5 | Three Law Students Walk into the Plaintiffs’ Bar

On today’s episode, Boston College 2L Marissa Lambert sits down with Angie Pati and Jonathan Koehler, law students at NYU and Rutgers. Angie and Jonathan discuss the ideals that brought them to law school, and how those values are leading them to careers on the plaintiff side. They detail the networking strategies that helped them find jobs, and Jonathan shares his secret for how to study for law school while you’re asleep.

Suggestions for topics? Questions for our guests? Email the show at Spencer@CauseOfActionPodcast.com.

Learn more about plaintiffs’ law from the National Plaintiffs’ Law Association. Additional details on the NPLA’s Linktree.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

A Walk-Up Melodia Kelly and Schoenberger podcast. I'm Spencer Polkey, and this is Cause of Action. A show about how to build a thriving legal career and practice law that can change the world. I had a few goals when I started thinking about this podcast. One was that I wanted to create a resource for law students, something truly practical, a way to introduce students to plaintiff's side practice, and to show them how, if you work as a plaintiff's attorney, you can have a real impact in the world and make a good living doing it. To do that, I wanted to have conversations with practicing plaintiff's attorneys and get inspired by their stories, their cases, and especially their journeys. So that was the number one goal. But I also imagined this podcast as a space where we could represent the voices of law students themselves, a place where students could weigh in on the values and ideals that brought them to law school in the first place, and the challenges they're facing on their paths to finding that dream job. I was hoping this show could be a forum for them to share their questions and what they've learned. This episode is about that second goal. So I thought let's switch it up a little bit. And on that note, I'm joined by someone who at this point should be familiar to anyone who's listened to our first episodes. Marissa Lambert. How's it going?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Hey, Spencer.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Fancy talking to you here in the intro.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, I know. I love debriefing with you after these interviews. So this is a it's a fun changeup.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

All right, for our listeners who have no idea what we're joking about, Marissa is a 2-L at Boston College Law, and normally we have a short conversation at the end of the episode after we've had a chance to listen to our guest interview.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yes, we call that the debrief.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Indeed, the debrief. But this is a different day and a different episode of Cause of Action. So tell me, what are we doing today?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

So I had the chance to sit down and talk with two law students, Angie Patty and Jonathan Kohler, and I learned so much from them. Angie is at NYU, Jonathan's at Ruckers, and they're both planning to go to plaintiffs' firms after they graduate. Angie is actually currently the finance director at the NPLA, the National Plaintiff's Law Association. And they both have these fascinating journeys finding their way to law school and really powerful stories about why this is the right path for them.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

So you're saying Angie and Jonathan, it sounds like they both had careers before going to law school.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Yes, absolutely, but I won't spoil it here. I will say I was honestly just humbled and kind of in awe when we were talking. It was inspiring to hear how they came to law school with these strong ideals and they've really held on to them. Like those convictions are at, you know, the center of these decisions they've been making about their summer jobs and where they want to work and really the kind of careers that they're trying to build.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

All right, I'm excited about it already. Can't wait to listen. With that said, I'm handing over the proverbial microphone. Shall we roll the interview?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Let's do it. Angie, Patty, and Jonathan Kohler, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you both. I'm so excited to get into this conversation. And we're all law students here. I don't know if either of you have done a podcast, kind of crazy for us to all be in this podcast. How are you both feeling?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

It's my first podcast. So I'm feeling kind of famous, which is pretty exciting. And now that I have all this gear, I'm thinking, like, should I be telling my thoughts to the world? So stay tuned.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

I think you, yeah. It's powerful. What about you, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_03 3:50

This is my uh second. My buddy runs uh a podcast up by Angie called uh the hot dog hour. And uh it's pretty funny as a comedian. I know this is uh this is very similar to it, and he had me on the show once.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, so we are talking, it's mid-April. We all have finals coming up. How are you both feeling about that?

SPEAKER_03 4:13

I've never had a bad day in my life. Um, and I'm going to keep saying that until May 21st when I graduate.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

What about you, Angie? Yeah, I'm not feeling as positive as Jonathan is, I wish. Maybe I should start channeling that. Um, but yeah, I'm excited for the summer. So I feel like it's like, okay, well, we gotta get the finals done, gotta get whatever we need to get done. And I'm in New York, and so it's been such a cold, cold winter. Um, so I'm really, really just excited to be in the sun. And there's there's a few things standing in the way of that. So that's how I'm feeling.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

And that is a great segue to my next question. But for the audience, can you tell us where you're both in law school?

SPEAKER_00 4:48

So I'm A2L at NYU, and yeah, it's really awesome to be in law school in New York, and I'm also from the Northeast, proud Jersey girl. So it's really nice to also be close to my community as well.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

I'm uh over at the at Angie's little, like little cousin school, uh Ruckers Law School down in Camden, New Jersey, and I live over in Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

And Jonathan, you are actually in the part-time program and you are working full-time.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Yeah, it's uh it's been about four years, so almost half a decade goes by quick. Uh, and I work uh, to your point, three jobs. I work uh full-time in a subrogation department and for two solo practitioners.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

That's the plaintiff's law hustle right there. All right, well, I think that all points to why we wanted to have you on the show and why Spencer and I are so excited to hear from you both. You both have these incredible stories and both had very rich lives before coming to law school. You both worked. Angie, could you start telling me a little bit about what you did prior to law school?

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah, I was super fortunate to, I think, have a really lovely, wonderful life before 1L. And I think law school has been such an honor and a joy. Um, but before law school, I did a few different things. Um, I graduated from college in 2018 from Syracuse University, Go Orange, and I went abroad. Well, actually, I worked at a at a firm in Jersey for as a just a healthcare paralegal for a small amount of time, but then I went and completed a fellowship abroad in South Africa for a year. Loved my time there. I did a little bit of doing some research in the effects of apartheid and post-apartheid community development. And I came back and flew essentially right into the pandemic. So I was applying for jobs, I had you know final round interviews, um, and I landed really in March of 2020. So I ended up being really fortunate to be at home with my family in Jersey and be everyone be safe, but of course, did not have a job for a little bit, was just kind of wrapping up research. And I finally got a role at a direct services nonprofit in Washington, D.C. So I moved to DC and I worked as an investigator for a year. And then after that, kind of made this hard pivot into leading specifically nonprofit fundraising and advocacy strategy for large impact-lit organizations and small uh nonprofit organizations. So I really found this kind of interesting intersection between political tech and impact work. And through that, I started reading more and more complaints because, you know, I was trying to figure out, say, we were working with, you know, a specific organization that worked in maybe reproductive justice or within gun violence prevention. A lot of the complaints that I was reading so that I could really craft this narrative, whether it was fundraising or whether it was speaking to supporters, the complaints had these other attorneys on them, their co-counsel. Um, and so I started poking around more and I realized that these are plaintiff side law firms. And I had no idea what that was. And I had, you know, in the back of mine, kind of maybe thought that I wanted to go to law school, but I didn't know what for. Um, the more though that I realized that the plaintiff's side world existed and the agency that these law firms had and that they could really do some really powerful work kind of once I learned that they existed and they did this type of work, there was no turning back for me. So I came to law school, kind of blew up my life in Washington, DC, that I loved and hopefully I'll be back one day. But I really came kind of dead set on going into plaintiff's side litigation, specifically and hopefully one day within civil rights. So it was a it was a windy path, but I think you end up getting there. And and there's something really lovely about going to law school and feeling like you know what you're gonna go for, because for so many people they're trying to figure it out, and everyone is to a certain extent, but I came wanting to do plaintiff's side work.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Right. Well, that's so interesting because most everyone I know that's gone into plaintiff's law has like accidentally stumbled back into it. Um, you know, they started in big law, they started in defense, and so it's really I'm really intrigued to hear from the perspective of student who came in knowing that they wanted to do a plaintiff's law and wasn't thrown onto the path of, you know, maybe big law, maybe government. You clearly worked on a lot of public policy. What were some of the lessons you took away about the importance of addressing policy?

SPEAKER_00 9:03

I think what I realized is that social change is not going to happen in isolation. So, you know, lawyers are, of course, incredibly powerful in this narrative, but so are our doctors. So are just members of the community, so are the people that are plaintiffs who are being affected by this work. And so I think the importance of policy is really the importance of like having partnerships across industries, either within, you know, co-council and within, you know, the lawyers and between lawyers, but then also just, you know, how can we collaborate with this other profession or this person? Um, so I think really I think the the importance of public policy is just the reminder that a lot of things do need to change and there's a lot of progress to be made. And it can't just happen with attorneys. And honestly, the the most rich change does happen when you collaborate across communities in kind of using a really diverse definition of what communities are.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Right. Yeah, everyone's strengths can come in. All right, Jonathan, your turn. First things first, you have a kid.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Yeah, I do. I have Serena, she's seven.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

How are you possibly doing law school while working, not only full-time, but three jobs and raising a daughter?

SPEAKER_03 10:10

You uh, I mean, for I I think any part-time student knows uh it takes a lot of sacrifice, and so something gives. It's impossible to balance all of them. So the best way to do it is staying up late, working hard. Uh, when you get tired, you just have to push through it and you have to be intentional and make the time, and you have to be intentional with your time. I I I just did a new student orientation over at Thomas R. Klein School of Law, where my wife goes maybe about a month ago. And that was the first thing I told the parents is you you can't pirate time and you have to be very protective of that time.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

You told me about this crazy thing you do to learn while you're sleeping, and it it's you know, you you mentioned using your time wisely. Can can you tell us a little bit about your hack?

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Yeah, certainly. So there is a uh podcast out there on Spotify called Law School Toolbox Podcast. They also have the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast, and that is uh kind of my lifeblood for things because I'm always moving. So if I'm you know driving somewhere, I'll put on this podcast. When I'm laying in bed, I'll put on this podcast. And I think that's why my wife ended up going to law school because she started after me. I think the nightly podcasts of falling asleep to the rules against perpetuities really enticed her to want to pursue a career in trust and estates law. So uh that's the hack, would recommend, and it's uh it's played out incredibly well for me.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah, it sounds like it did. And that's funny because I've been coming across a lot of people who started law school and then maybe two years after their siblings, their partners, you know, people that they know and are in their orbit are deciding to go to law school. I guess because it's intriguing. I think when I heard about law school, I felt like, oh my gosh, I that sounds like med school to me, which is so far off from my skill set. But yeah, I guess it is kind of enticing. And rule of perpetuity is property, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:12

It is property, but it has a uh a layover in trusts to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Okay, okay, yes, not not my strong suit. And Jonathan, your story is so interesting because you actually didn't originally plan to go into law, did you?

SPEAKER_03 12:25

No, I did not. I wanted to be uh actually I wanted to be a doctor. My daughter was born right out of college, so 2018. And my my undergrad's in public health, so I would have had to do a a post-bachelorate, a core science study, and then for what is it, four years of med school, the residency, so on and so forth. And you know, I my career I've really tried to spend around building people up and helping people. That's why I like these types of professions. And I found that medicine was going to be too long and hard without a long-term income, and that turned me to law. And I said, well, you know, the the next best place I can help someone is in law. And as I've progressed down this path, I've learned it's probably even a better place to help someone more than medicine because of, you know, private equity taking over hospitals, regulatory hijacking by uh professional organizations, uh writing their own regulations, even though they're self-policing, it can be a little deferential to them. But uh that's opening up a different can of worms.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

No, that's interesting. The the upstream issues that law can tackle. And Jonathan, what made you want to go to law school?

SPEAKER_03 13:38

So uh before law school, I worked in mostly mental health, behavioral health care, nonprofits. I would work with patients directly, then I moved into corporate governance and compliance of these nonprofits. And in that capacity, I would do uh, you know, Medicaid fraud billing uh investigations, I would do uh rape investigations, I would do corporate misfeasance and malfeasance uh type investigations. And one thing I learned in compliance is you're there to try and do the right thing and to help people. And sometimes that cuts against the bottom line. And uh what was supposed to be a corporate watchdog can kind of put a target on your own back as a compliance professional. And I said, you know, if I really want to help people and I really want to develop a career, I I need to go to law school, and uh, and that's where I discovered plaintiffs' work.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

So that leads into my next question. And Angie, you've already touched on this a bit, but I'm curious to hear what both of your experiences were at your respective schools when you came into law school and the narrative around what path you were, you know, quote unquote supposed to take. Because at BC, it's a very big law-centered school. All of our schools are in close proximity to New York, which is, you know, obviously a huge hub for big law. And so I think why a lot of students are attracted to BC is because, you know, they know they can come here, live in Boston, but that New York is just, you know, a hop away and that there are a lot of recruiters coming into Boston from big law firms. And so, yeah, I'm curious to know, you know, whether that was from other students or friends you were making, or faculty, or the career services office. What was the message, especially for Angie, because you knew you wanted to do a plaintiff's law and you weren't, you know, impacted by it, but I'm sure you probably still heard and knew. What were your perceptions of the school's environment in respect to what path to take?

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Yeah. So I had a little bit of an interesting and I think unique experience because I just I just transferred to NYU. So I started my law school experience at Emory in Georgia, and I had a great time at Emory. I made some really close friends who hopefully I, you know, stay in my life for a long, long time. And and I've also really enjoyed NYU. I mean, for me, the you know, we can we can discuss transferring at length, but for me the decision came down to where do I want to be and what do I want to practice. But it also came down to like where can I get the best plaintiff side opportunities. And I was fortunate to be able to transfer to a school that I think has helped me connect a little bit more with plaintiff side opportunities, specifically in the geographic area that I want to practice in. Although I loved Atlanta, all my family's up here. And you know, you can't really shake the jersey out of someone, you really can't. Yeah, you know, it's like we but when I'm driving around Georgia, people are like, she's not from here. But um, it's a really great place and I really enjoyed it, but still, you know, you want to be realistic about where you want to practice. So to answer your question, when I entered Emery, I was I was really surprised. I guess I thought because I knew that I wanted to do plaintiff side work, that I wouldn't be swayed by by big law, by like, you know, interesting. I I really thought I wouldn't. I was like, you know, I I know what I want to do, you know, I might potentially want a clerk one day, and I definitely want to pursue plaintiff side litigation, but these are all, you know, potential opportunities, and none of them for me personally involved big law. Even then, the pressure that big law and the the environment that big law has on campus was so surprising to me. And I think that's true across law schools. It was both at Emory and at a school like NYU that does really pride itself on public interest work. I don't think it's specific to the schools, and I don't think it's anything about those specific schools necessarily. I think it is more what do law students come here to do is to get a job after they've taken a huge financial and time commitment. And big law is immediately there. So I ended up not participating in any schools OCIs because I had missed NYUs, because I had transferred and in Emery's, there were no plaintiff side firms. And I knew that if I had an offer for a big law job, it would be really hard for me to turn down. And I knew that's not what I wanted to do. So I think my experience has been still not knowing like what am I gonna do after after law school, but really having to trust yourself and feeling confident that it'll all work out, which is hard, especially when you have a lot of the obligations that even that even Jonathan mentioned. So yeah, so that that's kind of what I would say is it I thought it was surprising. I thought I wouldn't be swayed, but it took a lot for me not to not to even apply to big law firms.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Yeah, it's hard to stay the course. What about you, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_03 18:24

So ruckers, uh, you know, a few types of attorneys come out of Ruckers, mostly defenders, prosecutors, and then every reason why I like Rutgers are, you know, solo practitioners and more plaintiff side attorneys. Uh we are the proud uh uh uh alma mater of Top Dog Law, James Helm, who he's all over the United States. And in the night program, when it comes to those big law summers, those big law internships, they don't really look at evening students. And they don't look at evening students A, because those students can't quit their full-time jobs the summer, but B, it doesn't, as Angie pointed out, you know, follow that rigid structure. So I've found that you have to be intentional, you have to reach out, you have to go to CLEs, you have to meet people, link with other students, and sometimes it's a little uh uncomfortable because I mean your peers will say, Why do you want to do that? Or is that gonna pay enough money? And you know, when you have a seven-year-old and a wife or a spouse and a family, those are things you have to take into consideration. Um are you are you willing to bet on yourself? But I can say from everyone I've ever spoken with about this decision, they all say that the best bet you can make is on yourself.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Wow, I would say Marissa, like I feel like what Jonathan just said too about your peers being like, why would you want to do that? I feel like that comes up a lot. And you know, it's hard when you stray away from that.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Right. There are so many competing interests at the same time. And I think the three of us are very secure in our decision to go into plaintiff's law because I've been reflecting on how that was not always the case for me. And I know I still have some friends who are going into plaintiff's law and maybe still have this deep down feeling of it would have been easier if I went to big law. Maybe I should have, maybe I still will. I don't think they're quite internally settled, and I think it is because of that prestige. Um, and I'm kind of wondering if you both had a defining moment of when you realize, no, this is my path, and I feel good about this because I remember last summer and I was at the US attorney's office, and maybe my fifth day in, they take us to a SWAT raid in like the middle of the night, and I'm sitting in the back of this FBI guy's truck, and I'm just thinking, oh my gosh, this is the most excited I've ever been. This is the coolest thing I've ever done. You could not like pay me enough to feel this way. Who gets to do this? You know, and I think that's what really motivates me in plaintiff's law. I'm gonna wake up and think, oh my gosh, I have the opportunity to go, you know, fight for people who have gone through abuse or injury or whatever it's been, and that's priceless.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

That's such a good point. I think for me, I remember a specific instance where I was sitting in one of my favorite coffee shops in Atlanta and reading torts, and then I had more and more reading. You know, it's one L. You're in the thick of it. But I was sitting there and I was like, wow, I like really had a great life in DC. I walked 10,000 plus steps a day. I had a beautiful walk to work. I lived in my dream city, I had my a dream job, but it still wasn't good enough because it wasn't doing what I actually wanted to do, which is make a difference. And plaintiff's side work allows you to do that. Um, and I think I needed to come back to that. continue to come back to that during especially one L, which is like incredibly challenging, I think. Um, and there is also no doubt that we come out of here and we'll come out and be in the world with a very specific skill set to be able to help.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yeah. So we've talked about prestige. And I think there's an interesting cultural conversation happening at law schools about plaintiff's law. We often hear the words, you know, ambulance chasing. And I know that when I got to law school, I had no idea what plaintiff's law was and more so just thought of the billboards and commercials. And now that I know what it is, it's you know it's frustrating to see that it's so misunderstood, but also to see that even I misunderstood it. It's this whole world in and of itself where you can do anything. If you're interested in you know medicine, environment, science, regulatory work, you really can get involved in in any way. And you know Angie, you were talking about policy and social justice issues. There's so many routes that you can take in plaintiff's law. How has that informed both of you and your choice to go into this line of work?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah I I just think that that's a great point, Marissa. And that's that's kind of what makes me so excited about plaintiff side work um generally is to your point this this summer I'll be at a firm that's doing a little bit of consumer protection and some securities work. And they have some really interesting cases. You know they're they're involved in some of the social the social media lawsuits that we're seeing currently they really are protecting communities or protecting consumers and it's it's an incredibly important thing. But I mean to your point on all of those things I think that the reason the plaintiff side work is so interesting to me is A, at my core and at a something that I would love to do is do civil rights work. Like I'd love to do fight against discrimination. And plaintiff side firms are at the forefront of fighting discrimination in employment. They are at the forefront of sexual assault and abuse cases they work with whistleblowers to really you know keep our government in check with consumer protection, with securities work, antitrust work. Some of the plaintiff side firms like Goop the Wessler have some of the highest Supreme Court win rates. You know the appellate litigation is is amazing. And so I think the thing that excites me is I really feel very excited and certain that hopefully one day I can work within civil rights, within a race and gender and sex discrimination context. But also I can do good work across so many things. Like this summer I'm so excited to learn about consumer protection and how people are using that, how lawyers are using that to challenge corporate fraud and to challenge bad corporate actors. And so I think the thing that just excites me is every single day I learn about a different plaintiff's side firm, a different plaintiff side attorney and and cases that are really like pushing towards change in a lot of different areas. So I I just really urge any student who's interested in doing it to think about like what what interests you because I guarantee you you're going to find a plaintiff's side firm and in plaintiff side work within that.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

So that's that's what I keep going back to is like there's so much variety in that you know the law is man-made I mean it's not a science it it sits on top of industries and I think as you correctly pointed out the plaintiff's chamber the plaintiff's bar is what regulates these industries. When I worked for healthcare providers in that corporate compliance position you had a state agency right regulations for the provider but the provider and their carrier were sponsoring the bills for the legislation. So you have this regulatory hijack mechanism and the only place left that can you know safeguard communities I see it every day when when I'm driving to school there's a giant billboard and it's John Morgan and it's his fist like this and he's saying protecting America and you know some people would call that corny but the the reality is it's true. The reason the blender doesn't activate when you take the lid off anymore is because there was a plaintiff's lawyer that said you can't do that. That's inherently dangerous. And what you have not to get on the soapbox but what you have is an unregulated unfettered capitalism that's squeezing pennies out of people putting people at risk for the sake of a bottom line and you just fundamentally I'm not okay with that which is why I'm really interested in this work.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

And Angie you had mentioned skill development.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Yeah something I'm something I'm really excited about is not only these these issue areas that Jonathan mentioned but um what I'm really excited about and what I was so excited about, I'm working at a firm called Kessler Topaz this summer and they are a wonderful wonderful firm um that they do a little bit of consumer protection and securities and MA work. But when I was interviewing with them and when I was chatting with them, you know, they were talking about how associates were able to take depositions within a couple years and how you know they if the associate really showed themselves and took agency on a case, they would be given substantial responsibility to really develop skills as a litigator. And for me in any role that I want to go into I want to come out with the most skills that I can possibly get. I want to be the best attorney I can be because that's how that's how we win on this side of the V. So I think because plaintiff side firms are inherently a lot of them not all of them but inherently are smaller that allows when they do hire young attorneys that allows them to really delve into like what it means to be an attorney and to really get a a lot of skills quickly. So I think that's the most exciting part is that like you're gonna get to be an actual lawyer and do lawyer things, which is recently why I went to law school.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

You mentioned Kessler Topaz and I've just become familiar with them. They they came to BC recently but they're really leading the recruiting way in plaintiff's law because I know that they they essentially do OCI. They're like the only plaintiff's firm that really does. And so I think that is incredible and I hope that other plaintiffs firms can look at Kessler Topaz as an example of how you can partake in the OCI process as a plaintiff's firm. I have a friend from BC who's who's going there met a few attorneys there but yeah they just seem like they're really doing everything right I think that your point is is very true and I think the National Plaintiff's law association has done a really wonderful job.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

NPLA has done a really wonderful job of helping connect attorneys to students across the country across all different types of law schools but we do need the demand from plaintiff side law firms to help actually hire those students Angie I'm glad you mentioned NPLA because they're such an incredible resource they've helped me so much with with networking can you touch on for any students out there who are you know maybe they're one else interested in getting involved in plaintiff's law can you kind of both talk through what your process was how you networked how you got to know people and how you got to know the industry. Yeah I I'm really curious to hear Jonathan's thoughts just because he's he's so good at this and I feel like he's always sending out emails and and thoughts like that. But I I'll say for NPLA specifically if and if I were if I were 1-0, right, this is something I would absolutely 100% do is connect with the National Plaintiffs Law Association NPLA. It's a completely student run organization that is dedicated to building the future of the plaintiff's bar. So they help give resources to the local PLAs that are established at law schools and you know right now the organization is in the process of helping give them just like a little bit of startup money even they have a job board where you know they really encourage law firms, plaintiff side law firms to post their opportunities and stay in close contact with them. They have a map of the plaintiff side law firms like even just knowing what are plaintiffside law firms and what what all of that what what exists. So I would say if I were to do it again and something that I'm so glad that I did that has been instrumental in my journey of building plaintiff side connections has been joining NPLA as a member and now sitting on their board. And also if you don't have a plaintiff's law association at your law school when you get there, the first thing you should do if this is work that interests you is start one. Connect with the National Plaintiff's Law Association, they'll help you. But that's the way that you get connected to attorneys in your area because everyone wants to come and speak to students. So I'll pause there but I'd I'd really love to hear what Jonathan especially with kind of the emails that he sends and all of that but my first piece of advice and something that I did that was instrumental to my journey was just getting connected with NPLA.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

So I think I uh so I have three thoughts. First the NPLA is so incredibly helpful for a student who wants to become a plaintiff's attorney because of that job board. I think the kids say cooked the whoever made this map and job board really cooked. You can find any firm that does plaintiff's work across the country and I've used it I've used it a lot and I've sent out probably 30, 40 to 50 cold emails which does lead to my second point. You know the theme I I've really tried to instill here is intentionality. You have to be intentional if you want to get into plaintiffs work. And one thing at least in the Philadelphia market is those cold emails they they can they can really work because not everyone wants to do plaintiffs work. So when you demonstrate an interest and you have a real interest and you're able to communicate that and you send that cold email to a firm you know sometimes they'll say hey we just don't have space and you know that happens. But a lot of firms are just kind of surprised someone would even reach out and the market is there. You just have to pursue the market. It's not big law coming to you you have to go to them which feels a little different and requires some more initiative. My third point is if someone's you know really on the fence about plaintiffs work, a good place to start is funny enough, it's called insurance subrogation. So I work for a law firm called Wednesdays you know mid-sized firm do everything med mal defense transactions IP but they have a really effective insurance subrogation part. And so all that is is you know the your your home burns down the insurance company pays the benefits now you are the lawyer for the insurance company suing the party responsible for burning down the house for the policy benefits. So I've learned a a lot about mechanical engineering and metallurgy but also about plaintiff's work how to work up a case. You know I've learned that 80% of my case that's starting before we file the complaint we're doing the fact investigation retaining the evidence retaining engineers examining the evidence developing theories of liability that's plaintiff's work. That's driving the bus. And you can learn that really well in a subrogation firm and I think it's a really good place that uh students should not foreclose especially if they're looking to work somewhere part-time a lot of subrogation firms will take on a law clerk for 20 hours a week I'd also say um you know you hear a lot in law school about how like you're you're building your network a lot of professors I've had have asked us to like look around and say these are your future colleagues.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

That is very true and it's even more true within the plaintiff side work because it's small, especially if you're focused on a specific issue area. And so something I would do is right now and especially if you're starting out you might be asking a lot of favors of maybe two L's, maybe three L's, maybe young associates at firms as you're sending out those emails, LinkedIn messages that Jonathan's saying. And something I would say is eventually something will hit. I really do believe it. Something will work out for you. And when it does please pay it forward to whoever is reaching out to you. I will never turn down any future potential law student, anyone who wants to learn about plaintiff side work, I will always talk to them about it because A, they could totally well be you know a very powerful plaintiff side litigator one day and I would love that for them. And also because if you actually want this work to be as powerful as it can be and for there to be these avenues that you can go out onto a law school campus and know where to go for plaintiff side work. That means we all have to work together to make this an actual avenue that people can follow and a path that people can go down. And then the last thing I'll say is about National Plaintiff's Law Association not only do they have the job board, not only do they have the firm map, but also they have great opportunities for you to go and apply to go to conferences, especially if you've shown interest in plaintiff side work. That's how Jonathan and I met we both attended the Impact Fund conference in San Francisco and it was awesome. We not only met each other which I think has been awesome and hopefully will be a lifelong friendship and also you know future colleagues one day but we also met a bunch of attorneys and we were able to talk to them and it's so impressive to attorneys that you took the initiative during law school when it's already so hard to spend your weekend flying out to learn more about this. So I mean I I I think it's hard, right? It's not easy to say yeah we know you have so much reading but now you also have to send all these emails and go to all these events and plan these events and bring this but I think it'll be worth it for hopefully a career that's very fulfilling. Those are things that we've done I know that that have worked out but something I'd say is also like organically follow the things that you're interested in. You don't have to manufacture feign interests like for me I know what I'm interested in. So I follow the firms and some firms that work beyond that. And I've had interviews where I've brought up things about firms and the work that they've done just because I follow them on LinkedIn or I follow them on Instagram because I'm genuinely interested in what they're doing and they're doing cool work. And they find it so impressive but it's just something that you know because you're actually interested. So I think they really just delve into the work and find something that's interesting to you and and just learn more about it, be curious. And people love that. And the last thing I'll do is I would I would really prioritize doing that while you're in law school. There's nothing more powerful than a dotedu email. Even if you're just doing a cold outreach that dotedu email is so powerful and you only have a few years to use it. So I would definitely use it.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Well both of you this has been so much fun normally Spencer will ask the guest and I'm going to step in here but if you could go back in time to law school and talk to your former self, what would you say about the journey? And obviously we are still in law school now. So instead I'm gonna ask you if you could go back in time and talk to yourself right before you started 1L, what would you say?

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Have fun. Like I don't know for me it's it's been four years and Marissa you're right. It's not that hard to get on a conference. But I'll I'll tell you when Angie sent me out to San Francisco that's probably the most fun I've had in like I don't know like a year and a half. It was a lot of fun because you meet people that are that share the same interests as you and that's harder than you think maybe I don't know maybe I'm getting older I'm 31 may but that that just feels harder than it should be. So it's a lot of fun to you know make friends in this space and like that that's valuable. So you know go in have fun make friends it's not that serious you will do fine work hard. I'm not saying be lax at the days but you have to have fun because if you don't have fun you're gonna go crazy.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yeah that's such good context like I remember when I started law school I was like everyone's like this is you know everyone talks about how difficult one what is and it and it was but at first I especially after transitioning from working I was like this is all I do all I get to do all day is read about like some crazy stuff that's happening. Like I was reading torts cases and I was like this is fascinating. I was like and then they did what and they did this felt like gossip it really felt like gossip. No I honestly think great podcast idea maybe we should all link up is reframing torts and other cases just like gossip because like what even like some of the CivPro cases I'm like wait what do you mean they had lifelong tickets to the railroads and then the railroads took it away I they would be customer service would be hearing from me like what's going on I would say number one please like remember that like first of all you you chose to do this and it's a huge privilege and so you should have fun with it because it's really like not that serious at the end of the day. But take it seriously and you make sure that you get your your investment out of it. But you know have the perspective that like what you're doing is kind of just sitting and reading some interesting stuff. And second thing I would say and something that I you know my friends and I would sometimes laugh about is like remember who you are which sounds very like Mufasa and Lion King but the law school experience can be really challenging and it's a really competitive environment sometimes. And remember that like we are only stronger if we lift the people around us up and just r remember that like first of all this will pass and the law school curve is not forever and etc etc but also remember like these are people and and you should you know if you can send someone your notes if they had a rough day do that. If you can you know text someone if maybe they had a rough cold call which frankly like I never remember if anyone has a rough cold call. But the all of these things like that can that can really change someone else's day just remember like it's really important to to be kind and it's it's really important now more than ever.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

There's a surprising amount of kindness in law school I will say that's such a such a good point Angie so uh I think you know this.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

So right before we met my mom died and you know if it wasn't for that community like NPLA our friendship uh the people I met in San Francisco my friends at Rutgers uh my my wife and my daughter I I don't know how I would have pulled through that you you gotta have your community with you thank you for sharing that Jonathan that's really powerful and I think speaks to the bigger picture of why we're doing this what kind of life we want to live what kind of people we want to be surrounded by.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

I've felt that in this past hour with both of you thank you so much for you know taking the time out of your day to come chat with me. Like I said you are both a a wealth of knowledge you have so much experience and I feel really grateful that me and you know the many other students listening just get to learn from you both.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Thanks so much Marissa this was so great. I'm sending love and good vibes to any one, two L three L early associate a future lawyer who is looking to do this work. We can use you in it. You're very important and you know if you can find my information online reach out to me. I'm always happy to help and also connect with National Plaintiffs I'm sure they would be so excited to talk with you too but it's such a privilege to be here with both of you.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

It's uh it's an honor to be here uh just happy to be here and if anyone needs anything uh Jonathan Kohler on LinkedIn if you follow me I'll send you the uh the link to my Dropbox with all my one L outlines and you can have them hold forever and ever.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

That's that's enticing. Well thank you so much it's been a pleasure and hopefully I get to meet you both in person too definitely thanks to Marissa for taking the reins today and to our guests Angie Patty and Jonathan Kohler.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

If you have any suggestions for topics you want to hear covered or if you have any questions that you want to hear our guests talk about on air send us an email. The address is Spencer at cause of actionpodcast dot com. And if you like what you're hearing subscribe to Cause of action wherever you get your podcasts. And hey leave us a review and rating maybe share it with a friend. It means a lot and it helps us continue to make the show. Cause of action is hosted by me Spencer Palke joined by Marissa Lambert. Peter Arcuni is our senior producer and our executive producer is Gabe Ribbon for Walk Up Melodia Kelly and Schoenberger