Editorial Issues | Beauty Editors Speak Out (w/ Saleam Singleton & Larry Stansbury)

Before there was beauty social media, there was beauty editorial, and this week’s Heavenly Thotties spill all the tea on what goes into beauty editorial. Beauty & Style Editors Saleam Singleton & Larry Stansbury share what their career trajectories as beauty editors look like as some of the few Black, gay men in the editorial space, how their upbringings shaped their self care routines, and how they’ve seen the evolution of perspectives and presence of Black beauty representation in media. It’s a STACKED Divine Skintervention episode!

Follow Saleam!
https://www.instagram.com/themethodmale/
https://themethodmale.substack.com/

Follow Larry!
https://www.instagram.com/__larrbearrrr/
https://larrystansbury.substack.com/

Ramón
https://www.instagram.com/glowbyramon/
https://www.tiktok.com/@glowbyramon
https://www.youtube.com/glowbyramon

Angelo
https://www.instagram.com/dermangelo
https://www.tiktok.com/@dermangelo
https://www.youtube.com/dermangelo

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hi Angela. Hi, Ramon. Uh, those of you watching us, you can probably tell we've upgraded our setup a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Ooh, we're more official, thanks to you.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Thanks to viewers like you. Um, we have a great episode ahead of us, and it's gonna touch on editorial, which is really funny because Angela and I, we are video content creators. But I mean, I got into beauty first because of magazines that I'd read at the beauty salon.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Yeah, I mean, I think growing up in the 90s, it it was excuse me. I'm about there. Um, it really was such a thing. Um, just because like those glossies there was an element of uh I think glamour, luxury to one of them was called glamour. But yeah, it just having editors who were supposed to be the people in the know selecting what went in and what got talked about and what the trends were. Obviously, it was a much slower cycle than today.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

But that's the thing is to have a column in a magazine too, like you could be any kind of person and you would get you could get chosen to do a weekly hair advice column in a magazine. That was a big deal back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Yeah. And then you were Carrie Bradshaw.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Literally.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Who made an entire living off of that. Theoretically. Theoretically. That that's unrealistic.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

But no, I think back to so growing up, my mom, Mama Glow, uh, she would get her hair done every week. Wow. Every week, sometimes twice a week. That was her self-care. That's why to me, like, beauty is a big part of my life, because for my mom, her hair represented so much of who she was and everything. So sometimes twice a week, she would go to the beauty salon and I'd always come with her. And I would be reading all the magazines. But it was also like one of those like half hairstol and half barbershop moments. This is in Central Florida, it's a very Puerto Rican area. So yeah, I'd read all the like the fashion, the beauty magazines, and then all of like the male like hip-hop magazines too. Because that's where like the baddies were in them.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Ooh. Oh, oh, okay. I didn't have a ton of magazines around when I was growing up, but I remember my older sister, she's like about two years older than me. She was like a magazine addict in a way. It's like she would have 17 in this one and that one. Um, and sometimes Allure, which was interesting at the time, because like I don't I feel like there weren't a lot of beauty magazines back then. It was just like fashion magazines that had kind of a beauty section, which now would be like beauty and wellness or yeah, something like that. Do you read any magazines regularly anymore?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Not like for like a actual editorial focus. Because I feel like, unfortunately, ironically, so much of what I'd want to read from these publications are just available online now. So I'm buying magazines for like the pictures, like the editorials. Like I love a good fashion editorial. So especially if like Rihanna's in the f in the the issue, I will buy that issue. But no, my first magazine I bought myself because I'm like, I need this magazine, was the May 2009 issue of Vogue US. It was the model issue, and I still have that magazine.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

The model issue. Who was on the cover?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

So it was actually like one of those expandable covers. And this is like again, you have to be in you have to be into the fashion model world in this era, but it was like the supers of the time.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah, so no one that's actually like big, big now.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

But oh, you probably had your like Gemma was gone by then. She was okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah, so it was Dane. It was uh Natalia Vladyanova, Vladyanova, it was Anna Jagozinska and it was Lila Kabele.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

And then the full issue expanded out. There was Lara Stone. I am obsessed with Lara Stone.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

A gap, Mama.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

The gap. I actually had so many Vogue Paris issues with her on the cover. And I always go back to a lot of her photo shoots as references. She was like nasty. But like it seemed like a cunt way.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

You know, back in the day, around that time, uh, style.com was still there. So for those of you who don't know, style.com was, I mean, I I no, it's completely gone now, but it was a website owned by Conde Nast. And back when I was working in the fashion industry, it was very important because it was free and every single fashion show was posted there. And you could go through look by look and see everything. And, you know, working in styling, the reason that that was important was when you wanted to, you know, get in touch with a PR for uh a label to send you something, you would reference the looks. So you'd be like, okay, well, um, in this show, like, can I get like look 52 for my editorial? Um, and part of the way like I learned I know all these names is like back then they would put the model's name with each look. Um, and now uh style.com's gone. Uh they changed it into some sort of a shopping platform, and now there's Vogue Runway, which is essentially the same thing as style.com. They don't list the model's names anymore, but uh it's behind a paywall too. Uh capitalism. Yeah, but at Condé, they did a lot of things that just uh basically screwed up their move to digital, and I think they're still feeling it now.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

And I mean that was how many years ago?

SPEAKER_02 5:44

I mean, uh style.com, I think, was done in like 2014. They moved on from that. I mean, uh that industry is just like clutching on for dear life. And I think one of the things that we're gonna discuss in this episode is that um now why are you gonna go to a magazine for all of this stuff where you when you could just open up your phone and the editors are there?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

They are, and they're that's the thing, they're trying to figure out how to diversify, how to do their own things. I have a question though, because I mean this honestly does make a lot of sense, and yeah, the con the demise of Condana asked, honestly, do you think it has to do with like Anna Winter and just like the way she like has her claws still dug in so deep, and it's kind of like a there's no breath of fresh air in possibly.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

I mean, um I uh read a really good biography about Anna called Anna by Amy O'Dell. Shout out to Amy, she has a great podcast too. Um, but she really did chronicle sort of the uh way that they kind of like fudged up the whole move to digital over time because, especially at Vogue, Anna wasn't taking it seriously for a long time, and they would just put people in charge of the Vogue website, but they wanted it to be separate from the magazine so that you were getting something totally different, so that the magazine was uh, you know, protected in a way, and people would still feel like they wanted to subscribe and buy it, but at the same time, it couldn't be like style.com, which was really like the fashion person's website where you would go for all of the runway show reviews and things like that. So in the end, it had no identity, and then eventually they just made all of the bad decisions after that. So snowball effects, yeah. Uh, but I mean, I think another thing that uh the publishing industry is facing right now, and this has always been an issue, but I think I see it now more than ever, is just um editors, but also you know, the powers that be at these magazines capitulating to advertisers over and over again. So speaking of Vogue Runway, there are some brands for which they'll never give an outright bad review. Not saying that they won't be critical, but they will you could tell that they're holding back if they're critiquing one of their advertisers because they don't want those ad dollars pulled. And right now they're really fighting for their life for that money. So in a way, uh bias always comes into it, even in our line of work where you know you're talking about content creators and uh how we never get honest reviews anymore from people because they're afraid of being taken off the PR list or that like they may not get hired by certain brands. It's the same thing in publishing.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

I mean, at the end of the day, it's like to Angela's point, they're fighting to keep those advertisers, but those advertisers are like no one's reading the magazines anymore. Yeah. So it's like wasted money on the advertisers' part too. So it's like, what's the incentive of us continuously giving you money if yeah, people are it's not the ROI is not there.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

There you go. Last year there was a really uncomfortable interview that uh they were interviewing Chloe Mao, who basically took over for Anna Wentur with Anna there.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

And I think one of the most telling parts of it was they asked Chloe, okay, that if you had double the budget or if you had one of the budgets that was around to the 90s, what would you do? And props to her. The first thing that she said was, I would pay everybody 30% more. And then she said she would expand their social team. That's like the first thing. I think also uh part of her strategy going forward is that she wants to move the magazine to like not be monthly anymore, but to make each one very special, like something that you would want to save.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Because that's the thing, is I st every once in a while I still will buy Vogues and I had a privilege of living in Europe where it was I had access to UK, Vogue Italia, Vogue Paris. So I collected a lot of them. And again, that May 2009 issue I still have. So that'd be really cute and really make it like a capsule kind of collection, or like by the actual runway seasons.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah, yeah. I think it would make it more interesting, and then if they move the good editorial content online, though it feels out of touch a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

I mean, you have to meet people where they're at. Exactly. And where are they at scrolling while they sit on the toilet?

SPEAKER_02 10:33

In the middle of an affordability crisis.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Hi guys, we are joined today by two heavenly thoddies, and I'm very excited to have him on this episode. Please welcome Larry Stansbury and Salim Singleton.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Hey.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

They are both beauty editors, editors at large.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Beauty editors, editors at large, content creators, content creators, multi-hyphen, it's really.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

I want to consider myself as a journalist. I'm just saying like an editor.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Now, this, okay, not to jump right into it, but I have an issue with a lot of beauty publications where I'm like, there needs to be journalistic integrity on some of the stuff they're talking about when it comes to beauty topics, skin, etc. And I'm like, hey, some of the stuff that you're posting is scientifically trash. So what to the two of you, like, what's that delineation between being an editor and being a journalist?

SPEAKER_03 11:33

I feel like being a journalist is like you're reporting the news and like what's trending online. I feel like being an editor, you're just creating content for a specific outlet, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Well, I think a j a journalist has some level of uh training in journalism, the basics, AP style writing. Of course, you're you probably took your English classes. You you've studied the science and the art of writing in the journalism style, reporting. So I agree. Maybe that doesn't apply to all of us in the editor world, so that may be some line of demarcation, but they can coexist as well.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Yeah, because I also see like a lot of people will be like, oh, well, I went to J School. I'm like, well, I didn't go to J school, so I can't consider myself as a journalist. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

I think we both studied PR in college.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

I actually studied writing in college.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

To your point though, I I I some people I've written for, I will shout out Birdie. I will name a name because I I think they pride themselves on having experts in almost every category so that they could, you know, double check and triple check and substantiate a lot of their claims. They might not get it right every time, but but I think they really do pride themselves on having writers that have access to experts and also having their own coalition of experts as well.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah, um, I'm on the New Beauty Brain Trust, and they will like send me stuff to help them fact check, and I think that's really the way to go because some of the stories that are coming out, like it's just quackery, or they'll cover things that um, you know, I I saw one publication today was talking about somebody wrote this book about oh, why we should be in the sun more and we're protecting ourselves too much from the sun and all this.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

And I'm like, why are we platforming that? A lot of assignments, I mean, it's they want the views, they want the clicks, they want to come up first on Google. So a lot of times they're just writing about anything that'll get them clicks, right? And that's I think it's still journalism, but it's just a certain type of journalism that prioritizes engagement, and you know, that is really the beginning of the end of what we come to know as print media and journalism in the beauty space, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Do you feel like the rise in social media and the need for high SEO, high engagement, all these things is kind of like diluted journalism in the beauty industry, especially?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yes, it can. Any technology, you know, can decay the state of things as we know it. And it and it can because again, it probably it prioritizes engagement, it prioritizes affiliate links, it prioritizes business deals, which is inherently normal, but again, it can harm the individual writer, journalist, and editor in our bottom line.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Because a lot of times people focus on SEO, so like search engine optimization. So tell all my friends, like if you see something that's trending, a lot of times the publications have to cover it so they can get all the high views and clicks.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

I mean, even with us doing content when I was first starting out, SEO was the focus. Because like, how are you standing out from the pack? How can you be number one on the search? How are you like the top thing that comes up when someone's looking for best sunscreen?

SPEAKER_03 14:46

Or like the best sunscreens from Mellon and Skin Tones. I'm like, okay, but if it's not someone that is like my skin tone, I'm like, why are you writing this for Melanin's skin tones when you're not even that color? I always ask myself that, like, why are you doing this?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Does that happen a lot?

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Well, you know, it's it's who are it's it's about who gets the jobs, who gets the assignments, who gets to write, who get who gets to speak on behalf of the audience, who gets to make the suggestions, who has access to the platforms that give them that visibility. And a lot of times, it's the same thing, right? I I guess I'll just come come right out and say I'm obviously what was and what we knew as diversity, not as a mandate, but but real diversity in digital media and publishing, it's getting worse and worse. It is. So the people that write the stories for the general audience, or for men, or for people of color, or for people with curly hair, are often white editors. You know, they're they're the most available to the assigning editors. It's it's harder for newer writers and editors to get work, and even harder for if we're just gonna come right out and say black male writers in in the men's space.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

Because there's not a lot of us in the space. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

If if we're talking about our world, which which is the men's beauty, grooming, skincare style world, there aren't a lot of voices. I actually have recently met Larry, I didn't even know Larry, and I always liked to I always thought it was just myself, Styx Matthews, at least here in New York. Now I know that there's Larry, it's still not enough. And oftentimes, when I'm at um events or launches, I all I see me and I see Sticks Matthews every now and then.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Love him, love him down. He's actually the real reason why I'm in this space.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Um yeah, so shout out to you, Sticks.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Well, absolutely. And you know, it's a it's an indicator of of how the population looks in journalism, and particularly in the men's space, there there aren't a lot of opportunities for us to do the writing for us, going back to what you said about who's writing the story. Yeah. You know, that's something that um is is an issue, but hopefully it's something that we we all learn how to adjust to.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

I feel like there's a lot of favoritism in the editorial space. A lot of favoritism, because it's a lot it's more of like BD editors on the lookout for their friends that are not black, if that makes sense. Like, I see that they write these stories, and I'm like, okay, why can't you reach out to someone like me or Styx or Salem because we actually can actually talk about this? Because there's also men reading these outlets.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Yeah, yeah. I think even I see it in my field in dermatology. Like, people are like, why do we need diversity? Why is everybody like uh always cracking around about getting more black dermatologists? And I'm like, okay. If you don't have a background in, you know, uh what it's like to have melanated skin, hair textures, things like that, you're not gonna be able to relate to your patients, and there's gonna be a disconnect.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Here's the thing the industry wants to cling to what is normal to the industry, which oftentimes is white. The problem with that is when diversity came along, people generally felt like they were being forced to embrace something that they didn't want to embrace. And the problem with that is diversity has nothing to do with you or policies or politics. We live in New York City. I don't know about you, I've been saying this for years. When I step outside of my door, I see all types of people. That is diversity. And the boardroom, the the lab, the law office, the press office, and the editorial desk should look like the world, especially in big cities like New York. So when you say, why do we need diversity? You know that's a choice. Because what you're doing is you're clinging into a norm. Diversity isn't here to threaten you or take anything away from you. How are we gonna formulate products for people that don't understand certain conditions? How are we gonna formulate products for hair when you don't have anyone in the room that can speak to that? You know? So when you ask why we need diversity, I I question where where you stand, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:02

That makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Because why why why wouldn't we need diversity in a world that is supposed to reflect everyone, everyone's skin concerns, everyone's hair chemistry? Come on.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

I mean, uh, this is more of a petty thing. Oh no, we could be petty, but no, no, no, like but I feel like it's a real reflection of what's going on. Have the two of you heard about the cloud bob situation? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

I I heard you guys speaking about that on a previous episode, and I'm glad you brought that up.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

You know what?

SPEAKER_01 19:32

I'll let you speak because we have to stop discovering things that have already existed in the culture, and that goes back to who gets to tell the story. Let one of us tell that story, and and not about the cloud bob, but let's talk about why the afro is and always has been a staple look for black women. Why do we have to reinvent it or rename it? Or when it's told through a white lens, that gives it validity. Again, that's the issue. We have to give it a new name and make it exciting to be interesting, but it was already an interesting boo.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Does that go back to the point though of like needing to really focus on oh, we need engagement and SEO? So it's like we've seen this in a lot of different aspects, but it's like the re the rediscovery, the reinvention of something to make it viral.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

When it's like we've seen it with Kim Kardashian and Braids, yeah. We we've seen it with Kim Kardashian and S. We've seen it with Kim Kardashian and lips.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

But when they see a black woman doing it, they're like, oh, she's problematic. And I'm like, how is that being problematic when we see someone else?

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Well, there's all those things about like the workplace uh dress codes where it's like your hair can't go beyond three inches from here, and it's like, so what are you really trying to say with that?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, and and the Crown Act and issues that surround that are still major issues all over the country in the world, schools, and then we get to hair dormants like do-rags and bonnets, which to some people may be inappropriate. But I've talked to teachers who wanted to know should they ban them in schools and had to talk to them about why oftentimes what may look ghetto to you or unprofessional to you may be a comfort for someone who can't get their hair done that day. It's expensive. Our hair textures are oftentimes it takes long to get it done. Your braids might not be finished that day, you might not feel presentable. So a do-rag or a cap or a bonnet might be a form of comfort.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Did you wear like a do-rag when you were in school?

SPEAKER_01 21:28

I had a do-rag to match my clothes.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

So I will be honest, I never worn a do-rag until I turned 30 because I felt like it was to me, it was ghetto. Like you go into you going out the house wearing a do-rag or bonnet.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

A do-rag is a is a very special thing to me. It is, yeah. I'm very proud to say if you Google do-rag history, not only do my words come up, my photo comes up. I'm proud to say that because I think it's a piece of technology that is so important to the story of black men, beauty, and self presentation in this country, that I can go on and on. About it. And while it can be seen as ghetto because it exists oftentimes in the ghetto, it's it really is our very first beauty tool.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

As black men. And it's something that we we hold on to. We wear it on the bus, we wear it on a train, we wear it to class, and it means something to us. So um I respect that point of view, but I I do challenge you to look at it like it's it really is one of our first things as men that we get to play with, like our hair. Yeah. You know, like a little wig, if you will.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

I remember I was at a Pattern Beauty pre-Met Gala party. That's when Tracy Ellis Ross came in. I remember looking at Tiana Taylor on the red carpet. I was like, wow, she's owning wearing a do-rag. Maybe I need to follow her footsteps. And I remember I went to a press trip and I wore a do-rag. And people did talk to me normally, but I did see a few like side eyes like, why is he wearing a do-rag at this dinner? I'm like, yeah, I want to.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

I think that's the provocation of a do-rag. It is again, it's an adornment tool. And it can, you know, I remember I would wear a suit with a pink do-rag to the museum. You know, it's just about let it be ghetto. It's a it's a performance piece, you know, so it's it sparks conversation. People feel like they're inappropriate outside of your block, and they may be. But again, it's it's such an easily available piece of fabric that can take an outfit to the next level. It protects our hair, it preserves our waves, our braids.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

How do you feel about the recent kind of like let's reframe the mentality around a do-rag by featuring it in really high fashion context? Because Rihanna was on the cover of Vogue with a do-rag on. Yes. We were talking about drag race before we were filming. Simone, the wiener, the winner, wiener, the winner of the winner of I forgot what season, but one of her runway looks featured Oh my god, it looks so good. It's extra long. Extra long train. So it's like this glamorization, this like luxurization of the do-rag.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

I love it. It's all about authorship. Whose point of view are we getting? Who is it on? What's the intention?

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Am I giving DL trade?

SPEAKER_01 23:57

That too.

SPEAKER_04 23:59

What does that mean to me quickly?

SPEAKER_03 24:01

What does that mean to me? You know, DL men, like they trade, they look like hood, but they like to follow around with guys. I'm trying to be professional.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Are you saying if your status ain't hood, I ain't checking for them? I need a cellja. I need a cellja. My people are in the building. Yes. No, but it's it's all about who's telling the story. I I don't think that is inappropriate for a white stylist to touch a do-rag, but who are you putting it on? What's the image that you're portraying? Are you are you giving DL trade? Because I don't think that's your story to tell. Um, love Drianna, love Solange. Um, I forget the rapper's name, but he was the first one to wear the extra long do-rag on the carpet of the Grammys. Simone. I love seeing the do-rag in art. I think, again, it's just one of those technologies that tells so many stories about our culture, and I love to see it.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

So now I'm like, I'm actually owning wearing a do-rag whenever I'm out. I just wear like a nice cute outfit. I'm like, let me just put this do-rag on. I only have black though. Get your colors. Get my colors.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

So going back to journalism versus beauty editor, what what is a beauty editor? Educate the viewer.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

So a beauty editor is someone that reports, edits, writes, and publishes beauty content. So article forms, long format, social media of all dain's beauty. Like what and a lot of times within our jobs as beauty editors is more of how can I say we go to these events, we learn about what products are coming out this year. We have there's always dermatologists or experts to speak about the be yeah, y'all too.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Speak about the speak about the product, why it's in the market, and then talk about the ingredients, how long to formulate, how long it took to formulate the product, and some other things. A lot of times it's always like a lot of beauty editors, either at like a breakfast, lunch, or dinner, or like a press preview to talk about the beauty brand. Did I explain it clearly?

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Perfect. We encounter the products on behalf of the platforms and help the audience make decisions. Primarily, that's our job. What to use, how to use it, who's it for, what works, what doesn't work, um, which is a lot different from fashion because we're actually wearing the products on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

And we have to test it out, like for a story, because there's so many beauty products that are out there, and always, you know, beauty launches coming out, and it's just it can be tiresome, but it's our job. Someone has to do it.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

And that's and I also think a big part of that is also the journalism side of it, where there's reporting, reporting on culture, because obviously our job is not limited to product and product alone.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

I think it's interesting that you bring up fashion because so often I feel like beauty and fashion are just like melded together, especially when it comes to like publications. It's like fashion magazines always have kind of like a beauty section, yeah, and their own beauty team. But there really is so much more like science and technology behind beauty. I mean, fashion's my first love, I have a clothing line, but at the same time, to your point, it's like they're not giving the people the clothes to write about them. You're basically like you're looking at it, if you're lucky, you're seeing more than a photo, you could touch it, you could see what's going on with it. But it's like it it's so different when it comes to like the research standpoint. Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

It's like you said, like fashion can be looked at as art, whereas with beauty and skincare, there's a lot of science and knowing what you're talking about before you talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

And a lot of times we had to interview dramatologists and experts for these stories.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yeah, that's also a really cool part of the job is getting to know people who who actually do the real work, the derms, and going to the labs actually to make the product too.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

That's actually very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

I think that's one of the best parts of being an editor is getting access to the part that you don't get to see as a consumer. Yeah. Not just access to the products, but learning people's stories behind brands, formulations, the science behind it all. It's really fun.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

And you mentioned earlier, and the whole reason this came up is because we were at an event together where Selim really like met Larry, and Selim was like, I rarely ever get to see other black editors in the space. And realistically, how long have you guys been doing this now?

SPEAKER_03 28:15

It has been as a beauty editor or just editorial in general?

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Editorial.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

I would say good about eight to nine years because I started off as a publicist, then I was able to transition to the editorial space.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

And Celim? I've officially been an editor since 2020.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

2020? Mm-hmm. Okay, not that long. But how did you guys get your foot in the door?

SPEAKER_03 28:34

You want me to start?

SPEAKER_00 28:35

How did you get your start in the industry?

SPEAKER_03 28:37

So I went to college, I went to Syracuse University, majored in writing. So after graduating from college, I went to the PR side. So I did like more of the consumer marketing. So I worked with beauty, fashion, lifestyle, travel brands. It was more like a fellowship, and I didn't have a great time there. So I went to another agency. I'm not gonna say the name agency name. You can go on my LinkedIn for that part.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

We'll link it below.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

We'll link it below, but that's all I'm gonna say. Um, I was doing more like the beauty side, so I was always doing like the media relations aspect. So PR has influencer marketing, media relations, like the corporate side. So media relations is more of we're reaching out to editors, we're sending products out, and hopefully that they can mention or feature the brand in like an article or like a print issue. Um and then after doing that PR job, I gotta remember, I went to the editorial side. So I was doing like entertainment, like, you know, writing about and like celebrities and stuff. So that's when I was like, okay, this is fun, but let me see how I can make money doing something else. So I did commerce writing, which is more like shopping stories. Um, I was at this one big publisher, got let go, and then a month later I went to this very big newspaper. And crazy enough, I was at only there for a month. And then they decided to let me go. And it was interesting because my mom had a hysterectomy the day before I got let go. Yeah. And then around that time, I was trying to figure out what is my why? Like, what am I? I love doing beauty, but what is my actual why? A month later, I went to the Unilever trip, and I noticed that I was the only black guy there. Because Sticks was supposed to come to that trip. But I guess he was sick at the time. And during that time, I was like, what other black male beauty editors are in the market? I only thought about six, and I was like, okay, maybe I could be like the second or the third guy, and hopefully that will take my career somewhere else. So I've been doing this for this was like 2023. I became a beauty editor. It's been like now three years, but overall, like eight, nine years of being in the industry.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

But you basically got yourself, you got your foot in the door yourself.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Yeah. Because I didn't have nobody, like literally, it was just creating my own experience from doing that.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

I think my story is fun because, first of all, I've I've always loved beauty, and I and I like to always say beauty media, uh, skincare ads from back in the day. I read all of the actual paper magazines, whether it was 17 magazine, Vogue, Details, you name it, and seeing myself in the ads and commercials, like even though I didn't see myself flash forward to YouTube, really being a big YouTube junkie and consuming a lot of um Michelle Fawn, you know, like the early beauty YouTubers. And I would find guys.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

Did you like Jackie Aina?

SPEAKER_01 31:18

I did. I did, I did. Back in the day, yeah, loved early Jackie Aina, all of that. But when I would go out and try to emulate the men's videos, I would find it would be like shades I couldn't use, you know. I remember going out and getting my first makeup forever camo palette. Point is eventually I started to feel this little voice in my head that was like, why don't you start to create content for black men in the beauty space, not using those words, and this was 2014. For a short while, I started my own channel on YouTube called The Method Mail, kind of went in and out. I also come from a PR background, so I was one of those New Yorkers that bounced around odd jobs and PR. You have to. I ran a studio in Chelsea for a while, wasn't uh in journalism or beauty at all. Started the YouTube channel for a while, put it down, and it in 2017 I decided to start putting videos on my Instagram page. And I just did quick little one-minute routines. Kind of, I know YouTube will probably hate this, but a lot of it was like DIY putting cucumbers on my face. It was embarrassing. But what happened was people took me seriously. People they were like, I love that you're doing these skincare videos. And eventually I go to TJ Maxx and get my little discount stuff. And by about 2019, people were taking me seriously. Now, mind you, I was never huge, I never had a lot of followers, never went viral, but the brand deal started to come, and then eventually Birdie came along and offered me my own column and asked to help uh start the Birdie Boy franchise. And from there, other writing opportunities came, and then shortly thereafter, Bustle and Fatherly came and asked me to be the first style editor for Fatherly. And um, although that did not work out the way we would have liked, and eventually uh Fatherly did get um shut down, I had some really great experiences, and that's how I got my foot in the door, and and I refused to leave the beauty industry.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Because I feel like there's not a lot of black men doing beauty. Like I remember they we talked about, I talked about this on a panel. I see the jet the new generation that they have access, they have more access to information now. Back when I was like in school, the only access I had was like magazines, a little bit of the internet, but I didn't like know how to do beauty because I didn't grew up, I grew up in a predominantly black household where we just, you know, we didn't think about sunscreen, we only think about vasoline.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Only predominantly black?

SPEAKER_03 33:37

I'm Caribbean, so you know, but again, I didn't see a lot of I didn't have access to that information because I did have experience of acne.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

I did experience like going to a dermatologist, they didn't know how to treat my skin, and I'm like, Ooh, that my grandmother taking me to the dermatologist and them giving me that harsh benzoyl peroxide baby. And that to this day I say I'm allergic to it. I don't know if I actually am. But like you said, like but that on the flip side was my first experience really with beauty, looking in the mirror, especially, you know, we didn't talk enough about really the the gay part of it all. But growing up as a gay black boy, being told that you're gay in Philly, in the projects, oh my god, yes, looking in the mirror and trying to find a way to feel beautiful, finding a way to feel like the people on the television, wondering, you know, am I attractive? And seeing that through skin, looking looking at yourself through your eyes of experiencing acne or or dealing with your hair texture, which was a big thing for me growing up. And you know, I I say that to say beauty has always been a part of me. I've always been a writer since I was a kid, and I think I was born to be an editor, I think I was born to write about this this phenomenon, which is men in beauty. And I think that story started with the failed visits to the dermatologist, like you just said. And much like, see, our culture doesn't allow us to really express ourselves through beauty when we're growing up, but we found a way, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:07

I think it's also too, because I during the panel we talked about how what was the topic we talked about? Um, I didn't see like black men being advertised. Like I never like the black men I see advertised together, like straight men, straight black men that, you know, that had the look, if that makes sense. So I didn't see that growing up.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah, hyper masculine. And like you guys say, often hyper, there's nothing gayer than hyper masculinity. You know, and we can overcompensate in in marketing. Um, again, not naming any names. There's some brands that I love, and I think they have a lot of opportunity to connect with men in the marketplace, but the problem is they hire these big hyper masculine models, and it's just like I think that deters everyday guys, you know, that the overcompensation of it all. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 35:53

People need to look at who the target market is, and I think especially with beauty, it's like um, is it these hyper masculine straight guys that are buying the product?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

But I think it's like because right now the big focus with a lot of brands and retailers is how do we get the straight male demographic? Actually, me and Larry were just at a Sephora event recently that was uh geared towards men and men's fragrance, and it was like all the beauty boys were there. I feel like if you feature really hyper masculine men in the beauty advertising, that they think is a conduit to get more men into the industry. But again, to Angelo's point, these are not the men that are buying the products necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

No, and when we're talking about marketing, that type of imagery attracts women, not men. So there's that. That's not true. Potentially, yeah. You know, correct me if I'm wrong. I think there's a spectrum. Beauty has a problem with either side of the pole. It's either hyper femme, which only really shows one side of what a man can be, and then it's hyper masculine. And it really alienates, you know, your everyday guy that might not really be well-versed in complexion product, but he's also not a rugby player. And they don't see themselves, so they don't engage. So oftentimes people think they want to attract straight men, but what you really want to attract is the everyday guy, no matter how he identifies. You know, your vanilla guy, t-shirt, slacks, but you scare him away with too much of that. And that's my opinion, because I also consider myself to be a little bit of a marketing nerd.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

I feel like a lot of brands are scared to touch on gay people because and the reason why I'm saying that is because I see I don't see them presenting men being advertised. Like I don't see them, you know, in like brand deals and stuff. So they always go for like the guys that are hyper, like you said, hyper masculine.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

I feel like it's like what's the the safest representation of that? But then you see like some beauty brands do embrace that a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

I'm seeing the opposite, and I'm not saying that's a problem. I'm seeing a lot of the opposite, and I've seen a lot of the opposite. I think James Charles was revolutionary, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Sister Sister. Anytime he's brought up the case.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

I'm only, I'm only, yeah, my reference for him is a a male-identifying human being with a full face, okay?

SPEAKER_04 38:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Not the first, not the only. But the problem that started is they only started to hire other James Charles's and look, if I have on makeup, you might not know it. I'm not doing it to make you feel comfortable. I'm just more of a simplistic guy. What enough, like I used to work, well, again, I'm not naming names. I consulted for a while with a beauty brand, and I tested so many products that I would never use. And I would always ask them in the panels, like, you know, well, what about, you know, like as subtle makeup guys? I don't see enough of that being considered, not because it's safe, not because it's not feminine, but because it's more of the market is reflected in that pocket anyway. So it's it's again, we're like, we're missing out on communicating with people that are right in the middle, that are just subtle for be for subtle sake.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Yeah. Well, because yeah, if you're looking at somebody like a James Charles, it's like he was not selling to guys. It was it was entertainment and it was for to sell to women. Most men who use makeup are not walking around with a cut crease and like uh speaking.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

And I always like to say, I overemphasize, I love that. I love my femme bros, but I I would much like makeup, I would love to see a 45-piece range because we come in so many spectrums of how we interact with makeup. I would like to see that communicated more.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

So that being said, what is your perspective on men's color ranges happening right now? Because actually, one of the ways we all know each other is through something called Boys and Beauty. At one of the events you went to, did you meet Jamie from Apostol? Jamie is this very, what's the word?

SPEAKER_04 39:44

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Beautiful, very he's had a very long career in the makeup industry. He used to work with Francois Nars. He launched a brand called Apostle. Uh, Jamie is Jamaican, and Apostle is a men's focused complexion range that's, I believe, on Alta. Did I meet him?

SPEAKER_03 40:00

I'm not sure if you met him. I think I met him.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

He was at the commodity event. Did you go to that one? I did, but I didn't get the chance to meet him.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

You should meet him.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

I'm I'm actually preparing an email to him, but he's a very sweet guy, and Apostle is actually a really fun range, but to Selim's point, it's focused on just like clean skin, a very, very simplistic, like complexion perfecting range.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

I actually attended a makeover with them, and he um Jamie did my face. I walked around the entire day after, and and that's what I'm saying. It was like unclockable, but clockable at the like you knew I had on something, but it looked like skin. So I definitely got to give him a shout out. He did everything with his hand, like we talked about. And that's the type of makeup I love. And I would I would love to see that encourage more because I I it it's an easy entry point. Again, it's not anti-femme, but it's just like for guys that are just trying to creep their way in, and we need to see that portrayed more in beauty media. And I think that'll encourage customers that people are saying they try they're trying to attract.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

Do you think also two men can be scared to try new things?

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Absolutely. Especially as black men, yeah. You know, I'm gonna be honest. I I I I lived here in Bushwick for 13 years. When I lived here, and now that I live in Flatbush for the last two years, I'm a man who carries a bag, you know? Oh, I love carrying a hair bag. I'm asked man. And I still there's a little discomfort between my apartment until I get on the actual train with me just having a bag. Doesn't matter if it's uh a more masculine bag or or a more androgynous-shaped bag. And I'm just saying that to say there's there's still a level of discomfort with self-expression that I think we're still trying to get through. So absolutely, all men, really, but in our case, especially black men, we st we we are policed more, yeah from very from a very early age, and we need to talk about that. I know I I wanted to talk about how much beauty is a part of our identity as black men, but it's also gendered, policed, discouraged. So people like you and I are are unicorns, yeah, really.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

I mean, you've talked about like how really meeting each other and being like there's only three of us in this space right now in the city. When was the first time going back to just like you are young black gay men? What was the first time you were like, oh, that's me? Like what I want to be, or something that represents me in the form I want to grow up grow up to be, whether that was like media, music, print.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Marcus Graham from Boomerang, Eddie Murphy's character. I I um talked about him before. He, for me, was um a black man who was successful. He worked in advertising, which was also very appealing to me that world. He had his own huge apartment in New York City. He took care of his skin, his hair, it was laid. Although he was not, he was a womanizer, but that wasn't the part that attracted me. It was something about, again, that self-presentation. I just felt that is what I want to be. I want to live in New York, I want to wear the cologne, I want to put on the foundation, you know, I want to brush my eyebrows up, I want to shop, I want to put on a suit. Marcus Graham, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Mine has to be Six Matthews. And the reason why I said that is because I remember starting in PR space when I was looking through all the media lists, he his name would come up. I said, Who is the Six Matthews guy? The minute I saw him on my computer screen, I was like, okay, he loves wearing lipstick, he loves wearing women's clothes. And I was scared to like wear women's clothes because at that time, this is like back in 2019, I was just scared of how people would perceive me. Because again, I used to be a people pleaser. I wanted to make sure everyone liked me, make sure that I go into a room, people are comfortable talking to me. The minute I saw him on social media, I was like, okay, maybe I need to step into my femme side. Because a lot of times when I was growing up, you know, I grew up where I grew up a traditional Korean dad. My dad's like, hey, you can't don't know sissy shit. We can't do that here. But as I got older, and like being in New York City, seeing how black men are all like embracing their c colors and everything, I said to myself, I need to do this. Like, it's either go big or go home. So I remember just seeing Sticks. And crazy enough, when I when Sticks was let go from his job at Hype Bay, I remember I reached out to him and then he decided to, you know, respond to my email. Well, it was a DM, it was an Instagram DM, by the way. And we met up for like three hours, and I was just like, okay, maybe I need to touch my femme side because I always wear like men's clothes. Now I'm wearing women's clothes. I'm like, okay, I'm really touching on my feminine side and I'm loving it. Because growing up, I never touched on that.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Yeah, and I know um I've I've done a panel with sticks before, and I remember how much he emphasized being a beauty editor. And I agree, I think there there aren't a lot of black men that are actually dealing with the lipstick and the and the actual makeup that can communicate on it, like he can't, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Well, because growing up, you know, I used to steal my mom's like mascara and in high school, I used to like touch it up. And my friends was like, Are you wearing mascara? I'm like, no, I'm not. I would say, like, no, I'm not. But they knew everyone knew I was gay.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

I've never admitted this before, but my grandmother raised me, and I definitely played with um her rouge and her eyeliner. I gave myself a little mole. I like to think this mole that's here permanently was not here when I was a kid. I put it there with my grandmother's mascara. It's like one here, and then it's just it's there forever. So thank you, grandma.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

I actually developed a beauty mark um growing up because I used to like put a little dot.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

My friends were like, is that I used to do the beauty mark thing with my grandma used to always keep a little pencil sharpened mascara on her dresser, and if I had a pimple, I would, and that was just you know my my entry to makeup and being fabulous.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

Yeah, my mom would love to apply like mascara because I have very long eyelashes. She would just love those eyelashes are should apply it on you? Yeah, a little bit, and then in high school, my friends would be like, Hey, can I apply like mascara and eyeliner on you? I'm like, sure, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Can I ask, what was your first makeup product?

SPEAKER_03 46:07

Oh, the Maybelline uh last sensational mascara. That was my favorite one. My mom would get it all the time, and she will apply it every morning, and then you know, when she would be in her room like getting ready, that's when I was like, you know what? Let me still this from the little bathroom counter, just apply it. I just play a little bit on my lashes.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Mine was the NARS multiple stick. Do you guys remember that? It was like a child.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

What age did you use makeup? What age?

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Did I start? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I didn't really start playing with makeup until my 20s.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Oh, okay. Yeah. I was like 15. I was buying Maybelline. I was like, Maybelline fit me the foundation and the concealer.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Well, you're actually wearing it. Yeah, I played with it as a kid, but really didn't start wearing it until my 20s.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

I didn't start wearing makeup, makeup like foundation or powder until I was like late 28, turning 29.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

I'm gonna tell you though, when I did How old am I?

SPEAKER_00 47:07

I literally never revealed.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Hey, skincare and sunscreen. And crazy enough, oh my god, I can't I can't believe I'm gonna admit this on a podcast. I didn't start wearing sunscreen until I was 28. Get out. Because people don't know. I grew up with not wearing sunscreen because in black households, my parents are like, oh, you don't need black people don't need sunscreen. I'm like, yeah, you do. Like when I saw a beauty's face, I tell everyone you better wear your sunscreen.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Prior to Instagram and the Instagram influencer era, there was no language for black people in sunscreen. Let's let's not pretend like there was some sophisticated auntie somewhere that was wearing sunscreen and taking it out of her bag. That did not happen. No, there was no you don't need sunscreen. There was, it was, it's it's just a cultural belief. I grew up again, South Philly, I grew up around black people. That was not a part of our language. Lotion, cocoa butter, Vaseline. That's it. I did not start hearing about sun protection for black folks until 2020. Just keeping it real. I love that it's happening, but let's stop pretending like that was a part of our culture. It it simply wasn't. It was not communicated on a healthcare level, it was not communicated in editorial or on television by any experts that I've ever grew up with. That's it. I'm just gonna say that. Let's let's stop acting like black people in sunscreen has always been a thing because they've never even communicated to us the importance. Melanoma is not something you learn about in elementary school and how to prevent it as a black person. Period.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Well, I mean uh to be fair, uh, nobody's learning about that. Like there is not a lot of education around sun safety, and as far as looking at the data for uh black people or anybody with skin of color, it's like the utility of sun protection for skin cancer prevention is something we're still figuring out. Um, obviously, uh most of the studies on all this stuff were done on white people, so that's our basis of knowing. But then when you get into okay, well, we're gonna look at a black population, not everybody's the same, not everybody has the same skin tone, not everybody's gonna have the same amount of risk. So um, I think sometimes it just like it's difficult to land on recommendations for people. We do know that, yeah, black people get skin cancer. Um, they could get the sun-induced ones too, like basal cell carcinoma, squamous cell carcinoma, etc. Um, any sun protection will lower that risk. How big is that risk? We don't know. What I do know though is that if you want to avoid sun damage and stay looking younger for longer, it is important for everyone, especially because in skin of color, the first signs that we see usually aren't like wrinkling or expression lines. It's more discoloration. And like UV is a real culprit there.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

You know, I will say, um, I did a store, I actually did two stories. There was one store I did for L, and I talked about the L'Roche Pisse, my Love B3 serum, and how I developed hyperpigmentation because I didn't use sunscreen. And I was very, I was very open of admitting that because growing up, like we both said, it wasn't you know, fresh in the house in the black household. So, and then I'm doing another I did another story, I'm not gonna say the outlet name because it's not out yet. I did talk about sunscreens from Melanin's skin tones, and these are sunscreens I actually tested out on my skin. So also to your point, I feel like it's more of a generation thing because when I did a I did a personal essay about the beauty routines I learned for like my mom, my grandmother, and when I interviewed one of my aunts, she told me how the soaps that there were not a lot of soaps for black people. So there was this one specific soap. It was called Kita Cura. Kita Cura? So it was like a soap back in like the 50s and 60s, and then my yeah, that was when my aunt told me that I said, I never heard of that. And then I asked my mom, like, what was like grandma Genevieve's like skincare routine? My mom said, Well, she used, you know, she used like regular soap, but she also used cucumber and vinegar, like soap cucumbers on her eyes.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

That's my question though, in regards to sunscreen. How do we get people to use sunscreen when they can easily say, Well, I look fine thus far? Like if I haven't used it until I go into college, it's easy for someone to say, Well, I'm I'm fine at this point. So, how do you all, as especially as a dermatologist, how do you encounter that perspective?

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Yeah, I mean, risk is cumulative, that's the thing. So the biggest risk, I feel like, for for any cancer is age. So everybody's saying, Hey, I've been fine until now, it's like, okay, and it's like getting in a car without a seatbelt and being like, hey, I haven't died yet, didn't get in a car accident. I'm like, okay, what about when you do? Um so uh but yeah, risk is cumulative. So to say, hey, I went 30 years without wearing it and I never got skin cancer, it's like most people develop it when they're in their 60s. So if you have another 30 years of risk that you're adding on top of that, especially if you're somebody who gets a lot of sun exposure, say you work outdoors or you live in an area where like the UV index is gonna be super high most of the year, you're gonna have a higher risk, and that adds up over years.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Let me ask you a question. Is it true that melanated skin has a certain level of I don't know if I'm saying it technically correct, but a certain level of SPF?

SPEAKER_02 52:51

So yeah, melanin is sun protective, it's just not to the level that sunscreens are. And like I kind of alluded to before, just being like, oh well, I have melanated skin, it's like the there's a whole range of skin tones, and like putting an SPF number on that is gonna be difficult to do because everybody's different.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

So well, we're wearing our sunscreen, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:16

Where are your sunscreen?

SPEAKER_00 53:17

Including the lip.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

Yeah, oh yeah, that's very important.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Yeah. What is your favorite sunscreen of the moment?

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Oh I was unprepared for this.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

What sunscreen are you wearing today?

SPEAKER_03 53:28

Uh La Roche Passé, the Ant. It's like a little The little square one, the little square bottle. The new one, the U.S. And the OL SUV air. It's so good.

unknown 53:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

I love their sunscreens. I'm wearing the Super Group City sunscreen serum. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

See, I'm like wearing like the unseen sunscreen.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

I might even be wearing unseen. I always get those two mixed up. It's one of the two. But yeah, love that.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

I mean, realistically, you talked about you only started wearing sunscreen recently. What has been your journey with like sun protection over the years, especially as the beauty editor?

SPEAKER_01 53:57

For for me, it's learning later in life, yeah, when to put it on, learning strategies for reapplication. Uh, it was an uphill battle learning how much you were very helpful in that. Actually, I felt very judged by you years ago, but I definitely learned what to do. Um, so that it was it was more uh practice for me, like figuring out what was right, how to reapply. I'm again, I'm a bad guy, pack it my bag, do sprays work for me, just figuring out how to fit it into my because I mean obviously you've had like experiences where you're like, oh, the sunscreen's so hyped, let me try it out, and it's been like a horrible thing. Oh, yeah, but that's the thing. More because I'm a consumer and an editor, I've tried a lot. And hell yeah, I've tried some stuff where I'm like, child, actually, um, I don't know which one it may be uh well, I can't say the brand, but one that my boyfriend uses, he's chalky every day, but he wears it and he gets in his car and he goes to work.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

Can't you help him out? Like can we help him out? Like a little don't you have something?

SPEAKER_01 54:57

He doesn't want to even want to this man does not care about me being a beauty editor, not whatsoever. He does not want he'll use it, but I can't get him to stop using it. I love that though. I love that. You know, he's not a beauty person. Um but at least he's doing it. He's one thing I'm very, very happy about, he wears sunscreen every single day.

SPEAKER_03 55:19

I've been trying to get my dad, my mom, my brother wear sunscreen. I just tell us to look. I try my best, I can't tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

You know what works? People love free stuff. I do them free stuff. The prettiest bottles, sometimes they might want to save it though, especially our aunties and uncles.

SPEAKER_03 55:37

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Right? So, yeah, a lot of a lot a lot of trial and error, a lot of purple, a lot of ash, some grays, but the worst ones, I like to just um, if I can, use them on my body instead, or I'll just use them for the beach. So I I try I try to find a way to use every sunscreen that I open.

SPEAKER_03 55:55

I remember the cut, they did a story about sunscreens, and Asia Malaya Wear, who is the that girl, I you know, she's another reason why I'm in the industry because seeing her being a curvy black woman owning herself, and she doesn't have to change for anyone. Like, she did a story about uh mineral sunscreens, and there was literally a picture of her wearing a sunscreen, at least like a big white cast. And I'm like, you know what? She's showing people like, okay, this is not gonna work for our skin tones. Here's what my here are my recommendations.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Can I say something real fast? And I I might be going off script. I love that we're giving other people props, but I I want to let you know something. I I just met you recently, and meeting you has really inspired me. Oh, thank you. I love the way you represent yourself, I love your content, I love your spirit. And honestly, I I met you all at a time where I was really questioning my existence in this industry. I've I've sat down with my partner many times this year and talked to him about like going to become a manager at a hotel or whoever would hire me. But this game keeps on calling me. And when I met you a couple weeks ago, like I I could not stop talking about you when I got home because you know, meeting another black male editor and seeing the way that you um persevere, because I know we share some experiences, it's so inspiring, and you really are for me the reason that I'm excited again. I I just wanted to say that.

SPEAKER_03 57:19

Don't make me cry. I cry everything. Let me not get tearied out now.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

I might cry too. So let's change the subject.

SPEAKER_03 57:24

Because whenever I go to events now, and I'm on I'm the only black man there, it's like I have to I'm being watched for everything I'm doing. You know what I'm trying to say? Like, you feel like you're under a microscope? Yeah. Like I'm the only boy in the room. Like, I gotta make sure that I fit the scene.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Doesn't that you're like kind of like a spectacle or you're kind of like an outlier in everyone's life?

SPEAKER_03 57:46

I'm an outlier. So I remember the Unilever trip. I'm gonna say the brand name. So Unilever does this annual uh press trip once a year where they invite all the beauty editors, beauty directors, experts on this trip to learn about what pro what products are coming out within a year. I remember 2023 when I got there. We were in Santa Monica, I was at this one hotel, and that's when I saw I just saw a lot of black women. Like I saw Blake Newbie, who I admire so much, Asia Malia Ware, Julie Wilson, Tatiana Yamari. That's my bitch right there. Like, when I say that's my bitch, like me and her, we talk every day. Like, she's like a sister to me. Uh, Anika Harris, I'm trying to think of other women, Kayla Greaves, um, and me just talking to them, I was like, I don't, I'm the only black guy there. Like, this is really, really sad. And I just saw all whites and Asians, which I love diversity, don't get me wrong. But it's just me being there, I'm like, how am I the only black guy here? Like, this is crazy. And then those four days, I remember just talking to God, talking to my mom, and talking to my therapist, and I was like, is this my calling? Like, should I be doing this? Because I don't see no black man doing this. So that's when, after that trip, I sent me email every editor I met and just freelance every and then just freelance for everybody. But again, and it's crazy because I now don't really get opportunities to freelance to write for these outlets because they want to prioritize their friends or prior prioritize people that they want to work with. But it's like you need to be different, right?

SPEAKER_01 59:17

I wanted to bring that part up. Yeah. Right. Because the access that I have to the information, behind the scenes, launches, experts definitely don't match the access that I have to be able to write about these things, and that can be a disservice. It kind of sucks, right? We're we're managing our these relationships with our PR partners and our partners at brands, and I I wish I could write about some of this stuff. I wish I could, but the opportunity to is not there. And you know, for me, like people stop answering emails because you know, I feel like where again, being a black male editor was a hot ticket when everyone wanted to show how diverse they were, it was cute. And as soon as that that moment was over, people they don't see the value anymore. And I don't, you know, and I think that's that sucks because while that has changed for me, I'm I'm still I'm trying every single thing that's coming out. I'm talking to every expert, I'm getting offers to meet the brand founders, and it's just like the to have the lack of the ability to connect those dots is a challenge. But like I said, being inspired by you, and when you build something over for yourself, you have that platform. You know what I mean? So I think that's something that as editors, it's a it's a challenge that we're learning how to navigate, which is take the power away from the platforms or the big publishers and being able to communicate our experiences with products and brands on our own platforms so that we can connect those dots because everybody has a job. Yeah, the brand has a job, the publicist has a job, and our job is to get that information to the client. And as an editor, whether that's as a black man or a man, period, I can't often connect that dot. And that's that's the part that's challenging. But when I see people like you building something for yourself on Instagram, it's like, oh, I I had the juice all along, you know, I forgot. You know, so again, thank you for reminding me that we could build our own platforms.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:04

Yeah, because a lot of times, too, and this is I'm gonna be very blunt. I say this, they'll a lot of publicists tend to separate freelance editors versus full-time editors. And I'm gonna break it down. So freelance editors is like, we are own, we are our our own boss. We can freelance for everybody. Um, we could do we could pitch whatever. The full-time editors is like they're for one outlet specifically. They can write about things, but a lot of times the full-time editors get invited to all the perks and all the stuff. Whereas the freelance editors, it depends on if you write for a prestige outlet. Like, I'll give an example. When I started writing for this one black outlet, I'm not gonna say the name of it, people were giving me, they were they saw me, but they didn't want to give me a chance until I started writing for like the white outlets.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

Oh, yeah, I get offers. Oh, yeah, that happens to me all the time. I was in February, I got an offer to meet Lorenz Tate and interview Lorenz Tate. Can I tell you? And Lorenz Tate was another one that was like a beauty icon for me growing up. So what? But it was like, if you can guarantee placement, which even if I wrote for Vogue, maybe I can't know how it works. I can't guarantee you placement via email within a day's notice. But secondly, it's like, well, I I don't really have anyone to pitch this to. On one hand, because people are shady, but on the other hand, I'm gonna be honest here, who do you think is gonna find the newsworthiness in a black-owned or black-founded brand with a black male actor as the face? That space doesn't really exist. So again, you know, there there are those missed opportunities that are dependent on who you write for, but then it's also who you're writing about and if it matters to the outlets. So again, you know, I want to keep driving that the the waves of future is really taking the power away from the platforms, the the houses, and empowering us editors so that we could take those opportunities and like we got stories to tell, but how can we tell the story if if I can't get Vogue to you know approve my pitch, yeah, I can't tell the story.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:03

I feel like a lot a lot of time to publicists, they don't really get what it means to be an editor. Like we get pitches all the time. I mean, sometimes when we get the pitch, we gotta get it approval by you know the brand and then the specific editor, and then like you know, the public. You gotta get your rate approved. Yeah, get my yeah, right, get your rate approved. People don't understand that part. They're like, oh no. And crazy enough, whenever I get press trips opportunities, it's more of like, oh, you need to promise us coverage before attending the trip. And I'm like, I can't do that. But a lot of times, do when they do that for full-time editors, the full-time editors don't really feature the brand.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

I just I want us to, I I hope that we could get to a place in the media, in the beauty, and especially in the beauty industry, where we change how we look at coverage. It won't always be a feature on the top website. We we we do have to put a little bit more value in what's happening on TikTok and Instagram because that's where the editors are going, substack. So so maybe it, you know, it will change and more writers will get opportunities to communicate these messages, even when they aren't associated with, you know, I keep saying vogue, but that's like the most well.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:12

I so low context, I did chilling in high school, and me doing chilling, I was inspired. Everyone tells me that. I do. Um, I remember interviewing Gabriel Union. People don't know. I love her down. I have two of her books, and when I interviewed her, I brought those two books with me. So when I pitched her to Essence, they didn't pick it. And I was like, well, you know what? I have my own Substack. Let me publish on my Substack. And the client was happy when I did that. Because a lot of times, I would say, you know, you can pitch these outlets, but I tell publishers all the time, like, hey, you know, editorial is constantly changing. I can publish this stuff on my Substack. And I feel like now people like Substack more than the actual outlets.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Can I be messy? Go ahead. I feel like you didn't want to say essence, but then you slipped and said it. So if anybody wants to go to this video and take back a bit, you can connect the dots in people that he's referencing. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

And if not, we can leave out that's joined.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:12

Yep. Oh, yeah, because I'm not full-time. The thing about it is that I'm not full-time. I'm freelance. Like, people don't understand. Being a freelance editor, you have a lot of freedom where when you're a full-time, you gotta follow the politics. So I think of like beauty editors turn influencers, like Blake Newbie, Carly Cardellino, um, Christina Rodolfo. I think of these people that they left their editor job to become content creators and because they have more freedom to do whatever they want and make money off of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:41

I see them like taking the power back. It's like you're not at the behest of whatever the publication is. It's like you get to do content or write or whatever. Do host.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:52

Which is why I look at it less of becoming influencers and more of, like you said, taking the power back and creating content because all these companies. They're hiring like 22-year-olds to make content on the camp anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:03

They can't do their jobs. I hate to be that person, but I say they can't do their jobs. I think AI is coming for them anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

AI is the video that killed the radio star of today. I don't have any hate for Gen Z in general. I'm going to say this. I just don't like that it's the default for everything. That's all. We have to consider the fact that millennials still exist. They do spend a lot of money. Slightly older people do. I just get tired. And then we got it. Gen Z language in itself is a derivative of we ain't going to go there. So then we're resting on tropes. And I think a lot of the PR people and the brands rest on borrowed cultural language and material. And it's corny. And ironically, Gen Z see through it. And then we're just chasing our tails. So it's everybody needs to wake up. Like I said, open up your door. What do you see out there? This is who you need to be targeting. I'm sorry, everybody's not a 22-year-old twink, babes. Well, and who has the money?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:03

Well, because older people. When I first started out in editorial, my salary was $55,000. I jumped to this big publisher, I was making $60,000. And then my last newspaper job, I was making like $73,000. And when I did freelancing for a whole year, I kid you not, I made twice as more as a freelance editor than a full-time. Yeah. Because you gotta think about when you are full-time, you have you have you have access to benefits, right? That takes a big cushion out of your paycheck. And some other things. Like I had, you know, yeah, I have like benefits, I had other things. I was also going to therapy, which I still do. That took a big chunk. But then now, since I'm freelancing, even though I have health insurance by the state, which I am not ashamed of media, I have more access to resources now because of beat it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:55

That's one of the great things about living in the New York area, or New York is we have a lot of resources for us, creative people, as we make our way through the city. Um, yeah, I I I think there's no shame in that. I think the the the business side of being a freelancer is something we don't talk enough about. Defending your rate, you know, one person will pay you your rate, another person will call you and say, hey, I'll give you 150 for 1200 words, and you have to decide what's more important, that look, because you're only as good as your last look. Like, what's on your mock rack last, right? Like, have you written for people or are you just writing for your Substack? And I say just to say a lot of people they still look at Substack as just. Um, so there, like you said, there's that security in having a salary. So it's learning how to be more entrepreneurial in defending your rate, having contracts. Some of us have had managers or have managers. So again, like there's the sucky part, but there's also a lot of opportunity in optimizing ourselves as entrepreneurs and learning how to negotiate and get what we deserve because they are quick to offer you a buck fifty for two weeks' worth of work.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

You know? So there are ups and downs to both sides of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:04

And people don't talk about that a lot. They don't. They see like the glitz and glamours of our lives of, you know, we're going to these events, we're meeting all these celebrities, we're getting free products, but it's just like they don't understand like what goes behind the scenes and the politics. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:18

I have two more questions. What is your advice to younger black male people wanting to break into the beauty editorial space, the journalism space?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:27

I believe I said this last week when we all went out. If you are not given the opportunity, create your own experience. I tell people that all the time. Like when I I'll give you a backstory. When I was transitioning to editorial field, a lot of editors didn't take a chance on me. So what I did is I said, okay, I created a medium profile, meaning it was like an outlet where you can write. I was writing pieces for them. Um, and then after writing all these pieces, I was still I did edit test for editors. My strategy is let me reach out to them to see if they have any opportunities. So I didn't hear back. I kept following up every two weeks because editors, we get a lot of emails. Like sometimes I can't even keep track. Unless if a publicist has my number and they're like, hey, I text you about something, please let me know. I'm sorry, I'm texting. I'm like, oh no, you have my number, we're good. Like, you could text whenever. And I remember me being persistent of emailing these editors, my first bottom line was good housekeeping. And then I was able to keep, you know, freelance it for them. Because my strategy, I tell people this all the time. If an editor gives you an assignment, that's the trial and error. And when I say trial and error is you gotta make sure that article is spits, man, no grammatical mistakes. If they don't see any of that and on time, if they see that, they will continue working with you. If you have a lot of grammatical errors, they'll give you a second chance or may not give you a chance at all. Me doing that for good housekeeping. I remember I was doing PR jobs like here and there. And I remember at 2010, do you remember that website? At 2010, they used to post like all the like magazine jobs. Good housekeeping put posted uh the producer role. I said, let me reach out to this editor. She said, Hey, we'll have a phone call so we could I could tell you more about the role. Literally during the phone call, she says, Hey, do you want the job?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:16

Oh, I missed those days when it was that easy.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:18

Girl, I agree with you though. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:20

I think I I like to say I made the beauty industry come to me. I started small, and because I was consistent, those opportunities came. I was already prepared. I had already studied writing and journalism anyway. But by going to Instagram and using the platform that I had and showing that I had a language for encountering beauty and dealing with it, I showed people what I was good at. So I I think this new generation is already ahead of me there. I think it's important to focus on the art of writing, AP style, learning the art of journalism, learning about reporting, learning about sources, learning about ethics. Although they this it may be changing and shifting or less important to some, I think in order for you to be a great journalist and editor, you have to have the foundation, the unglamorous stuff and knowing how to write. I meet so many people that may not necessarily want to be editors, but they are curious. I'm always like, Do you write? So I'm always encouraging young people to write. And they're like, they even if they're uncomfortable, just start writing. You don't have to publish it. Just don't lose that ability to communicate via the art of writing. And that's always the foundation of entering the world is your skill.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:27

Yeah, you have to, especially in today's market, because I mean, there's people that I know that are getting hired from like their social media profiles. So can they write? Can they comprehend?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

And a lot of people are cute on camera.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:40

Can they think?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

And that's cool. But if you're looking to break into journalism, study journalism. Even if you don't go to college, study, read, you know. I when I was a kid, I just I learned how to write in magazine style through reading the magazines and learning about commas and everything, and then I went to school for it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:59

Did you had a mentor going into this industry? Because I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:01

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:02

Yeah, so we had to learn on our own.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:03

I think you have to consume. Like, that's something I say about doing content on social media too, for a lot of people. Like, other doctors will ask me, like, oh, where do I start? I'm like, you can't just start making social media content if you don't know what it is. So, like, in your cases, it's like if you want to write for these publications, read. Right, read.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

Start with intention. You know, so many people want to become famous or huge, and that and that's fine, and it works out for a lot of people. But what really differentiates you, and what I've learned about New York is the people who last here through ebbs and flow in their career are the people that continue to cultivate their skill because it'll it'll always be in demand when it comes back around.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:45

Also, something about you too specifically, and you've brought it up a little bit, it's just like the importance of self-branding and being known for something specific, being able to stand out. And I mean, Salem started on Instagram and built that platform and that awareness. Larry is just a force to be reckoned with, and like you'll meet Larry and you'll remember Larry and seeing Larry on panels. Larry is a big personality as well, and so there's like that awareness of they are themselves have a brand, and that reputation precedes them as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:15

Yeah, I tell people all the time, have a good reputation and have really strong relationships. I remember at the Unilever trip, I was the only guy there. I said, Let me just talk to every editor. Um, I remember having one-on-ones with everyone. They would tell me like their stories and like they gave me feedback about what they could do, like if I if they were my age. So I remember, you know, after the trip, I sent them email every editor that I met. Majority of them responded to me, a few didn't because they get so many emails. I'm like, okay, if I see them events, I'll say hi, how are you doing? And when I tell people all the time, be kind, because you never know where that's gonna take you. Because there's a few girls in the industry, I'm not gonna say names, I could, but I could read you the Phil Honey. We're not gonna do all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:57

There are some mean girls. I I again coming from PR, coming from production, being on sex with groups of like you, I I think it's a root like be sweet as pie. Now, I'm not perfect, I'm a Gemini, I'm I'm a Philadelphian, I can be an A-ho.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:10

Y'all's mouths are nasty.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:12

Let me tell you something. But I think it's important inner interpersonal branding, like having some level of awareness of people's experiences of you on on a one-on-one. Because fuck networking. Oh my god, can I cut it?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:26

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:27

Forget about networking and all of this, like get something out of somebody-driven communication. It's like, how are you making people feel? You know what I mean? And sometimes that's even your scent. I know you talked about scent on the episode I was watching. Having like, what do people smell when they're around me? What do people feel? How much am I talking? How much am I listening? How much am I asking? I think it's such a huge part of personal branding. And then you get to the aesthetics of it. I'm always gonna wear my yellow hat, I'm always gonna have on my silver earrings, and and just like building up that repetition, I think is a bizarre.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:56

Very my Angela moment. People people will forget what you said, uh what you did, but they'll remember how you made them feel.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:03

Oh, yeah, my Angelo, that's my girl.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:05

And they'll remember how you smelled.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:06

Do you think that because I talk about this, and my mom tells me this all the time I feel like being black gay men, where often a lot of people can be intimidated by us because of our presence in the room. Do you all of them feel like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

Yes. Well, what could have been a really great situation at Fatherly and Bustle really turned into a situation where I was competing because it felt like where you hired me to shine, my shine also intimidated my um management, and that created a conflict when men are competing over who's an alpha when one of us is not even attempting to be one.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:42

I think that's a recurrent issue I have with being a black man who shines in a lot of professional spaces, and and you know, trying to navigate other people's ego as they internalize me being who I am, which is just me being who I am.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:57

Yeah, that's how I feel too. A lot of times I'm like, oh yeah, your boyfriend husband like me better than you. So that's all I'm gonna say. Whenever people see our jobs, they think all the glitz and glamorous. But my neighbors, because a few of them they know I give them products. One of my neighbors said, When I watch Devil Wears Prada 2, now I understand why your industry is going through it. Because my friend said the first 10 minutes of the movie when Andy Sachs got let go. Sorry to spoil it for the people, but that's what happens. You can go on Wikipedia, they'll give you hold of plot things. When she got let go by a text, I was like, oh yeah, because I knew someone that got let go by a text. He was a fashion editor. And then, you know, in the movie, they had a meeting with like DOR that was their advertisers. People don't understand advertisers are a big part for a magazine to be published. And, you know, one one um guy wanted to buy the magazine and then they wanted to cut the freelance budget, they wanted to let go the fashion department. I'm like, this is that's the nature of the industry. So people don't see that part. But I always tell people if you if you want to see where our industry is, go watch Devil Wears product if one is.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:08

So we we we're gonna see changes in the New Yorker, in the New York magazine, the strategist. We we we don't know what that's gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:14

And acquisitions happen all the time. Like I got let go from Woman's World at first for woman, like after the acquisition. I was a contract commerce editorial assistant. Love my job. When we got acquired by A360 Media, it's not even a part of them no more. Well, the magazine no longer exists. Like I got let go, my whole team got let go, and then what was it last year when Woman's World First Woman folded? So that happens on industry. Folded means the magazine is no longer existing. So like think of like self-magazine that just got folded.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:45

Or fatherly.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:46

Fatherly. Or glamour. Now glamour's a commerce uh magazine now. So this happens all the time. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:53

It's it's just yeah, the website, right? And it's all like shopping content.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:57

Yeah. They literally let go the whole time. It's people don't people don't get they don't see that part. They really don't. And it's just it breaks my heart when people be like, oh Lair, I would love to like have your job. I'm like, girl, girl, I'm like, you see me struggling with this matcha right here. But yeah, you it's just that's the nature of the industry. Like, people don't see that part. They think of all like the free stuff and everything. They don't see, I mean, our paycheck doesn't really cover majority of our rent. Sometimes we have to have a second job. People see, they think that, oh, we live in like these high lavish, like luxury buildings. I'm like, girl, I live in New Jersey.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:34

Like which can be lavish.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:36

Which could be, I mean, it's lavish, but like I live in New Jersey. There's people that live in walk-ups, and people live so at home with their families because they can't afford it. I think about that video where Blake Duby, there's a TikTok video where she says, for black people, it is expensive to dream. And when I told her, I remember when I met up with her, I said, look, that video resonated with me because when I was doing PR, I had two jobs. I had two additional jobs. I was working at Crunch Bentness, and I was working as a temp feeding this one tech company because I got bills to pay. Like my two-week paycheck was like what? Almost a thousand dollars. And I my rent was like $1,700. I was oh, baby, I gotta have us. It's funny that you said that.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:17

I have a friend that recently referred to my career as a dream, and kind of like the sometimes dream don't come true conversation, and I was offended by that because it's it's it's sad that what is a normal career to a lot of people when it's a black guy, is a dream because it's so unlikely that I will be able to sustain myself anymore. Scary.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:39

But are you the only person in your family that's being a beauty editor? Because I'm the only person.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:44

Okay. Do you feel as though, like, because I my therapist tells me this all the time a lot of times, family members, even like your parents, who could be your biggest cheerleaders, but your own biggest advocates and critics, do you feel as though they could be intimidated by you because you're out doing your thing rather than doing a traditional job?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:02

For different reasons. I've certain people in my family have always been intimidated by me, you know. And that's just my my family was the first time I ever heard, who do you think you are? You know, and became like existential. Wait, who what does that mean? You know, so yeah, I think again, like when we go, when we go back to being young, black, gay, and a man, there's so much hyper policing that provokes hyper self-consciousness, you know what I mean? So maybe not necessarily because of my career and beauty, but even just wanting to be a kid to like get out of the projects. I I got teased for that because you think you're better than everybody. So you have to learn how to be okay with wanting more than what you already have and ignoring when other people internalize it. Yeah, which is a journey that I had to go on as an adult.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:49

I love when people ask me, Oh, what are you doing? What are you doing? I'm working. That's my response to everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:55

Speaking of working, it's Pride Month.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:58

Last question to wrap things up, because with all the guests we've been asking, just to really highlight the pride of it all. What was your gay awakening?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:07

Hmm. I'm trying to think of my gay awakening.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:10

Okay. I was prepared for this question.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:12

For reference, they both did a lot of research prior to these episodes, so they knew what they were gonna do with something.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:16

Yeah, true, true editors. True editors. What is going on, what are we walking into? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:22

So Tupac. I get around.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:26

Really? Tupac? Not too much on that. Not too much.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:30

So the the music video, you know. I would say this was one of the first. No, because LL Cool J really was the first first track.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:39

That's all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:40

So I have to say, so it's yeah, LL Cool J live on MTV. He had on a let me try to be appropriate. He had on a pair of sweatpants. That was my gay awakening.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

And then you don't gotta be appropriate.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:52

That was there, but definitely Tupac and I get around video. He was just like jumping around and running around with his like shorts and no shirt on, and it was like in the pool. And I remember just being like, Oh, like I gotta be around when this video comes on again. That was definitely like me recognizing things.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:11

MTV was very homoerotic back in the day. I will I will never forget R.I.P. D'Angelo. How does it feel?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:20

I've even written about that. And I'm aging myself, but really, even like Jean-Claude Van Dam, and I think it was double impact, he does a split.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:27

Oh that split. I was like, I'm gay. So there's that.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:32

You know what? I think mine was 50 Cent in LOK. Oh. No, because the Candy Shop music video. Um, LOK, Headstrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:43

It really is LOK. For me, it's the boy Wet Fine stayed fine. Because I love watching the last holiday with him and Queen Lucia, and he looks so good in that movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:53

When I say panties down to the ankles, dripping wet, and it's still sitting in there, that is me every time I see.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:59

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:00

Listen.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:00

What if I tell him it's like, I don't want to be inappropriate, and you're like, panties wet? Inappropriate.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:06

I'm always trying to be like American tweet, which I'm not.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:10

Panty, when I say panties down to the ankles, dripping wet, and it's still standing there. I see I see them on TV screen, girl.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:17

I would definitely LL MTV Live. I think it was Red Adidas wetpants, if I'm not mistaken, or even him and Crushed Groove in the scene where he, I think he he steps, he comes into the office and performs really quick. I was a kid, like, wow, like that's a man.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:35

I gotta I gotta look this up now. I'm gonna be looking up.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:38

Computer.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:39

Computer, show me LL Cool J.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:41

That being said, thank you to our heavenly thoughty, Selim and Larry, for joining us in this episode. We'll have all their socials linked down below. And make sure you listen. Give us a five-star review on what platforms?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:54

Everywhere. We're at Apple, Spotify, YouTube, give us the thumbs up. YouTube, let us know your gay awakening or your awakening in the comments. Your awakening.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:06

Thanks for watching, guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:08

Bye bye.