Beyond The Bandage

Episode 4: First Aid Training behind the scenes, package updates and NIFAT

• Susan • Season 1 • Episode 4

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 51:07

What does quality first aid training actually look like, and are increasingly shorter courses affecting student confidence and real-world outcomes?

In this episode of Beyond the Bandage, the ABC First Aid team sits down with Andy Panes, founder of the National Institute of First Aid Trainers, better known as NIFAT.

With more than 15 years of experience running his own business and supporting first aid trainers throughout Australia, Andy brings extensive knowledge across first aid education, assessment, compliance and professional development.

Andy has also contributed at an industry level through the First Aid Industry Reference Committee with SkillsIQ, including helping shape updates to Australia’s first aid units of competency.

Throughout the conversation, Andy discusses:
• His journey into emergency care and first aid training
• How Australia’s first aid units of competency are developed
• Why changing a unit can affect the entire VET sector
• Whether CPR competency can be credit transferred into a first aid course
• Why competency units technically do not expire
• The importance of professional development for trainers
• What separates an average trainer from a great trainer
• Cognitive overload and why trainers should remove unnecessary information
• Whether first aid courses are becoming too short
• The balance between online learning and face-to-face training
• Why student confidence should matter more than course duration
• The increasing pressure of price and time competition
• The challenges facing trainers and assessors
• The upcoming IFAT Conference in Adelaide
• Why keeping first aid education simple can produce better outcomes

Andy also explains why a strong trainer is not necessarily the person who shares the most information. Instead, it is someone who understands what students genuinely need to remember when an emergency occurs.

This is an important discussion for first aid trainers, RTO owners, assessors, workplace safety professionals and anyone responsible for delivering quality first aid education.

Subscribe to Beyond the Bandage for more conversations exploring the real people, experiences and impact behind first aid.


00:00 Welcome to Beyond the Bandage
00:23 Meet Andy Panes from NIFAT
01:18 Andy’s introduction to emergency care
02:21 Inside the First Aid Industry Reference Committee
04:05 Why changing competency units is so complicated
06:25 Will first aid units change again soon?
08:06 CPR credit transfers and competency requirements
09:34 Do first aid and CPR certificates expire?
11:01 NIFAT’s approach to recent CPR training
12:07 Why Andy created NIFAT
13:43 Growing NIFAT to more than 800 members
14:47 Why professional development matters
16:32 Updating a certificate is not professional development
18:44 What makes a great first aid trainer?
20:03 Why trainers should remove the fluff
21:42 Are first aid courses becoming too short?
24:02 The problem with assessment-only courses
26:07 Why fewer trainers want shortened classes
28:20 Student outcomes should determine course duration
30:03 Eight-hour courses and cognitive overload
31:31 Finding the right blended-learning model
33:34 When less training can produce better results
35:02 The pressure of price and time competition
37:35 Can the first aid industry agree on a standard?
39:06 Why regulation is unlikely to solve everything
41:01 The most competitive area of first aid training
43:01 Why high-quality trainers still stand out
45:06 Engaged trainers and professional development
46:17 The upcoming IFAT Conference in Adelaide
48:03 Conference speakers and practical workshops
50:02 Andy’s final advice for first aid trainers


#BeyondTheBandage #ABCFirstAid #FirstAidTraining #FirstAidTrainer #NIFAT #NIFATConference #FirstAidEducation #ProfessionalDevelopment #RegisteredTrainingOrganisation #RTO #VocationalEducation #WorkplaceSafety #CPRTraining #FirstAidCompliance #TrainerDevelopment

SPEAKER_04

Hi everyone and welcome to Beyond the Bandage, the podcast where we go beyond the textbook and into the real stories, real people, and real impact behind first aid. Because today we're not just talking about training, we're talking about purpose. We're talking about impact and we're talking about what happens when the skills we teach truly come full circle. Today we're excited to welcome someone we've genuinely loved working with over the years, Andy Paines. Andy is a founder and owner of the National Institute of First Aid Trainers, better known as NIFAT, and has also been heavily involved at industry level through the First Aid Industry Reference Committee with Skills IQ, including contributing to the latest updates to the first aid units of competency. This is why we've loved working with Andy. He has an incredible depth of knowledge across first aid, training, compliance, and assessment, backed by over 15 years running his own business and supporting trainers across Australia. Andy, we're so happy to help you have you here. Welcome to Beyond the Bandage.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you very much. I'm very pleased to be here and thank you for the invite.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. Andy, what first drew you to the industry?

SPEAKER_00

To the industry. Well, I've told this story a few times now, I suppose. It's uh uh it goes back to when I was I was at school. I mean, I've been involved actually in St. John ambulance for many years. I from the age of eight, I joined their cadet group as such. But I think the thing that really sort of stuck in my mind that I wanted to go down this emergency care path uh was returning to work, sorry, returning to school one day when I was 15 years old, and one of my neighbors came running out of uh another neighbor's house saying, Oh, come and come and help, come and help. Uh and when I got in there, um she was in cardiac arrest. So uh I started CPR, called for help, did all the things that we needed to do. Um unfortunately, she was very elderly and did pass away. But I think that sort of 20 minutes or so of doing CPR as a 15-year-old really instilled uh that yes, I that was probably a path that I wanted to go down. And and from there, um I I mean it's pretty much been my whole life now in one way or another, either emergency care first aid or first aid training. So um that's how it started.

SPEAKER_02

That's good. I feel like that's a great starting point.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. And Andy, you you chaired the first aid industry reference committee with skills IQ. Um you were part of that when there was such a significant period of change. What did that change look like from the insides?

SPEAKER_00

Um being part of uh the industry reference committee, first of all, just uh being a a committee member and then and then taking over um as the chair in in the last year or so that it was in in um uh that that it was around before Skills IQ um then changed to uh human ability now, I think it is. Um was very interesting. It was a a you're right, it was a period of change, um change of the units of competency, but it was also um leading into to COVID as well. So there were some challenges that we had there. But yeah, great experience. I suppose looking from the inside, I learned a lot of stuff around how the units are put together, how they're managed, how feedback is provided, how the units are changed over time and why they're changed, um, and stuff that I really wasn't aware of. So it's very easy, I suppose, to look from the outside and go, oh, well, you know, why is it worded like this? Or, you know, why didn't they do that or why didn't they do this? But in reality, this was a mammoth effort of organizations across the board. So not just first aid, but we're talking about people on skill, uh, sorry, on the industry reference committee that were from um uh you know um military. We had um uh you know, we had all of the big organizations, the St. John, the Red Cross, the Surf Life Saving. Um, but there were others um that really weren't there because they necessarily had a lot of knowledge around the first aid, but because they had a lot of workers maybe in their industry that actually did that unit of competency. So it's it's a challenge when you've got a lot of people that actually have uh have ideas that are great, but sometimes are conflicting. So you think, okay, well, this could be easy, we could come out with a really good product. But unfortunately, what happens is there's a lot of people that want different things. Um, so uh at the end of the day, there's compromise, there's there's challenges around specific um requirements that one industry might want that others don't. So it was very interesting. Um, great experience, and uh the people that we work with or I work with on as part of SkillsIQ and the IRC were great. And I think that ultimately they all had a passion to do good and want to actually improve them. Um, but we're at a stage now, I suppose, where that's sort of all gone. Um, but I think we left the units in a way that they shouldn't need to be touched, hopefully, for a bit. Um, because the other thing that I really learned was the impact that it has um on changing those units to the whole vet sector. So most of the um most of the people that we deal with are are generally focused on delivering first aid only. Uh whereas first aid is in that many qualifications. In fact, it's the most used unit of competency in the vet sector, that when you change it and it's part of a qualification, for some RTOs it is a big problem. And we all know that when it comes to teaching old units in new units. Mamma task mammothask. Um I think the units are in a good state to just be left for now.

SPEAKER_04

So you don't think we're gonna see a change?

SPEAKER_00

No, I don't think we're gonna see a change, not anytime soon.

SPEAKER_04

No one wants it.

SPEAKER_00

No, well, yeah, that's right. And I think that the the changes that can be done can be done in ways where the units don't need to be touched. Yeah. So we can update the first aid companion volume. And I talk about the first aid companion volume all the time because a lot of people aren't aware of it. So if you haven't got it, go and look at the first aid companion volume, because that's a document that provides advice uh on the first aid units of competency and very specific. So if you're if you've got a question about something that's in the unit or the assessment requirement, there's a good chance that we've put an answer to it in the first aid companion volume. So uh that is something that we can change or can be changed if it's needed. Whereas a whole change of the unit actually requires uh an approval where it can be funded. So there's got to be a real good cause to actually go and review those units again.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, huge, eh? That's just a snowball effect.

SPEAKER_00

It is big, it is a big task, and I even I didn't realize really at the beginning uh the implications that it had. So um I can't see a change coming. That doesn't mean there's gonna be not going to be changes in industry, but we can probably leave the units alone and do other things to make sure that people are aligned to what the industry requires or expects.

SPEAKER_04

Yep. So you'd see things very, very differently having had that experience. Um, you know, because with first aid trainers, they of course have the background and the experience, and they're reviewing the units of competency, and that's probably it. Whereas you have that background or that experience that's interconnected with multiple other industries and have that um understanding of the connection between all of the different packages, right? And it's not just as simple as change this.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's right. And the other thing that um, you know, the vet sector really pushed for uh years ago is not to have duplicate units of competency or units of competency that were just overlapping too much. So it what they wanted one unit of competency that was able to be rolled out through all industries. So um, you know, if if somebody wanted something very, very specific, um, that could be added onto this unit of competency, but we didn't want people developing their own first aid unit that then wasn't actually being managed by um a group that had experience in in the first aid industry. So um, you know, additionally from the people that are actually on the IRC, consultation then goes out to everyone. And again, it is one of the units of competency that gets the most amount of feedback when it goes out to industry consultations. So we're talking about pages and pages of feedback on every development that has to be reviewed, triaged, and decided on whether it needs to actually be included in the change. Yeah. Big process, don't recommend it. One star. Um star review. One star. Uh do not recommend. Um, but I don't think we're anywhere near at the moment needing to look at them again.

SPEAKER_04

Well, that's good news for RTOs that mainly deliver first aid, right?

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's right. And I I don't know, maybe I'll be proved wrong and there'll be a review next year. But at this point, no, I think we don't need to.

SPEAKER_04

I do have a unit of competency question, and this comes up a lot. Uh, and you're, in my view, one of the best people, if not the best person in the room to be able to explain this one. So a student completes a first aid HLT A D11.

SPEAKER_03

Yep.

SPEAKER_04

And we also issue the 009. Um so let's even say, in another example, they've done their 009 and then they realize, oh, I was actually meant to book in to do a first aid. So two months later, they book in to do a first aid, but they contact the RTO and say, Oh, I've got my 009. Could I try to credit transfer the CPR part of the first aid course?

SPEAKER_00

Yep, yeah, yeah. Good question. And it's absolutely applicable. The thing to remember with the units of competency as such, and this is the difference, I suppose, when we look at it from an ASCO point of view or a compliance point of view, compared to we look at industry standards for first aid and codes of practice and workplace requirements. A unit of competency doesn't expire. So, you know, you can do a 009 um uh zero one one whatever with whatever, and and technically, as far as the vet sector is concerned, it doesn't expire. In fact, I mean some would argue that that unit of competency shouldn't be issued again in the future. So, um, but that's a another conversation that I probably don't want to get into. But um but there are there is that aspect to it. The issue that we have in our industry is that there is that industry expectation and workplace requirement that training gets refreshed. So um, because of that, we've then got to make a decision on how um how right is it, how how um acceptable is it to credit transfer people for things when they are supposed to be doing refreshers for it in certain periods of time anyway? So if we're suggesting that someone is going to do, you know, CPR every year and first aid every three years, which you know is an industry-accepted standard, I suppose, um how long do we credit some how long do we credit someone for? So if they've got a 009 and they want to do a 011 and it's you know six months after, um, is that right, considering that they should be doing a refresher for it in six months' time anyway? There are no rules, so I can't give you a definitive answer, uh, other than you know, people need to use common sense in so much as we know people's skills and knowledge decrease very rapidly when they walk away from a course. So you could go to probably 10 different RTOs and they'll give you a different answer for this. Um, I'll give you mine, and I'm I never I never mind going on record to say these sort of things because ultimately it's just a decision that we've made internally. But we generally give people eight weeks. So we go, look, if you need to do a CPR course, or so you need to do a first aid course and you don't need a CPR, and it's within eight weeks, absolutely, we'll we'll say that yeah, we you've done that CPR bit, so maybe come in and uh, you know, an hour later or whatever. You might go to another RTO and they say, well, three months, four months, five months. There is no actual rule. But I think we need to be careful. I think we need to be, you know, understand that there is refresher training or the advice for refresher training at intervals for a reason. And we need to, I suppose, just respect that that's there.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, because you've got the vet side of things and then you've got the industry standard, and they're both like they're different.

SPEAKER_00

You can go to the ASCO help line or submit a uh a question to Ask and say, you know, what when does 009 expire? And they'll go, never. Yeah. Yeah. And then you'll go and look at the first aid code of practice and it will talk about um, you know, the recommendation for refresher training.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and and that's important, and how that refresher type style of training is then um, you know, structured in your RTO. That is gonna vary. It varies on industry, it varies on people's experience. Um, we can look at well, public courses compared to corporate courses where people are doing different roles. But um, you know, RTOs generally make a decision. Ours, we made it eight weeks.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. What inspired you to start NIFAT, National Institute of First Aid Trainers? And what gap do you see in our industry?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I suppose the the reason that that I started it was was the gap that I sort of uh identified back then, sort of back in 2014, I think it was that we started where you know I was running an RTO, we we had you know multiple trainers at that time. I think we had some some third-party providers as well. And it it was tricky to try and find professional development opportunities for trainers. Um, a lot of the bigger RTI RTOs uh did a lot of stuff internally, um, but were not really uh, I suppose, open to going and bringing that to others in the industry. So it was like, well, what am I gonna do for my trainers? You know, we can do some stuff internally, or or or maybe what we could do is is try and and put some things together where it goes out to everybody. And that's what we started. And I had uh a number of contacts still through St. John and other organizations that I reached out to and said, look, this is what I'm thinking of doing. I just want to start running some webinars, I want to start, you know, putting out some information uh to anybody. You know, how do you feel about that? And I I know that Chris Patolo was one of the first people that I called, and you guys would have seen him at the conferences before, and he'll be at the conference this year. And um he he's been great. He's he's somebody that you know is happy to share knowledge, uh, is happy to jump on a call, happy to answer questions. And uh I I sort of started to identify that there are other RTOs the same as us. They they were looking for the same thing. So membership started to grow. We started to do these webinars, uh, and we went basically from uh from a few people. I think maybe in the first year we might have had 30 or 40 members that were taking part. Um Jesse sent me through a report actually the other night to say that we're up to 800 members now. So, we've got 800 people in the, yeah, it's great. It's amazing. It's 800 people in the industry that are engaged with um improving their skills and knowledge, and uh yeah, I think it's going well. I think it I think it serves purpose. I think that it um allows people to get that external professional development because sometimes when you keep everything in-house, it can um how do I put this in a in a in in the right way? It can breed a culture of training that uh is not refreshing. Yeah. You know, if you if you if you stay internally and you don't have people come from the outside and you don't look at other opportunities, sometimes that type of professional development opportunity is not great. So that's why we bring in lots of different people, we we have different sessions, um, and I think it works. And and you guys have been involved for some time as well, which is great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I know a lot of our partners obviously are um are members with you, um, and they they send in all of their certificates to say that they've done their PD and their webinars with you, which is great. Um, how important is PD, like for professional development, obviously, but to keep current as well? As a trainer.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. I I I think really it is it's key because we're in an industry where it's not regulated very well in regards to what a first aid trainer is. So if I was to say, what is the minimum standard of a first aid trainer, what does that look like? Um, if we went down again, if we went down the compliance route, it looks like someone who holds a TAE and someone that's done a first aid certificate. Yeah. Um and and a lot of people will get away with being a first aid trainer from that. And that is, I think, slightly concerning if they are not doing things to keep themselves up to date with industry. And professional development is is really key. And you'll and you'll know you'll see trainers that have um you know done nothing, and you'll look at those that have been involved with industry and involved with professional development, and there is a clear difference in their training and the quality of the outcomes for students. So, professional development, I think, is very important, especially if you're not actually working in a clinical field.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, because where else are you getting your information from? You know, how how are you knowing that uh what you're teaching is correct? And I don't allow people in my organization to submit professional developments at the professional development that is basically a certificate of um a course they're already doing. So, for example, if you're teaching 011, going and updating your 011 is not professional development. We won't accept that at all. Um, there's no point to it because you shouldn't have learned anything new than you're already teaching.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

So you should be looking at those individual things as part of those units of competency and upskilling, getting knowledge, um, you know, trying to find out the why, the the the backstory to this injury or or this condition. So for me, PD is the absolute must. It's guidelines change, right?

SPEAKER_04

Things change.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, it changes. And but the other thing to understand is PD isn't always about learning stuff new. Um, people will often say to me, Well, you know, why would I come to that webinar when I know that? Um, or why would I, you know, take part in this exercise because I've done it before? Sometimes professional development is actually about confirming the knowledge that you have is right. So if you go to a webinar or you go to a conference and you go, uh, yeah, I knew all of that. Um, and that's what I've been teaching, I think that's just as valuable as learning something new because it's enforcing the fact that actually you're doing it right. Because if you're not going to do that, then how do you know? How do you know that you're doing it right? How do you know that you're teaching this correctly? Um, so it's just that, you know, it being able to certify yourself and go, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Having that validation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, having that validation, exactly right, validating that what you're doing is is correct. So, and I do it myself. I go to a conference, I watch something, and I go, Yeah, I learnt maybe three new things. Everything else I already knew and I'm already teaching, valuable.

SPEAKER_04

It yeah, it was worth your while. Absolutely it is. And I guess with the students in the classroom, they're looking to the trainer as the expert. So they're not not going to know any different either.

SPEAKER_00

No.

SPEAKER_04

So they're believing what this person's saying in front of them.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. And um, one thing that um that I talk about a lot is making sure that when we are teaching something, you are absolutely 100% sure that it is accurate and correct. Um, and sometimes when I've evaluated trainers working for things like enterprise RTOs, uh and they'll say something in the class and I'll go, well, that's not right. And then I have a chat chat with them afterwards and go, okay, what why did you bring this up? Why did you say that? Oh, that was something one of my previous trainers that I watched said. I'm like, that's troubling because if if you're just gonna take something at face value from someone that's delivered something in a course and you're not gonna fact check that, you're not gonna go and look for some external sources to confirm that that's true, you really shouldn't be saying it because again, that comes back to that breeding of just bad training, bad information. Yeah, you need that validation. You need to make sure that what you're saying is right.

SPEAKER_04

And it is experts, and it circulates as well, you know. What makes a good trainer?

SPEAKER_02

Ooh, I like that one.

SPEAKER_00

What makes a good trainer? Uh good. Be careful, Andy. Yeah. It's I think that you know, a lot of it comes back to what I've already said, I suppose. It's somebody that wants to engage in in professional development is good. I think it is somebody that is not trying to um pass on their knowledge to students in regards to they're not trying to make them as you know informed as as them themselves, and understanding how much they should be talking about. So, you know, one of the conversations I had a couple of months ago with someone was was a good trainer is is able to actually understand lots more about the injury, the illness, the the condition. A very, very good trainer is someone that knows what not to tell someone. Yeah. So it it's understanding that yes, I've got all this information, I've done 15 webinars on this or whatever. Now I've got to decide how much do I want to tell this person. And I keep saying to trainers, try and find a reason not to say something.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Try and find a reason not to, you know, pass on all of your knowledge because that can overwhelm students. We get into that cognitive overload, we've got to understand what do they need to know, what's going to make a difference, and what information do we want them to recall when they come across this situation? So if you're gonna tell them five different stories and you're gonna tell them, you know, a whole load of information, and then they get to the situation, they go, I just don't know what to do. Yeah, I just don't know what to do. What we want people to understand is and remember at the time is what are the things that they need to do that are gonna make a difference to patients' outcome. So, you know, if if we're talking about something like a heart attack, for example, we want them to know that the guideline says, you know, 300 milligrams of aspirin, make sure we called for help and be prepared that this person might collapse. Everything else is probably fuzz. Yeah. Yeah. So keeping it simple, keeping it to the point where what is gonna make a difference when this person leaves my training room and they're actually faced with this situation. They can. Do I want them to remember my story, or do I want them to remember exactly what they need to do that's gonna make a difference that person survive or their or their outcome long term?

SPEAKER_02

Remove the fluff.

SPEAKER_00

Remove the fluff, keep to the basics. Um, and I know that we'll talk about um our conference a little bit later on, but one of the key things that we've got at this year's conference is really around teaching. A lot of stuff around education. We've even got someone coming from uh from the UK who specializes in in in BLS and first aid education, because I think it's just as important to understand how and why we train um as it is to know what to do for anaphylaxis or asthma or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's so important. And it's interesting, Andy. You say we talk about, you know, you you mentioned three things, like basic things to do, and everything else, just leave it aside. And and I guess this brings up a topic that is something that comes up in our industry a lot and has done for many, many years. Um, I do recall during COVID, we obviously had to make some changes to how we delivered training. And I know we've spoken on this in previous podcasts as well, but duration, duration for first aid um courses or CPR. So you have um obviously you've got organizations that deliver full day face-to-face courses, and then you have um, I guess delivery modes are organizations that that shorten those durations. So again, I know you mentioned earlier, sometimes it comes down to who the people are in the room, um their experience, are they doing it for the first time? Is it a public course? Is it a group booking? There's so many variables, right? But you know, there can be a lot of backlash in this industry for RTOs that are delivering first aid courses in let's say two hours, for example, focusing purely on practical. Um what what are your thoughts on that? Like, and I have no doubt in my mind that you get asked this question so many times, probably weekly. Like, what what is is there a right answer? Is there a correct duration? Are there RTOs that are doing short shortened courses? Are they bad? You know?

SPEAKER_00

And if I was at my desk, I could go copy, paste, and put this in an email and send it back to you with my response to to uh to everybody asked and saying that there's Same question. Yeah, that's exactly right. And it is a tricky one. And I suppose if I if I shorten my answer to say there is no definitive answer, other than I think we all know in in industry that there are providers that are doing courses at extremely short durations. I'm not going to comment much on it because I don't know, I don't know too much around their training assessment strategies, their assessment tools, or what people are doing pre-course. But I think that we've got to get we've got to be very careful. Like we've got to a stage now where there are some courses, and I'll give you an example, you know, things like advanced resuscitation, you know, which is teaching people, you know, how to deliver oxygen, why to deliver oxygen, how to use bag valve masks, put in airways, you know, all of that sort of stuff, and all of the bleeding stuff that's now in that unit as well, in in durations of an hour or an hour and a half. And you know, I it I just I look at it and go, I just don't know how. Like I really don't know how that's done because with the assessment requirements that were put into these units in regards to things like the scenarios that need to be done, I just don't know how they get through it all. But then I don't know what they're doing pre-course. Maybe literally all of the knowledge is being done pre-course. I don't know. Um I think that one of the key things that that I'm finding as an RTO owner is getting trainers that want to actually just come and assess people in a class. So let's just say they have, they've done all of their knowledge pre-course and they're coming in and do the practical. I'm finding less and less trainers actually want to be involved with that. They don't want to come to work and just be in a classroom for an hour or whatever that time duration might be, just to assess people do skills which they haven't actually been shown by them. They've been shown on pre-course learning or whatever, and then send them out the door again. So I I think I think that that is going to be a big challenge moving forwards is actually having trainers that are willing to engage in um RTOs for very short durations of time for basically assessing and not really teaching. Because a lot of people that get in the industry actually do it for a passion of standing in front of people, passing on their knowledge. Um, I I find that sometimes I'm more of a performer than I am a trainer when I come to training. Um because I've been to one of your courses, yes.

SPEAKER_04

Very first time in Australia, my very first course was you were the trainer.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my goodness. And was I right?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I remember it.

SPEAKER_00

Well, oh good.

SPEAKER_03

Can you remember?

SPEAKER_04

It was it was great, it was it was great. Oh gosh. Um yeah, I I remember it very much. How many years ago was that? Nearly 15?

SPEAKER_03

Nearly 15, something like that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it was it was a long time ago. So it was, yeah, I think there I needed to upskill from coming from the UK, obviously, from life-saving over there, training over there, and then coming and learning the ropes over here. So yeah, you're a good news story, Andy.

SPEAKER_00

Well, there you are. Um but I think you know, I did like I'll get into it because I I enjoy I enjoy talking to people. I enjoy um that interaction. I think that we are losing that a lot now. You know, we're losing it because we're becoming shorter and shorter, and and and it is becoming almost an assessment only when people get into the class, and it's and it's and it's a shame. So I think we're gonna have a problem, or we already have a problem with um uh you know employing trainers because it's short durations, it's assessment only. Um so I think that that is an issue that we are gonna face even more and more into the future, or whether AI is gonna take over and assess everything, who knows? But robots possibly. Um but I think what we need to really concentrate on, and if we concentrate on it properly, I think it will sort the timing stuff out, is that we are doing good quality training. So if we are actually looking at um, you know, good student outcomes, and I know we hear this term a lot, and I don't want to be someone that regurgitates this term good student outcomes, but what I mean by that is actually that people are walking away from courses knowing what to do.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, confident.

SPEAKER_00

They're confident, they they are happy that they actually want to, you know, will stop and help in a workplace or on the side of the road, whenever these things might happen. Um, and if we really aim for that, the timing thing should sort of sort itself out a little bit. So rather than saying, look, we need to do it in this amount of time, what we should be looking at is going, this is what the student should look like by the end. Um, and that then says, Well, it's gonna take about this long to do it. You know. Um, the issue that we have is that first aid is competitive in the market. And and I started, you know, I started training uh side of my uh RTO back in 2008, uh, and I've seen a lot of the changes, and it is more competitive now than it ever was before. So it ends up being a competitive price and time, and now we're starting to see the impacts, I think, a little bit of that more and more now. Um, but there are also providers that uh you know are focused on the student outcomes and and and focused on student uh you know actually remembering and being confident.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So in a long-winded way, um there is no definitive answer to time, but I think that we do need to be concentrating more on quality because it uh for sure, and and you mentioned um you know people are doing courses in eight hours. Uh, and and and I'll be up front and say we still do uh as a version, we still have that available. I actually don't think that's the best way of doing it. I don't think having people eight hours in a classroom is right. I think that adults do not focus, it is too much, it's a cognitive overload for somebody to actually come and do that much training and try and absorb that much information. So I don't think that's a great model. I really do like the blended model where people are doing, you know, a fair amount of the knowledge at home. They then come in and the trainer is able to focus on those uh situations or conditions or injuries that are life-changing or or or life-threatening. Yeah, you know, being able to really again engage people in that conversation around those, doing the practicals, doing the assessment, and then and then sending them on their way. Um, I think that that face-to-face stuff is still really important for the critical injuries and illnesses because it allows people to ask those questions, it allows sometimes for that understanding a bit more, which then leads to yeah, the process, it leads to better um confidence in applying those skills. Uh so you know, again, I'm happy to put it on the line. You know, our our our RTO and my RTO currently does a blended delivery uh for public courses specifically in around that sort of four hours plus some significant amount of e-learning uh that they do, which is all professionally done videos. Uh, and I find that sort of is a good balance. A good balance. It takes into account, and this is other things that need to be considered, you know, those students that are late, the break, the you know, the the paperwork that might have to be done, all these other things that does cut into that time still has to be.

SPEAKER_04

Where some people might need more time as well. We just don't know, right? Exactly right until they come in, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I think the the the four hours that you're talking about, like it might suit people that are time poor as well. Like they're trying to fit in work and children and school and and whatever else, and then fit in their training so that they like their first aid training as well. Like the eight hours to the four hours kind of like is a good balance.

SPEAKER_00

It is. It's uh you know, more is not better when it comes to actual face-to-face delivery, and and I'm gonna say that with a bit of a caveat, I suppose. What I what what I don't want people to think is well, the more time I spend with someone and the more information I give them, the better that course is gonna be, or the more they're going to remember, because that's definitely not the case. Um, and and there's some good information now through Ilcor, through the European Resource Council, where they've looked at the education side of this and gone, look, uh, less is actually better normally, as long as that less is quality. And that's what we're missing at the moment. So if you've got less time and poor quality, outcomes are horrendous, I think, personally. Again, this is just my opinion. Uh, shorter courses where content is uh and practicals are focused on things that are going to make a difference, and the information that is getting passed to students is accurate and correct by people that have done professional development and are engaged with industry, that is really good training. Yeah. All right. So more is not better. Um, really short poor quality is horrendous. We need to find where that that middle ground is. Middle ground, I think. And and again, going back to what I said before, we need to remember that we still need trainers and assessors. And if we start making their those types of positions obsolete or assessor-only type roles, we're going to be in a bit of trouble over the next few years because first aid is one of those things that we always want people to get some hands on. We want to see them on the mannequins, we want to see them using the skills and the and the bandages and the defibs and all that sort of stuff. Um, we still want it, it's important. So we want people in the industry that are prepared to do that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And Andy, I guess you mentioned it is it is a competitive industry. There are many RTOs that are obviously being pushed into a corner where, you know, uh, you know, organizations will go elsewhere because they're trying to save money, because the courses are shorter, therefore they're paying their staff for less period of time, for example, right? Like that seems that's one example of you know why we've sort of headed this way. Um what do we need to do? Is it is it a is it a matter of RT owners getting together and agreeing to setting a standard together? Um because like how else do we do it? How else do we actually salvage this, get in, get find that middle ground as a I guess as a nation, really, um, to actually deliver better training.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm gonna give you a really, you know, really enthusiastic answer and say that just won't work. Yeah. Um and I think you're expecting that answer. Uh-huh. Uh I would love to think that every RTO that delivers first aid would be quite as open-minded as as maybe some of us, but that just is not the case. So if we wanted you know a definitive, what would stop it would be some sort of regulation that was enforceable. Yep. Um, it that's never gonna happen because it's not gonna happen across the whole industry, uh across the whole VEC sector, which is what would need to happen. Um, you know, a lot of people come uh you know, come to me and have conversations around you know, first aid in particular being really short and cheap, but actually it's not just first aid. You know, it's the same with TAE, it's the same with childcare qualifications, it's the same if you want to go into a you know a blue card or uh you know, uh I recently did a uh responsible service of alcohol. It's the same thing, like it's every every industry is the same, cheap, quick, online, you know, no face-to-face, whatever it might be. And the only way that that can be regulated um is by the regulator. That's and they aren't, I think is the answer to that. So um, and there's lots of reasons why they're not, and we know because you know it's been it's been mentioned before, it was mentioned and it was submitted as part uh of the IRC with Skills IQ that we were concerned with the way that first aid training was going. Um and and the response was it's not a it's not a priority, you know, it's not a priority because there are so many other things that are in the same boat.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So and and you will know the the the stuff that happened with the childcare services, for example, and the big review that went into them. Um what people don't realise or don't you know are or are not prepared to sort of recognise is that first aid is actually the most trained unit of competency in the country. So we're talking about millions of people undertaking first aid courses. How can it not be a priority? Yeah, yeah. But um, you know, we all know that things like audits, things like um performance reviews are generally a desktop type exercise. It's about providing paperwork and evidence, it's not actually about looking at what's happening in the classroom. Yeah. So and I don't want to, you know, I I try not to be negative when it comes to this area. It is hard because I really feel that there does need to be some standards and some regulation. Um, and if I was providing advice to somebody now that was coming into the first aid industry and wanting to train, wanted to become a trainer, my my my main piece of advice would be do not target the public course market because that is where the problems really lie. It's around those individuals that want to do a course. There are just so many providers doing that, and that really is the competitive edge of our market. Focus on that on-site training where people are actually looking for customized or contextualized training, where they're looking to do it in a time frame that is uh suitable for them. And what I mean by that is it might be out of hours, it might be across two sessions, things where you know providers like yourselves and your training partners are able to actually work with those clients to build a training session that is suitable for them. I think that it would be near impossible now to get into that public training market unless you were absolutely established and willing to be cutthroat.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. And you have to be as willing as you say, but also okay with being part of that picture. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

You know, um, and again, happy to say, you know, we always look at our competitors, we always look at where we're going as an RTO. Uh, and I and I've said to my staff before, there will become a point, I think, where I will get to a stage where I just go, look, I I I'm not prepared to go any further in regards to um maybe shortening courses, bringing down prices, whatever it might be. Um, and that, you know, maybe our whole business model will change because uh I am someone that's passionate about what we actually do. Um, and and I think that, you know, being in the position that I have been over the last few years, I I think it's important that um we have those standards. So, you know, we might get to that point. I don't think we're there yet, but I think that we're and even the review we did recently, we we're still one of the providers that um, you know, we do have some decent face-to-face time and and we get good feedback for that. And that's the other thing that people don't realize is that yes, we can get people in the door quick and we can get them out and we get them cheap. And most of them won't complain because they got their certificate and they they're off. That's it. Um, but you look at the feedback that somebody's been in that's been involved in a really engaging, high-quality course, they rave about it. Oh, I learned so much more. I feel confident, I feel empowered, I feel like I was able to ask questions. And yeah, uh, you know, you don't tend to hear a lot about people that aren't too fussed, you know, but you hear a lot from people that are actually really impressed with training.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, they remember you. They remember you.

SPEAKER_00

And there's lots of providers that do that. You know, lots of providers do a really good job.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's um that's fantastic. And and those people stand out because we see them all engage with us normally, you know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's interesting. I was just about to ask you that. I said, Do you find that most of the trainers or organizations that are that like I guess present that way, they rock up, they attend NIFAT, they want to engage, they want to learn, they're interested in PD. Is that is that normally what you see?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. So, and it's you know, I spoke at um the Spark Alive conference last year or the year before, I can't remember now. Um, and those same same questions that you're asking me now were asking me at the conference. And and and I can answer them, that's fine, but they're never the audience that needs to hear it. The audience need to hear it, the people that generally aren't engaged with us, aren't doing things and and and really should be. Um, so it's uh, you know, it's a it's just a conversation. I might come back and do your podcast in two years' time, we'll have the same conversation. Um but I I think that generally people that want to do a good job are doing a good job, and um they should be they should be um you know credited for that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree. In relation to Naifa, let's let's talk about the conference. Uh we're excited, we're we're pumped, it's getting planned.

SPEAKER_00

It certainly is, and aren't the weeks flying past um towards that conference?

SPEAKER_04

You guys will be busy.

SPEAKER_00

We are busy, and we're busy, but we're excited. You know, we've got a lot happening um this year, it's gonna be a great event. We're in Adelaide for the first time. Um so yeah, we we are pumped. We are looking, we are looking forward to the next couple of months of planning. And uh, and of course, you guys are gonna be there in force as well.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. We're excited to sponsor, we're excited to see our partners, we're excited to meet other people. Um, again, there's nothing as rewarding as sitting in a room with like-minded people. Um, you know, the emotions are flowing. We're we're you talked earlier about validating what we may already know, learning some new things. Just it's just so inspiring. And there's there's key moments that you just never forget from the conference. Like we've been going for years now, so it's um it's incredible. Can you tell us anything about what what we what we can expect?

SPEAKER_00

I certainly can. And um, and and following following on from our previous conversation, do you feel that because uh this is something that always hits me about the conference as well, is that there's so many different people at the conference, some big organizations and and others that are sole traders, but I never ever come across a situation where I feel that people are worried about being around their competitors or or having conversations, even in the evening and the social function. It just seems like everybody is there to learn, to engage, to network, and there's no ego. Like it's just people that want to be there and actually want to generally care.

SPEAKER_02

Everyone has the same end result. We all want to prevent and save lives, right? And have a cocktail together, right?

SPEAKER_00

Exactly right, exactly right. Like I was always worried that it that we were gonna get a room full of people that were gonna be really concerned that they were sat with their competitors or potential competitors, but I've never felt that. And I think that that is such a great vibe that we have at NIFAT. It doesn't matter what organization you're from, it doesn't matter whether you're from the big ones, whether you're from the small ones, whether you're brand new to the industry, people are actually willing to engage, ask questions, um, and and and just have some really good conversations. So um that is a thing that I hope we continue to see at NIFAT. In regards to this year, um it's it's likely to be our biggest event yet. Uh, if we look at uh look at ticket sales, uh, which is great. It's amazing. Um it is, and it's the first year that we're bringing somebody in from overseas to to speak as well. So we're very lucky to have Andrew Lockheed uh from the UK, who's been heavily involved with the UK Resus Council, the European Resource Council and Il Corps. He has a lot of interest in the area of education for BLS and First Aid, and anybody that's been to Spark Alife before probably would have seen him present. So uh really interested to see some of his conversations. Uh, we've got Janet Bray, who's uh also part of uh the well, all of those organizations again, including the Australian Resus Council uh and Anne's Corps. Uh Finn McNeil, who was there two years ago, uh again, part of um uh the Australian Resource Council, Hugh Grantham, who everybody will remember. He's often uh a hit because he's uh and he's a very you know straight shooting uh person, which I think is great. Yeah you know, says it how it is.

SPEAKER_04

He does, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh Sarah Hunstead is coming back to do a session. Uh again, I always find her sessions very engaging the way that she trains.

SPEAKER_04

She's one of the top of the list for us. Yeah, she's amazing.

SPEAKER_00

This year we actually have some sessions running a bit like this podcast, where rather than it being a presentation, it's more of a discussion uh around areas where we can just freely talk about different topics, uh which I which are called on the couch, on the couch sessions. So I'm really looking forward to those because it's a different style of presenting information. Um, we have some, we I'm not gonna go through all of them because there are too many, but uh because we really do have a lot more sessions this year because we've shortened a lot of them as well. So um shorter sessions, looking about that cognitive overload, but also making sure that we use those presenters that are actually coming. And we I don't want to say use and abuse because that's not the right word, but we want to make the most of them being there. So providing a lot more shorter sessions on different topics has been a focus. Plus our pre-conference workshops. So anybody that's coming to the conference that's purchased the premium ticket. Um the only difference between the premium and the standard is you get these pre-conference workshops, and there's uh three of those running on, or three sessions running on the night before the main conference of the 26th, I think that is. Um Jess from uh Jess Williams from uh New South Wales Ambulance. So she's uh you would have remembered her probably. She was there a couple of years ago. She's gonna be doing a session on high quality CPR. So that's a practical session where um we're taking up to 20 people per session to just focus on that. So that's where she'll bring in you know the high high fidelity mannequins, she'll look at what what is high performance CPR, um, uh and lots of practical hands-on stuff. And we've also got Hugh Grantham doing a session or a workshop on uh teaching first aid. So looking again at those ways of what should we be teaching, why are we teaching, what information should we pass on. That uh I'd love to get to that session actually, but I might be doing some other stuff. Um and then we also have uh no, these ones aren't, these are you've got to be face to face with these ones, unfortunately. Right, right, right. Um the last one is CRISPR Tolo. So Chris um is doing a session on all of those things that are in NAND's core guidelines that you know you might read them right. It says if trained to do so. So, you know, give IM injection, if trained to give. So he's actually gonna look at a number of those things. So intramuscular glucagon, for example, um, going through, um I know we're very aware of this now, but you know, intranasal um administration of medications, how to take blood pressures, how to take blood glucose levels. So those little sort of extras, I suppose. So again, a hands-on workshop, but he's gonna be doing those. So if you purchase a premium ticket, you actually get a choice of two of those. So one in the afternoon and one in the evening. And uh they are almost booked up. So if you're watching this podcast and it's still available and you want to come, for goodness sake, book your tickets because they have limited spaces.

SPEAKER_03

Get in, get in.

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, get in. Um, they are very worthwhile. That's you know, an extra afternoon of some really, really focused PD.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Because we went last time, right? D and I, Jeremy's major bleed craft.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it was really good.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a great presenter. It was hands-on as well, I think. Um was really good, yeah. Yeah, to ease into the conference too.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. Yeah, exactly right. You know, arrive in the the the day before, do a bit of PD, um, practical stuff, not too, not too much, you know, for the brain. It's it's good hands-on stuff. Um, and then into the two days of the of the main conference, which is absolutely packed, you know. And then we also have a very big launch uh this year, uh, of a big campaign. This is very exciting this year, and that is all being worked on in the background now. And I can't talk about it anymore because I've been told off already that I've I've already given too many secrets away. Get your tickets because we've got a big launch of a campaign that we hope is really going to make a difference uh to uh to an area that I think is uh so important. So um we'll talk more about that at the conference and uh and who knows, maybe we can do a follow-up podcast over the after the conference and talk a little bit more about that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. All right, now we're intrigued. Yes, definitely, definitely. The countdown is on. What happened?

SPEAKER_00

The countdown is on. I mean, it is just flying. Yeah, so end of August. Um flying flying past. And uh, you know, for those that are you know on the on the fence on whether to come, and this is where you can tell, and I'm not a salesman, so I'm not very good at selling things, but it you know, come, it is good. Like it is good. Yeah, uh, even as the organizer, I can say it's it is probably the the the best conference or event for a first aid trainer that you can go to. Um, not trying to knock anything else. Uh and I think Spark of Life is a great conference as well. Um, but our conference is focused on or is targeted to frontline first aid educators. So we're not trying to teach you high high-level stuff. We're we're looking at that those things that that you guys are doing day in, day out. Keeping it simple, keeping it simple, keeping it straight, providing that extra information, which is so important for all trainers to have. Yeah, um, but we're not looking at advanced life support. We're not looking at you know neonatal resuscitation. We are looking at the absolute crux of what these guys are doing. Yeah. So um be there or be square.

SPEAKER_04

I totally agree. We highly recommend it. We love it. Um, yeah, every year it gets better, I have to say, bigger and better. Um, and massive credit to you and your team for pulling that off. Like when we attend, it's just everything's perfect. I'm sure you guys are exhausted at the time, you've done so much, but um you you definitely don't um show that. I think you rock up and um yeah, it's very professional, so we can't wait to be part of it for sure. So, Andy, if you had one uh final piece of knowledge or information that you wanted to share with our listeners, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I think that it's important to understand why we're in this industry, what we're doing, what what the outcome is that we're actually trying to achieve with our students. And um, you know, going back to when I was eight um and I'm now 40 something, uh, first aid generally actually hasn't changed an awful lot. You know, we might do some things slightly differently. We might do 30 compressions instead of 15 or 5 because we've got better evidence that that's you know the the right thing to do. But ultimately, it still hasn't changed what we're trying to achieve, you know. So um it's about people being able to make a difference when somebody is injured or hurt or you know, having a severe illness, whatever it might be, and and either preventing them from getting worse or or you know, in in in some situations, at least just being there and uh until somebody else can take over. So I think we need to, you know, not get tied down with the compliance, try not to be worried too much around uh the competitive, the the short courses, and and just focus on, you know, just giving people the skills and knowledge that are actually going to make a difference.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

And um, and Dee, you you're still a trainer, you're still in the classroom all the time teaching people. Um, you know, for us, we need to, as trainers, be able to recognize sometimes that that less is more, but that that less that we're providing is less and so much as that it's actually giving them more confidence, more ability to know what to do. It's about understanding those conditions and illnesses that we want to spend some time on, uh, you know, and and and recognizing that sometimes there's actually not a lot you can do for the patient.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

And and and in it, you know, when I do get into the classroom, which is not um as often maybe as it was 15 years ago when you came to one of my courses, but um, you know, I actually have this 10 minutes where I talk about uh general first aid principles or general care principles. And that's uh and I still use a slide for that, and it's just some bullet points about things that we do for every single patient that we ever deal with. So it doesn't matter whether you know it's a a bleed, a stroke, a heart attack, uh, anaphylaxis. There are some key things that we do for everyone. We call for help, we wear PPE, we we deal with major bleeding if that that's occurring because that's so important. We provide reassurance, we you know, keep them nil by mouth unless the condition requires them to have something, we maintain their body temperature. So we do all of those things for every patient that we deal with. Then all I need to do as a trainer when it comes to those specific conditions is go, okay, well, we do all of that stuff that I already talked about earlier, and throughout the day, I talk about that, you know, give me one of the general care principles that we're gonna do. But then all I need to enforce when it comes to talking about um, you know, we'll we'll say anaphylaxis as an example, is um, you know, lay the person down on the floor um or sit them up if they're having breathing difficulties, administer, I'll be careful, careful what I say, you know, administer their medication, of which there are multiple, yeah. Um yeah, administer their device or a system to, whatever is required, uh and and give them another one in five minutes if there's no improvement. What I don't need to cover is um provide reassurance, call for help, um, you know, maintain them all because I've already covered that. And if we say that too many times during the course, saying it more doesn't mean they're gonna remember it better. In fact, what it can do is confuse people.

SPEAKER_04

So because I think which order was uh that was different than what you said at the start.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's right. Um so when I say somebody, you know, when I say to give someone a question like, what are you gonna do for someone with anaphylaxis? All I want them to say is the key things. Give them their device, lie them down, you know, give them some more if they need it. And then you can go, okay, cool. And what are those other things that we might want to do for that patient? Oh, we've got them, you know, we're gonna provide reassurance, we're gonna do all those general care principles that I've mentioned before. So this comes back to what I said, you know, previously. Um less, you know. We we we we can we can make sure that they have all the information, but we can not have to say it all the time. And I struggled as a trainer when we went to blended learning where you know I felt that because I hadn't said it, they don't know it. And that's not the case. We've got to as trainers remember that if they've done it and they've done a question about it, they are competent as far as we're concerned. Um, you don't have to then say it again. Yeah, and saying it more doesn't mean they're gonna remember it.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, hopefully I've uh provided some insights and some knowledge. And uh and and uh you know, it's great that you invited on me, and and it's great that uh that people oops uh continue to uh invite me on podcasts and and to talk, but I don't feel that I'm an expert, I'm just somebody that's actually willing to talk about um the industry, and and that's what I I feel is important. You know, I'm I'm happy to be wrong, you know. If this goes out and someone says, Well no, we mentioned something that's wrong in there, I'll take it, that's fine. But what I'm uh very proud to say is that I am always happy to talk about it, whether it's right or wrong.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, look, thank you, Andy. We always um enjoy our time with you and talking through these um these things. Um appreciate your time today. Can't wait to see you soon again at the conference. And yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you very much, and we'll see you in August.

SPEAKER_04

See you then. Thank you for joining us in today's episode of Beyond the Bandage. We really hope you enjoyed the session. Please like, share, and subscribe so you can be part of future episodes and get notifications whenever they are aired. We really would appreciate your support. Thank you so much.