Crave To Connect | Building Better Relationships

Boundaries | Crave To Connect | Ep9

• Karina and Michael • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Crave To Connect is a candid, honest, and sometimes hilarious conversation about the messy realities of relationships.Hosted by Karina Paxton, a certified clinical EFT practitioner, and a trauma informed coach, and...

Michael Calderon, a licensed clinical social worker (LSCW) and a licensed clinical alcohol and drug counselor (LCADC) specializing in mental health, addiction, and relationship dynamics

The goal is simple: Real conversations about real life and real real relationships.

With their unique backgrounds in trauma recovery, therapy, and emotional healing, Karina and Michael bring two different perspectives to topics like toxic relationships, healing, personal growth, and understanding human behavior. 

Expect relaxed conversations, unexpected insights, and the occasional awkward moment, because that’s what real conversations look like.

Pull up a chair, get comfortable, and join the conversation.


To get in touch:

Instagram: 

https://www.instagram.com/liveyourlife.coach?igsh=dHJpcm1zZmQ3c3Ex&utm_source=qr

Website:

https://linktr.ee/liveyourlife.coach

Book a Call:

https://calendly.com/liveyourlife-coach/30-minute-discovery-call-helena-guest

Michael Calderon:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/michael-calderon-hackettstown-nj/1044394


SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Crave to Connect with your host Karina, the recovering men hater, and Mike, the former emotionally unavailable therapist. Sit back, get comfortable, and relax. Our whole vibe with this podcast is to casually dive into all the messy, hilarious, and sometimes confusing parts of relationships. Whether it's with yourself, all the humans, no pressure, just good chats, and maybe some awkward moments. Hello everybody. Welcome to Crave to Connect. Today we are going to talk about boundaries.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, boundaries, that's a big word.

SPEAKER_00

It's a big word, boundaries in many forms. And um we are going to start with a Brene Brown quote. I am a big fan of Brene Brown.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, you are.

SPEAKER_00

And she is she's just incredible when it comes to boundaries and vulnerability. And she says, when we fail to set boundaries and hold people accountable, we feel used and mistreated. This is why we sometimes attack who they are, which is far more hurtful than addressing a behavior or a choice. I love that so much, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yep. So I guess the question then would be I think so many people have heard a term, they kind of know what it means. But if you were to say explain boundaries, I think most people, as I would have before I became a therapist, would struggle with explaining what a boundary is, so to speak. So um what do you tell your clients a boundary is?

SPEAKER_00

So this is this took me a while to define for myself, but a boundary is really a protection for yourself. I tell my clients a boundary is for you to keep yourself safe. A boundary is not something you tell other people to get them to like you or respect you, or and they don't even have to agree with you. So a boundary is really just a self-protection. Um, because a lot of times what I hear from my clients is you know, the women I work with um have been in these dysfunctional relationships for a long time, whether it's family or intimate relationships. And so when you are in that situation, you are just used to being a people pleaser and saying yes to everything.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And so when I mentioned in the beginning the word boundaries, they freeze just like I used to do, and they say, Well, I can't, because then people are gonna think badly about me, or they're gonna say, God, you're so selfish.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And um, and it it it took me a while too to understand that when I have boundaries, the people in my life that I really want to keep in my life actually respect me, and it also makes it easier for people to know how to treat you because I'm telling you how I want to be treated. So boundaries.

SPEAKER_01

Right, that's what I think that's the most important thing. Sorry, but telling people how we want to be treated, what is acceptable behavior towards us, right? It lets them know, and we will go into all different types of boundaries during this podcast. But it when we talk about protecting ourselves, it's like, okay, so this is how I feel respected, this is how I feel valued. And if you do it in a different kind of way, that's gonna make make me feel less valued, less respected.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, what about you?

SPEAKER_00

How do you just find boundaries for yourself?

SPEAKER_01

I kind of, you know, I used I kind of like will I do it physically, sort of, meaning I'll I'll stand up and I'll say to them, like, let's say you draw a line in the sand, so to speak, and I'll kind of pretend to draw one, and I step over it, and you say, uh, nope, that's too close. Step step backwards. Sometimes what I'll do is I'll literally I'll get out of my seat and I'll I'll let them know I'm I'm demonstrating something, so please roll with me. I'm not trying to be aggressive because what I'll do is I will literally stand over the top of them. I'm like, how do you feel?

unknown

That's good.

SPEAKER_01

And they're like uncomfortable, and you can see them recoil and they know what I'm doing. They know I'm doing something for them to see. I said, that's what we talk about when we talk about emotional boundaries. You're you're telling me to back up, you're putting your hands up, you're backing away from me. That's what we need to do emotionally with people. We don't need to back off, but we need to set that boundary or that perimeter like this is acceptable emotionally, and this is not. If somebody walks in, and if we permit what someone's doing and we don't like it or if we feel it violates us, we are promoting them to continue to do it.

SPEAKER_02

100%.

SPEAKER_01

And so, therefore, I um I always let people know this is what we're talking about, and this is where you feel safe. You are backing off of me as I stand over you because I'm making you feel less secure, less safe. Yeah, and so when we talk about boundaries, it's our physical boundaries, of course, but emotionally, how how this is how I feel safe.

SPEAKER_00

That's beautiful. I like that you do that demonstration with your clients that because often like that helps a lot, right? Like you actually see someone do they feel it, do that, you feel it, and they feel how they feel in their body.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm not a small guy, so when I'm standing over somebody, it sometimes can be even more intimidating. Yeah, but anybody, right? Or if you get too close to someone, you know, if I just if I would even right now, I'm talking to you, and well, we're dating, you didn't back off, but I got right into Karina's space and talked right at her. Um, most people like, what are you doing? Like, come on.

SPEAKER_02

Personal boundaries.

SPEAKER_01

Well, yeah, when we're talking about emotional things, we accept that stuff and we'll feel that uncomfortable, but a lot of times we won't say anything because we don't want to make the other person feel bad, or we think that we're too sensitive, or whatever.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like you said that feeling, right? Because that's what I try to explain to my clients too. Like it's it's literally a feeling that you get in your body, right? It's that gut instinct, whether someone is like talking to clothes, like a close talker, right? Or someone who just let's say someone you don't really you don't have a really close relationship with, but they like to hug you every time they see you, right? Or I had a client whose ex-husband insisted that they hug every time they would get together in front of the children because otherwise the children would feel uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And she didn't know up until when we talked about it, she thought she had to agree to that because he wanted to do it and he was dictating that that was the relationship that he wanted. He wanted to portray this united front in front of the children, but her insides would freak out every time because this was an ex-husband, a person that she really didn't like, right? And right, so again, boundaries was not it was not for him to say to to understand and say, Oh, get that, we're divorced, like you don't want to hug me, right? And if this was not a person that she could personally say, you know what, I don't feel comfortable doing that. So she I taught her how to give him some social clues, right? So when he would they would greet each other and say hi in front of the kids, I told her, you can literally just like hold up your hand and be like, Hey, how are you? Just like gently, you just sort of do that. Yep, move your hand back down, stand back like that, right? Acknowledge him, but you stand back, and it worked, like he understood that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I had a very close personal friend, uh female friend, who, you know, despite our closeness emotionally, was not comfortable being touched. So she was not interested in hugging me. Um, and some people take that like, oh well, they don't care that much. And it was, I don't, she may have had trauma in her past, or but she didn't want to be touched. Right. And it's like, okay, I respected that. That doesn't diminish our friendship, but we're not gonna hug when we see each other or give a kiss or anything like you know, like a kiss on the cheek. She did not want to be touched.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So she would be very warm and welcoming without touching.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and that's so important to distinguish too, isn't it? The boundaries are going to look so different for everybody.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

We're all gonna have different boundaries because we are all different people, and our boundaries are going to change too, right? Depending on where we are in our life, how we feel, what kind of growth we're going through. Oh, how old we are. There we go.

SPEAKER_01

We just I mean, when you look at kids, they're always like, Oh, everything's dramatic, and yeah, I love everybody and you know, and love all my friends, and I give them hugs and kisses, but not adults, maybe, right? And then it starts to shift around.

SPEAKER_00

And but that's a good point, too, because I remember my daughter when she was younger, and we would get together in play groups, and some of the kids, including her, she was very touchy-feely. She loved to hugs and to hug other kids and the parents too. And then there were other kids, boys and girls, who were just like they couldn't be bothered, right? And so, as parents, I remember hearing that. Oh, go give him a hug, go give her a hug, right? And I was always, I always just had that feeling in my body. I always said, I'm not gonna force my daughter to hug people, I'm not gonna go encourage them and say you should really go give them a hug. It should be something that she should do if she feels like it.

SPEAKER_01

And we're gonna discuss different boundaries, and you know, we you may have different boundaries of different people. For instance, yeah, in both of our fields. I mean, I see people in person, you're more online, but even at when I was a teacher, right, uh, it was very rare that I would hug a student. And I certainly was not going to initiate that. But there are many things that can come with that. There's allegations, there's somebody sees it, what it could possibly look like, even if it's benign.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you know, there were times where, and even with clients, you know, where I will see somebody looks like, whether it's a male or female, maybe they really could use a hug. And I will say to them, um, you look like you could use a hug. Would it would you like one?

SPEAKER_00

I like that asking first.

SPEAKER_01

Right, and then also being careful how you hug them, right? Right. You you want to not make it any kind of intimacy, but yet you want them to feel in that circumstance the embrace because it it's just something, whatever they're going through, they feel safe, or maybe they just a release, like feeling like somebody cares or anything like that, whatever they need. But I always ask them, you look like would you like a hug? That's right. And some people will say yes, and some people will say no.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And whatever their choices, yeah. Um, just knowing, you know, I trust my instincts usually on those things. Um, and so that's kind of what we're gonna be talking about throughout this, is a lot of things to cover. And at the end, we'll discuss actually. Uh, a friend of mine had a situation with his um living girlfriend. Both of them had been married prior, both of them have children with their former. Well, actually, I think one was married, one wasn't, but it was they lived together, they had children, and they both have children with their former partners. And it was a situation that Karina and I will discuss at the end, and we'll love to get your feedback, in fact, on that.

SPEAKER_00

We we would so maybe let's start with why a boundaries are important, right? Like boundaries are important, so you are clear on where who and where, like who is responsible for what, right? When you're in whatever it is, it's relationships at home, it's your work, it's what your children, right? So, again, if I communicate out loud to you, this is what I like and this is what I don't like.

SPEAKER_01

Well, what's acceptable to you, right? When we teach our children what's acceptable behavior in our home and try to teach them again, boundaries shift, right? Well, this might be acceptable at home, but this is not acceptable if we're dining in a restaurant.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And they have to learn the difference. And this is certainly not acceptable at school.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, or you know, something that's acceptable at school may not be acceptable at home. And so that's a great example of how things can shift and what what we mean is we're trying to teach others what works for us, right? Like my friend who did not want to be hugged, yeah, or touched for that matter.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and that you understood that and didn't take that personally. You were just like, well, that's that's her boundary, and I respect that.

SPEAKER_01

And I to be fair, I understand that because probably of all my schooling and experience as a therapist, because prior to being a prior to going to school to be a therapist, I was one of those people that heard the word boundaries, but A didn't really have many and didn't really know what it meant.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Which is why I felt like I needed to define it, we needed to define it clearly. We discussed that, but I mean, even from my perspective, for that reason. So um, so yes, I try to practice uh in my personal life what I share with people and try and help them to practice in their lives, but prior to that I struggled.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, same. So, really for me, when you don't have boundaries, right, boundaries really protect you from codependency. And we'll talk more about what that is, because each person are responsible for themselves, right? Like you own your stuff. So, and certainly in pre-use relationships, not with you, but in private relationships, I was so codependent that I would literally chameleon myself to fit into this person's life. So if this person said, Oh, I like that, I'll be like, Yeah, me too. Oh, I want to do that.

SPEAKER_03

You did that too.

SPEAKER_00

I would oh, I do you want to do that? Yeah, absolutely. And my whole insides were like, oh my God, I don't know if I don't. And that's not to say it's not it's not healthy, right? To try something new and to be like, Oh, I don't know if I like that. But I would literally pretend that I liked whatever this person said because I thought if I'm so agreeable, this is gonna work out great, right?

SPEAKER_01

Reminds me of that scene in uh coming to America when he meets his his bride to be, the first one that his father picked, yeah. And he says, Well, what do you like? And she says, Whatever you like, whatever you like, that's right. Yeah, he goes, So, and he keeps answering, so if I tell you to bark like a dog, she starts barking, right? And it's almost like that. And that's an example of absolutely no boundaries from her. Yeah, and he's testing her boundaries, he's not happy with this, right? Right, but when you that was the image I got of her standing there, that's right, whatever you like, whatever you like, yeah. And you were describing what you used to do, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So when you don't, when you're not your own person, right? When you are codependent, that's how we can get into toxic relationships, whether it's friendships or intimate relationships. Right. Because again, you don't feel like you have a sense of self, you don't know what you like and don't like, or you're afraid to say it out loud. So you sort of immerse yourself, you sort of get mushed together with this other person. And that's not what we're here to do, right? We are two individuals on our own journey that gets together once in a while, and that's so important to distinguish.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I used to fear that if if I I didn't want there to be too many discrepancies, because then that would be reasons for them to say, you know, we're too different and move on.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Meanwhile, the discrepancies are better. We were just talking about this earlier today. Like we have so much in common, but we are very different in in quite a few ways.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that's what I love. I don't want to date myself.

SPEAKER_00

Same. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I think I'm a decent guy, but I sure don't want to date me.

SPEAKER_00

I I don't, I don't want, I don't want, no, I don't want to myself either. No, but that's because we have done the work that we do and we continue to do the work and we understand ourselves so much more, right? Right. And we also know that boundaries are for us, right? To say this is what this is what I like and this is what I don't like.

SPEAKER_01

Right. When we set a boundary, we shouldn't be thinking of what the other person wants or needs.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because it's about our needs. We have a right to be to have things that we want and that we need. It cannot just be about them. So when we decide about boundaries, it really has nothing to do with you in our relationship. It's about me. What am I not? What makes me uncomfortable and what am I comfortable with?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And same for you.

SPEAKER_00

And in a healthy relationship, the other person hearing that will, even if they don't agree, or even if that's nothing that they would really feel that way about, in a healthy relationship, the other person will say, Okay, thank you for telling me. Right. Right. I respect that. I I really do, because that's what we want, right? We want an individual to express how they feel, what they want, what they don't want, in order to be to continue to be two individuals, right? That comes together and lead whether it's it's a relationship or friendship.

SPEAKER_01

No, and something we were also talking about before when we were kind of we don't do much prep for podcasts, but this was a big one with a lot of information. We did a little bit of research here, so we're kind of sorting through it and deciding what we wanted to focus on. And one of the things I had brought up to Karina was, you know, when we are sharing a bed, we will lie and kind of cuddle before, you know, in the beginning and night. And there are some people that want to lie like completely intertwined with one another. And I've done that in the past. It usually at some point during the night I wake up and something hurts, and I gotta get out of that entanglement. But um, Karina would roll over at some point, okay, good night, and roll over. And the old me would have gotten hurt by that. Well, oh, she doesn't okay, she had enough of me. Or wow, she doesn't want to lay close with me. And she has a king-sized bed, so it's like an ocean between us sometimes, you know. I have a queen-sized bed, not as not as much space. And but that would that was her boundary, right? She wants to have that intimacy, she wants to feel all of that before going to sleep. And then when she's ready to actually go into sleep, she rolls over and she needs her space. Yeah, and that's a healthy boundary that you were able to establish without stating a word. And luckily, because the old me may not have been able to kind of process that in a healthy way. I was able to. It doesn't mean that you don't want to be close to me. It means that you need some space when you're sleeping.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I think a lot of couples have struggles with this at times.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, 100%. And it's just, you know, I was sleeping in my own bed for like 11 years. So pretty much 11 years. So, you know, it's just for me, it wasn't even a thing I thought about. Like, I'm gonna roll over because that's what I'm used to. I like sp I love cuddling with you, but I also like my space. And and that's how I sleep the best, right? Because sleep, as we probably have established, is very important to me. So, but again, it's just it's something that it's something that is just really important to talk about. Yes, right, and for you not to feel like, oh my god, like she doesn't like me, has nothing to do with that, right? It's just, and especially as we get older, like you said, things hurt. Like if I lie in a certain position for a period of time, I'm like, oh, my shoulder hurts, my side hurts. I gotta I gotta roll over. Um, so again, it's just important to just normalize it and to say it out loud, right? So that's really physical boundaries, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so we're doing also, we want to talk about emotional boundaries or sexual boundaries, um, material boundaries, which um, and then there's uh intellectual or I like to think of more emotional boundaries. We could talk about time boundaries and healthy boundaries, and then what are healthy boundaries? Um, but these are various types. There's even if we wanted to break it down even further, there's more. This is there's not enough time in this podcast, but uh certainly um one thing we talked about is if anyone would like to hear more podcasts about specific boundaries like work boundaries, boundaries with your children that you're raising, um in-laws or family, please comment and we'd be happy to oblige and create a podcast specifically for those things. But in the meantime, we're just kind of doing an overview of boundaries, correct?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, or if you have questions about boundaries or an example you want to share, because absolutely I just feel like it's just for me when I learned what boundaries meant to me, it was just so empowering. And when I got over the fact that, oh my god, it doesn't mean I'm horrible, it doesn't mean I'm a bitch, it doesn't mean that right, I'm a I'm a bad person. It just and the people I was able to attract into my life were people that really respected that and was like, thank you for telling me, right? And I know I have said that to you many times too throughout our the last eight months, right? I'm like, thank you for telling me. Like I'm really glad that you tell told me that so I know because none of us are mind readers, right? And I certainly can recall back in many relationships where I'm like, I don't know why this person doesn't understand that. Yeah, this person is not a mind reader. So if I wouldn't say out loud what it was that I felt because I was so afraid that this person will either dismiss me or shut me down or call me names, again, I was just so agreeable. You know, minimize it and be like, really, that's how you feel? Like those are not the people we want to be in relationship with. If if if we express how we feel, and this person is just like, I I don't know why you, that's like fucking crazy. Yeah, it's like it's not, it's just it's important to me.

SPEAKER_01

And I and it's important not to use boundaries to manipulate for your in a selfish way, right? Or to get what you want. And when I think of an example of that, um, for those of you who have watched a show, everybody loves Raymond. That's what Ray does all the time to Deborah, right? And her his mother does it all the time to him, right? She manipulates, she'll put some kind of boundaries to manipulate guilts, which is not a healthy emotion, and boundaries should not. Invoke guilt. And in others, when they're when a boundary is being put out, should not necessarily feel guilty. Sometimes you might feel bad if you if you have violated the boundary unknowingly, but then it's like, okay, now I know I so hopefully not feel guilt but make adjustments. But they're not something that should be used to manipulate because oftentimes people are suspicious or you're just doing that to get your way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you know, there needs to be integrity when we're setting boundaries. It can't, it's got to be what helps us to feel safe and secure, not what gets us what we want, so to speak. There's a big difference.

SPEAKER_00

100%. And there's also a big difference between rules and boundaries, right? So I think we should talk about that. That's really important. So and and again, we can be flexible on certain things, right? On rules. Let's say in my house, my rule is I don't wear shoes in my house.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01

That's not the rule in my house.

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_01

I don't.

SPEAKER_00

And that's one of the first things I asked you when I came to your house the first time. I'm like, Do you want me to take my shoes off? And you were like, No. And I was like, shit, I I don't wear shoes in my house. But this is just how I grew up. We didn't wear shoes in my house, my family or anybody else. And I just I just don't like the idea that we bring stuff in from the outside. And I have I have cats and I have bunnies, and I just don't want them to be sniffing all that. So like that's a rule, I would say. I would say that is a rule in my house, right? It's like this is my rule, like it's non-negotiable. I'm really sort of tough on that. If people walk in and they have shoes on, I'll say, Do you mind? Do you mind leaving your shoes right here?

SPEAKER_01

And she cuts people's hair in her house, she makes them take their shoes off when they go.

SPEAKER_00

And everyone knows that, right? So I feel like from that's a big distinguish between this is my rule, it's not negotiable. Like I'm strict with that, right? What about you? How do you see rules and boundaries?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think also sometimes rules can be again manipulative, right? Yeah. And I mean, I think it's a boundary, it's a rule, but it's a boundary. Um, what you're describing. But like a rule is like um, you know, like, okay, you're not gonna talk back to me, you'll do as I say. Especially in a, and we're not again, I think even in the parent-child dynamic, but you know, in a with a partnership, that's not okay. That kind, you know, that kind of a rule, right? Right? Or I have final say. And you know, we we discuss things. There are gonna be times that you have final say, there'll be times that I have final say, where depending on what we're talking about, and maybe how strongly we feel about whatever it is. But so I think also rules go along that line of manipulation, or they're just not they're not there when we talk about these kind of rules, not Karina's rule about shoes, but rules that are damaging, they're put in place to they're to put in place to control the situation. That's all our boundaries are about.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And it's a structure. I would say it's a structure too, right? So like in my house too, I have certain rules with my daughter, right? There's like a bedtime, that's a rule, right? And there is when you're done eating, you put your dishes in the sink, a dishwasher.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um, which happens very rarely, right? But that is something we're working on, right? So again, for me, that's important because that's like a structure, right? But I would say it's nothing, it's yeah, it's something I would love to have happen, but it's not something that is it's not the same to me as a boundary in terms of like, oh my gosh, like I feel really sad if you are not respecting what it is that I say. Like it's a role, it's on the refrigerator, and this is what we do, right? When we leave the house to get to school in the morning, we leave at a certain time, right? That's a rule. We have to be in the car at a certain time so we can get to school. Right before like you are you're a considered party, right?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Yep.

SPEAKER_00

I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_01

So I guess we should maybe talk about some examples of some of the things we're speaking about, right? Like um, you know, for instance, um, you know, maybe um if somebody, you know, an emotional boundary or an intellectual boundary, you know, what does that look like, right? So um usually those are things that make us feel disrespected, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I know I could be a little bit sarcastic at times. Uh, you know, so and Karina can too, but in our relationship, you know, maybe I'm sarcastic about something that's a little sensitive to Karina, and she's not sure if I'm like being a little because, you know, I mean, I could sometimes be, you know, like a little snarky or something, and and you know, and whatever it was, even she doesn't know how to take it, or even if I was being sarcastic, it hurt her feelings. It's important for her to tell me that and to reset that boundary, right? You think of it as that line, and I may not realize it, but that line in the sand, I just crossed it and she needs to say, Hey, you need to set back bud. Right. Like, well, I was just kidding. Well, I know you were kidding, but I don't really find it funny in this situation.

SPEAKER_00

Right, or I didn't like your tone of voice, right? Like, I didn't like the way that that's a big one. I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right. So you're pointing out my tone of voice, right? Yeah, and for us to and then for me to hear that without being defensive. Yeah. Oh, you always have a problem with my tone of voice. And now here we go, right? No, I don't. Oh bullshit. And now, before you know, we're in a big fight over her trying to set a reasonable boundary with me, and maybe we're not talking for the rest of the night, right?

SPEAKER_00

That could happen with couples, so I think maybe a good example too would be like my behavior last Friday when I was hangry, you know, like well, you weren't you weren't you weren't inappropriate, but no, but it it was still something that made me really think, right? So, like, and that was something that I really should be taking responsibility for, but I just want to share this.

SPEAKER_01

And I must take responsibility. I screwed up dinner because I was using the Instant Pot and I forgot to put the liquid in to make the steam in the innspot, so we couldn't figure out why I wasn't cooking and what was going on, and then it burned eventually, and the rice was still crunchy, and now we're getting close to 10 o'clock at night, right? For dinner because of this, and then go ahead.

SPEAKER_00

And then we try to savage it in the in the in the on the stove in the vault, and that didn't help. It just kept it just kept getting crispy. So so Mike drove and got pizza very late, and what was happening to me was I was I completely shut down because I was hangry, and I really think I think it's paramenopause, and something happens to my blood sugar, and I just I can't think rationally, I can't express that I'm like starving right now. It was just like I was just done.

SPEAKER_01

It was like Well, she was great. We're playing games in the meantime while we're trying to salvage this, and she was great, but whenever the topic of the food came up, she got very quiet, and I started to feel very bad because I'm the one that messed up dinner.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And I kept apologizing, which is what I used to do when I was really needy and lacked boundaries, and so I brought it up to her the next day, the next day, and I said, you know, I'm sorry that I I just want to apologize for apologizing too much, and I explained to her what I was experiencing and why that happened. I said, I think you were hangry, you know, angry because she was hungry. For those of you who don't know what I mean by that, right? That she was hangry, and I was, and so whenever I mentioned it, I said you were very quiet, and I took it as you being angry with me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And she was like, I was, yeah, I guess I was hangry, but it wasn't that I was angry with you. And we were able to talk through it.

SPEAKER_00

And that was just such good information for me to know, right? And that's and that's my responsibility to remember that when it gets close to a certain time, like I need to eat a snack. So that's what I did the next day, right? I had to snack because I knew it was going to be late again and I was fine, right?

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But again, it it's communicating, and and now I know that for you, you felt like I was just shutting you out, right? And it's like so good for me to know that when I get quiet like that, how that affects you, right? So that's an emotional boundary too, to be like, I it didn't feel good to me that you shut down the way that you did, because I didn't know really what that meant, but after we talked about it, that sort of became right, right, right, and so then we were talking about time boundaries, which she and I both struggle with.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, right, because some people think if you're not on time, that's disrespectful. Whereas for us, it's something we just fight. And yes, if you're a half hour late, we will we fight, meaning not, I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. We don't fight each other, we fight ourselves with being on time. We're both five to ten minutes late for everything. And so if I'm really running late and now I'm 20 minutes, that's that that at that point that can be considered disrespectful. And so, like in my business, all of my clients know that I run, I know I've been working at this my whole life, and I never have mastered this idea of punctuality, and but even time spent on things, right? Where we're not spending enough time, and if you feel like there isn't, like, for instance, let's have a real important talk about something, and you know, us guys, we're done in five minutes. And if it's if you know if Karina feels that we didn't spend enough time on it and she doesn't feel satisfied with it, she needs to let me know, and I need to be able to hear her without judgment.

SPEAKER_00

But that was also something we talked about early in the relationship, right? When you said to me, I am just usually running behind, I'm late.

SPEAKER_01

And I was on time for our first date, you are, and I was not.

SPEAKER_00

No, and uh, and that was so good for me to know too, because if I was not a person that would run late, I would literally feel like, oh my god, like he doesn't value me. Like he this person, he shows up late all the time. Why can't he be on time? Like I'm sitting here waiting for him.

SPEAKER_01

Seems like I don't care about your time.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. But because you expressed it and you told me, right, I could have said to you, I I don't like that. I want you to be on time, I'm always in time. But luckily I'm not, so that worked out.

SPEAKER_01

And if she did say that, I still wouldn't be able to, and I would hope she would understand. This is not disrespect.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Right? It's just it's a flaw of mine and of hers.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It's so important to communicate because again, I wouldn't have known unless you would have told me I would have taken it personally.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, and we talked about physical boundaries like with my friend and some other things about sending over people, or you know, my little demonstration. But what about sexual boundaries?

SPEAKER_00

I think that is so important too. In previous relationships, I would not have really clear boundaries about that. I would sort of just follow this other person's lead.

SPEAKER_01

But when I met you, and she chose me to have the sexual boundaries with the first time.

SPEAKER_00

I did. I did. It was just really clear to me that I knew probably for the first time in my in my adult life, that I was, it had been a very long time, you know, divorced, 70 years, I had not dated, I've been with anybody. It was just really important for me to be clear on that. And that was my boundary, and I told you in the car, and it wasn't anything hard for me because I, at this point in my life, I am just I'm very secure within myself, and I know what I want, and I know what I don't like. So I literally said to you, I think it's on our second date, we were in the car, you were a very nice date, very nice date. Went to the theater, saw this great play. It was a surprise, and you drove me home in the car, you asked if I want to go out for dinner, and I was like, No, I just want to go home. That was when I would go to bed at 10 o'clock still. That's now changed. But in the car, I remember as you turned off the car, my brain was like, What what what do we do now? Does he expect me to like make out with him in a car as like a thank you for taking me to the theater? And but my whole body was like, I'm not ready for that yet. And it had nothing to do with you as a person because this was such a wonderful date. But because I understood so much more about me and the fact that this just didn't feel right for me yet, I was able to express that to you. And because you are who you are, you listened. And you did not make me feel bad about it. You didn't go, really? Can you give me a timeline? It was just, it was just a really great conversation. And I just remember being like, oh my god, that's what it feels like to express your boundaries to someone who can actually hear it and and respect it, right? It wasn't like you tried, it was not let me see if I can push it, let me see if I can lean over and give her a kiss. And you were very respectful. Well, I mean, you were very clear with your boundaries, but someone else would have been like, All right, well, she said that, but maybe I can put like my hand somewhere, or maybe I can try to kiss him when we say goodbye, or let's see if she really means it. But you were very respectful of that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I understood. I didn't want to make you uncomfortable. Um you were somebody I was very interested in. I really felt there was some potential, obviously. I was right. You were, but you know, um, and younger me, you were so clear with your boundaries. I don't even think younger me might have tried to press that. Um, but you know, younger me might be a little more assertive or aggressive in trying to pursue something physical in that man, but you were so you were very clear, and younger me, I don't think, would have either. But if you were even a little less cle clear, I still wouldn't have now. But 20-year-old me probably would have. Right, right. You know, it was uh but with the things I've learned and everything, and I I wanted you to feel respected on also. It wasn't like I was thinking that in my head, but I did respect you. Yeah, I the last thing I would want to do is anything to violate that that feeling that because I it was important that you knew I respected you.

SPEAKER_00

So I think too, that set the tone for like the progression of our relationship, right? Because that was very clear that I was not interested in you know becoming into being intimate anytime soon, right? I wanted to get to know you. And I think the way I don't remember word for word what I said, but I think the way I expressed it too was just like I, if this is meant to happen, this is going to evolve naturally. I don't feel like I overexplained myself. I don't I didn't like share too much personal information, right? I didn't go into all my traumas. I just really said this is this is what I'm interested in, this is what I'm not interested in. So for me, that was like a really clear boundary that clearly you understood. So there was no room for negotiation or questions or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01

And if there was to go back, because we never really clarified codependency is when you kind of want to make sure that you you give up so much of yourself to someone else so that they're happy. Yeah, and then you tell yourself that makes me happy, but you you just you don't have boundaries when you're codependent, you're all about the other person. You completely deplete yourself of all your energy because you're never depositing in your own emotional account. Yeah, and if you had been codependent, you would have never said that to me.

SPEAKER_00

No, I would just have followed your lead.

SPEAKER_01

And you would have followed my lead. In fact, you might have even kind of led me to believe that you wanted me to kiss you, even if I wasn't thinking about it, because you thought that's what I wanted.

SPEAKER_02

100%.

SPEAKER_01

And so, um, but you were very assertive, very clear, and um, and that's a healthy boundary.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So then we were talking about like material boundaries. That was one of the things we had mentioned, right? And that's about our belongings, our things. I guess the house and taking shoes off would be fall into that, right?

SPEAKER_00

I think so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, yeah. You know, uh it could be food. Some people don't like sharing food. We're not like that.

SPEAKER_00

I love that you like to share food.

SPEAKER_01

We just shared food earlier today at a at a little cafe, yeah. Um, but there are people like, don't touch my food.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, this is my food. Yes, yeah, and I hate that, but I respect that. I'm like, okay, you don't, you don't want I can't even have a bite. I'm like, okay, and I know that. I I really have certain friends that are like that. They're like, nope.

SPEAKER_03

Nope.

SPEAKER_00

And um, and I'm like, okay. And and again, I I respect it because this person is just being really clear, right? And I would always ask, like, is that okay?

SPEAKER_03

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00

And I feel, you know, what I when I'm when you said that, what I think about too is like your home, right? So like no shoes, but also how how are you in somebody else's house, right? Like, do you come in and do you like throw yourself on the couch and put your stinky feet on the table, for instance, right? Like, there's just some people that wouldn't care, and then there's other people that's like, just please don't do that. Like, yeah, that's like that's like gross. I don't do that. So it's like being respectful of or even asking, right? Is it okay if I put my feet there? Or where would you like me to put the glass? Do you have a coaster, right? Or um, do you want me to help you do dishes? Whatever it is, right? So you show respect and you also learn by asking questions, right? Because often that other person might not be like, okay, I don't want you to sit here, don't put your feet up here. And so just showing respect, I think, is like really important too when you go into somebody's house.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, or even after a while, I mean, you have two sinks in your bathroom, and I was using this one sink, and I noticed that she had to keep reaching over me. I'm like, Am I on your sink?

SPEAKER_02

That's right.

SPEAKER_01

And you're like, Well, yeah, that's a sink I tend to use. I'm like, well, then I'll use the other sink, you know, like and and she goes, and it was like almost like she deflated, like, yeah, oh great. Like, I don't I I hate that I'm not using my sink, you know. Like, so uh now I use the other sink when I'm like.

SPEAKER_00

But in my mind, I was like, Oh, it's not a big deal. He's just over here, right? You don't sleep over every night. But then after you switch to the other side, I'm like, I like this so much better. So like I really appreciated you like saying that, and just I'm like, oh, you're on the other side now. Like, that's nice, like it feels better to be on the side.

SPEAKER_01

Right, yeah, yeah. And so that was one time we didn't, yeah, but I happened to notice and asked you, and then we you were able to establish it then. So um we're you know, so we've talked about what healthy looks like, right? So healthy boundaries promote respect of one another, then they enhance communication, right? That's right. Um again, without judgment, right? We don't want to assume we don't want to have judgment, we want to be curious. So when we're curious, we can then receive the other people enforcing boundaries. But also, you know, I was open to receiving, and although Karina didn't set the boundary with the sink, I could see that she was kind of kept like this, I think this is her sink. So I brought it up to her, which also you know, if we ever were to live together, I don't want to get used to being on the wrong side because then it's gonna be uncomfortable for both of us, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00

And I also like that the new me was like, Yeah, that is my side after you said it, right? The old me that had no boundaries might be like, Oh, that's okay. You can stay on my side, I'm just gonna keep reaching over for my toothbrush, right?

SPEAKER_01

So that's and then yeah, and that's what amount, you know. So I kind of put it together.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, they prevent uh resentment, right? And again, what happens when we make assumptions or we don't say anything for to be able to be, oh, I don't want to make them feel bad. So when we don't, we start to build resentments about that. We do, and then it's like, and then we blow up, and the other person's like, what the hell, right? Like if you were to let's use a sink as an example, blow up, and you're like, you know what? I mean, what the hell? You even took my fucking sink, and it's like, what? Right, what do you mean I took your sink? Yeah, this is the sink that it's just the this is one I've always used, right? And yet you resent me because you never established a boundary about the sink because now I've been at your sink now for a year, right?

SPEAKER_00

And if I would have said from the beginning, you know, hey, that's my side, yeah, you can use this side, right?

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um, that would have made it very clear because again, none of us are mind readers, so it's just so important to say out loud how we feel, what it is that we want, right? And again, if you were if you're in a relationship with the right person, they will respect that.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and you know, there won't be that level of resentment again because you're curious, right? You're not we're not gonna judge or we're not gonna get upset about it. Yeah, um, it fosters independence, right? So that we can make our own independent decisions, we're not codependent. Oh, I don't know. I I really feel like eating this tonight, but I really have to ask Mikey if he wants that, right? What? No, right? No, make it if you really want it, yeah. If I didn't say, hey, could you please make this, then why would why should I be upset about that, right? So I mean that's a kind of a silly, but it is a good example of independence, right?

unknown

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and then it also encourages and builds trust, which we have been doing with us, and again, you know, we, you know, I think sometimes we may portray ourselves as this iconic couple when it comes to all these things. That that's not necessarily true. And there's some misses, as we described, with her being angry, but you know, we both also have really fucked a lot of relationships up, and by sometimes our behavior and a lot of times what we permitted, because when you permit it, as I said before, you're promoted. So we're not models, but we have learned well, we're in the field, we've been trying to apply the principles that we teach others, and it's been easy. We found the right person to do this with, otherwise, it it wouldn't be this easy. And even if you have the right person, it's not always easy. Sometimes there's some really rocky patches to work through.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And if we have some of those super rocky patches, you will all hear about them because we're going to share them.

SPEAKER_00

Well, because I feel like that's how we learn too, right? We learn by talking about it. And and just by normalizing, sometimes it could be really hard to be like, I don't like this, especially if you know what the other person does.

SPEAKER_01

Definitely. And lastly, you know, well, not necessarily lastly, but the last thing that we're covering with the healthy part is it it really supports healthy conflict resolution.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right? Being able to be creative in how we resolve conflicts, being able to compromise rather than all or nothing. So many couples I've worked with in therapy, it's like somebody wins and somebody loses.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Either they have to give in and give the person what they want, or they take it all. And it's like, well, sometimes that does have to happen on certain things, but on other things, it why can't we talk about it? Why can't we think of a way for each of us to get what we want? Maybe not everything we want, but enough that we're satisfied.

SPEAKER_00

And agree to disagree, right? Like, and I think a lot of it we talk about that too. It's like respect, right? When you really respect someone, it doesn't mean you agree with them 100%, but like I respect that that's what you like. I respect that this is what you want. I might not have, I might not feel the exact same way, but I respect that because I respect you as a person.

SPEAKER_01

Right, absolutely. And so I guess um we'll discuss some of the negative things that kind of come into with the boundaries, and then we'll get into our little uh case example. Yeah. Um, so some of the negative things were um well when you have unhealthy boundaries, right?

SPEAKER_00

It is or you don't have any boundaries at all. We talked about that. It can really lead to codependence, right? And again, it can also lead to so many unnecessary arguments because that person that you're angry with, because why don't they know that that is my sink? Why don't they know I like to sleep on the right side of the bed?

SPEAKER_01

Why do they take me for granted? Why why are they taking me for giving them the boundaries, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So why are they taking me for granted? Because it's not been required, or you're wanting them to do something but never communicated it to them. They should just know. They should just know.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01

I don't care how long you've been together, that is a pitfall that isn't where you know. I know people will know each other inside and out at times, and they've been together for so many years and so close, but it's always better to communicate what you want or what you need rather than relying on that no matter what.

SPEAKER_00

100%, because also that changes, right? Let's say, you know, the wife has been the person that has always made dinner every single night, right? For whatever reason, she might get to a point, especially in paramenopause, where she's like, screw that, I don't want to make dinner every night. I get super hot, right, over the stove. Or why is that my responsibility? But she does not communicate that to her partner or to the family members, right? So she walks around with this resentment and anger and throws pots around or whatever, and the rest of the household is like, What's what's wrong with her, right? And again, it's if we can just say, Look, I know I've been making dinner for whatever X amount of time. I I don't want to, I don't want to be the one responsible for doing dinner every single night, right? Making dinner every single night. So that can lead that whole unspoken um situation can just lead to all this resentment and hate, and it just it builds up on top of each other, right? And then eventually that becomes the catalyst, let's say, for an another explosion that has nothing to do with that. But the wife is like, every single fucking night I have to make dinner, and the husband will be like, I don't know what you mean. You've always made dinner, right?

SPEAKER_01

What's the problem, right? This is or even we've talked about when we we will eventually move in together, when we move in together, we've discussed where the jobs are gonna be, what's the job division gonna be, right? Yeah, it's not right for me to assume that she's gonna cook every night because she has she's a female in the female role, yeah. And you know, if she's assuming, I mean, that I'm gonna do all the masculine type of trick, you know, like maybe I'm not good at her, or maybe I don't want to, right? And maybe there's something that she wants to do, right? There might be something she enjoys.

SPEAKER_00

You are not a grocery shopper at all. No, so so that is something I know, and that's something he said. Like, I I can't wait for you to do that. I am a Trader Joe's girl. Uh I have a very intimate relationship with Trader Joe's before I met you.

SPEAKER_01

If I didn't know Trader Joe's was a restaurant, was a supermarket, I would think she was sleeping with Trader Joe. Yes, that's how that's she is always talking because she talks about Trader Joe's a lot. I do you know when you hear about a man a lot, you think, wow, is there something going on? Uh-huh. Luckily, I know Trader Joe's is a supermarket.

SPEAKER_00

It's a supermarket.

SPEAKER_01

Because otherwise, I might think something was like.

SPEAKER_00

I don't even I call it a grocery store, I call it a lifestyle. It's like I show up, I show up and it brings me so much happiness. I'm so glad it does. So again, if that's nothing we would have talked about, and if I didn't like that, right, that would have been a lot of resentment about that. So you hate grocery shopping, I don't mind it. Right. Right. So we can take that off your plate and then have you do something that I absolutely can't stand, right?

SPEAKER_01

And I don't want to cook every night either, but we can share cooking.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, yeah. Like uh also if we have to have press clothes, I don't mind ironing clothes. A lot of people hate.

SPEAKER_02

I can't stand that.

SPEAKER_00

I would not be ironing.

SPEAKER_01

I would iron clothes for you for you to go to some formula. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So again, if we don't bring it up and we don't know, and sometimes we don't know the answer to that. It's like, let me think about that. I don't know. And to know that no is a complete sentence, yes, right? I think so many of us struggle with that. I used to struggle with that so much. I used to feel like if I said no, I would have to come up with like a novel of an explanation, and I would make sure that the other person would would understand. And if not, I would just keep over-explaining myself.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And I had a therapist that said to me, No is a complete sentence, Karina. And it just blew my mind. I was like, I can really just say no. That does not work for me. And again, if you're in any sort of relationship with a healthy person, they will hear you and not take it personally, and it would not change your relationship, right? So it's it's practice. So before we get into um, I think we should mention that little scenario, but just just knowing that boundaries takes time, it takes time to figure out what your boundaries are, what you like, what you don't like, and how to say it out loud. So start small and start with safe people, healthy people in your life, someone you feel close to.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Start by just saying no to things, like no, going out like after nine o'clock just doesn't work for me. Whatever it is, right? Like it is just so important. So when you start small like that, you are eventually going to get to know yourself more. What do I like? What don't I like? Oh, I can actually say it out loud. And it's met absolutely resentment and anger, it's met with like thank you for telling me.

SPEAKER_01

You know, and even I I I had a a friend of mine, uh it could have been very benign, but she um her husband loved to go antiquing and she would go with him because she was quite codependent. And as she she was in therapy herself, and as she was learning about boundaries, she it was hard for her, but she told him, I don't think I want to go antiquing anymore. And he got very upset. What do you mean? I don't like it. He goes, What do you mean? You've always liked it. This is what we do. I never liked it. I did it because you liked it, and I really dislike it. Yeah, and he had a very hard time with that because it had gone. I mean, we're talking this couple was married for 40 years. We're talking this went on for 40 years or 35 years, whatever. And now she's telling him I never liked it. Yeah, it's like, what you you didn't love me either? Like, what else are you gonna tell me, right? Right, right, you know, and and like, but he luckily eventually he was able to hear it, but he struggled with it. He struggled, and she struggled to do it, but she had the courage to do it. Yeah, and that's what can happen if you do these things and lose yourself like that. She literally disliked it but did it for him all those years. And then she felt so she felt like such a weight was lifted off because she doesn't have to do it anymore.

SPEAKER_02

I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01

So let's get into our example. Yeah, so these again, this is a friend of mine, right? Um, this happened recently. Again, like I said before, both of these people had prior relationships. I think one was married and one, it was like a marriage, but they each had kids, they were long-term relationships, and so um anyway, he's his ex-wife wanted to meet him for dinner to discuss their child or children. I forget how many child he has one, their child, and he says, Okay, let me know when. So then she, his current partner, and she has her own kids, she gets upset about it, and he's like, Listen, there's nothing going on. She goes, I don't think there's anything going on. He goes, What's the big deal? And she's like, The big deal is you don't go to dinner with your ex-wife. He goes, We're talking about our kid. She mentioned something about court too to him, and and then she and then his current girlfriend, she was like, Well, and don't you want to know about the what the court thing is? I said, He goes, I'll figure out, I'll find out when I get there. She goes, Don't you want to prepare for it? He goes, No. And she's like, I don't understand that. So there was this whole thing they got on a big fight about it. And he's like, Why are you making such a big deal about this? She goes, Because you don't go to dinner with your ex-wife. So we talked about it, and um, I talked to both of them about it. I met them one night, and um I took his side. I said, I don't see, you know, and he said, I I concede to her because then when I need something, she's more likely to give it to me. Right? So he's like, if it's no sweat off my back, what do I care? I'll just do what you know. She wants to switch days and it's not impacting us, fine, we'll switch days. But then when I want to switch switch for something big, she's more willing to switch. And so, yeah, so so anyway, she says um she says all that to him, and we're talking, and I took his side and I said, you know, I don't understand what the big deal is. If you're not worried about something happening, I don't understand why it's a problem. It's a business meeting, is how I put it. And he's like, Yeah, that's right. It's a business meeting. That's all it is, it's a business meeting. And she's like, Well, it's just she's trying to control everything. He goes, but I don't care. He goes, Um, and this is the way he described it. He said that she's playing chess and I'm playing checkers. I'm sorry, she's playing chess, checkers, excuse me. I'm playing chess while she's playing checkers. In other words, I'm strategizing and she's just maneuvering. And he that's what he said. And and I'm like, yeah, so it's a business meeting. And you know, his his girlfriend was like, just wasn't happy or satisfied with my answer. I guess, you know, they also wanted my opinion because I'm a therapist, you know, they figured it was a little different than just asking some other dude's opinion. So anyway, I come home and I tell Karina about the situation, and I'm like, and she goes, So what'd you say? And I told her, and she goes, What? With a little snark in the tone.

SPEAKER_00

I did.

SPEAKER_01

I completely disagree.

SPEAKER_00

So what did what was your and I did I would so I was just listening, and the minute you said, you know, so like if she wants something, then I sort of know, well, I then I can ask her because I have some in the bank or whatever, right? However you described it. And if Oh, right, he was making deposits, like again, so that way when I want something, you know, I so when I heard that with my experiences and with my past relationship, and also um being trauma-informed, immediately, you know, the siren went off in my head, this red flag, I was like, that's manipulation right there. So I I said, absolutely not. I said, this is something that could be done over the phone. And I said, This, it sounds to me, and again, I wasn't there, I don't know these people, never met them, but I said it sounds to me like she is trying to manipulate her ex-husband into saying, we gotta go out for dinner because this is very important to talk about these children, and had nothing to do with, oh, she wants him, that's not what I felt like, or she wants him, or she wants him back, or whatever, he's in a happy relationship, that wasn't gonna happen. But it's manipulation. So when you were two adults, and especially with the background I have with trauma and control and manipulation, when you're two adults and there is one of you that are playing this cat and mouse game, right? Especially when it comes to children, you using the children, you saying, Oh, it's for the children, this discussion could have been done over the phone very easily. And then my second point was his current girlfriend does not like that. And it's not because she thinks he has feelings for her or whatever. She's just like, This is not what you do, right? I don't agree that this is what you do. So it is, and I said if he agrees to that too, if he says, sure, let's go out for dinner, and you have to sit through, we all know how long Dana takes before food comes and whatever. You're gonna sit there and sort of be like this prisoner in your chair until she's done talking, right? It is just it could be very uncomfortable, it could be very heated, it can be very strange, and it's just a way to manipulate. And I also said, if I I asked you, I said, did they have, you know, before him meeting this new girlfriend, before moving in, did he have a good relationship with the ex-wife? With it, was this something they did on a on a regular basis? Did they go out for dinner? Did they talk about children? They are absolutely exes out there, right? They've been divorced, they're just not together anymore. That can do that. They can go out for dinner together, they can go on vacation together, they might have new spouses, new whatever, right? Significant others, and and there's no love, it's not they don't want each other anymore, but they can be cordial, they can do that together. And you said to me, you said no, no. She's always been a little manipulating. So again, you confirm that his ex-wife is manipulating.

SPEAKER_01

So that was he knows that, and he's but to him, okay. I'll let her think she's manipulating me, but I know what she's doing, she's not manipulating me.

SPEAKER_00

So how does she know? How does he know she's not manipulating him?

SPEAKER_01

Because he's he's not gonna allow her to do get him to do something he doesn't want to do, right? He's gonna give give her this so that he again makes another deposit in the accounts so he has funds to withdraw from. And we her and I got into a debate about it, meaning Karina and I. Yeah, we and we had to agree to this agree. Yeah, I saw her point, I did, but I still I don't see it as a big deal.

SPEAKER_00

But share what you said after because then your friend called you again and said, Oh, this is what happened. So, what did the ex-wife say? She couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, right. The ex-wife, oh yes, you're right. So the ex-wife canceled dinner, well, didn't bring it up, then then cancel canceled it, then didn't bring it up to do again. Hasn't come up. He said he's not gonna bring it up, it still has not happened.

SPEAKER_03

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01

She said that maybe we'll have to do it in the summer, so obviously it's not that important. And what I said to him is uh whatever time she picks, I wouldn't be available even if you are.

SPEAKER_03

There you go.

SPEAKER_01

You know, it's almost like this game, like if you can't make time for me for a but again, like a date, right? Then I'm not gonna be available to you, right? I've had women play that one with me.

SPEAKER_00

So that is for me, that's how I look at it, it is manipulation, right? It is so we were this was so important, she made it sound so important.

SPEAKER_01

But even if it is, like, see, this is where I guess I don't know, I'm thinking like a guy, maybe, but even if it is, she could think whatever she wants. I don't care because I'm not being manipulated. I know what she's up to. I'm playing her game, I'm just beating her at it.

SPEAKER_00

But for me, this has so much to do with boundaries, right? It's like for me, this is just the stance I take. If uh if I had a relationship with my ex where we were cordial, we were friendly, we go on vacation together, we maybe we have holidays together, very different story, right? And that is not what was happening either for me or for this friend of yours, right? It was like, I know she's manipulating. So he is choosing to keep himself in a situation where he's being manipulated, he's manipulating her, it's this back and forth. It is just not healthy, it's not healthy for him as a person, it's not healthy for his new relationship, right? It is like, let's just all be adults, right? If you can communicate about your children, absolutely, that's the healthiest way to do it, right? But you can do that over the phone and respecting your new partner that says, I just I don't think that's necessary. I don't like that. Well, that was my point.

SPEAKER_01

And I will absolutely agree it's not necessary, but I also understand that concessions are made, especially when your your partner is extremely unhealthy, which his partner sounds like she might be. Yeah. Um, and you know, I watch my sister make a lot of concessions with her ex, which I don't always agree with all of them, but she she does, and the reason she does is because she wants to make sure that they continue to co-parent. So show me concessions she's not exactly comfortable with, but it she feels it's for the overall good of her children and and their ability to co-parent them as they go into adulthood.

SPEAKER_00

The more you make concessions with someone who is not healthy and who's someone who does not have the children's best interests at heart necessarily, the more they're going to keep doing that over and over and over again, right? So it is it is again setting boundaries and saying, We can we can talk, I would love to talk to you about our children, that's very important, but we can do that over the phone, right? Right, to stop that whole back and forth and and I want to be very clear, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01

This is something that can be done over the phone. We were talking about this idea of okay, so what's the best way to achieve my overall objective? And you've made some very good points even today. There's there's been some like more nuanced points you've made than when we first had our conversation. Um and it's probably caused me to weaken my stance. Um I still I still hold to it. By the way, we would love to hear comments. Uh you know, if if you watch this podcast, what where do you guys fall on this, right? What side of this dilemma do you fall on with my friend?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Um, do you think it's better to just concede minimal point, minimal things, at least in his perspective, in order to help him to get things more things he wants when he needs them, as far as time with his son or whatever it may be? Or is it really important to really have that firm boundary because not to allow the manipulation is what you're saying, even though you understand what's going on and you're trying, you know, in the way I'm presenting it, use that momentum for for further you, you know, for further favors or whatever you might need in the future. And you're excuse me, um, you're saying that you know we don't and when you look at it from that perspective, you never want to allow manipulation. No, and so if I were to talk about boundaries, you don't want to be wishy-washy on your boundaries. So now I'm still leaning towards my side, but you've definitely I got you thinking. You definitely have, and the idea of us presenting it to you guys is for the same thing for you, is to get you thinking. Yeah, I don't know if it's not necessarily right or a wrong answer, it's what it's what your thoughts are. 100% and everybody has their own situation and how it works best for them.

SPEAKER_00

So let us know. We would love to know. We love discussions, and we'll read all of your comments. And please, this would help us greatly if you would give us a five five-star rating and a review. And don't forget to hit the follow button. You're gonna find that on the upper right-hand corner. There's three little dots. Click on that, click follow so you never miss an episode. And thank you guys for being here.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, and if you have any other episodes you'd like us to do that are more specific on boundaries, please place those below and keep talking. Keep talking. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Bye.

SPEAKER_01

Bye.