All About Hair (w/ David Lopez)

To kick start Pride Month, for this episode we have a new Heavenly Thottie in our midst: celebrity hairstylist, makeup artist, social media personality David Lopez. In this episode we talk about discovering and finding comfort in our identity and how we express that, moving beyond gender norms, and also delve into hair/wig styling, trends, and faux pas!

Ramón
https://www.instagram.com/glowbyramon/
https://www.tiktok.com/@glowbyramon
https://www.youtube.com/glowbyramon

Angelo
https://www.instagram.com/dermangelo
https://www.tiktok.com/@dermangelo
https://www.youtube.com/dermangelo

Transcript

0:04

Hi Angelo. Hi Ramon. How are we doing? You know what? We're doing fabulously. It's June. Which means one thing. Pride month. What are you proud of? What am I quickly? What am I proud of? You know what? I'm proud of being here, queer, and having no fear, okay? What was that? I'm scared of airplanes, but there's a there's a there's a little bit of fear. Airplanes are homophobic. You heard it here first. Uh no, like on a serious note, I think uh being true to who I am as a person has been part of my personal brand since long before Dermangelo. I, interestingly enough, came out at like a pretty young age compared to a lot of people. Well, okay, I was like fully, fully out to the whole world when I was 18, but like before that, like my family knew and my really close friends knew. And so as I was going through my young adulthood, people were just like coming to me left and right and being like, okay, I don't know how to tell anybody that I'm gay. Like, I was the beacon. Everybody would would would come to me first, and I had to be like, You don't need me to tell you nothing. Sweetie, live your truth. Live your truth. I became like the gay oracle, and I still am. The gay oracle. Um, I came out at 13. Really? First of all, I've always been like this. Like later on in life, my whole family's like, oh, we knew. My aunts, my dad's sisters, they were like, Well, you've tried telling your grandma since you were like three years old. Like, we knew. Um, but no, I came out at 13 because once puberty hit, it was like hormones went into overdrive. And I was what's really funny is I would, before ever knowing what cruising was, me and the boys I was talking to would coordinate, okay, during six period at 2 p.m., let's meet in this bathroom. And we'd go and like make out in the bathroom. Gayness is a spectrum. Okay. Like it never went beyond making out, but I knew when I was very, when did you realize you were gay? You always kind of know. Like when did you realize I had my first question on a boy when I was like six. I mean, I gave probably like my first like little pop kiss to a boy when I was like five, four, something like that. But like, you don't like as a as a kid that age, like you don't know, but then over time, you know, your brain develops and you're like, okay, something's different. Like, ironically, you're and you live in this world of like, okay, I'm getting told this is wrong and I shouldn't feel this way, but why do I? Why does it feel so good? Oh my god. And like ironically, because I knew early on I was exposing myself to a lot of like queer things. So watching a lot of TV shows that were very queer-centric. Like, we've talked about this before. I don't know if you ever posted the episode, but like Ugly Betty was a very pivotal. Oh, we posted it. Did we? Okay. Very pivotal moment in my daughter because I saw Justin and I was like, that is me down. What do you consider to be like your gay awakening? You're like, damn, I can't escape it. It's real. I can't really pinpoint one thing, but like as a kid, I feel like I liked like a lot of like more stereotypically masculine stuff, believe it or not. And as I've said many times, there's nothing gayer than hypermasculinity. So you know, whether it was like uh when I was really little, like I loved like the Power Rangers or whatever, but it's like some of the boys were cute. So it's like oh, okay, machismo, and like all of those things. And then, you know, as I got older, obviously sexuality's a spectrum. So like my first celebrity crust crush my celebrity crush, my first celebrity crush was actually Cindy Crawford, still kind of is though, but pretty gay pick, right? A supermodel you were like, I'm gonna like a woman, it's gonna be one of the most beautiful women in the world. Like exactly go bigger, go home. Yeah, so yeah, and then it just sort of like developed from there. Um, I knew for a while. The joke with me and my husband is my first like crush was Samurai Jack. And like I was watching this on Cartoon Network, like five or six years old, like, damn. A cartoon character. She's fine. Um what really solidified it for me was that scene in White Chicks when they're at the beach and the girl's laying down and she's like, What happened to the sun? And then she looks up, and Terry Cruz is just standing above her, his like oiled body and that speedo. That did so much for me. Terry Cruz is hot. I don't understand why they thought that was gonna be funny to anybody. Going back to Machismo, big strong man. Uh-huh. But then it was really funny. I mean, in Latin culture, we watched novelas and like Ricky Martin was really hot. Also, William Levy. Every Latino knows this. William Levy was the iconic novella actor when those photos leaked, him and the nude underwear or the mesh underwear. It was a very full circle moment for a lot of us. I remember I remember when those photos came out. I remember where I was in front of my family computer looking at them. Computer. Computer. Yeah, internet search history. I got I got in trouble a lot. Mom would be like, um, these search results. And I'd be like, oh my gosh, that's so crazy. These viruses. I was on Limewire downloading content I should not have been downloading. Yeah. Yeah, I think many a millennial was outed by the family computer search history. They said us dirty. I think we could file a class action lawsuit against Internet Explorer or something. Microsoft, we're comment for you. It's really interesting though. You think about the fact that we are the first like queer generation that really grew up with internet access. And when we were granted that free access to just look up anything and everything, we really took the reins and it became a problem. Um, did your family actually like find your search history? Uh I if they did, they didn't say anything about it. Oh my you never had to have the like really uncomfortable what is this? Nope. Because I knew how to delete that shit. I thought I did. Well, also, yeah, I think I had my own computer by the time I was like 13, 14. I didn't even be like my mom would be like, how do you use your computer? And be like, why? Give me three minutes. Please give me three minutes. If your mom is watching this. Oh, she does, she loves you. Oh, hi mom. She doesn't give me her name's Jessica. Say hi Jessica. Hi, Jessica! She's asking me all these questions about you. She was like, that dermatologist is he in New York with you? I'm like, yeah, mommy, we filmed together. Like, yes, he lives in New York. Like, oh like, what does he do? Does he does he do like Botox and stuff? Uh okay, you need to come see me the next time you come visit. Mommy, okay, so hi little cherubs. Today we have a heavenly thoughtie. Please welcome David Lopez. Yes! He is a can I say celebrity hairstylist? Yeah. Celebrity hairstylist, content creator, extraordinaire. Um, and I've been loving your content for so long. Thank you. We actually just off camera were talking about that you've been doing content related to your work for like 12 years now. Yeah, yeah, it's been about 12 years. I think it had a huge shift in uh in COVID, as it did for all of us, I think. I got to a point in my career where I was like, why am I doing this? You know, I had worked on everyone from Hailey Bieber, Chrissy Teagan, Ashley Graham, and I was like, oh, I feel like I need social and the digital space to contribute a little more and kind of break down what actually goes into creating these looks on these celebrities that are then being brought into salons and people are looking at, I want to look like this. And I was kind of like, okay, well, it takes like three hours to get this person ready. It takes so much money, maintenance, there's a stylus involved. So I started making content to kind of break that down. But then when I started putting the wigs on, because I was like, I can't do the how to do your hair on a mannequin or a person, it's not it's not the same experience. So I was like, let me put a wig on because she's a little gay boy, and show you how to do it yourself. And that's when the content like really became its own thing, and that was 2020. Sometimes the key to success is being a homosexual fully. Embrace it. Hence the three people you have in front of you. Okay, yeah, so it's definitely interesting, like for me too, to see how content has changed, but in the beginning, what was kind of your motivation? Was it to like elevate your profile as a hairstylist? Was it just to share what you know? I don't know that it ever had an objective other than to sort of archive and document my life, which I think is a part of the DNA of who I am. When I was like six, we left Puerto Rico and moved to Europe. And with that, we got a camcorder for my grandfather to record our lives and we would send videos back to him. So it was a way for me to always like document everything. And even in high school, I had a film camera. I have I was taking selfies with film cameras. Like I fully would set it up, and I'm like, we made like weird shots. I'd photograph my sister and everything. So that was already ingrained in me. And then being on set, part of it was this documentation of like I felt so happy to be on set. Like, I was like, I can't believe I'm living my dream. Like, I I won't have shared this recently, I was homeless at one point. And so to be on set and like be on a Michael Kors shoe or be in a Vogue set cover and be doing the hair, I was like, I need to document this. Like, I want to know like how I did the hair, and that's really how it started. And then I think from there became a storytelling impact on seeing other people react to it and sharing that information with people because I love to democratize access to those spaces that I felt like I was excluded from. Yeah, I definitely feel like anything with like editorial fashion, like hairstyling, even makeup artistry, it's like there used to be more of a wall, yeah. Or like there were gatekeepers, and like the only way that people were able to consume content was through, you know, traditional media. Um, and now in a way we've kind of killed them by going like direct to the audience. So um do you ever get like inspired by what your audience is asking for, or um is it mostly the other way around? No, I'm not gonna you people in my DMs, in my audience, I get inspired uh I think by humanity in general. So it it's obvious that then what's happening in my DMs would inspire what I make and also the comments that I get. There's the good parts of it, which are the people encouraging you that are like, I love this, I want to see more of this. I did have an experience a couple years ago that was, for all intents and purposes, like would be considered a negative experience for a content creator where you fall on the wrong side of Instagram, as they say, or wrong side of TikTok. I actually leaned into it and I wanted to discover more about why those comments were happening and why that rhetoric was still existing. It was it was this there's a simple video of me showing you how to knock down your flyaways, right? With a kabuki brush and hairspray. But I've been like a full beat. I'm like, bam, you know? And it was like, why does he want to be a woman so bad? And why does he's a girl? Like, what is this disgustingness? And I was just kind of like, ooh, I know this is not about me. I know that we're all a reflection of each other, and like people are seeing something that they don't want to see, right? In that, there's the very pragmatic business side of like, I'm gonna make more of this because thank you for the comments. Thank you for the engagement. You know what I mean? Then there's the other side of it, is like continuing the dialogue. And if someone was like kind of respectful, I'd engage with them and I would go on these lives on TikTok and be like, hey, if you want to tell me your opinion in a respectful way, like I'm willing to listen to it. And in that, I learned so much around how misogyny and the patriarchy has kind of like cooked the brains of so many of us in ways that we didn't even realize. You know what I mean? And that definitely started informing my content as well. In that friends and family would say, isn't that hard to sort of like see the comments that you're getting when you are dressed in like more femme? And I'm like, no, I I think it's important for me as Mike. If I say that I myself am a beacon of light and I want to stay in the light, sometimes the light shows you what's hiding in the dark. And I think it's important that I I want to know what's hiding in the dark. I want to know what people are saying in private spaces. Now they're saying it very publicly on someone who has a big platform. And so that for me became the the foundation for a lot of the content I started making, which was really so fun to watch. I I think, you know, um a lot of people tell me that they, you know, appreciate how I respond to hate and hate comments and whatever. But I have to say, there's a group of creators like yourself that really inspire me because, you know, the easier thing to do would be just to ignore it or just to block people sometimes. But it's like people really do have these attitudes, and how are we gonna change them if we don't confront it? Especially because people all around us are thinking these things. It's just that when somebody has the safety of being behind, you know, a keyboard or a touch screen, they just let it go. And it's things that they would never say to your face. So I think, you know, it's really commendable the way that you kind of like use that as almost like fuel. Yeah. I mean, I I I've I've been very spicy too. I make it very clear to people that I say, obviously, my visibility elicits a reaction in you. What I want you to do is not make me the vessel for it. I'm not the vessel for it. Clearly, this is a part of you that is not having an escape. There's somewhere inside of you that you see me whether it's like, why does this person think he gets to do whatever he wants and not subscribe to the gender norms that I've subscribed to? They don't have that language, but that's what they're feeling. So they're kind of like, How dare you? and that. And that's fair. I'm not the vessel for it though, and I refuse to be the vessel for it. And I've had a couple moments where my way of calling someone out or calling them in is I love to go to people's pages, and like there was like this one I her name was Susan, and I went to her, she's something really nasty. And I went to her page and it was like uh sunflower emoji. She's a grandmother. She was like, These are my favorite things at Marshall's. She seems so sweet. And so I sent her a DM and I was like, hey, I saw your comment. I'm really disappointed. I went to your page. You seem like such a lovely person. You seem to really love your family. I really love when you shared this video about this lipstick as someone that's at your age. I have to say, I don't imagine you someone that would ever meet me and say what you said to me to my face. I'm just disappointed, and I I would really hope that that's something you would say. She found my email. Like two weeks later, I got an email from her. She found my email. She wrote an email. It was like, you had every opportunity to be nasty back to me, and you didn't. And I'm really sorry. And she was like, in this world where people are gonna fight and they're gonna want to yell back at you. She's like, You didn't shame me publicly like other people would. You didn't do anything other than just respond kindly. And I did feel really bad, and you're very right. I would not, I would never say that to a person to their face. And I was like, T, Susan, T. But sometimes you gotta let them know a little more stiffly. But yeah, yeah. Not everybody's a Susan. No, not sometimes you gotta let them know a little more precisely. But yeah, it was like a it was an interesting moment for me to have that experience with her. You went straight to the source. That is so gaggy. I think sometimes, depending on how out of pocket the comment is. Oh, yeah. I will fully engage and then we'll do a full video. Because I'm just like, you chose to on a very public page, leave a comment publicly. So the response is going to be public. Oh, I've done it. I've tagged people, I've put their names out there. I'm like, oh, oh, you're dox doxing them. They it's a they put it in public. It's there for everyone to see. I'm not doing anything. Yeah, it I have like been like, hey, you said this thing publicly, and then have people come back to me like, oh my god, how could you do this to me? I'm like, you said that. I didn't say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said it with your full name there and a photo of your face. So, you know, be careful online because I don't know, you don't want one of these divas to come after you. You don't know what mood I'm gonna be in. Also, I realized we're like a fully stacked Puerto Rican couch right now. Yeah. Whippa! Let's do it. And that's why the energy is very feisty. We're spicy, we're ready to fight, but spicy. Um, have you always been so, I guess like, I don't know if empathetics the word compassionate understanding of people, or just is something you had to grow into? Because I mean, again, the way you approach that with Susan, I'm like, oh, I wouldn't, I'm sorry, I'm not that like level-headed and that like kind. Let me let me come down to your level. Like, no, I will touch down. That's growth. I think, you know, I'm Puerto Rican, not to like fall into a stereotype, you know, I can be feisty. I think in a more unhealed part of my life, I would have been more direct and maybe a little more nasty. And I have, and I have, I have definitely, especially in my 30s and early 30s, I was, you know, pre-therapy. I I was nasty sometimes with people. Thank God it wasn't like documented in some ways because I was I could be very direct. And you know, I think as most queer people know, like gay men, we really know how to cut to the jugular. Like, I will go straight to the thing that you don't want anyone to say out loud. I will go there. I think that for the foundation of who I am, though, I mean, one of my first report cards is like David's very sensitive. Like, I'm just a very sensitive person, having been bullied my whole life. I'm not talking about like cute bullied, I'm talking about like chasing from school, beat up, parents coming to school. Like it was it was really bad for me. I think that that made me very soft. And then I'm also two years ago, I got diagnosed as being on the spectrum. And like, I think part of the ways that my empathy actually part of is it tied to me being very observant of human behavior to mimic it because there were moments that like I didn't know how to react. So sometimes in mimicking the behavior that people want, it actually elicits a very real sponsoring because there are other times I don't have emotional responses to things that people are like having a most response to. I'm like, oh, I don't, what are we what are we why are you sad? You know, like I don't get it, but I am deeply, deeply empathetic and emotional and compassionate because of the experiences I've been through in my life being bullied, being homeless, being on my own, like doing all these things. I think when you feel like an underdog and you kind of grow up feeling that way, you kind of will always have a a soft spot for people that you recognize that in. You're like, oh, that's someone that needs a little more of something, and I want to be there. Yeah, I see some of the baby gays, and I see a lot of the for lack of better word, like they're hurt, and therefore as a result of that, it comes out in like a very negative means. And I'm just like, you are going to have to hit rock bottom, unfortunately, to make that 180. And that's the unfortunate part. To your point, like I was also like bullied a lot growing up. What's really funny is Puerto Rican mom, her thing was if someone hits you, hit them back twice as hard. I don't care if I gotta come to school and talk to that principal. Um, and I had to learn how to fight. But up until I was like in my early 20s, that was kind of the attitude I had. And because you get picked on so much, you learn very quickly to get a thick skin, but also yeah, cut go for the jugular and hit really hard. But I still haven't got to the point yet where I'm like, let me hold your hand when I say this. Oh no, I hit hard, especially in my personal life. Like, I you need to have outlets for it. Like my boyfriend who is with me at all times, he's like, if people knew how sometimes you like talk, like when you're in a bad mood, I'm like, ask them out somewhere. Like, I just don't know that it's necessary, like if I they if anyone needs another voice being that mean. Or like, I don't think that I'm ever mean. I think I'm just like, I'm I'm like, I will punch down. I just think that sometimes I'm like, is the juice worth the squeeze? And also, it's not my brand. Like, it's just not my brand. It's it's not what I'm known for. And you get to a point as a creator where you're big enough and you have enough of a profile, it's a little off-center for me all of a sudden to be that part of myself. I don't mind it coming out in other times, but like I think in ways that are permanent, it's a little more challenging for me to let it out. I have a couple of videos that I've posted that were a little more like get yourself together, Susan. And people like those kind of videos, but it's it's also David the brand is friendly, he's welcoming, he's not, you know, he's he's empathetic, he's patient, he's kind. I am all those things, but we're not a binary. I'm also can be very direct and pretty nasty sometimes. It's interesting because people get very parasocial in a way, and like they don't understand the difference between, yeah, like you're saying, the person and the brand necessarily, which is why sometimes I think people are very surprised. Like, if you come back at them, they're like, oh, yeah, what is this? And I think a lot of it is they don't see that uh there's a person on the other end of what they're saying. You're not just some brand or just like a little profile on Instagram, you're like a real human. Yeah. They don't get that. Yeah. Yeah, and I feel like for us, especially, a lot of some of the negative feedback or lashings we get is related to content that we're experts in. So especially for you, Angelo, I know you will make the response video and be like, So I'm a doctor, I'm a dermatologist. Let's let's revisit this, let's break it down. The thing is with my husband, he's really good at if I'm pissed about something, he's like, give it a good 24 hours, think this through clearly so that the response is a lot more concise, it's clear, you're a lot more like chilled out, and you're not responding in like a pissed-off way. And then I always get responses, responses like, wow, Ramon, like you responded so kindly and so level-headed. And I'm like, if you would have talked to me yesterday. I think responding with facts, like you both do, I think, is it actually feels like the most ultimate form of like a backhand because it's like you can't argue with science and facts over opinions. And I don't always have that as a hairstyle. Some people argue with me about hair things, and which is why I'm so deeply like involved like the science of hair. But that's I don't know how y'all would manage that. And I and it's almost sometimes you see people in these social spaces take the advice of a wellness influencer not looking at their any credibility, and then there's an actual licensed. Doctor, chemist telling you that's wrong. And they're like, no. Like, I'm like, what do you mean, no? Like, they this is what they study, this is what they do. We always talk about how people always think we're part of like, oh, big skincare. Big pharma. Big pharma. Oh my god. Is there a big hair? There, you know, there is a high body count hair. There's a high body count hair. I think that there is uh a lot of misinformation around hair. I think the worlds get blurred when it comes to hair is a fabric, right? And there's so much nuance with hair because, like, you know, with skin, it also depends on like what someone's doing at home, and they're not always telling you what they're doing at home, and they don't even know what they're doing at home. So I can give as much advice as I want and know the chemistry of the hair and what it's doing, but if they're not willing to listen to it, then there's only so much I can do. If they're gonna listen to then another um influencer who is never went to beauty school, doesn't know anything about hair, is like, just use this conditioner, look at my hair. I'm like, that's they don't even have the same hair as you. Like, I don't even know why you're listening to them, like in the first place, and why you're expecting the same results, you know. Mm-hmm. It's always somebody who's like, Well, I have hair down to my ass, so look at this ridiculous 20-step routine that I do all the time. And so, yeah, if I try to debunk any of that, people are always like, Well, her hair is down to your ass and yours isn't. And I'm like, My hair probably could be down to my ass if I wanted it to, but speaking for myself, I think I'm uh lucky in the way that more of the hate that I get is people just looking for confirmation bias who want to disagree with me. I did have one ad once that ended up getting like syndicated onto Facebook. So, oh my god, the boomers. The gaggiest thing is it's always when a brand uh pushes an ad onto Facebook and then the middle America crowd gets a hold of that, runs with it. And my favorite part is, Karen, I literally can see where you live, where you work, who your employer is, where you go to church, and I will be making calls and sending emails. Don't forget that. Meanwhile, I'm talking about like a facial moisturizer in my scrubs. Like it's not just- But what was the heat that they were getting? Like, what was it that they were pissed about? Oh homosexual. Why would a man be selling a woman's cream? Oh, that part. Yeah. I'm like, okay, we all have skin, and also I'm a freaking dermatologist. Like, what do you what do you expect? But, you know, yeah, at least most of the hate I get is not about sexuality, gender identity. I know that you are, you know, very kind of open with your gender expression online, a beacon, if I will say, like, of just like being who you are at whatever time you want to be. Like, how did that come about? Yeah, when did you first put on the wig? I mean, I always loved putting on wigs. I loved the expression of femininity, I loved the inherent uh, mind you, like it is created that long hair is feminine and and in our society today. And I've always been obsessed with long hair. I wanted to know what that felt like and feel like. I used to come to set with wigs that prize a part of my kit, and I it was like David would do like Wig Wednesday. Every Wednesday I would do like a this is like 2016. Every Wednesday post a photo of myself in a wig. No beat anything, just like a synthetic wig, shake and go. When this all really started to come to light for me was June of 2020 during BLM. I had to really through my own research and deep diving, and I had started therapy at this point, understand the way that I had sort of had my internalized racism. And I mean, I straightened my hair since I was 18 until that point. I did everything I could to sound more white, talk more white, walk more white. I didn't want to even be seen as like too Puerto Rican. I needed to be the whitest version of myself, even though I wasn't naming it that way. It's the most professional version of myself to gain access to spaces that I would not otherwise. Because I felt like as a college dropout that that was the only way I can get as long as I play the part of like what white people are doing, professional white people, then I can do it. So when I started breaking that down, wearing my hair curly, it kind of started breaking down the scaffolding that I had created around myself for all those years. And one of them was my femininity. I felt that my masculinity was a role I was playing. I, even as like a gay man, it was like masculinity is so coveted and it is so desired and desirable that I was playing the part of it. And in the process of sort of breaking down that dynamic I had within myself around like I want to be as white as possible, even though my dad is half black. Like I just didn't want that to be a part of my identity. I then put on a wig and I I put a post up. I was shaking when I posted it. I remember like I was shaking when I hit like post. The response was like amazing. And I kept doing it because it felt good and it felt so fun to like chew on the brand new piece of gum of like doing something I've always wanted to express. Like I just want to know what it feels like to be like gay. Not just like I just want to know what's what it's like to have a lash on, what I have a wig on, like a dress on. Like, and it felt so good, and it felt so fun, and it felt so liberating. And I actually felt liberating seeing people like react negatively to it and still do it. And I didn't care at the time. And then my makeup skills improved. And the hair got better and the clothing got better and everything. And then we went through the era of everyone waking up to pronouns. And for a minute there, I was like, oh, I guess I'm gender fluid or they, I would identify as they, them. But then I realized something is that it's it isn't that. I never felt in full glam in my femme. If you go to my page and see, like, I still feel like a him. Like I don't, or sometimes I feel like a she. I don't, I'm not in my head convinced that I'm a woman. I just have the pronoun of she in my head, like, oh, I'm a she right now. You know what I mean? And I think it's important for me to note that this actually ties back to some of the anger that I would get and my comments a lot of times were from women, not men. Men were like grossed out, gay, whatever, that's normal. Women coming after me was like, oh, that's a new one for women, cis women, to be like, you think being a woman is long hair and lashes? I'm like, I don't. I think the world has made you think that though. Because I went to your page worn lashes, I don't know where. You don't, I haven't seen you wear a heel in three years. I haven't seen you put on a skirt. Drag her you drag her. That's what I was like, I don't really know, like, you can't have children. I'm like, I have biological women, uh, cis women friends that are, you know, born as women that can't have children. They are still women. Like, so for me, it made me want to do it more. And I was like, oh, I I actually want you to know and recognize that what I put on is actually what you have let the world decide for you, is what makes a woman. That's not my problem. Sorry, it's not my problem. I'm a little gay boy putting on long hair and a wig and putting on lashes and contacts and dancing around to a K-pop song. If you're mad about it, be mad at people in government. You're not mad at them. Why is she mad in the first place? Is my question. Like, what is it worth her energy and her? They don't know, they don't know that they're mad. That's that that was where I was like really like, oh, this anger is not about me. This anger is around around your sensitive subject. This anger is around, I think, cis women existing in a world that does tell them how they should act, how they should look, how they should behave, and creates policies that keeps them in some way system systemically underneath men in terms of payroll. And that is a very valid reason to be angry. Those are very valid, and they have every right to be angry. Kind of talk, so this started in 2020, you said. Yeah. And obviously I feel like in the last, specifically the last two or three years, there's been a very noticeable trend to a lot more conservatism. Conservativism? Conservative. Conservatism. Have you noticed the types of comments, the energy you get shifts specifically in the last few years, even more so or more so towards this like negative side of things? Yeah. I I think that uh especially 2020 and beyond, I think I went into it already seeing it, and then it became stronger after, you know, one of our last elections. But honestly, like it's feels the same. Like I it's nothing new for me. Like, I think if anything, what I have seen it, where I have seen it, brands, is you go to brand pages and there's not a man on their site anymore. Like, you're not seeing men on the brand's pages in makeup, in glam. I mean, I don't know if you experienced this either, but like I used to get a lot of brand deals come June. Oh, I have two years. I will say there's a couple, that's the thing. We've noticed brands get really scared, and I feel like there's a couple brands that do still consistently do it. Last year, OPI actually threw a really fun drag event. They paid the Queens well. The Queens still got tips from the audience members who were like still predominantly cis white girls. Glow recipe, they they do that toner every year. And I think that that toner just keeps pride going. Well, benefit and donating to the Trevor Project, which is important. Brands haven't abandoned it completely. I think that they don't um make it as much of a thing as they used to. I also think it has touched all parts of community. I also see it in gay culture. Like, gay men right now are really prioritizing masculinity more than they ever have. I think like twink death is like funny and cute, but it actually I think is signaling this idea that like being a man right now is and identifying as like a man is more powerful. Like the looks maxing thing of Clavical Ortiver, I'm like, these are just gay men. These are all, they're all doing drag. This is all gay men. Like this gay men are like this too, right now. You know what I mean? We did a whole episode on that, and I gotta tell you, like, nothing is gayer than hyper masculinity. It is gender-affirming surgery at some point. Everything from getting like the the hair plugs and all of the breaking your jaw and all that stuff. It really is just like living up to a set standard that you have in your head of what being a man is supposed to be. Have you noticed the voice thing guys do? They they like explicitly lower their voice a lot more. And it like it sounds so forced, and it's like, sweetie, honey. I think there's moments I used to be very um insecure about my voice growing up because I used to talk like a valley girl for real growing up. I I'm on camera so much and I hear myself so much I don't care about it anymore, but I do notice when someone's putting it on. Also, why do 22 why do why do 22-year-olds today look like they're 35 and sound like they're 40? Like they're so like I'm like, you're 22. Like you look like I thought you were older than me. Like how why is this happening? You know what? They came up in a very stressful world. I we feel for you. 22-year-olds, I kind of feel bad for you. I get it, but you know, I'm 41 and look at the material, so but also that's thanks to people like these two right here. Well, I look the way I do. Okay, well, David, being focused in hair, especially wigs, is there anything fun or interesting related to like hair tips, hacks, wigs do you want to share? I think right now people need to learn how to wash their hair again. Oh I just think that there's like a unspoken like epidemic of not to use a very deep science term, around people relying on shampoo to do the work. And so they put it on, they quickly do and rinse, and then they sit in my chair and blowing it on, like, why is it still dirty? It's like especially back here, like they're not really getting in there and like really washing it. And then if you have curly hair like I do, I think people don't realize that some of the ingredients in your stylers need a cleanser to get it off of the hair. You can't use like a soft curl, like use a clarifying shampoo. I I am I used to be so heavy against like strong clarifiers for curly hair or like really strong shampoos. Now I'm like, if my hair's not doing what I needed to do, I clarify and it comes back to life every single time. Give us a sulfate. A sulfate, I need it. I think that sacred's really having a moment right now. I think having stylers that have a highly textured audience in mind with tighter textures actually unlocks more doors for everybody. And I think being myself from from someone from the Caribbean, our sort of knowledge inherently always existed with across multiple hair types. I think that's why a lot of Caribbean people are good at hair. Because we do hair. My friends that live in Puerto Rico, they they have clients with everyone from very fine straight hair to tightly wound 4C hair. And without batting an eye, they'll do all of them, all sorts of hair the entire day. Where I think in America, it's easier for a hairstylist to do hair in a community that really has hair like theirs, and that's all they kind of know, and that's just how the world works here. I think I'm excited around the way that we are democratizing the education. I work with Ulta Beauty, and it's my seventh year of my partnership with them. And on the education side, I mean Ulta has over 1500 salons, and they are working really hard to democratize the access to education for more highly textured hair. And basically, how do you have a salon where like anyone can walk in and get their hair done? I think that's something that's really important. Also, what's not to do my plugs, but I think something I'm looking forward to with products is products that you can also put on your scalp. I think for a long time it was like choose one or the other. So you have your scalp product that is for regrowth, uh, you know, scalp health, and then your styler. And a lot of times conditioners don't put the conditioner on your scalp. Well, don't put the styler on your scalp, blah, blah, blah. But now we're seeing I think some innovation from a product standpoint that is, I think like um Jack Black, that's the brand. They I think they have a styler that is like a basically kind of sort of like monoxidal, but it's also a styler. So you can put it and makes your hair have like texture and fullness. Bumble and Bumble release their hydrama styling foam and thickening styling foam, and it basically helps with the overall scalp health, and you're meant to put the product on your scalp and your hair, and it creates like volume and fullness. And I'm excited around that sort of like blending the sort of wellness science, but also making it beautiful and country at the same time. Yeah, I think people neglect their scalp a lot. Yeah, as a dermatologist, I noticed that. And yeah, to your point about like you should be shampooing your scalp. I put conditioner on my scalp. Well, isn't it true that like you're changing when you put shampoo on your scalp, you're changing the pH level of the scalp, right? In a way. Yeah, but you know, your skin's pH can can return to normal pretty easily on its own. And if you think about it, it's like to your point about um people needing a clarifying shampoo every now and again, it's like the product that you're putting on your hair gets on your scalp too. So, like if you have too much of that buildup, it could potentially, you know, interfere with hair growth, it could lead to issues like folliculitis. So you really do want to be cleansing your scalp too. And that's the issue when we went kind of sulfate-free, is the detergency of a sulfate is just so efficient. So when you start going to alternatives where it's not cleansing as well, so we're getting these issues of you're not properly clarifying and therefore you're having the related issues of product buildup, but also like a not properly cleansed scalp. So that's why we say we we actually really do want sulfates back. They're cheap, they're easy, they're efficient, and you can mitigate a lot of the negative impact of a sulfate. But there's different types of sulfates, obviously. Correct. And there's also just means of just formulating to make them a lot more gentle. Right, exactly. I think that's part of it, is that I wanted to start doing this series around like ingredients on shampoos and conditioners, but it's like I love seeing a video from like a curly hair influencer. It's like, I picked up this conditioner, it has alcohol in it, and I was like, that was a big thing. Oh my god. That was a big 18. Wait, does that come from the curly girl method? I think it comes a lot from the curly community that became very hyper-vigilant around a very real sort of experience they were having around products that were just not benefiting their hair. It's totally valid. But then you get into a space where like you don't understand a formulation and like actually the alcohol is actually more moisturizing in that aspect and how it's formulated and it's so sometimes people just start seeing the words, they see ceramosulfate alcohol, they're like, it's gonna be extremely drying. And then also, what's your base level of your hair? Like, if you were just to let your hair be clean, dry, your hair probably feels dry because it's probably coarse. Is that dry or is that just your hair texture? Like, what is soft and why are we chasing soft hair? What is defined and is your hair naturally doing it? So that part for me gets a little muddy when people make these very broad statements around ingredients that are just not factually based. Yeah, I think a lot of it does come down to the overall formulation. So all these products went sulfate-free, but meanwhile, you could formulate a really gentle shampoo with sulfates in it. One thing people don't think about is sometimes it's not even the product you're using, especially when it comes to hair, it's the water and the hardness of the water. And sometimes with the excess of the metal ions that make hard water hard, interacting with specific surfactants in your product, that is where some of the negative impact comes from. That's a lot of science for everyone. Just basically pay attention to what you're doing with your hair. And maybe sometimes it's not the product's fault, it's your fault. Like I just hate to say this. Like I'm so sorry. I'm sorry, people are like, people will buy a hair tool they've never used before, open it up, turn it on, it's not working. Did you read the instructions? No. People never read the instructions on things. I know we're going through like a literacy crisis. Read the instructions on your product. Read the instructions on your products, read the instructions on your blow dryer, your hair tools. There's videos. Before you go online and bad mouth a product or a tool, make sure that you were following the instructions that were given to you. And just before you say it doesn't work, maybe it was you. You don't work. One hair trend that I've seen that is annoying me is people oiling or putting in a hair mask and then shampooing it out. Well, don't they do that? Tell me why. Tell me why. Let the people know why. Shampoo is meant to, you know, cleanse basically like oils and other substances out of the hair. Oiling it afterwards or putting on a hair mask after is to condition the hair, add some potential moisturization feel. But by putting it in first and then shampooing it out, you're defeating the purpose. And I've had people say to me, Well, shampoos are too drying if you don't do that. To which I say, get a different shampoo. Maybe the shampoo is too harsh. You could get a gentler shampoo and not have to do all of this. What is your take as a hairstylist? Okay, I need you to debunk something for me because I'm guilty of giving this advice. I'm very guilty of giving this advice. Oh my god, I'm about to use it Oh my god. My thing was when I was like getting into, I used to work at DivaCurl at Divastan salon back in like 2006, front desk. The stylister would say before you get in the shower, to help protect, you want to cleanse the scalp, right? But not necessarily the rest of your hair. It's okay to not have to wash your hair every day. So we would say on dry hair, put conditioner, and then when you get in the shower, wash your hair, and as the shampoo rinses out, that cleanser won't like strip as much of the cleansing stuff on the ends. And that's what I was gonna say earlier. That is the myth that I was taught by girls with curly hair is you do so so that your clout your scalp is getting cleansed. But especially if you want to like preserve and maintain your texture, your curls, the suppleness of your hair, the conditioners can always be able to do that. Does that is it am I embarrassing myself or I feel like theoretically that could work? There's probably like not a great evidence-based answer to that. That's not what I was talking about, though. I'm talking about people that are washing the full length of their hair after doing that, not just trying to clean their scalp. You know what I think they're doing? It's like kind of you're doing kind of like an oil cleanse. You're double cleansing at that point. No. Wait, which method? I'm saying if you oil your hair before you shampoo, is that oil not gonna break down hairspray product, gel product, other products in the hair? It depends. A lot of those specific types of products are water-soluble polymers. Okay, so it's not the same as like makeup. Like where it comes down to where that could be beneficial is things for like frizz control, because that is then like silicone to methicone based. But even still, you're oiling that, but there's no emulsifiers in that oil to then rinse away. Gotcha. So that's not oil cleansing. So that's why it's like if you try to take your makeup off with like olive oil and then rinse that, that's not rinsing away because the olive oil is olive oil. There's no emulsifiers to help it wash away easily. So too. And then you're thinking, if anything, you have to cleanse even more to break the double layer of oil down. Right. Okay, that makes sense. Stop oiling your hair before you shampoo it, it's doing nothing for you. Also, there's such things like very hydrating shampoos. You have they deposit either silicones or conditioning agents while you're shampooing and rinsing it out so that way it's not drying. To be fair, to be fair, I say this. If you what you're doing, you like doing it and you like how your hair looks and feels, I don't care. Keep doing it. But I still want you to know, it's probably not doing anything. But if you like it, keep doing it. If it's a cultural thing for you, keep doing it. If it if it makes you happy, do it. Just know scientifically, it's not really worth it. So you've been doing hair for a very long time. Yeah. How many years now? Very long time. I started doing hair. My first salon was at Cutler, and it was in 2007, I want to say. So you've been around for a minute. The industry's evolved and changed and shifted so much. What are your summary what are some of your favorite like hair innovations or hair moments over the years? Over the years, I really appreciated the like Lady Gaga era with the hairbow. Ooh. I thought that was just like I thought it was so whimsical. Yeah, I just loved like having whimsical things happen with hair, and I thought that was an era we really started seeing. hair become like its own accessory and I do think Lady Gaga like did bring that back to pop culture. I think drag and queer culture has always done it, but Lady Gaga obviously like got that inspiration from from the scene. That was really fun to sort of witness these like very dramatic hair transformations and hair as an accessory. Then going into the era of people understanding their natural texture more and I think then the other swing of it was then it became like if you have naturally curly hair or you have tightly textured hair, the only way to wear it is natural. It's like no like you can wear your hair however you want. It's just knowing like what you're doing to it when you're when you're doing the things you're doing to it, relaxing heat styling all things. I think right now what I'm really loving is a return to just like beautiful thick healthy hair like nothing will get more engagement on a channel than someone that has like long thick glossy healthy hair that is just nice long layers. I call it the share hair from Clueless. It just moves it's bouncy it's silky and people just love seeing it. Whether it's from a wig or if it's your own hair I think hair signals a sort of socioeconomic status. I think your skin and your hair are a social currency and I think that you can very much fool the world that you are a person of a certain status by having nice skin and nice hair. When you have those two locked in people will look at you and oh they have something together. The skin is beautiful the hair is done they are something it's problematic. But I do like that we are at this place of like you know what I want to make sure that my skin looks as good as it can and that my hair looks as healthy and as thick as possible and that men are getting the hair plugs and then they're doing all the things I think there's two sides to that coin but I kind of like that right now. I think maybe even that connotation is true because it costs a lot to get your hair done. It costs so much money. I think we know I think especially in black communities I think there's like a thing to be said around like having a 40 inch long wig says something about you. Oh 40 inch bust down. Yeah 40 inch bust down 250 density she got money. You know what I mean? So it says something about you. It's like you have a handbag on your head. Do you know what I mean? Like you have a Louis Vuitton Price wig on your head and people can see that they clock it and like oh that person is doing something. I think also I mean correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like in recent years people are like far more open about wearing wigs too than they used to be. Well they got better too knowing the tips and the tricks and how to make it look more realistic unclockable as they say I also don't if you sometimes looks like a wig it looks like a wig what can I say? Also some people have wig face and some people don't wait what's wig face wig face tell us I have wig face I can put on a wig and it looks like my hair put the same wig on a different man. I don't know how to explain it some people have wig face where you put the wig on them and it looks like their hair some people no matter what you do you put a wig on them it looks like a wig baby drag first time. Do you know what I mean? Do you have wig face you think uh no you'll clock that wig but my special talent is my special talent is I can always clock a wig will be watching TV and I run to the TV and I'm like wig. Me too clock the lace that's a wig yeah I have this theory and it came about from uh bad wigs in movies and TV that all wigs exist on a spectrum. At one end is your like unclockable that shit's growing right out of their head nobody can tell and all the way at the other end of the spectrum a wig can become so bad that it's just a hat. It's a hat. It's a hat. I actually call my wigs hats like I call them hats because I want them to fit like a hat and so whenever my wig falls I'm like oh my hat came off I call it and then I call my hat a wig. I'm like oh my wig I don't know why it's like I love the idea it's like my wig where's my wig this is my work wig today. This is my work wig this is my work wig and then my wigs are my hats. How many wigs do you have at your place right now? I have at least in like actually at home right now because I just got rid of a whole bunch I have probably like 200 wigs. What and then I have probably like really nice like beautiful plucked bleach knots I probably have like 30 of those that are like the very fancy ones. If you're looking for a house to rob that's the one yep I live here by the way so uh what's been the worst hair trend you've seen over the last God you know what I really didn't like for a long time was not the current version of like Jacob Bellordi hair like kind of mullet I love. I actually think it's very sexy. It was like an era where it was like a true mullet and like Bushwick was giving rat tail I was like enough stop it like enough eight years ago? Yeah I had a true mullet at one point I don't know why it gives me it makes me I get I get an ick. I don't know how to explain it I get visually an ick. You know what else where why does the effort stop here? Like I just I want to see people do their hair again. It it actually doesn't take that much effort too like you could put a slick back center park slick it back little knot little bun a little hair little hair here cute but when I see people dressed up to the nines and there's no effort made on the hair I'm like I don't care if it's bad if you made effort I'm like okay they tried. Yeah it's like why does the hair get neglected then see then my sad side inside is like they don't know any better. So they gave up because hair is hard. It is hair is different than skin care and different than makeup. Now here's my deal is makeup to me is harder than hair. So how are you gonna do a full makeup is harder than hair everything out and your hair's not dental that's why I look like this I will say this. Let me not backtrack but let me say this. I think that there are certain hair fabrics that people have that require a little more work than others to make it look like they want it to look and they don't have the skill set and they haven't invested the time. I also think makeup is something that you see your face a lot more and hair is easier to hide and or like put into a ponytail or something. So I don't know that a lot of people actually invest in the time it takes to learn how to do your hair, learn how to curl it. Like when I cast jobs with models that they have to curl their own hair I'm not joking half the time they've never held a curling iron. Like they don't know how to hold it and I'm like I forget that for a lot of people it's just not a a thought. They don't they have you know a dryer with no concentrator in the hotel just blow drying their hair and they that's what it is and that's fine. I do think makeup is a cheaper investment. So you can get like you know a three dollar concealer wait can you can dollar general dollar general you can versus like a hair tool a little more expensive. Takes a little more time takes a little more depends depends I'm gonna put a wig on you and see if you can blow out your own hair. I'm already wearing a wig what wig have you heard of um there's a new trend on TikTok where people are doing a hairstyle that they're calling the partless slick back. It's just a ponytail but Gen Z has or Gen Alpha has so instead of having a partless slick part they're just combing it straight back. They're just putting their hair in a ponytail and they're like it this is a partless slick back. This is one of those things where I'm like you've never read a book watched a movie been out the house touched grass like how is everything guys I'm into this new thing new trends. It's embarrassing are you not embarrassed into that meme it's embarrassing. It's kind of like I think it was Vogue that put that put the cloud bob no that was egregious. But I'm thinking about the person who wrote it maybe does not understand or maybe they were just like innocently being like we can just call this cloud bob. This is gonna continue to happen. It will continue to happen over and over and I think that it's a shame considering we live in a world of where media is so readily available. People don't know references anymore. It's really funny None. If you for the gays watching when you watch Drag Race you see like these later seasons they don't know a lot of the references Rue pulls from because Rue's from like 1846. So they're like I don't know who the fuck Cher is but it's like I grew up watching VH1 and so I had exposure to like I love the 70s I love the 80s I love the 90s that's how I know these things they educated us kids don't watch movies. They don't have the references anymore so anything that they come up with is so brand new to them and I'm like your mama was doing this back in like 1976 bro it keeps happening over and over to where someone will also an influencer has like five million views on this video like you guys I just invented this new look and I'm like oh my god that is just flat iron sticks right here or like chunky highlights. I think you're right about that because I've always thought my boyfriend's 29 uh 12 years younger than me and so he doesn't always look go know the references but to your point I think that also the way we grew up we got that last tail end of like cable television where it's like I love the 90s I love the 80s I love the 70s and so sometimes like I know the I'm like how do I know these references like how do I know this like I think also back then you know the way we consumed media was different. So it's like you would have reruns on the TV. You would have home video of old movies you would have all that versus now there's so much new content that I think younger generations of people it's like there's so much to consume and there's social media that like they're not getting a lot of whatever happened. Well do you think it's like your worldview is shaped by your algorithm too. So it's like what you're consuming is now so shaped by algorithms that you're not going to be shown things that are on the outlier of what you normally watch. And I think sometimes it's almost cultural we're part of a diaspora so I feel like a lot of our experiences were like Americanizing us as much as possible. And I grew up in a military system and so living in Europe I had Sky TV which is British and then I had the American news channels so that was all I had and then we had this uh channels from Spain. So I'm growing up seeing all these things in the American one so I had a lot of exposure to different cultures throughout but then other people don't have that. And now it's like um you know the song Ventura Highway uh by uh Ventura Highway and it's like the guitar at the beginning it's a weird reference 70s song but it's the beginning guitar of Janet Jackson's song Uh Back on the Road again feeling kind of looking for the but the guitar in the beginning is from oh yes rock song I love knowing these references like and I love seeing it like a K-pop group just released one of my favorites La Seraphim released a song that samples La Macarena. People are like oh what song is that I'm like what part of it's also like I was raised in like a very multi-generational house and like my grandma exposed me to so much. So it's like growing up we had I think Turner Classic movies and also I forget what channel it was but they showed a lot of really old 70s 80s sitcoms so watching Three's company growing up watching Gilligan's Island with Bewitched like all these really old things and growing up in a house where it was also exposure to like what my mom grew up with I have the references down. Yeah that's actually a good point I I think a lot of it was my mom was 19 when she had me and I think when as we're growing up she would show me things that for were from her childhood and she was born in 65. So she would show me obviously things from Puerto Rico around that time and also like American culture at that time. So we did watch a lot of the same Disney movies that she watched what came out when she was little and like we watched a lot of the same media that she consumed so I think I got those references and then from our grandparents like we get things that they would listen to or watch and I was obsessed with Golden Girls. I still am still am I when I say I'm obsessed like I can win on a trivia team. Who are you out of the four? It depends on where I've been in my life I'm Dorothy I've been a Dorothy I can be Dorothy at work when I'm working I'm very Dorothy in my personal gay life I think I'm more Blanche Blanche. She was like the And then in my friendships I think I'm more Rose. You gave Sophia I'm the old lady picture it Brooklyn 1998 yeah yeah you're a little bit of you're I mean they're related so you're a little bit Sophia and Dorothy. Well I'll have to figure out what that means yeah what that's B Arthur and the mother right Sophia it's funny looking back though just like how prevalent queer culture was in a lot of these things too Golden Girl specifically the pilot episode had a gay I don't know if he was like a housemate or a helper or whatever he was their like um house helper yeah and then he was no longer there after that pilot looking back especially in the 80s and 70s I mean RAP disco but like that era of the worlds Sylvester may he rest in peace. You know what's interesting though is that I was watching Golden Girls in my like middle school, high school life I mean I would watch the reruns every day. They came on at uh 3 p.m on lifetime and again at again at 8 and then again at 10 I watched it every I would record them. I watched them over and over the crazy part about golden girls not to be on like a tangent around it it was so ahead of its time there was an episode around the HIV crisis and Sophia basically telling them like you can't be scared of someone that has HIV like I will help this person like because I Rose's blood got mixed up in the hospital and this is during the AIDS crisis it was a very real thing. They were showing golden girls like gay bars at this point you know there was an episode on that and then being like it's not a scary thing it's there's a line that she says in it Dorothy says to Rose she's like Rose has a meltdown she's like I'm a good person why would this happen to me she says AIDS is not a bad person's disease Rose that to say in the 80s on a national television show they had an they had an episode with Mario Lopez about immigration like and and getting kicked out of the country and like wanting to be for school they had an episode around around age discrimination and Rose not being able to get a job because she was too old for it. They had an episode around sexual harassment Blanche getting harassed at work by a man and and basically being told to get her promotion to sleep with him like that show was ahead of its time like it was it was truly ahead of its time I will say and I learned like watching that like really helped I think sort of frame like my view around queer culture in an in a very subversive way. Yeah ironically it was exposure to so I had a lot of I would watch Lifetime a lot growing up picture it Ramon It was a lifetime down wait wait so picture it Ramon 10 years old I'd wake up on weekend mornings and go watch Lifetime because from like 8 till 11 every hour was two episodes of I think it was Golden Girls, Will and Grays and I forgot what the nanny and it was me again 10 years old knitting watching all these very gay shows on Lifetime and that really shaped who I became today. I was lifetime down it was Lifetime Food Network and the weather channel on repeat the weather channel no the weather channel is Remember Storm Stories? Storm Story First of all anytime someone watches me on stage or watches my videos like oh how do you learn how to present I'm like watch the weather channel and Food Network and you will know exactly how to be a good presenter. Because the Weather Channel are scientists that are breaking down scientific information for you in a way that's entertainment and engaging and a way you can understand. And Food Network same thing they're teaching you skills that they have learned years to do and they teach it in an entertaining way while telling you stories and you want to you feel you can do it too. That for me is a perfect blend of like what education educement as I call it should look like education. Education also queer stories Food Network queer icon Einegarten Dream Podcast guest hello and also two shots of vodka oh seven who is married to Cuomo boo but I don't think they're together anymore not anymore. So second dream podcast guest left his ass she really did um no it's really funny like being this age range is like how influential TV was to us and I really shape two became like in terms of shape two we became in terms of being like queer individuals. The first like time I saw RuPaul I didn't even know what to think about RuPaul. RuPaul was in the Brady Bunch movie as the counselor. But you want to Oh my god the Brady Bunch movie is so good. So good it's it's a gay movie. It's literally camp it's camp pure drag yeah one of my favorite RuPaul stories and this is me older but um my dad my best friend let him down um I started watching Drag Race when I was 15 years old this was season two was still airing live and I remember my dad would watch it with well he'd be in the same room as me. He'd be on his iPad and then one day he looks up and he's like what are we watching? And I'm like oh it's drag race he's like this isn't drag racing what is this and I'm like explaining it to him and he's like oh it's like top model but with drag queen so I'm like you get a reference and then he looks and mind you this was 2011 so this is when queens were using breastplates. So he just goes so these are guys and I'm like yeah he's like but why do they got titties though? And I was like let me show you um so what have they got titties but no RuPaul again one of those really odd iconic figures that really I grew up with RuPaul from his really early days in like radio and uh like TV show to then seeing drag race come out. I mean watching Supermodel that music video I was so little watching it and I was like what is this? Like I'm obsessed with it like I love it. It just looked so liberating and freeing and like it was everything that I was told not to be because I've been called gay and feminine since I can remember being alive. So I was like oh that's so much and then I honestly another one is Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman was like very popular basketball player but then his hair was bleached and he had the piercings and there's that photo of him in the wedding dress and I was like whoa like this is crazy like I've never seen I didn't know men could do these things like that really shaped me and then of course as we get older we had Will and Grace and and granted it was a very narrow version of what a gay person is but honestly I know a lot of jacks like I know a lot of them they all exist so it was like very interesting to like have that shape like our view of what that can be. One of my favorite movies about I guess queerness is have you ever seen going back to RuPaul um but I'm a cheerleader of course that's gay canon. If you have not watched PSA if you are in your 20s and you have not seen But I'm a cheerleader please after you're done watching this subscribe comment like and comment and share with two friends go and uh watch it also get back to us. Weird like sub-mute reference if you watched Avatar the last airbender and Zuko's voice did a lot for you the actor that plays him is also in But I'm a Cheerleader and that did a lot for me as well. There you go. So David who who was your gay awakening before we go you know or what was or what honestly well first it's it's weird to say this but I remember in um when I was in kindergarten we got a group photo of the class and it came back and I was sitting in the car with my mom and just like oh is there are there any is there anyone you like you know you talk to your kids like that it's like kind of weird honestly and anyone you like and I pointed to a boy and my mom was like you can't like a boy and I was like what like I was so like what like what do you mean so that was like my first thing and then my real gay awakening was I'm catalog culture down. The JC Penny catalog men's underwear section was my Bible it was my reason for living at moments in time of my life. Your mom would be like why are these pages sticky? It was I would take that catalog as soon as it came and I would deliver it straight to my room and then to my bathroom it was my everything that cat those underwear catalogs and then there was a website called internationalmail.com that sold like sassy men's clothing didn't res for circuit gaze at the time this was like what 2000 the year 2000 that website showed me men's in mesh underwear I was like oh this is this is everything this is everything for me and uh a funny story about that I thought it was a good idea to print these photos on our family computer while my family was at Red Lobster fancy dinner and it was the day before Easter Saturday night and my parents came home so I canceled the print job erased everything and then you know went to bed and the next morning I went I guess however I canceled the print job when my mom went to finish the print job was still there was like oh let me just finish this print job so outprinted like 40 pictures of guys in their underwear naked guys and my mom wakes me up on my bed and she's like hey good morning what's this it's just like 40 printed pictures of guys wait I just want to understand why were you burning through your family's ink like that's the desperate toner cartridge I'm desperate you guys would understand you guys don't know you didn't grow up with we would understand because maybe you see on your phone I need I needed to look at it somewhere else there have been many a young queer person who has been betrayed by the family computer history computer show me something gay and naked exactly literally well thank you so much for coming thank you you guys thank you thank you thank you in the comment section tell us your gay awakening I want to know also we're gonna put all of David's socials in the description please give us a like a comment a subscription a five star review do the affirmative thing wherever you get divine skintervention be an ally be an ally bye