Divine Skintervention
Divine Skintervention is an angelic exploration of skincare, beauty and culture. Hosted by cosmetic chemist Ramón Pagán and board-certified dermatologist Dr. Angelo Landriscina, each episode delves deep into the phenomena defining aesthetics, personal care and the current zeitgeist to unlock the celestial truths surrounding beauty… with a side of sass.
Divine Skintervention
Skincare Rules to Break
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As science-focused as Angelo and Ramon are (its their heavenly DUTY!), this episode of Divine Skintervention touches on “rules” on skincare social media that aren’t really rules. No, it’s not sacrilege to use your exfoliants during the day. The only commandment in our bible? Sunscreen every day please! Amen
Ramón
https://www.instagram.com/glowbyramon/
https://www.tiktok.com/@glowbyramon
https://www.youtube.com/glowbyramon
Angelo
https://www.instagram.com/dermangelo
https://www.tiktok.com/@dermangelo
https://www.youtube.com/dermangelo
Hi, Angelo.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Ramon. Shit. Will ASMR moment?
SPEAKER_04Oh shit, I'm not an even document. You're a man of a certain age.
SPEAKER_00Certainly.
SPEAKER_04Certainly.
SPEAKER_00A certain age.
SPEAKER_04You have been a professional in the skincare space for a minute. But realistically, like when do you really remember like using skincare, skincare?
SPEAKER_00I think my first recollection of skincare products was making potions in the family bathroom back in the day. Did you ever do this? No. Oh, I feel like this is an almost universal experience where you just start putting everything together.
SPEAKER_04Very drunk elephants in it.
SPEAKER_00And like a little cup, and then potion.
SPEAKER_04All of my skincare was my mom's, and if she ever caught me going through her stuff, like she'd be so pissed.
SPEAKER_00My mom had so much stuff that was expired because like she would buy and buy and buy, and then I would just like put it all together. And sometimes it's like because the chemistry of it, it would like start foaming or turn weird colors, and like I could be entertained for hours doing that, just mixing stuff together and seeing what happens. Okay. But I think the first product that I remember taking from my mom and using is St. Ives Apricot Scrub. Was it around back then? It's been around since like the 70s or something. The dinosaurs. Since the dinosaurs, mama.
SPEAKER_04And that's why they're not around anymore.
SPEAKER_00Well, oh, the dinosaurs. I'm like St. Ives, she's still here. After the nuclear apocalypse, there's gonna be Roaches, Cher, and St. Ives Apricot Scrub. Um But yeah, I don't know why. Like she loved that stuff and she still she still uses it sometimes.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_00I don't know why I thought that was like a normal thing to do to your your face every day, but No, I had a friend who had gorgeous, gorgeous skin, and I'm like, what's your secret?
SPEAKER_04She's like, Saint I scrub. And I would use that like three times a day.
SPEAKER_00Three times a day.
SPEAKER_04Sand my face. I had really bad acne. So like that desperation of like, I I want skin like yours, regrets.
SPEAKER_00I yeah, no, I had really bad acne as a teen, and at one point I was like using three cleansers in succession, and it was like sal acid followed by uh BP, benzoyl peroxide, followed by sulfur. Like it was yeah. My face was on fire. It was not the right thing to do.
SPEAKER_04Our par I don't know if it's because of your parents, but our my parents are that generation of like, no, you have acne because your skin's dirty and you're too oily. Like you need to overcleanse it to strip it of the oils and you won't break out. And there was a specific Neutrogena like bar, the one that's like the see-through ambery color.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That one that I would use.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. That was the one I'd use a lot, but I use it like three or four times a day, especially because like during the summers, I was just going to Puerto Rico, so it's like really hot, you're sweaty, you're like oily, and it had horrible acne. And so, yeah, overcleansing was like the solution, but we know we know better now.
SPEAKER_00I have to hand it to my dad, Dermangelo Sr. At a certain point, he was like, You're doing too much. He was like, I think your acne is worse because you're like overwashing it. You need to be gentler.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He was right.
SPEAKER_04Shout out to him. Which is really funny, it's like the I don't think the acne would have been such an issue for me mentally if my family was not always pointing it out and talking about it.
SPEAKER_00Really? They were like, wow.
SPEAKER_04Like my parents specifically.
SPEAKER_00Damn.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. But then again, it's like, uh, first of all, genetic, it is their fault that I had acne. Um, and my first skincare discoveries and mistakes and failures were because of my mom and using her products. We did have proactive in the house. Um because ironically, she had acne, but she also had very sensitive skin and rosacea.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, and she was very prone to reacting to products. So why she had proactive? I do not understand.
SPEAKER_00We've talked about it here before: benzoyl peroxide in all three steps.
SPEAKER_04But beyond that, she also had like very specific Neutrogena makeup removers and cleansers because they wouldn't cause her skin to react. Mind you, I've given her so much product now that she is fine using, no issues, no reactions. So a testament to how skincare has evolved.
SPEAKER_00What does my mom love? Like, it's I feel like my mom will always love um something that's really expensive that I get in PR once and I can never get again. Like, she she loves stuff from Alginist, which I like them too.
SPEAKER_03Are they still around?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. They make an eye cream that, like, I'm not usually an eye cream person, but it's gaggy.
SPEAKER_04They had they were in Sephora when I worked in store and they had like a couple skews, but I'm just like, no one's buying this. They're in Paracone.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Pericone's been around forever.
SPEAKER_04No, I know, but I I still really don't know much about that brand or what the tea is or like why it was at Sephora in the first place. It wasn't there for long.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Or what else does my mom like that I get her? Oh, she really loves philosophy.
SPEAKER_04An OG brand.
SPEAKER_00An OG brand. Like, because she used to buy that stuff on QVC or something. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Is there anything from that era that you still use?
SPEAKER_00Ooh, from back in the day.
SPEAKER_04Or that you've like tried again since then? I have an answer for this for me.
SPEAKER_00Um, I mean, for me, there are various different products that I used through the years that come back again and again, like Cedophil's Gentle Cleanser, which has been reformulated since then, but still really nice. It's the basics, like you know, the original Cera V cream. There's certain things that when I was going through my derm training, actually, it's like we always had samples of it around. So I got used to it, like Neutrogena Hydro Boost. Uh, almost everybody, if I made them a little sample baggy, they got some of that because there was always a lot of it around, so I always add it too. Um, that's when I fell in love with Aquafour also. Well, no, actually, sorry, my love for Aquafour started when I was on Accutane for the first time, but rough. Biore pore strips, that has been with me for a long, long time.
SPEAKER_04You are the face and advocate for those pore strips.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Biore called me up. I haven't heard from you in a while.
SPEAKER_04Have you done an ad with them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I did a whole series with them. Good. Which was gaggy.
SPEAKER_04Very gaggy. Literally, you are always putting people on and like the biggest advocate for like they're not as bad as you think they are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh my face was literally on displays in drugstores for pore strips.
SPEAKER_04Wow, that's gaggy.
SPEAKER_00See, that was a full circle moment. Also, jump scare.
SPEAKER_04What? Can you imagine? Like you're shopping at the store and you see like Dermiangelo. Yeah, I I could imagine. You wake up every morning, look in the mirror.
SPEAKER_00And there I am. Bad bitch.
SPEAKER_04In terms of like my journey, so um, I told you in a prior episode, I don't know if it actually aired, we um my first Vogue I ever bought, I was like fifth 13, I was like 1314 era, and in it, one of the models talked about how the best beauty secret she ever got told was sunscreen, daily sunscreen. Be very diligent with this. I was like, you know what? I'm gonna wear sunscreen every day. And the first one I got was the Neutrogena Clear Face or Clear Skin, Clean, whatever it's called. Um, and I recently bought it again. And things have changed with sunscreens, especially like what ingredients are in vogue to use, and they have reformulated it to remove octinoxate and oxybenzone, probably. So it feels and performs very differently now. And I'm like, I don't remember this being so powdery.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just so you all know, like it's very normal for things to be reformulated over time. So us talking about stuff that we used when we were 15, 20 years ago. Yeah, like it's not gonna be the same now. Correct. Even if the the name on the bottle is the same and they're trying to achieve the same thing, it's gonna be different.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and that's the one thing. I'm trying to get back into Neutrogena sunscreens, and they have some bangers, but I'm like, let me try my first sunscreen again. And it's a fully chemical sunscreen, but there's so much powder mattifier in there that it just collects in like my hairline and my eyebrows, and it somehow is still greasy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Sometimes with the the mattifying products or anything with sunscreen, really, if you have facial hair, it's hard.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Especially a lot of the mineral sunscreens. Yeah. Because if you're gonna get white cast on your skin, imagine if you have dark facial hair.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. Thick, dark facial hair.
SPEAKER_00Thick with two C's.
SPEAKER_04My my my uh pre-work skincare routine when I was like 18, 19, 20 was the Neutrogena Clear Face and then Maybelline Fit Me Foundation on top.
SPEAKER_00Ooh.
SPEAKER_04And I would set it with the Maybelline Translucent Powder or ELF powder. I used a lot of elf back in the day too.
SPEAKER_00The first makeup I ever wore was I got a Maybelline Fit Me concealer for under my eyes, and it still slaps. It's still really good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and it's funny because I think Maybelline Fit Me the OG foundation is a dupe for Fantasy foundation, but Maybelline was there first. So who duped who?
SPEAKER_00Somebody got duped. Okay. Ramon, I think a lot of the reason that people find it hard to get into skincare is that there are so many rules.
SPEAKER_04Or are there people overcomplicate it? I think I blame Reddit for this a lot too. I'm like Reddit's biggest hater, because they're my biggest hater too. Um, yeah. What people are talking shit on you on Reddit? Yeah, people have people probably talk shit about you too.
SPEAKER_00They talk shit about everyone. Maybe like once a year I'll look at Reddit to see if anybody's saying anything about me, and they don't really say negative stuff. They're just like, oh, he talked about this. That's it.
SPEAKER_04No. I mean, especially when I was first starting out, there was a lot of shit to be said. Really? Oh my god. I had a friend message me, and like this friend is nowhere in the skincare space or world or anything. He texts me, he's like, hey, just so you know, you're like on the front of Reddit. And I was like, okay.
SPEAKER_00Oh, those were the days.
SPEAKER_04It was crazy. But, anyways, um, I think that the Reddit community, they just get a really what's a skincare equivalent of like a red pilled? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And red creamed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04They uh it's just an overcomplication and like a go touch grass situation. But I think when you really hyperfixate on a specific thing. So for example, having really oily, very acne-prone skin, you are trying to figure out and manage a chronic skin condition, acne, and you're like trying to resort to okay, well, what could it be? Especially like the comitogenic factor of ingredients and all that. There's a lot of hyperfixation and a lot of what's a nice word to say this? Overthinking. Oh, that's a nice word, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, people are overthinking a lot, and I think they're overcomplicating it for themselves because they're getting into the minutiae down into the weeds.
SPEAKER_04Minutia, that's a gorgeous word. That's a great name for a girl.
SPEAKER_00That would be a great name for a girl. Minutia. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Minutia.
SPEAKER_00Especially if she was petite.
SPEAKER_04Oh. Tiny drag queen name. There you go.
SPEAKER_00Minutia. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04Please welcome to the stage, minutia. Minutia.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, I think I get a lot of questions either in my DMs or my weekly AMA that I do on Instagram or my comments, where I could tell that people are overthinking.
SPEAKER_04And I blame I this well, I know this episode will have gone live by now, but there's a lot of people who also just, for the sake of engagement and content, they make videos confusing people too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, people make up rules too. So it's not that deep. I mean, I think we've talked about here, like Korean sunscreens are made for the Korean sun. So if you live other places, they're not gonna work. Totally made up. Totally made up.
SPEAKER_04You have to wait to layer your skincare products.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay. Let's start out with this one because this is something that I get asked about all the time. They're like, do you wait a minute or do you wait until everything dries down to apply the next product? Or do you wait 20 minutes before you apply retinoids or things like that? No. Slap that stuff on. It doesn't need to dry. The thing with retinoids is like theoretically they're gonna penetrate more if the skin's wet. But I mean, just let it dry then. There's nothing saying it has to be 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_04Maybe that's what they have people do in trials of the prescriptions, but yeah, and even still, it's like the increase in penetration is not like this substantial difference, and that's more so if you are more sensitive or irritation prone, in which case, just like sandwich method. The only thing you really have to wait is sunscreen. But with sunscreen in itself, there's a lot of people who are so misinformed, and there is that white coat bias. But like as a scientist who actually studies and formulates sunscreens, your filters work automatically. Mineral, chemical, the minute they're they're always working. The 15 minutes that they you get told to wait after you apply is so that the sunscreen film formation can occur on the skin. So it's able to set down, form that even continuous film to ensure you're getting the optimal protection. Because the UV filters, they're doing a portion of the job of the sunscreen, but it's really that film forming in that even layer that really elevates the SPF. So one means of boosting SPF is just ensuring a very even continuous film on the skin. That's what that 15 minutes is for. And even still, not all sunscreens require that, in my opinion. The quick setting ones, some of them you can slap on five minutes later be good. And it's that waiting for that film formation to happen, that then afterwards you can like go in, do your makeup, all that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think there's a lot of rules around, yeah, sunscreen that people don't understand too. Like they don't even know what SPF means. They don't know how much to apply. They think that it's useless unless it's like done a very certain way. And it's just like anything's better than nothing, but Angela, you can't say that. I can't say that, but no, I agree. I take a harm reduction approach, and I feel like everybody should be wearing the right amount.
SPEAKER_04And in the ideal world, everyone is wearing the ideal amount. In the realistic world, there's apprehension around sunscreen, there's again a lot of misinformation around sunscreen, and there's just a reluctance to like be diligent with it. So I'm like, I've I can meet someone where they're at and just give them a means of applying and hopefully reapplication that they'll actually be a little bit more compliant with. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Another rule that I think is dumb. Um, and speaking of white coat bias, but uh people who say that anything over an SPF 30 is a waste.
SPEAKER_04This is one of those where yeah, you see the perspective of so for explanation, basically the numerical value on a sunscreen is essentially the way I got it taught is in a fraction, it's one over that number of the amount of photons that are able to penetrate. So it's like one out of every 30 photons, for example. And so then you get the fraction of okay, an SPF 30 protects you from 96%.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they'll say, like, yeah, it's like a 96% versus a 50% is 98%.
SPEAKER_04And then those numbers don't seem like a huge difference, but Lab Muffin was the one who was like, well, think about it the other way. You have 2% of UV radiation versus double that, almost 4% that's able to still impact you and cause damage. So yeah, like a higher number is A, more protection, but B, because people don't apply enough and they're not as compliant, not wearing enough of a higher SPF value means in the end you're hopefully getting still adequate protection to some degree.
SPEAKER_00My take on this is that I will always go with real-world data over anything else. That whole thing about what percentage it is and what that's theoretical. We have human data, we have actual studies, and more than one, in which, in settings where people were outdoors for a significant period of time, that SPF-100 was more protective against burning than SPF-50. We know this to be true in humans. So I always tell my patients, yeah, more is gonna be better, but especially when you're gonna be outdoors for long periods of time, take it up to one a 100. If you're gonna be outside all day, if you're going for a hike, if you're at the beach, if it's whatever the case may be, and you're just outdoors for long periods, go as high as you can on the SPF based on what we've seen in the literature. That said, to your point, in I think the better of these two studies that was done, they had the people apply the sunscreen themselves. They gave them instructions, but they had them apply it themselves. And if you have an SPF 100 and you're not applying enough, and you end up with an SPF 70, that's better than starting at a 30 and not applying enough and ending up with like a 10. And I think a lot of doctors uh perpetuate this idea that, oh, SPF 30 is enough. To me, I say SPF 30 is the minimum for daily use.
SPEAKER_04Correct. And then a lot of other factors come into play as well. You want to make sure you're putting on enough, but also is it sweat and water resistant? If you're going to be out for a long time, it's high UV index, high heat. So it's like those elements also have to factor in as well. It's really weird that sunscreen is such a complex and complicated thing.
SPEAKER_00But using it doesn't have to be.
SPEAKER_04Correct.
SPEAKER_00That's the thing. Like, stop questioning everything.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, just wear your sunscreen, apply enough, wear it every day. Mm-hmm. What are some other like weird rules? Um it's always the combinations for me. Like, no vitamin C and niacinamide.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, where did that come from? That's like from one study.
SPEAKER_04There was, yeah, that was like 2016 era actually, I think that came about. And it had to do, I think there was a study. Lab Muffin talked about this, I remember, because she was my first exposure to cosmetic chemistry back in the day. Um, I think there was one study that just showed the interaction between the two of them at really high temperatures.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04Like non-realistic.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so so not any setting that we would actually be using.
SPEAKER_04Correct. Um now the big one is I think vitamin C and copper peptides.
SPEAKER_00That's because the ordinary. No, no, no. Sorry, I take that back. Uh, peptides together with acids is because of the ordinary, which they recommended because they thought that peptides would denature not using acids at the same time as some of their peptides. I think they've since revised that, though, to say that um it doesn't matter as much. They said something different.
SPEAKER_04I'm not aware of that, but to me, it's just like now, especially because peptides can be a little bit finicky, copper peptides specifically. There's, I think a lot of technology used now for increased stability and efficacy of copper peptides that allow it's like with everything now. We're encapsulating everything to make it more stable and penetrate more effectively. Um so yeah, there's nothing that I'm aware of.
SPEAKER_00So vitamin C and copper peptides, I believe it's because vitamin C is a a chelator, right?
SPEAKER_04Oh wait, yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_00So vitamin C basically will grab the copper. She goes, takes it right from you.
SPEAKER_04But again, if it's encapsulated.
SPEAKER_00If it's encapsulated, it probably doesn't matter. I mean, again, real life situations are what we're thinking about. And I mean it's hard to know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Realistically, it's for me, vitamin C great in the morning. Usually copper peptides at night.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think another thing that that people talk about a lot is oh, don't use acids and retinoids at the same time.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I melt my face off every night. Depending on the day, I'll use both glycolic and BHA in my night routine, and then I'll do retinal and top.
SPEAKER_00So you can. It can be done. I think the reason that that came about was people said, oh, it's too irritating. For who?
SPEAKER_04If you have sensitive skin.
SPEAKER_00If you have sensitive skin, it might be, but you have to know thyself.
SPEAKER_04Know thyself.
SPEAKER_00Know thyself. And Ramon's self is somebody who layers two acids and retinoids together.
SPEAKER_04Oh, a thousand percent. Now you have them in the same product. I talk about remedy a lot because again, they just throw everything into one product. They have a remedy for porcise, I believe, and that has encapsulated salicylic acid and retinol.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04If I'm not mistaken. One of my favorite spot treatments is from a brand called Kinship, and it has salicylic acid and retinol in it as well.
SPEAKER_03Oh. Yeah. See? It's possible.
SPEAKER_04And like again, encapsulation reduces a lot of uh irritation potential, and it also allows for better advocacy of the actives as well.
SPEAKER_00So the idea is by putting the ingredient in the capsule, you're getting a slower release of it. Correct. It's gotta fall out of that capsule. Correct.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, it's just one of those where a lot of the rules I feel come back to, oh, it can increase irritation. And I feel like some of the professionals that recommend these things, it's because they such a high proportion of the clients and patients they see come in because of irritation-related complications, whether that's pigmentation, inflammation, all those things. So it's like, yeah, if you want to reduce the likelihood of that, you have to reduce the pigmentary uh trigger. So I get that. But also it's like one of those things that became like a blanket statement and generalization.
SPEAKER_00It's not a hard, fast rule. Yeah. I think another one is uh people talking about certain ingredients that can't be used during the day.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, back in the day it was you can't use your exfoliants in the morning.
SPEAKER_00Which, oh my god, so misguided. Because you're going to be photosensitive no matter what. Yeah, anything that causes photosensitivity, it's because of changes to the actual skin structure that we're talking about, specifically the stratum corneum and thinning it out. So if you use it at night or if you use it in the morning, that sunburn risk is still gonna be there. It's not having the actual ingredient. On your skin and then exposing it to the sun. That would be something we call a phototoxic reaction, which can happen sometimes with certain drugs that people may be taking. Or if y'all have heard of phytophotodermatitis or margarita burn. So there are certain botanicals, including limes, that if you have the juice or other components on your skin and then it gets exposed to the sun, it causes what's called a phototoxic reaction. So it results in cell death and it looks like a burn. Blister and everything. That is not what's happening with the acids in skincare.
SPEAKER_04No. And then the other end of that is the essentially like deactivation of the actives by UV radiation. Retinoids was the other one. But they've been a lot of technology has been uh created to stabilize retinoids as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Retinoids can be finicky. I do think that uh, you know, if you put tretinoin in a test tube and irradiate it with UV, yeah, it's gonna fall apart. I think there has been one small study where they had people use tret during the day and it still worked.
SPEAKER_04So my favorite is people being like, oh, you can't use retinoids and then be under like fluorescent lighting.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's crazy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04People just get so weird about things and it's like very what's the they overthink and exaggerate a lot of the aspects.
SPEAKER_00One that I've heard is, you know, I talk all the time about just splashing one's face in the morning with water rather than using a cleanser and only cleansing at night. And I've had people ask me, but what if I use retinol at night and then like I don't clean it off in the morning? Again, not gonna be a phototoxic reaction. The theoretical uh risk there of burning is due to changes in the stratum corneum. It's not having the actual ingredient on the skin.
SPEAKER_04Speaking of retinoids and skin structure, one of the biggest biggest ones. And it's really funny because I did a video about this like a year or two ago. You know the rapper Caswell? The gay rapper Caswell.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, he said something about retinol.
SPEAKER_04He said that retinoids they they thin the skin. I've had friends who use retinoids and their skin looks so much thinner. I'm like, no, because we've had studies. What's funny is the studies actually referenced, they even utilize Fitzpatrick 456 skin tone. So it's like every skin tone, we have data for this. It essentially, what's the word?
SPEAKER_00It compacts the stratum corneum, it reorganizes the epidermis, uh, so uh that part becomes more compact too, but it thickens the skin overall.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we see in the images in the studies like, no, it very much does not thin the skin. Also, why are you listening to a gay rapper?
SPEAKER_00I mean, he had some bangers back in the day.
SPEAKER_04Did he? That's no shade casual, sorry.
SPEAKER_00No, no shade. Don't come for us. Um, but yeah, I think another thing that that people don't get with retinoids is the initial like irritation that you're getting. People think it's just like you're getting inflamed and irritated, and yeah, that's part of it, but the flaking actually comes from uh a reorganization of the epidermis that we're seeing. Like it's the compacting and certain layers coming off.
SPEAKER_04So science.
SPEAKER_00Science.
SPEAKER_04I feel like my biggest thing is a lot of people who they're not first of all, again, I think I've talked about this before. Skin expert is not really a category or something that you can get licensure for. And you have a lot of people talking about the means and ways you can layer products, or should it be layering products? Milky toner is a very contentious product category.
SPEAKER_00Here's what I hate with the whole milky toner thing. People are like, should I use a milky toner? And I'm like, that just refers to the marketing and what the texture is usually.
SPEAKER_04A lipid content concentration that's a little bit higher as well. That milkiness is from like oils.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so there are milky toners that are hydrating. There are some that have exfoliance in them. It's like, so uh you gotta take it on a product-by-product basis. But you love to make fun of my mannerisms, girl.
SPEAKER_03They're very animated.
SPEAKER_00I I talk with my hands. I'm Italian American.
SPEAKER_04So Okay, Gaga. That's why you love her. You see so much of yourself in her.
SPEAKER_00Right? An Italian girl from New York? That's me.
SPEAKER_04Just an Italian girl from New York.
SPEAKER_00But um a lot of the talk about layering, it probably doesn't matter what order we put stuff on in. Just sunscreen goes last.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's the thing, is you have again white coat bias people who are skincare experts. What is that? Uh, basically saying, like, no, like, you don't understand. So you have these oils, and we know that oils they tr they they form a cap and they don't let water penetrate. So why are you putting your water-based serums on top of your milky toners? And when it's one of those, we're like, oils are not as occlusive as you think they are. Also, a chat GPT definition of an ingredient isn't the most accurate thing. And a lot of other factors factor into ingredient penetration and occlusivity of a product. Are milky toners technically watered down moisturizers? It depends a lot on again the lipid concentration of that.
SPEAKER_00What's a good milky toner that you like?
SPEAKER_04Oh my god, I love so many. Um Bioma is a really nice one that's really lightweight. I love you talk about exfoliating ones, the prequel milk peel or whatever it's called. That on the body, that on the booty is crazy.
SPEAKER_00On the oh milk on the booty. I like the half and half.
SPEAKER_04I actually haven't used that one. I think that leaves on the heavier side of things, but um, I equal that to the Laneige cream skin as well.
SPEAKER_00Ooh, which is nice.
SPEAKER_04It is nice. A very low, low, low low viscosity, milky toner moment. That's crazy technology right there. It's hard to stabilize an emulsion that thin. Um, I like Bloom effects this a lot, the bi phase. It's because I like the the soothing story behind that one. And I find it it has a higher like oil phase concentration, I think, but it's still really lightweight on the skin. But yeah, basically just layer after your serums, I guess, if it really matters that much to you.
SPEAKER_00I usually say like if you want to framework, go thinnest to thickest. So cleanse, put things on thinnest to thickest. So if it's like what I call a solution, which is like a facial spray, a toner, an essence, whatever it's all the same thing. Put that. If you have a serum that's a little bit thicker, put that. Then your moisturizer is probably gonna be thickest, put that, and then sunscreen's always last.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I talked about this on the episode before. When it comes to like oils in your products, because of the structure of some of the oils, they don't really pack well on the skin. That's why like a lot of oils aren't necessarily the most occlusive things, so therefore, like getting through them, it's not necessarily the most difficult thing either. And not all film formers are also occlusive. Polyglutamic acid, for example, is a polymer, but it's not blocking things from getting through. Don't know if we're complicated.
SPEAKER_00What do you say uh to people? And I've gotten this question before. Well, I'm putting on makeup after my sunscreen, so is that disrupting the film?
SPEAKER_04Here's my deal is I'm like a stippler and a pouncer when it comes to makeup, and I'm very gentle because I'm like, I don't want to disrupt the layer. Yeah, I'm gentle with it. But coming from the generation right after this world tap buff movement of bare minerals, I see people just go crazy with the buffing brush, and I'm like, that actually could be doing something.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04Close with the it does also depend on the sunscreen formulation. Some of them utilize a little bit more robust film forming polymers so that once the sunscreen sets, it's a lot more sturdy on the skin. Whereas other ones rely on a little bit more low-key film formers that can be disrupted a little bit more easy. But yeah, I just say be a little more gentle with it. The big one for me is people like, oh, but like setting spray is gonna ruin the sunscreen layer underneath. And like the 0.5 seconds that your skin is wet from a setting spray, I don't think it's gonna do that much. In my opinion.
SPEAKER_00What about? I think people get caught up in reapplication a lot too. So re-reapplying over makeup is one, which there are ways, and two, also people getting caught up in like the reapplication every two hours and not understanding what that means. It's basically it's two hours after that stuff was put on your skin. It's not two hours in the sun. And some people have asked me, wait, so I have to reapply every two hours all day. Are you in consistent UV exposure the entire day? That's the question. So it's like if you're outside all day, yeah. If you're getting direct sunlight through a window, yeah. For me. So what's the UV index? What's the UV index? That's another good question. So I'm not reapplying every two hours all day because I'm not outside most of the time. Like, for instance, here the room that we're in, I have shades on the windows that uh filter 99% of the UV. I'm not I'm not reapplying right now every two hours.
SPEAKER_04Correct. And I think it's one of those things where it's like, yes, that is a rule, but like don't overcomplicate it. And people are like, well, what I do if I go to school and then I'm in school all day and then I leave for school or leave to go back home. Like, I mean, reapply if it's functional for you. And again, what time of the day is it? What's the UV index? Are you gonna be under consistent UV exposure once you're out of school? Like those things to factor in. And I feel like some of the inelegance of American sunscreens kind of makes it a little bit difficult as well. That's why, for reapplication specifically, I do love a stick. Just be generous. We also talked about this. I am still partial to a spray if it means that you will reapply. Just make sure your face is saturated. And recently, like we've seen uh Sarah Palmira is another creator friend. She's gone viral about this because she basically shows how she applies sunscreen lotions over her makeup. She just literally just drizzles it on her face.
SPEAKER_00You did a video on this too.
SPEAKER_04Correct, because of her, but like also we've talked about this. A bunch of us have done these videos over the last few years. Sarah's was interesting because I mean she's now done it with a bunch of viral sunscreens. She'll like drizzle it on her face, spread it gently with her finger, and then she'll use like a puff or a cushion puff to like pat it in. Hannah English, Lab Muffin have done videos on this. Alicia Lardy's also done videos on this, I've done videos on this, and we've been doing it for years. It's possible to do so over makeup, and technically reapplying with a lotion is the most reliable. But I always basically say it in the context of you had an initial application, yes. And part of reapplying is the sunscreen film starts to become disrupted through friction, oil breaking through. So it becomes like, okay, you have like Swiss cheese on your face. So reapplication is kind of just like shellacking over those potential re-exposed areas just to reinforce protection that might not be as potent as it once was when you first applied two hours prior. So just reapply if you're under consistent UV exposure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think there are a lot of people that think that certain formulations of sunscreen, like, oh, well, this is fine for application. I hear that with sticks all the time. Like, this shouldn't be your primary sunscreen, but it's fine for reapplication. An argument, if you will. If you're not gonna apply enough of it and you're rubbing this thing over your face and disrupting whatever film was there, why is it a good thing for reapplication? You have to put on a lot of it, I think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I actually had a conversation yesterday about this because it's it's very formula dependent as well. The way that deposition works with a stick formulation is dependent on the waxes. I mean the waxes actually. Silicones make a big factor as well, but not all stick products, and this goes for lip balms, lipsticks, cream blushes, all those things. The amount and the way that they deposit on the skin changes. So it's the general is like, yeah, like four to six swipes per area. But I'm talking like one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, like that. To ensure that each area I'm swiping over has those so many layers of products to get hopefully what's advertised on the stick. I tested it for the one I did with Beauty of Dosa, and I think five swipes per area got me the correct death position.
SPEAKER_00So it's possible, just not the way that people are using it.
SPEAKER_04Correct. And I love a sun stick, especially for like back of my hands while I'm driving.
SPEAKER_00Mm-mm.
SPEAKER_04So that way I can be hella liberal, and then also I'm not getting the product on my fingers, so I'm not like slipping on the steering wheel.
SPEAKER_00What about uh gloves?
SPEAKER_04You know, if Soleil ever launched a glove, I would potentially wear that. Because UV protect my thing is the UV protection gloves that are launched give very medical. They look like um wrist braces. Well, I need a cunt uh UPF glove.
SPEAKER_00Soldashe.co. I mean, by the time this is out.
SPEAKER_04Soldashe.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04That's a cute name for a girl. Soldashe. Soldashe, come here.
SPEAKER_00Soldashe.
unknownWell, mama.
SPEAKER_00Name your pug that.
SPEAKER_04No, my first pug's gonna be named. We're deciding between either, this is a reference. If you watch Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius, the cartoon, there was a character called Bulby Strogan Stroganovsky, who looks very pug-esque. So I think one of my pugs will be called Bulbi. And the other one I thought, like, oh, what about like Miguel?
SPEAKER_00Why Miguel? Why not? You know what? Yeah, I I'm a big proponent of giving dogs human names.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So think about it. Miguel, my Latin pug. Stay tuned. If anyone has any like follows or follows, if anyone has any leads to pug adoption centers, please let me know. I'm desperate.
SPEAKER_00He wants to be hearing like the snorting and everything in his home.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god. I wish. That's the thing is when you have a husband, you already deal with that on a daily basis. And I say that as in he deals with that for me.
SPEAKER_00Oh, really? Do you snore?
SPEAKER_04Oh my god, do I sn I drool? I snore. Yeah, it's gross. Am I wrong? She's cute on the outside, but she's gross when she sleeps.
SPEAKER_00You should see the face that Jorge is making right now. He's like, it is gross.
SPEAKER_04A man in love. No, he'll hit me in the middle of the night. He'll be like, You're snoring.
SPEAKER_00I I get that from my man too.
SPEAKER_04No, Mike, just sometimes just push me over. You don't have to wake me up. Jesus.
SPEAKER_00You're snoring.
SPEAKER_04Ugh. Marriage is a privilege, it's a gift. And marriage with a pug would be even cuter.
SPEAKER_00Aw, who knows? Maybe on an episode of the podcast soon you will be seeing a pug.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god, I would cry if I got a pug. Ugh. Anyways, any more rules?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so Roman, where do you think a lot of these rules come from?
SPEAKER_04Um, not to like drag anyone specifically in this space, but I feel like, especially when on sun care, I feel like there's a lot of textbooks in skin professional industries that have very outdated information. So that's why we see it a lot with derms sometimes, where the oh, mineral sunscreens, they form a physical barrier that reflect UV. That's not true. Um, also, and actually it's a lot of dermatological journals that I've read, but also marine biology ones that talk about the impact of sunscreen on coral. But it's the context has to be understood, and also what is the conclusion of those studies? And a lot of them actually aren't conclusive, but the initial surface level makes it seem like, oh, there is an impact there for. We need reef-safe sunscreens. That's another thing. Um, so I feel like professionals and experts in their field touch on things that they're not specifically trained in, and therefore, because they are themselves recognized as a professional, whatever the information that they are saying is perceived as true in fact, even though it's not always the case.
SPEAKER_00Okay, clock it. Um, I think that's part of it. I also think part of it is just people online who, you know. What? People online. Well, no, I mean who are getting too down in the weeds or try to learn a little bit too much, I think, and then like trip themselves up. I also think there's a lot of misinformation spread by brands.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, actually, redact my answer. Delete what I said. Um, a lot of marketing is really, I think, responsible for that. I agree with that. There's I always complain about this. There's never scientists in the marketing rooms, and though, so therefore, marketers, again, who have no relevant scientific experience, they're like, what sells? What are the buzzwords?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. A lot of it is is marketing based on fear, too, some of the time, because that works. But uh, I mean, yeah, consumers hear those things and take it to be true. I also think, and we've touched on this before, too, that uh a lot of uh esthetician programs they get a lot of their education from brands, and so then you have people that are skincare professionals that are repeating basically marketing information because they they learned that in their training, but it came from a brand. Um, I tend to think of this whole thing of like moisturizer makes your skin lazy and you need a hydrator, which I think we've talked about here before, but it's like, oh, well, that's bullshit.
SPEAKER_04Or the one where like you can train your scalp to be less oily by not shampooing it so often.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it coming from brands then being repeated by other people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And again, the white coat bias is a big factor, but also like nowadays anyone can claim whatever credentials they want on social media doesn't help the situation either.
SPEAKER_00Sometimes people just put on the white coat and they don't say what they are.
SPEAKER_04Me when I get cold.
SPEAKER_00Actually, I I really do only wear my white coat at work when I'm cold. But no, but what I mean by that is that people try to pose as authority figures because it works, and they won't say I'm a doctor.
SPEAKER_04Also, a very inflammatory reactionary video that's somewhat negative has great engagement. And that's the thing, is people are just trying to trying to get a viral hit and trying to get a lot of followers and a lot of views, but it's like the science, the fact isn't always there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think we're we're seeing it right now. A perfect example of this is uh the brand Sun Powder. Have you seen this? No, it's basically it's a polium supplement. So for those of you who don't know, polypodium leucatomatous is this plant where the extract can be partially protective against uh burning in a way. Uh it is not a replacement for sunscreen, but this brand's entire marketing is putting their dermatologist founder in front of the camera and being like, rate these sunscreens.
SPEAKER_04Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00And he's like not even giving reasons. It's like, oh, if it's a spray, it's a no. If it's a chemical sunscreen, it's a no. And some of the marketing, even though they say, Oh, this isn't a replacement for sunscreen, they they tried to do an MED test on it, I think. The results look funny because they're like still red, just not as red.
SPEAKER_04And I'm like, that's not they do an MED test. It's a supplement.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_04How are they doing the control?
SPEAKER_00How are they doing they so they do from what I understood, they delivered a certain amount. It's not an exact MED test because they're not looking for the minimum. They deliver a dose of UV on some of the skin, take a photo, then give them the supplement, and I think after an hour repeat it on a different area of skin. Okay. And look at the difference in erythema, which by design is not a good test.
SPEAKER_04No. MED stands for is it median erythral dose? Minimal. Minimal erythemal dose. And like you compare with and without product, average it out. That's how you get an SPF value.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. They're looking at the amount of UV needed to cause redness in the skin.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. Right now it's also pri I in Brooklyn, especially, there's a lot of primarily pure sunscreen ads. Like, what does it say? Don't trust your sunscreen, trust the sun, which makes no sense to me. Because then you're also a sunscreen brand still.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's it's like a zinc sunscreen that uses beef tallow.
SPEAKER_04Very clean, very natural. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00With animal products. Like, come on. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I saw a video recently basically being like, we're in this era because of political instability, and it's a trend that's happened in history a lot, there tends to be a devaluation and a lot of mistrust around academics, research, and science. But then ironically, it's kind of like a the rich and the powerful are the ones kind of leading that as well. RFK. But we see this cycle happen a lot where it's like we we don't trust big science, they're hiding something from us. And it's like, okay. My favorite is like people swear castor oil is like the big cure all for everything. But I'm like, if castor oil actually did all that you think it does, someone would figure out a way to really monetize that and privatize that. Because if castor oil was this miracle cure, someone capitalism, someone would try to make themselves rich off that.
SPEAKER_00My whole thing is like, have you ever met scientists or academics? They can't shut up. What would they be keeping from you? You love to talk.
SPEAKER_03I love to talk about sunscreen.
SPEAKER_00Hence why you have a podcast. Exactly. We love to hear ourselves. So if I was hiding anything, it would not be hidden for long.
SPEAKER_04We also mind you, like, we always try to reference a study and try to reference the evidence and provide that for you. And I complained how those studies are so hard to read. So I have to read it for you. I'm not happy, but I'll do it.
SPEAKER_00Also, these people spreading misinformation, they're not citing anything. They're just saying whatever the hell they want. And sometimes they try to cite studies and the studies aren't even saying what they think they're saying. Exactly.
SPEAKER_04I'm like, you can't read an abstract and assume everything. That's that's the big thing with the a lot of the reef safe stuff is like when you actually look at concentrations and get into the breakdown of all the different studies, none of them are really conclusive. And also, concentration is very like, oh, the amount of sunscreen that they actually consider toxic to reef environments, it's like you would never find that in an actual real life environment.
SPEAKER_00Also, why do people care that much about coral, but they don't care about people dying of skin cancer?
SPEAKER_04What's that one meme where it's like, oh, I I can excuse racism, but I draw the line of animal cruelty or whatever? Sorry that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. But again, it's like, okay, you have all this fixation on reef safe sunscreens, not a real term, but you're not considering the impact of pollution. The actual very real impact of climate change and all the systems involved in making that so severe, like it's a much better picture. And like people always come for the cosmetic industry, is always the first scapegoat for some reason. Misogyny. Yeah, endocrine disruption. But I'm like, you're worried about chemicals in your sunscreen, but you drive a Ford F450 and drink Dr. Pepper, sweetie.
SPEAKER_00Dr. Dr. Pepper?
SPEAKER_04What does Dr. Pepper have to do with it? I'm very anti-Dr. Pepper, just because it's gross, but also anti-Texas.
SPEAKER_00I don't like Dr. Pepper, but I do like the assumption that Dr. Pepper is a woman. Feminist.
SPEAKER_04Ally.
SPEAKER_00Ally.
SPEAKER_04On that note. On that note.
SPEAKER_00Um, definitely like five star us. Subscribe if you haven't so that you could get Divine Skin Intervention every week.
SPEAKER_04We are consistent with this.
SPEAKER_00We've been working our asses off to get you this podcast every single week. Some people have asked us when is season one over?
SPEAKER_04Let's just say never. Yeah, forever and never girl.
SPEAKER_00We're here for you.