Crave To Connect | Building Better Relationships

Toxic Relationships | Crave To Connect | Ep13

• Karina and Michael • Season 1 • Episode 13

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Crave To Connect is a candid, honest, and sometimes hilarious conversation about the messy realities of relationships.Hosted by Karina Paxton, a certified clinical EFT practitioner, and a trauma informed coach, and...

Michael Calderon, a licensed clinical social worker (LSCW) and a licensed clinical alcohol and drug counselor (LCADC) specializing in mental health, addiction, and relationship dynamics

The goal is simple: Real conversations about real life and real real relationships.

With their unique backgrounds in trauma recovery, therapy, and emotional healing, Karina and Michael bring two different perspectives to topics like toxic relationships, healing, personal growth, and understanding human behavior. 

Expect relaxed conversations, unexpected insights, and the occasional awkward moment, because that’s what real conversations look like.

Pull up a chair, get comfortable, and join the conversation.


To get in touch:

Instagram: 

https://www.instagram.com/liveyourlife.coach?igsh=dHJpcm1zZmQ3c3Ex&utm_source=qr

Website:

https://linktr.ee/liveyourlife.coach

Book a Call:

https://calendly.com/liveyourlife-coach/30-minute-discovery-call-helena-guest

Michael Calderon:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/michael-calderon-hackettstown-nj/1044394


SPEAKER_01

Welcome to Crave to Connect with your host Karina, the recovering men hater, and Mike, the former emotionally unavailable therapist. Sit back, get comfortable, and relax. Our whole vibe with this podcast is to casually dive into all the messy, hilarious, and sometimes confusing parts of relationships. Whether it's with yourself, all the humans, no pressure, just good chats, and maybe some awkward moments. Today we are going to discuss toxic relationships.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, we're gonna focus on family, friendships, and intimate or romantic well, every relationship's inner intimate, but um that we're discussing about romantic relationships, so that's where our focus will be. But we're gonna start off with um talking about, I guess, friendship. Do we say?

SPEAKER_01

You know, toxic relationships can apply to everything, and I feel like that's something that we don't talk enough about. Like, what does it really mean to be in a toxic relationship? And that could be a friendship, it could be what a family member, right? It could be anyone really in your life.

SPEAKER_00

It could be at work, well that might be that's topic for another time, maybe, because there's other factors, but yeah, it can be anything, it could be a person that you're partnered with on the PTO.

SPEAKER_01

There's a there's a lot of those kind of mothers, yeah. Speak speaking from experience, I am not on the PTO and I never will because of that toxic energy there is, right? Um, I want to stay as far away from toxicity as I possibly can.

SPEAKER_00

And in my life, especially as I went bad moms, the movie exactly like exactly like bad moms.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's it's like unbelievable. I have stories. Uh but when I went through my divorce and I started my healing journey, that's really one of the first things I did. And I didn't even know I was doing it consciously. It was just all of a sudden, I just had this repulsion to everyone around me that made me feel drained, exhausted, sad, like not like myself. And I realized I don't want this in my life. Like I'm allowing this to happen. I'm allowing these people to be present in my life, and I'm spending my energy trying to engage with them, but it doesn't make me feel good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I agree. In fact, um you know, I think what you just said was uh quite a few of the indicators of a toxic relationship as far as the way it makes you feel.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about what are the signs, some of the signs of a toxic relationship. It could be just like I said, you feel emotionally drained after being around this person.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Right? Your relationship is one-sided. I could certainly mean that's that was most of my relationship.

SPEAKER_00

And this could be people, right? It could be a group of friends we're referring to, not just one. Because as I think about it, you know, like I think of a group of friends, even, right? If I leave the group of friends, then I feel this way.

SPEAKER_01

So absolutely, it could be. Um, and you know, I have a lot of clients who have those kind of relationships with their parents too. It's like their mother, right? Their mother will never call them. I have a mother like that too, will never call me, but expects me to call her and check up on her, and then will make me try, try to make me feel bad. Well, I haven't heard from you in X amount of time.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so that's that's one-sided, right? Um, a toxic person might really mock or like disregard you and your values, what you bring into a relationship.

SPEAKER_00

Right, that might make you feel bad about things that are important to you. Yeah, make fun of you for feeling a certain way or being sensitive about anything.

SPEAKER_01

Right. You were so sensitive. That was one of the things I always used to hear. And then, and I used to do this too, like just keep forgiving this person and being like, oh, they're having a bad day, very sad, they're so stressed, like their husband is an asshole, but they never change, right? You keep thinking, oh, one day we're gonna have a different kind of conversation that's actually gonna be about me too.

SPEAKER_00

But it just like never happens, yeah, or or don't care enough to do that. But yeah, when we don't have the boundaries with people, which is some of what we're talking about with what you just said, people take that for granted, they take you for granted. And if you are rewarding bad behavior, you'll get more of it. And if you don't say anything about bad behavior, you're actually rewarding it.

SPEAKER_01

You are, yeah. Because I write that's I I I didn't make this up, but you teach other people how you want to be treated. Yes, right. So just like you said, if you keep just allowing this to happen, this person is going to keep doing that over and over again. And um feeling anxious before a meeting or talking to them, I can so relate to that. Like whenever my phone would ring or we get a text from these specific people, toxic people in my life, my heart would start racing and I would be like, Oh my god, I don't want to pick up the phone.

unknown

I don't.

SPEAKER_01

But if I don't pick up the phone, this person is gonna be pissed off and they're gonna keep calling me. And like it it's just it's just it's a horrible draining feeling.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yep. Or just if I pick it up, what are they gonna want from me? Right. Um and so you you're not comfortable not picking up, you're not comfortable picking it up, it's a terrible place to be.

SPEAKER_01

It's a terri, it's a terrible feeling. So these people, toxic people in your life, are just overly negative and pessimistic about everything, right? Everything is a big deal. It doesn't matter what it is, you know that whenever you do talk to them or you meet with them, there's just going to be a laundry list of stuff that are just horrible and negative and what they've been through and how they feel. It's just it's always negative.

SPEAKER_00

And and they're a victim, right? Then oftentimes those same people, they're never accountable. It's always someone else's fault. They feel this way, someone else's fault, or something's fault. They didn't that they were overlooked, or they didn't get what they wanted, or things didn't go their way, and it's poor me. Yeah, and they basically want you to join them in in this and validate them in this pity that they're having, and that it's not their fault.

SPEAKER_01

Right. It's never their fault. They want validation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they want you to validate them and make them feel like it's oh my god, you're right. This always happens to you. I don't know why. You poor you oh, poor person, you poor thing.

SPEAKER_01

I used to be so good at that, and I remember when I was in that era of my life, I remember that it came to a point where my brain, as I was saying it out loud, I would say, you know what, it's so unfair. Like, I can't believe that happened to you. And all of a sudden my brain would start to say, Wait, doesn't this always happen? It's almost like my brain was trying to put this together, but because I was such a people policer, I would never say that out loud to the person. Like, like maybe you are the common denominator, or maybe you keep repeating the same. I I would not ever say that.

SPEAKER_00

And even and then even like when you're hearing the same thing from them, okay, so why do I always hear the same thing? What am what is it that I'm doing that's getting them to right? Am I validating this this negativity? Like, what's going on? So at some point, when you know, if all of your friends feel toxic, well, maybe you need to look within yourself and see why do I feel that way? Because either I have made some terrible choices, or maybe there's something toxic about me.

SPEAKER_01

Right. That's a really good point. Why are you attracting that? Why, why are you attracting those kind of people? Why are these the only kind of people that are in your life? Right? That's that's a really good, really good question. Um, a toxic person will compete with you instead of celebrating. So no matter what you do, they'll be like, Well, you know, last week, like I did X, Y, and C, or you know, when I did that, this is what I achieved. It's they can never just celebrate and be like, oh my gosh, good job. I'm so happy for you.

SPEAKER_00

I have a good quick story about this. I so I graduated with my master's degree to become a social worker, and I'm specializing in addiction. My cousin Tori graduated the same time with her master's degree in in nursing. So we kind of decided to have a celebration together. Her mother, which is my Aunt Vicky, um, instead of celebrating me, was knocking me down and telling me how she could be, you know, she used to be a drug counselor, drug counselor, which back in the 70s, all you needed to be was in recovery from addiction in order to be a counselor, which by the way, she's not in recovery right now. Um, and telling me how she could do that, and I'm like, well, you can't, it's not the same as it used to be. Trying to be very soft in how I told her, like, you have to have what I have, which is a master's degree training. And they don't, they found that that was not the best way to do it. She's arguing with me, and she's like, I said, okay, fine, then go do it, you know. But like, why are we having this conversation? Aren't we? This is a party to celebrate achievement, and yet I'm having this competition with you about it that I don't care to have.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So they're very interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely draining, right? You also might feel like you can't be yourself around these people, that you have to put on a mask, you have to pretend that you are a different person, maybe similar to them, right? I I used to be, if being a chameleon was a job, I would do really well with that. And the drop of a hat, I could, I could chameleon myself around the people that were toxic because they uh it was so drained. I couldn't be myself because I felt so drained. So I would literally mimic them. I might start to speak like them and use words or phrases that they used in order to feel like maybe there's a connection here. But deep inside, I was just completely drained and exhausted. Like I couldn't wait to get off the phone, I couldn't wait to like leave or go home, right? And I didn't even know that that was not what you were supposed to feel.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, growing up, I mean my friend group did they they very openly promoted that. And you know, I grew up in the late, I was in high school in the late 80s. I graduated in 90, and you know, that's when Guidos were a thing. I guess they sort of are again since the Jersey Shore, but you know, Guidos dressed a particular way, they acted a particular way, and I didn't do all those things, so I was kind of groomed into how to behave while I became one. Um, but you know, back then it was you had to wear the Z Cavaricis, which were you know baggy pants that you would like pinch at the bottom and cuff and had to have reebox and you couldn't fasten the velcro that had to stay open no matter what color they were, usually preferably black.

SPEAKER_01

I'm so sorry I missed that.

SPEAKER_00

Had to have a particular haircut, had to mullet going with the bangs.

SPEAKER_01

And um that I didn't know you back then.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know, maybe you wouldn't have liked me.

SPEAKER_01

No, I was being sarcastic, yeah. I don't know about it.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, uh, you know, it was uh for the time, I guess, but it was cool for the time, yes. You know, but it was always uncomfortable to me, but yet I felt in order to fit in with this group, I needed to do these things, and they became my best friends. And in fact, um I still I don't keep in touch with all of them. There was uh originally like six, there was like six of us, and I am still in touch with and fairly close with um two or two or three of them. So, you know, uh one of which is my best friend, actually. Um we we're still very close, best friends.

SPEAKER_01

So that's great, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

But it wasn't the way we came together, it was obviously kind of a negative thing, and I was made to feel if I didn't conform that I wasn't gonna be accepted.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I I can so relate to that too. So a toxic person in your life might constantly just break your trust, and they love to gossip about you to other people, like behind your back.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and you know, if we're talking about intimate relationships, um they still might gossip, but rather than gossip, they might have there might be infidelity, or they'll break your trust where they'll tell you they're not gonna do something, and they will, or they're keeping secrets from you. But yeah, that's that's a horrible thing in a relationship, and that's something like we see with kids a lot growing up.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um this idea of gossip and talking on each other's back to trying to advance socially, and and like girls are brutal with the girl on girl crime on that one. Oh boy, it's girls are horrible. Guys guys aren't guys gossip some, but not it's not the same. And and then how girls handle it is brutal too. Yeah, we could do a whole podcast on that, probably.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, yeah, but yeah, it's it's um it's whenever there's gossip, talking behind someone's back. I mean, look, sometimes we say things about somebody just we confide in because we need to get it off our chest or something, and that's okay, but it's when we kind of just randomly talk about these things, or you know, if someone shares something with us and then we violate that trust. Yeah, and it's just not okay.

SPEAKER_01

No. I used to be really good at saying, just don't tell, don't tell this person that I told you this. That that just means it should never come out of my mouth. Right. Right? That's a horrible feeling. I will never ever do that to this day. Now I don't I don't ever share something with other people if I'm like, just don't mention that. It's like that's private. What you're talking about with this other person, that is private, right? That's a hor that's a horrible feeling.

SPEAKER_00

Sometimes I'll share something about myself and I will intentionally tell somebody, you know, to please not say anything that way. They can't tell me they don't know, but I don't feel a need to do that with the people closest to me. I would never say that to you.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, right? No. People that you trust, you don't have to say that to. People that are in your life, and I like to say that has a seat at your table, will never ever take private information that you share and and tell anyone else. They just a horrible thing. And when you're in a toxic relationship, you really feel stuck. You feel stuck, you don't feel like you're growing, you don't feel like you can change. And I mean, I saw that firsthand with the healing and the transformation I went through. Was people around me stayed the same, right? Because they were not going through anything significant in their life. So they stayed the same. And and I literally took my rose-colored glasses off and I saw everything so bright and clear for the first time, probably ever in my life. So the people around me, they looked really different, they talked different, and my tongue presentations and bullshit, and it just I had such little tolerance for any of that. So I I literally just I like to say that to my clients too. I just I released them. I literally just opened the door. I didn't even tell most people I was doing this because you don't need to have it.

SPEAKER_00

You don't need to, right?

SPEAKER_01

But I literally just opened the door and I just and I let them go. And the ones that wanted to stay, that was like, I don't want to, no, I don't want to leave your house, they stayed. But the ones that were toxic, one-sided relationships, and this is also important to to note that a toxic relationship does not mean that this person is horrible, right? That they're physically abusive, that they are, you know, just a horrible person that should not be on this planet. That's not what we're talking about, right? But a person that is toxic, what they do too is they add so much negativity, right, to your life. And just the saying, you are like the five people that you're around. I so believe that, right? So when you surround yourself with the people that you trust the most, it is very normal, right, to adapt that people's energy and and suck that sort in. And but you want to be around people that make you feel good and make you feel uplifted and makes you feel supportive because you want to do the same to them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and you know, for me, those people also challenge me. They call me out on my bullshit.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Um, not that I try and give a lot of bullshit, but we all do sometimes, and we got to be called out. Sometimes we don't know we are, sometimes we do.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, you know, and I think of it, I like the way you put it about opening the door, so to speak, and you can leave. You know, I think of it as like we prune people from our lives as we grow because they're not growing with us. And even if they're growing, they may be growing in a different direction. Yeah. Um, and that's happened to me over and over again. And I just I feel like there's people in my life that have truly outgrown because they're not interested in growing, yeah, and I am. And I I think I grow a little every day. I want to. And all of a sudden, people I was close with and enjoyed their company, I just I don't have tolerance, like you were saying. It's very difficult to spend a lot of time around them.

SPEAKER_01

Because the the conversations too, right? They become surface-like. It just you can't go as deep as you want with certain people, right? And it's not to say you can't shoot the shit, that's fun to do too. But in real intimate relationships, whether it's friendship or with a partner, you want to be able to go there as you're growing and changing, right? Every single day.

SPEAKER_00

It's and some part and and there are friends that sort of fit into different pockets, but um, you know, because even like I have friends that I talk sports with, but I you know even then you want to go a little deeper in the conversation, be able to, you know, I don't need to talk about why your team is so great. Like, let's talk about those things. You know, like when talking with somebody, they could be like, we could talk about, like, for instance, I talk with my friend Rob, we we talk about our teams. We have different we refer for different teams, but I could talk about the problems with my team and what what I think that they need to do or whatever, or even things about it with his team, and it's a much more enriching conversation to me than to constantly be saying why my team is better than your team, which is a very low-level, primitive type of conversation to me that I used to have at one time, and I just don't, you know, it's a really trying to give a very simple metaphoric description of what we're talking about. Yeah, I don't want to have that conversation anymore. That's just not fulfilling in any way, and it it feels conflictual, in fact, right? Because even if you're doing it jokingly, it's like we're we're battling all the time.

SPEAKER_01

We're still in competition, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And one of you are trying to win, right? One of you are trying to win.

SPEAKER_00

We're trying to bring the other one over to agree with us. Yeah, it's like speed two people on it. You can have a political discussion that can be very good and fulfilling, and you know that you're not going to change if you're on opposite sides, you are not gonna change the other person's mind. No, but you still can have a conversation where you can go deep, express your own views, have respect for one another, and come out probably a little bit more enriched than you went in, right? No matter what side you're on. If you go in with that mindset, right, that you're here to just to learn and but so many so many people have political conversations and they want it, they want to convert you to their side, and that's never gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01

It's never gonna happen. And that's and that's the um acceptance too, right? Of and the and the respect of the other person.

SPEAKER_00

Like, oh, this is what I don't I don't really see it that way, but that's interesting that that's respecting their opinion, exactly, and that's healthy and uh and not toxic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

But for me, I thought this might be helpful to share this little story. I had a friend who she was a mother, and we had children at similar ages, and um I was in my marriage and I was not in a good place, and she at the time I could not see that, but she filled this I like to call like my angry void that I had because talk about a negative person like every single time we would talk on the phone or we would see each other. There was really nothing positive, it was just about how exhausted she was, what although she had a lot of children, but all the children, husband wasn't doing what she wanted him to do, her mother was this, and always, but because of the state I was in, I could relate to that. And it was just like this is amazing. We just get to sit here and we get to vent and we get to bitch and we get to be angry at the world, like that's amazing, and that went on for years, and I don't think I ever put that together when I would come home from whatever outing we did with the children. First of all, I was always exhausted because she just had all these children and they were everywhere.

SPEAKER_00

And well, and your conversations must have been exhausting too.

SPEAKER_01

And then the conversations and the energy, my energy was just always completely depleted. So then she moved to a whole different country. And that and I was devastated. I thought it was devastated because, and now I understand, I was like, who am I gonna bitch to the world about? I had no one like her in my life. Who am I gonna bitch about the world? Who is really gonna be my support system? And then I realized she really was not my support system, I was her support system. So when she had moved away, our conversations over the phone consisted of just her crying and whining and how unhappy she was, and she wanted to come back, and she did a. And and I was just like her coach, I was her therapist. And this just went on forever. And I would deep inside I would feel so sad. And I'm like, if I can come get you, I would. Like it was absolutely sad. But I didn't realize I was doing it at the time. So then a year passes, and she actually comes back to the town where I live. And um I had this dread, I didn't know what it was. I had this dread inside of me. Instead of feeling excited that this person was moving back, there was this dread inside of me. And it took a conversation with another friend to realize that what we felt was exactly that a dread, like, oh my gosh, this like vampire is coming back, who literally vampire who sucks the life and energy out of us. And just by saying that out loud to someone else, I was like, oh my God, you feel the same way. So we were able to really just talk about it in such a productive way. Like, this is exactly you feel that way too. Is that how I'm feeling too? So she moved back and and you know, I tried to pick up where we left off, but I couldn't because at that time I had ended my marriage, I was living, you know, with my daughter, healing, growing, learning things about myself. And I had opened the door a while ago and all the toxic people were disappearing. But I still had her left in my life. And it took me a minute to really understand that wait, I don't feel good around this person. I am completely depleted. She is never ever going to change. We can never talk about anything positive. And it is always about her.

SPEAKER_00

She's always got a rain cloud over her head.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. So when I really understood that, I released her. And again, there was no conversation. I opened the door very wide, and I stopped engaging with her, and she literally disappeared from my life.

SPEAKER_00

And the You kind of walked her to the door.

SPEAKER_01

I was like, here's the door. You see the door? There you go.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Without the door. Don't make me kick you through it. Just walk, please.

SPEAKER_01

And the piece I felt after was incredible. Was incredible. And I'm like, this was the last one of these toxic people that are now gone from my life. And that felt amazing.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, it's okay to have those nights like you hear about where you've seen the movies, women like some guy mistreated. You know what? We'll get ice cream, we're just gonna bash on men, fuck them all. And it's all good, but when it's every time you're with somebody that there's something else negative, and and especially when there's little to no positive, this is not a healthy person. No, very clearly unhealthy. And honestly, somebody like you're describing will make any relationship toxic. The most look, negative energy is much more powerful than positive. So even the most positive person, if they were to remain in her presence, it will wear on them, most likely. Yeah. Right? You could put Ted Lasso with her, and you probably might wear him out too.

SPEAKER_01

Even Ted, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

For those of you who don't know who Ted Lasso is, such a show on Apple, he is like the eternal optimist, wonderful character.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. It's yeah, he is an eternal optimist. It's like amazing. Yeah. What about you? Do you have an example of a story of someone in your life that drained the heck out of you and you didn't realize that as it was going on?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I was dating somebody. We we lived in different states, so long-distance relationship. Um somebody I had known from high school, um, and we kind of reconnected through Facebook years years later. And um, you know, they they had come out here for something, somebody died or something, and um and so we we got together and things were wonderful. And I had briefly dated her in high school for like a week, um, when I was like a freshman. And um so we started the first two months, just felt great. We saw each other a couple of times because, like I said, she lived pretty chilled in South Carolina. Um and then it got to a point where I know the first time she'd come up here and I was supposed to go out there, and then got a huge fight all week. Um, just started finding everything wrong, and I don't know if it was the anxiety. I thought maybe it was the anxiety of me going out there. And then every time I was going, it we would fight a lot, and it would she would it was always picking at me, it felt like, and then um it definitely got to a point where everything intensified whenever I was supposed to go out to see her, or she was and it just uh and it got to a point where it literally would be that we would talk in the morning before I even went to the gym, which I do before work, and it would literally turn into a combative conversation there. Then, you know, I would if I let it go, she would try and make it a combative conversation, either through text or phone calls while I'm at work. At times I would make the mistak I got if you know, I'd call her, you know, we were together, so I'd call her, you know, if I had a cancellation with one of my clients, and now I spend the time fighting with her for the hour that I had that I could have been doing paperwork, but I chose to call her to be uplifted, if anything, for my girlfriend, and that turned into a fight, and then it would turn into hours of fighting like a home. And literally, I would say the last month or two of her relationship looked like this to the point where people at my to where I worked, uh, after I broke up with her, told me how much better I looked since ending it, and that I looked horrible when I was with her. I looked depleted, I looked worn out, tired. Um, and it was it was like everything got negative. Um, I looked at every I was looking at most things negative. And um, I mean talk about a an energy vampire um just turned everything negative, and it was like, and again, this is one of those things about toxic talking about toxic relationships, constant criticism about everything. Yeah, like I've ever didn't matter what I was doing, I was criticized. The way I drove was criticized. Um the way I touched her, if we're intimate, was criticized. Um, my lack of attention, uh I'm negative. It was it was constant criticism by the end that I allowed, which also this is where when we're in toxic relationships, we have to remember we contribute to those, yeah, even if we're the victims, so to speak, we're not victims, we're active participants. And how was I? I didn't draw boundaries with her. I allowed this to continue to happen. Yeah, and I just kept trying to please her, and I kept telling myself, well, this individual's had a lot of trauma. Right, I'm the I'm the therapist, so I love her. I need to, you know, I have to make this work. I'm the one who's trained. I, you know, I put everything on myself, which is ridiculous. That's not my job in the relationship, and I don't care what I do for a living, I don't need to bring that into my relationship. But that's what I did, and so I was toxic too, but the toxicity, the negative toxicity came primarily from her. And it was like I felt like I couldn't do anything. And I often would say to her, You don't even seem to like me. Why the fuck are you with me? Why do you why how could you love me when you don't like me? You won't have anything nice to say to me. And she and then, of course, I got criticized for that as being overly dramatic, and that wasn't true.

SPEAKER_02

That wasn't true. Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_00

That's not true. Right. Like, why do you always have to be like that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm like, Oh, see, you're gonna use right now. Well, yeah, you well, it's just like you. Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_01

So just use spirals and circles.

SPEAKER_00

Never had a harder time. I've never I'm I haven't all I think I'm a pretty good communicator now. And I think I've probably always been decent, but I am, you know, as a therapist, I really try to put into practice in my own life the things that I've learned, the things that I share with clients, and sometimes it reminds me of doing things more often. So I really think that I consider myself I consider myself to be a good communicator. I wouldn't use great, but very good communicator. And I've never had a harder time communicating with anybody in my life. It was unbelievable. I mean, the gaslighting that went on, and it was just it was an awful experience. And it's sad to say, but in all my years of dating, and I've been single almost my whole life, I've had relationships, but I've often just been out there. Um, so I've dated a lot of people, is my point. In all of my years of dating, the saddest part for me is again filtering into me being the formerly unavailable, emotionally unavailable therapist, is the most toxic relationship I ever had was while I was a therapist. Yeah interestingly enough. And she was the most toxic relationship, but she wasn't that different from other relationships I had. It was just the most toxic.

SPEAKER_02

It was familiar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It was familiar. Not not being listened to, being gaslit, you know, these are all things we talk about in toxic in talk. And if there's a few of these, it doesn't mean you're in a necessarily toxic relationship. It means you have toxic elements in your relationship. But when you you kind of know by how you feel in a relationship if it's toxic, right?

SPEAKER_01

And I and I think too, what's so important to note is if you feel that someone in your life, right, is spiraling, they have that big dark cloud over them. I feel like every time you talk, it's just it's just complaining and whining and you're not heard. If you can't go to that person and say, hey, this is what I've noticed, right? I would really love it if we could you know talk about that or do this instead, or it's sort of like bringing me down a little bit, right? And if this person responds to you, right, in in their fashionable way by saying, you know, what's wrong with you? I'm having a hard you can't listen to me. This is horrible. So if you're not heard in a relationship, right, if you can't go to somebody and say things that you've noticed, how you feel, right? Again, important to use I statements. I feel I feel this when this happens, when this happens, right? I feel depleted after I hang up the phone.

SPEAKER_00

Instead of you always do something.

SPEAKER_01

You make me feel, right? That that's a that's an unhealthy, toxic way to communicate. But I, because you don't know how this other person feels. This is how I feel. But if you can't come to a person in your life and say that and say it, I just I wonder if there's a way we can change the dynamic of relationship, right? That's also a really good idea.

SPEAKER_00

They should want to, they should care about that.

SPEAKER_01

That's also a really good sign that you are in a toxic relationship. You're with someone who is not interested in the same thing that you are. Again, it doesn't mean that they are a terrible person, they just like to spiral in the negative.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I don't think they like it, but that's what they do. That's what's familiar with it, and they don't own their behavior, they don't take any accountability, right? If you go to them and they're they're just putting it back on you, or then this is the sign of somebody this this is toxic, right? Yeah, if there's name-calling in a relationship, toxic. And I'm not talking about kidding, like truly kidding name-calling, right? Like, where you you know, if I if you do something like oh, you bitch, right? Like, I I'm not calling you a bitch. It's a it's being funny because like you did something that I was unexpecting, or or like you know, maybe you I lost a game to you or something, so you know, whatever it is. And I don't even kid that way too much.

SPEAKER_01

No, you don't. That's not a word anyone really likes.

SPEAKER_00

No, I mean, but I mean, some people will kid that way, but it needs to be truly kidding, and it's not something that should happen over and over again, right?

SPEAKER_02

No.

SPEAKER_00

Um, it's something that it's once in a blue moon. So whenever there's that name calling, and honestly, you're better off not using those words with each other because it's toxic. It is. You know, it's like criticism or sarcasm, excuse me. I I really like sarcasm, but when there's sarcasm in a relationship, that's really criticism, is what it is. I think sarcasm is very funny, but if it's overly used in a relationship, even if it's not, sarcasm is is a way of kind of dressing up criticism.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But when I do sarcasm, truly, it's almost like making fun. I hope at least that's how somebody would see it, of something that is like you know, something that somebody does that it's not a big deal, but I'm making a joke about it.

SPEAKER_01

It's also how you say it, right? Like you were very sarcastic, and I like that sense of humor, right? I find that very funny, but it's also how you say it.

SPEAKER_00

I'm not trying to hurt you with it, right? I might pinpoint something that is something like you know, like if you were to be sarcastic about me snoring, I do snore. I wish I didn't, but I do. Right. And if you were to like make a common, sarcastic comment, I'm not gonna get upset about it because I do it. Right, right. It's something I I at this point can't help. So, you know, and then another thing about these relationships, again, like the one I described, is walking on eggshells. I was constantly afraid, you know, I'd be trying to walk through a room almost, if you use this metaphor, try not to step on the landmine, which there were a ton of them, and you couldn't see them.

SPEAKER_01

You didn't know what they were, and I often did.

SPEAKER_00

And if I got through the room and I did not step on the landmine, and I'm looking back and I'm all proud of myself, you know what she did? Talk about a bit, she'd stand there and go and blow it up for me, right? Like in a cartoon with the handles. She would do it, she would do it. She would do it anyway, exactly. She would blow it up, and and you know, and those are all things that happen with toxic relationships and toxic people. And it's interesting because people who are extremely toxic in these kind of relationships may not be in others. Sometimes the intimacy of a romantic relationship causes that toxicity because there's too much vulnerability for somebody, or you know, or if it's a really close friend, they sabotage those relationships because they feel too vulnerable, too open, too, they don't feel safe. And it's because they're in their in fight or flight, that person, if the other person is healthy, if this could, you know, that it's their feelings of um of of lack of safety and and feeling that fight or flight.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So when you're in an intimate relationship, I have a personal experience with that, with someone who is toxic, they save their toxicity for you. They save it with the person that they feel safest with, exactly, that they are comfortable with, right? So this person can keep their mask on, right? Around other people, even at work until unless they get super stressed out. Um it's like Jekyll and Hyde, two very different people. And then when they're around you or when they communicate with you, just like what you explained in your relationship, in your past relationship, it's a whole different person. And and for someone who has experienced that, it is the most that whole secrecy of knowing that other people can't see and can't tell what this person is really like behind closed doors. And they might comment things like, Oh my gosh, it's such a nice person. I can't believe this person did that for you. That's really nice. Oh yeah, that person seems really nice. And your brain just won't explode because you know what they're like behind the closed doors, right? But they put on the facade, they put on a facade and they put on and they put on the mask, right? So toxic, intimate relationships are extremely exhausting too. Because what we're talking about too is that if you're in a friendship with someone who's toxic, you would use to open that door, right? You open the door just like I did, and what you've done, and we're like, here you go, off you go. Not to say you can't do that in an intimate relationship, it just becomes harder.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and there's some like if we were to kind of put in a nutshell, I think one of the key components, usually, or maybe always, I'm not sure. I don't like using the word always as a mental health professional because there's always exceptions to exceptions to the rule. However, is there's always some kind of drama and crisis.

SPEAKER_01

Always.

SPEAKER_00

Right? It's almost what binds you together, right? Whether we're talking about uh a romantic partner, a close friend, could be a family member, right? It's always when if there's always a crisis, if there's always drama, that's a strong indicator. Now, people go through drama and crisis, right? Somebody who um, God forbid, lose a child. I mean, that that's not the kind of thing we're talking about. What we're talking about is they just always find drama. And you see it a lot with like girls, like kids your daughter's age, right? They're all about drama in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the highest.

SPEAKER_00

You can't talk to so-and-so. She said that my paint dress was, you know, just whatever.

SPEAKER_02

And we're not gonna talk about it.

SPEAKER_00

Right, you know, and that kind of thing, and that's toxic too, even at that age. But these are phases, but if you find yourself in that kind of relationship, that's that's almost definitely toxic.

SPEAKER_01

And I think what's important to note, and this is talking from my trauma-informed brain, is that what happens to you chemically is when you're in a toxic relationship like that. And again, that was very familiar to me from the way I grew up, is that you release right these crazy feelings. When you're in, I remember when I was in a conversation with my friend, right? It's like your your whole nervous system gets activated, right? And you are spinning and you are just raging, and that search in your body and in your brain, you get used to that, right?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And then you have that low, and you're like, this is not interesting, this is not exciting. So you keep waiting to get that hit again of that drama, of the carousel, of the vortex, of all that stuff, because that's what you used to use are the constant high and lows. And that's what we see in teenage kids, right? Is that right? One day they love each other, the next day they don't.

SPEAKER_00

But it's like that high and low is what they're sometimes period to period in the school day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, it could be within five minutes, it could be it could be a high and a low, right? But anything like that, when you experience if you experience that in your life, that is a really good indicator that this is not a healthy relationship.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And it's also an indicator is that maybe I have toxicity about me.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Why am I being drawn into that? Why do I need that? Right? Because often people who are in those relationships, they get a lot of validation because all they do is help these people and enable them. Yeah. And then they're feeling love from that. So, you know, when we're talking about as we're coming to a close with this, is when we're talking about a toxic relationship, some of the factors we need to look at is what are some of the things that are we toxic? Are we the ones who always seem to have drama, right? Always negative, always, you know, never seem that positive. Are we the ones that seem to be causing fights if we're really, really being objective about ourselves and picking fights with the other person? And if so, why? Yeah, what's causing us to do this stuff? Right, right? Am I somebody who is volatile? Where if things don't go my way, I become very angry or I withdraw or whatever those consequences are, which cause people to walk on eggshells around me and to try and be very careful how they handle they handle you with kid gloves. Um, am I somebody who is a name-caller? Do I take things very personally and then react to that in a very strong way? If any of those answers are yes, then we need to look at ourselves at that moment and see we may not be the cause, and it's never one person when a relationship isn't working. We've said this in other podcasts, but we have to take a look at what's my role. It may not just be that I'm the one being victimized, or I'm the one who is being nitpicked at, or I just I'm not holding boundaries and I'm allowing it. We may actually be contributing other a lot of toxicity to the fire.

SPEAKER_01

You're adding fuel to the fire because if you in a relationship like that were to stay neutral, you're not adding fuel to the fire. But the reason the relationship continues is because you are participating too. You can't have a one, you can't have a relationship with yourself, right? Like there's going to be no communication and no drama. So if you are participating, I I like to call it you adding fuel to the fire. That is how the conversation increases, and that's how it stays crazy and spinning and all that, right? So the minute you decide, I don't want that in my life. I am not going to keep adding fuel to this fire with this person. I'm not going to have this conversation keep spinning. That is your decision, and that is what you're contributing, right? And I and I love the saying that you become like the five people that you are around. And you really do, right? You pick up on people's energy, on their moods, their values, their boundaries, and all that. It just really gets ingrained in you. So be just very careful with who you surround yourself with. In your life.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And be aw it's important to have the self-awareness because you just might be the one that's most toxic, contributing to the relationship. And I don't think anybody really wants to be that person. I don't think there's a lot of joy in it, but we don't know how to get out of our own ways. Nope. And and having that insight is the first step. If you can't acknowledge what your contribution is, you can't change it.

SPEAKER_01

100%. I love that. I love that. So I hope, we hope that this has just given you a little bit of insight into are you in a toxic relationship with anyone in your life? Right? Does any of this sound familiar to you? Can you relate? And if you are, like you said, the first step is just really awareness and right and and realizing is this something I want to contribute to or not? And how common it really is.

SPEAKER_00

Or participate in. And by the way, it may be that you're like, okay, I'm in a toxic relationship, but I don't want to end that. Well, then there's steps you can take from there too, right? There's ways you can start to say, well, what can I change? Because you cannot change the other person. So what do I change about me? I can have stronger boundaries, I can be more assertive in my communication. I can start using I statements and not you statements. Um, I can, you know, change my behavior and see if that has an impact. And it will, it just may not help the health of the, I can hold them accountable. I can point out instead of being passive when this individual hurts me and what I don't like, I could seek professional help with somebody like me or you. Um, but so there are things that could be done. What we're saying is if you're in a toxic relationship, now the more toxicity, the less likely or the harder it will be to fix. Yeah. Right? So, like the Gottmans talk about the four horsemen, we've talked about this, which are contempt, criticism, stonewalling, and defensiveness. And they've said once those elements are in a romantic relationship, they specifically talk about marriage, but any romantic relationship, that relationship is virtually doomed. Now, I think it depends on there's if it's mildly, we can work with that. If it's moderate or or severe, especially if it's if it's severe, it's gonna be exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, to change the dynamic in the relationship. There is a certain point where people get to. And uh, for those of you who think you may be in a toxic relationship and do want help, I strongly suggest, or you think that you're going towards one, get help sooner than later. Um, as a somebody who works a lot with couples, I have found that most couples come to see me when their relationship is either in the ICU, so to speak, or on a respirator. And there's not a lot to do. It there's so much damage that's been done, it becomes extraordinarily difficult to help them to stay together, um, which is the ultimate goal. But ultimate what you know, that's all that would be the perfect ending. I mean, your goal is to try and help both of these people to be healthy in the way they're going about their relationship and relationships, and hopefully that helps them to come together. Um, but if you see any signs of those four horsemen that were mentioned, or we think it's toxicity, and you're looking for somebody from the outs, because it's often hard for us to change our own behavior, get out of our own way, whether it's as an individual or as a couple, and that counts me and you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right? It's our own green behavior. We are human beings.

SPEAKER_00

It doesn't matter how much we know when it's our personal lives, it becomes something different.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so what I would say is if you feel that there's any hint of it and you might consider professional help or outside help, I would take that step immediately or as soon as you possibly can, because that's when you're able to get the most help, is early on.

SPEAKER_01

And just please know you always have a choice, right? You always have a choice to end any kind of relationship in your life that seems toxic. A relationship should really be 50-50 most of the time. It can't always be. But if you're in any kind of relationship with someone where you feel like you are always giving and you are never getting anything in return, it is time to either, like you said, seek professional help or come to that conclusion that this is just not working for me. And that is completely okay.

SPEAKER_00

And if I I would amend what you said slightly, I hate the word 50-50. I would rather use the word balance because I think of like a scale, and it's not tipped all the way to one side, but it's still balanced, even if it's leaning one way, and then there's gonna be a time where it's gonna lean the other way, right? We pick each other up, and that's what partners do, that's what people who deeply care about each other in any kind of relationship do. So it it there should be a balance to it, and even if it is all the way down, okay, right? Somebody's going through something. Great. Then it should start to balance out again eventually. That's a healthier relationship. That's something absolutely where you which is what you're working for, that balance, and it's always going to be moving around, and it's not gonna be still perfect balance, and never that's not life, but right beautiful.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for clarifying that. Thank you for listening. Yeah, and keep talking, keep talking, and if you like this episode, please give us a far five-star review. And um and you can write any sort of comments that you like in the comment section.

SPEAKER_00

We would love to see that.

SPEAKER_01

We do. And um, if you don't want to miss an episode, please uh hit the follow button in the upper right hand side. There's three little dots, click on that, and then you'll see follow. So every week, Monday at 6 a.m. Eastern, a new episode gets dropped. Yes, so you don't miss an episode. And it really just helps to podcast being shown to more people when you give us a rating.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you a bunch.