from like anything that has to do with any of our packaging. Anything that you get from us is like fully recycled or recyclable, and so it's like thinking about things like that rather than just being like, oh, we're sustainable. Because also, how do you guarantee that through your entire supply chain?

SPEAKER_02 23:27

The life cycle. Yeah, for me, it's just like I see a lot of skincare brands, beauty brands is what I'm talking about. Because that that's my expertise. Yeah, this whole like, no, like we're sustainable, like we're all natural. And I'm like, okay, well, like, what's the sourcing for the natural extracts? Is it actually sustainable and like good for the environment it's from, or does it have an impact on like the people and the environment you're sourcing extracts from? Yeah. That's what I hate a vanity claim.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Like clean?

SPEAKER_02 23:53

I keep thinking, like, okay, you have a lot of brands, for example, I'm gonna use Sephora as an example. You have like clean at Sephora and all these brands that are like, we're clean, we're non-toxic. And I'm like, what about all the other brands that are sold right next to you at Sephora that don't have those designations? You think Sephora is explicitly trying to like poison people, but you're the one like you're the one saving Grace brand. Like the that dissonance sometimes is really like drawing to me.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Yeah, I think a lot of people don't know what they're looking at or looking for when they look for clean products because that's that's not really a standard to me. Unless it's not regulated. It's not regulated. Sephora has a specific standard to be clean at Sephora, but like for other brands, you could just say you're clean.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

And mind you, in order to be sold in like a mass retail specific environment, there's a lot of rules and regulations and laws that you have to abide by that your product can't harm people.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

And I think unfortunately, that's what people don't get. They're always like, well, like the EU bans X thousand number of substances. And I'm like, yeah, but in the EU, just like in the US, you uh there is a standard that you cannot harm users of the product, regardless. So it doesn't matter here if we say that jet fuel is banned in personal care products. Either way, she can't get away with it. So a little bit of critical thinking there. Well, also, it's like we're much more litigious here. So we love a lasso. We love a class action, even uh medical grade.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Yeah, I see that a lot. And like and when as skin professionals, we're on the same level sometimes as other skin professionals or skin experts. And yeah, it's a lot of the arguments we get into is well, this is medical grade. Well, this is clinical grade. And I'm like, it's the same grade. I hate to break it to you, but the drugstore thing that costs $3 and your $150 serum, same ingredients, you're paying for marketing.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

It could also be like, yeah, if they did clinicals or developed a specific molecule or something like that. But I think this idea that just because something's sold exclusively through a spa or a doctor's office, that it's better and somehow clinical grade, because of the that's just like their distribution model. Um topicals are either cosmetics or drugs. Cosmetics all have to play by the same rules. Drugs also all have to play by the same rules. Obviously, getting a drug product through is a different process than producing a cosmetic. But you know, if you buy uh the serum from your doctor's office for 200 bucks, it is beholden to the same rules and standards as what you'll get at the drugstore. Um, there are some people who will say, Oh, well, there's a higher percentage of actives in medical grade. No, not necessarily. They have the same limits as all other cosmetics that they can't go above.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Also, just because it has a higher percentage of something doesn't mean it's going to be more beneficial necessarily. Yeah. It could just mean more irritation.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Not to say that those are necessarily bad products or like you're not getting anything good with them. It's just that that piece of it is marketing. So when you hear that, tune it out and try to take the product at its own merits rather than just being like, oh, it's medical grade, so it must be better.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Can I talk shit about a brand?

SPEAKER_00 27:11

I would love nothing more.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Um, going back to marketing and claims, and just like, what was the point of this? There's one brand. A friend of mine was shopping at Nordstrom and he sent me a photo of it. He was like, What do you know about this brand? Dr. Medicine?

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Dr. Medicine. I think so. Wait, oh, Dr. Diamond's Medicine? Yes. I guess.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Yes, yes, yes. For reference, I'm gonna have some price. We'll have price points here on screen if you're watching. Key benefits deep multilayer skin hydration instantly. Okay. Fortifies and repairs skin's barrier integrity preventing transepidermal water loss.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

That sounds like a moisturizer.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Protects against environmental stressors, irritants, and pathogens.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Pathogens?

SPEAKER_02 27:48

I think it's like a barrier thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

A barrier thing, okay. Kind of stretching.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Improves skin texture, softness, and elasticity.

unknown 27:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Moisturizer.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Balances a skin's microbiome. A claim. We can talk about that one next. And decreases redness and improves skin tone. This product costs $300 for 50 grams. And it does anything that a cetophyllocerevi could do for you. For reference.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yeah, I mean, I know that they have one night moisturizer that has a retinoid in it, and then they have a serum with like growth factors, which all the rage right now, it makes sense. Is it the most evidence-based thing to have in skincare? No. It is kind of the new frontier, but like you could get growth factors and other peptides at like all different price points. The ordinary has a really good serum. Yeah. So they have one with plant-arrived growth factors in it that I believe is around like 20 bucks.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Yeah. Good clinicals.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Versus like, I don't know. I want to say the serum was close to $500. I want to say.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Let's see. But let's talk about microbiome. That's something that has been hot for a minute in terms of claims, but it's just, it's not all there in terms of like evidence.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Yeah, I think the thing with microbiome is that we don't always know what aspects of the microbiome we're looking at to say that this is favorable. There are some studies where that has been done, or like they look at certain strains of bacteria and fungus on the skin. Um, I doubt that that's being done for a lot of these products.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Mind you, you don't have to test and verify the claim for the product necessarily. If you're sourcing an ingredient from a supplier and the supplier is saying something, you technically as a brand can just take that exact same marketing supplier is selling you if you have that ingredient in your product and just say that, yeah, it does it without verifying.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah, it's like are you swapping people and doing cultures and stuff? I don't know. For a product like that, I doubt that they would. I doubt that they're getting into the weeds for that claim, especially if it's like the seventh claim that they're making. And I think a lot of the time people don't understand the microbiome. That's why uh they want to talk about the gut microbiota and the skin and whatever, but at the same time, they're blasting their faces with hypochlorous acid. Which don't get me started on that. People will say that it's an acne treatment or you know, that it's the best thing since sliced bread. We have been using bleach, which is basically what it is, it's bleach and water for uh patients with eczema since uh before any of us was born. There definitely is theory there. I have done research on this, like, and I don't mean I went to Google AI, I mean I am published about this. And I think a lot of the claims that are being made about it are just not true, and people are ignoring the downsides of us, you know, not being able to see what happens if you're like multiple times a day using the this thing that's like pro-oxidative to just like wipe out all of the microbes on your skin.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

It's very hot right now, and I feel like a lot of evidence people try to push is very anecdotal. And even still, it's one of those where what is the full implication of this? Minus just I use this after a workout and my redness is down.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah, I mean, it can be anti-inflammatory, but at the same time, it could be an irritant. Everything's about the dose and how you use it, and I don't think everything's for everyone necessarily. So don't jump on that train unless you know why you are.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

What other claims do you hate? That's a recent claim you see, and you're like, wow, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

I think recently I was doing product reviews and um I was seeing uh hydration claims from like uh toners that it was like instant 400% boost in hydration. If y'all don't know, the main tool used to measure skin hydration is a corneometer. A corneometer basically is this thing that measures electrical current through the skin. You could correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Yeah, it's called like capacitance. Capacitance. The more water there is in the skin, the higher the capacitance. So like the more easily electricity can flow through. If you put a product on that's mostly water and then immediately measure that, of course it's gonna be instantly higher. Because the skin is wet, that is not a good claim. To get a good claim for this, you want to look at, okay, is extended time. Extended time period. If they give some details about how they controlled that. So told people, okay, we're gonna put it on this piece of skin, leave it alone, don't wash it, don't put anything else on, whatever, so that we could come back eight hours later and measure the exact same spot. That would be ideal. Also, having some sort of control where maybe you're measuring it against the other arm, the same exact spot. What's the difference in hydration? That's what we want to know. So sometimes, yeah, it's just marketing BS. Instant boost in hydration. The product is mostly water.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Yeah, anything that's like hydrating is going to increase skin hydration immediately, but also just give you that instant plumping smooth effect as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

I always say hydration can do a lot.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

That's my favorite thing, is people like for example, Road being so successful initially was a lot of people I knew who had never used skincare buying it for Hailey Bieber, and then being like, wow, my skin has completely changed. And I'm like, Yeah, because you've never hydrated your skin before. And you like don't wear sunscreen, you chronically smoke and drink, and like you don't take care of yourself. So of course you're instantly hydrated for the first time, and you look like five years younger.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

He just read you for filth.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

I'm so sorry if this applies to you. But I've told you to wear sunscreen and you don't listen.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Yeah, I mean, off of that, the whole glazed donut look and influencers who are saying, like, look at my skin, that's something that pisses me off. Because it's like when you have seven layers of stuff on that you just put on, of course, you're gonna look all glossy and glowy. And I hate this.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

I will say brands love to have you do that in a video.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

When you're pressing on that, it's just facial fat.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

It's not you can't feel like this point, everyone's got buckle fat removal, so I'm just showing off that I you're just like I wasn't one of the pack. I still got my buckle fat. Look at my fat pad. For me, it's when it's a 17-year-old being like, wow, my skin is so smooth and plump. I'm like, yeah, girl, you haven't lived life yet. You haven't suffered yet.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Wait a few years and then tell me how plump you are.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Um, one of my favorite marketing claims is Invisible. I'm not gonna name names or drop names, but it's something we see a lot with mineral sunscreens. And working on the back end as a raw material at a raw material supplier where mineral filters were produced and sold, the people behind selling these mineral filters were Caucasian European people. So of course it's gonna look good on them. They're gonna be like, oh, it's translucent. It's like, yeah, girl. Yeah, Kathleen. Of course it's gonna be translucent on you. So there's like that disconnect. And what's so funny is when I was working at the Strometh supplier, one of my big projects, because I was like, this is embarrassing, was optimizing their like shade range for deeper skin tones for their complexion products. And that was the first time someone really ever thought to be like, oh yeah, I guess we these aren't really good for deeper skin tones. And so when it comes to these brands making these invisible for all claims and the people that support them that the brand cuts a check for, I'm like, so you do objectively see the issue here where this is actually this is not invisible for everyone, especially if in the marketing ad the model's putting on like a whisper of product and it's still leaving a cast.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

It has become so popular to have now like the clear gel sunscreen format. The silicone ones, the silicone ones that Supergoop made famous. I don't love the way they feel on my skin, but it exists.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

The silicone elastomers, silicone gels, sunbumptomi optimize the supergoop experience and at a better price. But no, with the the mineral ones, it really is just like that's an insoluble white pigment. And they're actually insoluble chemical filters as well. Um, Tinosorb M, MBBT is what we call it. Um, and those though they do reflect and scatter a small percentage of light, and that's what causes that white cast.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Korean skincare, they like some of that though.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

They love a tone-up, a tone-up, tone up. But if it's if you're already so close to that, where it's like a slight like brightening effect, that's one thing. But if you're any level of melanated and above, it's like gray, it's ghastly, it's we they say casket ready.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

I accidentally bought a tone-up sunscreen once.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah. It's Loki a foundation.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah, like they're thick, like they are made to really optimize the cast.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Where most mineral sunscreens are zinc oxide, these tone-up ones are generally based around titanium dioxide. Titanium dioxide has a specific refraction index that makes them more white, but they can also be a lot more opacifying than zinc oxide.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah, I think um one of the ways that I try to explain how this happens with like the mineral filters is like they people think that they uh solely reflect UV, which is not the truth. Um, but one thing that they do reflect is visible light. And visible light is not the same thing as UV, a different part of the electromagnetic spectrum. But that's why you see them in these uh formulations. It's not just because it's a white powder, it's like when it's mixed in there, it is literally reflecting visible light at you, and that's why you can see it.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

So it's like it's impossible to make an invisible mineral sunscreen. You can diminish the white cast by using nanofilters, which a lot of brands are afraid to do because of bad studies and misinformation. Um, or you can camouflage it with like iron oxides, which are great for blue light protection, visible light protection.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Visible light from the sun, not from your phones. Yeah, don't worry about that. It's the big baddie outside.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

And not me.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Not that big baddie.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

This big baddie. One last one. I know you're really big on this one, is things talking about like hair growth and hair density. Oh god. See? Yeah. Um, let me go off.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Well, okay, we don't have a lot of clinical data for non-drugs like inducing hair growth. So like minoxidil. So that's we have good data about that because it's a drug. There are many trials, large data sets about it. Um, but a lot of these like hair growth products, not based on any science. Uh, and even when they are, the way that the studies are done, quite often, you know, they're not following people for long enough. So it just doesn't make sense to look at hair density at four weeks or at eight weeks, or you know, there's something going on there. Um, in addition to that, like a lot of these products don't even do any testing and we'll just make claims. And the thing about hair loss is you need to know why it's happening before you treat it. So uh I always say the, you know, if you're suffering with hair loss, talk to your doctor about it. Like, don't just buy products off the shelf and hope that they work. Things take time, but at the same time, I always say time is hair. There are certain causes of hair loss that are permanent. So the more hair you lose, the less hair you're gonna be left with. So it's always better to get it checked out.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

What are your thoughts on like again, it's not even based around an active or anything. It's just like, oh, this is like a natural blend of oils that helps to grow your hair. Bullshit. Why do people say they work? And I'm not talking rosemary oil either. I'm talking about like this is castor and coconut and ajoba oil, and you can massage it on your scalp every day.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

I have this theory that people assign magical powers to oils specifically, maybe because they're like, oh, it must be concentrated and it's thick, it's like a potion or something. So people think, oh, if it has oil, or if it's a facial oil, or if it's made out of oil, or if it's body oil, therefore it's better. Um and yeah, there's no data for hair growth for any oils that's gonna convince me right now that I'm aware of. Um, even the same thing with I like a body oil every now and then, but it's like oils are not a complete moisturizer. Same thing with facial oil, which I'm glad is falling out of favor.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

They're not occlusive. And also because they're a lot of them are plant-based, the structures of the oils themselves they don't allow for even alignment on the skin, which would then increase their occlusivity. So yeah, they're they feel nice on the skin. They give you nice emollients and gloss, but they're not occluding well.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Most of the time, they're not mixing any um like humectants into that either. Rinyactives. So yeah, I mean, it's like it's it's skin softening, it can give you a little bit of a glow, but when I see somebody talking about their moisturizing routine and how great it is, and it's just like they're putting on body oil, I'm like you're missing a few steps, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

What's been the most like gaggiest product claim you've ever seen?

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Ugh, the gaggiest product claim I've ever seen. Talking about like lifting, and anytime lifting comes up, even procedures that I do in office, I'm telling people it's not like a facelift. Like we could do skin tightening, we could add volume. I'm never like going like if a patient comes in and they're like, oh, I want this, and they're like pulling back their skin, I'm like, I can't do that. So for a topical product to make claims like that when really it would be illegal for it to do something like that, that's that's outrageous to me. How about you?

SPEAKER_02 41:44

Two examples. One is more of just like a low-key, like brands make these claims in this kind of out-of-pocket. It's getting rid of pitted or textured acne scarring as a topical product. You can't do that. It's like actually, even like invasive treatments make or don't fully even out that texture. And then the really, really out-of-pocket one where it's like, what is an ingredient sales? There's a handful of actives where they like say that it can reverse the age of your cells by like six to eight years. Well, how do you even measure that? I've actually asked and gotten the explanation, and I still couldn't tell you.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Are they trying to tell you like telomere length? I'm I'm tired of hearing about mitochondria right now.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

The powerhouse of the cell.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Yeah, that's the one thing y'all remembered from high school biology, and now people are trying to ride it.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

This is like the NADATP thing that is here right now. Okay, last thoughts for the video. Go off. Go off, girl.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Nobody is out here making these scientific breakthroughs in the the cosmetic chemistry lab. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

But like I can't even read.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

But yeah, I mean, uh keep keep your uh expectations in check.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

My thing is if it actually were these miracle things, A, the government would probably own it. And B, someone kind of going off of A, someone would have figured out a way to monetize and privatize that thing. That's why I'm like, when people are like, oh, castor oil is the miracle cure, I'm like, no, because someone would have taken that, hijacked that, and you'd be paying a pretty price for that castor oil if it really did all those things.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

There would be some billionaire somewhere who owns all the castors and their oils.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

That being said, someone off in the comments, what are some of your favorite or most out of this world out of pocket marketing claims you've seen?

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Yeah, get out of pocket with us and give us a five star review. I think we really deserve it after this one. Come on. Thank you.