Crave To Connect | Building Better Relationships

How To Deepen Intimate Relationships | Crave To Connect | Ep14

• Karina and Michael • Season 1 • Episode 14

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Crave To Connect is a candid, honest, and sometimes hilarious conversation about the messy realities of relationships.Hosted by Karina Paxton, a certified clinical EFT practitioner, and a trauma informed coach, and...

Michael Calderon, a licensed clinical social worker (LSCW) and a licensed clinical alcohol and drug counselor (LCADC) specializing in mental health, addiction, and relationship dynamics

The goal is simple: Real conversations about real life and real real relationships.

With their unique backgrounds in trauma recovery, therapy, and emotional healing, Karina and Michael bring two different perspectives to topics like toxic relationships, healing, personal growth, and understanding human behavior. 

Expect relaxed conversations, unexpected insights, and the occasional awkward moment, because that’s what real conversations look like.

Pull up a chair, get comfortable, and join the conversation.


To get in touch:

Instagram: 

https://www.instagram.com/liveyourlife.coach?igsh=dHJpcm1zZmQ3c3Ex&utm_source=qr

Website:

https://linktr.ee/liveyourlife.coach

Book a Call:

https://calendly.com/liveyourlife-coach/30-minute-discovery-call-helena-guest

Michael Calderon:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/michael-calderon-hackettstown-nj/1044394


SPEAKER_03

Welcome to Crave to Connect with your host Karina, the recovering men hater, and Mike, the former emotionally unavailable therapist. Sit back, get comfortable, and relax. Our whole vibe with this podcast is to casually dive into all the messy, hilarious, and sometimes confusing parts of relationships. Whether it's with yourself or the humans, no pressure, just good chats, and maybe some awkward moments. Today we are going to talk about how to deepen intimate relationships.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That is something that is brand new for both of us.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_03

How do you do that? And why do you do that? And um like people that have been sort of living in with that philosophy for a while is is just it was just foreign to me before I did all of my work and and my understanding of what relationships were like. So apparently, in order to have a healthy relationship, you have to actually work at it and you have to show up. You have to show up, and you get to choose how you want to participate every single day. And we're laughing about it, but honestly, I had no idea that that's what what you really it's a choice, but this is what it's just a really good idea in order to build and maintain an intimate relationship.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, I think a lot of times we think of uh, you know, relationships should be easy. We make friends and we just kind of click, right? But when you're talking about an intimate relationship that includes um sex, intimacy, man and woman, it's not like you're you having a girlfriend or me having a guy friend where we just click. We you know, I've my friend, we have commonality in sports, and then we have commonalities in other areas, and we always have fun together, and it just works, and we don't have to work that hard at it. This is different. We're talking about coming together with different ideas, different ways of approaching things simply because we're different genders, and and now we're adding in the you could be intimate with a friend where you're intimate, intimately close on an emotional level, but we're now adding in a romantic intimacy and sexual connection as well. That complicates everything, it becomes much harder. It you would you know, when you think about it just on the surface, it doesn't sound like it should, but it does. It absolutely does. And men and women have different ideas about things, and then you're gonna live together, it's it's hard.

SPEAKER_03

And there is really nothing that triggers you more than an intimate relationship, your children, and your parents, right? Those three triggers are something that I think universally everyone can relate to, right? So we just we want it just to share sort of our story and experiences with being in a new relationship, and also just give give everyone just some ideas of how to deepen a relationship or stay connected, whether you've been together for years, been married for decades, you just met. Um, all of that is super, it's just super important.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I think one way to start would be to kind of define emotional intimacy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So this is according to Kayla Crane, uh, who is a therapist. Um, she says that emotional emotional intimacy is not about grand romantic gestures. It is about the thousand small moments when you choose to be the to be present with your partner instead of distracted. It is noticing when they seem down and asking about it. It is sharing your own struggles instead of pretending everything is fine. It is being willing to be seen, really seen, even when it feels risky.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that vulnerability, right, is something else. And unless you are in a relationship where you actually have trust, you and I have talked about that a lot, right? How we really trust trust each other, and that is why we can be ourselves in this relationship.

SPEAKER_04

Well, you know, I I've had trust with other people and couldn't be myself. I don't know the same level of trust, but I just was too afraid to be vulnerable, and that's why I'm the formerly emotionally unavailable therapist, because I just to be emotionally available would be vulnerability, and I was too scared of it. Um, and I've learned that I had to gain insight about it. I didn't even know that was going on for years doing the same things. And by gaining that, now I'm able to really open up with you and able to be completely vulnerable, um, which I had started doing prior to you with other relationships. And it's interesting as I did that, I started to change the women that I was dating. But in that process, I actually dated one of the most I had one of the most toxic relationships I've had in the process of trying to open myself up. That was the first one that I chose when I decided I needed to do this. Um but uh yeah, I think um I think that's the key. It's it's vulnerability.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but in order to be vulnerable, you also have to, your nervous system has to come to a point where you trust this other person that you can be vulnerable, right? Because if you are vulnerable to someone else and they use that against you or they weaponize you, you're gonna shut down real quick and you're gonna be like, I am never ever sharing anything that I feel. That was certainly my experience in all of my relationships, I think up until meeting you for sure. Was that if I were say, if I would say out loud exactly how I felt on the inside, these this other person I was dating would either not understand or they would call me sensitive, dramatic, and all the things that I am. I'm a very sensitive being. And I find that that's a superpower. And I tell my daughter that too, she's super sensitive too. To be deeply feeling, that's like a superpower. You just have to know how to use it, right? And not let yourself be have people use that against you.

SPEAKER_04

People call that empathic a lot of times.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right. You yeah, you you can call that. Um, so I think trust for sure, you have to be with someone that your nervous system trusts. And again, trust builds over time, right? So the way you and I did it, and we were just talking about this. We're talking about emotional trust, not just trust, like as far as not cheating, we're talking about being able to talk about our most talk about our emotions and yeah, our our inner feelings, right? So, um, how I liked this is just an image that came to me, is that I feel like you and I, from the beginning, we set a foundation, right? So I'm let's so I'm like envisioning, like really building a house. And you and I, even without really talking about it, it was just like we we really did it from step one. We didn't skip any steps. It was like first we are going to, you know, we're pretending we architects and we just we you know, figure out exactly where our lot is going to be, exactly how big our house is going to be. We can do that, that step too.

SPEAKER_04

Make sure our land's level.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, exactly. Make sure everything is leveled, right? Before we start marking out where we want our house to be, right? And even before we pour the concrete, like we literally followed every single step. And prior to that, in my other relationships, first of all, I didn't even know that that was something that you should do, that this was a good idea. I just thought we're just gonna build a house, we're just gonna put it up one, two, three, because we want to get to the good part, right? We don't want to do all the groundwork. But what happens if your house doesn't have a solid foundation?

SPEAKER_04

We want to decorate the house. We don't even want to spend time building it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we also want to decorate it. But what happens is if you don't build a house with a solid foundation, right? What happens? Down the road, you're gonna have crazy storms because that is life for you. You're gonna have crazy storms, you're gonna have flooding, you're gonna have whatever. Um, and there's not the insulation isn't great, you're gonna be freezing, you're gonna be too hot. Like all these problems are going to consistently.

SPEAKER_04

You're gonna have structural damage if you don't build a strong foundation.

SPEAKER_03

100%. And that's what that was what all my relationships were like, because I never even understood that that was so important to build, to take our time, however long it was going to take to lay that foundation before we start building, that that was gonna be worth everything because we were going to avoid a lot of these disasters down the road, right? So I think what you and I have done so brilliantly is that we have done that. None of us are perfect. You and I are still learning. This is so new, new to us, right? We're almost 10 months in. But that is the biggest difference we've done. And I am just so grateful that we both are doing this intentionally from the start.

SPEAKER_01

Right?

SPEAKER_03

We are not years or decades into the relationship, and all of a sudden we're going, oh my gosh, we forgot to build a solid foundation, let's go back. Not to say that it's impossible, but it's a lot harder, right? To get back on the ground and try to put the foundation back together in a way that we should have done from the beginning.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'm not even sure. You know, I think that if it's a shaky foundation, really shaky to start with, I don't know that you can really repair it. That's just when couples stay together forever that have that, they often stop having sex. They there's not that that connection that they have, their connection is through kids or grandkids, and you know, so I think having that foundation is important. And I think and you're always re you're always looking to see if there's cracks and how can we, you know, and that's the thing. It's like not looking for the negative, but wanting to make sure checking in with each other that that we're keeping that foundation in our house sound.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. So that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_04

And we we had we actually did that recently. We had a we had a tough week a week ago. Was it a week ago? Yeah, where I said something that triggered some some of Karina's past trauma, and her reaction wasn't was I said uh, I think I said I felt like uh the world's against me. And you know, I sometimes feel like the world's caving in on me, and you know, it's not something I stay with, but you know, sometimes I have a slight pity party for myself, and I said it to her, and she got very quiet and withdrawn, and then said that her ex said that all the time, and I'm like, okay. And things felt on it felt uncomfortable after that. And then we kind of had a day where it felt really almost back to normal. I was like, great, and then it didn't, and we had a we had a long talk about it.

SPEAKER_03

We did. And what was so incredible about that talk is we, you know, we literally sat down and we were holding hands, and I just I shared exactly what I felt on the inside when that had happened, and I understood because I sat with it for a while, right? A couple of days, and I understood that it wasn't you, it was what triggered me from my past relationships, and that and I realized I have a really hard time uh being in the uncomfortableness, being in hard things. I'm really good when things are really good, right? But to show you the kind of support that you need, right? And I think that was my biggest frustration, too, is that I didn't know how to do that for you. Like, how can I support you? How can I hold it?

SPEAKER_04

But it also felt like, oh, here we go, Yan, right? This guy is oh, the world's against him. But I mean, that's what it felt like. It felt like that. It was like nothing was going my way. Um, things were costing me money that, you know, more than maybe they should, I forget what exactly, but I felt like like, damn, man, like, come on. And, you know, so I was negative, which is not, I don't think that's my usual mood to go there, right? And it's not and that's why I was a little like, wow, okay, so I I can't I can't ever feel this way, that's gonna be a problem. And then I had to sit with that, and I was like, well, no, that's this is part of her past, and you're having a hard time because of some of the things from your past now, right? Because and the thing that we have that's interesting is we both withdraw.

unknown

Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_04

So it's not one chasing the other one withdrawing. We both withdraw. So, like, imagine two people who do not work on that foundation withdrawing, that can kill the relationship.

SPEAKER_03

100%. We both would have been.

SPEAKER_04

It almost killed our relationship before we started. I mean, I remember because I I nearly didn't call Karina because I felt like it wasn't going anywhere. But I'm like, no, um there's something about this woman, I'm gonna make the call, but it was a late phone call. So I caught her like eight, it was like 8 20, and then I I lied to her and said I fell asleep. That was when we had our first phone conversation.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Because I wasn't sure. And then when I realized the time and I was panicked, I'm like, okay, I obviously want to call her. And I knew that she was special. I knew I felt like you were special, and I'm grateful I did, and that you accepted my lie for what it was, that not that I'm gonna be dishonest all the time.

SPEAKER_03

No, I understood it, but I think that I this is so important to point out is you were able to tell me that I almost didn't call you because I felt like you weren't interested, right? Like a relationship could just not even have started if it wasn't for that, right? So you did something different that you might not have done in previous relationships. You felt something in you that was different, right? I'm able to sit down with you and actually hold your hand and talk about things that are very uncomfortable. Whereas in the past, I just would have been like, oh I'm just gonna bury it. I'm just gonna pretend that this is not a big deal. I understood that you are not like my ex. You're not like these other people that I dated, but this was a feeling that came up in me. And that was important for me to get out and to say to you. And I didn't know how you were gonna respond and react, but I'm never, I promised myself that I was never ever, ever going to hold things in anymore. I was always going to express myself, and I always say that to you. I want you to do the same to me. And this is how the little cracks that you that you described, that's how we we fix those cracks. Because what's so important to understand is a healthy relationship does not mean it's perfect. None of us are perfect. There are always going to be cracks, no matter how solid you try to build your foundation, right? Because that is just life. And it's what do you do when those cracks show up, right? Do you just pretend you just put like a chair in front of it because you don't want to see it, which is what I've done my entire life, or do you actually cracks get worse and the foundation, water gets in there, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

And sometimes you have a crack where the water gets in in metaphorically speaking. But in this case, we simply had to just kind of patch up. It was a superficial crack. We kind of patch up, made it look nice again, and there's no water, no damage. It was but it was something.

SPEAKER_03

We learned so much about each other, right? And that is why you know we'd love to say keep talking at the end of our podcast. But this is what you and I, that's our intention, right? Is to always keep talking, is to always approach each other with curiosity.

SPEAKER_04

And we didn't, that's why it lasted a week, right? Right. And I kept waiting to see, and I was hesitant because I was worried about how you were going to perceive, like, oh wow, like why are you being so needy? Or but I knew something was off, and I do trust my inner feelings, and you know, as you talk about the way it feels in my body, my instincts, and I knew something, I just knew it was off, but it was causing me to kind of withdraw too. And so, um, and also because I'm like, why has this become such a thing that it's impacting us this long for days now?

SPEAKER_03

And so we have learned from that too, because what I said to you was, I don't like having those conversations in general, but I don't like having them over the phone because so much can be misunderstood, right? But I think what you and I learned from that was that that was too many days. It's like next time we feel anything that there's a little crack, right? We need to bring it up and say, can we can you stop by and we can like chat about this, right? Right. So it doesn't last that long because that is a horrible feeling. Both of us felt that something was off. And in my mind, I kept saying, I'm gonna wait until I see you on Saturday and talk about this, but that's just a long time to walk around and feeling this way. So so that's what I hated the way it felt. Oh, me too. Absolutely. But that's what we learned, right? By sitting down in a calm, respectful manner and being completely honest and expressing how we felt, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and we did do that, we did, and um and you know, it's been pretty easy. There's gonna be a time where I'm sure there might be a time where we agree to disagree in in those situations. We haven't had that. That's our second kind of thing we had to talk about, right? Where we had a something that was causing problems in our relationship and on discomfort mainly. But yeah, so I mean, these are ways to deepen the intimacy, to deepen that connection.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I felt so much better and immediately more connected to you. And like, even, you know, interestingly enough, like even like a I don't know how to, you know, like like a just a a a um not a flash, but like a uh, you know, like instantly more attracted to you in that moment, even, you know, I mean, like um, you know, like we have that, right? Where someone you always think they like, think you look good every day, but there's days you look exceptional, and you're like, oh my God. And you know, it kind of felt like that afterwards. It was like, oh, I just felt even more attracted to you.

SPEAKER_03

And um and that's what healthy repair, I like to call that repair, that's what healthy repair should do, right? It should bring you closer together because now you have learned something new about each other that you didn't know. Because what's so important to remember is none of us are mind readers, and we can't sit and expect this other person to know how I feel and why, and then that triggered me and that didn't, right? It is our responsibility to sit with it and understand what is that for me, and then once you'll regulate it, bring it up with your partner. Don't ever hold anything in. But but what you and I have in common too is we both agreed, and this wasn't even anything we really talked about, but we both have respect for each other, yeah. And I think having that is everything because if you respect a person, you can still disagree, right? You can still have discussions 100%, but you respect the person so much that you are going to talk to them in a respectful manner, right? Without judgment, in a way that you're just curious and you're like, tell me more about that. That that is coming from such a different place, other than I want to be right, you are not right, you are so annoying, you are whatever, right? When you have that notion of I respect this person so much, but I need to get this out, and you always should get it out.

SPEAKER_04

And curious means curious and say judgmental, because when we make our mind up, we're being judgmental because we haven't we're making assumptions about what the other person's thoughts were, what where it was coming from. You know, and the other thing too, what we're just discussing is you know, for us to take a step back, taking a step back from your emotions and processing is different than holding it in.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

But for me, I think this happened last Tuesday was when we had that conversation that kind of kicked off or two Tuesdays ago, it kind of kicked off everything feeling funny until Saturday when we saw each other. And for me, I think I probably processed that by if not Wednesday night, Thursday morning, and still was uncomfortable. I think probably processed it, maybe even by Wednesday morning, I don't know, because it happened that evening. Um and so then I ended up now. I ended up kind of instead of processing it, sitting with it to process to understand where I'm coming from or where what what I'm feeling and why, and then talking to you, and then that's when I said nothing, and I kept kind of pushing it down or whatever, and that's when things can start to become toxic. Yes, right, because you don't want to be reactive to everything because when we're emotionally reactive, we're not thinking logically, which is often a disaster. And then if we're emotionally um if we're emotionally triggered, then there's a good chance we're gonna come at it from an emotional perspective, emotion in our voice. Yeah, and now we're gonna trigger our partner too.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And it'd be that's when these fights and these clashes happen. So we want to make sure we're regulated, which I did, but I waited too long. I should have brought it up sooner.

SPEAKER_03

Same, same. But that's what we've learned. We learned when we feel something that we bring it up and we do it in person, right? Right. But this is what this is real, I call it an experiment too, right? Because we are experimenting with this, with this project that's a relationship, right? Because we have never been in a relationship together. We have never been in a healthy relationship where we can actually do that, both of us. So we are learning about each other. But our intention is always that we don't want to leave stuff, right? We do not want to leave the cracks in the wall and let them get bigger. Like we understand enough because of all the work we've done and because we value each other so. Much is that we need to fix them, right? We're not just going to pretend they're not there and push bigger and bigger furniture in front of it. We're not interested in doing that because that's how resentment builds, that's how anger builds. And then all of a sudden, you will get to a point where you're going to explode, and then everything comes out, right? And then that just becomes your biochemical reaction to here, he goes again, there she goes again. And that is that sets the tone for your relationship.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I think it's important to, you know, it shows a level of commitment, right? I mean, we're committed to each other if we're married or people are living, whatever, there's that commitment. But I mean, the commitment to the relationship and the commitment to the other person.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

We're not just going through the motions, we're committed towards keeping this relationship. You know, if you have a plant, you have to water it, feed it. If you don't, it will die. Even a cactus will eventually die. Yeah. And so many people don't real they don't seem to realize that you need to foster your relationship. You need to water it, you need to feed it. How do you do that? Well, you have to continue to work on increasing the intimacy. There's a lot of ways. These are some of the ways. Having conversations, checking in, having a date night, right? Or um talking about things other than the kids, right? Because oftentimes when the kids get old enough, they're off to college. Two people were sitting there and they're like, they have nothing in common. Because they were so involved with their kids and they were so focused on their kids that that's the only thing they had in common. And they allowed their relationship to die and they didn't know it was dead until the kids left. And then they ended up getting divorced. They oftentimes will get divorced.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's that's a very common age to get divorced when your kids are.

SPEAKER_04

Working finding a way to have that time together and to work on even having sex. Sex is important. I always, you know, especially when there's an issue where there's not enough sex to one partner, I'll tell the other partner, you know, marriage or whatever. Listen, I would never tell you to have sex if that's not what you want. But if you're feeling ambivalent, you could take it or leave it, take it. Have sex. What are you telling me? You're telling me you're you could take it or leave it. So many times people leave it. If you take it, I'm gonna have an orgasm, most likely. Yeah, that's bad. What your intimate partner you love? I don't know, take it.

SPEAKER_03

But I think I'm gonna play devil's advocate. If you are in a relationship where your foundation is so cracked, right, and there's stuff on top of stuff, on top of stuff, the last thing you're gonna want is to be naked with a person and have sex because that is very intimate. And I think what's important to understand too is when we get triggered, it is never ever really about that person. It is stuff from your childhood and past experiences and relationships that remind you of that, that triggers your nervous system and your brain, just like it did for me, because you are not the person that I dated before. You are a whole different person. So if we don't repair and if we don't understand ourselves enough, we are constantly going to be triggered by similar experiences because our nervous system is going to remember that.

SPEAKER_04

And it could be that you're being triggered by that, meaning, in other words, these things have occurred in your relationship and they continue. So this person is triggering, it is them, and it is our relationship that's triggering, right? Because of that, because we've allowed that in that toxicity or whatever is coming to the relationship, and we haven't really fully gotten it out. But what I was referring to is if you don't, you know, if there's ever a time where I want to have sex with you and you don't want to, I don't want you to have sex with me because of that. If you truly don't want to for whatever reason. Um, but if you're ambivalent, I would say take it. Right? If you could take it or leave it, and your partner really wants to, and and you could take it or leave it, take it.

SPEAKER_03

We're we're that's interesting. We're gonna talk about some action steps that we found that just might give people some ideas because you might be sitting out there going, I freaking hate this person that I've been married to for decades. I am in this relationship, I've been in for a couple of years. We have nothing to talk about. I don't even know what you what do you what do you mean I'm gonna deepen this relationship? Do I want it to get better? Maybe, but I don't know what to do. Like I just want to strangle him most days, right?

SPEAKER_04

So here are some bad start, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Here are some ideas that might help. But again, we hopefully want to want to try to do this before our relationship is on five.

SPEAKER_04

Before what you just described, like listen, you may want I'm sure there's gonna be if there isn't yet, there's gonna be times Korean wants to strangle me. Probably. But you know, those should be far and few between. So, and if you find that you're drifting, right, what we're not communicating, we're not as sexually active as I'd like, these are ways to help to increase the intimacy in your relationship.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So prioritize quality time. And you know, quality time is my love language, my primary love language. And I think so many couples, especially once children are born into the marriage, it quality time just becomes whatever. Are you kidding? I'm exhausted, I am sleep deprived, I am nursing, I am whatever. And then as they get older, your life evolves around these children, driving them to activities, picking them up from school, your calendar is just color-coded with all kinds of craziness that's happening. And if you don't consciously, and I was absolutely guilty of that because it again, it was a one-sided relationship I was in, but if you're not consciously working to stay connected to this person that you have decided to have children with, that relationship is going to fade into the background.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. I think if if we're talking about running here and there with kids, look, if if part of the way you must connect is to, okay, you know what, my kid doesn't have to do four baseball teams, uh, karate, gymnastic, all these, you know, they can if you have to limit that, I don't think you're depriving your child so that you can have time with your spouse. It's important because if if the partnership, if we're uh if the parents or or the couple is to is in is together, but they're not healthy, then the kids in the home aren't healthy either. Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things with quality time, one of the first steps to take is uh define. I think sometimes couples have different ideas of quality time. Define what is quality time, right?

SPEAKER_03

It's a really good point.

SPEAKER_04

How do we define quality time?

SPEAKER_03

What do you like to do? And what do I like to do? And let's right, maybe it's not a date night, maybe it's not going out for dinner and staring at each other across the table. Like, what is quality time?

SPEAKER_04

But so many times I'll hear somebody say, Well, we sit there and we watch watch a show together, and you know, my husband thinks that's quality time, and it's not. Right. Well, then my next question is, Well, what do you how help me understand that? Because we're probably gonna be watching some kind of show later together. That is quality time, but we lay together, you know. I I always have my arm around Karina, she lays on my chest or whatever.

SPEAKER_03

We have agreed on that. That's something both of us like, we agreed on it, and that's what's so important to get under a blanket, yeah. It's very cozy, it's amazing. But that's what's so important in a relationship to talk about that. Like, how do I feel close to you? What's don't just assume that it means going out for dinner, right? Right. Or watching a movie in separate ends of the couch or whatever it is. Like, talk about it, right? Practice won-ability, just like we talked about in the beginning. How do you share how you actually feel to this person that you have decided to be in a relationship with?

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

Scary. That could be scary.

SPEAKER_04

And I think one of the things I think is important is sometimes people feel like, oh, if I'm vulnerable, that means I'm needy. I think it's about how you're doing it. You can do that with confidence, right? And don't get me wrong, we're all we all are all needy sometimes. That incident that Karina and I discussed when I felt like the world, I was being, I was being kind of needy. I, you know, that's you know, we all can be needy at times, and I'm like, the world feels like it's caving in right now. And like it's and to be honest, what I wanted from Karina is what I you know used to get from my mom. Uh my mom died three years ago, and so I was what, three years ago? I was 51, so 50-year-old man. And yeah, sometimes I wanted to hear I would say to my mom when I felt like the world was caving in, which is it's not like I do this all the time, but occasionally, and I wanted to hear her say everything's gonna be okay. And if she said it was gonna be okay, or sometimes she would just come up with a simple idea, it I just knew it would be. And I kind of turned to Karina with that. She didn't know that's what I was doing, and and was like kind of looking for that just affirmation because I felt needy in that moment. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

And then so what happened to me is that I got triggered because that was that was the one thing in my in my marriage was there was always something wrong all the time. So instead of me pausing, which I was able to do when we had the conversation, I did say to you, what would be helpful for you?

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_03

What would you like from me when you were in that when when you were feeling that way, right? And I was like, God, that's a good question, Karina. And but also for you to tell me, so I'm not imagining in my head going, oh, maybe he needs me to do that. Like I wanted to know what would be helpful to you so I can do that next time that happens, because there will be a next time. And just like explain to you too, is you know, having a hard time in life, it's completely normal. We all feel it, and you should absolutely be able to express all that to me because life is not just freaking roses all the time, right? No, but if I if you wouldn't have said that to me, and if I wouldn't have been able to say to you, what would help you? And you would right, you were able to tell me I would really like if you say or do that. Now I know, and then it's up to me, it's my responsibility to remember that next time that happens, right?

SPEAKER_04

And that is how we keep building right, and I'm not looking for Karina that being like my mom, but no, just some reassurance, and even it could just be simple as uh, you know what? We're together, you're never in this alone, and that might be just enough, right? It probably would be, yeah. And so, um, and we as the as a person that's has someone coming to us, we need to be, we need to give that person space to be vulnerable without judgment.

SPEAKER_02

100%.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and even if we think it's kind of really like, but this is important to them, so it's important to me, it needs to be important to me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I always say everyone's feelings are valid, it does not matter if no one understands it, it's like it's it's what you feel, and that's important, right?

SPEAKER_04

Right, because even if it's something I don't see as a big deal, but you do, yeah, it's a big deal. Yeah, because I care about you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So when you're in an argument too, using I feel statements, right? I feel like you and I are, I feel like you and I are really good at doing that, is to say, this is how I feel, I felt, right? Instead of going, you always do that, and you were so damn negative on the phone, and right, and it's amazing how the brain picks up on that when someone says, I feel, instead of pointing a finger at you, right, and saying, You no, you didn't, you can't make me feel anything. I felt in my body this right, and so if if we and again, that's something that takes a while for our neuropathways to understand is that this is a different way of communicating. You're still expressing how you feel, but in such more productive way, because the other person can hear you, the other person is not going to hear you if you are you saying you, you always do, you're blaming, you are pointing fingers, you are whatever. But when you say I, you were taking accountability and responsibility for these are my feelings, and they're valid, but that's how I felt. I I have found that makes sense. But the words matter.

SPEAKER_04

It absolutely matters. And it's interesting. I recently did a consult with a couple, um, and one of the things I said to the couple, they're having trouble with communication, they're kind of shopping around. They said they've kind of met with a couple of few therapists and they're going to make a decision. Uh, and I said, Well, you know, I said, if I could give you guys a couple of, you know, just a couple things. I said, first, I statements, like we're talking about when you're talking to one another, use I statements instead of you statements, because when somebody hears you, you, as soon as you hear you, I gotta defend myself. And kind of like your fists go up to protect yourself, not so much. I'm just using it metaphorically, yeah, and get ready for a fight or get ready for a conflict. Um, when I hear I, I'm more much more usually we're much more able to hear that. And the other thing I said to them, and I think this is another way to build intimacy, is you know, I can truly say I do this, and I can truly say I've never done this before, but with you I do. I wake up every day and I think to myself, what's one thing I could do to make Karina's life better today?

SPEAKER_02

You do say that.

SPEAKER_04

And whether it's, you know, sometimes when I have a super long day, it's sending her a heart emoji, which she understands is a quick I love you, because I can't really stop.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Or, you know, if you're making someone's favorite lunch, or even if you put a note in their lunch, can't wait to see you later, or you know, um, sending a flirty text during the day. It could be, it could be a gift, sure. Um, but you know, what's it could be anything, what's something I can do. If you think every day when you wake up, what's something I could do to make this person's life better, that will absolutely help to build intimacy.

SPEAKER_03

And that made me very emotional when you said that. I said, I've never had anyone say that or even think about that. And um, that's incredible to know that that is how you feel. And again, it's it's it's a choice, right? That we choose every single day is how can I pour into this person?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03

Be not because we have to, but because we want to.

SPEAKER_04

Because we want to, right?

SPEAKER_03

It's a choice.

SPEAKER_04

We're investing, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

We are.

SPEAKER_04

You know, we talk about emotional accounts and how can I I want to do that. I want to invest in this person, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Also express appreciation and gratitude. Definitely so important, and a lot of and I should I mean I know you see that in with you couples, right? It's not it is the little things too that you that truly matters, right? It's the little things that you go, gosh, thank you for doing that, right? Yeah, and it it just feels so good to hear that from somebody that someone sees you. Oh, I did that. Like, for instance, when we stay over at your house, I appreciate so much, like before I even go to bed, when I come back from the bathroom, my phone and my water is like on my side of the bed, right? And and I remember the first time I saw that, I was like, wow, you move my water and my phone too. Like that just blew my mind that you would think of that. It's like if you get thirsty in the middle of the night, have a sip of water. Your phone is there, so you can turn it on in the morning and see if your daughter texted you. Like, that's just incredible, right? So it's like, I was like, Thank you so much for that. And you were like, Really, is that not a big deal? But it was it was such a beautiful gesture. So I think that is so important too in relationships. Don't wait until something major is it's all the little things that builds up.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and letting people know that you appreciate it and let them know. And thinking of these things again, you know, I remember I had a relationship with a girl, a woman I was with years ago, and I was going to her house for dinner, and I I went food shopping earlier in the day, and I called her and I said, you know, I'm going to shop, right? Is there anything you need? And she didn't say anything for a couple of minutes, and I'm like, you what what you're what's up? She's like, I never had anybody ask me that before. Like, what do you mean? She goes, I never had anybody thoughtful enough to ask me that before.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I said, really? I'm here going, what's the big deal? Right. You know, like to me it was like, and I'm not I'm not trying to blow myself up as this incredible guy, but that that's how I was raised, you know, that that's how my mom raised me.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, so but it's also important not only because people like to be acknowledged and it promotes those those positive feelings, but also on a selfish level, when you reinforce behavior, you want to reinforce behavior you like, you'll get more of it. We never reinforce bad behavior. That's right, right? So um when you say thank you, even if it's something they should be doing, they are much more likely the person, your partner to do it.

SPEAKER_03

It makes you want to do it, right? Because the feeling you get when someone says, God, thank you so much, it feels so good in your body. So you're like, I would like more of that. That feels good.

SPEAKER_04

And you care about what this person is feeling. Yeah, you really so you want to do things like that, right? Um, that's it's like it's the same thing with like even complimenting, like, hey, you look, you know, like I if I were to compliment, I think Karina always looks good, I really do. But you know, like you look exceptional today, I might say, right? Or compliment, you know, today she got a haircut. I said, Why I really do like your hair the way it came out. You did, you know, and she was saying how it got messed up working out, and I'm like, Well, it still looks good to me. I don't know, because she had worked out the other day.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's just so nice to hear, and it's like someone is actually paying attention. I think that's what it is, too, right? The little doesn't matter what it is, someone in your life is actually paying attention to you. To little, they either they're trying to figure out what you like and what makes you happy, but they are really they're thinking of you, they're thinking ahead, right? I think that is just that's such an incredible feeling.

SPEAKER_04

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

Also creating rituals and shared experiences. I feel like you and I are really good at that, right? We have little things that we like to do, we love to experience new things together, right? Right. Just this past weekend we went to this big indoor arcade, it had games, okay, so games, it had rides, all kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_04

And those that are local, it's it's called Funplex. You'll probably know that name.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but that was like an experience that and we both love experiences. My daughter loves experiences, so we we did that together, and that's something you'll appreciate so much, right? Yeah, to to experience these things with us and have fun. Like we all like kids again when we get to do that.

SPEAKER_04

And I don't I like experiencing things I've experienced before because it's different with you. For for one, it's not something I've experienced with you, but for two, I am I am so invested in you. I like bringing joy to your life. So I get to experience it, whether it's a movie I've seen already, but I never saw with you or doing something like that. It's it's it's a whole different experience when it's with someone that you love.

SPEAKER_03

Sure, 100%. Now let's let's get to this physical touch and affection, right? You mentioned sex.

SPEAKER_04

Well, we suck at that. Well, no, I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_03

We do not like physical touch.

SPEAKER_04

I'm teasing, we definitely do, we definitely do.

SPEAKER_03

But so for women out there, and there might be some men for sure, that are like, oh my god, he said I should just like have sex. No, so it is so important, and for me in past relationships, and that's what I always brought out with you, is that I was worried that this was going to fade, is don't stop kissing, don't stop touching each other, don't stop holding hands. It is just don't stop like running your hands through somebody's hair or head. It is just so important. That physical touch is so important. I heard um Dr. Estelle Perel, she's this incredible, um couple therapists, she's just amazing. But she said people can live without sex, but you really can't live without physical touch. Because we are why as humans, we are wired for that, for for human connection. But what happens is if your relationship, if the crack in your foundation has become so big, the last thing you want, right, is to touch somebody's shoulder, is to hold their hand, is to give them a kiss. You are so disconnected and repulsed, most likely, by this person, that the last thing you can think about is like, oh my God, are we gonna have no, that that's absolutely not going to happen, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So it's all the little small gestures.

SPEAKER_04

But it and in building intimacy, it's like, you know, sometimes what happens is people are on different schedules, we're always in a rush, and we stop touching. I don't we stop kissing goodbye, or it's a quick peck, it's nothing. You know, we when we get in the bed, we're we're on opposite sides of the bed, or whatever happens. And just by continuing to touch, you can continue to maintain that a level of intimacy. And that is something I was joking, but we do very well. I mean, we're always touching, and I don't think in a way where people would be uncomfortable, but If we're in public, we're holding hands. I mean, and it's not because we're in public, I'm just saying we're holding hands, you know. We're at Funplex, and I remember reaching back behind me, like not looking, but waiting for you to take my hand, you know, because we just hold hands. And that's something I never did in my early dating years. I would it was that was too that was too vulnerable for me. I wouldn't even do that. And now it's like I can't imagine I enjoy it so much. I I want to.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And if we're sitting, it's not like I have to be touching you all the time, but if I'm sitting near you, you know, for you know, I don't have to sit next to you at dinner and and or even if so, I eat my food, I'm not gonna have to be touching you. But oh, waiting for our food if we're sitting next to each other, sure, I'll hold your hand or put my hand on your your leg or you know, have my arm around you because I want to be contact in contact like that.

SPEAKER_03

It's a wonderful feeling, and you feel connected. And that's why, too, when we had that um really talk discussion, whatever you want to call it. I don't call it a fight, but we had the discussion Was it a fight? Misunderstanding. I wanted you to sit like directly across from me so I could look you in the eye.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, you in fact told me to I was sitting on your bed. You said no, you need to.

SPEAKER_03

I said no, I said come sit here so I could hold your hand and I can look in you. That is such a different feeling, right? Also, like I'm not come, I'm not attacking you, I'm not coming at you. Like, I just want to talk to you. And this is a and we always hold hands, so why are we not gonna hold hands as we're having this conversation? Right. So I think for me, I've never done that in the other relationships, but that is so important to me that you feel that connection, right? You don't feel like I'm pushing you away, you don't feel like, oh my god, what's going to happen? It's like we are just having a conversation, just like we do in in life in general, right? This is just a conversation that's a little harder because it's uncomfortable. But why aren't we still gonna be connected, right? And hold hands because that's what we do in general. Absolutely. And I think lastly, before we we do our fun little exercise, fun little exercise, um, celebrate, celebrate each other, whether it's anniversaries, right, milestones, little small wins in your relationship, make time for fun. Yeah, and and laugh. My God, you and I laugh so much, right? We make fun of ourselves, we laugh, we just make fun of each other. We do, and we are silly and goofy. It is so important because life in a very loving way. We do, yeah. Life can be so darn hard and serious, right? So it's like celebrate all those little things.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and you know, I I you were talking about like I saw anniversaries, whatever. You know, so many times people like we don't have any money, so we're not getting each other anything. You can make each other something, right? You can there's so many other things you can you can do something, right? You can uh, you know, where I live, there's actually like a field. So, okay, I don't have a lot of money, but I could get some co-cuts, uh, some bread, maybe some wine, and I can have you and a blanket, and we can go have a picnic outside.

SPEAKER_03

I was thinking about the other day. We need a picnic. We haven't done a picnic yet.

SPEAKER_04

I actually have a picnic basket, by the way.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, of course you do.

SPEAKER_04

But you know, like like that doesn't cost anything or very little, right? Or, you know, I mean, one of the things I did for Karina early on is like I guess was I wasn't thinking of it as a gift, but it was more about something I shared with her because I did it because it was for me. But I I made a playlist on my on uh on my Spotify account. I call it Karina's playlist, and it were songs that kind of expressed to me how I feel about her, and um, and I had it for a couple days, and I'm like, well, I should share it with Karina, and so I did. Um, and it turned into a gift. It was originally for me, it was these things that reminded me of her, but then I was like, well, who wouldn't want to know about a playlist that's so positive?

SPEAKER_03

I mean, that was like the best gift ever, and I got choked up about that too, and I was like, I can't nobody's ever made me a playlist, and just listening to the songs that you thought reminded you of me, like that was just the most incredible thing.

SPEAKER_04

My feelings for you, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And that was even before we said I love you, and yes early on in our relationship, and I was just blown away. So, like, you can absolutely come up with things, you can write each other a little note, leave little right, leave little notes every morning before you go to work, right? Right, leave it on the person's nightstand. Like, none of this has to cost anything.

SPEAKER_04

For my birthday, Karina typed up uh like 54 lines, it was and said 54 reasons that I love you. Yeah, put it into a machine jar. She cut each strip. I mean, that didn't cost anything, but yet it was one of, if not my favorite gift I got. So um, you know, these are ways to again increase the intimacy. There's always something else, you know. It it becomes very we're we're giving a gift card, it's like, okay, but what else? Or giving a card and it says really nice things, but is there a way to give more of yourself and express something more? Like if I were to draw Karina something, she'd be like, What's this crap? Like, I can't draw. Not, I mean, she wouldn't do that because it's for me, but I mean, uh, it would look like a kid's finger painting if I drew something for her, you know. It it that's not something I would want to give to you, but I can certainly make you a playlist or write things that I feel um, you know, even in cards. When I buy a card for Karina, I always make sure to add something personal that I feel besides what the card said, which I wanted, but I want to add something more.

SPEAKER_03

You're very good at that. So that is anything that comes from the heart is just so darn important, right? So let's get to the intimacy cards. So for Christmas, yes, this is our first Christmas together.

SPEAKER_04

Intimacy cards.

SPEAKER_03

And um, and that was my gift to you, really to us. So they're intimacy cards, and you really like them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I've actually recommended them quite a few times to couples I'm working with um in session. At first, if I'm being honest, I remember, you know, Karina got me these cards, I'm like, oh, these are great, I could use them in session, and then she's like, we could do some. I said, Yeah. And I and I was, I was, you know, I'm like, yeah, you know, and then the days when she she's like, Well, you want to do some of those intimacy cards? And I'm like, Yeah, and deep down, I'm like, no, I don't. I really don't. And so I said I would, and you know, pulled out, and these cards are they're great because you know, sometimes it's like this intimacy stuff where you're going like so deep or so it can be corny almost, and like you know, they're kind of pushing somebody to do or say things that they wouldn't normally do or say or feel comfortable doing. But these are just regular questions, but they do uh activate some intimacy.

SPEAKER_03

So and they're developed by um several different psychologists, and there's different topics, right? Different subjects. But what we're gonna do is we're just gonna pull one. One random and we just gonna pull it up.

SPEAKER_04

It's uh it's called best self-intimacy cards. You can get them on Amazon.

SPEAKER_03

Yep, you can.

SPEAKER_04

And so I need to put on my glasses to read this to Karina. We'll both answer it.

SPEAKER_03

We both need glasses, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, I want to pull a sexual one. Um but I mean it's something we kind of discussed, so I'm gonna pull something else.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, you're gonna pull something else. Yep.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03

We have to keep this like PG 13.

SPEAKER_04

This is a sexual one, so we won't use that one.

SPEAKER_03

No, of course. We gotta keep this PC3. PG 13. Here we go. This is Okay, here's one. Here's one, okay.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. What are three places in the world you want us to visit together and why?

SPEAKER_03

Bali has always been on the top of my list because I love the tropics. I love warms, and I just heard it is absolutely beautiful, and I would love to experience that with you. I just imagine it's just romantic and gorgeous and just fill it with happy people. So, Bali, for sure. I would love to take you to San Diego. I've been to San Diego once and I love it, and if I could afford it, I would move there and live there in a heartbeat. But people are just so happy, so calm. My best friend lives there, and I I would just I would absolutely love that. And thirdly, I think I would take you to Denmark where I'm from, and have you meet my family and my friends.

SPEAKER_04

I would love that.

SPEAKER_03

And and show you where I am from and where my roots are from.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, yeah. Um so for me, um, I would want to take you to um Paris, I think. I know it's kind of everybody talks about Paris and romance and all that, but I'd like to experience Paris, and I, you know, I'd like to experience that with someone special, just even if it's not all it's cracked up to supposed to be. I I just would like to do that. So I think I would say Paris is one because I've never been.

SPEAKER_03

I would love to go to Paris, me neither.

SPEAKER_04

Um, I would like to experience I think Italy with you. Um, Italy, my you know, I'm half Italian, so I've always wanted to go. My other half is like Spain and I think and whatever. That's sometimes I'd like to do that too. But um I'm a big fan of Spanish food, but I'm a big fan of Italian food. And so maybe I would put those two together so I could have one more. But those those are the two.

SPEAKER_02

Sure, you can put them together. They're close to it.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so Spain and and Italy together, because that's my heritage.

SPEAKER_02

Sure.

SPEAKER_04

Um, although I was born in America, and um, and then the last one, I um, hmm, it's a good one. Where would I want to take you and why? Um, I think if I think Hawaii probably, because you hear all these wonderful things about Hawaii, it's like the iconic trip besides like Europe or something. I know it's supposed to be just beautiful, uh calm, everything. Um so I'm curious about it. It's not a place I'd ever want to go alone or without a partner, but I would like it to be somebody that I was in love with. So I think I would say Hawaii. I mean I that might change, but yeah, for now I'm saying Hawaii.

SPEAKER_02

Love it. Love it.

SPEAKER_04

So, and you know, the reason I didn't read really quick the other cards, one was about a time when I one of us disappointed the other one. We just spoke about that, so I didn't think it was really that appoint that appropriate. Right. Uh, and then the other one we were keeping it PDG is what do you wish we did more of in our sex life? So I figured we'll skip that one as well. Yeah, so but they they're great cards. I mean, you know, things like this, talking about where you want to bring someone and why, why is it important? We didn't have any super deep reasoning, although I would love to see the con your country, your homeland.

SPEAKER_03

I know you would. And this is just we would not sit and come up with this, right? And be like, oh, name three places. So, so this is why I did I was so drawn to these cards. It's just I'm gonna I'm gonna learn so much about you, right, by asking you these questions. I'm gonna learn stuff about myself because these might not be things I ever thought about, right? And this is just a beautiful way just to to explore each other more and to expand yourself. So instead, and we we've used them in the car too, right? When we drove to Manhattan, I said to you, bring the cards, and then as you were drawing. That was good, we we were right.

SPEAKER_04

So it's we usually take turns, but she of course read them because I was driving. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It it's just it's just so fun, right? And again, no judgment about the answer. There's no one here, really? That's how you felt and no criticism. Yeah, no criticism. No, it shouldn't be. It's just like, oh, cool.

SPEAKER_04

It could be all. I didn't know that you felt that way.

SPEAKER_03

Or right, right.

SPEAKER_04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03

So just it's just a suggestion.

SPEAKER_04

I think about sharing dreams, you know, even if you're not using cards, like what you know, like we've talked about, you know, we've both talked about how we envision relationships, yeah. And how the other person has fit into that vision of the relationship. And um we've talked about where we see ourselves, you know, like Karina doesn't see herself in New Jersey in 15 years or no, whatever.

SPEAKER_03

No.

SPEAKER_04

Um, she thinks it's too cold.

SPEAKER_03

So too cold and too expensive, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It's expensive. It is very expensive, and I'm not married in. I like, I mean, I grew up here, but I am open to moving at some point as well.

SPEAKER_03

I'm so glad that you are. So just get yourself some intimacy cards, right? Find just different ways to connect, to keep getting to know each other, even if you've been married. This is especially if you've been married for a long time or in a relationship for a long time. Find new ways to explore and get to know each other.

SPEAKER_04

When we talk about these, this it doesn't mean you can't have your own sort of secrets, right? Or you're we all have things that are very personal. We may not share with anyone because we forgot about it, or it's just really important. It's not even things that we're ashamed of, it's just maybe something for us, right? Absolutely and so these aren't meant to break down every barrier, like you have to open up every vault in your system to this other individual, but most of them should be open, sure, and as a way to help open it and help you to feel more emotionally close with one another.

SPEAKER_03

So just when you and these are well, I mean, not this one wasn't that vulnerable, but most of them are really vulnerable, like you're sharing deep parts of yourself that you might not ever have shared with anyone else or even thought about, right?

SPEAKER_04

Talking about time I disappointed you, right? That was one of them, it's not that's not an easy card, but right, you know, those are not things we think of. We think of corn, like you know, just whatever. And it's like, you know what, these are real life, real things. So we haven't even gone through a third of these cards, but they've been great.

SPEAKER_03

They've been really great. So we hope this helped you. We hope that this might have given you some ideas of what I can do differently, what can I add to my life? What can I focus on, right? If things are stale, if you have a lot of cracks in your foundation, how do we go about filling those cracks out? And and again, I think for you and I, and this was nothing I ever imagined I would actually be living in in real time, is that you and I started out the way that we did, building this strong foundation and we continue to build, and we are not perfect and we have things and we're going to have things, but the way we've been able to approach it and talk about it has and repair has just been so just been so incredible and so helpful for my own healing. I keep saying to you, I have healed so much already in the past 10 months, just by being able to bring things up to you and have you hear it and have you listen and have you validate me and not just say, God, you freaking crazy. I can't believe you're thinking that. It and this is only something you can do in healthy relationships, right? You do, you do your work, I have to do my work. And then there are certain things that we have to do together in order for that to heal. And I think we have been really successful at doing that.

SPEAKER_04

And one of the things that I think drove our success was, and again, you were the throttle, was that we have very naturally progressed through stages of love, as they are. Right? The first one was was is infatuation, which is where everybody starts in a new relationship, right? It doesn't mean it will go anywhere else, but that's the exciting, over-the-top feeling, feeling high, the excitement, the better for the. And then understanding that as you go into the next stage, you're not gonna have that, which scared you. I did, but that it starts to deepen, and that's when you really start to feel the emotional and intimate intimate connections starting to really build. Yeah, that's where that work happens as we move through, and then you start to move into the next stage, and then you already have that foundation, foundational piece in place. And then when things get tough and things break down, now we have such a strong foundation that okay, there might be a little damage, but it's nothing we can't repair, just like with a house that's built well.

SPEAKER_03

Right. And what do you say with a bank account?

SPEAKER_04

Like we have enough deposits keep depositing in each other's emotional bank account or joint account.

SPEAKER_03

So because we have enough in there, right? It can withstand us having to do a big withdrawal because there's enough in there.

SPEAKER_04

And if there is a big withdrawal, there's funds for it for it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Right? We've because we've been depositing. So if the if I if I need to make a big withdrawal for some reason from your emotional funds, I've put enough in there that I'm gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_04

I may deplete them and then I start working on deposits again once things are better. But yeah, that's the whole line.

SPEAKER_03

But see, I don't think we ever get depleted if, and we can't do it every single day consciously, especially as we get into a longer relationship. But when we are just conscious of depositing, right, little things, it doesn't matter what it is, little things into our account, we're never ever going to be fully depleted because we don't want to get to the point where we are depleted, right? No, we don't want to keep withdrawing and then be like, well, whatever, I'm gonna get to it when I want. It's it's again of a daily, almost daily choice is how can I deposit, just like you said, how can I add value to your life every single day? So we are not going to all of a sudden wake up one day and have an empty account and be like, shit, what do we do now? Right. And I think that is for me, I just I love that analogy so much that that is like incredible. Is we both we both have to do that together. And we are we have both decided that that's what we want to do. Absolutely. And that is what's so different about this relationship for me.

SPEAKER_04

And by the way, if if your partner's not, that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Because at some point, if this is going to be a healthy relationship that's gonna work, they will start to make those deposits as well. But you're still making deposits because they're they're withdrawing, it's what they're withdrawing from the account, is what they're doing. And hopefully, if they're at some point they will re-engage in the deposits again, and in a healthy relationship, they will.

SPEAKER_03

They will if they're interested.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and so we're just gonna keep talking.

SPEAKER_03

So keep talking. Thank you everyone for listening. If you like this episode, please give us a five-star rating and a review because it just really helps getting the podcast out there for people to hear. And if you don't want to miss an episode, just hit the three buttons on the upper right-hand corner and click on follow. And then every Monday, 6 p.m. 6 a.m. 1 p.m. 6 a.m. Eastern, a new episode will drop and you will be notified.

SPEAKER_04

It should pop up in your notifications. Yeah, and you can just click on it.

SPEAKER_03

You click on it, and um, that would just help the podcast keep going and moving. Yes. So thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you very much.