Crave To Connect | Building Better Relationships

How To Deal With Dysfunctional Family Members | Crave To Connect | Ep20

• Karina and Michael • Season 1 • Episode 20

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0:00 | 53:11

Crave To Connect is a candid, honest, and sometimes hilarious conversation about the messy realities of relationships.Hosted by Karina Paxton, a certified clinical EFT practitioner, and a trauma informed coach, and...

Michael Calderon, a licensed clinical social worker (LSCW) and a licensed clinical alcohol and drug counselor (LCADC) specializing in mental health, addiction, and relationship dynamics

The goal is simple: Real conversations about real life and real real relationships.

With their unique backgrounds in trauma recovery, therapy, and emotional healing, Karina and Michael bring two different perspectives to topics like toxic relationships, healing, personal growth, and understanding human behavior. 

Expect relaxed conversations, unexpected insights, and the occasional awkward moment, because that’s what real conversations look like.

Pull up a chair, get comfortable, and join the conversation.


To get in touch:

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https://www.instagram.com/liveyourlife.coach?igsh=dHJpcm1zZmQ3c3Ex&utm_source=qr

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https://linktr.ee/liveyourlife.coach

Book a Call:

https://calendly.com/liveyourlife-coach/30-minute-discovery-call-helena-guest

Michael Calderon:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/michael-calderon-hackettstown-nj/1044394


SPEAKER_01

Welcome to Crave to Connect with your host Karina, the recovering men hater, and Mike, the former emotionally unavailable therapist. Sit back, get comfortable, and relax. Our whole vibe with this podcast is to casually dive into all the messy, hilarious, and sometimes confusing parts of relationships. Whether it's with yourself, all the humans, no pressure, just good chats and maybe some awkward moments. Welcome to Crave to Connect. Today we are going to talk about how to deal with dysfunctional family members.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's something uh excuse me, something we both know a little bit about.

SPEAKER_01

We know a lot about. Yeah. Yes. And this was a topic that was suggested to us by somebody that we know, and we both just thought, this is this is brilliant. Because I can only imagine we are not the only ones out there who are dealing with whether it's a parent or sibling, maybe it's an in-law, right?

SPEAKER_04

That are aunt, uncle, cousin.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that are just high conflict, very challenging, dysfunctional, toxic, whatever you want to call them, right? And I know you have a lot of sort of experience with that personally, but also with your clients. And that is one of the first things I see too with my clients, because um when clients come to me, they usually have uh suitcase, if not several suitcases, of trauma and baggage and all of that. And I always say everything starts and stems from your childhood, right? From how you're brought up, your caregivers, your experiences, your pre-programmed thoughts. And if you out there are like me that grew up in a home that was just very unstable and chaotic, and there was never any routine or love, really, right? Um, it was just yelling and chaos, and you had no idea who was coming and going. Um, it is very easy to build up resentment and anger. And I certainly did that for years. It took me years of therapy to release that from my mother. My father disappeared out of my life when I was when I was very young. Um, but with my mother, I definitely had a lot of of anger toward her, and we to this day, we really only talk a couple of times a year on the phone. She does live 3,000 miles away, so that helps me greatly. Um, but I have really released any anger or resentment towards her. I just have I think I have almost like a compassion for who she is now, that she is this woman who looks much older than she is, trapped in this body. She has a lot of um a lot of disabilities, she's not she's not mobile. And this is her own trauma that really trapped her, you know, inside her world, inside her brain, inside her world. And uh I have compassion for that for sure. But it took me a very long time. So when I do go back and visit, which happened about two years ago with my daughter for the first time ever, um, I had to do a lot of preparation before I went to see her. Oh sure. Also doing. Um, and it took me a long time to get here. But is it's just something I am I'm just really passionate about. And I think if we can learn to regulate ourselves, right, before we have to be with these family members that we're still choosing to have in our lives, it is just important that you try to take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, excuse me, um nothing will trigger your emotions like family.

SPEAKER_00

100%.

SPEAKER_04

Um and you know, I have like you grew up in a very I had a a mom who really did her best to stabilize our family life, but um very chaotic with, you know, uh when my dad was younger, he was just you know, he he was not stable with his with and when I say I'm I don't mean psychotic, just um just not he just wasn't a happy person and it infected the whole family. Um and due to that, my sister and I, you know, I had a lot of resentment towards my dad. Never really had resentment towards my mom. Um, and with my sister and I were very, very different people, and we had a lot of trauma. My mom had cancer when we were both younger, um, and we both handled it very differently. My sister felt I should handle it the way she was, and that's just not how I operate. Caused a lot of anger and friction, and I nearly stopped talking to her at that time. Um, fast forward how many years now, 30 years later, and my mom passed away, and I thought we had put that behind us, we had become friends. We know still have a lot in common, but we seemed alright, and all that the behavior I saw from her brought up all that resentment that I thought was gone, but never really worked on it. Right, just thought it kind of I you know, sometimes you can just let it go when someone's behavior changes, relationship changes. So I thought it kind of dissipated and it did not. So it's triggered again. And you know, I had uh have a lot of resentment towards my brother-in-law with the way he treated me when he was married to my sister, very passive, aggressive. Um I I felt showed a lack of respect often, which you know kind of filtered down into that family with my nephews and stuff. So yeah, you know, and then I have an aunt who um just has been one of the more selfish people I know, and uh it was always frustrating. Um, and you know, she had addiction issues early in life, and and again, midlife, I think, some and I'm sure that impacted all of those things. But you know, the one thing that's so important is that we realize it's not personal.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, it's not personal because what all of us have in common, right, is that we have our own trauma and we continue living in the same way until we understand that this is no longer healthy, right? Until we break the cycle. So, no, it really isn't personal, but it's really hard not to feel that way in the moment.

SPEAKER_04

And when you say the cycle, I mean that's often what it is, it's intergenerational trauma that's been passed down. Yeah, and it's not personal. This is how families learn to cope. I mean, my dad's family is littered with emotional cutoffs. You know, somebody pisses you off enough, and then you stop talking to them, and then your family members are expected to do the same.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I had family members that I was taught from a young age to dislike, and we don't talk to those people, you know, and it's not healthy, um, but it's I guess what the family felt the need to do.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You know, I remember um my grandmother's brother was cut off from from my side of the family because um whether he did or he did not, I really don't know, but it was believed that he stole money from my grandmother. So everybody hated him for it. Um could have been my mom grandmother's perception, and maybe he perceived that that was his money. I don't really I don't know the whole story. And these things happen, right? And then we're we're taught to, well, why don't you talk to this individual? I'm I don't know. Just told that we don't talk to him.

SPEAKER_01

Right. That was decided by your parents. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, my dad, right. Well, really, my grandmother and then my dad.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right, right, yeah. So, so what do you do, right, if you have a family member or like we mentioned, an in-law, right? What if you're married, your partner has in-laws that you just have a very challenging time being around. And what I also like, what I always like to tell my clients, because that's something I learned, is it does not have to be black and white, right? So a lot of times, what I hear from my clients when they come to me is I, you know, my mother was just horrible to me, she's narcissistic, she's whatever, and I I I can't have her in my life, but at the same time, I feel like if I if I decide to go no contact with her, there's going to be I'm going to be punished by either the other parent or my siblings or whatever.

SPEAKER_04

So affecting the family.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, affect the entire family. So for several of my clients, they have a really hard time understanding that do I stay in this, do I stay present in this family's life? Do I still show up for holidays and for dinner, dinners, or do I say a hundred, I'm there's no way I'm gonna do that, right? And it and it's so I could try to explain to them it's not always black and white. There is a middle. There is a middle. So what I try to teach my clients, which help me greatly too, is that when you have a person in your life, and again, this is you know, trauma on top of trauma on top of past experiences, which makes it even more challenging, is you can't, if you treat this individual that you have a really hard time with as the person that you wish they were. Meaning, right? Let's, and I used to do that for years. So let's take my mother.

SPEAKER_04

I did too.

SPEAKER_01

Let's take my mother as an example. I used to think, my gosh, one day, one day it's gonna click, right? One day she is going to be the mother I always wish that she was, right? One day she's going to say to me, Oh my gosh, how was your day? How is that going? I remember last time you told me about this. I am here for you. If you need it, let me know. Can I help you with anything? Or just random questions. How is it going? How was work? How was your dating life? Right, any sort of connection. There, it never, ever, ever happened. So, what I learned, and I heard this from Oprah, and we talked about in this previous episode too, is forgiving is letting go of the hope that the past could have been any different. So, when I really learned to apply that, especially to my mother, it was like a weight lifted off my shoulder, right? So I was still able to get on the phone with her. I was still able to visit her that one time a year that I had to, and I used to stay in her apartment with her when I would be in Denmark 10 days in a row. And and thank goodness I had tabbing because I literally had to tap almost every single morning just to get me through living with her because I think I would have killed her if I if I wasn't able to regulate myself. So, what I learned was when I have to interact with my mother, I don't really share anything personal. I keep it just very superficial. We talk about the weather. She doesn't really watch movies or anything, so we really have nothing in common. So mostly we talk about the weather, and then I just let her talk. And she likes to talk about things like how expensive everything is, how exhausting life is for her, how draining and her body hurts, just all these things, right? So, what I have learned is I don't take it personally, like you said. I don't take it in, I let her talk. Then I like to get my daughter on the phone so she can talk about what she's doing, and she's very good at at being excited about my daughter. Oh, how is school? How is it? She she can do that with her, but she's never been able to do that with me. And then thankfully, I can always just, Mom, we got we gotta get off the phone now, right? And then I always have an excuse as to what we're doing. But it used to be that when I would when I would hang up, I would walk around with this cloud over my head, this resentment in my body going, I cannot believe. She never asked me about this, she's not interested in me. She she just could not care less. When I was going through my divorce, there was no support or help from her, there was no questions, there was none of that, right? So it's understanding that I I'm choosing to distance myself from her emotionally, right? So I'm choosing to treat her as I would a neighbor, maybe, that you see around the corner. Oh gosh, yeah, rainy. This whole week has been crazy rainy, right? So when I do it that way, like you said, I don't take things personally. I understand this is who she is.

SPEAKER_04

She's not capable.

SPEAKER_01

She's not capable.

SPEAKER_04

You know, I do this with my sister. Um she's not trying to support me in any way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

If I really need her, my sister's an attorney. If I need a representative representation, I'd call her right now. She would be there. She wouldn't charge me. She's a good person, she's very self-absorbed. And it's really interesting when I say self-absorbed, she's not a self, she is, but she doesn't mean to be a selfish person. And she's not selfish just um so um overtly, like like your mother. She's always worried what people think, she's always trying to cover up that she doesn't think she's a good person, at least in my opinion. And all of that causes her to be self-absorbed, and she has whatever her sphere is, and work is very important to her, and then she has her kids and her boyfriend. But I mean, I don't know what else is in that sphere exactly, but I'm not.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And so I have, you know, um, with all the things going on, and you know, with my mom's death, we were there for each other some, but it was it was we were going through motions. Yeah, it wasn't really there. She's never really been there. If I ever needed to talk, she wouldn't really be available, and even if she listened, she she wouldn't really be available. I never felt that from her, so it was always a disconnect.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And um she's not capable, at least not with me.

SPEAKER_01

And that is a really good point that you mentioned not being capable because they're not, they're not capable, they don't have insight in and understanding and looking inward and say, gosh, I am so sad I don't have a connection with my daughter, with my brother, whatever it is, that we are not connected. What can I do on my part? Because it takes two people, right? What can I do from my part to to try to connect us again? That takes insight and that takes inner work. And and people like my mother and many other people out there, they don't have that awareness.

SPEAKER_04

And my sister has never made that effort. I'm always the one to call. Yeah, I always make the effort. And you know, I'm a therapist. If she when she she, you know, her kids have both experienced some, I mean, almost everybody does, but some things where she might have been able to use my advice. She would never call me.

SPEAKER_00

She would never call me.

SPEAKER_04

No, she won't call.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so, you know, when we were talking about what you do with your mom, we call that highly differentiated in my field. So the more highly differentiated you are, the more you can put your emotions aside and just logically focus on the relationship, right? Because now we don't take any, we're not hurt because it's not personal. We take the emotions out and we can have a relationship with anybody then.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

That's a great concept and this idea of fully highly differentiated. I am not. I mean, I think I'm highly differentiated on some level, but I'm a person.

SPEAKER_00

Sure.

SPEAKER_04

And sometimes I still, whether or not it's about me and it's not, if I'm being disrespected and I don't like it, eventually I probably will cut. You know, if if I'm not getting anything out of the relationship, I don't care who it is, I'm gonna cut that relationship. If I'm not only not getting something, but I am being damaged by it. If I'm not getting anything out of it and I'm not damaged by it, especially with some kind of family member, fine. My aunt I discussed, I'm not damaged by it. I get nothing out of it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I can have a relationship. I don't keep close contact. I don't want to be in close contact, you know, but um I um, you know, my it's it's my aunt Vicky. I, you know, I I love her from a distance. I I just you know, but I don't take it personally, so I don't, I'm I'm highly differentiated there. But then other times I don't, you know, if I'm being disrespected and I'm being hurt, or even it's not just whatever it is, if I'm not getting anything positive and I'm only getting negative at that point, if I can't reverse that or off, you know, kind of balance that, no matter who it is, I have to just I have to think about cutting that relationship off my and that is that is absolutely an option and a choice too, right?

SPEAKER_01

To go no contact is what we like to call it in in my world.

SPEAKER_04

Right. And I have we call it emotional cutoff.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I, you know, chose to do that with my father, I have no contact with him at all, and I have no interest in having contact with him. And and I know that there are a lot of people out there who have chosen to do the same with their parents, right? But again, it's a choice if you for some reason, and I agree with you, if anyone in your life is disrespecting you, causing you emotional harm, right, or not there for you, mistreating you in any way, right? Right, mistreating you in any way, you have every right, no matter who it is, to be like, I am not going to allow this this behavior to continue, right? It is not worth it.

SPEAKER_04

And oftentimes we hear about like, especially with siblings, even adult siblings with parents or whatever, all they do is criticize me, right? Right? And I'm tired of it, I'm never enough.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_04

You know, and it sucks. I grew up with that. My dad was very critical growing up. I was never, I never felt like enough.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and so, you know, it's like, what do you do with that? And sometimes they just don't stop. You're just no matter what you do, and whether they feel that way inside or not is irrelevant because your your reality, your perspective is they don't. Because sometimes, you know, my dad would tell me, Oh, you know, I think he's especially as an adult at least, you know, that he doesn't feel that way. Well, when all I hear is criticism, you know, like as a child, what am I supposed to think?

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And he thought he was trying to make me better. And I think there was some element of that, but I my dad was an angry guy. I think there was a lot of anger that came out and sure came out towards me and my sister at times. But you know, we hear that a lot. All they do is criticize.

SPEAKER_01

Right. I can never do anything right.

SPEAKER_04

And if you can't do anything right and you feel that way, then that is gonna damage you, especially when you care what this person thinks. It will damage you and it will damage you badly.

SPEAKER_00

100%.

SPEAKER_04

And if you can't find a way to either come to some internal resolution where it's not damaging you, or help this person to see what they're doing, so maybe they're motivated if they love you or care to change, then sometimes you have to consider, like you said, the uh no contact.

SPEAKER_01

100%, because what that does to you self-worth, right? So as children, we look up to our parents, and studies have shown that even parents that abuse their children physically, right? Neglectful, abandons them, whatever. Our brain is is so wired and connected to our primary caregivers that, you know, these kids, and I remember I had a client like that who told me about her sister and her daughter, it was terrible. Her sister was just neglectful, was was just not, she could not show up for her child. Her child, she was sent to foster care something like five or six times. She was only, she was only 10 years old. Every time the mother, her biological mother, would go to court and say, Judge, I promise I'm clean, I'm whatever. And the daughter was asked, Do you want to stay with this family in foster care? Do you want to go back to your mom? She would always mom. Right? Because she was, no matter how she was, I mean, her mother would beat her, it was horrific. But no matter, almost no matter how children, especially when they're young or treated, their brain craves that connection and they will do almost anything.

SPEAKER_04

As an adult, too, sometimes, right? If they're abused throughout their child, even women who were sexually abused by their fathers, oftentimes we see these even in adulthood.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_04

We do see them walk away, and it's just this trauma bond that's created, and it's just a very sad thing. Um, you know, but there's also ways of coping with these things to make it easier, right? Where you can what can we do now to okay? So I don't want to cut off my family, I don't want to go no contacts. So you're talking about all this, so what can we do? I mean, one thing we can do is not take it personally, that's hard.

SPEAKER_01

But see, it's easy to say, I always say to my clients, it's so easy to say to yourself, I'm not gonna take it personally, but your nervous system is not gonna stand that because it's two different things, right? So something I like to do with my clients is I like to create a bingo card. I tell them to create a bingo card. So let's say you are going to, you know, you're going to, it's it's a holidays or whatever, you know you're going to your family's house, right? Maybe it's your mother that that's a toxic person. So what I like to say to my clients is you want to prepare yourself before you go. You know 110% what this mother is going to say, what she's going to do, how she's going to criticize you, she's going to look at you, she's going to make contacts about your uh con comments about your hair, your clothes, that you gain weight, the food you brought, whatever it is, right? You know that lost too much weight. Right. She knows you can she's going to say something that is going to like hurt, right? Almost like she's stabbing a knife into your chest. So, so what I like to say to my clients is make a bingo card. So you write down everything that you predict. We're going to use mother as an example that your mother is going to say to you. So, and you're just going to memorize it. And also, I said, if you are with, let's say you have a healthy partner, whatever, and you can create a code word. So, when things become too much, you can say what a code word is. That person is going to know, oh my gosh, hey, do you want to go for a walk? Do you want to go outside? So you remove yourself from the situation. You can go to the bathroom, you can do some deep breathing, you can do some tapping, right? So we prepare ourselves. So back to the bingo card. So what it's almost like it's not funny at all, but it's almost like you're making a game out of it. So you are staying in control. So when you show up and the and this mother starts to say X, Y, and Z, you're like, yep, bingo, bingo, bingo. I knew she was going to say that. And it's especially fun if you do it with a partner because the partner is gonna know, right? What you wrote down for bingo.

SPEAKER_04

So you can make up two cards and compete.

SPEAKER_01

So you might like do a little wink or have like a little sign for whatever I got it, right? So you are in control, so you're not allowing yourself any nervous system to be dysregulated by this person, to be upset because you know what to expect.

SPEAKER_04

Could even give you so you could have like a little system, right? If I get five right, then I'm gonna uh go get my yes, you're gonna reward myself. I'm gonna reward myself with something I want, right? If I cover my card, I'm gonna go out to dinner and have a massage or something.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. That's that's exactly what I say to them, too. I'm like, you want to make sure that you win a good price. Like, what is it that you want to win at the end of it? But so you do that beforehand. And I always like to tell my clients, right? You do tapping, you do some deep breathing, you regulate yourself. You use your five senses. So when you walk into that house, you are not dysregulated. So you're preparing yourself. So that's before you go to this house. So what do you do doing, right? So even though you have the bango card, you make a little game out of it, you are go most likely going to be dysregulated because you are human and this person has done that your entire life. So again, you can remove yourself, you can go to the bathroom, you do not have to sit and be a target at dinner.

SPEAKER_04

No, and if it's a big enough group, you could kind of distance yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Talk to somebody else, right? You don't have to be right next to this person to treat you like that. And you can also, what I did with my client is I this was like a Thanksgiving dinner. I said, set yourself a time limit. Because what this person would do is she would feel like, oh, things are going well. It's fine. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, right? This this um stepmother would all of a sudden start and she would say, Gosh, why didn't I leave when it was still nice, right?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So I said to her, I said, set yourself a time limit, right? So you can't.

SPEAKER_04

And you could drop the mic, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_01

You stay an hour, you say two hours, but don't wait until this person starts, right? Right with their craziness. So that helped tremendously because again, then you are in charge. You feel like you are in charge, you're not waiting for this person to again disrespect you or call your name or criticize you or whatever. You're in charge. You're choosing to come, you're choosing to participate, and you're also choosing when you can leave.

SPEAKER_04

Yep. And and to go back really quick about the not taking it personal. Now, I think we've talked about this in other podcasts, but to be clear, that person's behavior is not about you, it's about them and their experiences and how they react to things. So when they have these reactions, it's not because it's you, even if you seem to trigger those reactions in an intense way, it's about them. Right? So, like for instance, um, you know, there might be time where, you know, if somebody acted angry like my dad is a cat as when I was a kid, I might have a very strong reaction to them, but it was because of what I experienced with my dad. And in my brain, I go back to that, you know, 10-year-old brain, and um, I know there's gonna be a severe consequence, even though this person isn't my dad. Yeah, I don't know this person's gonna give it, but that's the trauma, that's how our brain just reacts now, right? Because it's coded for it for the brain, and that's why this isn't personal. Also, you know, when you go to a like a family gathering, there could be a lot of high emotions, for example, especially in families that drink often. Yes, the more they drink, right? So monitor the drinking is it's is you know, is an either if they're drinking a little heavier or as the nights get a little longer, you might want to start to make your way out or do something else, right? I know I think my uncle just, you know, when we were my that's my dad's brother when we were kids, um he, you know, he'd get overwhelmed sometimes, I think, with everything, or I don't know. So sometimes he'd I remember one time he said to me, Hey, you want to go to the arcade? I go, Yeah, like, are you kidding? Chance to spend with my uncle, the guy who's the coolest guy in the world. I was a young kid, I loved video games. You know, I felt like really big because I got to leave, and like the one time was just the two of us, yeah. And we went to the arcade. I think he just needed a break. It wasn't even that there was anything bad going on. We were a close family, but it could be conflictual at times, and I think sometimes it was overwhelming. He needed a break. Yeah, we go to the arcade for a couple hours, we'd come back.

SPEAKER_00

That's great.

SPEAKER_04

So, you know, it's like monitor you know your family better than anybody, monitor the emotion because that's the thing, really, especially in when we're talking about more than one person and families watching the level of the emotion and what's going on, right? Because anything can set off that bomb. Not a whole family is at odds and they're arguing and crying. Yeah, and especially families that tend to misuse alcohol. This is something very consistent.

SPEAKER_01

That's a really good point. And what I also say to my clients is if they do drink, I'm like, do not drink alcohol. Because what's going to happen is you are going to want to drink more and more and more to try to cope with what's happening. And you'll get more emotional. And then you are going to lose, right? Any common sense when you are drunk, when you're a little buzzed, and you are just going to be triggered even quicker.

SPEAKER_04

Or yeah, we're easily triggered.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So you don't you don't want to do that?

SPEAKER_04

So that's a couple of things, right? You can make a game, you don't want to take it personally. Um you might want to, especially in families that are highly conflictional when there's alcohol consumption, you want to either limit or not drink alcohol. You can avoid, you know, I have an my aunt, my invoicy, got to a point where we would um I would uh avoid her. Um you know, when I first became a therapist and a and a drug counselor, she used to be a drug counselor, she was like in this competition. And you know, back in the day, all you needed to be a drug counselor is to be in recovery. Now there's certifications, and she's like, I could do it. I'm like, you can't really, it's it's not the way it used to be. I'm trying to explain, I'm like, Anvoicate, it's not like she's getting angry and arguing, and all she wanted to do was start a fight with me because I think she was like jealous of the fact that I did this. You know, I went through a master's degree in a special program, and I, you know, took extended credit um electives for it. And I wasn't put in her face. I it was my graduation party. Me and her daughter, her daughter became a nurse at the same time, got her master's. And so, you know, what I've learned to do is avoid her, you know, and she's not real and mobile, so it's very easy now. But there's a lot of family members when I'm at my dad's side, and I can kind of I say hello, I kiss her hello, talk to her for a few minutes, and then I go somewhere away from her.

SPEAKER_01

And it what came to me as you were talking about that was do not add fuel to the fire, right? So a person that you know is going to get, you know, this person is going to flip, they're going to get heated, they're going to get loud, whatever it is. They are poking you, right? Like a bear, they're trying to poke you and get a reaction out of you. That's what she was doing to me. Get a reaction out of you. So again, if you can show up as regulated as possible and you keep reminding yourself, I am not going to take the bait, I'm not going to throw, you know, fuel to the fire. Because the minute you start reacting to this high conflict person, that's what they want. So that ignites them even more, right? So now you have this back and forth.

SPEAKER_04

And then you look like the bad guy when you start covering it.

SPEAKER_01

Then you look like the crazy person.

SPEAKER_04

Because they're usually doing it in a covert way where people aren't seeing that, and then you become the villain, right? And you were in the holiday or the gathering.

SPEAKER_01

Then you look like the crazy person. Why are you always yelling? Why do you have to yell at her? You know, your poor little aunt, your poor mother, whatever it is, because they have different things.

SPEAKER_04

And also because it also impacts other people. So, like I'm close, you know. Well, I used to be really quite close, especially with my aunt's daughter, Tori, you know, and um, I don't want to hurt or upset them. And I I don't even want to, you know, I don't take it personally what my aunt does. There's for me, it's easy with that. That's about her, not me. And it's very, it's always been obvious to me. But I also don't want to hurt anybody. I don't want to make a problem. So, you know, then there's also ways that you can engage with them, right? For instance, excuse me. For instance, you could use I statements instead of you statements, you know. Well, you know, I I remember it differently, or, you know, I whatever. Own your feelings rather than putting it on the other individual. Um, and you could even say, I'm sorry you feel that way, right? Which doesn't take any accountability except that you're sorry they feel that way. You're not agreeing, you're not telling it. They may think you're saying they're right, but you're not. You're just saying, I'm sorry that you feel that way if they say something negative about you.

SPEAKER_01

And most likely it's also a learned behavior, right? And a learned dynamic. Often, before we get to this point, we might feel like we have to win this argument, right? We have to keep going at them and repeating ourselves over and over and over again because why does this person not understand? That is not what I mean, right?

SPEAKER_04

They don't want to understand.

SPEAKER_01

No, and it's it's pointless and it is a waste of your energy, right? And again, what they want is a reaction out of you so they can keep this crazy snowballing, you know, tornado going. And if you stop and you don't add anything to that, they can't really play with themselves, right? Like, who are they gonna talk about? What are they gonna say? They're not getting anything back at the sandbox. I always say they're gonna get bored eventually because there's no one to throw sand at. They're gonna get up and walk away.

SPEAKER_04

And what's interesting is a lot of times they're not consciously even aware of what they're doing. I don't think my Aunt Vicky, well, to be fair, right? I don't that party where she came at me about this, I don't think she consciously was aware of what she was doing.

SPEAKER_00

No, I understand.

SPEAKER_04

She was trying to engage me, and why? Because it was bothering her and eating her. Yeah, and it wasn't about me, it was about her. Because she's just, you know, she just wasn't doing, I don't think she was working. And, you know, it was something that was bothering her that I went out and I and that I did all this work to do this. And so she was trying to help herself to make herself feel better and probably looking for a fight because if she can explode, all then all this feel-good, she's not thinking this, but all the feel-good serotonin and all the feel-good hormones now go into your brain to calm you, and now you can have a nice rest of your day or calm rest of your day. And she that this is not something that often people think of. Even my dad, when he would explode, he would explode a lot more kids, and I think some of it was not knowing that he needed a release and so he didn't know how else to get it, so he would just look for something to explode over, or other times he's just angry all the time. But sometimes I think he looked to get himself going to explode, and it wasn't on purpose. This is this is all subconscious.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

A lot of people with ADHD do that really because if they get angry, if they can start a fight, if they can cause a lot of chaos and an explosion, then they can get what would give what the drugs, you know, the ADHD meds might give them, the calmness, right? But they don't know it. Or if they, you know, a lot of times people with ADHD drink or smoke weed. So they're getting, I'm not gonna do drugs, but then they find themselves always looking for, or a lot of times looking for conflict so they can explode and they don't even know it.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_04

I think my dad used to do that at times, right?

SPEAKER_01

Cell subconscious, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And then once you explode, now the brain is balancing itself with those hormones, and then I can calm, and oh, now we can talk it through and make up, but I have to have the explosion first.

SPEAKER_01

And then what's so interesting is once that person has exploded and now they're calm, they expect everyone else around them to forget what happened. They expect that why what you're upset? What are you upset about? I'm not angry anymore, right? It's like because they are done, they have exploded, they have done it.

SPEAKER_04

They just had to get it out, right?

SPEAKER_01

They're done assault insulting you, whatever it is. They've ruined the whole night, but they're like, What? Now they're back to laughing, they're back to doing whatever, right? And then you are sitting with this rage, like you could not believe that this happened again.

SPEAKER_04

And so is the rest of the room. If they witnessed it, it impacts everyone in a negative way. Yeah, and the person doing it, and by the way, I I also was that person at times when I was younger. I would lose my keys and I would blow up, and then and everybody would be upset. And I'm like, I'm not angry at you, I'm just pissed because they're gone. My mom would be like, You're you're impacting everybody, yeah. And I'm like, why? It's my keys because you're so angry. I'm like, yes, but I'm not angry, and I couldn't understand it. Right. And I was and I wasn't Medicaid as a kid, I didn't know I had it as a kid, and I would blow up. I didn't look for blow-ups, but I would get so frustrated when I lost something, which happened all the time, that I would blow up. And and then I would be like, I'd be calm, and now I left all this destruction around me, and nobody else was good, yeah, but me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but a lot, most high con every high conflict person do not understand that that's the effect that they have on everyone else around them, and they also just do not care. Because if they cared, just like you st like you stop, right? And you realize, what am I doing? This is impacting everyone else. People that are high conflict and toxic do not care about that, and that is what's so important to remember too. Again, do not take it personally, it has nothing to do with it.

SPEAKER_04

Like, don't push my buttons, they'll tell you, right? Don't push my buttons. Yes, it's because of you, it's because you made me do that, right? Right? They blame everything and take no accountability, yeah, which could be infuriating in and of itself. That could cause a whole stir in a family, right? So they're all like, I don't know what the problem is, and you're like, Because you're not taking accountability. What do you mean? Yeah, I didn't do anything, right? And then you're the one that looks nuts, and you get furious. Are you kidding me right now? Yeah, look at you, you're all deregulated because of what I'm not doing anything. Yeah, and you're like, I've been that guy where somebody's gotten me deregulated, especially when I was younger. Yeah, and then I looked like the one who caused the trouble.

SPEAKER_01

So we call that reactive abuse, right? Is that you are reacting because you are being abused by this person, right? Verbally insulted. So you have a disproportionate reaction to this person because you like you just snap. I want you like, I can't freaking take this anymore.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And then, yeah, you look like the crazy one. You are the one people look at and go, Oh, yeah, I thought there was something a little off, right? We see that all the time in in relationship with narcissists, is that it's usually the other partner that is looked at as the crazy one.

SPEAKER_04

Or the the villain, and then it's the other one's the victim. Yes, and then they play into the victim role. I I don't know why he's acting like that.

SPEAKER_01

100%, yeah. Because the rest of us are not able to, if we do get mad and we do explode, we're not able to cut it off like that, right? We will feel, oh my god, I'm so sorry I yelled, I'm so sorry I erased my voice, I'm so sorry I blamed you for that. I'm so we will take accountability and we will apologize because we understand how it affects people around us, right? But a high conflict toxic person is not going to do that. They just expect.

SPEAKER_04

They might they might say, you know, I'm sorry you're such an asshole.

SPEAKER_01

But they're not gonna take accountability for what they just did.

SPEAKER_04

They're not you're gonna always put it back on you. Right. But I've had somebody say, I'm sorry you're an asshole. There you go.

SPEAKER_01

But that's not apologizing for their own.

SPEAKER_04

No, it's not, but that's their idea.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right? They think they're doing it.

SPEAKER_04

Actually, they're probably trying to trigger you some more to make you know, but sure, you know, but and the person, and you know, what that does too with this conflict is a person like that often will turn things and put it back on you constantly. Constantly, right? No matter what. Well, I reacted that way because of this. Well, you're not controlling yourself. Wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01

But like you were so sensitive, I can never tell you anything. You always get sad.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, you think I'm criticizing you about it? I can't say anything that you don't think is criticism, yeah, because it's all right. I mean, yeah, so then they they kind of gaslight you.

SPEAKER_00

That's gaslighting.

SPEAKER_04

And they and they turn it all back on you, and they're just keep putting a mirror up for you to look at, but they're giving you a falsified image. It's not a real image, it's not a real image, right? And they're getting you to believe you're the problem and you're it's like you're looking in one of those fun house mirrors, it's all distorted. Yeah, you're like, wow, I'm really fat, but you're not because it's the mirror distorting it. But that's what the high conflict person will do as well.

SPEAKER_01

100%. It's always back on you, and that's the cycle over and over and over and over again. So let's talk about this. Is also a tip that I give my clients. So we talked about what to do before. You have to show up to a family gathering, right? What do you do during and after is so important, right? So you were done, you're done with this, with this dinner, with this holiday, whatever it is that you had to do, and you leave, and chances are that you are feeling like you're spinning, you're feeling like you're feeling a little rageful, you're feeling whatever. What do you do when you come home? You don't sit with that and let that fester and let that stay in your body. It is so unhealthy, and that's how everything builds up. So, what I tell my clients to do is when you get home, if you can, if it's still daylight out, it feels safe to do, go for a walk. Go take a really cold shower.

SPEAKER_04

Or we'll go for a run if you run.

SPEAKER_01

If you run, go yeah, but get outside.

SPEAKER_04

Do something to burn off some energy if you can.

SPEAKER_01

Take a really cold shower, right? You can, and you want to get all this energy out of your body, right? So I tell people shake it out. Start shaking everything out in your hands, in your feet. You can even even dance. It might be the last thing you want to do, but blast a song and just move your body so you get that energy.

SPEAKER_04

Or singing the car at the top of your lungs. I used to do that after seeing my dad sometimes, and I got really frustrated. I would like blast metal and I would just be all angry music and I'd be going.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_04

Which is me in the car, and I'd blare it and I would be singing at the top of my lungs.

SPEAKER_01

That is a way to release it too. Deep breathing, so you've really inhale through your nose like a lion's breath sound through your mouth. You just keep repeating that over and over and over and over again. So once you do that, what that does is it gets you back online, it gets you back into your body and out of your head, right? So you are not letting what happened to you control the rest of your night. That you know, maybe sometimes for for days you can walk around ruminating. I cannot believe this person said that to me. I cannot believe I fell for that again. I can't believe I got mad, I can't. I used to do all that. This is what we don't want that. It's a waste of time, it's exhausting, it is so unhealthy for our nervous system, right? So I have found that when we deal with it, the minute we get home and we we process it, we release it, it is gone. And I I really want to make sure that people understand this is something that takes time to practice. This is not something that you're gonna get right overnight. Because again, this is what you know pathways are used to doing, right? You're used to showing up to this person, you're used to this toxic dynamic, the back and forth, you're used to feeling the way that you do, you're used to leaving, ruminating over and over and over for days. We want to stop that again if you choose to still be in contact with what whoever it is, whatever family member is toxic and dysfunctional in your life, right? So having tools to deal with that. And before we wrap up here, it's also really important to, and you mentioned that too, is you have just because it is family, and I know a lot of people, especially an older generation, will say, Oh my gosh, this is your mother, this is your father, this is your grandmother, this is blood. You know, you you can't disown us, you can't leave, you can't do whatever. A lot of guilt gets put on us. Oh, yeah. It is so important to read.

SPEAKER_04

My dad's side is Jewish, man. They're also.

SPEAKER_01

What about your children? I'm I'm not gonna see my grandchildren. You you're not gonna, you're gonna not gonna allow your, you know, your child to know your grandmother or your uncle or whatever it is, right? That guilt that gets put on you, right? It is not healthy for anybody, especially your children. To be around a person that is toxic and makes you feel that way. Because if they treat you that way, they are also going to do that to your children. And your children are going to experience not only how you change and how you feel around that person, right? So you, so no, blood is not thicker than water. You are not obligated to stay in contact with anyone that you don't want to. What we're talking about here today is just if for some reason you feel like I cannot, I can't go no contact with my mother. Or I don't want to go to my mother. I don't want to. My, you know, my husband's father drives me insane, but I feel like I have to go for these dinners or whatever it is. These are just tools to help you stay as regulated as possible when you have to endure this.

SPEAKER_04

You know what there one I forgot. You know, in preparing for this, one of the things I always with anything, if you know, because people get riddled with anxiety, I I'm right, and they're just almost paralyzed sometimes because they have to go to these functions. You know, maybe it's like not just a family function, but it's in a hall because it's some big thing. And so what I always tell them is, okay, so tell me what's the worst case scenario? Let's look at it. The worst thing that could absolutely happen. And then after they tell me, I'm like, could you handle that? Yeah, how would you do that? Okay, so what we know now is that no matter what comes your way, you're gonna be able to handle it. That's not likely to happen, that's the absolute worst. So if it's something else, it's gonna be a lot easier to handle. That's like kind of like gravy, and then what you can do at the end of the night is you can kind of look back and see, all right, zero to ten, I knew what the worst was. What happened tonight? Where did that fall? That's good, and then kind of you could also kind of like think about like grading yourself. How did I do? Right? Did I use some of the techniques? How am I feeling zero to ten? How angry or anxious am I feeling? So you can kind of compare notes from the beginning to the end. Yeah. Right? And and kind of de we call that a debrief. I do that with sessions on my way home sometimes. I have a short commute, but if there was a session that was really rough without even I don't even do it intentionally anymore. I will debrief and play out that session. And where what did I do? Excuse me, what happened? Was there anything I could have done differently in trying to kind of take notes for the next time? And we can do the same thing. We debrief, you know, if you're able to leave and you're not totally deregulated. All right, so how did it go? Kind of debrief, grade yourself. Was it as bad as you were concerned about? What was different?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

How did you handle that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's good. That's great. And that's also, I think, how we how we keep ourselves in check, right? How we go back and say, Did I handle this differently than the last time I had to show up and and see this person, right? When we sort of when we sort of go back and we and we do that with ourselves.

SPEAKER_04

And then if you do that and you see progress, congratulate yourself. It's a win. You should celebrate. You should tell yourself, I did a hell of a job tonight.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

I you know, I I only got upset one time. Like that's a big that's a big gain compared to the last time I saw this person.

SPEAKER_00

100%.

SPEAKER_04

Or these people. Sometimes it's a whole family.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_04

It could be part of your family that's there, like one particular smaller family within the family, or it could be a person or a couple of people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. So ideally, what we want to get to is to be neutral, right? And I have when it comes to our feelings about this family member, and I have this one particular client, she's had the hardest time with her father. She could never get to that neutral point up until recently. And all of a sudden, she said to me in a session, she goes, He did not bother me. I was not upset. I wasn't upset the last time I saw him. And this has been months, this has been a couple of months now. So, and I kept saying to her, I said, I promise you, if you keep doing the work, if you keep doing, if you keep reflecting on yourself, right? If you do the preparation before, doing after, if you understand that it's not about you, it's about this, your father's trauma, you are going to get to this point. She did not believe it because this has been going on right since she was born. And she's been able to maintain it. So again, it takes work and it takes self-reflection and it takes awareness and it takes help. It is very hard to do this on your own.

SPEAKER_04

I was gonna say you can you can recruit family members, not to get them against this person, but to sort of help, right? If you and I were going and there was a high conflict person, I might say to you, hey, listen, if you you know me, if you see me, like if I start to like look like I'm getting angry, you know, you could like say, hey, you know, let's go a little code word outside to get error, code word, or hey, you know, uh, why don't you know, let's say my mom, I'm not at well, we sold my mother's house, but let's say we're my mom's house or some kind of conflict. My sister, you could say, hey, why don't you show me the room you grew up in, right? Something like that. Yeah. And just to kind of pull them back because sometimes we need that basic reset for a second, and then we okay, I got this. I'm good, thank you. Right. And so it there's nothing wrong, you're not burdening people that care about you. No, no, if you're putting somebody in a point place where they feel they have to choose between the two of you, it's different. But otherwise, you know, let's say you're going to your grandparents' house and your aunt has always been really great, you know, and you could say, Hey, you know, Aunt Cindy, if this happened, you know, I'm having a little bit of trouble. So if you see something, if you could kind of break it up and intervene, crack one of your jokes, something, right?

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Um, you know, do something playful, like you know, one of the things we used to, my dad's very neat, so sometimes like to break things up, my aunt would just mess the shit up on purpose. Really? Yeah, she would like take a picture and make it crocade and it would drive them nuts. Who did this to my wall? You know, would drive me insane, you know, and it would break things up. Yeah, that's funny.

SPEAKER_01

And you can only do that with someone that you fully trust, right? Because most families have what we call flying monkeys. So if you start to share that with someone who also will go to this toxic family member and say, you know what Mike just said to me, doesn't right, then you escalate. So make sure that the person you pick is someone that you trust 100%, right? So we hope that this helped you. Yeah, we hope this felt good to talk about too, I think for me, like to sort of look back and be like, I have come very far, especially when it comes to my mother, right?

SPEAKER_04

I have come so far and I am just grateful because to be able to be truly in this neutral place and precision just feels so much easier and so much lighter, and healthier, and so much healthier, less stressful, it's yeah, it's a it's it's a lot of power, it feels powerful.

SPEAKER_01

It does feel powerful because we cannot control the people, right? And the more we try and the more we hope, and the more we bend ourselves and whatever, the crazier it gets for us, right? And and we can't. People are who they are, right? Until and if they get to a point where they're interested in changing, and a lot of times they're not, and they're willing to, you know, it's if it was so easy to get out of our own way, I wouldn't be a therapist, I'd be some some doing something else.

SPEAKER_04

And it's the same for a therapist. We don't have when it's personal, we have all the answers. So not only do they have to want to change, they have to actually go about it, seek out help, or do what they need to do to change. And wanting and doing are two different things, so it's very hard to change.

SPEAKER_01

It's very, very hard. It's very, very hard. But tools are important and outside help is important because it is really hard to see it objectively because it happens inside of you. And again, your pre-programmed brain and your thoughts and everything that you have experienced your entire life, which is really hard. So thank you for listening. And if you like this episode, we really ask if you could give us a five-star rating. So, how you do that is if you go to the bottom of the episode, you will see five stars. You click on the five stars, all five stars lights up. And if you want, we would love for you to write a little review, a little comment underneath. It literally just says review. And what that does is it just helps our podcast being shown to more people. And don't forget to subscribe, you hit the three little dots in the upper right hand corner. When you do that, you are going to be notified that a new podcast drops every Monday at 6 a.m. Eastern.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. Just in time for your commute.

SPEAKER_01

Just in time for your commute and to start your week. Thank you, everybody.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, and keep talking.

SPEAKER_01

Bye.

SPEAKER_04

Bye bye.