Fragrance and Identity; What Your Scent Says About You (w/ Derek Deng)

This week’s episode features a highly anticipated Heavenly Thottie! Derek Deng graces us with his presence, his wisdom, and his THOROUGH research on what each gay archetype smells like. Known for his various matrices that touch on several aspects of the queer community: what scents they reach for, what cocktails they drink, what lip balms they prefer, etc. In this episode, he breaks down the overarching trends that define the various niche representations in the LGBTQIA+ community!

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Follow Derek!
https://www.instagram.com/derekdengg/
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https://thetastefultwink.substack.com/

Ramón
https://www.instagram.com/glowbyramon/
https://www.tiktok.com/@glowbyramon
https://www.youtube.com/glowbyramon

Angelo
https://www.instagram.com/dermangelo
https://www.tiktok.com/@dermangelo
https://www.youtube.com/dermangelo

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hi Ramon.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Hi Angelo.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Okay, I want to start out today by talking about the the three T's. We need the T on trade and twinks.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

I thought the third one was gonna be like tops.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Don't get too excited. Um The reason I bring this up is because I feel that in culture and on the internet there has been misuse of both twink and trade, and that we're kind of getting away from their roots. Have you noticed this?

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Well, yes, because first of all, people outgrow the word twink and they don't want to let it go, so then what we consider a twink ends up becoming a lot more skewed. But then when it comes to trade, people don't know what trade is, and not everyone and not everything is trade. Trade it has a very specific definition. You have to check all the boxes to be considered trade, and I'm sorry, sweetie, but you're not giving trade.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah. Let's let's start with trade. So for those of you who don't know, trade is a term that came out of the queer community, and essentially it means uh uh a guy who would, you know, come around the establishments or maybe um try to sleep with some of the girls who was d basically living a straight life and was DL in a way. DL is another word that's that's overused in a way and is losing its meaning. Now people are using it just to mean like any guy that they think is hot.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Yeah. Cause I mean, like now, like anytime someone gives any any little bit of butch master like, oh girl, you serving trade. And it's like, how are you serving trade with a belly button ring? That's not a thing. But yeah, to your point, it's like it was back in the day the guys who they didn't identify or like see themselves as gay, but they still liked to dabble.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, whether the boys or the dolls or some rough trade. Mm-hmm. So I mean, yeah, I think that's a little bit overused. And then Twink, which unfortunately I've been called for years, even still. I I've aged out of that label, but people still throw it at me. I think the problem with Twink is that straight people got to it. Sorry, straight people.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Well, no, you're saying now people have basically not even reclaimed Twink, but they've taken what Twink is, and they basically it's like half a degree of separation away from being a slur at this point. Like, oh, he's giving Twink, and it's like you just mean the F-word at that point.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah. So define Twink for us. Computer. Computer.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Define Twink.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

It's it's one of those things that if if you see it, you know it. Typically, it's like a younger.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

A young, slim gay man, or hey, that doesn't make sense. A young, slim gay man, generally uh barely legal appearing and also like hairless.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

So yeah, that was uh uh initially what twink meant, like a twinkie. Um cream-filled. Dowie. Smooth. But anyway, yeah, so that's where it started, and now straight people have gotten to it. I even saw a comment on a video about this recently where this uh commenter said that one of their friends was calling her ex-boyfriend a demon twink. Just using the word twink as a derogatory term is yeah, basically it's like you're using it as a stand-in for the F Sler. And what people don't know when they say demon twink is that there's actually a historical reference behind Demon Twink.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

You're gonna tell me this. What is this?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Okay, so Demon Twink originated online referring to one very specific person. This is from a few years ago, but on one of Ty Sunderland's boat parties that happens in the summer. So who this is a uh a party promoter in New York, and they do boat parties in the summer, um, usually themed around like a particular part a pop part star. Usually themed around a particular pop star. So there's like uh it's Britney boat, like it's a boat that goes around Manhattan and it's a party. Um basically there was this twink at one of the parties who I guess was overserved or what have you, and was being a menace, including climbing into the DJ booth, terrorizing people, etc. And somebody took photos of him and put them online and tweeted about oh, there's a demon twink here, terrorizing everybody, and they couldn't throw him off because it was a boat.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Literally, I just Googled it. The tweet from Tyson Sunderland, there is a demon all caps, twink on Britney boat last night. Oh my god, that's crazy. I'm trying to look for a photo of him though.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yeah, so that's where the term demon twink comes from, and now straight people are using it to just describe guys they don't like.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

I mean, let's be honest here. Sometimes demon twink in itself is a very redundant phrase. Because some of the twinks nowadays Gremlins. Menace, demonic.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

But yeah, that's the origin of demon twink. Straight people, I don't think that you should be using the word to talk about anybody who's like not a specific kind of gay guy.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Yeah, unless you have an actually gay relative, you should not be like commodifying the word twink. Twink is to you guys what DL trade is to us, apparently. We don't know what it means. But not everyone is a twink. Not everyone is trade.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Exactly. So if those words are in your vocabulary, make sure you're using them correctly.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Period.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Well, yeah, I also think this goes back to a lot of the the vernacular that we have now, like if you trace it back far enough, it goes into the queer community and quite often comes from like black trans women and then gets appropriated and appropriated and appropriated until it starts losing its meaning.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

So, and I've talked about this before. I think one of the reasons this happens is because back in the day, if you were like an OG OG stan, drag race was actually somewhat of an educational medium where they really tried to incorporate and educate on a lot of like old school, um, like original gay concepts, vernacular, gay history basically. Um that's where the origins of boots came from. Because if you know or no, not even boots. You know your boots. The house down boots. Yeah, the house, the house down boots. I remember I learned that from Manila Luzon on season three of Drag Race, and how it's now evolved to just be boots. Yeah. Boots, mama.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Now pop stars are saying boots.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

But um, you know, that was the whole thing where they they use trade so often, and because people who are not in, especially like again, the black trans community, queer community, um, they just hear these words and they're like, oh my god, I love that word. Let me just start using it now. And I'm like, but you don't know, you don't know. You don't know.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Throughout, yeah, throughout the the last few decades, we could trace so many of these, not just boots, but shade, tea, clock, the this thing, all of that is.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Which everyone does wrong.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yeah, it's like a lot of it came from black trans people, um, ball culture, ballroom.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

The ball.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

The ball. Um, I will never forget when one of my gay friends who had just come out, this was like years ago, but we were talking about he insulted somebody and he was like, I threw my shades at them. And I was like, are you trying to say that you you threw shade? And they're like, they're like, no, I threw my gentle monsters at them. Yeah, I was I was But yeah, honestly, I think a lot of people don't recognize where a lot of this slang comes from.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

And can I give my old head opinion? Yes. Um, we've lost the meaning and the plot behind pride. And I think the Gen Zers, like the worst people about this, and I'm like, I'm I'm young, so this comes as a result of just, I guess. I grew up sort of not surrounded by the culture, but I just grew up very involved in pop culture history. And people don't know the origins, the meaning, the significance of pride. They just think of pride as like this month where you can just like engage in like the craziest debauchery in the name of being gay. And we have completely lost the we have lost the plot of what pride celebration is supposed to be about. We forgot about the forefathers, four mothers, four peoples that paved the way for us to be able to have pride, and people just don't acknowledge that anymore.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Definitely. I think this is a whole different conversation, but there are a lot of um conservative queer voices, usually white guys, that are like, oh, like I don't identify with pride, I don't want to fly a rainbow flag and this and that. I'm like, okay, girl, save it because clearly you don't know what pride is about. Even for me, I'm like, most of the time, if I'm doing something for for pride, it's like I'm walking the queer liberation march, I'm doing something like that. Obviously, party, kiki, do all that. It's a celebration too, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Sometimes it does it affect not affect you, does it hit you that's like, oh, I'm like a very openly queer individual in this very specific space that we exist in? It's like we're very STEM focused. And it's funny when you I go to AAD or I went to AAD this year, and I'm like, there's a lot of gay derms, but there's like not a lot of gay chemists that I know of. And so it's gaggy to me. I remember I was at Suppliers Day two years ago, this boy walked up to me, Latino boy, full beat, full glam at Suppliers Day. He's like, Oh, I chose to pursue this career because of you. And I was like, What? So I was like, Oh, that's so cute. It's like, yeah, you don't realize, like, oh, I'm like very openly queer. Like, my whole content's not like I'm gay, but I exist so openly as who I am in this field that I'm like, oh, little boys that like are like me see it, and they like want to pursue it now.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

An icon, a legend, a role model. It is pretty gaggy. Yeah, like even at the AAD when people tell me, like, I want to do like what you do, like, girl.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

You can't serve like this, mama.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Oh no, no, I'm like be solid in your your medical career first and then see about it because you know, it's not as glamorous as it looks, even though it's great. Um, yeah. I think part of the visibility is showing up as you are, even when it's not pride, but also realizing what pride is about and remembering that nobody died at Stonewall.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Contrary to popular belief.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Um catch that reference, let us know in the comments.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

But I hemmed this. Um, what is your favorite like gay history thing that you like telling people about?

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Ooh. You know, uh I I think the the myth of Stonewall gets really kind of muddied, and everybody's like, this person threw the first brick, this person threw the first brick. We don't know who threw the first brick.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Someone died.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Some nobody died at Stonewall, actually, and I think the riot went on for like two days or something. And also the fact that um the mafia was very involved in gay bars in in New York back then. Yeah, so it's like a lot of um uh yeah, the the gay bars were paying protection to crime families like the Italian mafia, and because of that, that's kind of what kept the cops out of the bars most of the time. Um because it was there was an understanding. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Was there like a weird mutual support between the communities or yeah. Yeah, well.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Well, no, not necessarily well, like, I mean, you know, mafia is like not necessarily like, you know, the best parts of Italian American culture, but also it's like I don't think these crime families were there to like support queer people. It was more to, you know, make money off of people who were marginalized or, you know, establishments that were seen as doing illegal things. So yeah, I think a lot of people don't know what that's all steeped in.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

We should have a gay historian on.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

We should. Well, also the the fight for queer rights goes like way, way back, like pre-Stonwall. The reason Stonewall is brought up again and again is that in the United States, like what we typically think of as like pride was started as a a commemoration of the Stonewall riots the year after.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

I love how yours is actually like a very deep fact. Mine's just explaining what the Hanky Code is. Oh, oh I love the Hanky Code. Just in the context of I always tell people because being queer was such an underground secret, you really had to like be very hush-hush about everything. We developed these languages, these codes, this whole ecosystem of like existing in the subversive culture, and that we all knew certain things about it. So like the Hanky Code. I remember the first time I knew about it, but the first time I really had to come face to face with it was I was in Seattle. And if you know Seattle, I would park on Capitol Hill, which was the Gabor Hood, and I would walk all the way down to downtown because I worked at the Pike Place Starbucks in Pike Place Market. I didn't know about that. Wow. Yeah, that's when I passed lives. But walking down the street, I was walking down Olive. Um, I see this guy, and he had a red handkerchief hanging out of, I think it was his right pocket, or maybe and so I'm like, wait. A hanky code, look it up. Fisting.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

And I feel like there's oh god, I wish someone had fitted. It's not that kind of podcast. Come on. So we have another Heavenly Thotty with us today. You've probably seen him on social media talking all things, gay community, in terms of what scent are we wearing? What perfumes are the twinks loving? What is the DL top smell? Today we have Derek Dang. Hi. So what first of all, tell us your background, what you do, what you do for work.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yes. So I'm a beauty editor. I'm the only living twink beauty editor. People have started calling me the fragrance bottom. Which someone came up to me at a club in Williamsburg and I was like, are you the fragrance bottom? And I was like, You're not even gay, but like, yeah. Like, yeah, that is me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Well, I see a handle change incoming. The fragrance bottom.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

We'll see.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

That might be a little much.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

I'm actually a top. You're not even gay. Yeah, I'm not gay. I'm an ally. Ally. I respect the agenda.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yeah, so I think you came to our awareness because you did the first initial matrix. Was that lip balm or was it fragrance?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

It was fragrance.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

How many, how many of these have you done? You've done fragrance, you've done lip balm, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Gay fragrance matrix. Um, lip balm matrix. I did a cocktail matrix. I like that one a lot. Um, I did a doll fragrance matrix. Um, working on a lesbian fragrance matrix. Ooh, nice. Yeah. We love a matrix.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

For those of you not familiar with Derek's content, we're gonna put all of his uh links in the description. These are very detailed matrices plotting um different identities and their preferences. And you really be in the lab because there's a lot of research that goes into this. How do you go about collecting the data? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

So do you want the whole origin story and like lore behind it? Absolutely. Okay, so I had this grinder hookup, okay, and I went over to his apartment. It was okay, he had like navy bed sheets, you know the vibe. Like Was the mattress on the floor? Um, no. Oh. No. These are like that's it's New York trade we're talking about. Okay. But he was wearing Dior Sauvage, and it mingled really badly with his body odor. And I just like, you know what the thing was that like the D was actually fire, but the bad smells negated the fire D. And so it really did get me thinking about how much fragrance is tied to attraction. Because truly, like, it really is how you smell is your first subconscious impression of someone. Um, and so I started doing this series on TikTok where I asked people on Grinder, what's your signature sign? The more I did it, the more I realized that there were so many patterns. Like a lot of DL trade didn't wear any fragrance. The ones that did, it was either like Dior Sauvage or Jean-Paul Gauthier LeMail. People don't know this about me, but I majored in public policy at Duke. Like, I love like data and drawing conclusions from data. I like really like believe that like you can assume so much about someone based on like what fragrance they wear. And like I started like communicating these patterns and like people really resonated. I think like the gay community, especially, is a community that like number one is very like snobby and like especially in New York, the New York gays want to smell chic and expensive and cool and like niche, right? And so I think like gay men specifically really reach for fragrance as a way to communicate things about themselves. And so I've always been obsessed with like the political compass, and I was like, what if we did that with fragrance? And I think it's fun, I think it's cute, I think it's like a fun little game, and like even if you're not like a fem top but you wear a fem top fragrance, you're probably spiritually a fem top.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

That's deep. That is really deep.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Even for the girls, like the girls will see and they'll be like, I'm a fem bottom, and I'm like, yeah, you are.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

For me, like I this has this like overtone of like it's funny, it's silly, but I'm like, no, this is like in-depth, gay anthropological like studies you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

It really is, and no one else is doing the research. Like it kind of shocked me how little research there there is between the link between like queerness and fragrance. And even like I started polling like trans girls in my data, and it's so intriguing because the vast majority of the fragrances that the dolls wear are like really overtly feminine fragrances, fragrances that aren't ambiguous in like a La Lava way. Like they're very, like, they're just giving girl, like Burberry Goddess or Mugler alien, and like what I found was that they reach for fragrance as a way to reassert their femininity and like be more secure in their femininity.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Interesting. That's really cute. I didn't know you did a doll matrix. I mean, so for the like gay matrix, it's millennial, Gen Z. No, no, no. It's mass to thumb and top to bottom.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Okay, okay. What does the doll matrix look like? The doll matrix. Mask to fact. So I worked with my friend who is like a trans fashion editor, Z Z, and we wanted to take a more like abstract stab at it, so we did Alien to Barbie and Surge to Natch.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Because every doll falls into one of those four categories. Prove me wrong.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

You mentioned that for the doll matrix, they just lean, not aggressively feminine, but they really want to embody that feminine energy, that feminine power. Are there any parallels you notice between the doll and the gay matrix matrices?

SPEAKER_01 20:16

100%, yeah. Just like the dolls, like there's that very like category of gay guy that like really like he could be a fanboy, he could like maybe not, but like he like really does want to smell like a princess because he is a pillow princess and he's a little bratty. Sometimes I'm feeling him. Like, sometimes that's me, sometimes that's you. Um and I feel like like Delina, have you smelled Delina from Parfums de Marley? Yeah. That's what Snoop Dogg wears, actually.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Isn't that like really rose heavy or it's very rose heavy.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

It's Turkish rose with like white musk, and it just gives girl. It gives princess in a little pink castle, um, servants feeding her chia pudding.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Yeah, this is so funny, interesting to me because um, you know, obviously gender is a social construct, but it could say a lot about who we are. Yeah. Just the same way that like fragrances aren't really gendered, but in a way the social constructs around them kind of reinforce people's gender identity in some ways, sometimes, or they could absolutely not at all. Yeah. Like Snoop Dogg wearing Delena. Like, it sometimes people just like the way that things smell. So, in a way, it's almost like fragrance could mean different things to different people, but there definitely are trends. I feel like in beauty media and among a lot of editors, there isn't kind of this reverence for data. So I think that's maybe part of the reason that your uh content really caught my eye initially, because it's like you're actually doing data collection in a way. Like, what is that process like? Like are you just asking people? I saw you have like a form that people could fill out too.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Also for reference for the gay matrix, how many data points did you collect for that one?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Um it's like always like ongoing. Uh last time I checked, I had 4,800 answers in my Google form. Which is honestly a good amount. That's mama, let's do some research. Let's do some research. As Gina Rodriguez once said.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Let's research, Mama.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

There are actually a lot of uh published like survey studies in the medical literature that have less respondents than that. So that that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yeah. I mean, I don't consider myself like a statistician by any means. I took two stats class in college. They did teach me a good amount of things, but I think that like it's so important to like hone in, especially on like how queer people use fragrance because it's different than the way like a straight girl uses fragrance. Like I think that as gay guys or like any queer person, like we are so acutely aware of every little micro thing and how we navigate our life and how that plays into how we communicate our identity, right? Like I like was when I was in Brazil, I was like asking all the gay guys on Grinder what scent do you wear? And like what they would tell me was that like if they wanted to go to a club and like find a little twink, they would wear Dior Fahrenheit or Jean-Paul Gautier, right? But like if they wanted to be like a little bit of a bottom, but they wanted like a mask top, like they would go for a blue dishnel moment.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Interesting. Yeah. Well, it's so funny how things could be like different by region, too, because like blue de Chanel is I guess can be a little bit androgynous, but at least the marketing around it is very like masculine.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Whereas to me, it's like a half a degree separation away from Dior Sauvage. Like they live in the same world to me. Really? I do not like this take.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

What is it about Sauvage ran through it? It keeps coming up over and over again. And I mean that fragrance, I mean, kind of as a franchise is old. I don't know when the last time they reformulated it was, but I feel like it's really saying something, especially the marketing, the Johnny Depp of it all. Like, it doesn't strike me as something that like queer men would reach for. What do you think it is about it that like keeps it coming up again and again?

SPEAKER_01 24:23

So I could literally write a dissertation on this. Like, I Sauvage is so interesting to me. Like, I actually like objectively, like the fragrance is very well composed. It's created by this very famous perfumer that worked on a lot of Dior's like well-known perfumes that I actually like. But I think like its reputation has kind of been tarnished by the people that we associate it with, right? And I think number one is that like Sauvage is kind of an entry to luxury for a lot of people. Like for a lot of boys, um, straight or gay, like it's the first fragrance they buy because it's it's very visible, it's very known, it's relatively affordable compared to like niche perfumes. So I did a statistical breakdown of like the sexual positions of the people that were duar salvage, and I believe it's about 71% top, which is so intriguing because like Tom Ford Lost Cherry is 69% bottom, right? So a lot of the guys that were DR salvage, a good chunk of them were like DL as well, and I think that they reach for salvage as a way to communicate like hyper masculinity because it really does have a strong projection, like it really does leave a trade central. Like you can like smell it in there and you can be like, trade was here.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Do you usually collect age data too? Yes. Okay, do have you seen, and I know this is off the top of your head, like a sort of trend with like younger guys wearing sauvage a little bit more since it's like that entry point.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

So the age range for sauvage specifically, like really varies, like it's kind of all over the place. Um, but I think like it definitely like skews top. I think the median age was around like 26, but then I also had like people that were like 48, but also 18 were right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Interesting. And then like also Lamal, that's like another one that's like a classic, but that comes up again and again too, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah, yeah. I it's I think it's like kind of parallel to Dior Sauvage, like it's production is incredibly strong, like it is a trade identifier, um, and it lingers, it's everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

So do you see trends like okay, for instance, that's like Francis Kirk de Jeanne's like big one that he did. Do certain perfumers come up again and again?

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yes. That's a good question. There's the guy that created Santal 33, I believe is the same guy that created Tainoir 29, um, the same perfumer. Like, I he's created a lot of other fragrances, but I think the way that he constructs fragrances is like they're a lot, like they're kind of ambiguous. Like they like always have this certain cult appeal that like they're like there's like one note that makes them special, but everything else like accumulates to a very specific vibe, but also it's like a little ambiguous and it's kind of what you make of it. But I wonder if he's a gay guy. I don't know. Mama, let's do some research.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

As I've been getting more into fragrance, I've been more interested in like rather than looking at a fragrance house or brand, really looking at the people behind it and trying to see signatures. Yeah. So that's why I'm like, okay, yeah, Francis Kirk Dijon is behind Lamal, but also all of the New Dior fragrances, and then obviously his own stuff. So there are certain people that I feel like have an outsize influence in what we're all wearing, and I believe he's gay. So to look at how maybe queer people might relate to fragrances created by other queer people is interesting in a way. Part of Tom Ford, the person's legacy, is really like putting sex back into fashion in a way. The sensuality, like I think most of most of those fragrances, it's like they're not really made to make you think, they're made to make you feel something. Um, and they're supposed to be attractive.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Right, like ombre leather is this like rich daddy that will fly you out, right? And then Lost Cherry is for the bottom who's getting flown out. If you also look at the fragrance campaigns that Tom Ford does, like in the past and present, like they're very overtly sexual. Like they'll put like a fragrance like in the the bulge or like between the breasts. Like they're very sexual. And the gays love that. I don't think the gays want a brand that like is like this is a gay guy or like this is for the gay guys. I think we want things that like feel queer coded.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

I remember the one ad of the yeah, the fragrance bottle cover in the booty hole. Exactly. Yes, right in the cheeks.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

That's on a mood border too.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

That's twing chic.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

But kind of going back to like how the matrix exist like exists and what trends you've noticed, and the fact that now you have multiple, because we talked about cocktails, lip balms, all these things. Are you noticing like specific overarching trends that really define the subcategories of queer people? Overarching trends in the fragrance, specifically. And it beyond through all the matrixes, matrices at this point. It's like, oh, like a DL top loves this kind of scent, this kind of lip balm, and this kind of cocktail, and all these things have a connecting factor.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

100%. I well, number one, I'm gonna start with fragrance. La Labo, another 13. I don't know why, but that scent has such a chokehold on the gay guys. What's the profile for that one? Yeah. Umbroxen, there's a little bit of musk, um, ISOE super. It's a lot of those like transparent scent molecules. And I did like the top, bottom versus breakdown for another 13, and it's actually split pretty evenly, which doesn't happen with most fragrances because the tops love their salvage or Jean Pagautier, right? But like literally, like, that's the one thing that unites the gay people, even the lesbians. Gay guys and lesbians can't agree on anything except like ribs by lord. Like I said what I said. And then how does that then carry over into like cocktails, for example? Yeah, so I think the appeal of La Labo Node 13, like, I kind of describe it as like Unumat me scent because it kind of gives nothing but in a good way. It's it's very ambiguous, it belongs to everyone but no one at the same time. And it's kind of like what you make of it. It also like is attached to La Lava, which is this very like chic house that the gays already love. It has cultural capital. That is also something that's very important to gay guys, like the packaging and like the chicness. Like, how does it fit within the gay guy world? Like, how does it exist within the ecosystem of like a Balenciaga city bag, warm ambient lighting, and like a togo sofa, right? Like, I think like the necessary lip balm, for example. Gay guys love that. Really?

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Oh, I didn't know they had lip balms when I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Oh girl, get on it. I'm wearing it right now. It's so twink chic. It has this little like stainless steel tip. It has a very subtle scent. It's a little minty, and it leaves a beautiful finish. It's nourishing, and the packaging is so chic. It fits perfectly in my Balenciaga City bag.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

You just said twink chic, and I noticed a new series that you're doing about things that are twink chic. What makes something twink chic?

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Okay, well, number one, I like I feel like I just like put twink in front of things and make them a thing. So that's what Twink chic started as. What makes something twink chic? Okay, like imagine if Haley Bieber was a twink that lived in Bushwick, or maybe Williamsburg. What would she approve of and what what would she not approve of? That's what makes something twink chic. Like that I think that's an easy hypothetical. What would Twink Haley Bieber do?

SPEAKER_02 31:51

But then I feel like that in itself, it's like as someone who lives Williamsburg adjacent, it's such a specific bubble of culture there. But I'm like, is that applicable nationwide? Like, are the twinks in Dallas and the Twinks in Atlantis and the Twinks in Des Moines, Iowa, do they adhere to the same kind of Twink chic, or is it region specific?

SPEAKER_01 32:12

I mean, I I'm not the authority on Twink Sheik, although I can't. You created it! Sorry, I am. Um It's a developing story. Exactly. Um, I don't know. I think we're working that out. I think that like all the gay guys in like the suburbs and like middle America, like they idealize this like gay New York life. Like it is what we look up to. Like when I was growing up in the suburbs, like that was like what I was like aiming towards. And so I do think that like gay guys everywhere, like even like outside of America, like they do kind of idealize a certain New York gay guy life.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

No, my only criticism of the Williamsburg thing was just again, Williamsburg is so specific in that little bubble. It's like the Williamsburg gay twink and the Bushwick gay twink. Very different world, and especially across the bridge into Manhattan is very different than the Chelsea gay twink.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

I'm still stuck on Hailey Bieber. I love her down. I could write an essay about how much I love Hayley Bieber. Do you have a Substack?

unknown 33:06

I do.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Okay, I need to subscribe because I'm like, I keep seeing these things. I'm like, I would read that. Yeah. I need to read that. Let's talk about Hailey Bieber.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Okay, let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Talk about things about her. I don't aspire to be a white girl. I've said this before.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yeah, we've talked about her on the podcast, and I've said that um she is a very smart businesswoman, and I've described the ways that I think that Road is a very successful psy-op.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Yeah. Okay, so we know Road is great business. She did her thing. Outside of that, I think working in media has made me realize the impact that Hailey Bieber has on trends and how people buy things. Like it is actually crazy, and I think it's because she strikes this middle ground between achievable and aspirational, right? Like she can wear a blazer with tights and like kitten heels, and it's a little basic, but she'll do it in the most elevated way possible. And the next day, the girls are wearing blazers with tights and kitten heels. She did her little like face mask with the fork thing or the comb. Then the girl said the face mask with the comb. I don't know, that was kind of funny. Like it people are sheep, is what I've realized. And Haley Bieber is the sheep herder, and I kind of respect that. Like I really do recognize the influence that she has on like glazed nails. You know, like it's like every publication covers every one of her manicures, and it's kind of crazy the ripple effect that it has on everything.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Yeah, one of the things that we spoke about was she was playing the long game even before Road came out and was able to make herself a trendsetter, and part of that was being able to court media in a way to report on everything that she did beauty-wise. Yeah. What was in her skincare routine? What did her nails look like? Etc. etc. And part of the reason why I think Road is a psyop was you can see uh her team breadcrumbing the media, but also her trying to get in with people within the beauty industry even before we knew about the skincare line and really infiltrating it. So I think all of that is purposeful. Yeah, she has the mind of a mastermind. Changing gears a little bit, we both brought like a signature fragrance that we want you to evaluate and maybe see where we would fall on the matrix. Ramon, do you want to go first?

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah, I brought two because I'm an overachiever. Oh god. Um, are we like telling you beforehand like what the vibe is or what they are? Are we just like blind having you smell them? I'll just smell them. Okay, I brought two because different occasions.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Okay, let's do a little sniff. Okay. Okay, so starting with Penhalligan's Mr. Sam. That name is already giving top. Like Sam. No, like Sam is a daddy. He's clean cut.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

And he's Mr. Sam.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Mr. Sam. Yeah. Um, I love this little packaging. That's that's very top already. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's do a little spray. 48-year-old mask top that doesn't play about his little twink.

unknown 36:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

That's what you're giving, Ramon.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Okay. Depends on the mood. This is my I like this for fall, winter. Okay. A nice dinner. We like to go to like cocktail bars, that kind of thing. Yeah. That's like one of my preferred.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yeah. It's very like, like, I already know what's on his vanity. Like, he has been using Keels for like 30 years. We love Keels. I I'm sensing a world. Like he, his house is like a lot of warm wood, and then maybe he has like, what is that thing? When people have like animals hanging.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Taxidermy.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

He doesn't play about his taxidermy girl. So that's Mr. Sam. Next we have.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

I forget what the name of that is. It's from a brand called Airs. I bought it in Seoul.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

AirS? Okay. We love Korean fragrance. Verse tote bag bottom. Verse tote bag bottom. Yeah. Like maybe a New Yorker canvas tote bag. This is like very like a cleaner skin scent. Like this Twink does not play about doing his laundry every four days. Like he has a regimen.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

That's my summer scent. Wow. Or like spring summer. Something more light. I would have worn that today, but I'm playing with some other stuff.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

How often do you do your laundry?

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Not as often as I should.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

You should you should try to be whatever this guy's name is.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

I feel like Mr. Sam goes along with uh your style where you talk about you dress like an old man.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Yeah. But I don't dress like a not today. I don't dress like a 48-year-old top is the thing. I don't think you'll clock me on the street and be like, that's a top.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

But spiritually, are you ever a 48-year-old top? No. Really?

SPEAKER_02 37:41

No. And actually, I'm mad I don't have it. I have a different Penhaligan. That's like my favorite scent house. Um, it's called Yasmin. Ooh. And I think when I first met you, I was wearing something more adjacent to that. I like a more like vanilla with like a pink pepper accent to it.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

But I I think it's so beautiful when people don't like stick to their quadrant. Like I think it's so attractive when a really masked guy wears a really fun scent. Because it shows that he like isn't trying to prove anything about himself. And that to me is so sexy.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

I mean, I love versatility and scent. I have many moods.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Yeah. You gotta have that fragrance wardrobe for your different moods. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

First in bed, versed in life. Exactly. Okay, a Birato moment. Which one's this one? 11th Hour. Oh, I haven't seen it. So Byreto already is a brand that's apparently very popular among the gay millennials. Okay. So they don't play about Byreto. Well hit me. 11th Hour. Okay. That's Williamsburg, baby.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

I haven't even smelled this ones yet.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

I feel like the scents I tend to go for, I like spice. Um, I like a little bit of sweetness every now and again. And with this, it's like it almost feels witchy to me. Like I have so many fragrances, but when I don't know what to wear, this one that I put on.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

No, I love it. So that's chic. That's twink chic. I have you ever been into one of those like furniture stores in Brooklyn where it's like you walk in and it's kind of intimidating and they're a little they're a little snarky, but they have really chic, like minimalist, sleek furniture options with some like vintage touches. And the walls have a very certain like wash to it. Yeah that would be featured in architectural digest. Like the employees there wear that and they pair it with their like linen tunics.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Their linen tunics.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

This smells like it smells like potpourri to me. Somewhat apply potpourri. Maybe femme top. Femme top.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

I think, yeah. When I look at um like reviews of this online, like looking at fragrantica and everything, like it's a very polarizing scent. Um, a lot of people feel like it's like too sweet, other people say it's too spicy, some people said it smells like vomit, like, which I'm like, uh I don't think it smells like vomit.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

No. No.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

It smells good.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

It smells really nice. It's it does have that really like spiced warm element to it. I was looking at the fragrance note, so it's like wild fig. There's uh tonka beans, cashmere woods, rum, carrot seed, bergamot. I don't know what this is big. The lesbians would eat this on. Two more? Bireto has another one that smells exactly like carrot cake. Oh, okay. No, it really does. It smells so good. Those two live in the same world to me. Of like this like warmth, but like spiced.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

No, I love the warmth. That's a beautiful scent.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

And a sweet Byreto. Um, no, that's beautiful. Femme top, very lesbian, too.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Do you feel like you have a signature scent, or are you the type to like switch things out? I'm assuming you have a good collection there.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

I mean, it's a collection. It's it's a lot. Um, it's a little overwhelming. Um, I have like three fragrance cabinets and two fragrance platters. I have a storage unit. I have a little thingy for my fragrances. I want to be the type of twink that has a signature scent. However, I am a beauty editor and my job is talking about different fragrances. So I am always experimenting. I do feel like I have signature scents for like different functions. Like, if I want to go out and attract the trade, I pair YSL Baby Cat with Tom Ford Ombre Leather because I think it's like this really chic bourbony vanilla paired with a spicy, leathery, daddy scent, and I like the contrast that it gives me. Like, I think that juxtaposition is very sexy and it makes me feel confident, and the trade comes to me. So that's my like signature going out scent.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

As someone who like you work as a beauty editor, you have this like wide variety of fragrances you're exposed to. Is what are your thoughts right now on like the very fruit forward fragrance trend? And where does that fit in like the matrix? Because right now it's like what banana note is like really popular.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

I don't that's the thing about the beauty industry is that they just like I feel like there's a rotating array of like trending fruits. Right? The trending fruits. Fruits rotate. Right, right. So like there was like cherry had her moment, yeah, figs had her moment, bananas are now having their moment, but in the earlier part of the year, like raspberries and like more like juicy fruits were having their moment. Same with like ube in food, right? Like it's the same pattern, girl. I don't know. What do you guys think is gonna be the next fruit? Kiwi. Ooh. Really? No. They're not like aesthetically pleasing. Actually, kiwi green is like, I feel like the Pinterest girls will like catch on to that, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

It's also like a very light crisp flavor note in itself. So I feel like, especially again, I like a bright summer fragrance. That can be a nice little thing for summer. Um, what do you see as the next what are you projecting to be the next big fragrance trend? Like, how big are we talking about? Like generational or like No no no no no, just like in like seasonal. I think for example, like fruit had its moment, and we're seeing this overarching trend of like let's cycle through all the fruits.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

It was after fruit.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

I think that there's going to be more like evolution of the tea scent. Um, I think that like in the West, most tea fragrances are very like a Western interpretation of tea. Like it'll be like a green tea with like a green note. Um, and it's very like one-dimensional. But we're seeing a lot of rise in like the Chinese fragrance space, and a lot of Korean fragrance brands are coming to America as well. Um, and they're doing tea notes in such intriguing ways. Like, I'm one of the scents that I'm wearing today is two summer triple tea, and it combines oolong tea and green tea. I don't know what the third one is. Body tea, rock tea, I think. Um and like it's so multidimensional. And also, like Estee Lauder has like started investing in Chinese fragrance brands, and I think that like they're they're like starting to expand to America very. slowly and I think it's gonna cause a ripple effect in like consumers wanting like more tea complex tea scents.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

That's so funny you say that my husband literally said the same thing like a day or two ago because for example last time we were in Seoul like a big focus for us is always let's go to the scent houses to see what they're doing. We went to nonfiction which now they have in Soho but his standout there is um white darjeeling was that tambourins or nonfiction? I think it's tambourine yeah yeah white darjeeling and he had the call out of no I think what happens in East Asia always ends up making its way over here and to your point like yeah that's kind of like the next big wave that could happen.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

I do think it it won't be like every like fragrance brand like I I do think some will be more successful than others because Asian people like speaking on behalf of all of them they have a different why behind why they wear fragrance. Like for them it's much more personal and intimate which is why when you go to Korea like tambourns especially like their scents have a very mild projection. Whereas in America like I feel like we want our scents to like be an extension of us and we want to leave that twink scent trail. But in Korea like a lot of their fragrances tend to follow like a similar pattern of like much more like personal and like intimate projection. But I think nonfiction does an amazing job at like balancing that and like integrating complex like Asian notes while also doing it in a way that is also palatable to the Americans.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

That's right have you gone to nonfiction yet?

SPEAKER_01 45:24

No, not yet you need to room sprays it's so tea there's literally one that's like black tea and leather it's called Lapsang song I put everyone on. It's the chicus room scent. Um so you've done this matrix you have thousands of data points what have been some of the most like out of pocket or the most like one-off out there fragrance like choice well number one is like when I first started doing this asking people on grinder it's like I don't think people realize that it wasn't a 100% success rate like half of the guys would just like send me explicit pictures which is what happens on grinder. Them holding their perfume next to no so yeah no literally I had one guy send a picture and he was like can you guess how big it is based on the perfume. You're like that's a travel size right yeah the travel size sampler it's a little vile um let me think something that has shocked me is like the like ubiquity of Glossier U specifically I don't know it was my first fragrance I ever bought for myself. I also feel like the first time I met you you talked a lot about that I no I love Glossier like I'm a Glossier twink born and bred like it that brand like was is the reason I work in beauty like I'm so intrigued by what they've done to the beauty industry um but it's so interesting to me how like it's it's one of the other scents that gay guys and lesbians agree on. Okay. But also like among them like each of the Glossier used because there's like five different versions of them I think or six um they attract very specific personas right like you do is this like woody spiritual trade scent um Williamsburg trait if you will um that's like the cream colored one and then you rev which is like the like plummy one it has notes of like plum butter it's very sapphic. The people that use it 70% are lesbians. Yeah but glossy you the OG is like everyone uses it but like gay guys and lesbians use it but the gay guys and lesbians that use it are all bottoms.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Oh not all bottoms but like 70% you know I think it's so interesting because um you are Gen Z, right? Yeah. I mean let me ask the audience but like the fact that yeah Glossier is looked at as such this like millennial phenomenon but it has had so many downstream effects just because of like you know the people that were first getting into beauty and growing up with it and all of that. And I also think we're seeing so many of the downstream effects of the idea behind you. The fact that it was like okay this is like a really intimate body sense musk forward like could be layered and then now it's like every brand almost I feel has their version of that. It made the skin set cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Yeah because you that's again the first time I met you that was your whole like your interest at that point was it was it based on Ambroxin is that the main sent note for that yeah and how you were seeing that start to make its way into other brands because then I think at that same time Noise had just launched their like milk deparfum and that was a big focus for their scent profile as well.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

So it's like yeah you had its moment and then all the brands started to be like oh we need that we need that yeah no and it's so intriguing because the millennials have Sound 33 sound 33 defined a generation right like it was the scent in New York at that time when like girls was airing I don't know I was in high school. Williamsburg smelled like that back at that time.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Yeah no that's no seriously it's like I would walk down the street and just smell it wafting off of people like everybody wore that fragrance.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Like right now Bacabar Rouge does that smell do you think so? I walk around and it's like I feel like it's not I want to say this nicely um I just feel like it became the scent for the everyone the common person that still doesn't sound good. The common person I think it's it's so expensive too yeah it just became like that was the it scent and so that's the one scent I will clock wafting off someone I'm like that's Bacabar Rouge.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Really? I think part of the reason for it is like the siage on it is crazy. It's super strong. Again Francis Kirchin give him his flowers because like I think that was also in a way yeah a trend defining fragrance or something that for a few years there I feel like it was the bad everywhere. Yeah exactly it's so characteristic I I think there are a lot of fragrances that you smell and like you know within your mind it disappears. Like it's like hearing a song on shuffle or something. Yeah and it doesn't stick with you but there are some songs that you're like once you hear it you can't unhear it. You cannot unsmell baccarat rouge like every time you smell it after that it's like even if you don't remember what it's called you're like I've smelled this before.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

I think every generation defining scent has like three things in common. So number one is it has an identifiable trail. Like you can smell it next to some like on some lady on the subway and you can be like you can clock that tea number two it has this certain like niche nicheness to it that's not actually niche. Like it's like known among people with taste but not necessarily people in like Minnesota. Right but but then like once once people catch on like now everyone's wearing it. Now people in Minnesota are wearing it. Sorry I love nine Minnesotans um is that what you call them it is that cerulean sweater in a way it's that cerulean sweater and then number three it has to embody some sort of like aspirational thing. Like I think Bakrat Rouge does a very good job of this like this is like the girl that like has a million Chanel bads and she like looks really good in a black dress and some Lou batons. So I wonder what Gen Zantel 33 is like what hits those three bullet points for Gen Z and I I fear it has to be a skin scent. Gen Z is the generation of skin scents.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Do you find that that's like a due to it's like being more subdued more minimalistic or do you still feel like there's a this level of a projection a standout no this level of like it still does stand out. Because I feel like we criticize a lot of Gen Z and it feels like you none of you ever want to stand out, be different.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

I think it just also goes back to the why behind fragrance, right? Like I think Gen Z really like we started to view fragrance as an extension of who we are like a cultural signifier as to like our vibe and our taste. And I think skin scents signify a certain like ambiguity that Gen Z loves to live in.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

That's my take. I mean it makes sense I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just like wanting to like make that point okay so it's just a blend in with the crowd smell. Yeah it's like it's like that one friend that like giggles at everything you say and she's like like she's everywhere people like her but she doesn't define the conversation you know she's not leading the charge. If she was a spice she'd be flower.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Exactly I'm kind of going on this end of like or this trend of you know blending in versatility ambiguity androgyny you've done the gay matrix you've done you're doing the lesbian matrix is there like a standout like non-binary scent profile or scent family that envies love?

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Skin scents. Little no but like they love skin scents more than anyone because it exists in that gray area and so do they right well no I mean like it's like they're like the way they navigate identity is very similar to how they navigate fragrance. Yeah. And like they also love another 13 but one that was really popular specifically is molecule 01 from eccentric molecules.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Yeah that's just all ISOE super isoe super and it's again like Unumami science it's what you make of it. You can't really smell it on yourself but other people smell it on you and it is like magnetizing. It's like supposed to be like synthetic woody in a way.

SPEAKER_02 53:22

And the lesbian matrix hasn't dropped yet right no it's coming though I need to do my research though. How are you how are you researching for the lesbian matrix are you going to Home Depot?

SPEAKER_01 53:31

I'm going to like Clara's comment section and just no I have data from my Google form but I need more lesbians to submit it so lesbians where are you at? Yeah come submit my Google form should just go to the lesbian bars here.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

No literally be like next episode I love a lesbian bar I will see it.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

Me too really we need more there's so much fun I get mistaken for a lesbian a lot I don't know why but I'll take it as a compliment.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Exactly I think it's my mullet. Yeah your family yeah okay so last question we've asked everyone this for the Pride episode what was your queer awakening your gay awakening the first time I realized I was gay or like what really solidified it for you?

SPEAKER_01 54:09

What really solidified it for me? What have other people said?

SPEAKER_02 54:13

My answer was you know the scene in White Chicks where she's laying on the beach and then she's like what happened to the sun and then she opens her eyes and Terry Kuz is standing right above her.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Yeah that way no he's so I I get that for real.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

A lot of millennials that we've asked have said um Casper the movie Devin Sawa who you don't even know who that is not clocking to me.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Yeah sorry to that man but we looked him up afterwards and honestly I still don't get it oh I know who it was I this is so niche I used to have the biggest crush did you ever did you guys ever watch Sweet Life of Zach and Cody? Yeah Esteban but I don't know I fully like loved London Tipton growing up because she was like the first like cunty Asian representation we saw on screen like all the representation was like the smart nerdy Asian but here she was being ditzy and glamorous and she had her moments of intelligence. She was a smart girl yeah there I think there was that one episode where they like had a little thing and I was like me that could be me.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

So Brenda Song was your gay awaken I love her.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

That's mother that's she's in something now she's married to that homological guy.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Yeah okay um but no like she's like having a career reawakening yeah like her in Hillary Duff.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Oh my god I'm so happy about the Hillary Duff Renaissance I'm a millennial when it comes to Hillary Duff I don't play about her you're transgenerational yeah exactly well Derek thank you so much for being here we're gonna list all of Derek's socials in the description as well as a link to his form so if you want to add a data point please do especially lesbians lesbians if you're watching and you want to contribute to this matrix we'll have Derek's form linked in our bios please contribute so we can know what the lesbian scent signature scents are. If you've enjoyed this episode give it like a thumbs up five star rating leave a comment whatever the affirmative thing is wherever you get divine skin intervention and we'll see you next time