When Horror Calls Audiences Back To The Theatre: Cheap to Make, Impossible to Ignore

Today, we are talking about the genre powering the box office — and quietly launching a new wave of filmmakers. 

Plus, your weekly industry temperature check: stranded capital and the industry’s transparency problem, what Bad Robot reveals about where things are headed, and the rise of vertical video and long-form series.

The Screening List is hosted by Maritza Cayo and Chiara Miniconi.

Produced by VoxFilms and NouLa Productions.

Edited by Chloe O'Donnell.

Artwork by Griffin Reynolds.
Music by Evan B.

Follow us on Instagram @thescreeninglist.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:05

I'm takeo, and I'm Ciaran Nicone. And this is The Screening List, a podcast where we talk about all things movies, especially the ones you need to be seeing. Today we are discussing horror films and their major role in rebuilding the theatrical experience and reconnecting with audiences.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Okay, creepy. Very creepy stuff. Um I'm so happy you finally watched this movie. Just just so I don't sound dumb. Like I watched this movie like two weeks ago and you watched it yesterday. So that's why you're gonna be sharper. But I can't wait to hear like what you thought.

SPEAKER_04 1:21

This movie was genuinely scary. It was really funny watching this movie. I love watching horror films specifically in theaters because I just feel like watching it with people and getting like a motley of people. Like when I bought this ticket, it was just supposed to be like me and my partner. There was nobody else who had bought a ticket, so to get in there, and then the theater honestly had packed itself out by the time we were in the actual movies. And I was sitting by another couple, and then these two younger children, not like like young children, but like teenagers. Yeah, I was like, that sounds irresponsible, like teenagers, and there was a moment in the movie, like you know, towards the end, and you know, she's like, Mama, those two teenagers got up and ran out of the theater, and me and my partner just busted out laughing. It was so good. It was like this movie was not funny at all, but seeing it with other people made it funny, which was also cool because it was it was generally scary.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

I think horror is like pretty funny when you walk because it's like it's kind of funny to be scared, especially in a collective, like you hear people like hold their breath or like scream a little bit. I think we'll we'll talk about more about this movie, what worked for us, what didn't work, but the one thing definitely that it delivered on was it was scary, yeah. And it sounds like the you know horror movie, it's gonna be scary, but no, you know, like there's a lot of movies, a lot of like quote-unquote horror movies that are marketed this way that are not funny, uh, that are not funny, that are not scary. They're not that either, yeah, they're not funny. Uh weapons was hilarious. Weapons was hilarious. Weapons was hilarious, I'm sorry. Um but my point is just like that's the number one promise that you make to your audience. Maybe the movie's not gonna be all that great, maybe the performances are not gonna be amazing, but you're gonna be scared. And as long as you're scared, then it's the deal is fine.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Yeah, I think it I think it's also so interesting because specifically with Undertone, it's a slow burn film. Not to say that it wasn't scary throughout, but I definitely felt like I was literally covering my hand on my like face, and I was like looking at the movie through my fingers very much towards the end when it like really picked up. I think it it did a really good job of building that moment building to that moment, but it was uh it's unlike any other sh scary movie because I do think it relies so much on the sound design, which was impeccable in this film. Like, I really thought it was such a fun, interesting, fresh take on a horror film, like really letting the horror live in the audio. Um, there's even a line that one of the actors say he was like, Don't be scared of the dark, be scared of the silence or something.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

But you know, that's a thing though that like a lot of people underestimate. Horror is a genre that's you know, like great for first-time filmmakers because it's cheap. Why is it cheap? Because you're afraid of what you don't see. Yeah, so most of the time, you know, horror is all about the lighting and it's kind of dark and you don't see much. In every horror movie, when you're really scared, it's about great sound design. Always the right crack of the floorboard at the right time, you know. Like, I'm gonna be a little less nice than you. I think like the beginning of the movie was straight up boring. Uh, like I was bored, like I was like, okay, but you know, my thing again is like if you scare me, we're fine. And then, which is rare, it's rare to do. It's easy to find movies that start off very well, and then it's kind of like whatever. Whereas this one, you know, it started off. I was like, Okay, let's go, you know, let's move along. And then it did pick up, it got scary. I was genuinely like scared, like uh fingers in my ears, closing my eyes. I was like, fuck no, try to dissociate. That was great, and I think that is pretty rare. Usually it's like the other way around, so that was great. Just for context, we're gonna talk right now, give a little pitch about Undertone. But the reason why also it's especially fun for us to talk about it is because it is a horror movie that is about podcasters.

SPEAKER_04 5:43

Yes, this is also exciting for us, not only as podcasters, but as filmmakers, because this is a directorial debut for Ian Tucson, and also uh he did this for very little money. This was this film had a$500 budget,$500,000.$550,000 budget.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Like literally, whoever makes a movie for five, a feature-length movie for$500, like shout out to you, shout out to you. I don't believe you, you're a liar, but yes, but um, yes, for$500,000, and I think even better than that, the real victory, the movie. So there it's a Canadian filmmaker, it's a Canadian movie applied for help from the Canadian government to like give them some money for the film, and they got rejected, they got no money, which you know, filmmakers we get rejected all the time. Like all the time, it's it's the humiliation is constant. But it's great to see a movie be rejected, make it for 500,000, and now you know, as we're recording this episode, it's made like over 15 million dollars at the box office.

SPEAKER_04 6:47

Yeah, it it it like made like 35 times its budget like back as far as like profitability, so that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

So you go, Ian. You go. Yeah, shout out to you. But uh to talk a little bit about what the movie is about, the film follows a paranormal podcast host who begins receiving disturbing audio recordings while caring for her dying mother in her childhood home. As she analyzes the mysterious files with her co-host, the horrors within them begin to seep into her real life. I was just gonna say the extra creepy thing for me is that the movie was shot, so when you watch the movie, you'll see it's basically one set, it's like a house, and it was shot in the filmmaker's childhood home where he did use to take care of his parents that were ill. So it's definitely like a very personal, you know, like blend of like personal grief and like folklore horror, and just I I think it makes it creepier.

SPEAKER_04 7:48

I do think that that's why the movie was like had this very slow burn quality as somebody who has like tended to a ill dying person. I feel like you can kind of feel the death in wherever you are, and I think like I felt that in this film. Like I think with horror, you know, horror is really a global genre in that it always kind of is dealing with some of themes that anyone can relate to: running away from death, dying, the things that go bump and creak in the night. Like it doesn't matter wherever in the world you are, like those, I think those are all things that people are genuinely, generally afraid of.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Well, I think it's the only truly universal genre because we're not all gonna laugh about the same thing, be amused, be moved, but we're all scared of what's hiding under our bed. Yeah. We all are, yeah. And again, if you're not, you're a liar.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

But that's why I I feel like this I understand why you say it was boring. Like I can also like feel the valid in that, but it felt I don't know, maybe I was also just like, I had had a little matcha before this, so I was like really in the zone of like seeing it and being open to it. And I do think that the sound really captivated and kept me throughout the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

I yeah, I think for me, sometimes at times I struggled with like how the performance was directed, you know. And so it just like, for example, you know, spoiler ahead, it's gonna happen. We're talking about a movie, so yeah, anyways, when you know she goes out to see that boyfriend at the party, who we never see again, by the way. Why was he there? We're unsure, anyhow. She comes back, her mom is like on the floor. Yeah, she gave me the same reaction as if it was like uh oh fuck, like I forgot to turn off the light for me. And I thought sometimes the the let me put it this way I thought that this director did some very impressive things with where he decided to put the camera, when to move it, and like I was scared, and that was it's hard to do, and it's hard to do like a movie in one place, yeah, without being bored or in one room. So that I thought that it was very impressive, especially for debut. Now I think as a director, and let's see what else he does, right? And we all evolve. Where there's more to learn is like with the direction of the actors and the performers. That's my opinion. I don't know how you felt about this, especially as a performer. I do.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

I I felt like this this is a hard movie, just also for those of you who haven't seen it. It's essentially like kind of like a one-woman show. The main character, Evie, is kind of the central figure. You're seeing things through her eyes, and you're also just like with her in it throughout the whole thing. We don't see, she has a co-star, a co-podcaster who's based in London, so we hear him, but we never see him. Adam DeMarco. Adam DeMarco's character, and then we have her actual mom who's existing in the space with her, but she is essentially like on hospice. Non-verbal, yeah. Yeah, like on her deathbed. Like, we see a scene where there is a nurse, like a hospice nurse that comes and it's just like, you know, her levels are getting worse. So, like, it's it's gonna be like days before she's gone. And it's and you know, they're talking about like the death rattle and things like this. So, like, there's a lot of setup around her, especially like this demon that we're learning about through the film that also kind of like exists around her. She's really this main actor is really not acting with anyone else, honestly. And that I think that's hard, like as an actor to carry, it's that is a it's a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

One thousand percent, and that it was a tough challenge, and that's why I'm I insist on talking about direction of performance in life. You have good performers, you have good uh bad performers. Okay, it's harsh, but that's the truth. But also, you know, as an actor, it's also about do you have other actors to feed you and to bounce off of and the energy, and also you are entirely vulnerable to the person giving you direction. Yeah, you know, I am not saying he let her down, that's all I'm saying. I'm just saying that if we're gonna talk about the first work of a filmmaker and seeing what's promising and what I think could evolve and he could learn from is directing actors. Yes, yeah, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Yeah, I think that that it's definitely a growth point. I do think that the thing, his the way that he I would say like the camera movements and the the way he was able to build so much tension, I would say, in one location is like really amazing and should be applauded in this film. I feel like directors know the m medium of filmmaking as far as like the camera and the shots and stuff, but I don't think many directors are actually great at directing actors to be real. From personal experience, like I don't think that's something, I don't think that's something that directors really focus on in working with actors. Like I've been on many a set as a producer, and I'm just like, well, why don't you, you know, encourage her to see it in this way? Because as a director, your job is to bring out the creativity of the person that you're working with, whether that be your DP or that be your actor, you know, you're trying to get them to work at the highest level of their creativity, and that takes a different language and a different skill set that I don't think directors are really taught and/or are interested usually.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

I think, you know, from my ex my experience in like the film department, I NYU is that you do get those classes, you know, like directing the actor and all of that, and like there's a lot of time and focus on it, you know, on how to run like castings and what to consider, and you even have performers that come in and like tell you, as the young filmmakers, what to consider, and you know, like from my experience, I saw that you have a lot of people that know how to make a beautiful film visually, but not a lot of people that know how to write a great tight story, yeah, and also like be good collaborators in that way, yeah, with their actors. What I mean by that is like also you can be the greatest director with your actors. The script is shit, the script is shit. There's only so many things you can do. And here, the strength of the movie for me was not the dialogue. It was not the dialogue. There were times where it took me out because I I saw the fiction of it. I saw the fiction, but there were a lot of strengths in this movie, and again, it was like quite a big, big thing to carry. And I think overall, like he did extremely well. And just talking about why I think that he did well, and I can exp forgive, you know, sometimes dialogue that I was like, okay, whatever, is that I was genuinely scared, and the villain, you know, like horror figure was strong. Like she scared the shit uh out of me. For context, the villain of this move of this movie is like called Abizoo, and it's a female demon of miscarriages and envy with like a long religious and folkloric history back to like the Mesopotamian like religion. That is really, really, really scary to me. Especially whenever you know, whenever you involve children somehow, that's fucking scary. That's just creepy.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

I think that's to me is like it it's kind of like in a in line. Uh this movie kind of hearkened back to hereditary a little bit to me. Movies like I remember seeing hereditary in the theaters for the first time and being like, I was just like, I need to go to church, but also I feel like I come from a culture where like that type of like spirit and demons and ghosts and that type of things exist in a very real place for me. So anytime I see a movie kind of like playing with that, I'm like, no, no, thanks, no. I don't stop playing it back. Actually, don't put it in reverse. Like, girl, what are you doing? Like, so I think that that this is also why I feel like it's getting critiques on that because it's like, oh, it's just like the same old horror trope of a demon, you know, and yet it works, and yet it makes fun you go, you know. Like, but it makes sense. I think like there are so many historical, religious, like old demon things that you know probably aren't actually like really people don't dive into it as much because there is like very much a a way of not summoning those things if you're superstitious in that way, like I am. But I do think that breeds a fear because it's like of another world, like it's otherworldly, and in that there's like this fear of something that is so unknown and also powerful.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

But it's also like you know, the idea of like film and art as a vessel. Yes. So, like if you do believe in like conjuring certain entities and things like this, like wait, are you doing it on a large scale? Like, but uh I understand that. I just I don't like when people criticize, oh like it's an old trope, nah nah. Listen, you have original work, of course you do, and thank God for that. But at the end of the day, nothing is original anymore, it's just not. I dare you to find me something that's truly original for anyone who knows a little bit, you know, like the movies that came before, the filmmakers that came before, you can point out what the inspiration was and all of that. What really matters in the work is did the person that created this put their own point of view on this? That's what I want to know. I don't like when people like uh you know what I mean, especially for a horror movie. I mean, like there's only so many things that can be that can be scary here, but no, that creeped me out, and you know what was funny is that so basically the entire time you have those two podcasters, you have Evie that you see on screen, and then you have the character of Justin, which is her co-host podcast person that is supposed to be in London. And I was thinking if this was us, I think you'd be more Justin, you'd be like, This is not, we're not doing like hell no.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Justin all the way. I'm like, why? Also, for context, that they get this random email of these voice memos, and there's 10 of the voice memos, and so you're seeing them, they're recording this one episode over the course of like a couple of days. You're not only are you seeing the story build with this Evie character and like the her drama in her life with her partner and her mother dying, but then you're also seeing like them going back into this particular story of this like couple who the wife is talking in her sleep, right? Um, and also mind you that they film this podcast at between like 2 30 and 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

I was about to say, why the fuck would you do that? The witchy hour. No, the witchy hour. Yeah, she's just podcasting with her crayons, drawing like weird stuff for days.

SPEAKER_04 18:53

No, yeah, no, so and and that's I feel like the critique of like the tropes, like, oh, the two they're recording this in the witchy hour, like, but I'm also in the frame of mind well, I'm I'm also of the belief that a movie should have a surprising yet inevitable end. And like, of course, you know, you're setting up a movie to follow a particular ending that you have coming, and I think he did build that end well. You know, the end really paid off.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yeah, I think it was a mix because the thing is, it was truly original in the way that like it's the first movie about a haunted podcast, and God knows we've had crazy horror tropes in the past few years. You've had what is it, escape games, okay? Like in terms of like modern things. Did you see the horror movie They Them?

SPEAKER_04 19:39

No, I don't think I want to watch that.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Don't worry, I think they made a two. Let's not even talk about it. Then you know, they made a few horror movies like that where it's like, okay, very well. But in this case, it's like it's modern in that way of like it's the first one with like a podcast, but technically it's the ring, the movie The Ring, you know, like the haunted tape that when you play it, it's kind of like a play, technically. Yes, it is, and the ending followed uh it follows the ending of Sinister, yeah. It will make no sense if you haven't seen the movie. If you have, then you know, yeah, and I wake.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

But yeah, but but and and then you know, in that it also had just like some of the classic horror film or even just like general fears, like the doll that appears in the recordings. The doll kid, what there's a doll that she hears in the recording. Oh yeah, or they like you know, you pull the string out of out of its back and it starts to create talk and it talks in like this very creepy voice. Like, you know, all of the elements I think of people are just like in general scared of, but you're not seeing it, you're hearing it, which I found really interesting as far as a way to like still have these common fears that have been, you know, tried and true, tested in horror films, but them being presented in a completely new way.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

You know what's funny for me in terms of those fears is that yeah, you have the tropes like the doll, the basement, the night, the strange neighbor. Yeah, but for me, what really really scares me, and the thing with horror is like you know, kind of like the everyday example, you're visiting your grandparents, and the house is like you're like, ah, that reminds me of that movie, yeah. The thing for me about that movie was like, I don't know about you, but if I wear like some noise-cancelling headphones, plus I'm half deaf, yeah, I'm always terrified that something's gonna creep up on me and like I'm not gonna hear it, and like that is terrifying to me. And whenever they were doing those like close up shots, you know, like her headphones and just the sound, and then they would like cut with those like silence in the living room when she's not listening. I was like, fuck that off it. I don't want that.

SPEAKER_04 21:53

That was good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

And actually, imagine for whoever is listening to this podcast in the witchy hour, just Like that, you don't know what's surrounding you, and I don't know. Maritza doesn't know, so look around. This is now a horror podcast. Honestly, fuck yes.

SPEAKER_04 22:11

But yeah, I think another thing that I loved about this film is that the characters are playing characters. Evie and um her co-host of the podcast kind of play up that, you know, Evie's the skeptic and her co-host is the um believer, naive. Yeah, the believer. Like Kiara was like, I would be the believer. But they they kind of like put um they kind of like put on these roles. Like there's a lot of scenes in the film where she was just like, okay, let's get back into character.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Um also just to be clear, like to me when I watch this movie, Evie's the dumb one. Oh, not Justin. So it's a compliment I'm making, just to be clear. Yes, yes, yes. She should have listened to Justin.

SPEAKER_04 22:54

Right. I'm I'm of the belief that she I don't want to fuck around and find out.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah, also Justin is like talking to Evie's like, have you been drinking?

SPEAKER_04 23:01

Yeah, oh I mean, there were some things in there I was just like, okay, okay, like really trying to build out this character through through things and not through actions, I guess. Yeah, but that's that's a dialogue. That's what I it's yeah, it is, but again, I think again that's so hard for you to build something out through action when it's just one person. Like, we have to discover these things about this person through interacting with other people. That's why I kind of feel like the platform is there.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

I think that like seeing someone in their childhood home at a very particular time in their life. Yeah, there's so many things in terms of the habits, in terms of like snapping at there's so many things that you can do to establish someone's mental health uh health and like contrast, yeah, you know. So yes, I it's definitely more difficult, yeah. It's definitely harder, yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 23:57

I think it's hard because this this movie runs like an hour and like 30 minutes or 40 minutes. Like it was, I would say also for what it gave us, it was like the perfect length of what this film needed to do.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

A thousand percent. Yeah, oh yeah, but yeah, the character thing, you know, it's funny because this is like what our fourth episode, right? Yeah, and when I saw this, we had done like two maybe, yeah. And when I saw this, I was like, wait, fuck, am I supposed to do a character? Is it because I I cannot do that already, like speaking into the mic is a lot, uh, but it was so funny like seeing that because definitely it did work, and I did not like Evie's character's character. Does that make sense? I was like, oh, you annoy me. You should be haunted.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

You kind of see her skepticism like lose its foundation a bit because she's just like, Well, yeah, it was an artifact in the recording. And I'm like, girl, that thing said lick the blood off your fingertips. I don't know if that's an artifact. You know, it's just like the the the disbelief. I don't think it I don't know necessarily it landed. I would say one thing in this film too is we me and Kiara have spoken about this a lot of like psychological horrors really not being as successful as they once were. But a part of me feels like there wasn't something in this film that I left the theater.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Like I I got the I I would say the instant gratification of being scared, but I don't necessarily think that I've I've left with something, you know, like if I were to watch like The Babaduke or The Plague or The Substance, you know, like those films that yeah, but here's my thing though, like in in the three, is that the substance at Babaduke, there's something visceral and scary about it, yeah, you know, yeah, it's like really it's not a movie that's shy. It's like whether you like it or not, I'm in your face, and here you go. Yeah, the plague, tell me a moment in the plague, or really you were scared. I was visceral.

SPEAKER_04 25:55

I wasn't scared more so I was worried about because the plague, uh, for those of you that don't know, is like a film about essentially children bullying each other at this like sleepaway swim camp. And the this group of like in kids, these like bully kids, say that this one kid has the plague because he has kind of like this rash, and so if you touch him, then you get the plague. And it's like he has a rash and it it changes the way that his mental state works, and so it you know, this kid was obviously different and was called out for being different. And in this film, I don't necessarily think there was a moment that I was scared, there was a moment where I was many a moment where I was uncomfortable, many a moment that I was worried for the safety of these children. Yeah, and I think that's it's kind of that's scary in a a different way, but it's not like I'm putting my hand over my eyes, scary.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

But that's my thing, it's like I I enjoyed the plague in some ways, right? I just think that like calling it a horror that was criminal and kind of doomed the movie because the movie, just to give you some context, this is like a movie that came out late 2025. It was directed by Charlie Pollinger. Pollinger, I'm not sure. I'm sorry, I'm French. Um it was his debut, and this is a filmmaker that you know has built himself a career as a screenwriter with movies that have done really well. You you should check him out, and that was his debut, which is beautiful and definitely have a lot of interesting themes. I mean, it's um it's about how visceral it is, you know, like the adolescence of teenage boys and growing up. And the reason, like, for example, in the first 20 minutes of the movie, you get a pimple, you get the sex thing, and then you you know, you you get the idea of the metaphor pretty fucking quickly. I guess it's my thing. But you take a movie like The Substance, which is a horror, it is a body horror, and it's about you know the violence of aging as a woman and how your body is looked at, and all of this, which again, the plague is that in some form, yeah, with young men. The plague was shy in a way that the substance wasn't. The substance she went in your face. She created her, she created her character like a monster with like five boobs, and it's all coming out of everywhere, and it's so violent because it's supposed to represent the violence that's going inside of women and the violence that is imposed onto us, you know, with our bodies and our relationship with our body. And the plague I thought at some point would go there, and then when it could go a little further, it wouldn't. I I felt restrained.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

But I think that there is a particular restraint that you have to have with children, like especially with film and children. Because I'm thinking even of that, this is not a horror film at all, but it's more of a coming-of-age film of that film with the little girls who are dancers, cuties, and it was trenches, uh, I forgot. But yeah, it it received such controversy and outrage for depicting young girls in that way. But it's just like at that age, I was also doing those things that those little girls were doing. But and I think that there's like this this way that media and I think film has to position children that you can't go the way that the substance went, you know, because the substance is dealing with you know this older woman, like you know. I don't think that uh the players. But you can I don't think the play could do that.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

I think I think what we need to in the film industry, in any industry, and of it just in general, we have to protect children, yes, we're adults in an industry, there's money involved, and you know, especially the film industry has been letting down like the the children that are actors, yeah. Like they're treated like shit, anyways. That we must, and there's always ways to do it, especially it's make-believe, you can do whatever you want. You just need to take the right precautions, and you can also treat things by making it look like the children were there but they weren't, right? You can do so many things, you cannot give them full access to the script, and you know, there's a lot of things you can do, but who cares if it if it creates outrage or controversy, it's art. Thank God it does, because that's the point. If you got outraged by cuties, okay, then let's talk about the reality of what cuties talk about. Because that let's let's let's be outraged by that, let's have that conversation. Yeah, that's my point, is that when we reject something like that, unless it's based on something that happened on the set, that you know, that's very different. Yes, that's different. But I think But the subject matter, it's like don't don't watch if it if it's too much for you or grow up.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

But I think that positioning a particular story to be bought and distributed is also important into how that content gets developed, I guess. I agree with you that I I thought Cutie's was a an amazing film that was needed and the controversy that it sparked, I don't think matched what the director was trying to hammer home for the viewer to take from that film. And I think that the plague, you know, I think anytime you're dealing with a uh subject matter of children, like there is like this now data point of cuties that does come about, you know, and I think that hinders people from making stories that do take, like especially with children being the center of it, that narrative further. Because will it get bought or not? Will it get be able to be get made or not?

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Yes, it will. At the end of the day, the play, you do the pitch, you're the you're making a lord of the flies. Basically, that's that's what that movie is, yeah. Yeah, and if you're doing that, and if you're taking something as violent as adolescents, yeah, please come on. Yeah, then you go all the way. Then you go all the way. And I and there were many ways for that to to to to happen, and you know, it's like what we talked about with undertone. Certain things are more difficult, and you know, of course, you do, especially for a first feature, a movie where most of your casts are children. Okay, you take a challenge, you know, and I respect that. Okay, that takes home. I respect that, but you can't go around it, you have to figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

And I agree, I agree with you. And I would just also would like to preface this conversation around the plague. Like that film is really I enjoyed it a lot. I I enjoyed that film, and I thought the act the children actors in it were incredible. Shout out to the casting team on that film.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

But see, that's my thing. Uh, Charlie, uh, I'm gonna call you Charlie just because I don't want to butcher the last name, did wonderful at directing these actors. There were there were very strong film things about this movie, but that's what I'm talking about, right? This movie was distributed as a horror in between December and January. The only reason I know it exists is because the algorithm targeted me for the social media campaign for like two weeks, and I made a note of it because I think it's too bad because it it's a movie, you know, not a lot of financial risks were taken. It's like a one million dollar budget, and I think it paid like 600,000 or something like that. So it did not make its money back, but it was it was not marketed the way it should have.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

Yeah, it was crimp. I think and why Undertone has done so well at the box office because it was marked the marketing for that film was amazing. I heard about it in maybe January, end of December, and it was like this creepy, you know the scariest movie you've ever seen. You ever see. Like, I do think that the marketing team did really great on getting that movie out. Like, you know, it definitely found me in my algorithm. But the plague didn't find me in my algorithm, which I did find interesting.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

You know, part of my comparison with the substance, what I meant by visceral, uh, there's a lot of things that are different, but one of the things we can compare is that the two movies talk about the transformation of the body. Yeah. In uh the plague, you have this rash, and you know, you have pimples and things like that, and the substance, you have the flesh that's literally rotting and things like that, right? In the substance, those extreme close-up that she does, yeah, of the skin and of texture and of her touching. I wanted more of that with the plague. I wanted more scratching, I wanted more uh extreme close-up, I wanted more or how do you call what's in like a white pimple? A pus. Yeah, I wanted more of that. Make it gross because you know what? Male adolescents, adolescents in general, but especially male, sorry, is disgusting. It's gross. Make me feel that, and you can do it in ways that turn up putting children in danger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree.

SPEAKER_04 34:36

But I would say, like, you know, even to see the way that Undertone was marketed, the budget that it had, and how well it did, versus like the plague that was, you know, put into position of a horror film, marketed in a particular way. But I think that there's so many things that worked against that movie when the movie is actually really great. I think it's worth the watch.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

And I think both movies are worth the watch. Um just just to be clear, and for the quick little note, I hope it will change. But right now, the play, the only way to see it is like pay-per-view.

SPEAKER_04 35:08

Yeah, it's um T Vod, like Apple, I believe, has it.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

I did like the Amazon thing, and Amazon, I believe.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

It's six dollars, yeah. Which is not it's also not outrageous price for that film, I would say. But I don't know, I'm just saying six dollars. Yeah, yeah. But I'm I'm also just saying that that film, you know, going to see Undertone, especially because that movie is so audio-based, seeing that in a movie theater to me is like so essential, unless you're gonna like watch it at home with noise-cancelling headphones. I think that would be a particular sick in the dark. Yes, I think that's a particular at-home viewing experience for that, but to see it in a dark theater, it really sets that film up for success and the scare factor. And I think for the plague, I saw that at home. Like, I have a projector at home, so I still get like this big screen effect, but I think also with the that that movie is really beautifully shot, it's gorgeous, and especially the water scenes in that. I think it's the pool, yeah, it's gorgeous. It's a really it would have been a really great movie to see in the theaters as well. I know this podcast, like, we're always gonna be like, go see a movie in a theater, but no, but listen, it's a tough economy out there.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

I am not gonna tell someone to spend 20 bucks on something where I'm like, you no, yeah, you know, like unless again AMC Plus, you know, yeah, like whatever, the reagal or whatever. Oh, yeah, no, not their streaming thing because they fuck the walking dead.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

We don't talk about that, but but the the whatever atheist thing, love that and it's a great, I think it's a great film to see in theaters, and even as we're talking to about quarter one right now, we're gonna get very in the industry base of horror right now. Horror is really growing as a respectable genre because it's very much bringing people back into the theaters. Now, this year and this quarter, the the US box half office has finally had a good quarter since the pandemic. Um, now this year in the first quarter, the US box office has generated$1.77 billion and represents a significant recovery with revenues increasing roughly to 25% compared to 2025. But we're still a very long way from being pre-pandemic. This is still very low compared to 2019 as far as revenue. Yeah. But you know, the trend upwards of we talked about Gen Z going to the movie theaters, and now we're talking about, you know, like I think even the industry is very much betting on horror to get people, and like very much including it in their slates, yes, to get people to go to the theaters.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

You know, that's not new. Like, for example, in Europe, we know that we we we've discussed that at some point that part of the reason why, you know, for example, US crews are going to Europe to make movies, like the plague. Okay, literally the plague, is because it's cheaper because of the tax incentives. The reason why that happens is because European governments, especially like let's say France, it's built into the taxes. Like the government will always protect making movies, right? And what's interesting is that Telecinco, I think, yeah, which is like the equivalent of like the one big news channel in Spain, the way they protect the things they make for TV and the regional, more independent things is by making a sleigh every year of horror, which brings a lot of money, which protects them. Yeah. Right? And I'm just saying, I think that like horror has been doing that for a long time now for theaters and even for like first-time directors. A lot of the first-time directors, you get the opportunities with horror because there's more room to grow, to make mistakes, you know.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

There's there's more risk taking in horrors because the budgets are so low.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

The budgets are lower, and also what let's be real. If you are making a movie that's scary, the audience will forgive you on other things. It will, because that's the one thing that you're telling them. Yeah, however, you make your movie beautiful, great performance is not scary, no one gives a fuck because you broke the the one thing you have to keep that, right? Yeah, you have to keep it. And you know, talking about like Q1, if we talk about 2025, horror was 12% of the worldwide box office in 2025. Yeah, which is huge, and we see that with movies like Weapons that they great, the last sinners. The sinners, I have a tough time doing that because I think this movie, one of its strengths, the movie uh uh movies that are in between genres, like The Plague, for example, usually they don't do well. And Sinners broke that. Yeah, which is why you know sometimes I'm like, and uh one of the last movies that did that, by the way, was The Silence of the Lamb. Yeah because it's in between genre, right?

SPEAKER_04 40:01

It came out around the same time, and usually and I think it's uh I just saw because I went to the movies, it's the either the 25th or 35th anniversary of the silence of the lamb. I'm going. Yes, I've got them going. You can go see that in theaters again for a short little time in in April, this April.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Um bring like a nice little bottle of like candy and fava beans to the theater. But uh just so you know, you had that, you had Final Destination, with which did really the conjuring glass rights. The conjuring glass rights, uh have a half a billion, huh? Yeah in box office. And what's interesting with Final Destination for me is that so it's a franchise that has been around for a long time, but the last few they sucked, and you know why? Because there was a disconnect again, like it's always that, right? There was a disconnect between the people making the movie and what the fandom of the this franchise like really wants, you know. And I think that you have a newer generation that is behind that movie that was they were probably fans, you know, when the first one came out, and you can feel it, like they delivered me exactly what I wanted out of a Final Destination. Dare I say it's the best one.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

No, like the the last one, the I think all of especially the callbacks to the previous Final Destiny, that's what I think made it like it brought the cult back out, you know. And I think with horror movies specifically, there's always such this inherent cult following with them. Like, even if we're talking about the new ones coming up, like backrooms, like that being on YouTube and having such a cult following, and it just released its trailer this week. It looks awesome. I can't wait. Um, it has the cast, I'm so stoked for. Uh, you have Renata Reinsfa, which I'm like, I can't wait to see you as a Screen Queen girl. Like, it's such an exciting role, I think, to see her in. I know. Um, and then you have Chiwa Tele, Igio 4, being the lead of Backrooms. He's a stellar actor. He was in 12 Years a Slave. He's also gonna be in the new Children of Blood and Bone, which we'll talk about at another later date. But I think it has from the cast already, like very two very heavy hitter actors, which I find really interesting because this director is the first like Gen Z director. Yeah, he's like 20, you know, these are very seasoned actors. Um, the trailer looks amazing, so I'm just really excited to see I can't I can't wait. Yeah, how this collaboration really took took shape with them.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Um, but you see, that's that's my point though. We've we'll we'll see, right? Because backrooms not out yet. I'm sure it will do very well, but I mean we'll see. But what's interesting, right, when you see like Iron Lung, even Undertone, yeah, Final Destination, and backrooms is that and terrifier, okay? Terrifier, which did so fucking well, it has the quality of a porn, okay? Let's be real. But it built this like comic-con following around the terrifier, and the thing about the horror audience, they are loyal, like no other audience. Although if you respect them, because that's a thing, don't disrespect a horror audience because they will see right through you, they will see right through you, they'll be like, fuck you. You have to be scary, you have to be scary, and you can't like half-ass it, you can't, especially now because like horror audiences they're smart. Yeah, they're smart, so you you can't just like you can't put the wool over our eyes, yeah. And also, you know, I feel like because the industry is like kind of in the toilet and horror is like the best ROI, watch happens in every industry. You're gonna have a lot of people that are gonna put a lot of money in a lot of horror movies, and a lot of them are gonna fail. Why? Because there'll be a disconnect into why they work so well. Yeah, and one of the reasons they work so well is one, you keep them cheap. Okay, you keep them cheap. Two, if they have a campy quality to it, you do not erase them. Okay, Plumhouse with Megan. Megan one worked very well. Why? Because the doll was some like gay, campy icon. They did what? The second one? They injected more money, they turned into some weird sci-fi thing, and they changed how the doll looks.

SPEAKER_04 44:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

What happened? It flopped.

SPEAKER_04 44:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

It flopped big time. Just don't disrespect your audience.

SPEAKER_04 44:24

And I think I don't know, even with the critic critiques again, going back to undertone of it, not reinventing the wheel. I don't think horror requires you to reinvent the wheel. These are like common genres and themes that still permeate our everyday life as far as our fears. You don't have to reinvent that wheel. That wheel is right there. It's gonna be there until the end of humanity. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

It's gonna be scary. And the thing, often, the original uh what is original about horror, truly, because the tropes are all the same, you know, is that fear, you know, especially with a movie, is something that is also very particular to a society and to the time we live in. You take the exact same movie with the same monster that are shot, let's say 80 years apart, it will not speak to the same anxiety because we don't have the same anxiety as a society. If you think about, you know, an audience that is living at the time of like the Cold War and is constantly afraid that a bomb is gonna drop on their head, you know, and that's it. You do not have the same anxieties at that point, then let's say an early 2000 audience member, it's not the same, you know. And even with women now, I mean, look at undertone, look at the substance, undertone in a way, it's made by a man, but it's speaking about the fear of being a mother in so many ways, and the substance aging, you know.

SPEAKER_04 45:50

The mother um horror films are really I think the motherhood take in films recently has been great. I've I've I can honestly just really love to see everybody's perspectives on it, and I think the horror films around them have also been really great. Like every single film that at least that was Oscar nominated last year, or even did really well at the box box office, had some element of motherhood in it in a really interesting way, or parenthood even in a really interesting way. I would say going back to a note you said about the campiness of a horror film, I think about why those films really work. I I don't think that it had it intentionally in undertone, but there's something funny about it, you know, like there's something inherently campy about fear, and and I think leaning into like you know, if you're thinking of like get out or um even weapons, like those films are like I think intentionally have these very funny moments. Weapons is funny as fuck. It's so funny, but it's like genuinely scary.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

I was like, oh my god, like you know, you know, when you think about like Korean cinema, let's take memories of murder as an example. Like they do that very well, like they take the most dramatic, horrifying themes, but it's also extremely funny because at least for me, I mean that's life. Yeah, that's life. Yeah, anything that breaks your heart also has the capacity of making you laugh until like you can't feel your face anymore, you know, and and that's the truth, is that life is ironic and life is like bullshit. I mean, if we're talking about memories of murder, right? We just talked about the fact that horror movies, you're in the dark, there's not a lot of light, and literally the opening of memories of murder is you know, this like yellow color in a field with children that are playing. It's like a serene picture, but at the same time, in the middle of that, there's like a body and like uh how do you call that? A little a trench yeah, a trench sewer thing, and it's like the contrast of the two is just weird, right? But I guess my point is like usually when humanity confronts things that we have a tough time understanding because it's absurd, art follows, like the Dada movement, the Dada movement was born out of that, you know, about like how ridiculous things seems, and and I think we are in a ridiculous era, yeah. We are really in a thing where nothing makes sense, of that things are almost too big to be true, yeah. You know, it's like it makes no sense, and at the same time, we see we keep pushing the boundaries on what shocks us, and nothing is done out of it ever. So we keep pushing the boundaries of what is supposed to be normal, yeah, and that is fucking with us, yeah. And I think that's reflected in our horror today. Yeah, it's weird, it makes no sense. It's almost you know, like in possession with Isabella Gianni when she's like fucking that weird monster, and then she's just laying, you have this big blob on the bed, and she's like, Oh, I'm exhausted. He made love to me all night. It's like okay, you know, like and um so I think that's what's interesting, especially now that those movies are gonna be made by you know younger and younger generations. Like, let's see, and also what's interesting, it brings audiences, it always has to the cinema, but right now it's bringing especially Gen Z to the cinema. Yeah, we wanna be afraid together, we wanna be in a room afraid together, and that is just very, very interesting. And horror has always been to me a mirror on like you know, our our anxiety and fear of humanity at a particular time. And and again, I dare you to find anything more universal than that.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

Yeah, the genre will continue to succeed if that's this is one maybe the only time I'll say this is we kind of just don't fuck with the formula. Like, I don't think there needs to be a lot of reinvention because this is a genre that allows for, like you're saying, that boundary pushing and that risk taking. It's one point of view, yeah. It's the exploration, you know. Like, because again, the fears are there and the histories from where those fears took place are there. You can't change that history, it's very much having a point of view on it. So 100%. I think, yeah, Undertone was successful in that way, and films like The Substance and the Plague and all of that could be successful in that way as well. And I love how horror translates so globally because there is this sense of like, you know, we all inhibit we all have these fears, and we go to this experience so we don't feel them alone. So that's that's horror in Hollywood, and you know, expect to see more horror films. I I would say even potentially next year in 2027.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

Well, what's coming out right now? The next update from the screening list will be on how the backrooms is doing, and uh the new neon horror movie, Hokum, that's coming out later in April with Adam Scott. We'll see how that does.

SPEAKER_04 50:50

Yeah. So that was Undertone. We're gonna take a quick little break and come back to you with this week's temperature check. We are talking all things capital and how to access that in Hollywood right now. Bab robot and the resurgence or innovation that is happening in vertical video. Okay, so this week's temperature check. Let's talk about how to access stranded capital. There was this article that came out in IndieWire this week from a seasoned producer essentially saying that capital isn't not there. When I say capital, obviously I'm saying money. Like the money is there, it's just locked away.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

It's there, it's just locked away. Now, here's a map and the 27-step thing on how to access it.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

And how to find it. The article really surmised, I feel like this conversation that we've been having around how to get a movie making and who's really investing in indie filmmaking and what you need to have to like get your film out. And he even in the article says, you know, the hardest part actually is not getting the money, it's about getting people to go see your movie, which is true in a lot of ways, but it's also like the money and the capital to market your movie so people can come see your movie. I would say that we were talking about this in our last episode of this lack of transparency on how to build a pitch or how to build a film to address the demand of the market and of the investors and of the audience. Like, how can I build out my pitch for my film and how it's important and how it's essential? Not because yes, I've been working on this film for however many years and I'm passionate about it and I want to tell this story, but the why is this story is needed for you as an investor, and how can I make sure that you make your money back because it's also important to my audience and my you know, this return of investment.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

You know what's funny is that for me, my thing is like if people say, Oh yeah, no, this movie's gonna work at the box office. You're a liar, you don't know that. Yeah, you don't know that you can't, as a filmmaker, you can't look at an investor and say 100% I'm gonna make you money. That's a fucking lie. The truth is you can say, Listen, I can guarantee you, which is also a lie, but that will break even. That's the one thing you can do, but otherwise, like you know, that that depends on a lot of things. First of all, is the movie good? That's kind of like the basic minimum because you could lose a lot of money, and then five years later, it starts making a lot of money. Okay, sometimes it just depends on when the movie is released, what the taste of the day is, who you're competing with, and that's the thing, right? Filmmaking is the equivalent of going to the casino, taking four years to make a bet, and in two hours, you know if you just lost like Ali, let's say 20 million dollars. Yeah, so and which is also why people invest in a slate, because when you invest in five movies, as long as one of them works, you're fine. It's also why they say, as a production company, in order to be like, you know, kind of comfortable, you need to make five movies a year. The reality is that all of it is bullshit and that the industry changes all the time, and you have to adapt all the time and your speech as well. If you keep, you know, like the pulse on the industry, what works, what doesn't work. Usually, whenever you make a plan on like how to make a movie and how you think it's gonna work out, the person in front of you telling you I believe you or not, usually they know just as much as you do, is my point.

SPEAKER_04 54:29

Yeah, you know, and I do think the article points out something that I think is true, and what I have been saying in our recent conversations of what is the market already demanding that I'm uniquely positioned to deliver. So, Darren Smith in this indie article entitled To Access Stranded Capital, filmmakers need to learn demand side thinking. You can't just go to investors and be like, I really want to make this film because it's my passion project and I love it, and this is a story that's important. It's the why the story is important. How am I positioning this story at this current moment? Because what you're saying is right, you can't be like, You're gonna make your money back, but you can be like, here is the market, and here is how I am positioning myself in this market, and here's why I think it's gonna work. Yeah, it's not more so of like this is the return of your investment.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

I guess my thing also is that there is a profound disconnect again between filmmakers right now and producers and distributors. Yeah, the proof, like we talked about it, is that most movies that do survive, that do make it out, that do make money at the box office, are from people that do it in a vertical way. You know, that again, like they they write, they produce, they direct, they I mean, look at the successes we talked about Undertone, Nirvana, the band, the show, all of that who's behind it. Yeah, but sinners. Sinners again, you would have had a classic distributor take it from Ryan Coogler very early on. Yeah, who knows, right? Who knows? I'm just speculating. But my point is there's this profound disconnect and there's fear. There's fear. Can work on a movie for two years, one meeting with the marketing distribution department that goes wrong, they get scared and they change the strategy, and that's it, you're gone.

SPEAKER_04 56:14

Right now, our industry isn't set up for risk taking because we're moving at such a for lack of a better term, an unprecedented time of like this continuous reshaping of the distribution model and this continuous, like these mergers across different distribution avenues, like the avenues of getting your film made and getting it put up are only getting smaller and smaller, right? And so, you know, I think every huge distributor or production company is looking for a sure 100% hit. And you know, I don't know if that's the best way to go about that, obviously. But I I also want to kind of bring it a little bit back to this article. He says that capital isn't scarce, it's stranded. 20 years ago, there was 4.8 trillion in alternative assets. Today there's$22 trillion in this industry, and none of it is going to independent films. And I think there to me is the rub. We at a later date we should talk about like what is indie film because some of the things that were like being like this is indie film, like, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

But well, some things used to be and now are not considered anymore, but you know, like it's so yeah, you're right. What is indie film and what does that mean?

SPEAKER_04 57:27

Yeah, and like what is that money funneling towards? Because when I'm thinking of first-time filmmakers, like the director of backrooms, you know, that to me is an indie film.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

I mean 500,000 fits an indie film film, what the fuck is an indie film?

SPEAKER_04 57:40

Undertone is an indie film to me, you know, and there is money being put into those things, but then there's others like Maud Apotow's first feature. I think it's like a a poetic license, you know, that's being considered as an indie film, and I'm like, is it?

SPEAKER_01 57:56

But technically, yeah. I see what you're saying because it's indie plus plus, yeah, right? But at the same time, her father, John Apatow, is an independent producer. Yeah, she is, period, right? Now, often the the the funny thing, right? You're indie until you're not, right? Meaning, for example, Sean Baker is the head of all indie filmmakers with the way he does it, but at the same time, yeah, right? You're talking about like someone who won many, or he can do whatever he wants. Yeah, tomorrow he wants to build like uh the new Sundance Festival and anything he could, but that's my point. Tomorrow, if he wanted to go studio, he could. Yeah, whereas a lot of independent filmmaking, you do it, let's be real, because you don't have a choice, yeah, not because it's noble, but I you know, for example, I'm I'm packaging like this this movie I'm I'm making now, and I'm doing it between like Europe and America, and a lot of producers that are in more, you know, like like studio like settings. I talk about them, they're like, How are you managing to do it the way you are? Because we can only do ABC if we do something else, let's say, right? And I say, Oh, because I'm independent, I have no choice but to do it this way, which is why I can. Whereas you're not, yeah, you know, and that has advantages and disadvantages. But my point is like, really, uh, that's how you can tell when someone is independent, you know. Yeah, that's true. Also, it's so independent that look, it's all too roquate, and now it's kind of fucked. Yeah, that's true, that's true. My bad, Matt. My bad. No, no, but you know, she got a little plus in life, which is great and uh good for you, girl, honestly. And that's why we question it because you are not as a first-time filmmaker, independent filmmaker, you are not the same basket as most people. Yeah, okay, and that's a that's a fucking blessing. Okay, be grateful, and that's fine. Yeah, but uh, but yeah, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04 59:54

But yeah, I think it's like this question, and you know, we can even hearken this back to Roke that we talked about last week of like there isn't like safe models of investment and distribution when it comes to indie filmmaking because there's no structure around it. Like, there's simply just we he says that we haven't built a way for it to flow our way, for money to just kind of like flow into indie filmmaking, and it's just like, well, I that's kind of the rub of indie filmmaking, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Indie filmmaking is literally a Robin Hood, okay? You hold, you steal, and you try to give it back to the people uh through the movie, but that's what it is. Independent filmmaking is violent, okay. No one is consensual in the thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:36

You just you just do everyone is flying by the seat of their pants. Um girl, what pants? Like the pants have been gone for a while. Just like run, like breaking pad, just running in our underwear, just out in the desert.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

Losing the underwear, okay, like this desert.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:57

Um, but yeah, I just find that really interesting. I feel like the the thing to take away from this is like especially. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Yes, yes, yes, yes, but again, like kind of just reiterating, I think, the conversations that we have been having with like because it's all smoke and mirrors. Oh, 100%. It's all smoke and mirrors. So you're as the producer or as the director, as the filmmaker, are trying to assuage concerns, you know, but you can't you can't 100% be like, yeah, this is gonna work or not. You because you can't do that. So, what do you need to do to then bring people towards this film? And uh, he talks about this in the article as like, Oh, is this investor interested in walking the red carpet with their family and friends and meeting this this known actor or actress, you know, like there's that's a trick as old as the book, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

Is there some like rich random person that's obsessed with some actor and actress, and you could just guarantee that they could spend like a lunch with them? Yeah, apart from certain things, investing in film is literally never a good idea financially, like go buy a building or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:04

I don't think you should be saying that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

It's true, but that's the thing, it's true, it's true. That's not why people do it. Yeah, no, that's not why people do it. First of all, when it works, when it does work, what you tap into, no other investment will bring you that. Yeah, it's it's prestige, you're immortal. You per you you were part of something so much bigger, of something that will make people in 200 years cry and laugh and and and question themselves. You tap into, you know, like trying to explain a little bit the human experience just a little bit better, you know, and make people feel less alone. I mean, fuck, like I'm sorry, that there's no price on that. That's my point. There's no price, it's art. Yeah, so now obviously you have to adapt to the fact that it's a market, right? It's a business, yeah. It's a business, and a lot of disconnects that we have with businesses that are like that, you know, like music or fashion, or is that we have a disconnect between the fact that you don't have to be either a hundred percent a purist about your art or a hundred percent a businessman. Today you have to consider a little bit of both.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:15

And that's my interest because I think that this is kind of moving us into our second topic of today, which is vertical video of kind of this now art versus commerce conversation that I feel like a lot of people have been having is that a lot of brands are starting to be built like media companies and are using social media as like this distribution platform. There's a particular company that I would like to talk about called the American Picture Company, and their tagline is original programming for the new primetime.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

I thought the American Picture Company? Yeah. That's kind of giving like and the American Picture Company is bringing you. It's kind of giving like the the old Casa Blanc. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:58

Like they are essentially programming like highly edited, produced, short form content as like serializing that and producing it like it's TV, but for social media.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:11

If anyone ever talked about my movies or anything I make as content, like we I would throw myself off a robot.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:18

And I'm trying, I'm trying not to call it content, but like in the frame that it's content. I'm just saying, you know. I've just been seeing, you know, we've been talking about this trend of even the fruit AI swap of like that being, you know, using like traditional like soap opera story structures.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

Telenovela works everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:38

Yeah, getting people to watch it and even like, have you seen mini dramas before? I came across them on TikTok maybe two-ish years ago, but there was this like this one mini drama that came on my feed called True Harris versus Fake Queen B. And it was like this rich versus the poor, like, you know, like this plot line that has played out before of like the rich girl pretending to not be who she is, and then a poor girl pretending that she's this rich girl.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

It's like Barbie. Yes, the Barbie movie. Yes, that everything changed for me after that.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:15

But yeah, but I think like even these mini dramas that they are now being produced into their own applications, so you have real short drama box and drama wave, and they're dominating entertainment charts across both Apple and Google, like Android app stores.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

Quick release, you know, it's like uh it satisfies you. Like, I mean, I have listen, the AI food shit is not a victimless crime, okay. It has happened to me, it has happened to me to be very like worried about what was gonna happen to the strawberry baby, okay. Like, and it's just like you know, it taps into this thing that's just very addictive in the way that like we

SPEAKER_04 1:06:00

TV of the early 2000s was you know and a lot of people are saying that's like it's very much replacing reality TV. I would even say like there's something very um just like normal gossipy about somebody putting their phone like even that lady who was like I don't I didn't I didn't I didn't know who I married I like did you see that whole series it was last year people were putting that on TV and watching it like it was a show she had like a bunch of episodes and she's like kind of this is a real life woman who is telling the story of this man that she married and like discovering all of these things about him that were very like red flag controversial like girl get out of there ASAFSAP you know but it came with like this mass following and everybody just started to talk about it and she got brand deals from it and she's like now positioned as this story like she is a storyteller but you know like this specific type of television that is now being put onto social media via scripted and unscripted content because that's kind of like Zola context it's like this A24 movie they bought the rights of a of a Twitter how'd you say Twitter it was a Twitter thread twitter thread yeah this is like pre-X this is like straight up original Twitter yeah Twitter thread they bought the thread and it it ended up being the movie Zola which you should watch it's like a fucking trip and uh I love that film it's it's literally the movie like follows the thread you know yeah you'll see it's cool um but anyways it's kind of like that yeah and I I don't know if you remember but like about 10 years ago there was this thing called scam there there was one French one and there was one like I think Swedish one and it was like short form content like there was one every day I think and it was like a minute long and it was like teenagers and like romance and like it it worked very very well in very high numbers. And I think like especially the American picture company they were on a panel at South by Southwest kind of like depicting where the future of media is going and essentially they're they they took I guess they copied off a scam. A scam started in 2015 in Norway 10 years ago that was 11 years ago and now I feel like you can see brands now creating serialized concepts like they have one American picture company has one called the Icked you can have independent creators wait the icked that's them that's them no yes they have the ick the figure it goes like ding yes oh fog okay so that's them they they they work with a uh a slew of different brands and then you have like brands in and of themselves creating content like this like I am I'm like absolutely shook but it's there and I think the people's interest for it is there just this week tubi and TikTok just launched an incubator where Tubi and TikTok will come together to develop a talent pool to to source a talent pool that will develop long form series that will be distributed on Tubi. The program will span many genres across scripted and unscripted and the companies say creators will lead the creative direction of the projects and receive support from Tubi. So this pipeline of content creator to now TV writer director like you know I feel like it's coming in a way it's coming very fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

Do you know why I'm laughing because I'm like RIP Quibi Quibi was literally that their only issue is that so they had raised almost two billion Quibi was two billion the investment they were making short form content exactly what we're describing basically but like pre-COVID and then they launched and then the world stopped and the whole point of Quibi was it was built for the person well our world today right the on the go person the person that has like 20 seconds to give to like their daily telenovela show it happened and then people were forced to be home for months and it just like died and like right now I'm hearing all of that and I'm really thinking like are the Quibi people okay because if that was me and I saw that girl girl I'll be like really I would pack my bags I'm like I need to go to Sweden for two weeks.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:20

Just don't fucking talk to me can you imagine oh my gosh RIP Qui RIP Quibi me wow but yeah like that is something to look continue to look out for but even again back to this like art versus commerce of like brands really starting to be built like media companies and using social media like you're getting bottega vanetta mu Prada which Yves Laurent yeah y sauron like and you know I think like the these brands are doing it at scale right now but it's only gonna get larger we had this conversation of how movies influences and create culture and now and I feel like brands trying to catch up to that but now you have brands being a part of the creation of culture and like tying commerce into that and that's a really tricky place to be like that's a it's a slippery soap.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

Yeah I mean it's always been the case remember when like literally film everyone was like smoking cigarettes and it was advertised everywhere was just like the coolest fucking thing. I mean talk about that yes but um I guess for me my my my thing with that is like there are two things we know right right now brands they want to get to Gen Z. Gen Z we know when we're being sold something yes we don't like it. Yeah we don't like it and we know it and we're less vulnerable to that than like other generations so that's one thing. Number two there used to be a time where what mattered was the persona and what you did and no one really cared who you were behind that beyond you know what the studio was selling the imagery. Yeah now people like we see with Iron Lug yeah people support the person yeah okay they support the person they support an idea and that's what I mean by like respect your audience because if you do they'll respect you right back. Yeah they will come they will show up yeah you know because people crave people I mean Gen Z they we crave a community we've been deprived of a community and the truth is you want a village you have to be a villager right yeah people will come but you can't like mock them and I think that brands understand especially today that we're not interested so much in material things because we're like over it it's just so overwhelming you know we're interested in experience we're interested in in buying an object that will remind us of a certain feeling we have yeah and that's why they're creating that because they want to rather than say oh I'm gonna give money to Yves Saint Laurent you're gonna be like oh I love that movie made that by that person that company was involved oh I'll give them my money yeah and that's what they're doing and that's a trick that's super old you know and you know what if it brings some money we saw that with commercial and branded content the past 15 years. Yeah is that what happened with movies yeah that's fine with me because at the end of the day making studios is kind of the only way to for them to see how their product will be advertised you know yeah remember oh well remember I hope you don't I hope you haven't seen that but uh Sex and the City they had made that like thing you know and just like that which was my favorite show to trash what uh to trash watch I'm so sad it's gone. And in the first episode there was literally a Peloton and the Peloton gave money you know for that to happen like it was going to be a big commercial a beloved character dies on the Peloton. Yeah you don't know you have no idea that's gonna happen right so I think they just want to take back a little bit of the control of the narrative in that way. But again always pay you know that's true for everything follow the money. Yeah you want to know the truth about something what just follow the money and you have all the answers always and I think the one thing about this is that I'm not scared or worried about them coming into this market and throwing money at it because that's what we need.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:04

Throw please but I am like which is interesting me about this tubi and TikTok incubator is that they're saying that the creators will still have the direction of the projects but receive the guidance and the support from Tubi like creating that infrastructure in a way that I feel with TikTok and Tubi it's kind of just like they're invested in storytelling right with brands they're invested in advertising and that's a different driving factor. So we'll just see how it plays out but you know I have seen like I think Mew Prada has done like their short form program for a really long time and I've seen some great shorts that they've done. Rui Chi has one too yeah but seeing that translate because I yes I'm watching those because it's Mew Mew and it's Prada but it's like amazing to see the director of Zola she did one of those Janica Bravo she also did one with Prada and Mew Mew and I loved that little short it was so fun. So I think that there are places to position that especially in shorts like throw some shirts cost a lot of money like I think you need a minimum 15k to make a really good short like and that was kind of like you know 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:15

Now but you see that's my thing that's where I think this is interesting. You don't need to spend that money today. I'm sorry unless you're making a very you know you know what projects I'm talking about. Yes unless you're making very specific projects today if the point of your short film is to build yourself you know a little body of work before trying to do bigger things and because the point of short films is to make mistakes without millions of dollars. Yeah and it's to learn how to you know make films with like cardboard and like the enthusiasm like that that's the point. People that put 20k in a short film why are you doing that why are you doing that now that we have phones? That's true. And my thing is like it's not about the camera. It's never about the camera. It's about the choices you make about what's on the screen you know and people there's a disconnect with that.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:07

It's all something to continue to watch out for and how like this starts to shape I would say the stranded capital that we're talking about. But yeah moving on you want to tell us a little bit what's happening with Bad Robot?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:19

Yes I would love that Bad Robot it's the production company of JJ Abrams that was created in 1999. So he uses it to make a lot of his own movies but it also you know made a lot of big movies and so you know it's always interesting to follow the fate of companies like that. Especially since like in the movie industry you know when a company or festival has survived for 10 years it's huge. Yeah because it's so unstable right which is not necessarily true for like other industries. Yeah so right now what's happening with Bad Robot is just that like they've been making less movies. This week what was interesting is to see that an relevant for me is that Bad Robot which is an LA company Abraham's like sold like the 31 million dollar property that the offices were on closed the LA office packed his bags and moved to New York which is a huge thing yeah because it naturally it it makes you look you know like Hollywood when you think about the movies whether it's your industry or not you think about Hollywood the city that was literally a desert that was built for us to do that right and now people are flying away from Hollywood studios you don't film movies there anymore you film Jeopardy yeah that's the truth and when you have a company like Bad Robot that packs up and leaves that says a lot. That says a lot about the state of the industry that says a lot about where are we getting to make those movies in LA without the film industry. Yeah what is it?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:53

Yeah I think it's also you know there's a been a a lot happening as far as like LA and tax incentives and fires and f the fires like I think it's like LA is kind of the physical manifestation of how unstable the industry is right now and so people are fleeing away from it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:13

I think there's still things to do in LA you know like meetings and business to do in LA I think just like the time of making movies in LA is over is what I believe. But we'll see.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:22

And you know how this these next few years go can shape are they gonna set up a sustainable whether it's the tax incentives which they have upped to try to keep movies in LA being made in LA but just again the reality is it's expensive to make movies in America period. But I would say that how they go about trying to create a more sustainable infrastructure for movie making in LA will determine if films are continue to be made in Hollywood because that's a big source of its economy. I don't think they want to lose that.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:55

You're completely right but I'm gonna say something that maybe is going to be completely unrelated but I don't think so. Yeah. Don't forget that the next Olympics are in LA oh shit. And what what does that mean? Everyone knows you know Paris uh was the last Olympics yeah that means a lot of construction a lot of money that's spent because the priority is not on how the local lives it's about how the world stage is going to see a city. Yeah that's always the priority you know and then LA historically the traffic is awful yep I mean Laland there were protests because of that one scene at the beginning they shot and the fact that it just like blocked the highway for a while. When how is that gonna look when people come to LA for the Olympics? Yeah people from the entire world Paris was a shit show already a shit show and it's a walkable city.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:45

Imagine that imagine LA where you have to drive everywhere and like how's that gonna work out I'm really sending my deepest condolences to all you LA natives with that you they don't have the infrastructure for it. But that's but that's my point where's the money gonna go in the next two years where's the priority 2028 it's tomorrow yeah that's true how's that how is that gonna happen now again if everyone is leaving and you have those huge infrastructures that are empty maybe there's something fun to do there because the Paris Olympics it was very creative it was in terms of creativity but wow they used a lot of the established infrastructure in Paris and honestly poured money in uh repurposing repurposing but also like giving them a an upgrade like they uh you know tended to the the buildings and gave them much needed updates in their infrastructure and their facades and everything like that. And I think that the Olympic committee the committee does try to use and repurpose infrastructure that is already in that said city and then tries to rebuild infrastructure that it needs. Now though LA is like LA's been hit so hard with everything that's happening and I think that's gonna be a really defin I don't you know nobody saw the fires coming nobody like it's gonna be an interesting space as infrastructure wise for that city but then also how Hollywood is going to play a role in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

Yeah that's why that's why I mean like let's see let's see what happens you know yeah let's see what happens that is your temperature check um many many great things to look forward to to keep an eye out on always um but we'll take a short little break and then we'll tell you what we're watching okay Kiar so tell me what were you watching this week I saw the drama yesterday we're not we're not gonna talk about it there's much to talk about I'll say that right now though our next episode we're talking about the drama so tune in it's already decided Maritza I watched it yesterday and like let me tell you I came in expecting to be like whatever you know like oh it's gonna be fun yeah I had a really good time the Robert Pattinson's and diachemistry alone makes it worth it but also I was surprised and I like what the movie surprises me. So we'll talk about that like next time but that's mostly what I've been watching and the rest you can see on our Instagram. Honestly you can see on our Instagram what I'd be watching.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:20

Yeah I'm really excited to watch the drama I'm watching the drama uh next week because I want to and because we're talking about it on the podcast but yeah I'm really really excited for that I saw Zendaya she popped up at a theater in like Fort Green or like Park Slope recently this weekend to like go to yeah and she was wearing a Team Edwards shirt which is Wait was then London was it London oh sorry my bad then oh maybe I'm lying well she popped up yeah Zendaya popped up she made a she made an appearance in all of her glory and beauty and was wearing a Team Edward shirt and I lived for that. That was so good to me but this week I went to go see Pillion in the theaters because recently there was this article that Pillion will not be the same movie that you watch in theaters that you'll get on streaming and I just wanted all of the salacious queer kinky scents full plastic dig experience. I wanted the full package pun intended um but I saw it in theaters and I love that film so much. I know it was so great. I wasn't expecting that from I saw the trailers from it for it um when it was like first released and I was interested in it just didn't get around to seeing it in the theaters because I was in Atlanta and not in New York but yeah it's still showing in New York theaters and it might still be showing in a couple of select cities around America so if you can go see it in theaters highly recommend so you can get the full package and the full experience of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:49

It's also a feature debut so you know and also Alexanderskard. Yes yes that's all I need to see the plastic the package the experience Alexander's Kardsgaard yeah it was really I truly like I had a really great time it was such a fun film but such a heartfelt film um such a kinky film if that's what you're into but it's also very moving and very uh how do you say like your soft like your and the and the soundtrack is awesome. Awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:21

No it's it's stellar like and Alexander Skarsgird he's acting alongside Harry Merling he's incredible their chemistry in this is like really great and it's just also if you're a baby gay this might be a film for you. It's it's a really just like heartfelt just beautiful film. So yeah that's what I recommend you go see if you have money to spend money on films this week.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:45

And if you don't uh we post on our Instagram movie that you can watch for free on YouTube. Yeah and remember if you love the film industry Netflix hates YouTube so go for that well on that note that's our episode. Come back next week where we'll talk about all the drama in the drama I I cannot wait for you to see it because you're you're smiling right now and everything that's gonna change.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:11

Thank you so much thank you for listening to the screening list if you love the show you can follow us on Instagram at the screening list.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:24

This show is produced by Voxfilms and Nuda Productions our audio editor is Chloe O'Donnell cover art design by Griffin Reynolds and original music by Evan B