Meet Me in Music

Mattie Schell — Creativity, Growth & Life as a St. Louis Musician

• Neil Salsich • Episode 2

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On this episode of Meet Me in Music, host Neil Salsich sits down with St. Louis artist Mattie Schell for an honest and wide-ranging conversation about creativity, growth, and what it really means to live life as a working musician.

Mattie shares her journey from small-town roots and family jam sessions to performing on stages alongside some of the most respected musicians in the industry. She opens up about finding her identity as an artist, building confidence over time, and learning how to stay grounded in a career that often demands constant productivity and comparison.

The conversation dives into the realities of the modern music industry—from touring and recording to navigating streaming, expectations, and the pressure to “make it.” Mattie also reflects on her evolution as both a singer and songwriter, including her recent recording sessions in California and the story behind her song “No Stone.”

They also explore the unique energy of the St. Louis music scene, the importance of storytelling through music, and how place and upbringing continue to shape her sound.

More than just a conversation about music, this episode is about finding your rhythm, trusting your path, and redefining success as an artist.

They discuss:
 - A day in the life of a working musician
 - Letting go of productivity guilt
 - Performing with confidence and staying present on stage
 - Early influences: family, bluegrass, and musical theater
 - Finding her path from college back to music
 - Growth as an artist over time
 - Recording in California with legendary musicians
 - The story behind “No Stone”
 - The realities of streaming and the modern music industry
 - What it means to be a St. Louis artist

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Speaker

All

Welcome & Introducing Mattie Schell

Speaker

right, welcome back to Meet Meet and Music. We're so glad to have you. I am your host, Neil Salzik. Today, folks, this is a special one. We have with us in studio a songwriter, a soul shouter, a country crooner, and a rock and roll maniac all in one. I'm talking about St. Louis's one true rocker. Maddie Sha. Maddie, thank you so much for joining me. This is the second episode of my brand new podcast. Episode number two. Yeah.

A Day in the Life of a Musician

Speaker 5

Is this my camera?

Speaker

I know. It's it's so exciting. It's so exciting to do this podcast. And I'm I'm leaning on people, um, people that I know for the first couple episodes, but also people that that I respect and admire. And and I and seriously, and I and people who I want to figure out what makes them tick. So that's what we're gonna do today.

Speaker 5

Well, thanks for having me.

Speaker

Um, we're we're glad to have you. So you were you were performing at Venice last night. I was. Like, I mean, what's a day in the life of Matty Shell in 2026?

Speaker 5

A day in the life. Honestly, it's pretty chill. It's a lot of I I wake up every morning, I clean my kitchen, I have two cups of coffee and just kind of chill. And then um, I usually start playing a little guitar. I've been practicing a lot of guitar lately. Because I got tired of um not having a guitar player to all, you know, always available. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, shit, I gotta learn how to do this myself. So um a little guitar. Nate and I'll make a good lunch. Nate's a great cook. Nate is my husband, by the way. Um, and then, you know, yesterday I had an afternoon nap so I could last through the nine to nine to one Venice gig, or nine to midnight or so. Um, but yeah, and then I played Venice and it's kind of just chilling in the neighborhood, really. We love Ben Car. Yeah.

Speaker

That's amazing.

Speaker 5

Obviously, other days are busier than, you know, there's busy days and there's chill days, but that was my day yesterday.

Speaker

One

Breaking Free from Productivity Culture

Speaker

of the things that I love the most, I think that I feel when you say that, is that uh as an artist, uh there is there is like ritual and repetition, but every day there's there's this sense that every day is kind of different. You know what I mean? So like yeah, that's a a Tuesday in America. But you're living, I I think you're living a life what you described there is is ultimately kind of unconventional.

Speaker 5

Oh, for sure. I mean, I mean Nate and I say all the time, this is like a Tom Robbins, the author Tom Robbins quote, but like the biggest form of like protest or like not wanting to live the way that society, you know, a normie would say we should live, um, or the nine to five or the rat race, he says the biggest protest you can do is just to not participate. Don't participate in any of that shit. So I, you know, I whereas like I used to get down on myself, like, um, you know, I should be doing this eight hours a day, or if this is my job, I have to do it 40 hours a week. And it's like, you can't, I can't do that eight hours a day. I can't do one thing eight hours a day. I have to find, you know, whether it and some days are more, you know, like productive than others. But I try and not get on myself about productivity. It's such a it's such a thing that like's just been drilled into us. You have to be productive, you have to be productive, yeah, and then you feel guilty when you're not. And I'm just like that's such a you know, and then we wonder why we all have anxiety and you know, I've been I know I feel that I've been thinking a lot about that.

Comparison, Burnout & Artist Pressure

Speaker

That is um, I've been trying to put some of that down, that that mentality of of producing and achieving. But sometimes that feels uh for me, I want and I want to know what you think about this. Like as even as musicians and creatives, I feel like we're given these archetypes or these stories uh of our heroes, you know. Like I I'm just picturing so many of my musical heroes. It's and and when you learn about their lives and when you it's like wow, they they just work so hard and they they grind, you know, the grind and all that stuff. And I'm I'm always trying to freaking make sense of that because and try like I'm kind of try to pattern that. Yeah. But then I'm that there's that burnout. There's that you you have to zoom in.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and

Life on Bigger Stages

Speaker 5

I like look at these big artists. They're on a, you know, like say someone like huge, like Sabrina Carpenter or whatever. I look at the, you know, their tour schedule, there, then they're on late night, then they're uh they're on this commercial, then a TV show, and I'm just like, when do they go home? And I need that. I don't think, you know, I wouldn't, I don't think I could live that lifestyle. I don't think I could do the grind. It's just not me.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Um, but I also had to come to terms with like you don't have to. You don't feel bad about it.

unknown

Yeah.

Speaker 5

And a lot of times, musicians, we like front load our work. So you could do be on tour for a month and work your ass off, and then you get home and then you gotta go, okay, it's okay. I can just sit here. I can just chill.

Speaker

Um that's that's rare though. I feel like that's that's a beautiful thing. It's really hard in this world that we're in as artists, I think, especially um these sort of spheres that you and I inhabit.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker

Or the whatever it is, the tears, because um, it's just we're we're just beat over the head with like the comparison culture of of the online world and like, man, everyone's doing this. I see you, uh, what you're doing. Sometimes I'm sitting at home and you're on stage at the Vegan or the freaking film or with who knows who. And you're I I just it's it's hard for me even not to go, oh my gosh. You know, I wish I was doing that. I wish I was there with her, but it's also super exciting when you're uh true story texting me that you're maybe like, what are you standing next to Harrison Floor?

Speaker 5

I can't even believe that. That was so wild.

Speaker

I cannot even believe that.

Speaker 5

Well,

Playing with Legendary Musicians

Speaker 5

I can't either. When I'm out there and when I'm at the beacon or somewhere like that, I'm like, what the f am I doing here, man?

Speaker

Yeah. Um tell tell me about that life, because that's a part of your that's a really big part of your life that and your artistic life is that scene and those adventures you've had.

Speaker 5

Yeah. Well, I mean, I feel lucky to be included with all those people. But the cool thing about it is that when I get there, I may be nervous or whatever. When I get there, I realize I can hang. And that's the coolest part is you go, okay, I'm not like the weakest link here. I'm actually hanging with these with Robert Randolph and Dwayne Betts. You know what I mean? Like it's it's not like they're like, oh great, here comes the amateur. It's like we're all professionals, and I'm on this, you know, a different level now than say I was three, four years ago with all of that. I feel like I feel like I've improved, you know, I listen to like recordings of River Kittens, and I'm like, holy shit, I'm I've it's it's nice to be able to actually see the growth and the

Growth & Progress as an Artist

Speaker 5

progress.

Speaker

I love that.

Speaker 5

Um, because you don't see it day to day.

Speaker

Um you start to see it, you start to see it at earliest at a year, I've noticed. Like depends on what I'm what I'm working on or what I'm looking back, but I I've noticed it takes at least a year for things I practice to show up on stage. I mean, literally best case scenario, yeah. Sometimes it's like years, you know.

Speaker 5

Well, and like it's funny because you can do it at home and then you get on stage. Oh, yeah. And it's like I'll I'll take the greatest guitar solos at home when I'm comfortable. Yeah. Get up on stage and I absolutely biff it. So it's like, you know.

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Speaker

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Speaker 5

Isn't

A Career-Defining Performance Moment

Speaker 5

that so crazy? A wedding, yeah.

Speaker

Uh, you know, a COVID wedding where it was like so uh almost scandalous still to do it. And it was just it was during that whole thing, and it was like it felt so good though. It felt so good to just be, you know, be normal that night and sing and perform and like who cares? And we were smoking cigars.

Speaker 5

I yeah, and then we got to hang out in the in the lounge at the Missouri Athletic Club. Oh my god. Speaking of, you know, places I don't belong, you know. Like I feel more, you know, comfortable on stage at the beacon than I do in the in the lounge at MAC. Totally not not not no nothing against MAC.

Speaker

You seem like you can inhabit all these world all these worlds though, because you're you're you're this you have this cool getup on, by the way. I love your every time you have these like the you come to the.

Speaker 5

I told you I was gonna wear my three-piece suit, but I went with a sweatshirt.

Speaker

No, you have a you have a look that's that's hip, and you're you're this, okay. So you're also your bio says it, but it's true. That's a great bio, by the way. A songwriter. I know I was being a little cheeky with it, but no, that's good press. A songwriter, a soul shouter, a country crooner, and a rock and roll maniac, all in one.

Speaker 5

I mean, you you you have a now you know how my how my husband thinks of me.

Speaker

Maniac. I like that too. I wouldn't, I mean, it's true though. It's like you're you're and you're also this country, you're the truth is you're kind of a country girl. I mean, is that like a fair thing to say?

Small Town Roots & Musical Upbringing

Speaker 5

I mean, I'm from a small town for sure. I don't I didn't like grow up in the country. Um, but there are years where I lived like 100 feet from the Mississippi River. Um, so that's pretty country. Yeah. Um I mean Jerseyville.

Speaker

That's when I I'm a city kid and and you are a city person now. Like that's your artistic place, but but to me, that that your upbringing and the stories of that feel like a world apart.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and also my like my family played a lot of bluegrass in country tunes. Um, my uncle Wayne, who we were talking about earlier, who just passed away, but he um started like the Shell Brothers bluegrass band in the 70s, and we still have all those recordings, and we'd have this uh huge party every year. It's called the Shell June jam. And uh it was the rules were because there's so many shells. My dad's one of 13. I have 60 first cousins, you know, on that side alone. Um, there's so many that the rule was if you know a shell or you know somebody that knows a shell, or you know somebody that knows somebody that knows a shell, you're invited. And that's like, well, that's everyone in the damn world. So does that party still exist? I mean,

Family Jam Sessions & Bluegrass Influence

Speaker 5

it does.

Speaker

Um could I cash my in a different invite in?

Speaker 5

Yeah, you know. Absolutely. This will probably be a good year for it because we'll have to have a big celebration for Uncle Wayne. Um, but yeah, so we would have this huge jam, and everyone from, you know, they'd people can even come in from out of state and we'd have it on my Uncle Gary's farm in Nutwood, Illinois. It was so beautiful. There'd be like gator rides, not alligator, but gator tractor. Um, gator rides and horse rides, and we'd all just be out by the barn jamming little potluck. And I mean, just a see a field of people playing instruments. Wow. It was it was a really cool and just any family get together, gathering, anything like that. There was always a circle of some of people playing music. So I was just kind of surrounded with that, and that's like kind of the the country in me, I think.

Speaker

And that sounds like the start of your musical formation.

Speaker 5

That

Musical Theater Beginnings

Speaker 5

and musical theater.

Speaker

Oh, okay. Okay. I like I see that a lot. You're you're incredibly theatrical, you're incredibly charismatic, even when you're not singing or playing. I think there's like an acting. Well, yeah, like do like impressions and shit. Yeah.

Speaker 5

Um, yeah, I started off when I was a kid, like really young, doing my my parents loved my mom, was always singing and playing music in the house. My mom's a good singer and piano player, and I would always sing three-part harmony with my mom and my sister. Like to where you'd be like, get off my part. Yeah. In the car or whatever. That's why I like to this day, I can sit, you know, quick harmonize with anything because it's just second nature because my mom we did it so often. Um, but yeah, like there were years where I was in this uh community theater company called the Calhoun Entertainment Company. Calhoun County. Calhoun County, Illinois, that's right. I love that. Um and my because my mom was a teacher over there and then a principal. So we spent a lot of time over there. And uh you would not expect Calhoun to have a community theater program, but they had an excellent, it was really cool.

Speaker

Um sounds like a Christopher Guest movie. There's like a waiting for death. Like, I say that in a good way. It's like 100% way. That's kind of how I'm picturing the day of a show, y'all. Community theater.

Speaker 5

I mean it's exactly like Blaine, Missouri, yes. Um yeah, they uh there was one year where we did the music man, and I my mom was grandmother, my dad was Buddy Hackett's part to sing Sha Poopy, you know? I was Ron Howard, little Ron Howard, the little boy, um Winthrop. My sister was one of the like Watanyi girls. My aunt Janet was I mean, our whole family was that's incredible. So we would do it together, and then my siblings were both in musicals in high school, and I used to love going to watch them, and I just wanted to grow up so I could do it, you know.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Get in show choir. I wanted to be in show choir so bad. And then like my dream ultimately when I was young was to like be on Broadway. Okay. You know, I had starry eyes for Broadway. And then like when I was 14 and I s my friends and I started like a band in in the summer, and we got guitars. It was an all-girl band.

Speaker

What

First Band & Early Music Experiences

Speaker

was the what was the set list or some of the songs, you know?

Speaker 5

Well, we had original some original music, but we also played some Christian tunes.

Speaker

Okay, I like that. Yeah, it was your first one of your big influence. Christian rock band called At a Girl. That's incredible.

unknown

Yeah.

Speaker 5

So then I was like, oh, okay, this is this is cool. I want to be in a band.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 5

And I kind of abandoned the musical theater.

Speaker

So I'm loving this story because I don't actually know. I mean, you know, I hear you talk about things in passing, you know, but I've never- Well, it's rare that we would sit down and have a conversation.

Speaker 5

No, it's great.

Speaker

All these people that I've known in the in the industry and are friends, but I still don't really know their their true story, you know. So what I don't know. So you're 14 and you're in this, you're in this, you're getting your first taste of performance. And then yeah, is it is it a really strong intuition for you, or does it unfold more subtly than that over the next couple years? Because eventually I know you moved to North Carolina at some point, but then I first encountered you in St. Louis in in the mid-2010s with the River Kittens.

College, Belmont & Finding Direction

Speaker 5

There were definitely some years where I w was not planning on being a musician. Um, I went after high school, I went to Belmont in that school. That's right. Okay. And I hate I hated it. Like it I went for music business.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Because that's kind of like what people were telling us to do at the time.

Speaker

Fellow music business. That's what that was like huge at the time. Yeah. 2004. It was like because you couldn't be, you didn't want to like be a musician. That was too that wasn't college. You know what I'm saying? Right. Like, and our probably our culture, our parents were like, gotta go to college, you know.

Speaker 5

Well, also, I didn't want to do like the performance major.

Speaker

I didn't want to do recitals and juries and all that shit. Could you even? Because I remember being like, I wanted to, but I didn't have the I didn't know jazz. There was no so you can't do that.

Speaker 5

I feel like Belmont was more like it's less like Berkeley as in the jazz program, but it's more like musical. The performance major was more of a musical theater performance. Um, and then my roommate was like opera, and I I was just like, I just want to rock and roll. I don't want to do any of that. Because that's the world I came from.

Speaker

Auditions and I see. Were you there the whole time?

Speaker 5

Or I mean, was that just a chapter or I did two years of Elmot and then I went to MTSU. Okay.

Speaker

Which is like cheaper and Middle Tennessee State University. Yeah.

Speaker 5

Okay. Uh it's just like 20 minutes down the road. And I never I mean, I never graduated with any degree, but uh I majored in history at MTSU just because I was like, I can do music. I can do music always, anywhere. Behind the scene always. Um let me major in something I'm actually interested in because I'm not interested in business or copyright law. So I went to MTSU, did history and did um I I felt like I was gonna be a teacher. I was really interested in like um archival history, which I still am. Um but ultimately after I moved back here after Belmont, um that's when I kind of started dating this guy named Dave Lawz, and we started playing with my Uncle Wayne at the pub in Grafton.

Speaker

I

Returning to Music & Live Performance

Speaker

see.

Speaker 5

And that's when I started like getting back into music and wanting to perform live and that's realizing oh this is what feeds me really is performing live. Um so yeah, if it weren't for Uncle Wayne, I wouldn't have probably I probably would have still been kind of lost, like you know, bartending or something.

Speaker

Yeah, totally. You've always seemed to me to be sort of on the path, or like I'm thinking of when I first met you and the river kittens, you know. I don't know, you just you just were always I don't really know if you were the leader in of that group, but it was just you were the the the experienced one or the foundation. Somehow the the kind of you just seemed you seem very like you you you knew you knew your north star. I was the oldest. You know, maybe that's maybe that's maybe that's it. I don't know. I'm just thinking you've always just seemed like you knew you you you're happy on stage, you're comfortable there, you want to be there, you're you're living the artist's life, you know, and it's and it's really built to a crescendo now.

Flow State & Performing Live

Speaker 5

Well, and I think I mean being on stage, it's not just like, oh, it's nice to get feedback. It's more like I I I don't know. Like I said, it's what feeds me. I don't know what it is. I don't know, it's just a feeling.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 5

You forget about everything else.

Speaker

Flow state. Yeah, as they call it professionally now, but it's true.

Speaker 5

And sometimes if you are thinking, if I am thinking, like, okay, I'm playing, I'm singing, and I'm thinking about something in my head. Like I'm thinking, man, that sounds like shit. Why does that sound like shit? Or I'm thinking, you know, there are days like that where performing is not feeding me because I feel like I'm yeah, doing something wrong.

Speaker

Isn't it amazing though, how we can do all those things at once? Yes. I I so that's the wild, because then you can be thinking about the fact that you're thinking about something.

Speaker 5

I know, and I go, you need to stop thinking about and you're still playing and singing.

Speaker

Oh, it's wild. That's a crazy thing.

Speaker 5

Sometimes you're on autopilot, you're like, I don't even remember doing the first which one are we on, you know.

Speaker

Exactly. And that's crazy. That's a phenomenon. Yeah, that's a phenomenon. And I always make the joke where it's it because it still baffles me. I'm like, how can I really forget the words to my own song that I freaking wrote? Yeah, and that I played maybe a hundred times, and you still if you yeah, if you're not if you're not really present, that's a yeah, how do you um I would say at this point um in your career, you you've had so much experience. How do you have a philosophy when you're performing? Like, are you really trying to stay present? Or does it are you just able to because you've done it so much? But what is what's kind of going through your head before the stage?

Pre-Show Nerves & Mindset

Speaker 5

I think the second I think about being present that I'm already. Yeah, you know what I mean? I am already in my head about it.

Speaker

Totally, absolutely. Um you know, but do you just like do you have any you just you take it for granted, or is it just every show? Do you feel like the confidence, or are there is there anything that you kind of still are wrestling with, you know, before you, I don't know, a pre show, or is It depends on the show. Yeah.

Speaker 5

You know, if it's like, you know, last night at Venice Cafe and I'm comfortable there, it's my neighborhood spot. I, you know, I never feel like taken out of it because I'm nervous or whatever. Um sometimes those smaller shows or it depends on who I'm playing with, too. Yeah. You know, because sometimes it's somebody that you look up to or respect, and you're like, I don't want to mess this up. And then you're nervous and then it takes you out of the moment.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Playing with Artists You Admire

Speaker 5

Like when I w first went to do a rehearsal with um with Alman Family Revival, I was standing next to Dwayne Betts, who is an incredible guitar player. And I'm just recently getting better at electric guitar. I'm just going ready to play this part. You know, I'm all nervous. I keep I messed up the solo the first time on the rehearsal. And then I was kind of a little shaky. Dwayne's like looking over, he's like, what the hell's going on? Are you nervous or something? And I was like, Yes, I am actually. And he goes, Oh my God, you don't gotta, you know. And he said, lay the seat back a little. And then I went out, and then I it was fine. But it's not, you know, people like Dwayne or people that you respect or look up to musically, like they don't realize how a little thing like that can mean the world to you, you know. Like if Luther Dickinson tell tells me, like, hey, that that little thing you did there was was pretty sick. It's like he has no idea how far that will get me this year. Yeah.

Speaker

I even even hearing that, I'm going, wow, that's a that's an incredible. You've probably had a many of those moments being in that scene.

Speaker 5

Yeah, but I will say it's hard, it's that's incredible. Sometimes it's harder to stay present in those moments because I'm nervous. But I think my only mantra when I go on stage is like, don't have ass anything. You have to do it 100.

Speaker

Totally.

Winning Over Any Crowd

Speaker 5

I don't care who's there. Like last night at Venice Cafe, if there's two people that's hard to do though.

Speaker

Those those empty rooms or those small rooms, I I don't know. I f I've that's that's a that's the biggest challenge of all for me to freaking ring it.

Speaker 5

Yeah to win them all, you know, you can win any room over, and that's that's you know, that's my goal. Totally. Just win them over, just win every room over. So you got a couple couple people who will remember, you know, and come back next time.

Speaker

Yeah, absolutely. You won people over uh on New Year's Eve.

New Year’s Eve Performance Story

Speaker 5

That was fun. When yeah, thank God I had a voice this year.

Speaker

Yeah, that was I was I go back and watch those videos of Shoop, which was your idea, I think, because you you were texting me, we got to do Shoop. And you and Bianca, and there's this great crowd video someone sent me, and I just get so much out of that watching you both and watching the crowd. And it is one of those moments where it's really an a like this beautiful living organism, the whole crowd and the stage, and there's confetti flying.

Speaker 5

Well, with shows like that, people don't that's another thing people don't realize behind the scenes. We're all going, I hope it goes all right. You know, like we're a rehearsal, we're like, well, that was rough. And then we come back the next day, and absolutely like Bianca came back the next day, absolutely nailed it. You know what I mean? Like, I was just it's it's cool to be on stage with someone like Bianca too, because she just exudes she is uh she has it presence and talent and sex appeal. I mean, she's got it all. You know what I mean? She's just like an incredible performer. So to do that with her and to like have that rough of a rehearsal, which is always a good thing. Yeah, you do it perfect at rehearsal, it's gonna be a rough performance for me.

Speaker

See, I don't even remember it being that rough a rehearsal because I think I also had you had so many things in my brain, and I was just like, I'm that's my I love that about our guests on that show is I can I can just you and Bianca it's your show for a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I can just be like, okay, I'm gonna go take a freaking water break or something.

Speaker 5

Yeah, any show like that, it kind of feels like everything always comes together last minute, and we go, oh man, that's great. Thank God. Like Voodoo Last Waltz or Alma Family, any big show like that. There's a lot of guests and a lot of changes and a lot of that, like people, you know, we might in the best case scenario, we might make it look seamless and it might go off without a hitch. And no one ever knew. You know, no one will ever know that we were thinking it might not.

Speaker

That's

What Makes a Great Performer

Speaker

the that's one of the biggest skill, or uh what what's the word for it? I don't know. The one of the biggest elements of a successful performer or an entertainer is that what you're named right there, is uh there's so much under the surface, but but the presentation of it is it just doesn't show that, you know? Yeah, and that's an interesting that's a really interesting thing.

Speaker 5

You can't let on the yeah, because it's acting just as much as it is.

Speaker

I feel

New Music & Recording in California

Speaker

like um okay, so one thing I want to ask you about is your is your new recordings in LA. Because you sent me some of the songs and I loved them and and the song No Stone. Um that it's funny. I hear to I hear this um Grateful Dead influence in that song. Really? Um, but but and and it I don't know, in the in the sort of ballad, in the sort of full folk tradition, that's just what I heard. The chord changes, the melody. It kind of um, it kind of moves, it has the sweeping, uh, but but still like rootsy thing. And also I'm getting a little bit of Pocahontas theme song in it. Oh yeah. As well, some of the melodies. And I don't know, I'm just it reminds me of your cover of Broke Down Palace, and and that that song Broke Down Palace has the same makes me feel the same way. Okay, yeah. So ta talk to me about that song and maybe those sessions.

The Story Behind “No Stone”

Speaker 5

That song actually why I wrote that song is because I just had in my like a image in my head that was like this like old timey funeral out in the country. Okay. Like it wasn't any even I wasn't picturing anyone I knew or was related to or like historical figure or anything like that. It was just like this beautiful meadow and this beautiful old timey like 1800s like wedding in the you know, in the country. And that's I feel that's kind of what I wrote was like a funeral, uh, an epitaph or a eulogy or something.

Speaker

I think that's that's what I mean by the dead thing, is it has that sort of old Americana thing going on in the language and the and the the melodies and stuff.

Speaker 5

Interesting. Well, uh that's interesting you say that because I I probably was listening to A Lot of Grateful Dead when I did write that, but it wasn't thinking about, you know, it wasn't thinking in my head like let's try and write something more like that. Yeah, it just that was one of those songs that I wrote quickly and it came out and it was done in a day. And wow. That's my favorite kind of songwriting. It's like the one that I go, oh, that took me two hours and it's and it's finished. Because otherwise it might take me a year.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 5

I either have one or the other.

Recording with Legendary Musicians

Speaker

I'm always in the boat of it takes me a year. A long time. And that's another thing I can envy Matty Shell, uh, is those quick songs because they're so elusive. Yeah. I I've almost I'm still chasing that that experience, and who knows, you know?

Speaker 5

It feels good because it's like, damn, I got that. Yeah. Speaking of productivity, well, I'm done for the day.

Speaker 2

Exactly. Because that should have taken a year. Yeah, I go fuck on. Oh my god.

Speaker 5

Play some video games now. But yeah, it was really cool to uh we did that at um Pliers Studios in Santa Clarita, I think. Santa Clarita, California, and it's just this legendary spot. This guy named Jim Scott uh produced tons of Americana records that we love. Yeah, that I bet he's he produced the Whiskey Town stuff, and he did a lot of Ryan Adams, and he did like um he did Wildflowers by Tom Petty and he did Car Wheels on a Gravel Road by Lucinda Williams, and he's done.

Speaker

I mean I mean that's crazy. It's funny, I was like that song No Stone also reminds me of of Ryan Adams and the Cardinals, that that era, whatever Cold Roses album.

Speaker 5

It's kind of like um Dear John.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah. And then that album, and isn't Greg the pedal steel player guy? Greg Lees. Wasn't he on those sessions or something? I don't know. I just felt like I was kind of connecting some dots. He was on my sessions, yeah. And then I think he anyway, he's pretty. I think he's pretty on a lot of records, I guess.

Speaker 5

Yeah, he was probably on a lot of records.

Speaker

It was exciting to hear about all of that.

Speaker 5

They did the uh the Dixie Chicks, the year they won all those Grammys that Jim Scott was there. Incredible. Um so it was just cool to work with with Jim. He's like a master at what he does, and he's got like the NEA console that everyone wants in their studio. Yeah. There's only like what, I don't know, four or five of them or something in the world. Um, which there is one in here in here in St. Louis, by the way. Yeah. Carl Napa has one.

Speaker

Okay. I I've been hearing about this.

Speaker 5

If you want a Neve console recording in St. Louis, you can do it. Um, but yeah, it was cool to meet Jim and to work with him. And then our friend John Ginti, he plays the organ for the Almond Betts band. He was in the original Robert Randolph in the family band. He was in the Dixie Chick. Like he's been in a lot of really cool projects. Um, he's the one that took us out there. Those are all his dudes. He's been making, he's made more records with Jim Scott than I have years I've been alive. Okay. So they've been working together for incredible 20, 30 years. Same with Greg Lees and Bob Gloud, the bot bass player. And they're both in Jackson Brown's band right now, currently.

Inside the Studio Experience

Speaker

Wow, and that and that was the session band for your album. That was the session band for my album. Freaking incredible. That was pretty cool.

Speaker 5

Well, just those three songs, and we ended up, we didn't know this was gonna happen, but we ended up having the last ever recording session at Player Studios. So it's like last, I mean, that closed the doors after we left. Whoa, that's crazy. Yeah.

Speaker

That's this could be a big record when it's like, or I don't know.

Speaker 5

I mean, I could just, you know, it's just a cool thing to say. We did the last session at Pliers. I mean, that's that's totally epic. Yeah.

Speaker

So what is the um what do you envision for these recordings? And as we as we know, it could be years before they come out. I know it would be so frustrating. I know, but but we always want to shorten that gap, but somehow it it extends. But yeah, what is this project? Well, it always records with the record label.

Speaker 5

You

Releasing Music in Today’s Industry

Speaker 5

know what I mean? I feel like it extends. There's more red tape, there's more. I feel like for those three songs that I did um in that studio, one of them was a Neil Casal song. Um, so the Neil Casal Foundation will probably take take that and and try and get it played on the radio, you know, on Sirius or what, you know, because all the money from that one will go to his foundation, which is a suicide awareness um foundation. I think they give to young musicians as well. But uh, so that one will be kind of separate or have its own deal. And then I would really like to release a couple singles like in this before the summer, like that. I did a tune that I think is like the perfect like feel good hit of the summer. Like everyone can dance to this. Um, so I want to put it out before the summer. But we'll see if that because you know, nowadays basically the record labels say, like, you can't sell a single. And you can't, unless you, you know, unless it's hitting these streaming numbers, you're not gonna make it. So to them, money-wise, it's in it's not in anyone's best interest to just put out a single. They want something physical, something he can put in a store. They want a whole record. He can sell records, he can't sell a single. So it's like kind of, but then again, we have this trend where people like Sierra Farrell and Billy Straight, you know, these people are putting out singles, you know.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 5

And then they'll put out the record and there's all your singles on it. So I would like to do something like that. I don't know, you know. We just came back, you know, we just got back, so I'm not sure what the future holds for these songs, but I really like you're saying, I really hope I don't have to wait two years. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's but now that they're recorded, at least I can start playing them live. Because, you know, you get sick of, you know, I've been playing the same original tunes for years now, and then I couldn't play the the new ones yet if there was gonna be, you know, if it was gonna be videotaped or whatever, you can't unreleased music or unrecorded music is kind of tricky. So I, you know, I haven't been playing these songs live, and now I can, so that's a relief.

Speaker

Looking

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Speaker

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Speaker 5

I

The Hardest Part of Being a Musician Today

Speaker 5

think the most frustrating thing as a musician is that everybody wants their music for free. Everybody wants it for free. Even like the local, you know, bar you play or whatever. Or if you have someone call you for a private gig, or you go, well, it's it's this much. And they go, for what? For three hours of music. And what they don't understand is, yeah, three hours of music and a lifetime of fucking rehearsal and practice. Yeah. And every day, you know, and loading, driving there, getting my loading my stuff in, out, in, out, and I mean, all in all the loading and stuff, you know, it's not that big of a deal. But people don't realize what they're paying for. It's not just the songs, it's not just the three hours I'm there, the hundred hours I spent learning and practicing and getting calling, you know, getting our schedules together. You know, it's just there's a lot going on behind the scenes that I think people just a lot of times people see musicians as just kind of like not as much, not as much now as maybe they used to, like a drain on society or something. They're not a contributing to society or in that workforce productivity way.

The Value of Music & Getting Paid

Speaker

Um or like yeah, you're talking about the stereotype of like druggie, like yeah, partyers or or get a which we can be that too, but yeah, the whole idea of like, oh, there's a real job versus musician's job or whatever, go get a real job, or that's why you have to go to college, or which is so funny to me that also at the same time as those ideas were more prevalent, probably in the past decades, there was there everyone was worshiping the celebrity status of musicians. It's just like it's always that just puzzles me. It's kind of we as a society, we worship uh the most successful people and a lot, whatever that means. But that a lot of times turns out to be obviously athletes, but like musicians, like creative movie stars and stuff. And yet when you go into those fields and you try to pursue that, it's it's uh shunned or it's considered one in a million.

Speaker 5

Well, I mean, that's what's also frustrating, is that real music some of at the highest level of you know pay, the music isn't always all the highest level of music. It's not not it. Sometimes it's not even real music, it's not even a real person.

Streaming, AI & The Future of Music

Speaker

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5

Um that's yeah, so that's frustrating. Not that AI is completely like taking my job right now, but that is part of the problem at with the streaming service. You know, everybody knows the whole story beside behind Spotify and all but not really though.

Speaker

That's that's what musicians know the whole story. Right, right. I don't think the general public is they'll never understand it the way we do or feel it the way we do because nothing's being taken from them. It's being given in terms of the availability, the cheapness, aka the fre the zero price, and it exactly what you said. People um kind of expect it to be free. They think they deserve it. It is um that's gonna that's affecting that's affecting art and music in big ways, and it's gonna we're gonna be watching that effect for years to come. And I don't think it's gonna be necessarily a good thing.

Speaker 5

Listen, I do think in a way, I think music should be free too. Because the most pure form of music is what, like playing on your front porch with your family or your friends. Wow. Or like if we, you know, sorry, if we were to go outside and jam right now, that's free. And that's some of the realest music you can play or listen to. But if you want that free music, then learn how to play a guitar and go out on your front fucking porch and sing. Otherwise, you gotta pay me to do it, you know.

Speaker

Totally.

Should Music Be Free?

Speaker

That's no, that's some that's some heavy stuff when you when you realize how much um of what we do as as musicians is is just so inherently wrapped up with capitalism and with these the real thing.

Speaker 5

Which is so hard because it's the thing that comes from within you and comes from the heart. And then of course they have to capitalize on.

Speaker

And it always has been, and that's I I that's I catch myself thinking about that it it like in those terms 99% of the time because I'm just trying to be a professional, you know, and and make it. I'm trying to freaking make it. Um wow. Um, so uh one thing I would love to to know from you is is what um and one thing that I want to know from all, I guess. It's a little it's a little vague, but but it's real for me. What does it mean? What does it mean to be from St. Louis? To you and and what specifically what does it mean to be a creator and a musician that that's that's from here and that's living here and shaped by this place.

The St. Louis Music Scene

Speaker 5

Um I don't know like how fully I can answer that question, but I will say the thing I love about music in St. Louis is that it's always it remains exciting. Um like sometimes I feel like when I go to Nashville, for example, you'll go to a show and it's like this incredible artist that you've been waiting to see forever. And then you get in the room and there's no excitement, there's no energy, there's no because everyone in that room is saying, Well, I could play that. Well, I can sing that. I can do that. It's like they it's like so industry obsessed that the excitement's gone. It's kind of weird. And not not every show, but this is just something I noticed at a few shows in the totally. Um, but St. Louis, it like even if you're at a Wednesday voodoo night, the energy is fucking there. Yeah, you know. Um and it and and the people who love music in St. Louis and love musicians, like really let us know it. And I feel like that's part of like the Midwest nice. I feel like that's and I'm not even sure if this I guess, you know, this area has definitely shaped the music that I write. Um, I a lot of my songs are like total store, like a storytelling of an actual historic event or thing from you know, this area. Um, like I have a song called Cock Eyed Johnny Cody. My great-grandfather got arrested and put in the Sular jail over a hundred times. Wow. What? Yeah, he was like a gangster in the 20s.

Speaker

Holy

Storytelling Through Local History

Speaker

smoke. I mean, a hundred incredible.

Speaker 5

And so, like, stuff like that. I mean, that's an obvious and like a tangible.

Speaker

Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 5

Well, yeah, like it was in the post-dispatch. And I read about it and was like, I gotta write a song. And that's your a great grandfather. And his name was Cockey Johnny Cody. He had like a weird eye that looked the other way.

Speaker

That's incredible.

Speaker 5

He was shot and killed on Bayless Avenue. They found him in a ditch. He was 27. Yeah, dude. He was 27.

Speaker

He is like, I mean, that's just kind of legendary or epic. I don't know. That's incredible.

Speaker 5

The whole well, the article in the post of spatch says he stole like seventeen dollars from this bar on Park Avenue. And then they found him in a ditch on Bayless Avenue in the morning, which you know back then Bayless Avenue was far.

Speaker

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Oh yeah. Wow. They took him out there to kill him for sure.

Speaker

And you you basically wrote a modern day folk song. That reminds me of like um Frankie and Johnny, that song is it not a St. Louis thing that happened in the 20s.

Speaker 5

Oh my gosh, that's so funny.

Speaker

That I that I don't know the uh the great granddaughter of the freaking protagonist in the song. That's insane.

Speaker 5

Um, and you know what else is funny? Nate's grandmother is when she passed away, the the song that she wanted us to sing at her funeral was Frankie and John.

Speaker

Oh, really? I I love that song. I love that song.

Speaker 5

Um I was like, of course, Babu wants like a murder ballad, like a murder ballad for her um last song, but it was hilarious, and of course it was a hit with at the funeral. Wow. Um, but yeah, that I and then I have an uh other songs that I've written about, like Alton and the and and the Rivertown, Rivertown Trip is yeah, um that's a one of those songs that took me forever to put out. I wrote it in 2009. Wow, okay, um, and it's changed many times through years. And that's just the final boss version of it. Yeah, totally the version that JD Simo like he put that Memphis soul sound to it.

Speaker

Yeah, that's

Songwriting Process & Evolution

Speaker

a great recording. Who's playing on that cut? That is JD Simo on get on electric. Uh-huh. Very cool. I th I assumed it was Jacob.

Speaker 5

Just because he uses in his studio. Um Joe Mack, uh Joe McMahon is a another guy that's playing guitar on that. And he's actually from here.

Speaker

Cool.

Speaker 5

But I didn't meet him until I went to Nashville.

Speaker

And he lives down there? Yeah, he lives down there now. Fascinating. Um what so so you've talked a little bit about your songwriting too, but I I want to know, I'm kind of curious about your your you're such a singer to me. That's the first way, you know, that's that's a big way that people see you. And you're you're an amazing vocalist. Thanks. What do you who's influenced you and and and and what I don't know, how how do you see yourself as a singer? Or do you think about it like that?

Speaker 5

I

Vocal Influences & Finding Her Voice

Speaker 5

I think my s I think singing my voice is probably my main instrument. Um I feel most comfortable with, you know what I mean? I never worry I worry about what my fingers are gonna do. I never really worry about yeah, yeah. What's gonna come out here. I don't have to. I don't want to think about it. I don't think about um my influence is probably like I said before, like my mom is a big vocal influence for me, I think.

Speaker

And she's a singer.

Speaker 5

She's a singer.

Speaker

We well, I mean, she's not like you know, no, but yeah, she can sing. I'm just saying she sang you're literally talking about her this her voice.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and even if I yeah, even if I started singing a song right now, she would harmonize with me. She'd come in and harm she knew the song. She'd come in and do it do the third above me or whatever. But she she's definitely a big influence, I think. And then um my teachers. I mean, I had really great choir, I had really great choir teachers. One in particular, her name is Christine Baer. She still lives in Jerseyville. Um, I still see her not often, but every now and then. Um she just was sh one of those teachers who you wanted to live in her classroom. You wanted to be there all day. And same with my band, my b high school band director. Wow. So I just had really yeah supportive, a really supportive community at that age, and really and my parents were super supportive. I had great teachers. And that's one of those things where like I'll say something innate, like, oh, I'm not even I didn't work that for this. I just had this naturally. I could sing when I was little, you know. I could sing immediately. And he was like, But you did. He's like, you don't realize all those years in in choir and show choir and band and you know your high school band. And he's like, You did, you did. You you worked really hard to get where you are now, and uh it was just you didn't realize it because it was fun and you were enjoying yourself. Um so yeah, my mom, my teachers, and then like you know, God, name a singer that you love, I'm sure.

Speaker

No, I know that's a hard question.

Speaker 5

Ray Charles, yeah, Aretha.

Speaker

I mean and I love this discussion. I loved it.

Speaker 5

I loved Bob Dylan. I even like his voice.

Speaker

Yeah, me too. Um he's a great singer, actually.

Speaker 5

Yeah, because that's like such a Watson. I love his. I mean, I vocally, I think I can take inspiration from pretty much anyone as long as they're on key. Yeah.

Speaker

And I've I've heard, I've actually feel like I've heard in your singing specifically, but probably in your whole musicality, the result of the last five plus years of you being in the world of the Allman brothers, you know? And so, like, maybe you don't even think about like that, but I hear Greg Allman and of course Susan. Uh such a such a yeah, exactly. And so I've I've kind of I feel like you're definitely you am you're carrying on that that lineage of that that blue-eyed soul singer or whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, I do I well I those are serious vocalists, like Susan, for example, especially.

Speaker 5

Yeah,

Influence of Touring with the Allman Scene

Speaker 5

they could give me a a Dicky song, but why would they do that when I could sing a Craig's song, you know?

Speaker

Although I I love Dicky's voice. Dickey's melodies and voices all is so amazing. And and but that's had that has to have been a big that you have had to have soaking up so much of that music.

Speaker 5

Well, you know, it's funny, like I listened to the I was, you know, I liked the Alman Brothers when I was younger and it was my dad's music, and we I knew all, you know, the hits and stuff, but I mean I didn't delve into the Allman Brothers like like I know them now until I started going on tour with those guys. And now it's like well, you know, I could name or I could sing along to almost anything they do now, but yeah, before I went out with those guys, I did I did I I wasn't a huge Alman Brothers fan like um con consume like I didn't consume a lot of that. Uh same with the Grateful Dead. I got in the Grateful Dead way late in life compared to most people, I think. Um and so I yeah, even in the like we were talking about earlier, I can see the progression of even my vocals since River Kittens, like just looking back and listening back. But I didn't think about that. I probably have been influenced by that, and it probably has to change the way I sing too.

Speaker

Um other people see it when you don't, maybe, and not that I have some theory around it, but I'll just just thinking about the times that I've that I've heard you play in in the last couple years. And you know, that the it's funny, you're you're banned, and it'll be it could be in a very subtle setting or like a a non-showy setting. I'm thinking about that night at the bomb door where I saw you guys play, and I'm like, man, I that stuck with me. I still think about that set. That might have been just another night to you.

Final Thoughts & Closing

Speaker 5

Well, it was cool because we have Gradley. We don't always have Gradley.

Speaker

Oh, absolutely. What a band. What a freaking band. And you and you did Broke Down Palace, I know that. Um so all good things must come to an end. And uh yes, I know. We we could there's so much more, so much more that I'm that I you know want to know about, and uh and I'm excited to to keep watching you do your thing.

Speaker 5

Well, now I feel bad because I didn't ask you any questions about yourself, but you know that's not really what this is about. The name of the game. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker

Hey, I'm I'm gonna learn about myself through talking to you. That's how these things work.

Speaker 5

I was gonna say something about St. Louis's one true rocker. I was gonna be like, when you announced, I was gonna be like, man, it started as a joke, but it's true.

Speaker

No, it's true, folks. Thanks for joining us for the second ever episode of Meet Me and Music with St. Louis's one true rocker. And my friend. Dear friend. Thank you, Maddie, for being here.

Speaker 5

Thanks, Neil.

Speaker

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Speaker 3

Stepped in your shoes, set right in the mind. We walk in time.

Speaker 2

Walk in time The Soul River Town is quiet as can be. We floatin' like oats along the brick street. Somebody slapped me. Is this not a dream?

Speaker 4

With their heads.

Speaker 3

The rush of the water, the crack of the leaves, the smell of the smokestack, warm summer breeze. Don't wake me up now. I'm making a peace. The day is yours. The night isn't it?

Speaker 2

I feel all the stuff. They're hanging from strings. It is magic like this. The next boys are the king.

Speaker 4

The day is yours.

Speaker 3

The night is time. So let's walk in time. Walk in time. All right.