The Picture Isn’t Complete: One Battle After Another and the Question of Representation

In this episode, we take on best picture winner One Battle After Another and the conversation around its portrayal of Black women. Where does representation land, and why does it still spark debate? 

We also look at what a changing audience means for Hollywood, from shifting expectations to the question everyone’s asking: can Gen Z actually save the industry?  Plus, what we watched this week and the films we’re excited about.

The Screening List is hosted by Maritza Cayo and Chiara Miniconi.

Produced by VoxFilms and NouLa Productions.

Edited by Chloe O'Donnell.

Artwork by Griffin Reynolds.
Music by Evan B.

Follow us on Instagram @thescreeninglist.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

I'm Ritz K.O. I'm Kiara Miko. And this is The Screening List, a podcast where we talk about all things movies, especially the ones you need to be seeing. Today we are discussing Hollywood's Hail Mary, Gen Z, and this year's best picture winner, One Battle After Another, which has been the topic of much debate, especially after PTA's post-win comments.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

I know a little bit about that critique. I know that uh Tiana has has talked about it a lot. I know that we have the portrayal of many different characters, in particular her character, who is so flawed and unfortunately makes decisions that are detrimental to the revolution that she's trying to fight. It's complicated. We always knew that we were trying to make something complicated. We knew that we weren't making something that was heroic, and we needed to lean into that.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Let's talk about it. At the beginning of this whole one battle after another debate, like I was just fine not liking this movie and being okay that this movie wasn't for me. But I think after that comment, I got really frustrated. When PTA said those comments, it was like he was kind of like breaking down, being like, Well, this is a villain. This is what a villa a villain's not supposed to be likable. And for me, as a black woman, as an actor, I'm like, I don't care that she's not a likable character, actually. I'm a big fan of making more black women not likable characters, actually. But my issue is that she's not a likable character that is like a fully fledged, nuanced character to me. I think she is used as a plot device in this film. We're really just jumping in here. Um much to discuss, girl. Much to discuss. Much to discuss, but let's start. Yeah, like my biggest gripe with this film is that the black women feel like devices and not like real people. Especially Perfidia's character, Tiana Taylor's character, if you haven't seen this film, which I find crazy at this point. Um, but if you haven't, also respect to you, I guess. Oh come on, no. And no, I'll let you talk, but no, no, no, Caribbean Curry does not agree with them. As somebody who doesn't love this film, that's fine with me. Um but yeah, perfidia Beverly Hill's character, and I would say all of kind of like the black femme characters in the film to me lack a lot of agency, which I feel like a lot of people might not agree with me with, but I just feel like everything is kind of happening to them, and they don't actually, I don't actually know why perfidia is acting in the ways in which she's acting. I don't feel like I have any insight into her internal life, into her internal dialogue, into her reasons why, into her ideologies, her morality. Like, I'm actually like so fine. Again, I'm gonna reiterate this. I'm so fine with black women being villains, essentially. Like, I have no issue with that. Or being characters, or being characters like yeah, being characters. Like, I act as an actor, I prefer to play a villain because it's so much more fun. Like fun, but there are villains that exist in media that are black women and that are terrible and are fully fledged people. For instance, Hedda, if you didn't see Nia DeCosta's Hedda, Tessa Thompson's main character in there, is a self-serving, just manipulating lover, right? She's terrible, but I enjoyed her in that role so much. And I was so happy she got the opportunity to play a villain. I haven't seen it, but I'll just ask. She's the protagonist in that? She's the protagonist in that. She's an unreliable, manipulative, selfish, toxic lover. Sounds like me. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. But like there's there's Heda, there's fucking Sula, Tony Morrison. That's a f it's a book, it's not a film, but like she's, and that's especially in relation to Perfidia, a main character who's a protagonist that uses her sex as something powerful, that you know, sleeps with other people's husbands and doesn't care what people think about her. Like, so also it's just like if we're gonna frame, you know, especially which I think is happening in this film, like sex being power and black women recrink reclaiming their power around sex, there's characters who are bad that have been created that are fully fledged human-being people that I feel like this film is not.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Okay, the list goes.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Let's unpack, let's unpack.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

I think there's a lot to unpack here, whether it's in terms of like the character being fully fledged or you know, like sexuality, or so let's yeah, let's maybe set up what one battle after another is for those of you who might not see it.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

It is an adaptation from a book.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

I will just say one thing. I think you know, like discourse around movies not only is okay, but it's like really important, you know. For me, that's what art is for, right? It's to like bring up conversations that can make us like uncomfortable or that are harder to like bring up on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, however, as I stand, I am not okay with people having judgments over like art pieces without seeing them or reading them. Yes, that is something that like bothers me. What I'm saying is if you rely on other people's opinion that you read, you just it's like you, you, it's like watering down the argument. Like, I want to hear what you didn't like. You see what I'm saying? I don't want to hear what you read that the other person liked. I can read I can read the thing myself.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah, I think I I agree with you. Like, I feel like people should watch and form their own opinions. I do feel like though, like there is a hesitation that I think I'm not gonna speak for all black women because that's not my job, but I understand why a lot of the black women in my life who have seen the film are very put off by it. And in them talking about it, it's just like, oh, to warn another black woman who might not want to sit through uh what is that movie, like three hours and go through that experience. Like different. I also understand that.

SPEAKER_04 6:10

It's that but that's what I'm saying, like you know because that's someone who watched it and who said, Hey, by the way, like I don't think you should, like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Different, but for example, Surat, watch it. Like, yeah, someone was not having a great day, was going to go watch it in theaters, and I was like, you know what, I think you should cancel it from having seen it. I don't think you should do that.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

So, yeah, of course, but you know, yeah, and I I think also maybe setting a standard for this podcast. I'm never gonna say that a movie is bad because I feel like it's irrelevant and not helpful to any conversation. Granted, I don't Paul Thomas Anderson is definitely not listening to this podcast and doesn't really care if I think his film is bad. But you don't know that. My PTA, I love you. I don't know that. But but you know, I don't think that it's helpful for a filmmaker to be here like, yeah, this film was bad. Well, why do you think it's bad? Like, to me, I'm saying my critique of this film is that I don't think it does justice in illustrating black women as fully fledged people with agency, and that's an issue to me. And I think PTA made a modern day stereotype that our has been just like pushed throughout the history of film and TV in America, and so that is my critique of it, that is my issue with it, and I think a lot of black women are having that critique and have been met with such what I also have been hating about the conversation around this film is when black women are voicing, like, yo, I don't like this because I feel like this movie doesn't like me. And you have film bros in the comments being like, Oh, you just don't understand. Pete doesn't even have to explain himself. Oh, you're just so dumb, like, not everybody's supposed to be likable, not da-da-da-da-da. Like, black women are the most educated demographic in America. We get a master's degree, like, it's a taco on a Tuesday. We don't need you to explain to us what an anti-villain is, how a plot works. We're saying that we don't like this representation of us based off of these historical tropes that have been damaging to the image of black women in America for centuries.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Yeah, is that true? Black women are the most educated demographics in America. I have no idea. Yes, we are.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Wait, we love to go get a degree. I love that about us. But the debt.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

Like, I don't like the debt. I hear degree, it gives me anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Like, like it gives me pity and but I feel like and it also comes from a culture of having to come into a room and having to prove yourself and having to have the degrees or the credentials behind you, so people when we speak that we're listened to. So even us as credentialed individuals, I feel like we're still not listened to. For Paul Thomas Anderson to get on stage and be like, I've heard this critique. Tiana Taylor has spoken about this critique, and I'm I'm not making I'm making a complicated character. I'm making a care a character who's not the hero of the story. Again, like I'm saying, black women are not asking you to make a character that is likable. We're asking you to make a person who is real.

SPEAKER_04 9:17

Okay, so let's let's, if you don't mind, let's take a second on that one before we keep unpacking on the one battle after another.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Obviously, uh, in case you didn't know, I am not a black woman. Uh but I I would like for us to discuss this a little more because I don't really see what you mean by um that doesn't feel real, just because my experience watching it, you know, like she did feel very real. As a offense, the character as a woman, I did feel a lot of things that she was feeling. And I did understand from my experience as a viewer, like the complexity of the different feelings that she was going through and with her identity, you know. And she's not the protagonist, yeah, but like the whole movie, like I don't know exactly how long Tiana Taylor is in the movie.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

I think it's like 33 or 35 minutes. Yeah, like that's the prologue section of the film.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

The entire movie for for me is about she is this way, this way to the other characters. I don't think she's a plot device, I think she's an object to the protagonist of the movie. Does that make sense? Like, for example, like Sean Penne's character. A lot of the ways we see perfidia is throughout the eyes of like other men. Yes. Like when we sh see like Sean Penne with the binocular like looking at her, and the way I saw it and I experienced it is like it wasn't about her because I saw her complexity, I saw her pain, and I as a woman I saw all of that, but to me it was more about them and them fetishizing like her. And at the end of the day, you know, like even there's this comment about perfidious mother that tells Leonardo DiCaprio that he's like I don't know what she said, like a wash card, or she calls him something that I thought was very funny. Yeah, and guess what? She's right. The rest of the movie, the guy keeps fumbling, like you know, like um I'm a little bit of a spoiler, like in the end, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio manages to like get his daughter back, but she'd be dead if it wasn't for her. She saved herself, yes, you know, which is something else, like like they're all they're all useless, huh? The the white men in this movie, if you know, if we're gonna like speak this way, they're fucking useless. Like Leonardo DiCaprio falls off a roof, yes, you know what I mean? Which is and Sean Penn, we're not even gonna talk about it. It's not a big because it's like I'm I'm gagging, you know. But that's I guess that's why I see what you're saying, and obviously I am never gonna experience this movie the same way as you are and you as me. But uh I felt her complexity, I I I felt her absence, you know, in a lot of ways, but I do, you know, like the this movie is based on a book from the 90s. In the book, so the the structure is a little different because not to make it confusing, but the movie starts, you see quote unquote the past, and then it's pretty like straightforward, linear, like you follow like you know, one action after another, right? Yeah, uh, whereas the book, there's a lot of flashbacks, you know, the mention of like when they talk about the fact that perfidia comes from a line of revolutionary women that is like more explored. It's different, you know, it was treated differently. But so I I just think it's interesting because even that author that wrote the book, like his characters are like how do I say they're like on steroids, like larger than life. Yes, yes, yes. So, you know, I guess my point is just like I'm interested in going a little bit into more detail as to why it doesn't feel to you or to other people like a fully fleshed character because I think I miss that.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

And I think let's talk about even the adaptation of the book. The book is called Vineland, it's by Thomas Pynchon. It's the second time that PTA adapts one of his movies. Yes, I think Inherent Vice was the first one, and it took PTA 20 years to adapt this book. It's a and a lot of people say that it's a very hard read. I've never taken a stab at it myself. Um it's hard to adapt. That's for sure. It's a it's a book that's hard to adapt. And Perfidia's character is based off of Fairnessy Gates in the book. They have the a very similar origin story. It's like Fairnessie was a part of a revolution. She like rats out the revolution and goes to this opposing force by choice. I feel like in the movie it's like Tiana Taylor didn't really choose that, it was forced upon her on Perfidio's character. I think she shuffled that. We can talk, we can talk about that. Yeah, yeah. Um, so she's a white woman in this book, and then for me to cast a black woman in this role, I think makes it worse because I feel like you can just pull Tiana Taylor, which some people might not agree for me, but you can pull Tiana Taylor out of this role and cast a white woman. You'll get a different movie, yeah. But I think that it that solves a lot of problems for me about this film. I think my issue with it, I don't think that the circumstances around White Revolution and Black Revolution were really thought about as far as putting a black woman in this role, and the type of feticization and sexualization of like what that means for a black woman in media was really thought about with like intention and care in the creation of this character. I don't even blame this on Tiana Taylor, it's really an issue with me with the writing.

SPEAKER_04 14:54

I I hear what you're saying, I do. I think for me, my experience, you know, as like uh European, uh American, I have a passport, but not by not that, yeah, but uh not culturally. From my understanding that I've made of the US, right? In the past 10 years I've lived here, I thought exactly what you were saying, you know, like the how black women have been represented in the media and the fet fetish fetishization. Fetish I can't say that, girl. Right, say that trespass. And uh the fetish. Oh okay, we're gonna go like that. I that's what I got from the movie. Does that make sense? That's that to me, like that's how I received it. I don't know if what I'm saying makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

No, no, it does make sense, and I think that that was his goal, and that to me, I think, in lies the problem that I feel like I have and a lot of other black women have about the film because to me it's kind of just like did I understand that Lockjaw fetish fetish fetishized her? It's hard. Oh my god, it's so hard. Did I know that Lockjaw had a fetish for her? Yes, but did I need PTA to then get the camera and linger on Tiana Taylor's body and linger on her ass and linger on her the curvature? Like I get it, we're seeing this through the male Lockjaw's gaze, but I don't necessarily think that I needed that. I don't think that the f needed that.

SPEAKER_04 16:22

And that's my issue with what like what people are talking about because like I have said exactly what you've said about other characters and like other movies, and I think that's hella valid. Okay, I think me, it like pisses me off, I don't like it, blah blah blah. But it's the character, right? It's the characters, it's the critiques that are being made, isn't it? Isn't it a form of representation? Do we like seeing it? Is it overrepresented?

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah, but but that's and I think that's my and that's the feeling of her feeling more like a plot device and not like a person. Like, why don't I feel like we don't really get to see anything through her eyes? As the person who sets up this whole film, this film cannot exist without perfidia. Whoa, and I it's not granted, yes, it's not about her, but she gets 35 minutes in this movie, and I have to see her through white men the first 30 minutes of this movie, and then on top of that, she disappears from the rest of the film, and then I don't understand anything about her for real. Everything is just happening to her. I don't think she has actual agency, and we can even talk about Lockjaw and her relationship and how that doesn't feel consensual at all. Like that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

So that that that I I I was gonna come up to that just we're we're talking about like sexual violence here, you know. So just like let's let's lay the land of that. It's spoilers too, but yes, um see that's okay, that's my thing. That's why it's tough. The way I experienced it when I watched it, some people debate it, right? To me, what the sexual encounter between her and Logjaw, you know, which led to Willa Willa. Yeah, yeah, that is that is sexual assault. Okay, but that's the thing for me as a woman when I saw this, I saw a character that is fierce and tries to hold on to that rage and that power, but at the same time, the way this scene is portrayed, you can see it in a way because it is as like the as like a fantasy that a lot of men have with women, yeah, but at the same time, I saw it as like a woman who's about to go through something extremely traumatic and is trying to keep as much of her power as she can and to humiliate that person as much as she is. Is it flawed? Is it true? Is it whatever? I'm I don't fucking know. I'm just saying when I watch the movie, that's the way I felt about it. Because I just thought, I don't know how to say, Porfidia has more balls than than the men that are obsessed with her at any point. To me, that's the way I saw it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

That even to me, she's stronger. That but that's dangerous to me. Like, to me, Perfidia is like about three different racial stereotypes for black women in media wrapped up into one. She's a Jezebel. If you don't know what a Jezebel is, I don't know what she is. A Jezebel was a caricature that was created for black women in media to be exoticized, hypersexual, and somebody who manipulates men into devious sexual behaviors. Okay? It's exactly what she meant. And in a sa uh Jezebel, the history of that came from slavery. It was created so that women who were, black women who were raped for in order to create more slaves, wouldn't be victimized because they're in the words of Sean Penn in this film, a semen demon. This is my issue with this film. That stuff from yeah, I'm no longer like to you, but uh a semen demon, okay? And then she's also a sapphire, which is also um can is uh goes by another name of the angry black woman because you know she's powerful, she has balls, right? So the angry black woman trope portrays black women as domineering, self-serving, and emasculating. The purpose of the sapphire caricature was created to illustrate black women as responsible for destroying the black family social order and therefore responsible for hardships in black communities. Which you can see in this movie, she rats out the French 75, she abandons her husband and her baby, she essentially destroys her family. This film is based on a book from the 60s that takes place in the 60s and 80s, but it's set in modern day America, this film, and nobody is wearing masks, showing their faces. They're all just popping around these immigration centers, maskless, showing their faces, calling people, going to banks without anything to rob them. No, but the original the original is set in the 60s and 80s, but Paul Thomas Anderson, it feels like it's present day, right? The beginning of the movie, right? There's like 16 years in between. So already to follow 1990s, so yeah, maybe 1990s, early 2000s, but like they're not wearing masks, they're not covering their faces, they're just going to banks faceless, and then Porvidia lives at home with her parents and her baby. Like, you just don't think that the the government is gonna find you and capture you. Like, it just shows Porfidia as this such this chaotic, self serving, selfish is not thinking about this is the supposed to be the leader of a revolution, and she's putting herself because of her selfish, domineering and demasculating ways, putting her family and her revolution at stake and ends up destroying them both. So she's hypersexualized and gets raped for it. Then she destroys her family. And then after that, she's also to me like this superhero woman caricature as well. Because she's supposed to be, you know, powerful. She has the ball, she has this, but I feel like people are not even having the conversation around that con uh around her Lock Jaws relationship because she is this powerful force.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

What you're saying, I see it, I agree. I think it's true also with just gender dynamics, right? Like the way I saw it, like when I saw this movie, you know, in terms of characters, for me, which I understand it's a personal thing, right? The way I saw the dynamics were more about gender than it was about race, just because I don't fucking know. That's me, right? Yeah, I feel like that's how men are with women, to be honest. Yeah, and like when you're a little strong or anything, it's like you're right on the brick of being this like sexy, mysterious thing, or you're like the fucking devil or manipulator, and it's like I don't know that that's the way I saw it, and what I meant by she's fierce is like one battle after another, for me, it's more like like her life. You're right, things happen to her, and yet she's trying to like keep control in one way or another, you know, and that's like the way that like she gets like fucked, and you're right, like everyone, she's the big excuse, you know, or at the end of the day, like Leonardo DiCaprio's character is a bitch. Like, I'm sorry, but he's a bitch, like so, and and and you know, I had a lot of fun with that character, yeah. But I just think that in a way she reacts the way she does because she has no choice, and there's a lot of loneliness in that character.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

And that's my issue with it. If we're we're talking about black revolutionaries, especially women in black revolution in America, perfidia is antithesis to what a black revolutionary, a black revolutionary woman actually was during those times. And that's also, I feel like, a lot of people's issue with this. This movie came out around the same time that Asada Shakur died, who was one of the biggest black revolutionaries in America, who was wrongfully convicted for killing a cop. She was pregnant in jail. They were trying to make her miscarry in jail, and she had the notion of she's like, no, I'm gonna, this is my baby, I'm gonna protect my baby, myself. The Black Panthers ended up escaping, getting her out of jail. She escaped from jail and then lived as a fugitive in Cuba. And she recently passed away um earlier last year, around this time in April, whenever this movie came down, I think it was like April. And so a lot of people were upset because you're invoking such a very close representation of Asada's story and this perfidia character, but they're completely different, they're completely opposite. Like it's directly based on her? It's not based by on her, it's inspired by her. Like Tiana Taylor took a lot of inspiration from Asada's story, and also when she was in a director's call, she saw Asada Shakur has a biography, a very famous biography, and she saw the biography on like the desk. So she also was like, Oh, I should go to this text for inspiration for this character. So I think it's very, it's very inspired by her. The stories are very similar, it's very easy to make that connection. Two issues here. One with Film Bros being like, Oh, this doesn't mean anything. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. What does it what doesn't mean? Like, um, oh, when people, when black women are critiquing this perfidia character, they're just like, no, again, like this this conversation of PTA doesn't have to explain himself. Oh, you guys don't understand what an anti-hero is. Da da da. I've been seeing so many comments like that, and it's so frustrating because it's just like you don't know your history to know enough, my history enough, American history, in fact, enough to understand why this is pissing people off. And then the second thing about that is that black women, revolutionaries specifically in this country, have been treated with such violence and such a lack of respect and care that when they are represented in media, I think black communities have such a protection over them and the way in which that they are shown to the world. And so inevitably, people got upset about that. And I think, again, creative liberties, PTA can create whatever character he wants, but then you need to take responsibility for the impact that it has. And you getting on stage after you win your Oscar and being like, we have to understand she's a complex character. No, I'm demanding complexity from you, and I'm asking you why did you create this character in this way? Because again, I have no issue that Perfidia is selfish. I have no issue that she's trying to make sense of her life. I need to know why she's even in this revolution. What is the thing that she's running away from so bad? I feel like for in that scene with the bomb planting in the bathroom where Lockjaw corners her and was like, you need to come and have sex with me, or I'm gonna capture all of your people and I'm gonna, you know, capture you and you know, arrest you for a long list of things that you've been doing that have been illegal. At that moment, why not rely on your community? Go back to the French 70. There's just so many questions, like, yeah, then we won't have a movie. Correct. But I'm just like, what is her choice in that?

SPEAKER_04 27:18

I think everything you just said is very interesting, and at least for me, it's giving me uh a perspective. I'm not gonna say I didn't have, but like a deeper understanding. So I want to address that. The one thing I will say about that, that's complicated. Sexual assault, it's insane. I cannot say for a fact, no matter the character, just as a woman, you know, yeah, like if that were to happen to me in that sense, I mean, she's planting a bomb at that moment, yeah, you know, and she I I yeah, I don't want to do that. It's just you know, it's tricky about what could someone do and and even the dignity aspect of it, and what but I don't wanna, I don't wanna, and I'm not judging her character.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

No, no, I know, I know. But I wanna and I wanna state that too. Like, I'm I never want to judge a character or any person that's pushed against a wall being forced to do something they don't want to do. But to me, it just like it just doesn't make any sense in the plot of like her being put into even that position. I think it's also this conversation that I think a lot of scholars in have been having, black women scholars have been having of like, like, you will never be able to free yourself from using the oppressor's tools, like the master's tools. And I feel like that's also a lot of what she's doing, and that doesn't make sense with perfidia being in this long lineage of revolutionaries. Like, there's so many inconsistencies with her character that I simply just don't understand, and I'm just begging for more of her so that I can understand her. I think that's what the critique is, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 28:52

Yeah, no, that they that does make sense. You want more context and justify the actions so that the actions don't seem just like tropes.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Yes, and it's just like I have to spend the rest of this two-hour journey with this white, these white men fighting over these this black baby, and I don't understand why we even got here in the first place. That first 35 minutes of that movie made me extremely uncomfortable, and that's also okay, but if used properly, again, I think the black community and black women were so protective over our image because we we are fighting in every room we go into to be seen as a full-fledged person. And then for this film to be nominated for all the Oscars, for Tiana Taylor to be nominated for this specific performance, for this film to win best picture. I don't know, it's just like this is how I mean and it's true.

SPEAKER_04 29:43

It's like would you have been as mad vo if Sinners hadn't been there this year? What I'm trying to say by that is that you have so it what I mean is that there could have been another representation that would have been picked for best picture, and I'm just saying, is that like heightening a little bit the whole thing?

SPEAKER_01 30:01

I think it's I think it's I think if Sinners would have been there, or if it would have not been there, it would still have been a heightened conversation. I think Sinners being there makes it um a little better because at least we have this com this conversation, this foil in Woonmi's character and um Annie and Sinners, which is this like fully fledged character who has wisdom, who is guiding these people through something that she understands and that they don't, and that they rely on her, they trust her, they respect her. Right? This is not the same woman that is leading one battle after another, which is fine.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Yeah, I I think just I want to go back to some of some things you said that I thought were like very interesting and for me kind of like the most interesting part of that debate. But just before that, I will say there is one character I can't remember her name. Um Regina Hall's character.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Yes, yes. I think it's like uh DeAndra, maybe. Do you think the same way about her character? No, but my issue also with DeAndra is that we don't she doesn't say much. I feel like there is one scene that I was begging for in this movie, and it's that scene between her and Chase at the nun location in the hills, and uh Willis' character is like, you know, was my mom a bad person? And then, you know, DeAndre's going to answer that question, and like I finally we're finally about to have a real conversation about perfidia, and Sean Penn shows up, and we don't get that conversation, and it's just like I feel like constantly I'm I'm not getting the characterization for perfidia, even for DeAndre's character. I feel like she gets like 10 lines in that film, and she's also, I do think she is a foil to perfidia as far as like she is a revolutionary that is more in lockstep with the history of revolutionaries in this country, but also, you know, in this film, she's punished for being in lockstep with the revolutionaries of this country, which is accurate because they were punished for that. I think what a waste of Regina Hall. Like, what a waste of in a movie. Oh, for the movie, right? I think she was. No, and she was she was amazing in that film, and she's an amazing actor. If you haven't seen Honk for Jesus, Save Your Soul, it's with her and Sterling Kate Brown. It just, I think it just got onto Netflix. Watch that film. Regina Hall gives an incredible performance in that film. She is fucking amazing. She is an amazing actor, and I think it's just what a ways to have such a talent and to not give her any sustenance in that role.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

I don't know. I thought just that character was like the one with possibly the strongest spine of the entire movie. Absolutely. And I I see the the pain and the debate and the resolution at the same time because there's no way out for that character. Compare all the other characters have a way out but her. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

And she knows that. She knows that whichever like choice she makes, she's fucked, right? But she might make it a little easier for herself. It's just, I don't know. Anyways, I don't know why I'm saying that. But to go back to, I was just curious, but to go back to what you were saying, I think that the issue with this debate is the noise that is around it.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

I mean, I feel like people are not engaging in the conversation actually. But that they're not having a conversation, they're fighting. Yeah, but and also like I implore people to do their historical research as to why like black women are not just mad, like because we're just angry about this. Like, no, we're mad because of the representations in media about this.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

Like, I yeah, this is getting lost. I feel like this is getting lost because of a bigger debate that has happened in the past few years, you know, which is complicated and not addressing the fact that it's a complicated debate, I think, is what is blocking us, like, here a little bit. But there's been this debate about representation, yeah, right? A lot about what what is the what is the right middle ground between like no representation and like well, yeah, I'm just saying that's what the debate is, right? And well, you can't you can decide model the character and how the fuck you want it. It is gonna be what it's gonna be, it's a character, right? And in the same way that like, you know, if you're gonna take a white character, you have them in like it's weird to say, but in all shapes and sizes, you know what I mean? Why is that not true here? And why I guess part of the debate is no shit, people feel more hesitant, like writing those characters. Look how they're received, and then it becomes a fight between two camps, it's just dumb. Like, for example, I've been reading a lot about about that, about what we talked about. Yeah, and I read a lot of the outraged, I you know, some of what we talked about, I read too, but part of what you just said, I didn't know. I didn't know, and I think that's that's the interesting point. It's like I I would love to know what what would you have changed?

SPEAKER_01 34:50

I would have changed, like, why did she have to kill that cop? Like, why, you know, like give me 30 more minutes with perfidio so that I can really understand who the hell she is, what is she about outside of just sex?

SPEAKER_04 35:04

But see, that that's the thing, that that's what I that's what I mean. It's like I think the context you gave me is really interesting because when you say, for example, there is a reason why we're particularly protective of those characters, and you just told me what you said. Oh, I get that. I get that, and I think that's an important part of the debate. However, me as an audience member watching the movie, because I think those are different conversations as a filmmaker versus as an audience member. As an audience member, when I watched it, when she snapped, to me, it was that it was a character that was under a lot of pressure that that that is going through postpartum depression. Okay, but even you know, so to me, it was not necessarily a character floor, it's just she she snapped, she shouldn't even have got there. She was clearly not well and and and not being supported. I'm just saying, to me, yeah, that's how I sensed that character, and but it felt to me also.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

I think like I hate how easy it feels for perfidious characterization, like, oh, she was going through postpartum depression. It's more than that. I feel like she deserves more than that. Like to me, it was just easy for Paul Thomas Amerson to throw, oh, she's going through postpartum depression. Well, she's going to book. Yes, yes, yes. Well, she's going through postpartum depression because she's having a baby that was made in a non-consensual relationship, and also the pressures of still trying to run a revolution, and also I think like the critiques of critic literal critics in the industry being like, This is a revolutionary film. There is nothing revolutionary about this film. This film is a family drama, and you know, you're putting something on it that I don't even think PTA asked for. Again, I think that's why a lot of people are so upset by it. And I think, you know, you have a parent, a mother, who again is just like, I don't understand your your morals, your values, the why of your revolution, especially, you know, and how does that, how does that come into conflict with being a mother? What does that mean? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_04 37:12

Yeah, I yeah, okay, fair enough. I I feel like it's funny what you say because to me, like uh the way I watch this movie is not there is like okay, be careful to what I'm about to say, right? Um the what is it, the Christmas Adventures Club or whatever, like obviously like they suck, but for me, the point of like the movie or the book or the message that maybe not what it's saying, but the message I got was one battle after another. The cycles repeat themselves again and again, and no one wins. Yeah, and there's violence. And to me, to me, if the quote is like this for the future, this is for children, to me, it's to be wary about violence and extremism on either side. Extremism, period. I'm just talking to me. I'm not saying that it's true. That's not saying I'm fucking French, okay? We get mad all the fucking time. I'm just saying, like, that's it's tricky. I don't like speaking in absolutes in terms of art for a lot of reasons because I'm like, I think it kind of defies the purpose of what art is in the first place. I don't think PTA necessarily has to explain shit. And what I mean by that is the following I believe once a movie is made, it's no longer your movie. I mean it doesn't fucking matter what you try to say, right? Because at the end of the day, in a hundred years, you're not gonna be there to like justify it. Yes, it's about how people take it, and that's right, and representation and all of it. So my point is however you feel about it, I feel about it, it's valid. PTA, whatever he attempted to do, does it really matter at this point?

SPEAKER_01 38:50

I don't think it does. I but that's my thing, I do think it does. If we're talking about revolution in the historical sense of the Black Panther Party, like the French Every 5 was based on the Weathermen, which were an actual paramilitary group, and they were like led by white leftists. And Fred Hampton literally critiqued them and was like, this is not the way to go about revolution. You're not you shouldn't just go around blowing shit up. That's not gonna give you what you're looking for. Fred Hampton, who was one of the leaders of the Black Panther Party, um, he was the head of the the chapter in Chicago, was assassinated by the United States government. And I feel like the Black Panther Party is also always associated with violence, but the Black Panther Party is was not violent just because they were opposed to how Martin Luther King decided to go about non-violence. They were just armed because they the American government was literally killing, murdering, assassinating their leaders in real time. So they were armed for protection. There's a difference. And I think when we're talking about violence, as far as like not the way about this, like, yes, like that can be the takeaway. But also I'm just thinking historically, again, the context of when you put a black body in a story that wasn't about or based off of a black revolution, and then you're inserting that, and then the history that comes with this, this is when I say casting is 85% of the storytelling. Because now you're putting a body into this that had that comes with a history, that comes with a culture that you need to be careful and responsible about. So 20 years after this, and I look back on this movie, yes, this is gonna matter. Yes, this is gonna matter because it's the way that we are still depicting black women.

SPEAKER_04 40:34

No, I meant like when I meant doesn't matter, I meant what he says. Oh, because it's what you it's what you just said, right? Yes. No matter what he says, you're gonna look about it in 20, 40 years, it would it change your thoughts about the movie? No. No matter, no matter what he says, huh? No matter even if he says exactly what you know, quote unquote the I don't, it's weird what I'm about to say. Like the right thing is to say, yeah, would it change anything on it?

SPEAKER_01 41:01

And you know, that's what I just to be that's what I meant about that. Yeah, sorry, I was also listening and looking at the same time.

SPEAKER_04 41:07

So I can't even of course it matters the intent behind the movie. I'm just saying, like, once the the once the thing is out there, it's out there.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Yeah, and I think you know, even why my frustration about this um post-win interview was I feel like I would have been happier of being like with him being like these this movie is obviously sparking a lot of debate and a lot of conversations, and I hope that we continue to have these conversations, and I hear your critique, and I don't know what that means for me right now, but I'm gonna take time to figure that out. Something, something like that. Maybe that was the right quote unquote right thing to say, but I'm not asking him to say sorry for what he made. It's we're past that point.

SPEAKER_04 41:52

My thing is addressing the conversation around the movie is one thing. Like, for example, okay, we're having a conversation about this movie, but I think it would be ridiculous to not say that the conversation we're having right now is extremely personal. And what I mean by that is like for you, but for me too. Girl, listen, I did not grow up here, and I I will say, you know, I have like some education, I'm not stupid. There's still a lot of education about this country and racial dynamics history that I don't grasp and I don't understand, you know. So I'm not gonna pretend that I do. Yeah, but I experienced this movie as a European with some understanding. And what I mean is like a lot of what you said, it's fair. I just I missed it, and it's just it's interesting because, especially with uh a best picture, that representation, like I mean, people around the world have seen this movie and we're gonna receive it differently. And I'm just saying it's just kind of I'm I feel like I'm speaking uh like in riddles, but I what I'm trying to say is it's just funny to me when we're talking about representation for an American audience in an American film, and when we're talking about a film like around the world, because I can tell you something when I watch this movie, and right now I'm gonna speak as like a full-on European, okay, that grew up with like the American postcard of the sunset on the road and like and all this shit. I watch that, I'm like, this is America. You see what I mean? I'm like, this is America, and that's yeah, I see what you're saying. That is the issue. Yes, I know, I know, and that's why I'm like that's why I'm like digesting this conversation as we speak, because there's a lot to unpack, right? We're talking as audience members, but also as filmmakers, also with the conversation of representation, what it means, and even let's be real, the big danger here it's not even representation. We can't even talk about those things anymore. Yeah, we can't. You said it yourself. There's so much noise around this conversation, yeah, to the point that, like, a lot of what you said to me, I

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Didn't know. Because I I didn't know. And a lot of people are coming into this not knowing a lot. And you know, one thing that I would agree with with this film is that it is a uniquely American film. As an American, I'm a Haitian American, but as an American who grew up a black woman in the South, to come into contact with people's perception of me without them even knowing who I am from Adam. What is the perception that people have of you? I'm actually asking. Yeah, I think like for me personally to receive this film and to be somebody who is already perceived as if I have a if I'm having a bad day as somebody who is angry or um yeah, aggressive, I'm a no-nonsense, bull, no bullshit kind of person. And it's just like I've never really kind of been allowed to be a silly goose. Like I feel like the people who I'm who I love and who I'm around, I am like that. But out in the world, like I'm not given that opportunity, that freedom.

SPEAKER_04 44:58

To be fair, I will say something real quick. I know you a little bit. Yeah, and I will tell you something. To me, you're one of the kindest persons, you know. Like it's easy to have a conversation with you, all of this. Yeah, I would not fuck with you, that's for sure. But I think also just just again, very personal thing. Yeah, you commend respect, you know. And uh, I'm sorry if the way you felt it is that you provoke intimidation, but for me, because I see what you're saying, for me, it's just you command respect, that's all. I'm gonna think twice about saying something to you, and I think that's a strength. And whoever tells you or or makes you feel like it's not just an asshole.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

I mean, and and I wish that the rest of the world, you know, saw me in the way in which you do, right? And and I think that's why black communities, black women specifically, are so protective of our image in media. Because it's like we're always toting on this this very thin sheet of ice of are we gonna be able to walk across the lake or are we gonna fall? Because it does matter how we're perceived, how we come into certain spaces. Of course. And it does matter that, like, you know, a lot of people do not have this historical knowledge of how to approach these conversations and why we're upset about these types of things. And I think also hot take. I honestly I've been thinking, I don't necessarily know, let me just speak for myself. If I would have been as upset about this film if there was a plethora of other films that had accurate representation of black women, if there was just more diverse storytelling in the Oscars this year, or in general, that comes out to the theater. In general, like mainstream, like people were talking about these representations of blackness, like they're so few and far between, like even me thinking about moonlight, how that movie took the typical notion of gangster, what a black gangster was, and what that meant and what that looked like. Like, that was so radical and revolutionary, queerness even in that film. If there was more moonlights in the world, if there were more sinners in the world, I don't think people will be so up in arms about one battle after another.

SPEAKER_04 47:08

Okay, but here's I you know, maybe what I would say is apple to oranges, and fuck it if it is. But that's my point, right? Like if we tie it up to you know what we talked about last week, which was representation with Warner and Netflix who gets to make movies, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:24

There is a difference when we talk about studio films and like author's independent movie. Okay, this is not one battle after another, it's not an independent movie. No, okay, they don't get over 100 million, but it's an author movie, okay? Yeah, author, whether we like it or not, it means that you're watching someone's point of view and opinion. You like it, you don't like it, you think it's accurate or not, it doesn't fucking matter, right? Because it is their view on the world. They're not making uh educational documentary, this is real life, yeah. Yeah, so my point is when people, I'm not saying you, obviously. Yeah, I'm just saying if we talk about the film boroughs, we're gonna talk about the other extreme, yeah? Yeah. When people say this movie should have not been allowed to be made and blah blah blah, I'm like, shut the fuck up. It's art, okay? Like it's art. You not liking it, us having this conversation, in a way, that's the richness, and that's what's important, that we can have the conversation, that's what we should that that you're gonna fucking hate that movie and be like, you know what, I'm gonna I'm gonna make my movie, yeah, and and see that that's what matters, right? Yeah, so in what you say with Moonlight, we need more points of views. Yes, we need more. This is my you know, we need more filmmakers that are like, okay, I saw this movie, fuck you for that. This is my response to this. That's a healthy business.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

And that's a healthy business. Yes, that's a healthy business, but we don't have a healthy business. We don't have a healthy business.

SPEAKER_04 48:47

No, but it's the good news is it's it's not healthy in any ways. No, it's not, meaning when we talk about representation of minorities or of women, it's better than it's been. Okay, like we're not gonna lie, everything's better. It can be even better, but hey, everything crumble, girl. So we're not like we're not here begging an institution that is completely healthy to like change its ways. We're not. We can build that. We are the filmmakers that can do that, and that's why also for us it's important to talk about because again, you and I are both filmmakers, yes. Yes, we grew up in different ways, we have different points of views. Yes. Uh look at the way I look where I grew up. Uh my cinema, it's not gonna, it's not that complicated to keep in mind the film I'm gonna make in my career. That doesn't mean that there's not gonna be diversity, that's not what it means, but their particular point of view. I doubt that you and I will represent the same point of view. And fuck yeah, that's great. Can't wait to watch your movies. I'm sure the same with the same with me, right? But you know, I think some of the debate that has been lost for me is that the past few years there was a disconnect between studios and representation and like you know, audiences that were demanding representation. Meaning, I think a lot of the representation that we did get was gratuitous and there was no thought behind it, you know, with secondary characters that were just like fucking cliches and tropes. Or even main characters, like yeah, you know, no, but it's been what I mean is in terms of opportunities for you know, performers, the door opened because on secondary roles, the roles that are easier to get when you start off a career, I guess is what I'm trying to say, right? But the main characters remain more or less white, right? What has gotten lost is that the representation that we have seen in media in those past few years has been made by white executives that have a profound disconnect with what the issue is. So now when there is, you know, this debate with one battle after another, let's call it the Thumbbro side, or you know, the side that doesn't understand what the issue is, they think it's just more noise when it's like, what do you mean? You asked for something, it was given to you. It sucks, by the way. Yeah, and now you're still not happy. Yes, that that's that's what people are thinking. Yes. Are they wrong in thinking that way? Of course they are, but at the same time, by we need to address the fact that like all of this representation, not all of it, but the one where you're like this really sucks, was made by white people.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Yeah, you know, I mean, but and it's not even just white people who make poor representations of all, but it's easier to say that like I don't know the names of anyone. Tyler Perry. I whispered it, but even then, like, okay, there needs to be to kind of just take us home here, this last conversation of just like general representation of just like wanting more. Like, I feel like the black community has been begging for for media, for filmmakers to depict us with care and with grace and with intention and with nuance. And so when something like this comes up, of course it's gonna inevitably spark debate and inevitably piss a lot of people off. And they're all valid and feeling like that. And like, because also even if we're talking about the budget of this film, one battle after another, I think this was made for like 170 million dollars. Yeah, so a lot of a lot of money was spent, you know, it's just like who else is gonna get the opportunity to make an autour film that is the you know, foil or the response to one battle after another and get that 170 million dollar budget. Is I think that's kind of like the essence of this conversation of life.

SPEAKER_04 52:48

Yeah, okay. I don't think the I don't to be fair, I don't think like the response would need to be that expensive because then we need to like go into why like like sinners in one battle after another were expensive for completely different reasons. The cast was completely different. Yeah, I mean like the the the concept of a bankable actor or A-list actor is very different today than it used to be before because you can have Tuesday, you can have someone be a nobody, then something comes out from a small country on Netflix, and Thursday they're like the biggest stars, right? Which that wasn't true before. Yeah, however, if you're gonna talk about the few A-listers that remain, yeah, uh one battle after another, Piquan as its protagonist, yeah. Leo.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:32

I mean, some of arguably the greatest filmmakers of our time won their Oscars directing through him, yeah. You know, and there's not many actors like this. So I guess my point was just like Sinners, the doubt was is it gonna bomb or not financially? But most importantly, is this gonna get awards or not? I don't like comparing sinners to one battle after another because I think just sinners is like and I don't think we should, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Like that's not my debate here. Just because they're in the same slate, I think that's yes, yes, but and I think like just talking budgets-wise, my comparison is not as the films in their art forms, like that's not what I'm trying to do here, but the opportunity for people to get budgets to make films, you know, yeah, and who those people get to be, you know. And granted, yeah, like I think the conversation needs to be in the continuing to find voices of a generation to represent a generation, you know, and like who are we allowing to do that? Who are we funding? Who are we supporting to do that? Like again, filmmaking is an art that needs to be uh invested into and needs to be patroned and it needs to be supported. Who are the filmmakers that we are seeking and supporting?

SPEAKER_03 54:49

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 54:50

I do feel like there used to be a time where minorities just like weren't getting the opportunities to make movies, yeah, right? I don't think that's as true anymore. I think more the issue is like first-time filmmakers and people that are beginning in this art, the bridge is no longer there. It's very fucking hard to make a first movie to have the money, and even when you do get to make it, now the issue is having people see it, right? That's my maybe I'm wrong. But I think we have more of a generational issue now. Whereas before it was really like if you're not like a cool uh young white straight guy, like you're not gonna get to make movies. Yeah, like you're not. I don't think it's as true today.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

But I do think it's like also the kinds of movies though, like that certain filmmakers get to make, which I think is very like you can look at the Oscars, the films that are awarded that are by black filmmakers or feature a large black cast, are movies like Twelve Years of Slave, are movies like The Help, are movies like One Battle After Another. These movies that have particular caricatures of black people in derogatory fashions. Like I want more Rylanes, I want more Love Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_04 56:10

I guess my question here where I'm getting confused is like your like like I like character versus just stories.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

It's it's character, but it's also it's character and a story. It's like I just want to see this crazy day with this black woman who goes through this crazy adventure. But those are not the types of films that get funding and get awards.

SPEAKER_04 56:33

You know, it's funny because I feel like that is true also with like queer stories, you know. If someone's not like dying or like sad or like there's no tragedy. And I think we're kind of like slowly evolving past this. Like, for example, right? I think that when people say for talk about like female representation, I feel like if people say, Well, we never get to see like um villains, like women that are like great villains, and uh you know what I'm saying, you know what we debated. I don't think I think that's an old conversation today. I think there's still like a lot of conversation to have about female representation, but I think that particular point is old news, and I think slowly here also we're shifting, just because it's easier for people to make things, yes, it's much easier to to do something, to have a response to something, even if like the quality is not gonna be there, like you can't. So I think that's I agree with you. I think that's slowly shifting just because also audiences are getting bored, it's the same stories over and over again. You want to be surprised a little bit, yes, you know, sinners, you like it, you don't like it, doesn't matter. There's a strong point of view behind it, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Right, there's something we're taking away from this.

SPEAKER_04 57:45

But for example, if talking about European audiences that have seen sinners and one battle after another, a lot of people love both, some people didn't like both, but there is one. You have like an action film where, like, even if you turn your brain off to what the character means, I mean you're on the road, bam bam, bam. Whereas like sinners, it feels like this too with vampires, but there's a lot of people that are not American that missed the fucking point. And to be real, if I had never moved here, whatever, maybe I would have missed a big part of the point too. Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

I'm not and I think like again, you know, I would say Sinners is a uniquely American black film. And because I hope the hope in seeing Sinners, if you don't understand it, is that you're curious enough to find out what was he trying to do? What am I missing here? What don't I understand? That's the power of film, of media. But I think also nowadays it's like I don't know if everybody has that curiosity or that care to engage with something that doesn't automatically give them that instant gratification of understanding. Well, you know, I feel like also that's like that's also personal taste.

SPEAKER_04 58:58

Like you'll have some movies that people will be like, you know what, I get it. Just am I gonna spend some of my time trying to understand that particular character? No, I don't give a fuck. And you know what? Fair enough, that's fine. Just don't don't go out there expressing. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

Just like, you know, just say you don't know, and that's okay to take this home for the for the last time. I think yeah, we just need more representation. And I think that people, especially black women, are entitled to feel how they want to feel about this film, and everybody needs to listen to them because we're trying to impart something on you that we don't even want to impart for that matter. Like, I don't want to teach y'all about this, I know this because I have to, because I exist in the context, I didn't fall out of a coconut tree, okay?

SPEAKER_04 59:45

But I I didn't know some of this because I didn't have to. So no, but it's true, girl. Yes, it's fucking true. Like, it's a complex issue, and I agree with what you're saying, and I think even me, you know, with this whole conversation, it's like um we debated some, and I think as filmmakers, like there are things that I'm I'm gonna stand by. Like, it's tough to say what should be made and what shouldn't be made, but like as an audience member, like girl, I'm learning. I don't know. Like, I think that the Chiara from 10 years ago would have given you a very different response, and the Chiara in 10 years will probably like give you a different response too, right? Yeah, and I so it's a little tricky.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

And it's like these conversations need to be had, and this shouldn't be the only conversations being had about this. And I hope this conversation continues to be had, and I wasn't coming out of this, you know, being like, this is the solution of how to fix this film. Like, that's not the point. As I'm I was navigating this conversation, it's just like the critiques and how we invest in more, I think, just like diversifying more, investing more in filmmaking and storytelling, um, and having more opinions out there. Like, that's the point.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:57

Because it's okay to say, like, this shit's not for me, here's why. As a and again, those conversations are different for me as an audience member and as a filmmaker. Yeah, they are different conversations, they have to be. Because when you experience and the other one, you try to identify what rubbed you the wrong way or what didn't, and how you can learn from that in your craft. Yeah, so it's a little different, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

But yeah, whatever. So we're gonna take a little break and then we'll come back and we'll talk about Gen Z saving Hollywood.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:27

Yeah, saving Hollywood. Okay, so I guess I guess the best way to phrase this really is that last week, through the Warner Netflix Paramount acquisition, we started an exploration of like what the future of the industry could be, right? For moviegoers and for us as filmmakers. Yeah. So obviously we're speculating, right? Like we'll have to like live through it and make movies and suffer, but it's always fun to speculate a little bit and pushing the speculation of you know what our future could look like. There's this article.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

There was an article um released earlier this month by the Hollywood Reporter titled Can Gen Z Save Hollywood? And essentially, Gen Z was the generation that I guess executives and people who predict market trends was seeing us as the generation that would essentially not value the theater going experience as um other generations had because we we were, for lack of a better word, and because I just read this, the native generation of like the internet, right? We grew up with YouTube and TikTok and the beginning of the iPhone, really, um, where we kind of had media accessible to us in a variation of different formats, like you know, going from YouTube videos and like chocolate rain to now TikTok, well, Vine, then TikTok of like Vine's whole concept was creating content that was six seconds or less. That destroyed our brains in unbelievable ways. And then there was music-y, don't forget about music, musically, and then you know, TikTok, which has also grown as far as expanding the length of content because you know it used to be 60 seconds to 90 seconds, and now I think you can post up to something that's like 15 to 30 minutes on TikTok at this point. Really? Yeah, I think so. 15 minutes for sure. Um 30 might be a lie. Um, you can fact check me on that. Um, but we are the generation where um I think it's like Ben Stiller, he was in an interview and he was like, executives are now asking writers to reiterate there was also a bit about this at the Oscars with um Conan and Sterling K. Brown, where they're redoing Casablanca. And in Casablanca, they're reiterating the plot because usually when people are consuming media, especially if you're streaming something at home, you're also doing 500 500 other things, but specifically also just doom scrolling on your phone. So to help make sure that people aren't aren't misunderstanding or losing the plot because they're literally not paying 10 paying attention to it, executives are asking people to reiterate the plot in many times from an episode or a movie, yeah. But also within like the first 15 minutes of a movie or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:35

Yeah, so people don't lose the plot. Yeah, because now I guess the direction is like you're writing for the secondary screen. The first screen is the iPhone, right? But I guess what's interesting is that so Gen Z, our generation, we're Gen Z.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

We're we're in so Gen Z.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:52

Like I'm like I'm unsure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

Let me let me bring it up for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:56

Because like Robert Pattinson said he was Gen Z. So, like, what is even Gen Z at this point? I don't know. Robert Pattinson is Gen Z. Listen, that's what he said. No, he's not Gen Z. I know, but he publicly came out as Gen Z.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

Come out as a girl. I guess I'll guess he was born in 1986. He he's a millennial. Says who? Okay, so Gen Z is the years roughly between 1997 and 2012. And within that, there's a micro generation of a zenial, which is the cusp of that, which takes place between 1994 and 1999. So Zillennials are what makes Zillennials different from Gen Z is that they existed in a time where physical media was still apparent, and they also existed within a time where the very early beginnings of social media of having the world at your fingertips, whereas Gen Z only fully knows that world. Like I grew up with a corded telephone plugged on the wall, I did not have a cell phone. I had to call all my friends on the telephone on my wall. And everybody in the house could also pick up any other house phone and hear what I was listening to. Very 90s coded, right? You know, I had a very long string that I would wrap around into the bathroom so I could have privacy to talk to my friends. Um you see that sounds great. You know, no, but you know, but my cousins who are also considered Gen Z, who are younger than me, that are that were born in like 2006 and 2012, they never grew up with a house phone. I still have a house phone to this day. Really? Yes, I do. The only people who calls us are like collectors and like spam calls, but we still have a house phone to this day. Do you know it by heart? Yes, I do. I'm not gonna say my phone number on the fucking say right now. These 50 people who if you really know me, you have my you have my home phone number.

unknown 1:06:53

I don't have it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

It's so funny to me that on an iPhone, there's still a home phone and a mobile phone option because when iPhones were first created, people still did have home phones. Yeah, I know. Girl, we sound so old.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:07

We sound so old. No, but I'm telling you, for me, the the burger phone in Juno was the ultimate fantasy. Yeah, like the ultimate fantasy. But, anyways, we grew out of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

Yeah, so you know, us being in this, essentially, this article is breaking down how now Gen Z are people who, you know, are really buying tickets to go to the movies, buying They're lonely, desperate people, is what the article says.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:34

The article says that we're so thirsty for social interaction and quote unquote analog things that people go to the movie theater to be able to experience like being with a community and in the same room as other people.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

That is what the article says. And it's not that is literally what it's not necessarily wrong. I do think that, especially living in New York, people crave third spaces. And I think the movies is like a really great one because it's not centered around, like, yes, you're still spending money, but not as much as if you're going to a dinner, and also not as much as if you're going out to a bar. Which the article also talks about of this, this our generation, like kind of not being heavy drinkers in the way of other generations. Like, we're taking to spending our time at the movie theater. And also, because we are so socially native, like internet native people, it's an opportunity for us to be a part of the conversation that is having around pop culture. So, you know, the Jacob Ballordi's and the weathering heights of it all, the Charlie XCX's and the moment of it all, using social media film platforms like Letterboxd to talk about movies as well. Because social media now is the point of why we do everything. It's kind of also what the article is saying as to why um Gen Z is being attracted to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:00

Yeah, and plus, you know, I feel like whether you're on social media or like scrolling, it's like permanently experiencing like the projected fantasies of other people's lives, like alone. Whereas here it's like you go in this in this beautiful dark room and you get to experience like one common fantasy with everyone, which is which is great, which is very special. Yeah, you know, but I think it's just it's just quite funny that the generation that was really supposed to like put us in the ground is the one that could potentially save it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

When I first read the article, I was like, well, duh, of course we're gonna save the theaters. I feel like, yes, we are the generation that might have had our brain chemistry altered because of our attention spans, but we're also like we came up in such an innovative time in society and like in media. You know, we learned how to tell stories in six seconds or less. Like, even thinking about TikTok and how like now you have TikTok shows and you have people writing out whole scripts or like even to be producing whole series on TikTok, like that being a format of like storytelling. I feel like the trend the bridge doesn't seem crazy to me as far as like Gen Z becoming this generation of and we're also just like the next step of generations of filmmakers that are about to be making our first feature films in the world. That that's true.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:23

I think you know, talking about like those new storytellers and telling stories in less than six seconds, I feel like also we're an impatient generation. Like that's the thing. And the thing about being in a movie theater is that if you're bored and you wish that things would go faster, well you can't you can like get up and leave, but you'll lose money and you probably won't because of like shame, you know. But if you're in your house, like the amount of people that will abandon a movie within like five minutes if something crazy hasn't happened, or like because they're quote unquote bored. You know, I I just think it's funny that like this generation that doesn't have like the best attention span and needs constant stimulation is willing to go to this like you know, this way of like consuming art where you can't just like move on to the best next thing if you don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:14

Well, this is also good for this generation because it's something that we need. I do, I am curious though, about how that impacts the structure as we know it of films. In the um Matthew McConaughey and Timothy Chalamet conversation that we also discussed last week. We're gonna talk about this forever. This is the blueprint. It is the blueprint where it's all.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:36

I will not talk about this forever. What just talk about it the next episode? What should come up?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

But within that conversation, uh Timothy Chalamet was like, Well, you know, now you have where it was common to have your big finale towards the end with your huge set of pieces and explosions towards an end of the film. You're now really getting those at a beginning of a film because of this generation. So I don't think art making should be an algorithm, but in the age of streaming, it really is. And so I wonder how that then will affect the structure as we see it of like what's a now the 3x structure of a Gen Z film look like? Because a lot this article also points to like Gen Z doesn't like the franchises of films from older generations.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:24

I think that's completely fair, but you know that thing where like it's like if you're blah blah blah, we can be friends. Yes. You know that if you like the Jurassic Worlds better than the original Jurassic Park, we can't be friends. I'm sorry, girl, like what if someone came up and said that to you. But that's an age difference. No, it's not it's not an age difference. What do you mean? One is like epic, yeah, one is like iconic, you know? One has Laura Dern in it. Okay, yeah, the others don't.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

Yes. Need I say more? Well, I can't really comment on this because I don't tell me you haven't seen it. I've seen the original Jurassic Park, but I have never seen Jurassic World. Okay, that's the good answer.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:06

I thought you were about to say the other way around, and we're gonna have to stop this.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:10

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:10

I was gonna like make a public declaration that we're ending. Screening was just over. Not me. I'm sorry, like irreparable differences. Um but yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

Like that was the important point to make, you know. But yeah, I don't I do feel like the article does get this right of like wanting analog um experiences again. Like, there's like Gen Z in some part of the country, I don't remember where, is like having a resurgence of physical media of getting DVDs again.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:40

And it's like everywhere, like here, like the Barnes and Nobles, like the the Criterion part of the Barnes and Nobles, like that's the place to meet my best friends. Like, come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:52

And shout out to Criterion for kind of always keeping that because because I think the culture around being a film buff and a cinephile is like, oh, this is a cult, this is a fad of a group that I want to be a part of, and so physical media is cool, but like you can you can see this. I feel like it really started to me. I would pinpoint this to COVID. COVID, like I got a film camera and started to shoot on film. I know a couple other people who did too, but like this return to like mediums and processes that take the use of your hands to do, like you know, the the idea of like process, you know, and of texture and of touching things.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:32

I have to say, like, I was always cool. Like I started the record collection way before I was cool. Uh, you know, I was just like I was born a manic pixie dream girl. Like, I was no, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. And you know what's interesting? Like, last week we talked about the fact that kind of the reason why like streamers took such a big place is because they kind of killed the other ways of distributions that a movie had, you know, and how we used to make money. Like, for example, in DVDs in the past, yes, DVDs, right? And physical media. Well, look at that. Gen Z is bringing that back, right? There's an actual market now beyond people that are just like thumbnards, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:16

I mean, I think it's also like we're in like this late stage capitalism, this fascism. People are, I see it all the time. People joking, being like, get physical media, go start buying your books, like things are gonna start to be funny and like be censored in a way. And it's like you can't censor something that is already kind of like put out into the world. So I also just wonder if it's like Gen Z being particularly influenced by this state of the world as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:45

But girl, don't you feel like that's ultimate capitalism? Like put a price on like go by this thing that you never thought you needed and you thought that we grew out of because you just might. Isn't that like ultimate capitalism?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:02

I mean it is. We're we're in the throes of capitalism, you know, we can't exist in this society and in this world in this time without participating in it. But I do find that also really interesting of like people being like, you need to have physical media. I think it's like coming to this point in time where you can't trust your eyes, like because of AI. Um, and also like this creation of like, is this photo real or not? Is this video real or not? And now you have a generation who can't read older text. Maybe like two generations from now, like in the future, like they can be like the constitution and be like, yeah, that's made up. The foundation of the country is made up. I mean, it is made up.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:42

I I was about to say it is made up, girl.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:44

I mean, but it is made up, but that I feel like it leads to a plethora of things.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:48

I mean, to be fair, there's still a shit ton of people that think that the earth is flat, that Stanley Kubrick like shot the landing on the moon, like you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

Like whatever. And I think also this too, with this particular generation, not only on how they might change how the structure of a film gets made, but also how we talk about film in general. This this notion of have you ever seen bean soup on TikTok? Bean soup, no? Yes. Oh my god. What's bean soup? Bean soup is so good, is this woman who posts a recipe for a bean soup. And in the comments, people are just like, Well, what if I don't eat beans? What if I'm allergic to beans? What do I do now? Well, the recipe isn't for you. That's that's literally just what it is. It's for people who like beans. This is also the generation.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:41

I'm so sorry, but there's so many people that could hear that and say, Well, that's the thing about one battle after another. Okay, but that's it's just that's the point I'm making.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:50

Not your bean. It's not, it's and it's not my bean. I'm a black bean, I'm a black bean, and that's giving kidney or or canelli. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:03

I don't even know what kind of bean I am.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

Italian wedding suit. I don't know. But but this notion that we because Gen Z grew up in a time of social media, especially when Instagram was created and it was just like this thing where you would post the, you know, you're kind of like blogging. Like, you know, we're all just trying, it's like feels like a very safe, fun time. We're all just kind of posting these terrible, heavy filtered photos. We're awesome. Heavy filtered photos of each other and of our like cookies and us duck facing in a photo. But now it gets it's gotten to the point where your algorithm is so tailored to match the way you think, the way you see the world, that you live kind of in the silo of that everything that I consume is aligned with me, but that's not how the world works. So then it's just like, okay, how then we now interact with people who might inherently disagree with us, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:02

Which that I think, you know, is like a great way to talk about art, you know? Yeah, and the way people receive art today. It's kind of we we talked about this a little earlier with our conversation with one battle after another. My problem sometimes with the discourse that people have today is like saying that something shouldn't exist to me is insane. Yeah. Unless we know what we're talking about. When we're saying something shouldn't exist, we know what we're talking about. But even then, like it's art. Okay, it's meant to provoke a reaction, it's meant to have a conversation. Censorship is dangerous. But, anyways, my point is like you're completely right. People are not they're not used to having their feathers ruffled anymore. So they the feathers are ruffled all the time, yes, you know, which is like it's fucking annoying. Because art is what what is art? It's about like for me, it's about outrage in a way. You know, it's like it's about shock. But if you have someone that's shocked at the bare minimum, and by you know what ends up happening? We have media and movies that are just vanilla, they're just fucking boring because people are so afraid of being offensive. And I'm like, you know what? No, that's boring. That's so boring. Everyone looks the same, they say the same shit, it's the same trope. It's like, give me different, yeah, you know. I want different, I want like I have trouble looking at this different, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:23

And then, and then so I think it's also which I don't think this particular article gets into, is just like, what is the kind of media and content that Gen Z gravitates towards? I would say, you know, again, coming from a age of physical media, like I grew up with watching the things that my c my millennial cousins were watching, and you know, like having this deep love. I feel like I come from a movie family in a different way than you come from a movie family. Like, I come from a family, like again, we every Friday we went to the dollar movies to go watch whatever movie was in the movies at that point, and then even as I'm getting older to like buying like DVDs, like bootleg DVDs of films in the theaters, then to the age of streaming, like yes, that, and when we would gather as a family, in some shape or form, we were always sitting down at any gathering that we were at to watch a movie, whether that's Christmas, whether that's Thanksgiving. And so being raised in that way and being raised, like I have a huge family, so I I'm influenced by both millennials and boomers in my family. I think the way of that I consume media and that I have built a relationship to media is different than somebody who is like late Gen Z 2012 or Gen Alpha like me. Yeah, like media, who's like, you know, there's a different relationship there. So like I think our tastes are different. To not to say I didn't go back, like, but I knew the Spike Lee, like I knew the um the Scorsetti, like I knew the Tarantino, but I don't know if Gen Alpha knows those, right? Unless you're like invited to be a part, like to be a Cinephile. So then you go back and you study, you know, like these things.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:08

But to be fair, those song makers, they're they have pretty memeable that's movies, so that's movie they they do know. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:16

But I but they're saying Score says he's on TikTok because of his daughter, yeah. Yes, and it's so funny because I grew up in the age of Tumblr when it was truly the one of the best social medias out there back in the day. Like I remember seeing a meme of um Angela Bassett in Waiting to Exhale, where she's burning the car, and I was just like, I don't know where that's from, but I have to find it because I need to watch whatever is going on. That's where you watched it? Yes, that's so funny from Tumblr. Like, so I think also like being in social media, it expanded my world of film, especially Tumblr, I would say. But I'm unsure right now with Gen Z and Jen Alpha, the maybe not the accessibility, but the curiosity. Because in this again, in this article, I think I'm trying to find where they're saying that they don't like films that are from generations. Because I do think that also studios for safety are remaking films all the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:15

I I think what you're saying is that what we like is we like original, we like things that feel like I don't know how to say, but like like there's a fingerprint on it. Does that make sense? Yeah, we like original things, we like weird stuff. For example, you see with horror, right? Yes, horror, which is like number one genre where people like go to the movie theaters to see it, right? Yeah, we had like a whole wave with like psychological horror where like you know the monster and what was scary was like some metaphor for some whatever, okay. Like basically nothing happens the entire movie, just a few kind of juncts jump scares, and that's it, that's the end. Okay. Now people want to be stimulated. There's a reason why terrifier and the substance worked so well, you know. Yeah, like I mean, the substance awesome, obviously, but I mean there's something so visceral about it, yeah. And I feel like that's something that our generation is craving too. Because we're also like we're scared, we're anxious, like we can't afford to like buy a house. So we're not gonna like our minds not gonna be preoccupied, but like um thinking like, oh my god, I can just like do this and go buy my house and have this great life. No, this is not gonna happen for you. Like, the best our generation can fucking afford is like boo-boos. That's terrifying. Oh my god, the thought that that was something people were flexing on, it's like 12 cent little thing that is terrifying to me. I want a house, but anyways, we want things that are visual because we can't explain what is going on, everything is going on so fast, it's so much information, and I think that like we're just looking to escape, you know, escape with art and like have all those like visceral feelings that you can only experience sometimes through art, you know, that you experience with life, but it's just a little different.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:09

I'm reading the article now, and it's saying it's critical to the industry's future that studios prioritize 21st century brands over older IP that mainly resonates with 35 plus and a 45 plus crowd. Gen Zers don't want their parents' franchises. And I think you know that is true of like, I want us to have the next Harry Potter. What does that look like? What does that mean in this time, right now? Well, I guess we're about to know, aren't they making her show? We're not gonna talk about that. We're not gonna talk about that, and we're not gonna talk about that lady. We're never gonna talk about this. We're not gonna talk about that lady, not on this show, but yeah, I think it's it's interesting to me how this will impact, I think, the global market of film. Because I there has also been studies that American films recently are just really not penetrating the global market in the ways that they used to. And I wonder in this generation, because we are so much more connected because of social media, is it possible that that it will? Because even in our conversation of Sinners, like, but that's a very specific movie. It's a Sinners is a very American movie about a very specific black American community that's not as global as I don't know, Sentimental Value, which is a daddy issues movie. Because everybody in the world got daddy issues, but not everybody in the world knows the origins of Delta Blues music. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but one is in English. Well, yes, yes, yes, yeah, yes, but that's just like the world is not opposed to a subtitle in the ways that Americans are, you know, like yeah, that is true. Let's talk about YouTube for a second, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:26:53

YouTube is like our generation's great unifier in the way of like making movies and short films and content and like reaching an audience at a time where I mean we talked about this. The hard thing now is not even just making the movie, which is near impossible. Now it's like having people see your movie, get yeah, like reaching an audience, right? Whereas like YouTube, you know, which is Netflix's biggest competitor, you get that you do get your audience in your community. And I think what's interesting is that you have first of all the first technically Gen Z filmmaker who is 20. I mean, he was 20 when he signed a deal with A24 to make Backrooms, and Backrooms was a series of short film on YouTube, which you can go watch because YouTube is free and it's there. And I think one of them has like 75 million views, and altogether it's like crazy, yeah, it's even crazier than that. But he signed a deal with A24 and they're turning it into a movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:54

Well, it it's smart on A24 because yeah, the audience is a given right there. If they're gonna get 75 million views on one video. Imagine what that means globally for a film. Like it's a smart transit. That's when I'm just like, well, of course, Gen Z's gonna save Hollywood. Like to me, I'm just like, well, yeah, my generation's gonna save the world.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:14

And it was made with like no money. And like, even if you talk about like we talked about horror, but Iron Lung, you know what I'm talking about? No, I don't. This guy who like has this YouTube channel, this he basically like self-funded a movie and a horror movie, and he made so much money, but because he basically used his fans and his community to like go to the theater and like show up and buy tickets.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:40

Gen Z knows how to activate people via social media like no other generation can. Maybe Gen Alpha eventually in thinks, but the vast majority, I feel like, of the Gen Z career demographics are probably like content creators and influencers. Like, I think we have learned through social media such the niche, specifically also TikTok, such the niche groups of people that there are out there and how many of them there are out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:11

It's like funny, it's like we were so starved for like contact that we just find a different way to like reach out to communities.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:17

Yeah, but you know, Gen Z is a very good digital generation, like, because even in this article it's saying Gen Z is slowly growing to be a safe bet as far as they we can count on them to go to the theaters and purchase a ticket. I was just like, if you market up to us right, we will buy just about anything.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:36

Like you know, I I just pulled a number for like Iron Long. The guy like wrote, directed it, edited it. This YouTuber Mark Fishback, I think he's like Marky Plier on YouTube. Yeah, but anyway, self-finance budget estimated between three and four million dollars, and the film ended up making 50 million dollars globally. 50 million dollars.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:00

That's crazy. Well, that's also how we save this industry because no Tino Shea to PTA and Ryan Kugler both, but they worked up to being able to get those big budget films, you know. Yeah, that's not Tinoche, respect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Respect for the careers. Yeah, no, no. Like, you know, you don't you're just not handed a$170 movie when you're fresh on the scene of this industry. But I think that what's exciting about Gen Z as a filmmaking demographic embody of like knowing how to market ourselves, knowing how to get our content out, like we do it every day. We're walking brands now.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:39

So to see awful. I mean, it is awful, but that's absolutely awful.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:44

It's awful in a way, but I do think it's it makes me very confident in how marketing will be for movies going forward because maybe you're you're just a filmmaker, but you have a best friend who is a content creator or social media influencer and who can market the shit out of your film because you don't know how to. And I think like that duo could potentially really change this industry of being able to get people to see movies that you never thought were mainstream movies, you know, and get movies into theaters. And I think that's so exciting to think that you can make something that is low budget and make a profit, turn a profit on it and get people to watch your movie.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:25

100%. I think it's amazing. I think also part of the social media thing is also now Gen Z as filmmakers. Yeah. We have to be so creative in terms of marketing. Like a billboard, a billboard is expensive and it's boring. Okay, like it's boring now. And again, we're a generation that loves being stimulated. Yeah, we love that, we love being surprised. We always are looking for the next big thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:51

Yeah, we want to invest in something new, we want to see something that we've never seen before because we are we're constantly seeing things that no generation before us really had seen at our age, at the capacity to which we're seeing it.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:04

Yeah, imagine the OG movie, like those people in the room watching the train get in the station, and yeah, like, oh my god, are we gonna die? We want that feeling. Okay, we have access to everything at our fingertips.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:17

I think we crave, especially now with AI. I think Gen Z does crave things that aren't perfect. I think we lean towards that. And I think also because we're a generation that is constantly being sold to, we don't like it when things are like branded, obviously branded. Which I do find interesting because now big brands are starting to build their own production houses to create media, like gap. Other fashion companies are not a whole production, yes, they're starting to create production studios to make films and like to really enter into this industry as a competitor. That is both exciting because they're unlocking a source of capital that I think might be able to get some people to tell some really fabulous stories. But but it's also like now I'm watching this movie by Issaint Laurent, so I'm gonna buy Issaint Laurent, like it's weird.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:13

Girl, last I heard, you know who was getting into making movies. Chick-fil-A is launching a family-friendly streaming platform titled Chick-fil-A Play, featuring original animated shows, scripted podcasts, and unscripted game shows.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:29

I feel like we're living in an episode of Black Mirror. That's also interesting if those things are gonna fail or not. Girl, can you imagine? So, where can I find your movie?

SPEAKER_04 1:33:38

Oh, Chick-fil-A play. You know, you just gotta do this subscription for like seven days for free, and you can watch my fucking movie on Chick-fil-A play.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:47

That's so interesting. Oh. That's also scary in this time of like censorship and one side of the spectrum owning a lot of media, and then you're having other big capitalist corporations joining this industry to also push some kind of agenda. If you're not familiar with Chick-fil-A, they are a huge donor to like conversion camps and anti-LGBTQ propaganda. So it's like it's like the biggest guilt trip you could get into a chicken burger. Yes. Honor C that girl. Yes, yes, but it's just like that's I think it's also interesting as far as okay, Gen Z. The future is on our shoulders, yes, for this country and the state of the world and the nation, but also like what type of media we're gonna consume and how, what type of media we're gonna make and how. Are you gonna take as a first filmmaker the 1.5 million dollar budget from Chick-fil-A because they're easier to get money from than from going and struggling it out and trying to do it yourself?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:56

I'll just I'll just like to say on record that I'll take money from anyone. Like, I'll take to make my I'll take movie from anyone. I you know what? Like, I understand what you're saying, and you're right. We need to fight, we need to pick, but I will take money from anyone to make my anyone.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:13

All money I won't, all money's not good money. 100%. All money's not good money, and what are you making now with money from particular brands and particular people? It's just like it's not like this brand is bad and this brand is not bad, but it's just like if you think that this brand is not gonna have an opinion on what they're funding, you better count your days. Like, I know my girl, I completely agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:35

Yeah, I will take any cash that comes my way. Please write me a check. But also, I agree it matters, but I will take anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:44

Like I'm kidding, I'm kidding, it's a joke. Um, to wrap this up, it's um can Gen Z save Hollywood? Yes, but how they do it, that's that's a bigger question.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:57

Can Gen Z save Hollywood? Maybe not. Maybe they're gonna burn it down and just like build a new one, no? I hope for the latter. I have a match right there. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Jesus. No one's gonna fund us now, bro. Burn it. Burn it. Okay, Kiara, so what are you watching this week? What am I watching this week? Actually, two days ago I went to see Undertone. Have you heard of it? Yes, I have. You know, I was like, I didn't know because I I don't like it when a horror movie says like this is the scariest movie you'll ever see. I'm like, oh really? Is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:39

Is it? I don't think it is. But anyway, so I went with like that great attitude to have. Yes. But for context, it's like this Canadian supernatural horror film that was written, directed by Ian Tuesday. I don't know if I say that name right, but Ian Tuesen. And it's about this woman that hosts like a paranormal podcast with her friend when like you know, weird things start happening. And the movie was made for like$500,000, which is quite crazy, you know. Like we've been talking about like those movies and like those DIY filmmakers, like Sean Baker style, and like that's definitely that's part of why I went to see it. I wanted to support like someone who would make a movie like that, and honestly, I really did not have great expectations for it. And the movie surprised me in a very good way. I was scared towards the end in ways that I haven't been like in a while, you know. And also surprisingly, I feel like in a lot of ways now movies start very strong, and then you know, they're kind of like not as good towards the end. That movie is the opposite, like the beginning of it. I was like, okay, whatever. And then by the end of there, I was like, by the end of the movie, I was like, oh my god, this is actually like this is actually pretty good. Awesome. Yeah, so, anyways, I do recommend it. I recommend to go see in the theaters because it's always more fun to be scared with other people than alone. Yeah, that's what I watched. Period.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:06

What about you? I didn't watch this film this week, actually, but I'm recommending it just coming off of the Oscars. Lies. Okay, go for it. I I I watched it last week. It's the Alabama Solution, and it was nominated in the documentary feature category of the Oscars. You can watch it right now on HBO Max, and I 10 out of 10 recommend. It is a documentary about incarcerated men who are in the Alabama prison system and are essentially trying to uncover all of the terrible human rights violations and just their daily lives of living in constant fear of being, particularly in this system in America. The Alabama solution obviously are prisons, there are prisons in Alabama, which is one of the most deadliest prison systems in America. They're known to have the most overdoses, the most murders. It's a very fraught system. And so it just really cover uncovers about like how that came to be. So a lot of the footage in the film is screen recordings of calls with the directors or andor producers of the film talking about what's happening in a given time period at these attention centers. So it's amazing because you're seeing firsthand from these prisoners their daily life experience. And they even talk about how it is illegal for them to have phones, but why it's important to this particular movement, and like it's it's a really beautiful film that I think is kind of like the heart and soul of what documentary is supposed to be, as far as it's like empowering the subject in and of itself and allowing them to be the voice of the story. It's a really beautiful film, and I really think everybody should take the chance to watch it and understand and kind of like humanize prisoners. Like these are still people that are deserving of rights and human decency and kindness and compassion, and to be able to have the chance of rehabilitation because that's what they want. The American prison system is not a system that is set up to give them that. Um if you've never seen 13th by Ava Duvernay, oh my god, I feel like I'm I'm being a real teacher on this podcast today.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:42

Um my girl, I was just talking about that horror movie I was excited that I saw. And now you're like, so the prison system in America, I guess really like cinephilia is a spectrum, girl. It's a spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:56

It's a fucking spectrum. Um, but if you've never seen 13th by A. Rudy Renee, essentially part of the 13th Amendment in the Constitution is like denouncing slavery as something that can't happen anymore unless you commit a crime. So if you're arrested in the United States, you are subjected to slavery through the prison system. So this is kind of like showing America's loophole. Yeah, America. America's loophole. It is America's loophole. And so I think that is a great documentary to understand that particular systemic structure. But this documentary is really showing like the effects on the people that are subjugated to the system and also their families. So yeah, if you want to learn more about that, I recommend you watching the movie on a happier note, maybe. Yeah, that's gonna be fun on a lighter note, and we'll be talking about that definitely in next week's episode. So be on the lookout for that. Something a little less, less heavy.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:00

Yeah, girl. This episode was about remaking the world, and I am like, I'm like, like, was it a bunch of world vomit? Did we accomplish anything? Let us know.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:12

Well, you know, our goal is not to accomplish anything right now in this moment, but you know, maybe, maybe our generation will change the world. Who knows?

SPEAKER_04 1:42:21

You know, honestly, honestly, we're putting this out like for public shit. Like, let's let's just publicly let's say it. We are going to try to save the world, and you know why? Use this shit 10 years if we became like real bad people, use it against us. I'm an oil tycoon. In like 10 years from now, they're gonna be like, oh my god, what happened to her? I took money from the wrong person. Chick-fil-A.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:47

Well, that's our episode. Well, that's it. Thank you for tuning in. Thanks for for listening to us again, and next we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:57

And hopefully, uh, to the 10 people that are listening to us, we didn't scare one of you away. Like, bear with us. Give give us like a third chance.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:06

Yeah, it's only gonna get better, y'all.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:08

Yes, yes, or we'll cancel ourselves out.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:13

Bye for now.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:14

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:18

Thank you for listening to the screening list. If you love the show, you can follow us on Instagram at the screening list.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:25

This show is produced by Vox Films and Nuda Productions. Our audio editor is Chloe O'Donnell, cover art design by Griffin Reynolds, and original music by Evan B. And that's a cut.