Chemists Gone Wild (w/ Jane Tsui & Alex Padgett)

We said there was no difference between your drugstore products and “medical”/“clinical” grade products, and a lot of people didn’t like that. So we brought two other chemists who’ve worked BTS in manufacturing to explain further about how the difference between them is even smaller than you think. Beyond that, this week’s Heavenly Thotties Alex Padgett (@alexeducatedmess) and Jane Tsui (@janethechemist) share more about what the product development process looks like, what launches they love and hate, and what they really consider to be innovative in the current array of cosmetic brands and launches!

Follow Jane & Alex!

https://www.instagram.com/janethechemist
https://www.tiktok.com/@janethechemist

https://www.instagram.com/alexeducatedmess
https://www.tiktok.com/@alexeducatedmess

Ramón
https://www.instagram.com/glowbyramon/
https://www.tiktok.com/@glowbyramon
https://www.youtube.com/glowbyramon

Angelo
https://www.instagram.com/dermangelo
https://www.tiktok.com/@dermangelo
https://www.youtube.com/dermangelo

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hi Ramon. Hi, Angelo. So it was just suppliers' day. Suppliers day. Yes, it was girl. Here in New York, which is actually two days. And not three like I thought it was. So it should really be suppliers' days. But uh can you tell me about that? Because this is a big event in the cosmetic science world. Science world, yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

Yeah. So uh in the cosmetic science world, formulation world, chemist world, we have these trade shows where we go and shop for primarily ingredients. Um some of these trade shows might deal more with packaging or maybe like testing, manufacturing, all those things. Supplier's Day is very ingredient heavy. So it's where we, it's like our grocery store. We go and shop for ingredients, and by that we're just asking what's new, hey, who can supply me these things, etc. Um, so Supplier's Day just happened and all the chemists were in town. You might have seen us all posting together on our stories because this is really like a class reunion for us. We like get together, walk the show, and then we party afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Hey.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

But it's a really good networking opportunity. Also, if you're a student and want to break into the cosmetic science industry, these trade shows, super useful.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Yeah. So didn't you uh you taught a workshop, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:18

I did. I did the Future Chemist workshop this year, day one. Uh Julian Sass did day two, and basically students had to apply beforehand to be able to participate. And we, yeah, in one session, we formulated a product together, talked about raw materials, and also because there's students trying to break into the industry, you just get a good opportunity to talk to us about how to break into the industry.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Amazing. Yeah, these trade shows are really, I think, a peak behind the curtain. Recently, LuxPack was in town, so that's a packaging convention, and I got to speak at it on a panel on behalf of Soleil. But you have all of these like packaging suppliers there and they're showing their work, including like the labels on it and everything. So I'm like, oh, you make the packaging for this product, for that product, for the other thing. Um, and it's so interesting. Are are these suppliers also kind of like outing the brands that are using their product?

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Not exactly, not all the time, especially because it's like, for example, like a glycerin, just to throw something out there. 17 of these suppliers could be supplying glycerin, and therefore glycerin's in everything. You never know who's actually supplying it to X brand or whatever. Some of them are very specialized though. I ran into one guy because I was looking for some sunscreen specific ingredients, and he was like, Oh, you know SC Lauder Doubleware? And I was like, Do I? The original ingredient that made it really iconic, um, they provided that. And I guess in the last, I don't know how many years, SC Lauder reformulated, took that ingredient out. So then, because SC Lauder didn't have the monopoly on that, they didn't have the sole ownership of that ingredient, the supplier was not able to offer it to anyone. And so he was like, if you want that specific ingredient, we got it for you.

unknown 3:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

Yeah, but no, to Angelo's point, especially if we go to the more manufacturing ones or like manufacturing focus shows, the manufacturers will show the entire brands and ranges they've um developed formulas for. So I remember going and seeing some of the Korean brands really show up and show out about like, oh yeah, all the tower 28s, tinted sunscreens, road, fenty, like we did all of it.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Yeah, and a lot of these are actually free to get into.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Well, so if you're a skincare nerd and you happen to be in town, you can make your way in. What were some of the trends that you were seeing?

SPEAKER_04 3:38

What is wild, especially because we as scientists and science communicators and we make content around it, is we always see this we see the trend ingredients, especially the ones that come out of Korea, and we question some of the validity of the claims and the benefits, but then the suppliers, I think because the brands themselves are requesting it, or the suppliers know tea, some of their awareness and understanding of trends and relevancy is very delayed. Uh-uh. These people are not on top of things. Um suppliers see the interest and then they're like, oh, we have to offer that. So you saw a lot of exosomes. You saw a good amount of PDRN focused things. What else? A lot of a lot of just high naturality things. So like natural extracts that do XYZ alternatives for synthetics. PDRN and exosomes this year was crazy. Anything you were really impressed by. Being really honest, at this point, some of the act you at this point, I'm shopping for very specific projects. So I have a clear intent or a clear need in mind. That's what I'm going by. So some of the I've learned what these manufacturers and suppliers are really putting up front is what they're really trying to push because it's new. And some of it's just not, it's not great. So I actually ignore that. Um I'm looking at a lot more of the functional materials. So things that make your products feel nice, look nice, work well. I'm looking more for those things. And I guess it's interesting when you like are specific to I need something for this benefit, and a supplier is like, Oh, we have this, and I'm like, Oh, I've seen this in like 15 other products. I didn't realize that's what it was doing, or I didn't realize you made that ingredient. I feel like this year, there's a lot of hair density focus actives.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

Like, um I know you hate this. Um kind of like invigorating your hair follicles to produce more hair, but it's like really promoting like more density in your hair.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Yeah, what the hell does that even mean? Exactly. Yeah, they're trying to make claims about hair loss without saying it. Like, that's the the issue. Like I hair loss and hair growth, as people call it, because they think they're two different things, but truly it's not. Um it's just so complex. And a lot of the issues that people are having with it are medical issues. So I don't know, when these uh, you know, suppliers come out with these new cosmetic ingredients claiming it does something, it's like they have to skirt around the truth really of what they're saying. Most of the time they don't have any really good data to show, so it's like we're just all wasting everybody's time, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_04 6:15

Yeah, and the claims they're able to make because suppliers are not held to the same standards as actual brands are in terms of what drug versus cosmetic claims you can make. They make crazy claims. My favorite is like, oh, we can reverse cell age by like eight years, and I'm like, what is what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yeah, how can you tell it's eight years younger?

SPEAKER_04 6:34

They've actually explained it to me before, and I'm like, okay, but topically applying that, what is it really doing for the skin?

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

People don't want their cells to like be younger. They want to look younger, they want their fine lines reduced, they want their skin firmer and plump, they want to be snatched.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

I mean, I would take a younger cell.

SPEAKER_04 6:51

Okay. That's valid, I affirm you.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

And all of those other things too, but I just don't think these cosmetic ingredients can do it.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

And that's where someone like Angelo steps in.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

To to nay say everything. Somebody said recently that I'm negative in every single video.

SPEAKER_04 7:07

I meant to say that that's where you come in and like actually give an injectable or like a Jackson one, go Jackson one.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah, that is where I come in for the other stuff too. Come see me in New York for your cosmetic consultation.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

But they said you're negative.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:24

This sweet face, this angel darling. He is. My sleep paralysis demon is Angelo in the corner just being like, I'm a dermatologist. And then I come and see this and I'm like, okay, it's not the same person.

unknown 7:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:43

Sleep paralysis Angelo is not real. So we're here today with two new sets of Heavenly Thoughties. Today's episode's guests are Jane Sweet and Alex Padgett's. Both are fellow cosmetic chemists, and we brought them on because they have a really rich history of manufacturing, formulation, and development. And we're here to spill the tea. Hey.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Do you still want to have that clip in your hair? I was about to just grant.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

That would have been funny. I didn't even see it. I think it blended right in.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Are we on camera?

SPEAKER_04 8:15

Yes, we are.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Welcome to Divine Skin Intervention.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Thank you so much for having us. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

So we decided to bring you guys on because we did an episode talking about a lot of claims around medical grade, clinical grade. And I know you two specifically have done a lot of stuff with these brands that claim that. You have developed or formulated a lot of the industry's most famous, notorious skincare products. So we want you guys to really spill the tea.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Oh, I I have tons of beef with the whole medical grade. It just doesn't mean anything. If there were, I worked at a manufacturer that, you know, we were making medical grade stuff and drugstore brands. Um, there's not a different area that we pull raw materials from to make it medical grade. There's no more, like it's not more pure ingredients or anything. There's not a standard that you have to test it. A lot of medical grade brands do do a lot of clinical testing, but there's also a lot of brands that don't claim to be medical grade that also can do clinical testing. Your brands. Yeah, like my brand, EducateMS, yeah. Um I just think that when people are calling things medical grade, it's I will say when I worked at the contract manufacturer that I worked at, and this might just be the experience I had there, but I also worked at L'Oreal for about a year. I could see the cost analysis of the formulas, and the medical grade formulas were not across the board more expensive than drugstore or indie brands by any means. I actually found that the indie brands usually had the more expensive products because they had more to prove. I didn't work on that, but you know about it. I was there. Yes, I do know quite a bit about that one. I think what drives me nuts about that product that we're talking about, or just in general with medical grade brands, they're not actually using the innovative ingredients because and they're still selling the products for very expensive because they're able to go off of reputation and the whole medical grade thing. And people are just automatically assuming, oh, this has got to be better. I've fell victim to that when I worked at L'Oreal. I would spend my little stipend check at the company store with the discount on stuff, and then I start realizing like this isn't really doing it for me. And I would go look at the formulas and I'm like, why are we selling this for almost $200 compared to the other stuff that you guys have? I don't know, drives me nuts.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

And really when it comes to actually manufacturing the like product itself, what is the cost of the good, the formulation itself? In general sense. We're not looking usually at more at what than what?

SPEAKER_00 10:48

10 years ago that I was there and things change a lot. Yeah, tariffs. I would say tariffs. Yeah. Wasn't more than three dollars.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Well, yeah, and just uh for the audience, for those of you not in the industry, keep in mind it's like there are economies of scale. So to say, oh, you know, this potentially $200 product would cost them $3 to make, it's probably because they're making millions of them at a time. Well, not three out at a time, but like per year versus like an indie brand, it's not gonna be uh the same cost.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah, and they're not getting that was it was tough for us when we started our brand because like we were not able to capitalize on the the minimum order quantities and stuff, you know. So, like one product, like for Golden Hour, one of the ingredients in it that we really wanted to use, which is in there, is what the antioxidant, the brightening antioxidant, that you have to buy like 20 kilos of. And we only needed like two. So then it just sits at the manufacturer and you know, possibly expires. But that contributes to the cost of our units because we're not producing as much. But obviously, like as the brand gets bigger, um, you can start to get some price breaks. And so that's you know, I've been seeing that some with also like I have been noticing like bigger brands like BloomFX and Doo also just recently lowered their prices. And um, somebody was like, Oh, that that means they were ripping people off before. I'm like, no, they're maybe just getting larger volumes. I mean, do just went into Sephora, BloomFX is in Alta, you know, they're having to produce a lot more, they're probably getting price breaks. I think it's really cool sometimes that we can see that they're translating that to the consumer.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Yeah, I think we need to kind of applaud brands when they're decreasing their prices. Because it's so rare.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Once you see that you can sell a product at that price level, a lot of brands just don't want to go back, right? Because they're making that money and it's so hard to take that price cut.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

But yeah, I applaud you for doing that, Boom Effects. I think it's really cool to see, you know, just making things more accessible. But I think there's a conception, or like we've we've talked about this with educated masks too, and it's like people might then think, oh, they've just been ripping us off this whole time, which is, you know, I I wish people would stop criticizing when brands are actually doing something good for the for the consumers. But I've seen good feedback from Bloom Effects and Du's.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

Well, everyone thinks it's like, oh, big skincare's out to get us. But to your point about earlier, right now you're indie, you're direct-to-consumer, right? Yeah. So your MOQ requirement is so low. But once you get into, I know Bloom Effects when they launched at Ulta, that was what, 750 stores? Yeah. You have to manufacture then a much, much higher quantity. So then it comes back to again, the economy is a scale. But yeah, also the fact that the tariffs went up, brands had to take that on almost immediately. And now we're seeing a little bit of a relief from that.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

So Yeah, that was a nightmare.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Why is it bad to pay less?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, literally. Wait, I want to talk a little bit more about the medical grade side. Yes, I want to hear work at a very popular, I feel like one of the OG medical grade skincare brands. And I'm actually curious about your take on this because in my opinion, a lot of medical grade skincare brands have very similar textures across the board on all their products. And the reason why is because at least when I was there, we would take the same chassis and make different things using that same chassis because it performed well in clinicals. So you're not getting the fun textures, you're not chasing trends, you're getting like the same base formula just with different actives in it. And I think that, you know, and we're not pulling different actives from other suppliers that you can't access as a smaller channel.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Because you were where you were, y'all were doing something that was there there was a proprietary ingredient, right? Yes. Okay. So it that makes sense to me. Like if you have a base that works, like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Exactly. And like if it performed in clinicals, why would he change it? Because that's the most expensive part and you don't want to fail these clinicals. Um, so what happened was we were just launching all these products that have the same base and it just got so boring.

unknown 14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

And I don't know if you see that as a dermatologist. Like all these brands are coming out with like similar-feeling stuff.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

I mean, yeah, in a way, I think uh the customer though for that type of product is looking more for results than they are looking for experience. Yeah. And maybe, I don't know, that's where I see a difference kind of between, you know, medical grade skincare and like luxury skincare.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

In both arenas, you're getting like a more expensive product, but for medical grade, it's like you want the clinicals, you want to feel like you're gonna get the result. And in a way, people want it to feel medicinal. So if it's not, you know, the most luxurious formula, it's like if we think about, you know, the elephant in the room that we've been talking about, the hot dog water, which I love.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

$188 hot dog water.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Well, which I love. It's like one of my favorite products ever, but it smells weird and it's just like watery. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, but at the same time, what are you paying for? Yeah, the development of it, the clinicals that they did, the exclusivity for a time when they had a patent uh versus you know, something that's luxury. It's like if they don't have the clinical results, they better be delivering on the user experience.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

And with that too, I understand, like it's funny because like, yeah, that there was so much research and development that went into this. There was a patent back in the 90s, but like with any other any other industry that sees innovation and development, like cars or phones or anything like that, you don't still pay today what you were paying back in the 90s for the technology that was so new and innovative then. Like the price goes down, you know? And so it is irritating for me. I think that's my biggest beef. It's just like the the price could be significantly lower if you guys weren't trying to rob people.

SPEAKER_04 16:21

For me, is when that formula came out, it was at a time when, like, for example, big screen TVs were literally massive bricks. They were huge, and they also are like really fat. And in the time that that patent expired, TVs are a lot more slim. Your phone is now your base. You have a TV in basically in your pocket. And it's like we've innovated so much in the cosmetic space that like comparable efficacy and performance can be achieved at a much, much, much smaller price point.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah, this actually used to, I was gonna say this actually used to drive me nuts when I was formulating for other brands because I would show them like, well, the suppliers come to us and they, you know, pitch us the ingredients and they're like, oh, this would be cool for a project if you if you want to do this, this, this. And I would see some really, really cool innovative stuff with good delivery systems, and I'd pitch it to the brand, and they're like, I'm sorry, this targeted peptide delivery system that costs you $4,000 for a kilo of versus this $300 peptide that costs you, or you know, this peptide that costs you $300 a kilo, the customer is gonna look at the back of the label and see peptide, they're not gonna know the difference. They don't, they can't define why this one is so much better. And then from the brand to be able to explain, oh, it's a targeted delivery system that actually directly drops off the peptide at the fiber blast and boosts hyaluronic acid. That's a drug claim. So it's really difficult for brands to be able to effectively explain why something is better than what's already been going on since the 90s. And I I don't, you know, I can't like fault them. Like there's a reason that we're still seeing the same basic ingredients coming through on these big launches, but you can't fault them. But it's like that was a big thing that we wanted to do at EducateMess was be able to set up a platform that were able to actually explain things using analogies and um to introduce these innovative ingredients that a lot of brands were passing on.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

That's such a good point. Because when I was at the show in New York Suppliers Day, I saw a lot of basically the same ingredients but marketed different ways, and they're marketed in a way that sounds like a drug claim, and you could never tell the consumer, so why would I pay more for that ingredient when I can just use another ingredient with the same inky name? So it's it's hard as a brand. You have to like figure out what where you want to spend your dollars basically and how you're gonna relate that to the consumer.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Absolutely. It's tricky for me because my ego wants to be like, I want everything that is so good in here, like this has to be the best product ever, and then we get the cost back from our manufacturer, and she's like, So you'll have to charge a thousand dollars if you want to make a dollar. So we have to like dial it back a lot from there.

SPEAKER_04 18:36

But now for me, some of those claims get really crazy too, because when we buy the ingredients from the suppliers, suppliers don't have to abide by drug versus cosmetic claims. So they'll throw the wildest thing out there. For me, it's always the protects you from 5G.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

I was about to mention that. Oh my god, there was a do y'all remember that back I did an ad for the for a sunscreen for Nuturium and it was the UV reflect. And I start getting comments that are like tinfoil hat, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And I go and look. So this is an instance of when a supplier has made egregious claims on their data sheet. The brands don't have any say in what the supplier is doing with their data sheets. And they will say, I mean, it's like the volupilline that I think you guys were talking about, where you look on the data sheet and it's like fully plumps your breasts. And you're like 2% of like 2% volume difference in the thickness of their skin. That's not a big deal, you know? But it's interesting when you have a lot of brands that don't have a chemist on board, they'll look at these data sheets. And that's not what happened with notarium, by the way. That I'll I'll get back to that. But a lot of brands I've noticed will just kind of pull the information from the data sheet, and sometimes those are drug claims. Like, and if they don't have a chemist on the team to know, like, hey, we can't say that, it's kind of tricky. But what happened with noterium was the data sheet for one of the it was the antioxidant that they're using, the supplier had randomly put on there that it could help protect skin from 5G radiation. And people were trying to claim that noterium was behind that. And I'm like, no, baby, they just used an ingredient.

SPEAKER_04 20:00

That claim was nowhere on Ethereum's website. But people looked up because Nuterium was, they actually claimed a specific complex in their marketing. People looked at the complex and the supplier of that complex was making the claim specifically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah, it was the supplier, but it was just so funny. And I'm like, people can go find little bits of information. Like, there's enough information online for people to think they know what they're talking about sometimes. But like that was an example where I was like, do not come for this brand about something dumb as hell that a supplier put on their data sheet.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

A question about some of these supplier claims. When these are being pitched to you, are they usually based on like in vitro data? Is it human trials? Like when they're coming up with drops the peptoid peptide off at the fiber blast. They're dropping the peptides off at the fiber blast.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

That supplier that we get our peptides from does extremely extensive like in vitro, in vivo, ex vivo clinicals and stuff. But I usually won't pick an ingredient if I'm working on a project. I won't pick one if I only see the in vitro data. Like I need to see the in vivo as well.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

I feel I see I see a lot more ex vivo than anything. I'm sorry. It's in vitro, ex vivo, and then I feel like the big manufacturers will do uh in vivo testing as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

You guys did a lot of really cool, I imagine, where you work with like ex vivo, in vivo.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

A lot of ex vivo testing, which by the way, did you know they were taken from like uh uh like uh like yeah, tell me about the skin from here?

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Can we explain for the viewer like what those levels of data mean, like in vivo versus ex vivo versus in vivo?

SPEAKER_04 21:41

So ex vivo, which is what we see a lot more now because basically you don't need full human panels. You're getting excised or like excess skin that's been taken from like abdominal plasties, and you can test for things like penetration and what else?

SPEAKER_00 21:57

There's a lot of things you can test. I mean, like even like wrinkled smine lines and stuff like that. You're making sure that it's actually getting in because that's why I was saying with like in vitro, you can okay, so in vitro testing is basically you take like a petri dish of of cells and then you're putting the ingredient directly on it. It'll be a much lower concentration. But it can indicate like the reason that your ingredient is working a certain way. Like it can give a really good indication of like this biomarker is being upregulated or something like that, you know, but it's not always relevant because the ingredient is never going to be placed directly on the cell. It has to get through skin's barrier. And so that's why I do love the ex vivo and standard in vivo, but it's so expensive and like it's so expensive. We've you know ours were like 80 grand and it's like it's so I had so much anxiety during that whole time because I'm like if these come back bad like I'm not changing the form well I would change the formula you know but like luckily the clinicals have always come out good. But it's really difficult because you're like I hope this works. What if it doesn't? I worked at when I was working at L'Oreal I was designing a lot of their like um marketing what is it surveys for like different clinical testing and consumer testing for like makeup products and stuff. And sometimes it it's getting the result you want or the claim you want has a lot to do with how creatively you ask the question.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

I was just about to say you can really creatively manipulate these tests to get the results that you want and a lot of suppliers do that because they want to sell you the ingredient.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

And just to say probably like the best level of data is like actually doing like a clinical study with people. Double blind that good sample size that gives you you know the most real information um even beyond like the ex vivo test with you know by the way if you get a tummy tuck that's where your skin may be going but um I would also say and correct me if I'm wrong the the real like clinical testing on people is the most expensive. Oh god yeah yes so that's why brands may not be doing that as much they may just not have the budget.

SPEAKER_04 23:55

Yeah but it's one thing for us to like we'll see the raw material we'll see the studies and the efficacy for the raw material by itself can be very different when it's in a finalized formulation with more actives and that could go both good and bad.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

So that is actually it's interesting because you know brands sometimes I'll see this goes back to like brands just pulling information off of a data sheet and I think they I mean it's it's technically illegal but sometimes brands will just pull the claims from that and be like oh we're using Matrixel so you could expect a 27% increase or improvement in the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles and I'm like it wasn't that was Matrixel at 3% in their study that they did in that formula that's not what yours is doing.

SPEAKER_04 24:34

And the vehicle affects performance whether it's a water based serum versus an emulsion versus anhydrous like these things matter and if it's not if the product itself is not in the same format as the raw materials testing was done it's going to be a very different effect and impact.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Wait I have a question for you guys how valuable do you think clinical data is nowadays for brands? I think you have to have it.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Very well depending on the price point I feel like if you're under $30 or so most people just like buy it but like if it's a serum, a moisturizer a cleanser or something like that and this is how I interpret it but I feel like yeah $30 and under you can kind of just like impulse by or like you don't really have to care so much. But when you're asking people to pay like $50 60 $70 I think they really want to see well why can't why is this going to be better than right you know the other and do you think consumers can differentiate between like in vivo testing versus a self-perception test.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

No and that's where the brands really get you and only certain brands really specify and even on like for example going on Sephora's website it's in the fine print but you'll notice it in the wording like 98% of people said they felt their skin look smoother versus instrumental data showed a 33% increase in hydration. Those are different test results.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Those are very different claims did you guys see somebody did a video actually ripping on my brand about the clinicals that we did for our peptides here and for freeze frame. And so this is this is kind of interesting. So we got a lot of clinical testing done the photos were incredible the instrumentals were great but I had just sent like basically the report to the marketing people and it was like okay here's the things that we can say whatever. I didn't I mean I didn't realize we it wasn't that I didn't realize but it was just like didn't think much of it. We had only really pulled out the perception test because the numbers were higher. So when the marketing people are looking at it they're like 37% increase in elasticity versus 98% of people saw improvement in elasticity, you know? So somebody did a video talking about our perception studies, how they're kind of bullshit. And I was like wait we did actually do instrumentals and we have like all of the really great photos like I didn't realize how poorly we were reflecting our clinicals honestly. But it's interesting because we didn't really no one really said anything about it until like I did the video.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

I mean to your point though it's like because those numbers are bigger it seems like a bigger impact but then we see like the oh 33% improvement instrumentally in wrinkle reduction. I'm like that's a really good result to a consumer they see a lower number and they're like that doesn't seem like it's doing a lot.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Yeah and so like I'm always battling like the science or like versus like marketing it's it's very difficult to like find that fine line where I'm like I didn't I would have thought putting the elasticity claim right next to the perception claim would have made people be like oh that's really not that good. But on the opposite it is way better to just like put all of it out there.

SPEAKER_04 27:16

What kills me is someone dragging the brand and saying that when you literally had the before and after photos provided as well. I'm like how are you gonna say the photos are fake?

SPEAKER_00 27:22

That was my point.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

That's not Dr. Malaxon those photos are fake.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

You know I've there's a supplier who I have caught them photoshopping their clinicals like and actually one time I was because I'm kind of a mad scientist with this stuff when I'm planning a project or like I'm working on something I will go compare every single data sheet for every ingredient that could possibly work for this before I'm picking them out. And there was an ingredient from them that was like from the 90s that I really liked. They had really really good clinical photos around the eye but it was interesting because then the next week the supplier came and pitched me a different active that they had just launched with the identical it was the same exact photos. And I called the rep and I was like I think they put the wrong photos on here these are ones from and this is for she was like oh yeah I'll just I'll have to tell you about that later but I don't yeah I don't nothing ever nothing ever came of that and I'm like y'all are just I so I there are certain suppliers what's interesting there are certain suppliers I don't really trust they send data sheets that's over it's overinflated it's exaggeration it's really shady there are certain suppliers that I just like I have worked for a supplier where I've heard them say let's let's tweak the results a little bit so it looks better.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

I believe it that makes me so mad.

SPEAKER_04 28:34

But um going back to like wild claims you have one of my favorite stories when you were at L'Oreal about something being sex proof and how do you how do you test that? How do you test for that?

SPEAKER_00 28:44

That was so funny so um L'Oreal owns their and I remember they wanted to call a mascara sex proof but I was like yeah that's great but we were literally talking like in the department like how do we actually design a study for this? Like do we have to take derang face on the pillow fluids on your face like what like what kinds of things? There's so many yeah there's so many different things that like wait was this for better than sex mascara? It was it was one but I don't know what they ended up calling it. I don't know what they ended up calling it oh my god they have a really good um new like they they have a tubing mascara called tube job oh I saw that oh that was cute I love their name so what what did they do to test for the sex proof they didn't they didn't but I can't remember exactly but it was just like a funny it was one of those things that it was like a funny conversation we were having because they were like yeah they want to call it sex proof and I'm like why is that bad they're like how do you how do you test that you're like I'll test it I'll be a volunteer based on a study of one it stayed on Alex I know you have a very colorful manufacturing history one of my favorite stories I started doing COVID yes so the year was 2020 we were one month into lockdown April so my boss comes in and he's like he's like in his late 60s and he did not know the company he was talking about and he was like we were we were able to stay open because we were just like sling in hand sanitizer left and right you know and so he comes in and he's like we just got one of the biggest orders we've ever had like like monetarily like but we used to make very high end skincare there. So like I'm expecting like a small batch for this amount of money but it's like oh no this is a huge batch we're gonna be doing like a lot for them and it's a really cheap formula. And so I'm sitting there I'm like what is it though? Like like it's not hand sanitizer and he's like it's some kind of lubricant that goes with a device but it's like it is going to be like medical what's the word it's not medical grade but a device. Yeah yeah yeah it's a medical device so the regulations on that are a little different which is completely different than medical grade skincare by the way but anyway so I'm like what is it? And he's he shows me it was flesh light. So basically one month into COVID, Fleshlight's manufacturer could not keep up with the demand of their new lube and I guess they wouldn't sell him the formula so I had to reverse engineer them and we started manufacturing it there and I did check to see I didn't have an NDA. But weren't you saying he was like trying to look it up the brand but he's like the website's not popping up he's like well I was trying to look up the website and I'm like that's not going to show up on the side computer.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

So I was explaining to him I'm like yeah it's just like a it's a thing they model it they've got some model after porn stars you stick your thing in there and he was like trying to explain it he was like could you imagine him computer show me flashlight computer you know who it was it was the Gooners that kept them in business COVID come on one month into it was literally one month into into lockdown.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

I was bored can you blame them?

SPEAKER_02 31:37

I was bored we just wanted something to feel good about exactly you know what I don't blame them everybody was lonely everyone and you know what is safer than going out not social distancing so that and it is safe sex.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

And exchanging bodily fluids especially safe because I formulated the lube for it. Were they flavored? Um no there was no flavor so one of them had a cooling ingredient in it and then one of them was just like regular water. We had to do the the cleaner like an antibacterial cleaner for the device and then there was a warming one but I had a really bad experience in my day with like the warming stuff like the KY you know what I'm talking about the hot and fire and ice and I'm like we're not putting vanil butyl ether or like any of the typical like tingly ingredients. So actually what we did with that one was with glycerin if you go above like 50% it has a natural warming to it. So I think we just did like a lot of glycerin and kept it that's so creative. Yeah kept it less spicy but yeah really tasty I have also worked on lube.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Oh my god tell me we're both lube queens I know maybe this is a universal contract manufacturer experience but I worked on flavored lubes for a little bit flavors and I just remember sitting in the lab and having to taste all of them and rank just so gross the things that you do at a contract manufacturer.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

One of my professors in grad school worked at PlayTex and they had like the the tampons that are like odor eliminating but in order to prove that you eliminate the odor they had a big vat of malodor that they had to make like a synthetic basically supposed to smell like period blood and one day it spilled in the lab and it they all had to evacuate because it was like very bad smell. I never remember if that story like I'm like when he was telling that he was like yeah like we all had to leave it was like it was the grossest thing and I'm like are you exaggerating because I feel like I would have heard about this but yeah I also Chrissy my old boss she was um she worked at an industrial like she was doing like household industrial cleaners and stuff and so she was working on a carpet cleaner and so in order to test for that she was having to go to the butcher and collect blood she was collecting pea well actually she made she made pee she made it she no no no she made throw up with glycolic acid and cat food and then she would go get blood and then she would collect dog poop and like blend it in a smoothie and driple that out and that was how they were testing whether or not the carpet cleaner would work isn't that crazy I'm I'm sorry you had to do that Chrissy sorry Chrissy the glamorous side of formulation speaking of formulation having your industry insider behind the scenes perspective I have a couple questions for you guys that I will also chime in on um first one is having because you guys are multi-category you do hair you do skin you do body all these things what are you seeing as like some of the big shortcomings right now in the industry in terms of like launches brand direction etc I'll let Jane go first.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Yeah I I was saying this earlier but I think right now we have a really big problem in our industry. We want innovation and we want speed and those two things don't come together. And so right now we're seeing a lot of the same launches over and over again because everyone's going for speed and it's getting boring to be honest. I feel like I'm seeing the same things just every day on my social media every brand's launching the same thing in Sephora. And then like when you do a video about it people are always like well we'll compare it to this one compare it to this one and I'm like it doesn't have to be one or the other sometimes like different people can like different things and and they can all work for yeah but I feel like there's also this want for innovation but I feel like it's not on the brand really to focus on innovation and not work fast because the consumers are wanting things fast and they're not do you know what I mean like I feel like consumers want speed but they also want innovation but they're not willing to wait for the innovation because they want things faster.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

And then like there you might have issues with like package compatibility and stuff. When we were at Lux Pack, Leah, you and I were talking about this because there were some cool that that was just like more even about like innovation on sustainability and packaging and all of that rather than what we were doing at Suppliers Day with raw materials. But there was the innovations we were seeing were like not solving an actual problem. Like they would be just extra plastic for like this to look cool and it like give you a cool way to you know close the bottle or something and it's like why are we like creating it it's just like complicated. And almost every vendor I went to at LuxPack when they would go to show me their prototypes of like their most interesting thing it was broken. And I'm like literally like four different ones I have it on video and I'm like why would I ever buy or commit to using this when you can't even get the prototype right?

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Yeah yeah I mean I think uh to your point Jane like maybe on the marketing side too one thing that I've noticed is that there are a lot of brands that just churn through new launches all the time and then are discontinuing stuff on the back end because it's newness that gets people to spend.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

I was just gonna say yeah to stay relevant in this industry now you have to launch something every single month. So we're seeing just so many launches because brands need that revenue because they're making more money by launching new things. But how do we get innovation is my question, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:00

Because the thing is at that point they're launching so much and also they're looking at what everyone else is doing that you get just a lot of redundancy. So then to Alex's point people are like well these two brands launched basically the same product compare them.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Well yeah I think beyond to innovation a lot of brands aren't trying to make like their forever hero skews anymore like some of these I don't know I'm thinking about the hot dog water the um the night repair legacy iconic products and we don't have those anymore from brands really so it's like why is that is it because this whole marketing machine has has trained the consumer to only want new things I I wonder about that because you know even when somebody loves our vitamin C it's the best vitamin C ever obviously there's gonna be so many new vitamin C launches.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

So like always constantly and they're always gonna be distracted or like oh maybe I'll try that one and we always hope they come back to us of course but I could see how it doesn't necessarily make sense for a brand to put all their eggs in one basket on something like the Estee Lauder Advanced Night Repair because there's always going to be so many more launches that could compare to that. So it's almost like this is our hero, this is the what we're known for, people are gonna buy it but let's focus a little bit on the other products. I don't know kind of maybe that's why we're not seeing as many.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

I always say that the formula gets the consumer to come back but the beauty industry has turned into such a like you're buying status you're buying this FOMO. Like it's like they're trying to induce FOMO. Yeah like you're you're buying into this aesthetic almost like when you buy road you're like a clean girl or whatever right or when you buy Medicube you really like K beauty like you're buying into a world versus the formulas and the formulas are what gets you to stay but right now the beauty industry has become so marketing driven and less science.

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Well it's for the sake of how does it translate to social media how do we have the next viral hit right on social media so like Medicube they have the moisturizer with the capsules in it and that looks good on camera and you have the influencers with the dots all over their face.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

I didn't even realize when we started we launched EducateMess at the end of 2021 I didn't know that skincare community was a thing on TikTok or like Instagram like literally we I started posting online about nine months after we launched I was just I the marketing side is not something that like comes naturally to me at all. And um so I'm like oh I'm gonna give these formulas out and people are gonna try them and love them. It's gonna be the best ever and we're gonna be great. Obviously it does not work that way. So then my business partner would be like could you start posting like stuff about skincare online and I'm like no one's gonna care what I have to say like who like what am I gonna talk about glycerin twice? And then my brother actually does social media for like sports companies and he was like Alex just text yourself a question and use it as a green screen behind your head and make a video about something.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

Don't give away that secret don't give away that secret question.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Or go find, go, go screenshot like a news headline that like relates to your thing and like people will start asking you the questions and then that just does your content for you and that's you know really what happened. But now I'm seeing like the way that I thought things were like like the way like Sephora and Ulta stuff kind of goes with the brands it's just changed so much from the time that we launched until now.

SPEAKER_04 40:04

And most of that I say is the way social media is and the communities within it like the subcommunities and like for me it's like yeah you have like the TikTok and Instagram communities but like the Reddit community runs deep.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Oh yeah. You can always if you ever want to know the honest truth about something just go to Reddit.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

That's the thing is I don't even think it's like to that extent I feel like it's a very weirdly skewed perspective still to like the other end of things. I try not to it's like myself skincare extremism in my opinion. Skincare extremism it's like the Westboro Baptist Church of skincare on Reddit.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Well yeah I think also I was talking with somebody about this the other day but it's like people are creating problems for themselves. Like the whole like oh can I mix this active with this active or like when do I apply my sunscreen how long to wait for this to dry and uh what if I did this with that it's like literally it's all gonna get there.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

It's all gonna get where it needs to go. I still sunscreen last though people like certain creators they'll think oh I have this interesting topic I want to talk about and they'll make a video but then they don't realize that they're basically they're they're pulling they're very exaggerating or like you know twisting the truth a little bit that is then creating a rule that people now think I can't layer hyaluronic acid with vitamin C. And I'm like girl we I can you can formulate with both of them in the same formula.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

You can definitely layer those together you know I think everyone and every brand is just trying to find that viral moment and hitch onto it and it's exhausting.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

And it's creating these rules that don't even matter. Yeah I was it was barely even exists. I formulated products for like eight nine years and the first time I ever heard that peptides and vitamin C were not stable together was when I was on TikTok and I was talking about a product like the the peptides aren't stable because vitamin C is in there and like I've formulated plenty of products with these peptides and vitamin C. Like they're stable it's fine. Who told you that?

SPEAKER_04 41:47

What also makes it worse though is people who have no science literacy finding a study and then running with that today's video that I saw was it was lab muffin stitching it. Some girl talking about oh I don't use self-tanner now because self-tanner uh creates free radicals and that causes aging and Michelle was like so no not exactly if you actually understand the studies and look at the evidence what's like if you don't have the full science literacy to a understand one study but also B look at other studies and further um enrich your understanding of the topic you shouldn't be making content about it.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

And this is another point with like the self-tanner thing because I I had seen some people ripping on self-tanners and it really got on my nerves because I'm somebody who likes being tan. I used to I used to tan and before I realized you know before I realized how bad it was you know I was somebody that went to the tanning bed. That's not good. Do not ever cancel her. Only a couple times but I I can be honest about that you know um but when people are using self-tanners sometimes you are capturing the audience that is doing that instead of going to the tanning bed. Like you actually are pulling people from the tanning bed. So I I personally hate when people are ripping on like self-tanners or acting like it's like you know bad thing I'm like people should be safe in the sun but there's always going to be a population that doesn't give a shit. And so if you're at least meeting them there, then that's better than nothing. You know so it's like even if it does cause free radicals okay it's a ton less free radicals than if you go to the tanning bed.

SPEAKER_04 43:09

Perspective next question considering we all do content we all try a shit ton of products what are you seeing as something that's really really innovative right now either product wise or just industry wide?

SPEAKER_00 43:21

I mean just that water and oil water emulsion.

SPEAKER_04 43:24

Alex For me it's continuum from experiment.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

I still am on the Bloom Effects biphase tonic. I remember when Kim was talking to me about it and the the concept was a milk and a water like it like a bi phase but it separates into having a milky phase and I was like good luck because to or in order to get like an emulsion that can selectively split like I you know I was I was thinking like are they gonna have to homogenize it and then just add the water phase in later. I don't remember what ingredient they ended up using but they're credo compliant too so like the one that I was originally like oh I think you might be able to do But with this one, it was a peg. And so she couldn't use it, you know? But I their their manufacturer and their formulator who who finally achieved what they did with that formula. It's so good. And it's just beautiful in the bottle.

SPEAKER_04 44:11

I mean, realistically, there's only like what two or three of those types of toners that exist right now. And hers is good. It's good.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

I think nowadays, for me, what excites me is just textures. Like I enjoy good texture.

SPEAKER_04 44:23

To your point, someone asked me, like, what do you think is like a really innovative ingredient right now? And I'm like, a really good, interesting emulsifier. Because so much of what you perceive as great spread, great skin feel, good dry-down overall sensory experience can be established with a good emulsifying system. So sometimes it's not even an active. It really is, to Jane's point, the texture, the user experience.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

It's funny because I'm somebody who prefers like light textures. Like I want my serums and all of my treatments to just be very like they don't pill, they're whatever, but those are more difficult to make. Like the Gat Faset has some really great emulsifiers that give some incredible textures, but I can never stabilize them when I'm doing them in like a Milky Serum or a toners type application. But they give the best, like rich, unique textures when you do them in like a thick cream. But I just don't like thick creams.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Yeah, yeah. I think um not to toot my own horn, talking about continuing, but like from conception to uh launch, I've worked with Experiment on that product, and they brought me in way early, like before the like formula was even conceptualized.

SPEAKER_04 45:31

For reference, how many years did it take you to develop that formula?

SPEAKER_02 45:34

More than four. More than four.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

I've I remember Lisa talking to me about it maybe two years ago, and she was so excited, but like they knew it was gonna be a long time. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

Yeah, I mean, I think they wanted to get a derm's perspective on.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Which is so important.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Which, you know, usually when you see something that's dermatologist approved, they get somebody to like sign off on some document at the therapy.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

I was literally talking to somebody about this. I was like, I could I have a friend that's a derm. I could just text her and be like, Do you like this? Technically, it's a dermatologist approved.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Yeah, if you have that in writing, then you're good.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

There have there are actually brands I've worked with that have put physician formulated on the bottle because like a physician works at the company, and I'm like, I am That makes no sense. I guess I forgot I got a MD.

SPEAKER_04 46:18

You guys remember Physician's Formula?

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Yeah, it's still out there.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Wait, okay, continue. I'm sorry I interrupted.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Oh, yeah. So um my involvement was like helping to pick the actives, they let me test the formulas as we went through, helping them to kind of design what we were looking for in the clinicals. And like I am so happy with how it was.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

It was such a smart formulation. I love the obviously the salicylic acid, but combining it with the PAD is like I'm somebody who has really bad acne, and so I can really appreciate it when I see a formula that is not just preventative but also can help you.

SPEAKER_04 46:50

It's really comprehensive. It's comprehensive. People forget a lot of these skin conditions are very multifaceted. So to really fully address it.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

And like a lot of my acne has left me with tons of acne scarring. And so the the brightening ingredients that you guys use, because it's also gluc is gluconylactin in there too. Yep. And the and the potassium azoloyl diglycinate, those two together can really help addressing some of that surface um well, first of all, the texture, of course, but some of that pigmentation that comes from from acne. And so I think it was like really cool that they went that route with it.

SPEAKER_04 47:21

I agree. I like this direction of first of all, experiments obviously chemist founded, but also choosing someone like Angelo and going back to one of Jane's earlier points of getting actual scientists and chemists in the development room because we really know the raw materials, we can really lead innovation. I think yeah, you did a really good job with that part.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Thank you. Yeah, and actually, yeah, the collaborative part of it where it was like me and Emmy, who's one of the founders and a chemist, were like constantly going back and forth about like what we should like try to get out of the formula and also her focus on like making the actual user experience of using it pleasant too, and making sure that everything was stable. So it's like having the minds in the room together really, I think, uh, gave us the result that we got, which the clinicals are and it's it's so different when you see a brand like Experiment or you know, like Educative Mess or some of these chemist-founded brands.

SPEAKER_04 48:17

Having professionals actually on the ground looking at what's new and what's innovative. I always say this one of the most innovative brands is Denessa Myrix in my mind because Denessa is at every show. She's looking at what's new, what's interesting. She is boots on the ground, boots the house.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

But also bringing the vibes up in the entire room. She's just such a sunshine.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Yeah, she's really nice.

SPEAKER_04 48:36

Right. So anyone, all of us have met her, anyone who meets her, it like literally just brightens your entire day. She's genuinely so, so, so, so sweet. Danessa, we love you. Love you.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

There's a couple of brands I've worked with where when I was at my first contract manufacturer, some of the brands you could tell that they had looked at the ingredients and they like came through knowing what they wanted to achieve, and versus like, which I'm seeing a lot more of this, like or male-owned brands that are popping up that are seeing that the beauty industry is very lucrative and they're like, oh, I can just put a hyaluronic acid serum. Yeah, women buy that. Yeah, I'll do that.

SPEAKER_04 49:06

It's always a man.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Um it's always a man. But um, we're not included. It's definitely different when you're working with somebody who is either a chemist or you know has such a passion for the ingredients. Because like for me, I'm seeing like if I'm thinking of a target that I'm or a claim that I'm trying to target, I'm not just thinking of, okay, this one ingredient will do it. I'm like, ooh, I can approach it from this angle and then this angle, and ooh, what about this that can go in with it? And you're not just copying what's already on the market, you're literally just making um, you know, art, art, in my opinion, is how it is. You know, like you're making art with the ingredients you have. Um, and you can get a little different with it. I think that's what's so fun about the chemist-founded brands, like um experiment, like educative mess. You know, you get a little more uniqueness.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Exactly. I was gonna say earlier, I feel like there's some unspoken beef online between chemists and germs sometimes, and I hate that.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yeah, I hate Angelo so much.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Oh. Not between us.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

I was gonna say, like, when you put them two in the same room, you can create magic.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Yeah, like if you were to ask me how to solve rosacea or eczema, I don't know shit about that kind of stuff. Like, I know how to put the ingredients together to make a stable formula, but I do notice that there is it's it's interesting. It's not I wouldn't say I I wouldn't say I've got beef with anyone, but sometimes it is funny when you see like a certain product or like it's kind of just like a basic formula like a s and you've got a lot of germs promoting it, and you're like, okay, yeah, you're a you're a derm, you you know everything, like you know, but they don't necessarily know what different delivery systems can be available to give different results. So that's it's it's not that the beef is with derms, it's the beef with the fact that people see the white coat and automatically just believe everything and automatically go bye without knowing the nuance behind it. Or it's not the derms. Or area of knowledge. It's not the derms folks. Yeah, like the symptoms of it.

SPEAKER_04 51:00

And as Angelo would know all about rosacea formulation-wise, he wouldn't be able to whip up a serum right away, but he knows good ingredients and actives that would be beneficial for someone with rosacea.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Yeah, there it is kind of that Venn diagram of going from the lab to like the end user, and it's like y'all really know the lab and how to make the formula and make sure that it's efficacious. And then we, on the other hand, know more the the patient experience with suffering from these conditions and how they're gonna use the product. So uh you need everyone.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

I think, yeah, I know. I think it's so funny because you're you're right, there has been like people always think that the chemists and derms hate each other. Right.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

There was an era, and I think part of it was because, especially early on in the skincare social media space, there was a very very big like conservative push from the derms where they're like, no, your products should be really un unsexy, unfun, uncool. And the chemists were like, as people who have to deal with the brands, and the brands do what the consumers want, most consumers want those things. They want the products to smell good and feel good. And what's funny is I think I got along with Angelo so well early on, is because I'm like, you don't take this too serious.

SPEAKER_02 52:11

No, yeah, I think the the best type of skincare is always gonna be what people actually want to use and stick to. Compliance. Compliance. And yeah, I think obviously some of the trend-based stuff that's out there was not beneficial, like having a 15-step routine or trying out new stuff every week or whatever the case may be. But I think a lot of the tune of a lot of derms has changed, especially because they've seen that getting off of that messaging of like use the most bland, boring stuff. Hot dog water.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

I saw the line at A D for Glow Recipe.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Exactly. Well, okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Because their new launches don't have anything about fruit on them, I noticed. Like the PDR, and it has watermelon, but they they're not they're they're they're calling out the the active and not the fruit. Oh, interesting. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

But yeah, what I will say is um part of DRMs love glow recipe. Derms love glow recipe, but I think part of the shift overall removing this from glow recipe is like uh clout and brand deals will change people's tune.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

And also I think uh back in the day, it's like all we had access to freely that was given to us for free, was the more boring conglomerate stuff. Versus to your point about smaller or indie brands now being at the AD annual meeting, which is like the biggest derm meeting every year. Like perceptions are changing, and I think the way that industry interacts with derms is different too.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

So definitely people are doing way too much sometimes with their skincare routines. I mean, just like constantly trying new products and you know not staying in one specific routine. And so to the point of Derm saying, like, go back to the basics sometimes, I think that's a good place to start. Like if you are wrecking your barrier because you're trying all these new products, like get a Vanna Cream moisturizer, get a you know, the Neutrogena sunscreen, and let's just start there and see what else we can add to it, you know, from there. But I I personally like playing around and having fun.

SPEAKER_04 54:16

I like a complicated.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

I frequently give myself skin problems though.

SPEAKER_04 54:20

Uh don't do what Alex does.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Do as I say, not as I do.

SPEAKER_04 54:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

I slept in makeup last night. I'm just kidding. I didn't. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_02 54:27

The educated mess.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

She is really living up to her brand name. You are educated mess.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Like she's the smartest woman I know. Thank you. When Catherine told me the name, y'all, it was so funny because Catherine and I had started planning to start our brand, and we couldn't, we had not come up with the name yet. And I was at her house and she said something about educated mess. I thought she was talking about another brand that had launched. And I was like, wait, that's so fucking stupid. Like, I don't know, I don't even want to start a brand now because I just want to go work for them. I love that name. That's like so cute. And then she, like, maybe five minutes later, she looks at me, she's like, wait, no, no, no. Like, that's the name I came up with for our brand. I was like, wait, I thought you were saying someone else did it. So we got so excited, and um that was yeah, we launched after that.

SPEAKER_04 55:09

So it's cute. Jane, question for you. And this can be like a very concise answer. When it comes to product development, people just see the final product, the end good, the final good. Um, as someone who's seen the process from start to finish time and time and time again, can you give a brief explanation as to what it really looks like the full process from idea conception to final good?

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Yeah, I feel like people have this connotation that product development is just evaluating formulas all day. Like we sit in the I sit at home or in the lab and we just test formulas, but really product development in my mind is a lot of risk assessment and knowing when you can or can't take shortcuts or when where you can save costs, where to balance certain claims, or like develop designing claims, testing. I think product development is a little bit more artistic than obviously being in the lab all day.

SPEAKER_04 55:54

Let's say I come to you and I'm like, Jane, I want to launch this product. You take that first initial thought, and how does that actually develop, grow, and then go from okay, let's develop the formula, let's get the final iteration, packaging, all that.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

Oh gosh, how much time do you have?

SPEAKER_04 56:09

Walk me through. 30 seconds, go.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Oh, okay. So if you come to me with an idea, what I'm gonna do first is I'm gonna look at the market and see what's out there because I want to understand what are we going up against or like what is out there already that we can innovate or like make better. And then from there, I'm gonna go to the lab, my lab, or a contract manufacturer, and we're gonna ideate what actives can we pull, um, what emulsifiers or what textures can we use. Um, and then from there we're gonna get iterations, right? We're gonna get lab samples from the lab samples. Um, and then we go, you know, if we want to prove one of them, then we go into stability, compatibility, and then something that's really important is doing a pilot badge because you want to know how it's gonna scale up, because a lot of times things that work in the lab don't scale up in manufacturing. And so designing a formula that sets you up for success is really important. From there, doing a pilot, doing a line trial, and then we can go into production. But obviously, there's a lot of other stuff that goes into play. Um, that would that's like kind of the full, the full turnkey experience.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

One of my favorite projects I ever worked on, just because it was funny to me, I was working on a hair conditioner for a big brand, and maybe a year later, another customer came and asked me to reverse engineer that conditioner. And I was like, I actually did that formula, and obviously you make it a little bit different. Um, but I thought that was that was like one of the funniest moments in my career.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

I was like, It's a big compliment.

SPEAKER_04 57:30

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

I was like, Yeah, oh yeah, you want this one because it's perfect, right?

SPEAKER_04 57:33

You're like, I don't know if I can do that.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

I don't know. This is so elite. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

But also when you are a product developer and you are going to contract manufacturers, I think selecting your contract manufacturer is a big part of the process as well because you want to find someone that will partner with you and grow with you. And uh I don't know, you know, selecting a contract manufacturer is a huge deal.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

It's really funny because the first one I worked at was very large, and so there had been like always usually like four or five chemists. But I don't tell me if you agree with this. But I feel like sometimes a lot of times you can almost see a chemist's footprint on a label or like on the product. Like one of the senior formulators that I worked with, he was really, really good at like robust emulsions, and like my stuff is always like very lightweight because that's just my preference. But um, a lot of the private label formulas there were completely like are so completely different than the private label formulas at the next place I worked. And it's interesting to see like the capabilities they would have just because of the chemist and whether they were willing to talk to you and like really hear what you're saying, and you know, but then you also have customers that come in with like a really good idea of what they want, or they'll you know, give you the benchmark and they're like, I just want it to feel just like this. And I like it when they're decisive about that kind of stuff because then it's a little easier.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Yeah, but I think one advantage of being a product developer with a chemist's background is you are able to be very precise with feedback. Um, when we talk to labs, instead of saying, like, oh, I want this to be richer or thicker or want it to spread better, we give exact directions, add one percent of this, add half a percent of this, let's change this emulsifier, let's you know, change this around. So I think that really, really helps in the process.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

So funny story, and we might have to bleep out the name, but again, I don't have an NDA, but it's just so I developed products for Gwen's language. Fun stuff. Uh begrudgingly. No. Um there's like so most of our customers when we were working, like we would have like maybe two to three redirects where we're going back and forth before we get the right texture and the right whatever they want. And I remember one time we had maybe gone on like 17 with her, and so we just we started sending old versions and it was perfect, and she loved it. So I think like version three ended up being version three was technically or version 18 was like technically version three. That kind of that kind of vibe. Got it.

SPEAKER_04 59:40

And it was approved. She approved a version she didn't like prior. Ooh. And that happens. And this is getting to the next question, actually. A big pet peeve of mine recently is a lot of people are like, I'm a product developer, but I'm like, you don't actually have technical experience. You're going to a store or someplace and trying a concealer and being like, yep, you see how that conceals? That's a concealer. That does not a product developer make. You got no technical experience. You can't get up in a lab and tell me what a raw material does. You shouldn't have a say in this. And that leads me to my next question. What do you guys think is a big pet peeve of yours right now when it comes to like the industry or product launches?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

I'm still sick of seeing Matrixel launches, honestly. Like, I there's just so much better out there. Like, well, you know what? I don't care if the product has Matrixel and it's like 20 bucks.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

But I I love Matrixel, but okay. What? You just feel like it's not inventive?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

I think Yeah, no, I think the thing with Matrixel about well, Matrixel comes from a supplier I don't trust, first of all. But they were the ones I was talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

I don't know if we can say it. You might take that out.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

No, now we're really talking shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

I uh I think when Matrixel came out, that was probably one of the only ingredients that had done what it was doing in vitro with collagen boosting and stuff. The peptides that are available now in targeted delivery systems and different spring fraction or spring fragments and type of stuff, there's just a lot better options. And so again, this goes into what I was saying earlier about like this goes into what I was saying about like when I would work with brands and they're like, just use Matrixel, it's 300 bucks a kilo, and like that's not gonna contribute much to our formulation costs, whereas this one's gonna contribute a ton to it, and I don't even know how I can tell the customer why it's better. I think I'm just bored with it. That's a pet peeve because I'm bored.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:18

I mean, we kind of touched on it. I feel like having non-technical people in the product development room really gets me because I can tell like Medicube launched a hypochlorous acid spray with niacinamide and other stuff in it. And I'm like, that's how you know someone technical was not in the room.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:32

A few brands have done specifically that thing, and it's like I can tell no one with technical experience was in that development room, but also you were just trying to chase a hot trend and it didn't work out for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

Can you explain why for like the people that yeah, with hypochlorous acid, first of all, it's like really hard to manufacture, and I don't think a lot of manufacturers make it because I don't think they're actually doing it right.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

I didn't realize that until I talked to Chrissy.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

Oh it's it erodes tanks. It it's not it's really hard to make. Yeah. Point blank. And I've had a lot of people ask me, like, we're gonna make this or whatever. Um, anyways, not very many m not very many manufacturers do it. Um and because it's so unstable and it's so hard to work with, it doesn't like to agree with any other actives in the formula.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

That's just not the reason it's so good for like infections and stuff like that is because it it donates the free radicals from the that double oxygen bond when it's broken, but that will also destroy like actives that are sensitive, like niacinamide or salicylic or something like that. I didn't even realize that until I was talking to the person that developed the prequel hypochlorous acid, and you know, it was such a such a process that I didn't even realize like how difficult it would be to do a hypochlorous acid. And then it does make me skeptical about a lot of the other brands of hypochloric.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

It makes me so skeptical because there's Amazon brands, there's so many brands coming out with hypochlorous acid. And to be honest, the only one I really, really trust is prequel 28.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

Me too. I I trust Tower 28 and I trust prequel.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

You have uh yeah, hypochlorous acid's number one hater sitting right across from you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

Perfect. I didn't know that. Spill the tea.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:00

Okay, so um hypochlorous acid works. It does, but mostly as an anti-inflammatory. Type my name into PubMed. You're gonna find research on it. I've done it.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:13

She's published Mama's among my many other publications.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

But anyway. Um, but yeah, that's why we've really used it in dermatology for a long time. People also thought for um people with eczema, you're like cutting down on uh staphylococcus uh bacterial burden on the skin, but really it probably has its effect through being anti-inflammatory. However, people are saying, oh, put the spray on after you work out so you don't break out, or um, it's good for acne or for rosacea or whatever. It's like if you put on too much of it, it can be irritating too.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

And that could also be a good idea. I want to know your opinion on this because I go back and forth with hypochlorous acid and you know, like we're thinking about the microbiome, and like essentially hypochlorous acid would be killing off the good soldiers and the bad soldiers, not just the bad ones. Um and that could be disrupting to the microbiome. And you know, people use this as like a like when people talk about using hypochlorous acid, it's like seven times a day, like fresh out the shower. Like, I think people overdo it because they don't realize exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

Yeah, I really only think people should be using it under the supervision of a doctor personally, not just like trying it for whatever, um especially because of those microbiome concerns. Because usually when we're using it for people with eczema, we're not giving it to them in a spray. We're telling them to take a bleach bath, which is cheaper.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

I used to do bleach baths as a baby.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

I have eczema. Oh, okay. The thing that gets me is when people use it as setting spray, and I'm like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:47

Wait, first of all, there's actually no benefit, it's not a fixative or anything. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

People think just like using over makeup is gonna help, like, oh, real quick, let's oxidize the fuck out of our foundation.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

Oh, you can change the color of the pigments, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

Wait, that's the innovation we're looking for. A color changing foundation.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

With a bookless.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

You know what it reminds me of? The color changing cleanser from the brand.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

Oh, oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

Color changing cleanser?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

There was a brand that had a cleanser with like leaves in it, and they were, it was like very unstable. And and their marketing shifted once they realized it was, you know, unstable and like going bad, and they're like, Oh no, it's it's actually color changing. It gets better with time.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:27

Wrapping up the episode, I have two last questions. Speed round, just quick thought. Number one, what do you think is an untapped niche in the industry right now, still?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

Untapped niche. It always stumps people. Let me think.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

Take a note.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:40

Could I say pet care? Oh I feel like there's no innovation in the pet care industry or side of things. It's very unregulated. Um, pet care falls under, I think, a different category. It's not personal care. But when I use pet care products, they're terrible.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:55

Whey launched like puppy shampoo.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:57

That's true. That's the only one I've seen.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:59

And I saw this one. Week Gat Fose has a specific range of raw materials for pets.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

Wait, this is so interesting. A brand could literally do some really cool stuff with pet care and like make it um okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

A lot of pet care that I've seen, first of all, like they smell super strong because humans perceive clean pets as good smelling pets, but their noses are sensitive. So I hadn't thought about that. And then a lot of the pet care products that I use too, the shampoos are just so thin, they don't lather, they don't clean the dogs as well. So I feel like there's a lot of innovation to be done there, especially on paws. My friends are doing it, Carly and Britta. They own clean coats and they're on Chewy now, but they have developed some great pet products. Clean coats, you said? I don't have a dog, but I still want to try.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:42

Okay, so pet care, quick answer, untapped niche.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:46

I wouldn't say it's even untapped, but what I'm loving, like from you know, notarium and prequel both do this with the I love the cleansers that you can use both face and body because I'm lazy. And like I always wash my face in the shower. Like I'm usually a morning shower, um, and I hate doing it, I don't know, in the sink. Cause then I get water down my, you know, down my arms, all of that. So I do I really appreciate when there's a cleanser, like those products, or even the body care, like the the urea milk and stuff that are obviously totally safe for the face, but in a big enough size for body. I I like that. I want to see more brands doing that.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:17

I've been saying notorium's glycolic acid body wash, face, hair, and body, code hormone 15 gets you a discount. Try it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

I actually, hot take though, I feel like you are in the minority when it comes to that. Really? Because I feel like people who have face products don't want to use them on their body because it's like I perceive my body differently than my face, and I don't want to use my expensive face products on my body.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:37

This economy.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

Okay, but Do you do you did you ever when you formulate products for like face versus body, do you take on a different approach when you're No Really? But I I'm the same way. I'm the same way, and it's hilarious because even still, when I see like a body care product, I'm not thinking I want to put that on my face. Like, but even though I know I was in that room, I formulated this, and there's no difference. But there's a psychology behind it. Yeah, but I think sometimes I I guess I'm less careful about the emulsifiers and emollients I'm using in terms of the communogenicity and stuff when it's going for my body, but also making it cheaper too, because larger fill size. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:15

Do you have an answer for this?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:17

Oh, what was the question? Untapped niche. Untapped niche. Cunty UPF clothing. Somebody uh said on one of our videos the other day that I wish there was slutty sun protective clothing, and I'm gonna find a way to make that happen for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:34

I've been telling Angelo to launch a sole thong, but he won't listen to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:40

That doesn't cover very much, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:42

That's that's what I said. I mean, obviously your crack needs sun protection too, but what about the what about the sun?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

Did you ever go tan your perineum? You know, people were doing that. They were sunning their you know, going out ass up and go out. Yeah, there was that was like one of those wellness things before looks maxing. They were they were tanning their perineums.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:02

What's next? Scooch maxing. She's maxed out. Okay. And on that, last last last question. Again, speedrun. Quick answer. Worst launch you've seen recently.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:15

Ooh.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

How honest are you gonna be?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:18

I genuinely don't have any besides the hypochlorous acid one. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

I have one. Um, it's from a brand called Spooge. It's a sunscreen called Ghosted that's supposed to be ghost invisible, but it's a mineral sunscreen and it's so white.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

It makes you look like a ghost.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:37

But it's also called Spooge. White stuff on your face called Spooch.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

That's they could have just called it gum.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:46

Exactly. Yeah, why don't you just do that? Well, like they need to make a better sunscreen.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

You know what? This isn't a new launch at all, but it's something I received in PR about two years ago, and it pissed me off. It didn't make me mad because of what the product was, but this is an interesting thing in the industry. So it's the brand eczema honey, and they're selling just 100% manuka honey. But because the brand's name is eczema, they're able to make these claims. So people see that and think, this is gonna be great for my eczema. There's no OTC ingredients in there for it. It's just Manuka honey, which manuka honey can be great for microbiome, but that's I've got eczema. That doesn't cure it, you know? Um and I I don't love when brands, and I I noticed this with them, and then there was another brand that did it where the drug claim was in the name of the brand.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:29

The ocean healed my eczema.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:30

That was another one, yes. Yes. I saw that. And it it like I get mad because I I have eczema and I'm like, guys, come on. And it's so frustrating because like we have to be so careful with what we can say in our marketing, and then for a brand to be able to have the drug claim in their name, that like that's annoying. That's just annoying.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:47

It is.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:48

So anyway, that was my that was my hot take.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:53

I want to say what product is the worst, but I hate when brands are using Korea as their marketing. Oh yeah. So a lot of brands have been just rebranding Korean ingredients and trademarking as something else.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:05

I think my answer is just like all the kid brands now. Like Sephora launched those two brands, and I'm like, this is not fulfilling a niche. This is not anything innovative because things that serve these same purposes functioned equally or even better already existed on the market, probably even cheaper. So I'm like, you really were just trying to chase this trend, and it just looks really tacky.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:22

Yeah, because you're you're also t trying to take advantage of children in a way.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:26

So when I was little, I would always, I loved Bath Body Works, had these like pumpkin masks, I remember, like a pumpkin enzyme mask, and I loved it. Like I would make my dad do it with me and my mom, like I loved it, and it was just it was really just hydrating and like softening. And so I I actually wasn't as mad as a lot of people were with the the kid brand launching, even though I know that that was like very um predatory, yeah, to go after kids that way. I didn't like the way the brand was done. But uh in my mind, I'm like, okay, well, at least there's an option for kids if they just want to have fun. But then again, you could just go get like a Vanna Cream moisturizer and put it in a cuter bottle and call it, you know what I mean? Like something safe. And I didn't like that they're like then then I started thinking about it. I'm like, how are they gonna start marketing? Are they gonna use kid influencers for this? And then like, what's that whole thing?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:06

You mean it's also selling these kids focused lines at a premium.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

How much were they selling it for?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:10

The high 20, low 30s, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:12

No, that needs to be like five, ten bucks because it shouldn't have any expensive ingredients in it if it's for like the sensory. Yeah, that's a that's an interesting like point to add on to it. Like, I don't want kids. I literally like I don't want kids in my yeah, well that but no, in my mind, I'm like, oh, I like that they have options for fun because that's how I was as a kid. I wanted to play around with the skincare products and masks and do little spa nights and stuff. It would be so dangerous to create an industry solely for that. And I'm afraid the way consumers and capitalism are that that would just be a slippery slope.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:44

I I have this experience on a daily basis with my kid. I'm coming out of the school.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:49

Always forget you have a kid.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:50

Coming out of the school, the ice cream truck is right there. And so an argument ensues every single day. I hate the man who owns this ice cream truck. I respect him, I respect the hustle, but it causes an argument for me every day. So if I was the type of person to give in, he would be selling all this ice cream. I think that's the same thing with the skincare products. It's the same thing. They just want to get the parent to spend money on it. And you know what? I understand the business, I understand the trend, but as a parent, I'm not into it.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:22

And with that, thank you to our Heavenly Thoughdies for joining us today. We can follow Jane and Alex on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, yeah, anywhere else.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:31

We'll put all your stuff in the description. Give us a like or a five star rating or whatever the affirmative thing is where you get Divine Skin Intervention.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:39

And let Ramon and Angelo know how much this was just absolutely your favorite episode ever because of the guest.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:44

Yeah, if you have any more questions for Jane and Alex, leave them in the comments. Yeah. Bye.