Crave To Connect | Building Better Relationships

Forgiveness | Crave To Connect | Ep11

• Karina and Michael • Season 1 • Episode 11

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0:00 | 57:09

Crave To Connect is a candid, honest, and sometimes hilarious conversation about the messy realities of relationships.Hosted by Karina Paxton, a certified clinical EFT practitioner, and a trauma informed coach, and...

Michael Calderon, a licensed clinical social worker (LSCW) and a licensed clinical alcohol and drug counselor (LCADC) specializing in mental health, addiction, and relationship dynamics

The goal is simple: Real conversations about real life and real real relationships.

With their unique backgrounds in trauma recovery, therapy, and emotional healing, Karina and Michael bring two different perspectives to topics like toxic relationships, healing, personal growth, and understanding human behavior. 

Expect relaxed conversations, unexpected insights, and the occasional awkward moment, because that’s what real conversations look like.

Pull up a chair, get comfortable, and join the conversation.


To get in touch:

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https://www.instagram.com/liveyourlife.coach?igsh=dHJpcm1zZmQ3c3Ex&utm_source=qr

Website:

https://linktr.ee/liveyourlife.coach

Book a Call:

https://calendly.com/liveyourlife-coach/30-minute-discovery-call-helena-guest

Michael Calderon:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/michael-calderon-hackettstown-nj/1044394


SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Crave to Connect with your hosts Karina, the recovering men hater, and Mike, the former emotionally unavailable therapist. Sit back, get comfortable, and relax. Our whole vibe with this podcast is to casually dive into all the messy, hilarious, and sometimes confusing parts of relationships. Whether it's with yourself, all the humans, no pressure, just good chats, and maybe some awkward moments. Today we are going to talk about forgiveness and amends.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, there's a difference. Not everyone really knows quite what the difference is.

SPEAKER_00

We had a really interesting conversation about that the other day. And um, and you were like, We should we should do that on our podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we should.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, we should stop and uh Yeah, you said we should stop, and I was like, I I like that. We have some really interesting debates, right?

SPEAKER_01

You and I we did not disagree, we did not really agree. I mean, it wasn't uh a big thing, but we disagreed about what what about for some things about forgiveness. So uh it was an interesting and uh it was definitely uh a little bit of emotion getting in there, not not bad emotion, but some emotion talking about it. So yeah. Um yeah, so where do we start? Do we start which one should we start with?

SPEAKER_00

I will maybe we can start with um the quote that I found to Oprah. People that know me out there know I'm a big, huge Oprah Oprah fan, and I actually got to see her live recording a podcast episode in New York City a couple months ago. That was like incredible. Yeah, she's just as incredible in real life as she is behind this behind the screen, so she's amazing. So this is a quote that she I think she came up with that years ago, and she says, forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past could have been any different. I'll say that again. Forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past could have been any different. So she also she goes on to say that it's not condoning the bad behavior that happened, no matter what happened to you, whether this was your childhood. And for me, that helped me really release a lot from my childhood with my parents for sure, because that's where it all started for me, right? So understanding that to forgive that forgive that hope that my childhood could have been any different, right? Like giving up the hope that my dad would have stopped drinking, that my mother wouldn't have continued being passive aggressive, and then turn into a raging, a raging person, a raging mother, right? It's like forgiving that released a lot in me. So for me, and I think that's where we disagreed a little bit, was that for me, you can forgive. So for and I call that radical acceptance too. It's like having that radical acceptance that this was my childhood, this was my life. Do I wish it would have been any different? Yeah, but it wasn't. So giving up the hope that, oh my God, and I God, I did that for years. Like I think I talked about that before. I would see families in the supermarket, and I would dream that I was that girl, and I would imagine that her life was a hundred times easier and better than mine.

SPEAKER_01

But I did that sometimes as a kid.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but understanding that that radical acceptance of that was my childhood. This is these were my parents, are my parents. This is how I lived, this is how I grew up, this is what happened for me, not to me. I used to always say that's happened to me, this is horrible, and now I have to deal with it, or whatever. It's like it happened for me in order for me to just wake up, realize what it was that I had to heal within myself, right? So whatever happens to us, especially in childhood, it's not our fault. It's not anything that we did to cause. We didn't cause this to happen. We didn't want to have parents that were not present or not engaging for whatever reason, right? But it is our responsibility to heal ourselves now that we know better and we'll be older.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah, nothing, excuse me, nothing from childhood is is our fault. We're children. Um I truly I completely and truly agree with you. Um we're sort of like uh, you know, these blank canvases, as they say, kids have temperaments, but still um we get our values and our behaviors and all those things from our parents and the people that are influential around us. So when we're abused or mistreated or or we are, you know, somehow um present for a trauma or something accidentally happens to us, it it impacts our growth, how we develop, it changes our neuropathways and our brains, and 100%. And so we're not responsible as kids, but we are left with the task of healing, as you said. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, and so then it's interesting because what's the difference between forgiveness and then amends, right? Because people somebody said somebody does somebody something to somebody, and it's like, oh Karina, please forgive me. And they're mixing up two things when they do that. Um, because forgiveness is about the victim, the person who was done to. They can choose to forgive the perpetrator. Um the perpetrator, in my opinion, doesn't really get to ask for forgiveness. I mean, they can, but it's still their job is how do I make up for what happened, right? And we're it all depends on what we're talking about. I mean, if I'm late picking you up, maybe I need to make up for it, but probably not, right? It's it's like I'm really sorry, I got tired of in traffic, and it's over. But something big where somebody's victimized, yeah, there's a need to help. I look at amends as what do I need to do to help the person heal that I hurt?

SPEAKER_00

So, do you want to clarify how you find how you see the difference between forgiveness and amends? What's the difference to you?

SPEAKER_01

So, to me, I see forgiveness as the victim deciding to forgive the perpetrator, not condone what they did, not forget about it, but they're gonna decide that you know what, I'm gonna break that negative, that angry bond with this person, and I am going to forgive them for what they did. I'm gonna move on in my life, and I'm gonna choose to find a way to heal from it. Um, and that's my choice, and I can do that with someone who's dead, even though they're not here. I don't have to tell the person I've done it with if I forgave them. And I can, I could, I could forgive them and we can move on and have even a more, you know, a healthier relationship. Or I could say to them, I truly forgive you for what you've done, but you're so toxic that I don't care to see you anymore. And that doesn't mean I didn't forgive them.

SPEAKER_00

So and I imagine you see a lot of that when you do couples therapy, right? Like in a relationship, especially if you have just been spinning in past stuff for years, right? It's like so these couples I imagine come in and either, you know, either they both they want to be right, well, I'm right, and you're wrong, and right, and they have a really hard time forgiving because for a lot of people, and again, so that's where I come in with my with my trauma brain, and I say it's never, it's really never about what is occurring right now in the moment between two people, right? That are trying to have a relationship. It is they are triggered from something in their past, something in their childhood that they haven't healed yet, is what they're triggered by. So for them to use a word like forgiveness or make amends, it's like I can't do that because you hurt me so badly when you said this or you keep doing that, or so many times they're at odds too.

SPEAKER_01

And what happens is, you know, um the Gottmans, which is John and Judy Gottman, I believe they talk about the four horsemen when they deal talk about romantic relationships, which is uh defensiveness, contempt, stonewalling, and criticism. And, you know, when we talk about there's often when I see custom customers' clients, more often than not, there's criticism, there's contempt, which is in resentment, and so there's no forgiveness. Right. And it's constantly not feeling like you're being heard, seen, both sides. Um, and it's a fight for that recognition and wanting the other person to acknowledge that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it's it's a winless battle. You try and help them to see that that's not the way to approach this. The way to approach this is if you want to maintain this marriage and relationship, is we're on the same team. And whether my partner is or is not, what can I do to make this situation better? What can I do to make my partner's life better, despite the fact that I'm angry with them?

SPEAKER_02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01

And so when you're talking about couples, it becomes super complicated a lot of times. It can be like that with any relationship, but it does.

SPEAKER_00

And I think too, what I hear a lot is um, I have to be right, right? And again, that also stems from childhood. If you grew up in a home where you had a parent that was that would just constantly berade you and they would go on forever until everyone in the household agreed with that, you can carry that as an adult, right? And be in a really be in a in an argument, a fight, and your brain tells you, I have to be right, I have to get this other person to see my point. So they keep over-explaining themselves, and the argument just gets hotter and hotter, right? You get heated, and and when when you are in that state, right, you are literally in fight or flight. Like you can't think, you are dysregulated, and you just keep spinning in circles, the same thing over and over again, which is why, as I'm sure you see all the time, is couples fight about the same thing over and over when there's no resolution, there's no repair. And and until you get to understand is we can agree to disagree, you can have a thought and a feeling and an opinion that is so important to you, right? And I could listen to that and be like, I don't really see it that way, but accept that you have that emotion and that feeling and that belief about something, right? We can agree to disagree, but I think when you, and I was certainly like that too for years, when you don't have, when you haven't done that work, meaning when you don't know yourself as well as as you would like to, right? You have that void inside of you and it hurts. It's almost like it's like pouring salt into a wound and rubbing it in when someone says something to you and your brain fires off immediately, and you're like, oh my god, god damn it, I'm not gonna let this person get to me that way, right? So it's it's old, it's old behavior, old patterns in your neuropathways that really literally get lit up, right? When you are in an argument, and that's why they keep you keep spinning and spinning and spinning and spinning.

SPEAKER_01

And wanting to be right, and you know, Dr. Phil uh had a some great, a great uh he calls it right fighting. Right fighting, which I think I think he coined that phrase, but also um, you know, he also has a very simple way of describing it. You could be right or you could be happy, but you can't be both.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that's true.

SPEAKER_01

So if you have to be right all the time, I mean your partner's always wrong. You can't, you know, and what I always tell couples is you can't be right all the time. Even a broken watch is right twice a week a day, right? Right? So, like to give them a little metaphor there, yeah, which I may have may not stolen that from Dr. Felt too, I don't know. But um, you know, this idea in a relate any relationship, it's never good when somebody, when we're always fighting for who's right, it's really how do we work towards compromise? Because whatever your truth is, is or your perspective is your truth, my perspective is my truth. Yeah, and what I tell couples in couples therapy is and the truth is somewhere in the middle, and then I look at them, and this is exactly what I say to them. And to be honest, I don't give a fuck about the truth, right? Right, because I care about their truths, that's what I care about. Now, sometimes we need to care about the truth. If one partner says there's infidelity, other one says there isn't, okay, guys, that's black and white. Yeah, one of you is not telling the truth.

SPEAKER_00

Well, the thing, right? There's your side and my side, and then there's the truth, right? In the middle. So, like, how do you meet in the middle? But again, it's it's such a trauma response when your brain is a hundred percent sure that you constantly have to get this other person to say, I agree, oh my god, you're right. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01

But instead, what we can do is, you know, like for instance, I had a fight with my sister, a very, very bad fight, um, right around when we were still in my mom's house. And um, and I screamed at her, probably louder than I can remember screaming at somebody over the phone. So loud that my mom's neighbor, who I'm friends with, came over thinking we had a domestic violence situation in the house between us when I was yelling into the phone. Um, and that would have never occurred. But um, and I said some things and uh that I I did, you know, I was sorry about. And we met, and it was interesting we met to discuss it and to try and work through it. Um before that, I apologize. I said I want to apologize for my part, and I specifically told her what I, you know, some of the things I called her, some of the things I said. I said, I'm truly sorry for that. And you didn't deserve that, even though, um, and when I say even though I'm not, I'm just saying qualifying, not justifying, she I do have a problem with what she did and how she spoke to me, and how and I completely have a problem with her behavior to this day, but I can still own my part.

SPEAKER_00

So were you apologizing over the way you reacted to her?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yeah, right, and didn't receive one back. I did not get an apology, but that doesn't mean I can't own, and you know, it's not I'm sorry, but I'm sorry for what I what my part is and whatever that part is, right? It may be most of it, it may be only a small part of it. But in in that circumstance, I own my part, and apology is really the first step towards amends. 100%. Now I'm not looking to give my sister amends in that situation. I don't feel like I need to um because I don't feel like I harmed her. I feel like what I did was wrong, and I I said I was sorry if I felt like she needed more for me to heal from that, if I was that cruel, then I would try and give it to her. I don't see that in this situation. But um first step is apologizing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then where do you go from there?

SPEAKER_00

Is the next is where and I think that's such an interesting example because your sister did not say to you, Oh my gosh, I forgive you, or you know, and she didn't come to you and say, Oh, I apologize that I acted that way. It wasn't about that for you. You it sounds like you just wanted to get this out of your body and say, What I the way I responded to you was not right, and I want to say that out loud, despite what she was going to come back and say to you.

SPEAKER_01

Well, what I had hoped was that we could talk about resentments we've had since childhood that were popping up to and really get towards some resolution between, and it was also some things we were kids. Well, that's what I was hoping to do in that situation, but that included owning my part, completely owning my part.

SPEAKER_02

Sure.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, we didn't do that.

SPEAKER_02

No.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, my sister and I are we still have a relationship, but it's damaged, and um, I wish we had, maybe we will in the future, but we didn't that night. And um, but you know, so I did have a more of a plan than that, and I did hope she would own some things, but she didn't.

SPEAKER_00

But see, this just also goes to show, like I always say, right? We you we can't control the people, we can't control the people around you. So you might have had that intention and that hope that by you opening up and apologizing on whatever you said, I'm sorry, I raised my voice, whatever it was, hoping that she would have come to the table with her part and been like, well, here's my part, but that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_01

And as I think about it, I think that process started on the phone before we met. When we met, I brought up things that had hurt me, and there was a lot of defensiveness and no not a lot of resolution.

SPEAKER_00

But see, for me, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. You didn't, but for me, when so I call that I call that repair, right? So for me, when I have done, I had a I had a thing with my daughter just a couple of days ago, and my reaction was not right. And I thought about it, and I was in the bathroom, and I came out to her, and I've gotten really good at doing that. And I said to her, Look, I said, I just I said I want to explain myself. I this is how I felt in my body when this happened. I said, it really has nothing to do with you, but it probably came across like I was mad at you, like it was your fault. And I really apologize if that's what it felt like to you. But this is something that I was excited about. This I had myself all geared up, I was nervous about it, and then it didn't happen. And to me, that is for I've never, my mother or father would never do that to me, but that is something I've worked really hard on doing over the years. So it's a little selfish too, because for me, it gives me a release too that I have explained myself the best I could, right? I have asked her, not please forgive me, but it's just this is how I felt, right? Right. And then it's up to her whether or not she's gonna look at me and be like, oh, that's okay, or whether she's gonna be like, I'm still upset. And I always want to hear it. I always say, please tell me.

SPEAKER_01

She's allowed to still be upset.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, 100%. So, but my point is when you when you sort of when you want to make amends, if you want to call it that a repair, it's also a little selfish because you want to release that from your body. But I also want to make sure that the person I love hears it, so the person can be like, oh, that's right. It's it's a sort of a resolution at the end whether or not they are going to forgive you or accept it or whatever.

SPEAKER_01

But it's keeping that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but it's it's definitely a release for me when I get to say that out loud to her and I and I notice the face, right? Her face softens, her body softens, and I say, Is there anything you want to tell me? Is there anything you want to say back to me? And she goes, No. And sometimes there is, right? So it's just it's it's and again, my intention is not for her to be like, Oh my god, I totally forgive you. It has nothing to do with that. It's just I want to say this out loud to you.

SPEAKER_01

And I think it's interesting. I think when people are being more selfish about it, it's I think some people get amended, that's where amends and forgiveness get mixed up, and I'll kind of do a little definition here or that. But um most people who are selfish about it, not everyone who does this is, but they'll say, Please forgive me.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, they need that.

SPEAKER_01

And it and it's like again, forgiveness isn't about you as the perpetrator, forgiveness is a choice by the victim. Yeah. But the perpetrator also has a responsibility depending on what it is, right? If I'm if I'm a couple minutes late because of traffic, probably just an apology is enough amends for that, right? But if I've done something else, or so let's just say I don't want to put myself out there like this, but let's say in a relationship, someone cheats on somebody, I wouldn't do that. But and now if they're going to heal this relationship in any way, there is a ton of amends that must be made by the person who was unfaithful in the relationship. And all kinds of things that might involve allowing their person their partner to attract them. I mean, all you know, whatever is decided amongst the couple. But um I think so, yes, I'm sure you felt better, but also what you're doing is you're you're apologizing in an authentic way. You're explaining it, and that might be the amend she needs. Yeah, it helps you to feel better, but it helps you to feel better because you know you hurt her.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And whereas other people might hurt people and not care or not know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And without any attachment to the outcome, right? So I don't say it in the hope. I mean, of course, I hope that she's gonna hear me, but I don't, I don't need that back from her. However, she wants to feel it's totally up to her.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So I I looked it up on AI. It was kind of this forgiveness versus amends, and it spit out some interesting, very good stuff, I think. It says forgiveness is an internal process that allows you to let go of resentment. Amends um involves taking action to repair the harm caused to someone else. Forgiveness can occur without the other person's involvement or acknowledgement.

SPEAKER_02

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Amen requires uh communication and often a willingness from both parties to engage. Um forgiveness is about personal healing and emotional release.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Amends focuses on restoring trust and relation in relationships through accountability. So the amends is being accountable.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right? And we can get a little bit, we can go a little further into what each thing is. Should we start with forgiveness?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

A little deeper. Okay, so as we said, the first part of forgiveness is the apology. So or I'm sorry, the first part of not a forgiveness amends is the apology. But so when it comes to forgiveness, um it's about choosing to let go of those feelings and thoughts. And it doesn't mean that what the person did was okay, but you're choosing to release yourself from it, right? Whether it's through radical acceptance or choosing to say I forgive you, and moving on. And there's been studies that have shown that people experience better health outcomes when they're able to forgive others, however, we want to define that, whether it's through to talk about chronic inflammation, anxiety, um heart issues. Um this isn't the one I wanted, is it? Okay. Um so um I don't know. I know you had a different take on it. I got lost in my thoughts. Forgive me there for a minute.

SPEAKER_02

Um I forgive you.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. I know I'm asking for forgiveness, right? Um, but I know this is what we had spoken about. It sounds to me like part of what you consider forgiveness is having that radical acceptance. And that doesn't mean that you forgive, but that you accept what's happened.

SPEAKER_00

So um my cat is lying on my papers. So I think how this came up was I was um I follow on social media, she's a therapist, and she is also a narcissistic abuse specialist. Her name is Dr. Romani. Some of you might have known her out there, and um, she has a podcast and she has a million YouTube channels. And when I was first starting to heal from narcissistic abuse, she was like my go-to person. And I don't believe she has experienced narcissistic abuse in a partnership, but she has had several family members that were narcissists, as far as I know. So what she says is radical, she called radical acceptance, maybe that's how I where I got that from. She calls that the ultimate boundary to have radical acceptance. She was like I said, with my family, right? My mother and father, they were who they were, and it's like radically accepting that without being like, oh my gosh, I mean my life was different. You could still feel that way, but it's accepting, it's just accepting that radical acceptance of it, it was what it was, right?

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So, what she also says is, oh, this is her quote that I wanted to say. So, what Dr. Romini says, and I think this is where you and I had that interesting conversation. So, Dr. Romani, I quote, and I'm quoting her, she says, I think that people who don't forgive definitely feel peace. I think the people who don't feel peace are the people who forgive and keep getting harmed. Healing from narcissistic abuse is individuating, becoming autonomous, and ultimately rising into your authentic self. And your authentic self may not forgive.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and that's where we had we had a definitely difference of opinion. I mean, I feel like if somebody doesn't forgive, then they are and it may not pop up in everyday life, but then they are bound to this person in a negative way. Um, when you know, if something were to come up that reminds them of that person or a situation, there's still anger attached to it often. At least that's been my experience. And once there's true forgiveness, then it doesn't, you don't have any of that attachment. Um at least that's the way it would seem. Um, but I could see how I could see it both ways, but yeah, that's where we differed on that one. I I feel like uh I try to change that, I don't want to be bonded to people who have harmed me if I can help it.

SPEAKER_00

See, I don't see it that way, right? So she also goes on to saying she forgiveness is a personal decision, and there's really no right and wrong, right? Like choosing not to forgive a specific person can sometimes be the most self-respecting choice. And she's talking about narcissistic abuse, right, trauma, all the things that we have gone through if we are in a really toxic relationship, too, right? And she calls it also it's soul hijacking, really. So when we have experienced extreme harm, and this could be from a parent too, absolutely, right? This could be from a boss, family member, anybody.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Um and she calls that soul hijacking, which I really love. There might just may not be a forgiveness for that. And she also does a lot of research, she's she's just she's so brilliant. And she also says forgiving someone who continues to repeat harmful behaviors, and that's where her experience comes in with her family members, because she's saying obviously a narcissist, a toxic person is never going to change, but she had and some family members she has decided to still keep in her life for whatever reason. Um but they continue, right, to repeat this harmful behavior to it to her. She has she's obviously a boundary queen, she's great at great rocking, all that stuff, right? But that can significantly damage the forgiver's well-being. So how I see it too is again with the radical radical acceptance, is it's not the person necessarily that I feel like, oh my God, I gotta forgive this person. It's that radical acceptance of what happened, happened, and I can't go back and change it. Right. But I also forgive myself for allowing this to happen to me for you know, as an adult, right?

SPEAKER_01

Again, when you're a child, and there is a need to forgive ourselves, like you just said, that's another form of forgiveness, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and stop blaming yourself, right? So it's and again, you are not the cause of their behavior. So if you have been a a victim of any kind of abuse, people not treating you well, it is it is not because of you.

SPEAKER_01

No, we can't cause somebody's behavior. We we we have influence with people, but they can still choose. And the way people react to us is based on their experiences, right? I mean, I know there's been times I've had reactions people I don't even know in negative ways. And I think it's most likely to me, I guess their energy did not vibe with mine, is what I'm thinking. It probably must have been, right?

SPEAKER_00

So also, and also, and I think for me that was really important is to grieve the loss, right? So when we talk about forgiveness, it's it's it's a it's really a death, right? So this can again be a family member, this could be a spouse, it could be anybody. It's a death of the relationship that you wish you had, or the relationship that you thought you had at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01

This person we're talking about somebody who's been toxic over time in your life. Because I mean, there could be one incident where it may not be that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but if we're talking about someone, right, who has just been, who is just a toxic person in your life. And again, this could be a parent, right? This could be a parent too. Um, this could be an intimate relationship, right? It's and I think that's so important too to say, because again, going back to your point, is oh, I forgive this person, I let that person go. There's still a grief often, right, that is connected to that. The grief, and same with my parents, there was definitely a grief that even though I've come to this point after many years of therapy, to radically accept that this was the childhood I had, not the child that I thought that I wanted, right? It's a death because it was not anything I was gonna do.

SPEAKER_01

Through the process, I think, yeah. Because when I when I forgive, I I don't think I have any more grief. I've had that part already. The forgiveness from I think in my mind is the final piece, right? I've gone through all of that. I might even realize this person's not gonna change or they're not capable of changing more than they have or are. And I've grieved along that way, of the path of for me, what I consider to be my path of forgiveness. And then once I get to the end of that, that's when I've forgiven them for what they did and can look at it as okay, this person can't do any better, or I'm just not gonna allow. And and I might walk away if they're toxic. If I have a toxic person in my life and I've chosen to forgive them, I will likely walk away from them as well. I'm not gonna keep a toxic person in my life if they don't bring anything positive.

SPEAKER_00

No, we don't do that once we have once we understand that and we are aware, we're not gonna do that, right? But for me too, I just feel like grief, it's not linear. Grief is not linear. It can all of a sudden come back and hit you in the head upside down, and you're like, I thought I was over this, right? And I see that with my clients when I work with women that's been in toxic relationships. It's like they almost feel like they they shouldn't allow themselves to grief. They don't know what that feeling is in their body. They're like, they're like, why do I still feel sad inside when I see my ex interacting with interacting with their children? And it's like I see that little glimmer, that like 10% of what this person was like in our relationship. Or maybe it looks like they have changed because now all of a sudden they are smiley, they're engaging, and and that's what this person saw in the beginning. So it's a grief of my gosh, that's really what I thought our relationship was going to be like, but it wasn't. It was a facade, it was a mask, right?

SPEAKER_01

So I always Or you see them acting like that with their new partner, but again, oftentimes that's a facade and a mask in itself.

SPEAKER_00

100% that they can't keep up. But I think it's so important to understand that that even though you say, I forgive, I move on, there's still a grief that might come back. It's like a wave comes back in, and it's not because you go, Oh my god, I I made the wrong decision, I shouldn't have ended this. It's a grief that what I saw in the beginning was what I thought we were going to have together. Yes, and now we are not. So you're not grieving the person that abused you, you are grieving what you're what you thought you were going to have, the image and the future that you created with yourself. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so was there anything else you had there?

SPEAKER_00

Well, also what I really like, um, and this is Dr. Ramani says that too. I help a lot of my clients, parallel parent too. We don't call it co-parenting when you are when you're involved with a high conflict person, we call it parallel parenting because you're literally on two different tracks, right? So um, so you know, we we've ultimately we would really love to be able just to cut a toxic person out of our life if we can, right? But what if it's a parent, right? What if it's a boss and you have decided to keep them in your life? So it's almost like you're carrying an umbrella in a storm, right? Like you still get wet, even though you have an umbrella on your head because the storm is crazy, the wind is crazy, but you're no longer shocked that you're gonna get wet, right? So you know that there's a storm coming with this toxic person, and you're like, Yeah, of course I'm gonna get wet, but it doesn't surprise you anymore. Yeah, so I think for me, what I was trying to explain to you over the phone, that is what it feels like to me. It's like the radical acceptance of this was not what I thought it was going to be, and it's never ever gonna be any different. I don't feel like I necessarily have to forgive this other person. I have to give forgive myself for staying in this and for wishing and for trying to make this anything different that it wasn't. Oh, sure. So I can have peace within myself now because I have this radical acceptance that this was not what I thought it was going to be, and it's never going to be. My life is not gonna be any different. And for me, that just feels, and that's it's all individual, right? But for me, that feels so much better in my heart and my soul that I can say that, that I have this radical acceptance. It doesn't mean I necessarily have to say, oh my gosh, I forgive this person who did that to me. But I accept within myself that this is what happened, and I can have peace, and just like Dr. Ramani says, I can sleep peacefully at night without having to say that. And again, it's it's not a two-way street often, right? It is you, that's that's your inner work inside of you. When you literally get to the point where you can just say, that's it is what it is. Yeah, and I really feel okay with that. I'm not just pretending, I'm really okay with this is how I have I understand now the relationship is and it's never going to be any different. I'm good with that. I'm good with that. That's the peace I feel inside of me.

SPEAKER_01

I gotcha.

SPEAKER_00

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, great. So I have some steps towards doing what we're talking about, right? So um, when it comes to forgiving somebody, the first thing is to take an objective viewpoint of what happened, right? Try and work through it. Um, as far as this also could be for making amends, right? What happened in this situation? What do I need to apologize for if I'm the person who harmed someone? Or what is it that that was upsetting, right? Because there could be a lot of things happening. So let's get beneath the surface. What was I really upset about that happened here?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Was I really upset about somebody being late? Or, you know, but no, that was just another way that I felt disrespected by this individual, maybe, right? So now we're understanding what that is. Um also facing mixed feelings. So, like, especially when we're forgiving somebody, what we might feel, even though we were the one harmed, we might feel a sense of shame. Sure. Or we might feel like we deserve this because we have low self-esteem. And so trying to work through that and what what's my stuff and what's their stuff, right? And also, if we're making amends, again, like if we take that situation, my sister, I feel that I was mistreated, I don't like what happened, but you know, so why should I apologize for anything when I was reacting in my mind to it? But the fact is, when I take a deeper look at that and I can flesh it out, I own my part. I was out of line. It was inappropriate. I said that to her. I told her she didn't deserve it, and it's true. I I had a right to be angry, I didn't have a right to respond the way I did. Yeah, and I was angry.

SPEAKER_00

So, you know, that's one thing we get to do is control and I I really like what you said there because reacting and responding are two very different things, right? So you should you can definitely respond to anything that happens to you, but it's when we at react dispor disproportionately, which it sounds like is what you did, right? Having a big explosion, that's not who you are. But in that moment, that was your reaction to whatever it was that she said to you.

SPEAKER_01

And it wasn't just that, it was years of things that was it was snowballing. This was like the last little drop in your cup that made you just like well, the dead the death of my mom triggered a lot of the stuff that had been dormant, like a volcano, right? Right? It had been dormant for years, so dormant that I didn't know it was still there.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Until my mom passed, and then we had this this disagreement, yeah, and I went from zero to like 300.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and again, I still feel I'd have a right to be angry, but not the way I reacted. And even and then the other part is when we have shame, the way we might react. You might react angry, yeah, or which we need to take a look at that, or if we have low self-esteem, well, you know, this is what it is. You know, I'm I'm a piece of garbage and I don't really deserve better. It's like, wait, no, we're you're a person, of course you do. And trying to take a look at what's happened, and regardless, even if you were wrong, again, excuse me, if my sister were to say to herself, I was wrong, but I st but he's right, I didn't deserve that. I don't think she thought she was wrong because she didn't say so. So as far as I know, she doesn't think she was wrong. I do, yeah, and we have a difference of opinion there. Um, so the next part would be to um try to put yourself in the other person's shoes, have some empathy, right? And again, whether we're trying to forgive or we're gonna make amends, if we're forgiving, we want to try. Well, what could have triggered this, right? I know for me, if I understand where something's coming from, it helps me to have more empathy, which allows me to be more forgiving about the situation. Yeah, right. So let's say for some reason you come in and you just rip my head off verbally about something. First thing I'm thinking, that's not like you, is what happened to her today. Right? So maybe that would if and I'm what happened? Oh, well, this and well, I forgave you already. I don't even need your apology because that's so out of the ordinary for you, right? I don't even need them. I'm sorry, I just need an explanation. As soon as you tell me all these terrible things that happen, that's okay. I guess.

SPEAKER_00

You see what you did there. You didn't, and this is just a made-up scenario because this is not this didn't happen, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, not yet.

SPEAKER_00

Not yet. But but what you did there is you paused and you said what happened. You didn't get defensive and you didn't, right? And this is, I think, what happens in a lot of relationships, especially like you said, it's it's it's a snowball effect. It's like things that have happened years and years and years and upon years, right? So it's that little drop where now she comes home and she's ripping my head off, right? But you paused in this like made-up scenario and you said, What happened? instead of going, I can't believe you met what what the hell did I do? And this is how arguments happen, right? So it's also taking accountability for you responded instead of reacting in this made-up scenario, and I think that is so important to do, and it could be so hard to do in the moment, right?

SPEAKER_01

Right, and you you talk about all the time sitting with it, observing it. That's what, right? Hey, this isn't normal. What's going on? Well, this problem there must be something else happening here. Yeah, right. She's not just angry at me like this, and I don't know what's going on, or even if I know, okay, you're angry, you asked me to empty a dishwasher, I forgot, but really, this is the response. Right? So it's like, what else is happening, right? So yeah, I mean, so kind of when it comes down, but also when you're making amends and you're like, okay, what I did, if somebody did that to me, what would that feel like? Or what do I think it feels like for them if I can't imagine myself but I know their situation, what did that feel like for them, right? Yeah. If I start really yelling at somebody the way I described, I yelled at my sister, and they're a victim of domestic violence. Uh maybe I haven't had domestic violence in my life, but I can imagine what that must have felt like to them, right? How fearful that must have made them. That I especially if I get angry, people react. You know, I can be very loud and I guess intimidating. And um, you know, so I would imagine that a victim of domestic violence might have an exceptionally strong reaction, and I can then try to put myself in their shoes.

SPEAKER_00

Or even if that it was something that was the norm for this person's right childhood, right, is I was always yelled at. My mom and dad would always yell, and then they're being yelled at, right, by someone and another adult in their life, and that triggers them right back to that moment when they were kids that I was always yelled at. And then that person's nervous system gets dysregulated, and either they will yell back or they will just shut down.

SPEAKER_01

Right, they'll get super defensive, and they'll shut down. We all have different fight, flight, or freeze.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's like that's the survival mode that we learned as a kid. When someone yells at me, what do I do? Do I get equally as loud and aggressive, or do I just shut down for completely because it's too much for my nervous system?

SPEAKER_01

Right. And the next one is to uh suggestion is to write down the reasons why you would need to make amends, or again, you could do that if you want to forgive somebody. What is it that I need to forgive? Yeah, right? Because again, we want to look under the surface, or what do I need to? And there's something about writing things that can be very therapeutic. So if in the process, if in the moment that we're trying to do this, we're still feeling emotional, this can help us to get the emotions out, yeah, allow us to be more logical about the process as we go through it. Um, and then um next step is they they refer to making amends or forgiving with a clear heart, right? So working through it, it's also in this point, is when we talk about the forgiveness of oneself, right? Whether, and that can be whether we're forgiving or whether we're making amends. We think of it more with amends because in that respect, we're the perpetrator, the person doing it, right? So I need to forgive myself for whatever it was, right? Let's say I need to make amends because I bit your head off for some reason because something was bothering me. Well, I have to let myself forgive myself for that, yeah, and then come to you and say. Listen, you didn't deserve that. I'm so sorry. I had a rough day. I don't want to make an excuse. It's just a reason.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Which, by the way, there are differences between reasons and excuses. And I think it's how it's presented, is really the difference.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you know, sometimes I run late with my client, and I tell my clients, look, I'm 15 minutes late today because of this, but it's not an excuse. Right. It's it's a reason, so you know, especially my clients, they know I run late. I tell them when I meet them now I do because I don't want anyone to feel disrespected. It's just that's one of the things. I'm five to ten minutes late. So, but if it's more than that, I often will tell them why and make sure that you know I'm not not trying to make an excuse. Um, it's a reason, and certainly, especially if it's longer than 50 minutes, I certainly understand if you're angry about it and we could talk about it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um except uh so when we're making amends, you want to accept your own bad behavior again, forgive yourself for it. Or also finding the radical acceptance when you're trying to forgive. And then also, you know, there might be a need, even when you're trying to forgive somebody, for to forgive yourself, right? Well, you know, whatever you might be saying to yourself. Why do I always get in these situations? Or um whether you're trying to self-blame for whatever happened, and then you know, trying to sort, well, what's my role and what's their role? But somebody who's low self-esteem, they often find a way to blame themselves in these processes and then decide what it will take for you to make up the damage that was done. This is the amends piece, right? What do I need to do? How do I make up for what I did and help? And the most important part is help them to heal. Yeah, how do I help them heal? Yeah, that's what the amends is about. Um, with forgiving, it's with forgiving, it's not about the perpetrator, it's about you. And what do I need to heal? But when you're making amends, it's if I've done something terrible to you, what can I do to make up for it? Something that you're struggling to heal from, whatever that might be.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's where that word repair comes in that I like so much because our brain does not care whether the repair happens, you know, years after whatever it was that was fractured in that moment, right? If we, as the person who have hurt them for whatever reason is, if we come in, if we come back to that, and you can even do that with a client, and I'll give you an example in a minute. But if when we come back and say, and again, we take full accountability for what happens, and that's all the brain needs is that repair. You know, I'm very sorry. Again, it's I'm not I did this because of you. No, I am sorry that I reacted this way. I'm sorry this came out like that. This is something I'm really working on. I am truly sorry if that hurt you a lot, right? So, what I will do with my clients is a lot of them, I mean, really all of them, have a lot of trauma from their childhood, right? So, what we will do is we will literally replay a certain scenario in their childhood that has just has this lasting effect, right? Like in a tapping session, all of a sudden something will pop up and they'll say, This reminds me of when I was 10 and my father did this and whatever. I will literally, as we're tapping, so they're in their body, in in their unconscious mind, we will literally go through the scenario with them and I'll say, What would you have wanted? What did you need, your mother or your father do in that moment? And in that moment, they're repairing their inner child by saying, I wish that she just would have hugged me. I wish she would have said, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. This is not right. And you see, often there's tears, but you see that release in their body is that they have just reparented their inner child. We can't go back and change what happened, but just the fact that the outcome of their experience was different. That is what rewire our newer pathways. So now when she when this client thinks back of that incident, she's no longer going to have that heightened response. It's just gonna be neutral, more likely happened. It hasn't gone away. But now when I think about it, because there was repair done to my brain, my brain was able to repair that episode that happened, and not even from the perpetrator or the person who did it, but I was able to repair that for myself. And that's what I call inner child healing, and it is just so incredibly powerful. And that is how we can move on, right, in our life without having these like visual reactions to things that pops up in relationship, right? Um, with our partner, with our children, because there's really nobody in life that that triggers you more than your children and your intimate partner, right? That really is that's really what comes up all the time. And it's when you are able to repair that parents. But certainly your parents too. Absolutely, those three. Yeah. So when you're able to repair that within yourself, you are going to have a neutral reaction to it, right? So instead of reacting, you can respond to what happened, right? Or what I like to do with you a lot too is I say, you know what, that reminded me of what happened in my past. So that reminded me with that has nothing to do with the original.

SPEAKER_01

And that's where the forgiveness, you know, that's how I define the forgiveness, which you talk about as radical acceptance in some ways, but yeah. So then when it comes to making amends, the interesting thing is the most important part of amends is you don't force amends on somebody. No. If somebody doesn't want to talk to you, you don't, then you don't get to do that. You know, this is step nine in AA. Um, when you go through the steps, step nine is making amends. And if anyone's ever seen this show, um, oh no, I'm blanking out now. Come on, that's not fair. What? Um it was a show where uh My Name is Earl. It's called My Name is Earl.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And the whole show, he has a list of people he needs to make amends with. And he goes and seeks them out to make amends, and it's a comedy about how he's making amends with all these people and what the reactions are. Uh but you know, the most important thing is we amends is when the person's willing to accept that amends. So even somebody in AA, that if the person won't accept it, we do not force it on them. That's that's causing more harm. So then what do you do? How do you work with that? And one of the things you can do is if you haven't forgiven yourself for it yet, which really it before you make amends, you should, but working on forgiving yourself, but then they also call it um where you can make an um what's it called? Uh committing um I forget what they call it, but um you can do amends by so so to speak making an altruistic gift to society, to someone else, right? So although that person won't let you make amends, maybe there is something else that you can do to make amends, right? So, like let's say you weren't there when the person needed you. Well, could I make sure I'm there for somebody else, maybe even a stranger? Maybe I'll become a big brother or a big sister and I'll make sure I'm there for a child since I wasn't there for my best friend who won't forgive me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um so that's a suggestion through some of the research we did that I hadn't thought about where if you can't personally make amends because the person doesn't want to hear it from you, wasn't isn't accepting of it or open to it, then maybe you can make amends another way, right? You can give back, you can pay forward, you know, whatever it may be, something.

SPEAKER_00

I like that a lot because I think the danger is that you try to ask for forgiveness and make amends, and your brain is waiting for this other person to say to you, you know, I forgive you. It's okay. And if that doesn't happen, you don't want to be stuck in that box and go, oh my God, so for the rest of my life, I'm gonna carry this around, right? Because again, we have no control over the other person.

SPEAKER_01

That's where the personal forgiveness goes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So that's so important. I love what you said that. Then what else can I do? Can I go out and volunteer? Can I give back in a different way? Because again, we can express, and that's the radical acceptance part, and say, the response, the reaction I had was it's was not right. I did not mean to do that. But if the other person chooses not to meet you halfway, or if the other person is gone, maybe they're not here anymore. Right, you still have that power within you to create that forgiveness so you can move on. Because the worst is to stay stuck, right? Yeah in life. And I certainly did that with my childhood to be stuck in life for so many years, just feeling that anger and resentment and bitterness and blaming other people and saying if my parents would have been different, I would have been a different person and I would have lived this amazing life. And we want to move on from that. We don't ever want to stay stuck. And again, there's no right or wrong way to do this. So we just gave you a couple of many different examples of what this could feel like.

SPEAKER_01

Well, just to throw one more thing in there, you know, my philosophy, and it's interesting when I was doing some of the research, we always do a little bit of research. It talked about asking for forgiveness, and I actually don't recommend that in amends. You make amends whether you're forgiven or not. It's really not about you feeling better. No, because when we're looking for them to forgive us, now we're making about us. It really needs to be 100% about the person you harmed. 100%, nothing about you. So whether they forgive you or not is actually in my mind should be irrelevant.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You're trying to do what you can, whether they are still going to be angry at you if they never want to see you again, to help them to heal. Um, you know, a great move. I I want to show Karina a movie, but for those of you who are around my age, a great movie that illustrates this was Flatliners, which was about some young medical students. This was when Kevin Bacon and Kiefer Sutherland were Julia Roberts, were all in, I believe, their early or mid-20s. And what they would do is they learn one of them figured out a way to kind of kill themselves but be able to bring themselves back. So they would go under and get to explore what it was like for a few minutes to be dead, and then they were brought back.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And when they came back, they brought back some of their sins or their their what they've done to harm others, and except it's now real in their life and they're living through it, and in order to end it, they have to make amends.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01

And each of them had something come back when they went under, and there was uh three of them that went under the three of them that I mentioned. There was another guy, I forgot his name, but he didn't go under. And each of them brought things back with them, and the only way they could deal with it was by making amends. Love that. Um, and so it's not about whether you're forgiven what it does for you, it's about them. And I just want to make that very clear. Um, that's what a true amends is. So, but otherwise, um, this was a very interesting conversation. This was great.

SPEAKER_00

This was great. And and maybe for some people out there, this will make you start thinking about right, your own forgiveness within yourself and people that you might have harmed, or just the way that you react instead of respond, right? So please leave us comments. We would love to read what you thought about this, what your feelings are about forgiveness. Do you have to forgive that person or can you have radical acceptance for what happened to you? We would love to, we would love to hear that. Absolutely. And if you and if you like this episode, please give us a five-star rating. It really helps push the podcast out so more people can hear it. And again, write us a review and make sure you follow us. Make sure you follow us, and you do that by clicking on the three dots on the upper right-hand corner, and it says follow, and you click on that. And this way you don't ever miss an episode.

SPEAKER_01

And for those of you interested, um, Corinna has referenced about her work as a life coach, so liveyourlife.coach on Instagram. Um, you can see she has tons of great short videos and content on her Instagram as well. Um, and you can join her email, she'll email you some things that are very helpful tools and assessments, all kinds of things. So, thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for listening and keep talking.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely keep talking.

SPEAKER_00

Bye.

SPEAKER_01

Bye bye.