Crave To Connect | Building Better Relationships

Attachment Styles | Crave To Connect | Ep16

• Karina and Michael • Season 1 • Episode 16

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Crave To Connect is a candid, honest, and sometimes hilarious conversation about the messy realities of relationships.Hosted by Karina Paxton, a certified clinical EFT practitioner, and a trauma informed coach, and...

Michael Calderon, a licensed clinical social worker (LSCW) and a licensed clinical alcohol and drug counselor (LCADC) specializing in mental health, addiction, and relationship dynamics

The goal is simple: Real conversations about real life and real real relationships.

With their unique backgrounds in trauma recovery, therapy, and emotional healing, Karina and Michael bring two different perspectives to topics like toxic relationships, healing, personal growth, and understanding human behavior. 

Expect relaxed conversations, unexpected insights, and the occasional awkward moment, because that’s what real conversations look like.

Pull up a chair, get comfortable, and join the conversation.


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https://linktr.ee/liveyourlife.coach

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https://calendly.com/liveyourlife-coach/30-minute-discovery-call-helena-guest

Michael Calderon:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/michael-calderon-hackettstown-nj/1044394


SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Crave to Connect with your hosts, Karina, the recovering men hater, and Mike, the former emotionally unavailable therapist. Sit back, get comfortable, and relax. Our whole vibe with this podcast is to casually dive into all the messy, hilarious, and sometimes confusing parts of relationships. Whether it's with yourself, other humans, no pressure, just good chats and maybe some awkward moments. Hi everyone, welcome to Crave to Connect. Today we are going to talk about attachment styles.

SPEAKER_04

Yep, and how they impact relationships. Um very impactful, in fact. And there's four different types.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And we also really want to get into how attachment styles are formed. I think this is fairly new to me. I think up until a couple years ago, I really didn't understand attachment styles. I certainly didn't understand what my attachment style was. But once I began researching and I read books about it, and it's just fascinating, right? Like knowledge is powered, like to understand why do I react the way I do in relationship and why do I keep repeating the same patterns over and over again? And that is because you the way you attach is either secure, which is what we really, all of us, hopefully want, right? That's what we want to strive through to be secure, and we're gonna talk about what that means. Or there's an anxious attachment style, avoidant and disorganized. So understanding what that really means for yourself, I think it just gives you such a great it's just knowledge to be like, oh, no wonder I act this way in relationships.

SPEAKER_04

Right, and how it impacts relationships or even you know, just how you handle things in general in the in relationships, why you know you may have a particular pattern response to things.

SPEAKER_03

That's right.

SPEAKER_04

Um it's amazing, and it all stems back from our infancy and growing up, but especially those developmental years, and there's been tons of research and a lot of momentum um in the last 10 to 20 years, and attachment styles and how it impacts us and how the brain develops in that regard, it's fascinating stuff.

SPEAKER_00

And that's so important to remember is that it is all ingrained, right? It's a learned behavior, and it's all based on, it's all shaped on our childhood experiences and how we grew up in the home we grew up in with our caregivers and people around us that really influenced us.

SPEAKER_04

And to be fair, in very, very rare circumstances, it is possible for a child to have very secure caregivers and yet still have a very insecure or disorganized attachment style, which would that, you know, we know in mental health that environmental plays an enormous factor, but we also know biological does too, genetics, but we don't know to what extent because we're we haven't really been able to identify the genes to study it on what causes certain things. But, you know, when we look at patterns in families or we look at individuals, we can see that. So in this case, most likely it's formed from the environment and and the caregivers the way they parent. Um, but there is a possibility, some rare circumstances, where somebody could develop uh an insecure, disorganized attachment.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. I mean, so our caregivers' main responsibility, right, is to fill us up, to fill up the children that they take care of with a really healthy dose of self-confidence, just as like in a knowing. Um, and they do that by being really like consistent and by being loving, not by being perfect because nobody is. That's not what that is about.

SPEAKER_04

Not by giving them everything they want.

SPEAKER_00

No, but that's that's not what that is either, right? And it is, it is there is there is no book out there that's gonna explain to you exactly how to do that. And most of us um were never raised like that, we're never raised with consistent, loving parents, right? It there might have been little glimmers, and I'll I'll speak for myself. There might have been, you know, little periods where that I remember in my childhood where, oh, that felt really good when we did that together. It was something that I was excited about and like I look forward to, and I could anticipate that that was happening. But I would say 90% of my childhood was very inconsistent. There was so much chaos, there was so much drama, there were so many high and lows. And as a child, when you grow up in that environment, you never know what to expect.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And you and you can never, your nervous system can never fully relax, your brain can never fully relax because you are just on heightened alert for for what else is going to happen, what's going to be next, what do I have to do? So you take on these like coping mechanisms, right? These like survival skills of either I have to be just super tough, and that was me. I just I had this like invisible shield all over my body and especially around my heart. And so so I wouldn't get hurt too, but also so I wouldn't feel all the stuff that was going on, and I never felt like I had an adult that I could go to and say, My gosh, I'm feeling really anxious, I'm feeling really stressed, I'm feeling really sad. There was no one that I could do that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I could go to. And the way I grew up, I mean, I had a very solid, what we call a solid object in therapy, which was my mom. Um she was quite consistent. Um, you know, and she was, you know, it was a difficult it was difficult for us growing up. Um my dad was not happy. He was immature in his relationship with my mother when we were ch when we were kids. He was our uh you know, sole provider as far as finances. They had made the decision for my mom to stay home. She went back to work when I was 13, um, and my sister was 12. And um they had problems in their marriage, so my dad did not like being home, would come home. We never knew what was gonna happen from day to day. We didn't even sometimes know what time he was gonna come home. And we just um so there was that I had this person in my life who was very consistent, very loving, gave me boundaries. He definitely, you know, grounded me when I was at, you know, she really provided as much structure as she possibly could. And then my dad was a force that undermined all of that structure. And he would come home in rages, um, and it would turn the whole house upside down. And my mom did all of that being, you know, being emotionally abused by my father. Yeah, he abused all, you know, he's abused all of us emotionally with that behavior and and just the way he was at the time. Um thankfully he's not that way now, but that's how I was growing up. So I had a little different than you, where I did have some consistency, but I had such a force undermining that consistency.

SPEAKER_00

And so, you know, it was almost like a wash, I imagine, right? Like your mom was there to anger you, and then here comes the storm, which was your father, and then you got swept, right? Like offshore again, and then you had to get back.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, not a wash. Um, because I would say not a wash. You know, my mom used to say, you know, everything I did, I tried to, and yet the negativity and negative is stronger than the positive oftentimes. Especially as we're developing, right? It's really easy to it's very difficult to feel good about oneself for one reason or another. It's very easy to feel bad about oneself.

SPEAKER_03

100%.

SPEAKER_04

And that's why they say, you know, um, I think I'm quoting Dr. Phil here, um, when he says, for every horrible thing or negative thing you've done or said, it takes a thousand vataboys to undo just one. And so there wasn't balance because of that kind of because I do I agree with with that statement. Um, when you say some horrible things or do horrible things to your kids, it it takes more than one good deed to undo it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. It really does. It's and and I think you and I speak for a lot of of people out there, our generation, right? That experienced um a lot of that because again, our parents, that generation, did not know what we know now. No, they had their own trauma that they were dealing with, they had their own pre-programmed beliefs and thoughts. And um, and I mean it's hard now being a parent, but I can't imagine back then when there was absolutely no information available.

SPEAKER_04

We didn't even know what interational trauma was back then. That wasn't a term that was used. And it and that's a real yeah, interrational, intergenerational trauma is a reality. There are paths, we can, you know, as a therapist, we use a tool called genograms, which is your family tree, shows everything about your family, relationships, it shows mental illness, other illnesses, types of relationships, if they're conflictual, all the stuff. It shows all the warts, all the good things. And when you look through, if you're able to put together comprehensive genogram, um you will see patterns throughout the family. It's amazing. And it can go back seven generations, can go back even farther, but it often does go back seven generations.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and that's the scary part because we have no idea what happened, right? Even one or two generations below us, and so seven, right? So this is something genetically that can be carried on and passed on to us through our mother.

SPEAKER_04

Right. We learn this behavior, which is often people who are abused go on to abuse. Why? Yeah, because that's how they learned how to parent, right? Right. And so I, you know, we know that now, which if people are aware of it and you know, and and they can become aware of it at an early age, it's hard, but they can stop that that trauma from continuing, they can change it the the course of the family.

SPEAKER_00

Break the cycle.

SPEAKER_04

Break the cycle, that's the worst, thank you.

SPEAKER_00

And that's never that's never too late, but you have to have the insight that it is possible, right? And you're going to have to want to do the work, which is not easy in order, in order to really break that, right?

SPEAKER_04

But and to also have the recognition and the does and then the desire to do that, right? Because it's hard to recognize sometimes this is what you do, because this is what I've learned. I mean, the most important teacher in any child's life is their parents.

SPEAKER_03

100%.

SPEAKER_04

We they have more influence and they learn more, and we, as all of us, we learn by modeling, meaning what our parents do, don't tell me it's not do as I say, not as I do. You we do as you do.

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_04

And we follow that.

SPEAKER_00

We they watch, right? So so when you when you have if you have a consistent, loving family home, that really fosters secure attachment, right? So secure attachment means that you feel you feel good in your body, not perfect all the time, but you feel good in who you are, right? You know that you are, you know, a great person, you are kind, you you have knowledge, you can take care of yourself, you know how to solve conflict, you know that you so it's sort of like a balance, right? So when I think of secure, it's like you are a somewhat balanced person that can handle whatever comes to you in life, right? And I want to hear what your definition of secure is. So when when life throws you off, because it will, because it's life, right? It's like you know how to stand up for that. You know that your words are impeccable, right? Most of the time, hopefully all the time. You know that you say what you mean, right? You know that you are solid within yourself. Me, what I'm trying to say is you are not waddling, nobody can really come to you and say, I I what are you saying? No, I don't, that's not true of what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04

Well, you have confidence in in yourself, and even if you're not sure, you're still confident, yeah, but also confident enough to be able to acknowledge if you're wrong, right?

SPEAKER_03

Sure.

SPEAKER_04

And I think in order for that security to be developed, when you think of what does a household look like that that fosters that it's you know, certainly support, right, encouragement, um, structure, but also, you know, holding holding uh the child accountable, the children in the house accountable and teaching them the things that they need. I mean, a parent, and I think I said this in our last podcast, if we broke it down to least common denominator, the most important thing a parent does, if we have some of it one sentence, is to get their children ready for life without them.

SPEAKER_03

100%.

SPEAKER_04

And we spend 18 or more years doing that, typically more. I mean, very few kids leave home at 18.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Uh they may go to college, which is kind of like leaving the nest a little bit and then coming home. But so we want to teach them to be accountable, teach them right from wrong. We don't want to abuse them or take our anger out on them. We want to provide structure. And all of these things are fluid, right? I mean, if you if okay, if you go through a time where something happens and you don't have the same structure, is it harmful to a child? Yeah, but is it gonna ruin their life? No. I mean, as long as we can rebuild that structure and repair. Because things happen in life, knock us off balance, knock us off balance, so that's gonna knock our children off balance 100%. And so I think you know, showing respect and integrity and appropriately holding them accountable with reason with reasonably accountable, whatever that looks like, whether you're talking about grounding them or you know, acknowledging or appointing, whatever, you know, that's up to the parents as they do that. But that would be and it, and then the child will all often be able, they will function in the world, things won't rattle them. Yeah, they'll have very stable, balanced foundation. Um, they'll be you know, well-rounded, they'll have integrity typically, and um, you know, they'll be able to get through life. It's like when something knocks them off, they're not gonna tip over, they're gonna, okay, I'm I'm off balance, but then I'll get my footing again. And I think uh to me, I don't know if I left anything out, but that's what a secure household looks like.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I I really I really like that description, and also that you can be yourself in your household, right? That you are respected and you are loved for who you are, that you can show up in your family and you can express exactly how you feel, and you are heard. I feel I think being heard is so important that you are heard and you are seen and you are valued.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm allowed to di disagree with you and still hear and value you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right. But like you you're part of it, like you are an important part of the family because you are here with us. So when a child feels that, and it and it again, it's not like oh my gosh, they always have to be right, it has nothing to do with that. It's just you're this child in a secure environment can show up as them fully, right? And they can they can know it's safe to disagree, right? They can know it's safe to agree, they know it it's safe to express how they feel, what they like, what they don't like. There's room for them to show all of their feelings and emotions, and it's safe to feel all of it, right?

SPEAKER_04

Right, and as parents, when we do disagree or one of those things, we do it with respect. Yeah, we do it where we do not diminish their value, yeah. Because, again, like we said, modeling. If I if you do that with your daughter, guess what your daughter is gonna do? Yeah, and she does, I see it all the time. The same thing. She's gonna be able to disagree with respect, yeah, not demean somebody because they don't see it her way.

SPEAKER_00

I have to get someone else on their side, right? She's not gonna be the kind of kid that's like you have to agree with me because my opinion is the only correct one. Because it's not. No, everyone has their own opinion, right? And it should all be respected. So I just always come back to in a when you are in a secure home, you are seen, you are loved, you are valued, you are heard for who you are with everything that comes with you. All the ups and downs, happy feelings, sad feelings, all of it is is invited, all of it is okay, all of it is is welcomed.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, and one thing that just came to mind that I agree with everything you just said, but there are times because we're all human when that may not occur, when a parent may not do those things. So it's very important, well, excuse me, it's very important for the parent to acknowledge when they mess up and apologize. Yeah. I mean, if a parent's apologizing all the time, then they're a bit insecure and looking for validation from the child usually, and that's not that's not healthy. No, but if we mess up, and we're going to, it's important that we acknowledge, hey, you know what I was wrong? Yeah, I'm truly sorry. I'm sorry I made you feel that way. You're excellent doing that with your daughter. Thank you. And it and that again models that security. It's secure. Somebody who can apologize is secure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

When somebody has trouble saying they're sorry, there it there's an insecurity about that.

SPEAKER_00

Because you want to take responsibility for your stuff, especially when you mess up, right? And I I just I I love I call that repair. It's that I can come to my daughter and say, you know what? I did not handle that well. I am sorry. I raised my voice. I'm sorry I said that to you. That was not my intention. I'm really working on that. And what we've got to be so careful of is not to say, but I got so I I raised my voice because you has nothing to do with that, right? It's like being able to take accountability for that and and what else own it. Own what you do, own your own shit, right? And but so what that does is my child is going to be able to look at me and be like, she's my mother, but she's not perfect. Yeah, that's amazing. I don't have to be perfect either, right? Because, like you said, they model everything you do. Like I can make mistakes and I can apologize, and it's okay, because we don't ever, ever want to pretend. And I I have a friend whose daughter, she has a grown daughter, who said to her when she was in a teenager year, she says, You are always so perfect. I can never live up to your expectations and how you handle the world. And she's like, But I'm not. But she was never vulnerable enough to show her children that she was wrong, that the decision she made was not right. She would literally hide it inside herself. She would never share anything about her childhood and how she messed up and whatever mistakes she made because she felt like if I did that, maybe that'll give them ideas to, oh my God, I'm gonna do that too. She did not understand that being honest, you know, child appropriate, age appropriate, but being honest and sharing, especially when we mess up and we fall down, is so important for them because they want to see that. They want to see that.

SPEAKER_04

And I think you said something important secure relationships, secure attachments, there's healthy repair.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

There is all because we mess up, right? Even in a marriage or a romantic relationship, if you read the Gottmans, they always talk about repair.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Right. And there's healthy ways to repair it. It doesn't mean you got to dive into everything. Sometimes it's, you know, you're in a stupid argument, whether it's with your child or someone else, and one of you starts laughing, and then because it's stupid, and then the other person just all of a sudden it just evaporates, right? It's it's not unresolved. It was something, it wasn't something important to begin with. We fight about silly things sometimes, you know, about what color a paint is on the wall. Who cares?

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Right. I mean, so um it's important to have that healthy repair, like you said. And I I love that you said that, it's true. Um, in relationships, which also, no matter what, helps to build secure attachment. By the way, as we're moving through of these, if anyone listening is like, well, I wasn't, I was definitely not brought up to have secure attachment, and you know, I'm gonna mess up my kid or something. No, it's never too late to develop a healthier attachment. In fact, there is a therapy that's used by therapists called attachment. Um well, it's an attachment-based therapy. I'm I'm blanking on the exact name, but where they work to help the client develop a healthy attachment with them in the hopes that they can then take that and then generalize it into other relationships.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, never, never too late to work towards becoming secure. Absolutely not. So we talked about secure a lot. So, what happens when you live in an inconsistent environment, right? That's neglectful, or your caregivers are just unresponsive and they are hot and cold, right? And that can really lead to to being anxious, avoidant, or disorganized, which is what we're gonna get into now, right?

SPEAKER_04

So or even absent, right? It could be, I mean, there are people out there who um come from a a single mother home, and the mom's got all three jobs to to to secure uh to be able to live. And she may not be available. And you know, if there's a number of kids, often the adult child will take on that role and that caregiver, and if they do it well, they can provide it. But that can cause any any of these anxious or avoidant or Disorganized, and it's it's not necessarily mom's fault. She's doing what she has to to make ends meet, yeah, so they could just survive.

SPEAKER_00

That's a really good point. Absolutely. Families come in so many different shapes and forms, right? 100%. And it could also go the other way, right? I um I certainly know families who, you know, are very, very well off, very affluent. They live in, you know, fancy houses. The parents don't have a home. The parents travels, the parents are busy with their businesses. So child these children are raised, right, by nannies a lot of times. So these are parents that, you know, they have everything financially. Whatever they want, they never they are they never right, whatever it is that need is met. Whatever they need, whatever they want, whatever the newest thing is, but they don't have that emotional connection because their parents are very busy living their life in a different way, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

And that happens too.

SPEAKER_04

Although, although, even in those situations, if they connect, if they create a real healthy attachment with the nanny, oftentimes that will then show up later in life for them as well, right? The nanny, it's whoever the caregiver is, but oftentimes a nanny's doing a job. I'm not saying I know nannies often show lots of love, but it's not the same, and they often leave. It's not the that they're not usually live in, right? But with a very wealthy family that can afford that. There are times where these kids really attach with a very healthy caregiver and a nanny, and still are can create secure attachments, but often it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00

But they just don't have that with their parents, right? Like my own experience, I was an au pair. That's how I came to this country for family for a year. And that's really what happened. The parents were so busy, they all had they both had their own business, and they were out of the house like 45 hours a week at least. So I was their the children's primary caregiver. And I, as a 19-year-old, that was my responsibility to fill all of their buckets.

SPEAKER_04

It's hard for you to do that at 19. You're growing up now, right? Because when we think of a uh a nanny or an old pair that fills those buckets, we think of an older woman that does this for a living. But oftentimes, younger women do this, and you're growing up with these kids in a way.

SPEAKER_00

I was a child too, and I had no idea about any of this, or what was expected of me, or how you foster healthy children.

SPEAKER_04

And you were new to the country, which made it even harder for you to do those things, right? So you're learning to be motherly as a 19-year-old and trying to figure out how to navigate a totally different country. It's very complicated.

SPEAKER_00

It was it was absolutely in New York. Exactly, in New York. I mean, this add New York to it. And I wanted to have fun at the same time because I was 19 years old. Right, Brooklyn. So you were in the middle of the I had the best time. So it was it it it's a lot, right? It is a lot out there. So should we get into the different attachment styles?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so what was next? The attack we talked about secure, right?

SPEAKER_00

So being secure, right, is just being comfortable with closeness in any kind of relationship. It could be intimate, it could be with your friends, with family members, whatever, and and that you have trust, right? That you trust that you can show up as you in a secure relationship, that other people can disagree with you without you having to mold yourself into a chameleon or take back what you said because you worry that you're gonna hurt other people's feelings.

SPEAKER_04

And you can trust others appropriately, right? Not like you're gonna trust every word that anyone says, but you have appropriate trust. You're not somebody who doesn't trust anybody, and you're not somebody who's just gonna take everything at at its face value either. And really what we're describing is what a healthy relationship, a person who is ready for a healthy relationship.

SPEAKER_00

And also, I think the biggest one for me was to understand not to take everything personally. Yes. Like when you're when you have the secure, when you're when you feel secure, you have a secure attachment style, people can tell you things, and your brain is not a man go, oh my god, that's because of me. Right? Your brain might be like interesting and be curious instead, and then get to understand is oh, this is probably this person's own thing. This is probably what they're going through. Maybe it's past relationship, past experiences. But before I became secure, that was not where my brain went. Immediately, if someone would say something to me that, you know, either they would disagree or they would express a feeling or emotion, immediately I was like, Oh my god, it's my fault. Like, what did I do? This is absolutely horrible, right? But when you're secure, you pause and you go, That's interesting. Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_04

Definitely. Or if somebody is trying to make it personal, you realize that this isn't personal. It's not about you, it's not about you. When when people react to you, it's based on their past experiences. Yeah. And so, um, yeah, and I was just like you. I took everything personally. I made, I took, if something went wrong, I volunteered to take the blame, which people were all too happy to give to me. You know, like whether it was at a job or uh, you know, I messed up. Um I can remember um I messed something up unintentionally and I offered to pay for it, and I wasn't even making a lot of money. You know, luckily the person I worked for wouldn't allow me to do that. But I mean, that's that you know, that's somebody who's got insecure, you know, is insecure attachment or an anxious type of attachment, which is our next one, anxious attachment.

SPEAKER_00

And one more thing I want to add, also when you are secure, you can accept feedback, right? You want to constantly learn, wow, I I said that, that's how I reacted. That's so interesting. That was not my intention. Like, you want feedback as a secure person to know how you can constantly consistently grow and get better and improve yourself constantly.

SPEAKER_04

And you're able to filter out sometimes, people give feedback in a selfish way to try and get something they want. And somebody who is secure, not always, but more often than not, they could filter out through those things, right? And take out what's valuable and then kind of you know, throw away what's not from a healthy person, right?

SPEAKER_00

So so I think what I was trying to say is when you're in a secure relationship, that's what you're able to do. You're able to come to each other, you're able to give each other constructive feedback and learn from that, but you don't take it personally, you don't try to change yourself just because oh my god, I feel like I have to, right? It's it's just a secure in you that I'm not perfect, I'm constantly growing and evolving. I'm here to learn, I'm here to understand things about myself because I can't see everything because I'm looking from the inside out.

SPEAKER_04

Right. And help and last thing on secure people with secure attachments forgive themselves.

SPEAKER_00

That's really good.

SPEAKER_04

They're able to forgive themselves for whatever they've done and they say, okay, I'm gonna do better next time.

SPEAKER_00

That's really good. That's really good. Let's talk about anxious. That was my attachment style. I was a hundred percent an anxious person. So when you're anxious, you need reassurance all the time. Oh my goodness, I couldn't get enough of that. I would constantly, is this okay? Do you like that? Do you not like this? What else can I do? I wanted feedback all the time.

SPEAKER_02

All the time.

SPEAKER_00

I was so worried about abandonment. Oh my gosh. So I would do so. When I felt like people were, especially in relationships, if they were pulling back, I would do everything I could to just like run after them. I would chase, I would run, I would beg, I would do whatever. Because for an anxious person, being alone is like one of the scariest things in the world. Like you would rather be so I would rather be so unhappy than really to be alone. I just, I couldn't stand it. And and just and at the same time, even though I thought I wanted relationship so bad, I was always worried about it. Is this really true? Is that is this true love? Is does this person really love me? Nobody loved me for me because I was never me. I was always trying to-be what they wanted. Exactly. I was always trying to be someone else from this person, right? So it's the whole the chasing. I just remember the constant chasing and being so worried about being abandoned that I would just accept breadcrumbs, I would accept whatever because it was better than being alone.

SPEAKER_04

And that's often caused in a in a home where you're not shown value. You may be kind of treated as excess instead of important. Um, you may be, if you have a narcissist parent, you're trying to find ways to please them. So the only time you get a reward is when you do please them, and then you feel rejection otherwise, which creates that sense of fear fearing abandonment, um, but also creates people pleasers, right? Where you base your value on how much you could do for others, and you do very little for yourself. And so these are often this this type of attachment is often fostered by one or two or both narcissistic parents.

SPEAKER_00

Or toxic people, right? Parents were definitely both toxic in their own way, and and um, yeah, and just never being appreciated for who you are.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Yep, and um it it it causes people to be anxious and you know, wanting to hold on and they chase, and um, you know, it's funny, I think I was as a very young person like that in some ways, because you know, growing up, I I explained my child what what my home was like, but then when I I brought up another podcast, when I went to like I didn't have an emotional safe place because when I went to school, I was bullied non-stop. I was you know abused by other kids, sometimes physically, mostly emotionally, nothing was safe. I mean, I had one friend growing up, um, and we weren't like together all the time, and he was bullied too, you know. Um, and so it was really difficult. So I had this anxious attachment at that time, and then I guess it, you know, it uh started to see some tendencies in myself at 13, believe it or not, where I I did not like what I was, I didn't like what I was feeling and seeing. And there was a time where I I nearly did something, and uh I stopped myself, and I thought to myself, wow, I'm behaving just like my dad.

SPEAKER_02

Really?

SPEAKER_04

And I don't want to. And I from that point forward, as I said, growing up, my dad, by the way, my dad grew up with us too. He was um 20, my mom was 24, my dad was 25 when they had me. So you know, I did not want to be like him and the way he was behaving when we were young and living home with us, and so I made a decision, and I think with that decision, I could be wrong, but I started to become avoidant. And I I didn't want, you know, my dad always had this anxious attachment. Uh still does.

SPEAKER_00

Before we move on to avoidant, I just want to add when you are anxious, you are a perfect magnet for avoiding people, avoidant people, and also people that just likes to take and take and take, which is why a lot of us that are anxious end up in toxic narcissistic relationships, because all we want is just to give so we can be loved. We think if we give, we're going to be loved.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

And someone who's toxic and narcissistic, all they want to do is take.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So that was the constant dynamic I found myself in. The more I gave, the more they took.

SPEAKER_04

And you know, it's interesting in romantic relationships. When I had, I would be avoidant, but then when I got into a relationship where I thought I liked the person I committed, it would kind of go the other way around. And it, you know, so like all of a sudden it became quite needy and people pleasing. And you know, I just lost myself and trying to make them happy, and I never did. It was always another thing that was wrong. And um, yeah, so it was it's a you know, I disorganized, we'll get into that, but that's a a mix. But based on what the meaning of disorganized is that wasn't quite, but if I guess you would call me a mild disorganized attachment style, which by the way, we we can shift and change through life because I would consider myself securely attached now. But I, you know, and again, that's why therapists will use that attachment theory in in sessions to help create that or help a client to achieve that. But you know, as an avoidant, I would always be quick to run, right? I'm not gonna nobody's gonna make no girls gonna get the best of me. You know, I'm not committing to them, I'm doing my thing, I'll hang out with them. But you know, and it was a fear of uh, you know, abandonment in a way, but a fear of they're gonna leave, so you know, so I'm not attaching to them.

SPEAKER_00

But also, so when you're avoidance, um I don't know if we skipped over that too fast, but when you're avoidant, you really value your independence, right? Like the idea of being being sucked into a relationship is just so uncomfortable. Like just being intimate is like, right? You're like you're gonna give yourself you're gonna give whatever it is that you want, but really not yourself fully, right? You're gonna give a little bit so you and that's also a defense mechanism, so you won't get hurt, right? So you give yourself a tiny bit and avoidant, like you said, that was yours, right?

SPEAKER_04

And there's distance, right? Emotional, fit, sometimes physical, right? Sometimes you'll date somebody that's not accessible, right? People who are avoidant might date a married individual, they might date somebody in another state that they can't access easily. Yes. Um, and you know, for me, yeah, I was. And when you the thing you were talking about, I I never was even comfortable holding hands with anybody.

unknown

Really?

SPEAKER_04

No, I would never do that. Um, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't comfortable in showing a lot of even even though my love language is physical touch, I didn't do a lot of that, especially in public. You know, um, and you know, so I yeah, it was it was very interesting. Um and part of that was like to try and get them more interested because I didn't think I was enough. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00

It's like a game.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it was a game. You know, I I hated playing, but then I was like, well, everyone else is playing and you you keep losing. So then I tried to learn how to play.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I mean, I don't I wouldn't say I was like great at it. I was, you know, like I I knew how to maneuver through it, but I wasn't, it wasn't like it was like something I mastered, which um it's just not me, really. I was I was doing something that wasn't me for a long time.

SPEAKER_00

But I think for you too, what you taught what we talked about a lot when we first met on the phone, especially was and you were very honest, right? How you were avoidant, and that you didn't want to, you didn't want to be avoidant because you really wanted a relationship where you could show up as you fully. You wanted to be able to express yourself how you wanted to, right? Without being afraid that you were gonna be judged, that you were gonna be hurt, that right, you didn't think you could find it, but that I don't and I remember when you said avoidant, I was like, Are you kidding? No, not doing that, because that's who I used to attract, right? As the anxious as the former anxious person, I would I would attract somebody who was avoidant who would who would dip their toes in a little bit, or maybe in the beginning, right? That's what a toxic person does too. They pretend they jump in, right? Everything is so escalated real quick so they can get you. An anxious person loves that. An anxious person is like, oh my god, this person sees me for who I am 100%, and they want to give me all the things, but then the avoidant person is like, uh-uh, I'm backing up, I'm backing up. This is getting too close, it's getting too intimate. I don't really know how to give, or I don't want to give, and you're not gonna get me. So it's this constant game all the time, which is which is freaking.

SPEAKER_04

I didn't dive in, I was like, Oh, I'll come in, and then I'd pull out, and then you'll get it. You know, and like well, I would just, you know, like I I would give morsels. I I wasn't one to jump in because I I was really afraid, I think obviously afraid of being hurt, but also I you know, I felt like a time there were in the past that I looked foolish because of allowing myself to feel something and showing it, and then the the girl like just walked away. Yeah, and that happened, you know, I guess when I was young, and also, you know, especially before high school when I was bullied, like if I liked a girl, they obviously did not like me back. And so I, you know, I did that's how I kind of learned to do this. Um that and you know, my uncle, he he was somebody who never attached, you know, and he was really good at the game, and so sometimes he would tell me stuff, and he's like, you know, he goes, When you don't care, they like you more. Oh gosh, you know, and so I took that to heart, you know, and especially while he was always with beautiful women, he dated many women, and I was like, you know, so then I kind of wanted to be like him, you know. And interestingly enough, he he was, you know, unfortunately, my uncle died tragically at 44 in a motorcycle accident, but he was getting to a point in his life where he didn't want that life anymore. No, he, you know, but yet he didn't know how to settle down. He he couldn't figure out how to settle down because he was avoidant completely. And um he was just trying, he found somebody it looked like maybe he'd want to, and then he passed away, um, which was unfortunate. But you know, I knew I always wanted to, but I didn't know how to find it.

SPEAKER_00

So let's talk about that, right? Like how so if you find yourself out there listening to these, going, yep, I am definitely anxious, or I'm avoidant, or I'm disorganized, right? Mix between do you avoid and disorganized.

SPEAKER_04

Right. It's pretty intense. That really quick before your point, the disorganized is a mix between avoidant and anxious. And you know, one of the things that um came to mind for me, I've I've worked with a lot of individuals who have borderline personality disorder, which is basically nearly they nearly changed it the name of that in the DSM 5 to a attachment disorder, believe it or not. Um, but they chose not to. Um, and what that is with with borderline, they have this intense fear of abandonment. And so what it causes them to do is it like causes them to push and pull and relate, they pull you in, they're constantly questioning you, you're cheating on me because they need to feel secure, then you help them to feel secure. But then if but then at times, if they're feeling insecure, they may not do all that questioning and intensify it that way, they'll push you away. They might leave you before you leave them. It's not that they want to break up with you, right? You'll never know that, but they will because they're feeling that you're gonna go, whether that's a manufactured fear because of their own the way they see things and their you know, their disorder or what might be real. So it's a pretty intense thing, usually disorganized. But anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt it.

SPEAKER_00

No, and and just and again, it's just important to understand that all of this, especially disorganized, right, comes from from trauma, right? So what you grew up with. So it's just there's nothing wrong with you. So just please understand that that if you can identify with any of these and you're like, oh my god, why am I like this? You are like that because that was just what you developed. This is what the role you took on in order to survive and move on in life.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. It's a survival tactic. Yeah, and you can change it. You can absolutely it's not easy, but you absolutely can because I can honestly say, and you know, Karina, you would know best. I mean, I feel like I I'm securely attached now.

SPEAKER_00

You absolutely are, yeah. But let's let's talk about that. Do you want to share a little bit about what you did? Like, how did you get to be, how did you go from avoided to secure? How did you do that work?

SPEAKER_04

So, you know, for me, it all it started uh in COVID. Um I would spend a lot of time alone. I live alone. Um my work, I did virtual therapy, but during the time of COVID, I I basically I saw my mom sometimes. I had a friend who I would see once in a while, um, and that was it. Um and I was determined when it all started, I was gonna make this positive. First thing I said is I hadn't cleaned my attic in five years. It was a disaster and overwhelming. Every time I went up there, and I said, I remember saying, I'm like, okay, the world has stopped. You have no excuses. You I'm like, I'm gonna have to kick my own ass if I don't do this. Like, this, there's no, I I gotta make this happen. And so I did it incrementally instead of trying to tackle it all. I said, I'm gonna spend an hour and I picked days, and then at the end of the hour, I gave myself permission to stop. If I wanted to continue, I would never want to continue until the last day because I was almost done. Took me, I think, four or five days. And I did a lot of walking, you know. I did, I made my my like most of like many people did, my living room became my gym and my living room, and then to do cardio, I'd go for these long walks through where we live in the in the neighborhood. And then without really meaning to, I started to do a ton of self-reflection. And one day I was walking and I'm like thinking to myself, how come you're never really all that broken up when a relationship ends, even with someone you care about? Like those songs about you know, like just dying inside because they they lost their their partner because they broke up or whatever, and wanting them back, and I never really felt that before. And I'm I'm trying to think. And then it started to dawn on me that I'm not vulnerable in a relationship. I was always like I said, I didn't want to hold hands, you know. I mean, as I got older I did, but I mean, even though I felt stuff, and even though I felt like I was connecting, I was always really emotionally distancing myself myself. And I don't know that I think it probably caused the end to some relationships where it whether they realize or not they they could feel it. But also it, you know, it it it served as a protection. I was afraid of getting hurt at that point. You know, I'm I'm 54, and when I realized this, COVID was what, how many years ago now? Um six years ago, seven. So I was what 40, 48 at the time, I guess. And um I wasn't so worried about looking bad like I was when I was like, no, no, no, no, bitch is gonna get the best of me. That was my stupid attitude when I was younger, you know. And I didn't care about that so much, but I had this fear of being hurt. And as I'm walking, I said, I realized I'm like, you know what? You have to be as vulnerable to being hurt, you have to be willing to get as deeply hurt as you want to fall in love. However, deeply you want to be in love is how deeply you have to put it out there to get hurt, and I wanted to fall deeply in love. I, you know, I always imagined I would find that, and I hadn't. So I started thinking about you know, one thing I wouldn't do. I wouldn't even tell women on that they look good.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_04

I was too vulnerable. Once in a while, or I'd make it really like you damn you look really hot. Like we're gonna have, you know, later on tonight, you know, and the reason I did that was to minimize the compliment.

SPEAKER_03

Sure.

SPEAKER_04

Right? It didn't feel so vulnerable. It was it was about sex now, not not about honesty and about her. And so I um I would do those things and I realized, okay, I have to, I can't do that. I have to I have to be true, and I have to come out and I have to come out, I gotta take off the armor, and if necessary, take off the clothes and emotionally be naked. And the first person I tried it with was the most toxic relationship of my life.

unknown

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00

I know. So it was like, here you go, you want to do this? Let's see. Let's test you. Yeah, let's see if you're not going to be able to do that. No, let's test you.

SPEAKER_04

And um what was interesting about that was, you know, I I mourned the end of that relationship before it came. So two months in it started to go downhill, but I didn't think so. I felt like I was responsible for that. This individual had had a lot of trauma in her past, a lot of trauma. Um, and you know, I felt like I'm the therapist. It's my job to communicate, to do better. I put everything on me, which was not right. I don't, it doesn't matter, I'm a therapist. Um, we're all people, and especially in our own relationships. And so um I I did. I started to open up and got, and it actually caused a lot tons of fights. Well, it didn't cause it, but it was involved in tons of fights. It was used on me in fights, and and I got angry about as it went on, but I kept trying to fix it. Didn't hurt as much as I, you know, I built it's often the unknown we build up to we don't even know what it is, but we fear it because it's unknown. And once it happens, like, wow. The first time I ever asked out a girl, it took me two weeks. I was, and then when I finally said I'm gonna do it, I was in seventh grade, and I followed her out of class, you know, we're in the same class and we're in the hall, and I was so scared that everybody was gonna know that I already had nobody like me as it was, but I, you know, and I went up to her, and I her name was Julie Schaefer, I remember, and I said, Julie, would you go out with me? And she goes, and she was so kind, she goes, I'm sorry, I like somebody else. I said, Oh, that's okay. And I'm standing there and nobody knew. I'm watching everybody scuffle through the hallway, and then I'm like, all I could think about was wow, that wasn't that bad.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And I felt like 2,000 pounds lighter.

unknown

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Like I could breathe. I was like, okay, she said no, but I feel better. Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, so you know, um, but I forget I went to that because you know, it was kind of like that's the same kind of fear I had. And then when it was happening, and I think for it to happen the first time in the most toxic relationship, I started to slowly mourn the loss of the relationship as it was going because I could feel it's opposite, I could feel myself not wanting it anymore, and so I didn't hurt. It wasn't where like like if we broke up, that would be devastating. It wasn't like that because it already was it had been toxic. It was toxic early on. Um, but then I went on to have a uh quite a healthy relationship. It just we just were very different people without much time for one another. Still friends with her to this day, but it got me ready for you. And I I've done it better, in my opinion, than I ever have, and it comes very natural with you. It's so easy. Um, and it's it's remarkable. And and the more that I become vulnerable and still very confident, right, in myself in our relationship, but able to be vulnerable enough, not enough, but vulnerable, completely vulnerable, vulnerable enough to fall in love at that level, which is deep. And I've been very vulnerable with you, and it feels great, and you were the right person to do it with, and I'm rewarded every day, and I'm glad for that. Um, you know, so but that was my journey towards it, but recognizing I needed to be, and I never got really burned, like I never had it where I totally fell head over heels in love, and then it it didn't work out, and I I was like feeling what those songs talk about, you know. Um but I mean I did once, I had one breakup like that, which was before COVID. I guess I guess I was starting to shift a little bit, and I was really kind of depressed about that for actually probably a couple months, not terribly, but you know, lack of energy, and I had never experienced that before. So I started to get a taste of it, and it did suck, and it didn't suck as bad as I thought, but yet I still I still I was a work in progress with my vulnerability, I think, at that point. But I wasn't vulnerable with her, and I remember that I said something to her. We met to talk after we broke up. I want to get back together. It was like a mutual breakup. She ended up not wanting to get back together, and um, I said something to her without she did something, I forget, something, she just something. I said, you know, I always thought that was adorable. She looked at me and she goes, Why didn't you always tell me? And I thought about that on my walks, and I told her I don't know. The truth was because it would have made me vulnerable. So I I didn't. And I'm like, Wow, you won't compliment somebody to protect yourself, you won't share something you're feeling like that's gotta when I realize that on my walks, I'm like, that has to stop. And then I realized, and I I do, I I hold to that. I have to be willing, I don't want to be hurt, but willing to be as hurt as deeply as I want to love. And that was my lesson in my journey.

SPEAKER_00

Beautiful, and I'm the one that gets the benefit from all this work that you've done. Yeah, well, that is just an incredible feeling because I've never had a relationship like this either.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Well, we both are from the work that was done, but you know, it was my journey for because you were vulnerable a lot. It was different, but for me, and that's what created the avoidance, right? That that protection, and I could walk away and be like, well, they didn't get the best of me, or I didn't get hurt, yeah, but I kept walking away.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And you know, I just it's not what I wanted.

SPEAKER_00

It's not what you want it. No, you have that insight.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, oh, I never wanted it, I just couldn't figure out how to change it. And so the the last takeaway I would say that I the most important thing was what I realized was okay, I I was mistreated a lot, right? These women were emotionally abusive, but I had to change in order for it to improve.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Because when I changed, I was no longer attracted to these women in a way to get into a relationship, and they weren't so attracted to me either. Because we can sense that about each other, right? Like you said, opposites attract. So if somebody is completely anxious and people pleasing, they're gonna likely attract somebody who is very selfish, maybe narcissistic, yeah, which is what happened to you. Yeah, and in my case, you know, I I was attracting those things as well with women where I was never, it was, and they all wanted to change me. I was never enough. I was always criticized, and then that made me want to pull away in this little count and mouse thing. And once I changed the people who were, you know, I wouldn't have found you if I didn't, we wouldn't have come together. No, and if we did, it wouldn't have lasted.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's such a good point before we wrap up here is that you if, and that's this is a choice, if you want to attract a secure relationship, if you want to feel secure in a relationship, you have to do the work on yourself. Because just like you said, if you feel secure within yourself and you are not gonna deal with breadcrumbs, you're not gonna deal with people treating you a certain way that you don't want to be treated, you are not going to give out that energy, you're not gonna attract those kind of people. So it is it is an inside feeling that you feel that there's no way I'm gonna put up with that anymore, and that is how it changes the kind of people that you allow into your life. Right. But if you don't do that work on your own and you don't realize your own worth or what it is that you want, in your case, you want it to fall in love, you want it to be vulnerable. But if you don't realize that and implement it into your life, it's never going to happen. You're constantly going to attract the same kind of person.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. You're always going to attract the same kind of person. And um I lost my train of thought.

SPEAKER_00

You said something um I want to expand on there, but well, you really treat people, you show people how you want to be treated.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. I you need a good relationship with you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and that was something that I thought I had when I was being distant. I I like myself, and you know, I did a lot of work. I mean, I went from being the most bullied kid in school to one of the most popular kids in school, but none of the girls would ever take a chance dating me. But I had a ton of friends and everyone knew who I was, and you know, and that was a testament to all the change I did with my behavior, because my behavior was causing the other problem. And I had a guidance counselor who was my basically my therapist that saved my life, but then it was you know, then it at one point I I really was unhappy when I was alone. And you know, we can't look to other people to fill that. We have to be able to fill that void, enjoy ourselves. Another person should not be required or necessary. I think of it like if we have a beautiful woman like Karina and she were to add some makeup to her, she doesn't need makeup, but if she were to her most beautiful features, it makes her look incredible, even more beautiful. If we look at ourselves, we should be that stay with me on this metaphor, that beautiful woman, and then our partner becomes our makeup, right? We're already beautiful, we're already good. You enhance my life. If you weren't in it, I will survive and go on. But I that's not what I want. But I can do that, and I believe you would do the same because we're healthy people now.

SPEAKER_00

100%. And what I tell my clients, and this was this was what worked for me too, is you have to love the person that you're alone with, which is yourself. When you can be alone with yourself and you actually love your own company, you don't need other people in your life to come in and fill it or fix it. Like you said, it's just it's just an enhancement, it's extra, it's something that feels good, but you don't need that to fill up your life, right? So we hope this helped you guys just get a little more of an understanding of what are attachment styles, what do they mean, what kind of attachment style do I have? And there are tons of free quizzes that you can find online, and um, and just to figure out where you are, because when you have that awareness, it just explains a lot why why you respond the way you do, why you attract the kind of people that you attract.

SPEAKER_04

And you can't change what you don't acknowledge. So if it's something you want to change, you need to understand it in order to fix it, yeah, or to adjust it, or whatever you feel is necessary for you to have a happy, healthy life.

SPEAKER_00

100%.

SPEAKER_04

So, and we want to keep talking.

SPEAKER_00

Keep talking. And if you like this episode, please give us a five-star review and a rating. It just really helps the podcast being shown to more people. And don't miss an episode. So if you hit the follow button in the upper right hand corner, just three little dots, click on that, hit follow, then you'll be notified every Monday morning at 6 a.m. Eastern a new episode drops. So thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you.