Meet Me in Music

Royce Martin — From Ragtime to Rap and the Soul of St. Louis

• Neil Salsich

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On this episode of Meet Me in Music, host Neil Salsich sits down with pianist, composer, and musical innovator Royce Martin for a conversation about St. Louis history, ragtime, jazz, hip-hop, and the creation of an entirely new musical genre he calls “Swagtime.”

Royce shares how a fascination with ragtime evolved into a deeper exploration of St. Louis culture, architecture, race, and the city’s often-overlooked musical legacy. Blending the rhythmic foundations of ragtime with bebop, rap, and modern storytelling, Royce explains how Swagtime became his vehicle for connecting past and present while creating something completely original.

The conversation explores the influence of North St. Louis, the city’s rich but complicated history, and the connections between music, place, and community. Royce discusses his upcoming album Once Upon a Swagtime, a concept project inspired by mythology, personal discovery, and the stories embedded within St. Louis itself.

Neil and Royce also dive into the evolution of jazz, the social forces that shaped ragtime and bebop, the role of artistic innovation, and why preserving cultural history is essential to imagining a better future. Along the way, they discuss classical music, architecture, storytelling, creative curiosity, and what it means to carry a musical tradition forward while reinventing it for a new generation.

More than anything, this episode is about discovery — uncovering forgotten stories, challenging old assumptions, and using music as a bridge between history and possibility.

They discuss:

  • The creation of Royce Martin's original genre, Swagtime
  • The connection between ragtime, bebop, hip-hop, and storytelling
  • St. Louis' role in the history of ragtime and jazz
  • How North St. Louis influenced Royce's music and perspective
  • The social and political history behind musical movements
  • Scott Joplin, Charlie Parker, and the evolution of jazz
  • Architecture, memory, and the cultural identity of St. Louis
  • Royces upcoming album Once Upon a Swagtime
  • Preserving tradition while embracing innovation
  • Live performance and freestyle Swagtime


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Introduction & What is Swagtime?

SPEAKER_03

All right, folks, welcome back to Meet Me in Music. I am your host, Neil Salsk. Very, very excited and honored and proud to have the Sultan of Swagtime in studio today. The originator and creator of his own cutting edge musical genre. Royce Martin.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome. What's up? It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_03

Hey, so tell us tell tell us about swag time.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, I don't know how deep you want me to go. It's pretty deep, honestly. Deep, dude. Um, I ragtime fascination. I got more and more fascinated by it, so I turned it into a kind of um fusion style where I put it with these styles that grew out of it, the ragtime tradition, like bebop and rap. And um it's all these social things connected to it too, because I think in culture it's like a reason that people forgot about ragtime, aside from the musical reasons, like people just got tired of the dun dun type of thing. And so uh it evolved, obviously, but I think there's social reasons to that too. So, anyway, rap is like the best medium for storytelling, and it's just been just super fun putting the lyrics over the striding left hand, and um yeah, as it turns out, it's like all connected, and it is all connected, right? Right, right. So I I love telling people about that because I think St. Louis could really grow if we embraced more about our history.

SPEAKER_03

I do, I do. Okay, so so many thoughts firing through my brain right now. This is such such exciting, rich discussion territory that is my my passion, is all this the old history of St. Louis music, making it come alive again. That's what you're doing with your music. That's what draws me and so many people to you when they hear you and see you perform this antiquated music. But when you hear it in person, it's not that antiquated, is it?

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, that's my that's what I when I hear it, Maple Leaf Rag, and even the entertainer something as um common or maybe overdone, you know what I mean? When you see it performed live, it's it's so much more vivid and real.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's with anything. I I'll I especially like going to uh the ragtime festival. There's one in Sedelia in the late spring. Yeah, but it's crazy just watching uh from afar, watching the players stride with the left hand all the way down the keyboard. And uh it can it can be kind of psychedelic if you just focus on it for a while. It's like hypnotic. And I don't know. I I thought I always thought that'd be a cool, um, a cool way to keep the beat like in the pop context, how the four-on-a-floor drums are keeping a beat like that's like the left hand. Yeah. Stride. And so um it all it always just connected to me, I I think.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I was I was so amazed when I when I discovered swag time, uh, because I've been keeping tabs

North St. Louis, History & Music

SPEAKER_03

on you for a minute, but a few days ago I was uh doing my research and and I realized you had this unique term, this unique territory. I love it. So, but I loved what I heard come out of your mouth, the lyrics. And I um there was a lot happening. There was a lot there. You talk about the north side. Um, and I I um, you know, are you are are you born and raised in North St. Louis?

SPEAKER_00

I'm from the county.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, okay, North County. Okay, so it's all it's all kind of north, it's all North County, North City, right? You know, like I don't know, you had some interesting things to say that I think that I know um I don't know about him the way that you do, but as St. Louisans, yeah, they're they're we we know that story.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. I mean, um, it's impossible to ignore in a way, especially uh like I I grew up in North County and super close to the city. So I went to a city school, Grandson Arts Academy shout out, and I had to drive through the north side every day to get there, and it was just like I mean, it's crumbling. It's as it's as bad as any architecture as I've ever seen. And um uh there's so much to say about that. It's a deep political history associated with that, and as it turns out, the music is even connected to that too. And it seems like there's a generations-long how I I'm reluctant to say conspiracy, but there's something uh stifling the musical and artistic progress of people in St. Louis who historically have contributed really great art. And um art really is like an antidote to all the destruction that's just on display everywhere in the north side. So uh it feels like a real shame that the city forgot about the tradition in a way. Um so the the more I figured out about both of those um social and music, music topics, the music topic became more and more interesting. Like it it it um it uh is inevitably a part of swag time. So I'm working on this, I'm working on this album now, Once Upon a Swag Time, and uh it follows like the hero's journey, mythological story, story uh structure. And um there's parts where I like I get with allies and enemies and I battle to battle the temptress and ultimately I face the dragon. And um all of that's connected to real St. Louis events that you'll you'll find out about when you check out the album.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, I cannot wait to hear it. And and where are you working on this? This album?

SPEAKER_00

Everywhere. Well, mainly in Brooklyn and in St. Louis. Cool. I'll be recording both in both cities.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_03

Wow. And you're are you traveling a lot for music? I mean, one it looks like you were in LA recently and then you're recording in New York, but you're are you still based here?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, I'm in St. Louis. Okay. I'm in St. Louis and uh everywhere else at the same time. Yeah, just like the music. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03

Wow. Does it ever feel um I don't know, does it do you ever does it ever feel lonely in the quote ragtime scene or the trad scene or whatever? Like, I don't know. Are are do you do you feel like where where are the rest of the young people or or or not? I don't know. I don't really know that scene, but all I know is that it seems there's a lot of traditional aspects to it, which can be great, by the way.

SPEAKER_00

I feel you on that. I mean, somebody's got to keep it alive. And um, a lot of the time it's people who are nostalgic about how ragtime researched in the 70s. And so uh that's a lot of the community. I am sometimes like, man, I think I think more young people could be interested in it just by uh by the athleticism of it, like what I was saying about the ragtime festival, seeing them. Absolutely, and um it uh it's got it's like evocative how it's uh beekeeping and syncop syncopated, and so all that all that is useful in this context now when everything is so fast and uh all that, but um, you know, it it really is what it is at the same time. Like I get why people wouldn't want to listen to rag it's like it's not like I'm trying to necessarily change that. I'm just interested in using the that medium of left-hand striding as a way to communicate modern emotional ideas. I love that.

SPEAKER_03

So, what about this music brought you in? I mean, if it attracted you, it can attract others, and that's what you're doing by by showing people how evocative this music is. But what what was that moment for you that pulled you in?

SPEAKER_00

The moments are constantly happening, it's like unfolding, and it really is the process that I'm explaining to you about um more realization about the connections between social issues and musical uh progression through the 20th century. And uh it really is just impossible to ignore, at least in my life. But uh the themes are themes that everybody is talking about, and so um Swagtime will hit hard.

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Architecture, Ragtime & St. Louis Identity

SPEAKER_03

It's funny you say it's impossible to ignore. It's it's impossible to ignore when you're driving through it and when you're living there. And yet, um, as a Southside resident my whole life, it's amazing how uh how we forget about it too. You know, if you're not passing through, if you're not passing through there, if you're not seeing it, it it it it is maybe maybe easier to ignore, unfortunately. Yeah, for sure than than uh for for so many people. You know, and then those moments where I cross the Del Mar Line and I go dang and and I'm reminded once again of the the reality, you know, of so much of it, which is just sometimes really is trippy when you when you and I and I um drive around or or just live, walk around South St. Louis and I see these blocks and I you you see the same bones up there in North City of the houses, and it and I see those same blocks and but it's it's like you blink and they they would look different. Like things could have turned out so differently, yeah, is all I mean.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know. I saw a quote, it's um uh or architecture is crystallized music. That's that's what it is. Architecture is crystallized music, and I thought that was so profound because uh it seems like pretty architecture, at least in my mind, I I make sounds to them. And so like I made like pieces based on like the pretty architecture I used to see while in Boston. Wow. And um uh the Saint applying that to the St. Louis context is really interesting because uh once upon a time, St. Louis had these just big storied, beautiful brick buildings, and apparently the city was known for that nationwide, maybe maybe still is known for that, you know? Right. Um and at the same time, this city was the an epicenter for ragtime, and uh and so in a way, since a lot of that stuff is forgotten about and just torn down now, a lot of it's become collectivized as a memory, old bricks and old ragtime. And so it's uh and so the sh North City in shambles feels like the forgotten ragtime. Wow. So that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, absolutely. You uh you must I'm I'm an old soul. I feel like you're an old soul because there's something I hear that so much. Well, I think it's true. Uh just hearing you talk because you're you're so drawn to the past and and sometimes the ghosts of the past and the the tragedy of the past. But I I know that same um that same fascination, that same calling with with um crumbling buildings or or what why did this happen? I mean, even even my neighborhood in South City uh is not I I try to describe it to people. It's like it's like half it's it's half North St. Louis and half south South St. Louis because it's depending on what block you're on, it's there it's uh it's it's either on the rise or it's still in ruins, you know? And I I drive those streets in my own neighborhood and I just I feel a lot of emotions sometimes too. And I go, what how did what happened? You know, how did this how did when you see these these buildings and these blocks and these neighborhoods struggling, like just I'm asking those questions all the time. And then that's multiply that times a hundred and then you're in St.

SPEAKER_00

Louis, you know what I mean? So it's crazy. It really is crazy. I mean, it's not enough words to really say, I think, for people who haven't seen it, uh uh to to accurately like paint the picture in mind. I've had friends who uh I mean lived on the south side but hadn't really been to those neighborhoods on the north, and uh just like driving through there and and they're like they just are shocked like they're in a different city or something. And it it really is something to see, but uh yeah, that's inf that's informing the music. That's informing the music.

SPEAKER_03

And that's a um a tragedy and a lot, and and I'm calling it ghosts of the past right now, but that can be such a powerful influence on your music. And I see and I and I'm hearing that you're influenced by all those things. So um let's talk about Yaquis

The Ragtime Scene & Jackie's Place

SPEAKER_03

for a second. I don't know why that's on my brain. Because I because I have uh I live near Yaquis, I walk past it all the time. That that place is special to me because that's what brought um I'll call it trad jazz, because I don't, I think that's what I think that's what I'm describing. That's what brought that music, made it real for me. That's when it when I when I s heard the gaslight squares live, unplugged, and I heard trumpets and trombones like right in my face in this in this bar and then an acoustic piano. That's just I don't know. It just it it was so jamming, you know, and I was and I I I just was intoxicated and and and so I got it, you know what I mean? And I was hungry for more, and I started going back home and and listening to the records, and all of a sudden those scratchy records came became a lot more real to me. So I've seen you there in Yaquis sitting, you're probably the youngest person in the bar. I mean, you I mean you're you're over 21 now, right? I mean okay, there you go. So, but you got usually got this blues jersey on, which I love. Um, so you know, is that is that the um I don't know, is that the meeting grounds for this for this scene? Are there other places going on in St. Louis?

SPEAKER_00

The scene really is what you think it is. Like what it probably appears to be from the outside, yeah, it likely is. So it's not very big. Uh it's not very big, but no musical scene really is. The the deeper I get in the music scene, the smaller I see it is. But the ragtime scene is niche and uh and and there's like it's not that many places to go and hear it that regularly, you know what I'm saying? But me and Ethan, who play who you likely see me play uh watching, he plays on Tuesdays nights, and um it's good to just watch him play. I'm like uh I feel like I'm collecting data out in the field basically for the album and um everything else that I need to understand about this music, basically, because I just need I need to be tapped in if I really want to speak the language. So I'm tapping in and hanging with Ethan. That's my bro. Shout out to Ethan.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, he's a great guy. He's uh I I've I've gotten a few rudimentary piano lessons from him where where I said, Ethan, teach me the what is the St. Louis sound? I like I like listening to him talk about that. Yeah, because he's um from the East Coast, but he can't I can't believe he he you know brought his life here because of the music, which I find so fascinating.

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot of there's a lot of guys like that and gals. And TJ, I heard you mention TJ. England. England.

SPEAKER_03

That's crazy, dude. Yeah, right. I think that's amazing. That's why I like Yaquis too, because there's all these fabulous musicians there, but they also um dress a certain way sometimes, sometimes, yeah. But that that inspires me. That brings me more into it. I like I like the time travel that music uh can offer me and uh probably you and many others, right? You know, like close your eyes. And if it weren't for the blues jersey that you were wearing, you know, you I I don't know. It's something so powerful to me.

SPEAKER_00

Even that though, I mean, I'm wearing a blues jersey. The team is called St. Louis Blues, and uh St. Louis Blues was just a tremendous hit once upon a time.

SPEAKER_03

Under the shadow of the Eads Ridge, yeah. The first blues song. Yeah, you know, I love all these legends. It's so exciting to talk to you because these are all just these like folk tales, you know, in a way, like W.C. Handy writing that song or Scott Joplin doing his thing in St. Louis, but you're collecting the data on this. Yeah, you're like, you're a historian as well. I feel though that talking to you, that you're on the cusp of of something maybe bigger or newer. It's true. Yeah, I can I I that's exciting. That's so exciting to know that I I can really sense that you are collecting right now and you're arranging and you're getting ready to. I don't know. Do you know what you're about to discover or is are you unsure of it?

Discovery, Creativity & Musical Curiosity

SPEAKER_03

You know, tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00

I'm I'm constantly discovering it. I mean, seriously, like I'm I'm really being for real. It's uh just appearing all the time. I love that.

SPEAKER_03

No, I feel I I'm just I I know that feeling as a musician when you're learning new stuff. And it feels like you're you know these people when you study their music. Do you feel that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, something about it feels familiar, like really familiar.

SPEAKER_03

Or you're or you're or not that maybe that not that I've known them, but that I because I've as a singer, if I'm singing, I I feel this way about Donnie Hathaway a lot when I'm studying his music. I did not know him. And I did not know the St. Louis that he came from, but because we're both singers and I'm and I'm soaking up his music so intimately over over and over and over again, there's there's part of me that feels like I know who he was. Even without listening to him talk, yeah, or reading a biography of him, or knowing his family members or anything. But you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00

I know definitely. Yeah, as a musician, there's that yeah, do you I think we all sort of know that or feel it. It it must be something like uh the same reason why we uh relate to the music in the first place or uh passively like the music because uh something about it feels relatable, something about it feels like it's uh where it needs it reaches where it needs to be. But where it needs to be sometimes is something that you don't even know. Like it's it's mysterious. Do you yeah, do you know? Or do you not know? Yeah, right. It's like only when you get there does it feel familiar, but you can't access it when you aren't there unless you got something like music to take you there, basically. And um through time, it all uh through time it's all evolving, like one thing leads to another. And so it really is all connected in um, I like to call it like ancestral group chat. Like everybody's in like a big thread. Um, and each message is basically uh what it is based on the things that happened before it. So that's that's how it all feels to me. And I mean that's how it seems like it literally must be. So I love that. No, no, this is. So it's just like a generational conversation in a way, and um, but not, you know, I'm not trying to necessarily lead with that. That's just like in a way, it's like in the backlog, but it's just useful to think about because uh music makes people go just do um do amazing things, do crazy things, do uh remember things they thought they forgot. It makes people cry. Yeah, it's uh it's just profound. So I'm trying to figure it out.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, I love that. So it's you're discovering it and identify with that feeling. You're just you're you're definitely discovering it as it unfolds in front of you, and you're you're following something. Like what you're definitely a seeker. I can I can sense that. You're seeking something. You're you know, what drives you? What um it if you're if you're figuring it out as you go, more like you've been walking the path and you're looking back at the path, making sense of it. What's but what is what is making you take that step further? Curiosity. Curiosity, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and um it's it's nothing better to do.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, there is nothing

Learning Piano & Growing Up in St. Louis

SPEAKER_03

better to do.

SPEAKER_00

There's nothing better to do.

SPEAKER_03

Wow. So you must have been curious when you saw, because you said you um only started playing when you were 14. What what was the curious moment that led you to touch the piano keys in the rest of history?

SPEAKER_00

Good question. It was just like an ecosystem, I think, that was making it more and more likely that I would do it because uh I went to an art school, but like I was in um And what was the that was the shout-out, the school you shouted out? Yeah, Grand Center Arts Academy.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, Grand Center Arts Academy in Grand Center, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that was really great, proximity-wise, just across the street from Palo Symphony Hall, down the street from the Fox and Jazz at the Beastro. And uh so much, like I ended up interning at Open Studio. I was their first intern. Wow, okay. That's pretty cool. And they were just down the street, so I would walk there after school. I was like 17, but it was uh it was a really great opportunity to go there. And before that, I was in a Riverview Gardens school district, like where I'm from. Um shout out to Riverview Gardens. Um I uh I was saying the ecosystem brought me to the piano because like my dad bought this keyboard for my sister, and um all of a sudden we had a keyboard in the house, and then my school got this grant for 13 new keyboards, and so there were more there. And at the same time, I got put in band class, even though I couldn't play an instrument. Like I I I was brought from Riverview to Grand Center basically to Go to school with my sister because my parents didn't want to drive to separate places in the morning. So and also so much was happening, and I it was it was time. So I I went to Grand Center and um I was in theater for a while. I used to I used to act, and I thought for a while that that's what I wanted to do. Maybe I'll I'll pick that back up too. Um but yeah, I hopped on piano when they put me in band class and I was in a back on mallet percussion, and it's just like the piano keys. And I would uh basically sneak off from that to uh the new keyboard lab and be playing like um just teaching yourself, just teaching just like watching YouTube videos and listening and stuff like that. And it helped that my band teacher, he really was good at piano. He used to read like sheet, he used to read sheet music, and it seemed like he was uh a rate a radio playing a CD that the the sheet music was and so that inspired me honestly. And so many other things that was the band director, yeah. And who's that? Um Mr. Melton, Jeremy Melton. Shout out, yeah, shout out to him.

SPEAKER_03

He he must be molding some young minds.

SPEAKER_00

For real, really shout out to him. I I really remember uh just how inspired I was watching him. It's a big deal, yeah. It is. Um, so yeah, and then I got and then I was playing all this stuff like RB and pop music, like stuff that I heard on TV, John Legend.

Classical Music Influences

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And then uh I I I wanted to play a lot of classical music, so I started playing that that summer.

SPEAKER_03

And I was gonna ask, I wanted to ask you about classical music, actually. Um, what what are you I don't know, let's talk a little classical music. I can I can talk a little bit about it. I've been I've been in a renaissance period myself, um, listening to more and more classical music and finally getting to the uh getting listening for years and years where I finally can start maybe hearing uh when I turn on the radio the other night. I was so proud of myself. Um because it's not a uh it's not like a three-minute song where it's over and they go, okay, that was such and such artist. You're you're listening to like a whole movement of a symphony, and they're not gonna tell and doesn't tell you who was playing. And that, and you know, after he after all this research I've been doing, I finally for the first time was able to go, that that sounds like Mozart to me, you know, just that style. I was kind of just shooting felt like I was shooting in the dark. And sure enough, at the end, when it, you know, they said that was uh I don't know what symphony it was, but you know, and it wasn't it wasn't a very obvious one. Okay. If it was if it was a a certain type, there's probably five pieces or something that yeah, when of course they're Mozart, you know, but this was just stylistically. So that was an exciting moment for me. So what what classical music is what do I need to be listening to? From and from a piano standpoint, I mean, I'm having my mind blown, dude.

SPEAKER_00

Me too, for real, man. I'd be listening to Chopin and he blows my mind for real. He blows my mind. Just how uh it's like he's taking it to different places, almost like watching a movie or drama or something like that. All in one in one piece, yeah. Yeah, right. And it's because different melodies are working and sometimes in counterpoint, but so he's in the romantic romantic era, yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So what what should I go home and listen to? Because I don't have I I listen to a lot of vinyl records, and that's where my classical music is coming from a lot. Um so I don't have any, I don't know if I have any Chopin.

SPEAKER_00

Uh it's the first thing I'll say really is that uh it's kind of like you have to find it for yourself. Like different composers represent different things for in different people's lives, it seems like. Um like some people prefer uh different sounds like impressionist music. Uh and some people hate that. Like some some people think it's just too. I heard somebody say impressionist music is like all the icing, but no cake. Uh, you know.

SPEAKER_03

Would Sati be impressionist? Yeah, Sati. Okay. Is that is that I I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm already starting, I'm starting to get my map together, you know, where I can place these people. Because his music is so that's what that's the first piano piece I ever learned on the piano, because it's actually easy enough. Um, Nasian, numbers, whatever it's very familiar. I'm sure you've heard it. Um and it's in a lot of movies.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And it was in the Queen's Gambit, actually. Uh that that chess show on Netflix that was very popular during COVID. Okay. And um anyway, it it you know, I don't know where I was going with that.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, Impressionist music, Impressionist music, it uh it lasts. I think it's like the R and B of classical music. Uh, but the the romantic stuff I think is I I'm also working on Impressionist music like Impressions of Ah, I'll someday put that album out. Cool.

SPEAKER_03

Cool.

SPEAKER_00

That uh that's a whole world that I've been into.

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Ragtime, Jazz & Bebop History

SPEAKER_03

The more I study this music, the more I it's an exciting moment. And I and when you start to hear um classical music show up in early jazz, you know, and and um listening, like that's that's why that that's how I make sense of it. Like um Jelly Roll Morton, you know, you'll listen to him, and for me it's easier all of a sudden I can really hear that that that he has classical chops, you know. And and if you fast forward though a couple years, sometimes you when jazz is more born or formed already, you don't hear as much of that classical. I don't know. I this is my own this is my own story that I'm piecing together for myself, you know, my own theory.

SPEAKER_00

I think you're right. And uh it's a part of what I'm saying about ragtime and its social um social connections. Basically, um I mean ragtime is a response to Eurocentrism. And so ragtime is closer in proximity to classical music. I mean, even on a timeline, even on the timeline, it's that way.

SPEAKER_03

It's a response. Okay, tell me about that. Is it a conscious response or is it a just a natural response of of black people in the United States making their or was it or was it more, you know, it's it's both was it more calculated?

SPEAKER_00

It's both natural and it's both natural and um decided. I mean it kind of is a protest because it's a deviation from the classical Eurocentric norm, which uh rhythmically speaking is less syncopated where syncopation is the defining characteristic of the piece. And it for that reason shocked a lot of people and a lot of people hated on it. I mean, there was just scathing articles about ragtime. That's so funny, you know? Yeah, but for different reasons. Yeah. And reasons that probably are connected the closer you look at it. But um what what I'm saying is uh that whole that whole take about um ragtime and swing music sounding closer to classical music than Bebop that came after all the jazz stuff.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's a I I think that checks out Yeah, I just it's it's like a light bulb moment for me. It's because some of the stuff I did not grow up playing the piano, you know, and I grew up listening to a lot of music that was made in from 1970 onward. So in the last 10 years of my life, I've I've I never thought I'd be listening to Scott Joplin or Jelly Roll Morton or Hank Williams or Duke Ellington. You know, I just I just it just sounded so old. And then something happened, and part of it was moments like I had at Yaquis. Were you sorry?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, that's what I mean though. That's why I think these conversations work in tandem. Uh it's it's because uh around 1940, Jazz literally decided to uh sort of abandon ragtime and the traditions that preceded the Bebop, the Bebop movement because it was seen as uh square and angular. And um because Bebop was now the king of the roost, right?

SPEAKER_03

I mean that was the thing.

SPEAKER_00

Charlie Parker was an innovator. Charlie Parker was uh next it's uh Charlie Parker was playing the notes in a way to um shock people basically and expand upon the swing language. And all of that um also had a social component, like uh Thelonious Monk has a quote uh we wanted to create a style they couldn't steal. Like they were tired of the over-commodification of rag on the swing, and people also hating on it at the same time saying that it was simple music, not like the high art Chopin or high art Beethoven. And so uh Bebop, like Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk, Butt Pal. They're playing like um it's impossible to call it non-sophisticated music. Yeah, and uh yet it's improvised and so it's got edge and it's uh it's it's chaotic but structured at the same time. And uh, and so more and more ragtime or pre-1940s jazz was pushed into obscurity.

SPEAKER_03

Because they felt like it had it was being homogenized, the music and and and come, you know, commodified and and probably by the white population or the white musical you know what I'm saying? Yeah, right. Like, wow, wow, that's so I I love um hearing you talk about that because I was um recently watching, re-watching Ken Burns jazz documentary, and there's the amazing episode where they're talking about Charlie Parker and Dizzy Glassfeet, and there's this quote between the two of them that I love where they said they actually were work, they wanted music that um the old timers couldn't play. And and I even think they were speaking about about black musicians too. I just, I just to me, I love that because it was they these were these were the words of like, you know, 21-year-old kids, because that's how young they were at the time. And I just love that punk attitude of we're gonna make music that that the older people can't play.

SPEAKER_00

And it was deeply so it was so like uh complex and sophisticated that uh it had um You can't just sit down and play it unless you're unless you're living in it, you know? Yeah, in a way. So uh yeah, that was great. Like, shout out to Bebop. I I love Bebop. And uh so my mission has been to uh put Bebop with stride. It's not like I'm the first to do that, but that's that's been uh just how I want to play it, really. Like I want the left hand to be moving and the right hand, because the right hand is like exploring all these, you know, patterns and uh is out there. And I'm trying to take it even further with McCoy Tyner and into the 60s and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03

But the left hand though is like rooted that's how the left hand is like the rag the ragtime thing. Yeah, we're gonna be right. You're saying and then the bebop and all the is is right hand. So you want to do you want to get them both together.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right. Put it in time with the left hand and then tell stories with the the right. So um it's like uh order and chaos. Yeah, yeah, absolutely chaos put together. Um, and then rapping on top of that, telling stories. So that's that's all a part of it, believe it or not, because uh it's like rappers freestyling in a circle is like uh the bebop porn section taking solos one after another, and uh it's all just communicating ideas in a structured way through music and poetry, melodic poetry.

SPEAKER_03

So wow. So what does it um feel like or mean to you to be involved in this music? I think right now you're uh probably seen as an innovator or a right at the forefront of the ragtime scene across the world, across across the country.

St. Louis, Culture & Optimism

SPEAKER_03

I mean, I would imagine, you know, I think so. So what does it mean to be passionate about this music? But also to be from St. Louis, where it is in a way, I know it's from Sedalia, but it you know, it exploded here. What is that does that mean anything to you, or is that just it means something random?

SPEAKER_00

It it means something. I mean, being from St. Louis probably is the reason why I'm in so into ragtime in the first place. So uh that at least that's what it means. And then it probably means more.

SPEAKER_03

Why do you think being from St.

SPEAKER_00

Louis proximity means that you're okay proximity? I mean, um for w when I uh look at it in my mind, it feels like the social historical things that are associated with where I'm from is as strong as my musical interest in ragtime, if not a little bit stronger. Okay. Which compels me to play ragtime. Yeah. So I don't know if I would be doing this as much if I was uh I woke up in a different context.

SPEAKER_03

Um but uh I that that social political con uh thread of your of of the music I think is exciting that you're that you're pulling both, you know, and you're gonna weave them together. I think I'm excited to hear I'm excited to hear more about that because I think you're gonna be telling people I don't know, you'll have a unique.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that is an interesting position to walk into. I'm realizing I'm walking into it to to talk about such big things for real. Um but yeah, the crown is heavy.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think they need to be talked about. Um I think I as uh St. Louis and myself, um born and raised here and deeply loves this place and um but learning always, all the time learning about the troubled well, let's put it this way the the exciting and innovative past and the troubled past as well that still echoes every single day in our city and in our streets.

SPEAKER_00

The and what should be uh always uh uh known when thinking about this stuff is that it it just truly doesn't have to be this way. Like uh it's not that things are all bad and things will be doomed to be bad forever. So uh I'm I'm really truly inspired by optimism. Yeah. And uh I I just think that it's just time to get rid of a lot of old bad ideas, really. And uh that's not as scary as some people think, but the people for for which that's scary, then uh so be it, really. So be it.

SPEAKER_03

I guess they have something to lose. Yeah. Um do you ever so so ragtime and your style of music and stride is kind of a solo piano

Playing with Bands & Modernizing Ragtime

SPEAKER_03

type deal. Do you ever play with groups?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And and what's that like?

SPEAKER_00

That's it's super fun, especially playing with TJ. Shout out to TJ. And he's a trumpet player, yeah. He's on trump trombone sometimes too.

SPEAKER_03

And banjo. Okay, that's right. Yeah, he's a I love his radio show, by the way. Um, Steamboat Shuffle Sundays at one o'clock, maybe. And shout out to 107.3 FM, where I listen to a lot of that classical music. Yeah, yeah. But on Sundays, you get to hear TJ's voice, which is a little bit of an echo of KDHX, which which is you know, has a lot of sadness around it, but it's nice. I can close my eyes and see, talk about time travel. Yeah, yeah on Sundays. I can close my eyes and pretend I'm listening to KDHX again.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Uh playing with his group is uh always fun. He plays with so much soul.

SPEAKER_03

Which group, I mean, Gaslight Squares, or is that the the orchestra that I don't know if you call it Dance Orchestra or whatever they're called?

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah, Gaslight Squares is what it is. Arcadia Orchestra is that's incredible. It is, yeah. Even with that ensemble, I sat in with them a couple Sundays ago, but um, yeah, but playing with the like the horn section is just so driving and it can be so powerful just hearing it around you as you play stride and the music gets uh more and more intense, it's like getting hotter, is what they call it. Yeah, yeah. And uh hot jazz, right? Is that what that terms came from? And so I'm like, man, so you know me, I don't want to put the 808s with it. So that's I'm I'm just I'm kind of shocked. No, never mind, I won't even say too much. I'm just shocked that people won't do it. Like people, there is a resistance I'm running into subtle to mix to mix the traditional jazz sounds with modern sounds like 808s. Yeah. Um and not just in a pop context, but somebody who's truly in a jazz tradition to really use the ensembles that characterize those periods to um actively integrate, um actively integrate modern technology.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh and uh perhaps those bands exist, but not in the ragtime context.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well,

The Future of Swagtime

SPEAKER_03

that's why I get the sense that you're on the cusp of something. I really do. I can feel it, I can feel it, and I can hear it, and I can sense it, and it's very exciting. Um, Royce, I want to thank you for joining me today. It's been super, super inspiring. And thank you for having me. I'm so excited to to get to know you more and and and work with you and just watch watch everything and listen for everything that you do, and you make St. Louis very proud. I can tell you that much.

SPEAKER_00

A lot of people are are feeling invigorated by what you're doing. So thank you for having me, man. I I appreciate hearing that. And uh we all in this together.

SPEAKER_03

So absolutely. All right, thank you, Royce. Let's do some music, huh? All right, all right, peace.

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SPEAKER_03

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unknown

Play me something. One more time.

SPEAKER_02

But it ain't nobody's business what I do. No no, and if I go to church on Sunday, go all the way downtown on Monday, but it ain't nobody's business what I do. There ain't nothing I can do, and nothing I can say that folks won't criticize me for, but I'll do it anyway. And if my friends ain't got no money, I say go on and take all of mine, honey, but it ain't nobody's business what I do.

Live Performance

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I put my heart in my intentions, but get lost the image. That's why I seems I'm keeping distant. Just give me a minute. This looks so sick, it got me pissed at how quick I'm forgetting. I'm really forward thinking, sitting around reminiscing. Knew if I follow my interest, it would turn into riches. But it wasn't about the money, it wasn't about the women. I swear I'm not gonna get that back and start acting different. But listen, if I did for dead, it ain't nobody business. Am I trippin', am I gifted? I'm always on the mission. Feel like I'm a suspicious trying to be present, but I might miss it. I'm not critical on the mission, but I'm really coming off the head. I might miss this, but I'm really making it up as I go like we already know. Yeah, St. Louis going up. We're the true Saint Louis going up, yeah.

unknown

Come on.

SPEAKER_02

To jump into that Mississippi Ocean, you know it ain't, no, it ain't, no it ain't, no, it ain't, no, it ain't, no it ain't nobody's business. What I do.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks, man.