Divine Skintervention

Ranking Skincare Ingredients

• Ramón and Angelo • Episode 10

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0:00 | 43:52
SPEAKER_01

Hi Ramon. You're looking very Andy Sax today.

SPEAKER_00

Is that in Hathaway?

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

A reference. Devil Wars Prada 2 out in theaters? No. Cerulean sweater. Oh my god. Thank you. It was an accident, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

America's sweetheart, you know.

SPEAKER_00

That's me.

SPEAKER_01

Um, speaking of America's sweethearts, um, have you seen recently there was a controversy about Christina Aguilera?

SPEAKER_00

There's always a controversy. She's like, or was like the biggest brat in pop music in like the 90s, early 2000s.

SPEAKER_01

Right? Yeah. I heard recently everybody's doing like a they were like, oh, Madonna's doing Confessions 2. Maybe Christina should do a Dirty 2. So yeah, that would be great. I mean, I don't know if you could do dirty.

SPEAKER_00

She kinda did. 2014, 2015 era. She kind of did a version of that. Really? Was that the with the whatever album has it has um accelerate as the lead single off of it? Yeah, that one.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that was when everybody was saying she looked like a Juvederm commercial. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

She was freshly plumped up and pickled for that, correct. But I feel like the the essence of what the album wanted to be was very like sultry, seductive. It didn't have the urban flavor. Urban was like the early 2000s word. Of um what dirty was, but I think it had like the vibe.

SPEAKER_01

Well, now the uh controversy is that she did a hair ad, I think, for Redkin. Nexus, Nexus, Nexus, one of them. Photo on screen. And um people are saying that she was wearing a wig.

SPEAKER_00

She was wearing a couple units, she was wearing a few bundles. Like that hair was not hers.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, yeah, so talking about truth in advertising, especially when it comes to the beauty industry, obviously there is a long history of things like Photoshop or you know, basically like cheating the look to present either a result or just a brand image, whether it be hair, skin, makeup, at what point do we draw the line? That's something that that I had been thinking of.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's the thing. It's like if the the products she was promoting on like the main photo, it wasn't necessarily like a hair growth thing. So it's not like a, oh, I'll have like hair that full and that long. But at the same time, especially if it's like the luster and like the shine, the healthy look of the hair, if the hair is not actually hers, potentially not even human, where yeah, where do you draw that line of like it's not even the product? The same thing happened with Rihanna and Fenty hair. Everyone was alleging that all the commercials where she had that little blonde pixie, everyone was like, Got us a wig.

SPEAKER_01

What if it wasn't a wig, but she just had extensions? Like, would that change it?

SPEAKER_00

A little bit, yes. Because again, it's not necessarily like, oh, this product's gonna make your hair look more dense and help with growth or whatever. I mean, if her natural hair is still what's mostly predominantly visible, yeah. I mean, realistically, like most a lot of people do like extensions, tape-ins or whatever anyway, so it's like and still use those products.

SPEAKER_01

Correct. But people may still use their their products when styling a wig, too. I'm just I'm just complicating the idea here. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with any of this.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I mean, realistically, we're looking at things like heat protect and stylins. If you're using a human hair unit and all these things, and you're really like, wow, look how this hairspray is really just holding the style, this curl, this volume. I'm like, you know what? I would buy that.

SPEAKER_01

You know what? Yeah, it's like if they did use those products on that wig, who's to say they were wrong for for showing it? Who's to say? I I mean it's the same thing with a lot of brands that now they're like, we don't retouch any photos. Love that, actually. But when I'm saying where are we drawing the line, okay, we don't Photoshop, but these people have their makeup professionally done, they're lit beautifully. You could still look otherworldly. You know, what I'm thinking about is even people in the comments on this podcast, if you're watching on YouTube, talk about like how great we look. We're not filtered, but full face of makeup. People ask me this too in my comments. They're like, oh, like, why do you look so good? Did it? I'm like, I have makeup on and I have good lighting.

SPEAKER_00

I will say for a lot of right now, I do have makeup on, and the lighting is really nice right now. Most of my content, I don't do any makeup. And I think it's kind of like the reality of like, no, like my real skin, and my huge thing with being a creator is people will see me out on the streets, people will see me in person, and I can't have someone being like, oh no, I saw hormones in person, busted, clapped. So like it was just like filters are being used, and that's what I really want to avoid. That's the thing. The whole point of makeup is how do you play an optical illusion with light? Either with covering things up or refracting light so that your skin looks smoother, your pores look less porry.

SPEAKER_01

It does, yeah. And I mean, there's other ways to kind of cheat in ads anyway. I'm thinking Lash Gate.

SPEAKER_00

What was Lashgate?

SPEAKER_01

I hate to bring up Michaela over and over again. Michaela, uh I've never met you, but I swear I'm not obsessed.

SPEAKER_00

We're going to Korea. Computer.

SPEAKER_01

Computer.

SPEAKER_00

Make my lashes longer.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So the Lashgate was when um she did an ad for a particular mascara. I believe it was a L'Oreal mascara, and people accused her of putting on a false lash for the after. That, if it's true, this is a legend. I don't know if it's true, but if true, that's very uh egregious to me to be to literally say, Hey, I use this mascara and this is the after. Not to say, you know, oh, this is a completed look and I use the mascara and I have false lashes on, to just be like, okay, on one eye, show mascara application, and then the after is a false lash. That is crazy. And you don't even need any filter or trickery or anything to do that. Like, there are ways that people cheat this.

SPEAKER_00

For me, it's like the equivalency is relevant to us. It's always like sunscreen advertisements where like, no, it looks great on all skin tones. And I'm like, but how much are you actually applying? Or I love when they're like, no, look, a person with darker skin is using it. And I'm like, they put on a whisper of the product. We say a lot with mineral sunscreens as well. Um, and of course, if you don't put on enough products, it's gonna hopefully disappear and look really good. But no, like I need these brands to actually be like, no, the person applied two finger lengths or a quarter teaspoon of the sunscreen through their face. This is the end result. Like, I need that standardization and sunscreen advertisement.

SPEAKER_01

It would be good. I just think that most people are not looking out for that, unfortunately. Like, they're not educated in the space enough to know, which sucks. I reacted to a video recently of like some rando content creator being like, oh, it's not that serious, like you just need like a dab of sunscreen, da-da-da-da. And I'm like, come on, are we really doing this? Are we really please stop listening to people who don't know what they're talking about?

SPEAKER_00

Like, uh, the biggest thing right now on TikTok, because TikTok has actually really ruined the online experience. It's all ads, but because everything is an ad and like creators can make really good money on it, everyone is promoting scams on TikTok. And the biggest thing right now is the Medicure voluplene stick. And everyone keeps keeps going, look at my fingers and how this one looks more. I mean, mind you, the finger is like visibly uh closer to the camera, so it's gonna look a little bit more full. This is the finger I applied the voluplene stick with, and look at how full it is compared to the other finger.

SPEAKER_01

Well, yeah, and that's the thing, and I think we've talked about this here before, but these brands have no control over what these TikTok affiliates do with the product. Uh, I reacted to another video recently where a girl was like, Oh, I'm fully broken out in acne, and this is my skin. Five days of using uh prequels, uh, I think it was the half and half moisturizer. I saw that. Which is not even an acne products, but I don't know if there was makeup applied before, but you could clearly see her hair is done exactly the same all five days, so it was all shot at once. And by the end, there's a filter on the skin.

SPEAKER_00

So there's actually a video tutorial of someone showing how the people do the before and afters using makeup for the before to give you that effect of like cystic acne or whatever.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you could you can make fake pimples. It's crazy. It's just so like if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Everybody's asking me about voluplene now.

SPEAKER_00

And it's funny, is a lot of the scientists when the initial ordinary product came out, all the chemists were like, the data is not there to support any of this.

SPEAKER_01

Like, even some of the studies that they're putting out, so voluphen, not to beat a dead horse, but I think there is one uh study that was done by the manufacturer of the raw ingredient, and they were applying it to breasts, and they said that there was a 2% difference in breast volume, I think after using it for a month. A month, 2% breast volume. It's like not all of y'all may know this, depending, but breast volume changes over the course of a month. Why that interval? Why that measurement for a facial product, and why are we saying that that this now works? I think also the looks maxing community really uh brought it to prominence, which, as you know, one of our favorite topics.

SPEAKER_00

Men in female dominated spaces, the beauty industry.

SPEAKER_01

The beauty industry. Not as harmless as you think.

SPEAKER_00

So we're scientists in the space, we're science-focused people. Uh obviously, there's a big prevalence in what is actually evidence-based. We see a lot of things, we see actives, claims, complexes, devices. Today we're gonna do this episode a little bit different. We're gonna be talking about a couple evidence-based concepts and ranking them.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. Yeah, what are what are we calling these ranks? Everybody does the S tier as like the god level. Okay, we're gonna do S, A, B, and like a D. For rankings. Okay. Um, and we're not gonna hold back, and maybe we'll disagree.

SPEAKER_00

And that's the thing is some of this is gonna be maybe anecdotally anecdotally based, some of it will be obviously we're going back to the evidence and saying, well, like, yeah, these studies show this, but personally, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we're coming at it from different perspectives. Angelo as a derm, me as a chemist, both of us as beauty lovers.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. So let's start with a softball. Um sun protection, sunscreen, SPF.

SPEAKER_00

S tier.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, why do you say that?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, we it's evidence-based. Uh understanding the impact of ultraviolet radiation in a lot of different capacities photo aging, photo damage, king cancer risks, all these things. We understand what daily high SPF protection can provide for you, both aesthetically but also functionally.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I agree. Uh knowing the results of ultraviolet radiation from the sun, as well as knowing how uh use of sun protective measures can impact skin cancer risk, like that alone would put it in the S tier for me, but it makes everything worse. So think about anything where you have barrier impairment, inflammation.

SPEAKER_00

Uh radiation makes everything worse. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So uh inflammation, dark spots, uh, collagen production, like all of this is made worse by exposure to UV. So we have these methods. In this, I'm rolling in not just sunscreen, but also protective clothing. Sponsored by Soleil and other methods of sun avoidance, such as avoiding going outside when the UV index is high, seeking shade when possible, things like hats and sunglasses, and uh not to go off on a tangent, but a lot of people think that userms are always saying don't go outside at all. Not the case. Go outdoors, just you know, protect yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Be smart, be demure and be mindful. Uh in addition to this, specifically because I get questions a lot about it and I like your input on this, when it comes to sunscreen for melasma, chemical sunscreens, where do you rank that?

SPEAKER_01

I always say uh the best sunscreen is the one that you're gonna use. So for my patients with melasma, obviously everybody will say get tinted mineral because uh hyperpigmentation and pigmentary disorders are impacted by visible light from the sun, too. So having something with iron oxides in it, that's what gives those sunscreens their tint is going to help prevent against visible light hitting the skin. And the reason why people will point towards mineral sunscreens as well, specifically those with zinc oxide, is that it has kind of a broader uh spectrum of protection when it comes to UVA. It goes further into the UVA spectrum, and what we're trying to prevent uh reaching the skin is like those longer wavelengths of UVA too. Not to say that you can't achieve that with chemical sunscreens, and there's some filters that are not available in the US that are doing a great job of that too now. Specifically, L'Oreal has Mexoral 400, which is designed to protect more in that long UVA range. However, um, if you're not going to use it, it doesn't matter, and all UV and the entire spectrum is gonna have an impact. So I always tell people if you're just gonna use the chemical sunscreen and you have a pigmentary condition, that's fine to just use the chemical, just make sure it's broad spectrum.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, my caveat to this point is more personal is based percentage-wise, chemical sunscreens to me just have more efficiency, especially when it comes to the UVA part of the spectrum. In order to get really good UVA1 protection from zinc oxide, you just need a lot of the filter. And at that point, it comes back to the caveat of, are you actually gonna want to wear that every day? And Avobenzone, which is the UVA filter we have approved in the US, does really well in the UVA part of the spectrum. So I either say, get you a chemical sunscreen that you want to wear and that you enjoy wearing enough of, and get it either tinted or just get one that you're gonna wear and then put your foundation on top. Because the same things that tint tinted sunscreens are what gave your foundation and concealers their coloring as well. Period.

SPEAKER_01

To to beep beep.

SPEAKER_00

At the end of the day, wear the sunscreen that you're going to want to wear and enjoy using and apply enough of and want to reapply if you're under consistent UV exposure.

SPEAKER_01

C. Period. Okay, what's next?

SPEAKER_00

Next one is a question I get a lot, and different skin professionals have a lot of varying opinions on this, but vitamin C.

SPEAKER_01

I knew you were gonna put me on the spot about this. I'm torn between S tier and A tier. The reason being we have to say, what is the concern that we're talking about? Eliscorpic acid, pure vitamin C is a very good antioxidant. So if we're talking about using it for its antioxidant protection, I would say, yeah, like a great option. And downstream from that, we could talk about things like uh, you know, helping with like collagen production, discoloration. And I think where a lot of people get tripped up with it is that they say, oh, this is like not a great ingredient for hyperpigmentation. Why does everybody think it's so great? And I think maybe that comes from a misunderstanding of what it takes to treat hyperpigmentation.

SPEAKER_00

Heavy on that.

SPEAKER_01

Meaning um it's it's a very difficult condition to treat, whether it's post-inflammatory, melasma, or what have you, sun damage. You need to hit the uh pigment production pathway at multiple points. So I personally would never just tell somebody, oh, just use vitamin C. You need to have something else. Well, number one, aggressive sun protective measures. And number two, you need to have other agents there, which is why usually I tell people start with the retinoid, add on the vitamin C.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, to Angela's point, the way that pigmentation forms from an inflammatory response, it's a multi-step process and it involves a lot of different enzymatic processes that a lot of different actives can impede the process of in different points. So whether it's preventing the inflammation in the first place, preventing the terosination doing its thing, preventing the transfer of the pigmentation to the surface. Vitamin C is beneficial in that regard, but my big thing is with this, and you hear it a lot from like professionals who are who uh have skin of color, so like black and brown skin professionals, they're like, it just doesn't hit the way people think it does for pigmentation, and that's pretty much to Angela's point. The other part of it is, especially L-Scorbic acid specifically, it's a very finicky ingredient to formulate with. Stability is a big factor in order to maintain stability and efficacy. Generally, you're uh formulating at a very low pH. And because you have it at that low pH and in high concentrations, because usually it's like what's the clinical amount? 10, 15, 20%?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, I think 15 is like the sweet the highest evidence-based. Yeah, 20% is a little bit crazy.

SPEAKER_00

But at that point, you're also increasing further risk of irritation and inflammation, which will always exacerbate pigmentation formation. So there's caveats to vitamin C overall. I put it in like the maybe like B tier. I know. Really? And for me, it's because everything that people are like, oh, it's so great for this or this or this. I'm like, a lot of other actives to me perform better in those categories. And they're just like easier to formulate with, easier to work with. So yeah, like vitamin C, I get everyone's always like, it's one of the most evidence-based. I'm like, yeah, that is true.

SPEAKER_01

But like for antioxidant protection, like most of the evidence is there. That's why I would say, as a topical antioxidant, I would put it in S.

SPEAKER_00

It is like the it sets the bar. Everything that's like, oh, it's it has X amount more vitamin C than ascorbic acid, or like it's a more potent antioxidant than vitamin C. Like, that's always the the the base point of how everything is uh compared to. But I mean, I like it. She's cute, but especially if I'm looking at a brightening serum, and I need it with other things, and even with antioxidant serums, I like it paired with other things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I mean uh a lot of the vitamin C products we're seeing on the market use vitamin C derivatives, and the idea behind that is to produce a more stable product that's gonna last longer. Uh Loscorpic acid, that like active pure form of vitamin C, it oxidizes really easily, so it needs to be stabilized in a formula, and quite often it can't be put in at a high enough amount with a lot of other ingredients. So we're turning to ethylated ascorpic acid or THD or other ingredients like that. And I feel that those have less data behind them because they do.

SPEAKER_00

Theoretically, yes. I mean, I always look at, yeah, there's data on individual ingredients, but even from I think how we approach content and product reviews, it's like, yeah, you can look at all this data on an ingredient, but at the end of the day, if you're buying a product, what do the clinicals for the product itself actually show in terms of what they're trying to claim for the product as well? Because if it has 10% three ethyloscorbic acid and this bevy of other antioxidants or brightening ingredients, do the clinicals actually show after four weeks of consistent use, you're seeing a 30 plus percent improvement in your dark spots? Like what? Because at the end of the day, it's you just want to make sure the product that you're buying works.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. B tier. Okay. Let's let's throw a curveball in. Niacinamide.

SPEAKER_00

You know what? Controversially, S tier. Really? Yeah. Why? It's evidence-based. No, I think it's a really great ingredient. And I think people it's a really great ingredient. It does a lot of things. Going back to the scorbic acid example, there's a lot of evidence to show its benefits for supporting skin moisturization and barrier health. To it has a very unique function when it comes to um targeting pigmentation, redness, blemishes, oil, barrier. Barrier. It does a lot. And I think like I love an all-in-one ingredient. I think people got really familiar with it, slash it was put in a lot of things. And I think people, controversial, I think people who claim like, oh, I'm allergic to vital to niacinamide. I'm like, I don't actually think you are.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. It's difficult to be allergic to a B vitamin.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because I mean, if you were fully allergic to it, like really you would be dead. Maybe. Not to say that that doesn't exist. People can be allergic to certain vitamins. Uh, but I think a lot of the formulas out there were irritating because the percentages were too high. That's my opinion. The best data that we have about niacinamide shows that it's effective at anywhere from two to four percent. And we've seen formulas up to 20%, I think. For what reason? To quote Cardi B, what was the reason?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, one thing when it comes to actives is you can't always guarantee how much of that percentage is actually able to penetrate and actually being able to do its thing. I'm not mad at a higher percentage, especially if it's not like an egregious price point. To Angela's point, I think part of it was also like a compounding effect where I'm like, okay, if your cleanser has this much niacinamide and then your toner has this much, and then your serum has this much, and then your moisturizer has this much, and it's in your sunscreen, I'm like, I'm not gonna deny maybe that could be irritating, but I'm like, how are you pinpointing it down to just the niacinamide?

SPEAKER_01

And not anything else in the rest of the formula.

SPEAKER_00

And not anything else in the 17 other products you're using in your routine.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's true. I think sometimes it's hard to pick apart, especially because a lot of the people that jumped on the niacinamide train were the people who are really into skincare and had a 10-step routine. In addition to that, to your point, it's in a lot of products that people don't even realize it's there. And that was another thing at that time when it was really big that I think people started to notice because it's not new, it's not a new ingredient in skincare, and it's been in a lot of stuff. It was just, I mean, I think the ordinary really popularized it and made it a buzzword, and then it ended up in all kinds of new formulas and higher percentages. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like something that's very easy to formulate with.

SPEAKER_00

Technically, yeah, but ironically, in like the higher doses, like it's harder to stabilize.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So, yeah, it's like they're like maybe slipping it in there as a dusting or something, and then that adds up. Um, for me, probably put it in B tier, honestly. You said, okay, the mechanism that it works for, you know, digmentation is a little bit unique. It prevents melanosome transfer, so prevents the melanocyte from prevents delivery truck from dropping off the melanin from the factory to the surface. Exactly. Um, good analogy. Uh, it's been shown in some studies to increase ceramide production. It can normalize oil production. I always say, you know, kind of like jack of all trades, master of none, especially when it comes to dispigmentation. Again, I wouldn't just recommend that alone to somebody. I'm I'm never really super, super impressed with it, but it is evidence-based.

SPEAKER_00

It's also an antioxidant. So to me, like it does a lot. I don't think it needs to be in everything, but I think A, brands got real crazy with it. B, basically the skincare community really took hating and canceling nice into mind, like ran with it. So I just think if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you, but it's a really great ingredient. Okay. Period. What are your thoughts on OTC retinoids?

SPEAKER_01

S, still S for me. I mean, there's good data there for specifically for retinol, a little bit less for like retinal or like retinal palmitate or whatever else they're they're putting in. Obviously, for those of you who have uh not heard about kind of the retinoid pathway, you start with retinol, it goes through a few conversions before it gets to its active form, which is retinoic acid. Tretinoin, prescription trenoin is basically just that active form. It's just retinoic acid. Topical retinol that you would get is like two steps removed from that. Retinal is closer in that pathway. So some people say it could be less irritating, but also it's supposed to be more effective because it's one less step. But the whole idea behind it is we have so much data to support their use in things like uh, you know, the appearance of wrinkles, anti-aging when it comes to the prescription versions like tretinoin, collagen induction. And also we have other uh synthetic retinoids like adaplene, which have actually a different uh transcription profile that they induce, they hit different retinoid receptors than tretinoin that can be even more stable than tret because tret is a little bit finicky, and so is retinol to some degree, and um are a little bit less irritating. So for me, uh I don't think there's any single skincare ingredient family. I mean, aside from UV filters, but like that has that much data to support its use, and it it could really be used for so many different concerns pigmentary concerns, wrinkles, collagen induction, texture, overall glow, like all of these things. Even you know, prescription retinoids can be used for rosacea, for separate dermatitis. Tret is also helpful when it comes to using monoxidil in some ways by uh you know um inducing the the proliferation of the enzyme that actually turns monoxidyl to its active form. Like it's just so yeah, that's why they're putting tret in hair stuff. There's so many uses, there's so much data. It I always tell people as long as you're using the sunscreen and you have the moisturizer and the cleanser, the next thing should be the retinoid. So S for me.

SPEAKER_00

I agree with Angela. One thing to point out is, and this is gonna come up maybe a couple times in the episode, the the use of these actives or benefit of these actives for skin of color, black skin specifically, in terms of dyspigmentation, retinoic acid actually forms or performs a couple different functions throughout the whole process of helping to prevent dark spots, whether it's uh cell turnover or specifically uh preventing the enzyme from doing whatever it does to make the pigmentation. Um but on top of that, I always hear like, oh, like this isn't good for black skin because of irritation. It can cause irritation, which could worsen uh the pigmentation you're trying to prevent. Depending on the formula and how you incorporate it into your routine, there's always going to be a benefit, in my opinion. Some formulas can be irritating, and adjusting to a new retinoid can sometimes be a little bit of a process. But to me, the benefits with consistency and compliance actually outweigh that initial concern. And third, in terms of like the amount of data that we actually have on retinoids, there is actually studies that include and look at the effect of retinoids on black skin as well. So we can actually say, like, no, it actually is beneficial for targeting the appearance of phylenes and wrinkles and photo damage and pigmentation in skin of color.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. There's a lot of specific studies, and I think especially when it comes to pigmentary disorders, even acne, where they specifically studied these in skin of color. Like, there's been so much money put into this. Um, and if the concern is post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation because they could be irritating, that's true of so many other ingredients. So it's like, what are you not gonna touch anything basically? Or you're gonna go without this ingredient that could be so beneficial for hyperpigmentation, for acne. Like it that doesn't make sense to me. So, yeah, S tier. Azoleic acid.

SPEAKER_00

A.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

A tier. I love azoleic acid, and that's an ingredient that this is more maybe anecdotal. The evidence is there to support it for a lot of different things, great for acne. Um, prescription strength is great for like rosacea. Um, it's like mildly keratolytic, meaning like it mildly kind of exfoliates, but it's not like a glycolic acid level, but it's great for texture. For me, if I use it on a very consistent daily basis, I notice that my complexion is just like very smooth, very even. And I like that do it's very difficult to formulate with, or at least was for a while. That's why you see a lot of suspensions. Um, but we've gotten a lot of innovation in that field where now you get really good aqueous solutions of it. So the Korean brands are now starting to drop really good azolec acid serums that just feel like water on the skin. Um, and you also have a couple derivatives, potassium azoleol diglycinate, which I also tend to enjoy as well. Um, yeah, to me, it's like a really solid A tier. I love the ingredient.

SPEAKER_01

I would say, you know, I I quite often refer to this as another jack of all trades ingredient. It's not gonna be my first line for acne, but it is A tier for acne for me, in especially in the prescription strength, because it's a good add-on in addition to other stuff. Like I would never use it alone. I would say for dispigmentation, also like an A, B, maybe B. B for you. Yeah, it's another thing that that needs to be supported, supported with other stuff, um, like you know, having a good acid somewhere in there or something like that, um, or retinoid, or yeah. So I think that sometimes though, people are like, this is skincare's best kept secret. It's like we've we've known about this, we've known about it for a long time. It's kind of it's a really good tool to have in the toolbox, I think. Um great antioxidant, another antioxidant well, like everything's an antioxidant. I feel like we're antioxidants right now.

SPEAKER_00

Jack of all trades.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Master of none, really.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, a little bit of a curveball, not an ingredient, but a hot topic right now. LED masks, red light therapy.

SPEAKER_01

So red light therapy in general. Okay, so I would say red light in general is going to be it's like between an A and a B for me. There are a lot of benefits for the skin potentially, and I do feel like the data is there. The only thing about it is that the majority of the data comes from medical light units that are putting out a lot of energy at once that people are going for maybe a few times a week and basically getting blasted. Uh, one kind of light therapy that we use in dermatology is called photodynamic therapy, and that's where you put a photoresponsive medication on the skin and then expose it to a certain color, a certain wavelength of light, sometimes red, sometimes blue, or you could just straight up use the light without the medication. Um, I've used blue light in that way for patients with acne, and it's somewhat effective, but again, not something that I would use on its own as a first-line treatment. For red, there is some good data about its use for photoaging. The thing with these devices is that you want to make sure that they're working at evidence-based wavelengths and that they're providing a good amount of energy, and you need to be consistent with them. So that's, I think, the the reason that so many people end up being disappointed with it is because you have to be consistent for a really long time to see results. And some of the devices have some clinicals. That said, there are devices out there like solo wave. If the solo wave has no haters, I'm dead.

SPEAKER_00

This tiny sliver of red light.

SPEAKER_01

So thinking about the amount of energy that you want to deliver, it has to do with the irradiance, so essentially the strength of the light that it's putting out, and also the amount of time that it's delivered. So if you're delivering like a fraction of a second over and over again to different areas of the skin, you're not going to put in enough energy to really see a change. The dose is too small. It's the same thing that we talk about with like dusting of certain ingredients. It's like, is it really doing anything if you're getting like a speck versus this face covering mask that has a certain irradiance that you're basically holding in place on your face for a set amount of time? What is the difference there? You know, I came up with my concept of like the skincare pyramid, and like the last tier of it is the extras, the things that are, you know, maybe nice to have to achieve some of your goals, but it would be like the the last thing that I would add on, and I put red light there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I agree. It's like A B tier. I I've seen a lot of conflicting things, and actually that was my reluctance to try red light therapy in the first place of like, well, there's evidence that shows this, evidence that shows this, not a lot of evidence overall. But it took me a lot of time and a lot of like actually going through and reading some stuff to want to give it a shot in the first place because these at-home devices they are a financial investment. Um, and fundamentally, to me, it's just not going to be the star player. Everything else we're talking about in the episode, sun protection, antioxidants, uh, retinoids, they're gonna be the primary focus. If you're consistent with those things, that's gonna be beneficial enough. And having the extra of a red light therapy mask, it's gonna be like a solid background dancer. But the one that's like standing right next to the main performer, you still see them on you still see them on screen. They're still doing a little something. I think there is evidence they do work, it's just not the primary thing you should be wanting in your routine, especially if you're not using sun protection in the first place.

SPEAKER_01

Glycolic acid.

SPEAKER_00

S tier.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love glycolic acid. I am like glycolic acid's biggest stan. I'm working on a lot of personal projects with it for that specific reason. But fundamentally, I think it just does a lot of great things. It is like the star AHA, first of all. So especially when you're focusing on texture, amazing. Um, anti-aging benefits, nice benefits in that as well. Great for texture, great for acne, great for body-related concerns. Um, great for hair and scalp and feet. And also, people use it for like deodorant and that kind of stuff, or like to support and like a deodorizing routine. That one really I'm not a big fan of it.

SPEAKER_01

I don't love that. Yeah, so just so y'all know, um, the skin under here is is pretty thin, and putting anything in an opposing surface makes it more irritating than it would have been. So uh glycolic acid, due to its small size, its small molecular size, penetrates more deeply and can be more irritating than even other AHAs, alpha hydroxy acids. So I would tell people that there are a lot of uh new deodorants out there that have an acid component in them.

SPEAKER_00

Mandelic acid.

SPEAKER_01

Usually it's mandelic, which uh larger molecule size, so it can be less irritating. That would maybe be the way to go rather than like putting a pure glycolic acid product on the underarm.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I agree with that. The deodorant one I'm not a huge fan of. But another point to what Angelo just said is concentration plays a huge factor as well. So like the ordinary has their 7% glycolic acid. To me, that's like a nice little sweet spot. Depending on where my skin's at, that might be like a little bit spicy. And depending on the application that I'm playing with it in, I range between like three to ten. Um, but I think if you can tolerate it, it's really, really good. And I think overall formulation really matters a lot as well. I swear back in the day, the ordinary's glycolic acid toner had a very short, very simple ingredients list. And when I bought my last bottle, I'm like, when did the ingredients list get this long? I think part of that is to kind of counteract a lot of the irritating effects of glycolic acid.

SPEAKER_01

I recently used it for the first time. I had not used that product. I put it on my face once. It didn't irritate me. I use it all the time. So we shall see.

SPEAKER_00

I just like the big bottle because I literally lather my body in that.

SPEAKER_01

Anything that comes in a big bottle, I think is great because yeah, to your point about multi-purpose.

SPEAKER_00

Like literally, sometimes I'll just stand under the bottle and just from head to toe.

SPEAKER_01

With your eyes closed, hopefully.

SPEAKER_00

I like the burn actually. Ah so what's it for uh A tier, S tier?

SPEAKER_01

Uh S to A for me. Like, yeah, that there's good data. Uh but it depends on on what the data is about. I think for anti-aging it's pretty good. Dispigmentation, it's pretty good. Um, a lot of the other uses, like plus minus. Yeah. So it's a good one to introduce, especially if you're uh looking to put exfoliation into your routine, which by the way, you don't have to exfoliate. You don't have to.

SPEAKER_00

You don't have to. I have to.

SPEAKER_01

It's helpful.

SPEAKER_00

It can be helpful, but your skin naturally does desquamate, though.

SPEAKER_01

Well, also, if if you're using a retinoid, you you're gonna have uh normalization of that skin cell turnover. So uh uh you can. Well, like another thing that I hate is people saying, like, oh, you can't use glycolic acid and retinol retinoids together. Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_00

For me, it's that you can't use glycolic acid if you have skin of color.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I hate that. I hate it. Uh that's another thing where they're like, it could be irritating. So don't, because it could cause hyperpigmentation. But it's like if you know what you're doing, it could actually be a great ingredient for hyperpigmentation.

SPEAKER_00

And formulation does matter.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. So see.

SPEAKER_00

Last one for you. Dimethicone in skincare.

SPEAKER_01

Dimethicone's an OTC drug, by the way. Skin protectant? Skin protectant. I would say I would give it an A.

SPEAKER_00

What's the percentage for that? Threshold 5? Or just like a claim?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, no, there's there's like a certain percentage you have to have to make the claim. The drug claim to have the mind. It's an A for me, especially when it comes to products for like eczema.

SPEAKER_00

What people don't know is that what you see as demethicone on an ingredients list, when we formulate with it, it's demethicone of a certain viscosity, and there's a wide range from literally it feels like a dry oil, there's no weight to it, to it's a thick, heavy syrup, but it all reads as dimethicone on an ingredients list, and that's where these things matter, especially when it comes to the final product. I see a lot of people, for me, it's an S. I see a lot of people for a couple different reasons talk about how, oh, it's just in a product to help it spread nice. Which again to Angela's point, actually, it can be a skin protectant, but also there have been studies showing that dimethicone is used a lot of times to replace oils in products because dimethicone is a lot more lightweight. Um, it does facilitate spread, but it also makes products feel more lightweight and nice on the skin, which, if you are using benyl peroxide in heavy, drying, irritating treatments, having a moisturizer featuring dimethicone instead of an oil increases compliance of the actives because if you're like, oh, I have a moisturizer that moisturizes my skin, doesn't feel heavy, mitigates some of the negative responses from my acne treatment. And then because of that, I'm gonna keep using the treatment. So I do see a benefit. And overall, I just think, again, it feels nice, it helps with spread, makes things feel lightweight. I have oily skin. Um, people also shit on dimethicone in hair.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think it's because they don't understand what it's there for.

SPEAKER_00

People I one thing I've gotten is people are always like, how can I guarantee it's getting cleansed off? It's not building up. Okay. Wash your hair. Yeah. It's easy to get off.

SPEAKER_01

Like it's not like it's it I think a lot of people don't understand hair biology, and maybe that's the issue with a lot of these things. Uh, especially certain ingredient concerns, and they they again don't realize the impact of overall formula. I mean, we keep going back to that, but it's true, especially with hair, because I find that there's so many free-from clams like silicone-free, sulfate-free, this free, that free, and it's based on outdated ideas about ingredients versus formula.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think there's a lot of different ways to formulate with it and a lot of different benefits it can give in your products. And because of that, and again, how it improves sensory, and at the end of the day, you enjoying a product is going to make you want to use it more. So to improve the sensory and still have actual functional benefits beyond that, yes. For me. Alright. Final thoughts. We like a lot of skincare ingredients. Nothing, there's nothing in that D tier. Damn, yeah. Actually, we didn't put anything in the D tier. Speed round, something you'd put in the D tier.

SPEAKER_01

N A D, P D R N.

SPEAKER_00

I'm thinking. Those go, there has to be like a B, uh in between B and D. No, yeah, D tier for those. What would I put? Titanium dioxide. Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Damn.

SPEAKER_00

It's just so white. I hate mineral filters, period, but yeah, not titanium dioxide. If I could choose one.

SPEAKER_01

Titanium, you heard it here. It's on site.

SPEAKER_00

And with that, uh, in the comment section, tell us where you would bring some of these ingredients. Sush, what would you put in the D tier?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, argue with us, please. I love reading the comments on YouTube. And like, if you're on one of the other platforms, please leave a review. It helps a lot. Or like, share this. Follow us on social, on IG, we're at Divine Skin Intervention. Lots of cool little videos coming out.

SPEAKER_00

So be sure to stream, follow, and turn your notifications on.