6 | When "We the People" Hire a Plaintiffs' Firm

Here’s something people don’t often mention: As a plaintiffs’ attorney, you can work side by side with government litigators, taking on some of the most important issues in the country. Case in point, today’s guest: June Pineda Hoidal. June is a managing partner of Zimmerman Reed. The Minneapolis-based firm collaborates with public entities, and has fought back against the opioid epidemic, major polluters, and the Trump administration, just to name a few. June unpacks what it’s like to bring government cases from within a private firm. Later, Spencer sits down with 2L Marissa Lambert for a check-in on finals and the upcoming summer.

Suggestions for topics? Questions for our guests? Email the show at Spencer@CauseOfActionPodcast.com.

Learn more about plaintiffs’ law from the National Plaintiffs’ Law Association. Additional details on the NPLA’s Linktree.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

A Walk-Up Melodia Kelly and Schoenberger podcast. I'm Spencer Palkey, and this is Cause of Action. A show about how to build a thriving legal career and practice law that can change the world. Now, so far on the show, we've talked a lot about plaintiff's attorneys who represent ordinary citizens, against typically large corporations. We've heard about cases involving workers who've had their wages stolen, residents whose drinking water has been polluted by chemical companies, people who've been hurt by dangerous products, and we've talked with plaintiff's attorneys who've represented these people and worked to get them justice. But there's something people often don't mention about plaintiff's side practice. As a plaintiff's attorney, you're not limited to representing private clients. You can also represent governmental agencies, for example, states, school districts, health departments, because hey, they need lawyers too. Working side by side with states attorneys general, you can take on some of the biggest, most important cases in the country and have a lasting impact on public policy, all while working in a private law firm. It's something that today's guest, June Panada Hoydle, is very familiar with. June is a managing partner of Zimmerman Reed, a plaintiff's firm based out of Minneapolis. They have a wide-ranging practice and work on everything from consumer protection to environmental law. But the firm also has a thriving practice working with public entities. June serves as the chair of that practice. So I wanted to sit down with her and talk about her work. In our conversation, we're going to unpack what it's like to bring government cases but do it within a private law firm. June has been involved in some really exciting work, taking on the opioid epidemic, vaping companies, and the current administration's immigration enforcement policies, just to name a few. So, we're going to dive into those cases and chat about why plaintiffs' firms are the right fit if you're the kind of law student who's hooked on reading the news. Later, I'll be joined by Boston College 2L Marissa Lambert for a look at the end of the semester and Marissa's summer plans. That's all coming up. June Panada Hoytle, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Hi, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Of course. Now, I want to talk to you about something because plaintiffs in cases come in many forms, obviously including people and groups of people, but also including entities like state and local governments. And it's on behalf of those entities that you, June, have done some incredible work, and we've got a lot to talk about in that regard. But I wanted to set the stage with a recent case that we really all know about. Just this last February, the entire world was watching Minneapolis and St. Paul. That was only a few months ago. But can you set the stage for us a little bit about what was happening there?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Yeah, it was a really rough beginning to the year for all Minnesotans. Operation Metro Surge was happening in our state, and we saw a lot of immigration enforcement activity happening all over our city. A lot of just horrible things happening that really was very difficult for everybody in the whole community.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

And I mean, it was broad, it was deep, it was it was terrible. It was precedent setting in a whole bunch of horrible ways, one of which was the focus on school districts and schools, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

There was an immigration enforcement activity happening in and around our schools, and the effect of that were kids not going to school. So we saw enrollment dropping dramatically at a lot of uh schools, especially in the metro area. Uh I mean, we're not just talking, you know, a few students not attending school. There were some schools where attendance dropped 40%, probably more than that. Um so a lot of kids who were choosing to stay home because they were afraid to go to school. So that was very difficult to witness.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

And it certainly can be looked at statistically, as as you're pointing out in part, but it was visceral too, right? I mean, uh you were mentioning a story of some of their tactics.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Aaron Ross Powell It was uh visceral. You know, we had heard uh there were stories of ice agents driving by schools blaring ice ice baby from their vehicles. And there's no reason for that. Um the only reason for it was to terrorize people and students who were in the area. So it was really a difficult thing uh for everybody in the community.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Now, I'm out here in California. I was watching it on the news and taking it in that way. I think probably all of us were, and that feels very passive, you know, just seeing this happen. But you and your firm were able to do something active in this horrible time. Tell us about it.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yeah, uh we decided to represent two school districts in Minnesota, so two uh public school districts in Minnesota, as well as an organization called Education Minnesota, which is the teachers union in the state, sue the administration to stop immigration enforcement activity from happening in schools. We just had a hearing. Uh I think it went well. We'll see what happens, but we expect a decision on that actually fairly soon.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

What did it feel like to be able to take an active stand, you know, you and your firm in the face of this, frankly, obviously tyrannical government? Well, how did it feel?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

It felt great in the sense of despite all of the bad things happening around us, uh, we felt like we were doing something. It rallied the firm. Everybody wanted to help out on this case. When we filed the complaint, you know, I went around the office asking to see which paralegal uh was available to help with a late filing, and everybody wanted to pitch in. So that was great to see. We had like more than half the firm working on this case. Everybody wanted to do something, whether it was like researching some footnote that was going to be in the complaint, doing site checks on the complaint, you know, doing all of the research that was necessary to put this complaint together. Everybody wanted to work on it. And I think it was because there were so many bad things happening. It felt like something that we could contribute, using our skills and our resources, something that we can contribute to the community and something active that we were doing to address what was happening.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

And I just love that your firm, a plaintiff's firm, uh, was really among many across the country who have litigated a whole host of cases. And it's just nice that your firm's in a position to take this stand and in this case to do it on behalf of school districts. So I just have to ask you, I don't practice in that area. I I, you know, I handle personal injury and wrongful death claims. So how how do you describe when somebody says, What is your work? What is this work of representing governments on the plaintiff's side? How do you unpack it in a nutshell?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah, I have my one-liner, my elevator pitch, right, about what I do, but then I have to explain it. So I always tell people uh I represent public entities when they're plaintiffs in complex litigation. Of course, that means nothing to like the average person, right? So then I have to explain it. So maybe it's not such a good one-liner. I have to come up with something else. But really, what it is is when it's complex litigation, usually consumer protection cases, right? And we represent public entities when they want to do those cases. And what do I mean by public entities? Usually it's uh states. So we've represented the state of Mississippi, we've represented the state of Indiana, the state of Vermont, state of New Mexico, and we work with their state attorney general's offices when we do those cases. We also represent cities and municipalities if they have a consumer protection case or an environmental case, antitrust case, those kinds of complex cases. Uh so when they when they are prosecuting something and they need outside legal help, that's what we do.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

So you're saying basically, largely it's in the consumer protection space. And instead of representing a person or a group of people, you're directly, you're representing them through their government, basically. You're representing their government on behalf of them.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yes, that's exactly right. And uh every time I explain to people what we do and who we represent, I have so much pride about that practice area and that our firm gets to do it. It's such a privilege to work with state AGs across the country on these important cases and cases that where they are trying to vindicate the rights of the people in their state.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Got it. So on this side of the V, our side of the V, it is a government uh on behalf of its people. Who who's on the other side? Who who are you suing?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah, usually um in the opioids cases, I think a lot of people know about the opioids litigation. There were a lot of states involved in that. So in that case, it was manufacturers, distributors of opioids. In our antitrust cases, it's companies that did alleged price fixing. A recent case that we had for the state of Minnesota, which we took to trial actually, sued Joule, the e-cigarette manufacturer, for marketing to kids. So, yeah, it's it's usually a big corporate defendant who is on the other side. And that's one thing too that I love about our practice area. And I think in general, plaintiff's side cases, whether it's class actions or something else, usually the defendant is a big corporate defendant with a lot of resources, and then they hire the best and brightest defense lawyers in the country. And you've got to go toe-to-toe with those people. When I was an associate, I used to always look up the bios of my opposing counsel, and I would get nervous when I saw that they clerked for Scalia or you know, they had some other big federal clerkship and went to Harvard or Yale or some other you know great school that everybody's heard of. Uh it used to be very interesting and also nerve-wracking for me, but eventually, you know, you learn that uh you can go toe-to-toe with the best and brightest in the country. And a lot of times I like to think we've got the facts on our side, which is the most important thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah, especially when you're right.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah, exactly. But I I like that challenge too, and I think that's uh a fun aspect of what we do.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

As I said at the beginning, you know, uh there's a lot of different types of plaintiffs. And for a lot of people, when they think of a plaintiff's firm, it brings to mind representing private individuals. How does a private firm like yours bring a case on behalf of a governmental agency?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

You know, it's a practice area that's pretty unique in the sense that uh, you know, there's plaintiffs' firms around the country who do similar work as we do, but there's actually few who s have this practice area, which is what we call public client. And honestly, it's kind of a practice area that we built around a single case. And I can talk a little bit more about that case, but we had success in that case, and then all of a sudden we were on other attorney general offices radar, and then when they needed help on some matter where they, you know, were struggling either whether it's resources or expertise to do a case, a particular case that they wanted to do, they would reach out to us to see if we could help. So that's really how we built this practice. And so, yeah, we work with state attorney generals uh across the country uh on cases when they are plaintiffs in complex litigation.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

I'm curious, how do you get the cases? I mean, are you are you developing relationships with these AGs or is it the work that speaks for itself and they reach out? I mean, how did how does an AG end up calling you on the phone?

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Yeah, I think all of the above. It's the work speaks for itself, so I can talk a little bit more about that. And then also we do have uh over the years have cultivated relationships with AGs across across the country. But normally what the process is attorney generals will will issue a request for proposal, an RFP, right? And then um plaintiffs' firms who have this practice area will put together a response to the RFP. There's an interview process, and then they select uh who they want to work with, I guess. Uh so we've been lucky enough in the past to be able to be selected by AG offices to do particular cases.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I gotta ask you, RFP. I'm I'm used to a request for production, but that's not what this is.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Yeah, request for proposal. So, for example, um, I'll take a real life example actually. What happened? We represented the state of Minnesota when they sued Jewell, the e-cigarette manufacturer, uh, for marketing to kids. And they issued an RFP, a request for proposal when they wanted to do that case. Uh, and a bunch of firms responded, and your response usually you know uh consists of well, here's the general strategy we would take, here's our experience, here's our resume, that kind of thing. Um, the attorney general's office interviewed us, and uh then we were selected. We were fortunate enough to be selected. And so usually that's how the process goes for getting this kind of work.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Let me ask an ignorant question. I mean, AG's offices, those are big law firms, you know. Why don't why aren't they doing them themselves? Why don't they litigate on their own behalf?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

A lot of times, like for example, some of the antitrust cases we've done for states, they take a long time and they take a lot of resources. And while you're correct that these are big, essentially law firms that work on behalf of the state, right? A lot of their work is defending state agencies. They have all sorts of work that they have to do. And they might, their consumer protection department might not have the resources to do a particular case. And by resources I mean both like manpower, but also a lot of these cases are heavy on costs, whether it's experts or some of something else. And that's a consideration that they have to take into account when they decide whether or not to pursue a particular case. And so sometimes it just makes better sense for them to hire it out. And in every case that we've done, they're very involved. I mean, they're both our client and our co-counsel, so they're very involved throughout the whole litigation, which is another great aspect of doing that kind of work.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

How does it compare to litigation that is done that would be more standard to me on behalf of an individual or a group? Are you is your firm advancing the costs, you know, or are you are uh is it a is it a hybrid fee model, you know, where it's or is it all contingency? Is it some out how how does it work? Or does it maybe it's all of the above? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Usually it's contingency. Um all of the cases we've done on behalf of state AGs have been uh on on a contingency basis like any other case, kind of like a class action, right, uh that we would do in the uh firms will advance the costs.

unknown 15:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Uh and then uh there's some sort of strange political bedfellows, right? I know you your your firm has done work on behalf of a lot of different states, and there are different political views in different states. How does how does the the politics affect or not affect you know who gets hired?

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah, um I haven't seen it affect any, at least with the cases I've been involved in. I mean, uh we represented the state of Indiana in the opioids litigation and on the other side of the political spectrum than some of our other clients, and really hasn't affected because I uh at the heart of it, uh all of these cases, state AGs are pursuing them because it's important to the people in their state. And there's something that happened, corporate misconduct or what have you, and they are trying to find redress or some, you know, address that misconduct that has harmed people in their state. And at the bottom, that's what these cases are about. So I haven't seen, you know, political views of any particular state AG impact the kind of cases that we do.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Now it's quite interesting that if you're you're litigating on behalf of the government, then you get to, you're representing them, you uh get to use some of the powers they have, right? I assume you get uh like subpoena power before litigation, that kind of thing. Is that is that what happens or yeah, uh exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

In in some cases, and it's always uh under the direction of the Attorney General's office. Uh in some cases, they will want to issue what's called a CID, a civil investigative demand. And that's essentially trying to get discovery before the case starts. And so you're requesting documents from the defendant and they have to produce those documents, and then you uh so it's a little bit different than like a normal class action that you would bring. I mean, you you wouldn't have that ability to do that in a normal consumer class action.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Aaron Powell Nor in any of my personal injury cases. It'd be quite nice though.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

It'd be great though, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Send off a pre uh pre-litigation subpoena to an auto manufacturer. Sounds like a great idea. Yeah, love to do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

So oftentimes what you see, like if you pick up a complaint that a state AG has filed, a lot of them are very detailed, like very detailed footnotes. Uh and if they're redacted, that's a sure sign that there was a CID process before that case was filed because they uh received some documents. So, yeah, that's the reason why a lot of the complaints that tend to get filed are very detailed.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Okay, it's it's just it's so interesting to me that you can marshal the power of the government, but do it while you're at a private firm. You know, I I wanted to talk to you about a particular piece of litigation that your firm was involved in a few years ago, this LCD price fixing litigation. I'm wondering if you can walk us through that and give us a sense of what the allegations are.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, that probably is my favorite case that I ever worked on because I was an associate when I worked on the case, and it just sort of opened my eyes to this kind of work. And uh again, you know, we're a law firm in Minnesota, and I was a brand new associate at my firm, and I was like, you guys represent the state of Mississippi?

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Like, that's random. Exactly. How did that get to be? And you're representing them in this big um antitrust case? Like what? Uh so that was all very exciting and interesting to me as an associate. So it's my favorite case that I've ever worked on. Uh, but what it was about, we represented the state of Mississippi in an antitrust case against LCD manufacturers, so like flat screens, right? Uh, for colluding on prices uh for the these flat screens that then had the impact of all of us paying more than we otherwise normally would for products that contain those flat screens. So your cell phones, your iPads, laptops, those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Let me just ask you a quick question. I we I think we have some sense of what antitrust litigation is, but like what what is it to like a lay person? Like what's it mean?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Yeah, it it means to me, it means you're paying prices for products higher than they otherwise would in that market if antitrust activity wasn't there. And what I mean by that, like in this particular case, and this is all in the public filings, like in the complaints that have been filed, literally, like the manufacturers of the LCDs gathered together in a room to discuss pricing and like agree on the pricing. Uh so that's basically what happened in that case, or that that's what was alleged.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

The literal back room. They were in the back room together. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

I mean, I started off on the defense side before I came over to the plaintiff side, and a lot of times you would read about these these things that uh, you know, and complaints that were alleged, and I would always think, like, why what company would do that? Like, why would it that doesn't even seem like something that would happen. But over the years I've learned, oh, it happens. Like a lot of these things that you hear about that is just like, why would anybody do that actually, you know, happened.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

I am definitely gonna ask you about how you got to the plaintiff's side for sure. I'm quite fascinated by that. But I'm not gonna let you off this topic first. So you got these L C D manufacturers, they've all gotten to a back room and they've decided this will be the price, and we will all therefore pay more for it. Your firm files antitrust litigation on behalf of uh the state of Mississippi, and what comes of it? I mean, it actually had national implications for all of us.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

It did. So we litigated that case for a long time. And what happened was we filed the case in state court in Mississippi, and then defendants did not want to litigate that case in state court. They thought it should be litigated in federal court. We took the opposite view. Eventually, that issue about where should this case be litigated, what is the proper forum, made it to the Fifth Circuit, and the Fifth Circuit ruled against us and said it belonged in federal court. And so we decided to petition the US Supreme Court to review that Fifth Circuit decision. And at the time, like I'm an associate, and I'm thinking to myself, I am involved in this case that's going up to the U.S. Supreme Court. We represent the state of Mississippi on this issue that has such a huge impact on every state AG in the country about where they can bring their enforcement actions. Essentially, what it boiled down to was state AG enforcement actions, should they be litigated in state or federal court? That was the core issue. Very few cases get granted review by the Supreme Court. We were able to get them to bite, which was awesome in and of itself. But not only that, we got a 9-0 decision out of it in our favor. And I would um check SCOTUS blog every single day to see if a decision came out in our case. And the day it came out, I like, I was on my way into work. I was driving, had just gotten my coffee, I pulled over and I like could barely speak. And I called the partner I was working with, and I'm like, we won! 9-0, we won. It was so exciting. But I mean, obviously, I did not argue the case before the US Supreme Court. We co-counseled with a lawyer who, you know, that is their sole focus is arguing before the Supreme Court. Um, but we we did the briefing, we helped with uh mooting the argument, and that whole process was fascinating. But to sit there as an associate watching the Supreme Court justices discuss issues that I nerded about as an associate for you know several years was just surreal. So it was such a great opportunity. And then when we finally won, we got sent back to Chancery Court in Mississippi, where we had initially filed the case. And all of a sudden we're all looking at each other like, okay, now we actually have to litigate the case instead of arguing over this jurisdictional issue. Uh so that was that was fun too.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Well, it's it's a big win for a lot of reasons. I mean, substantively, when you get to successfully prosecute an antitrust violation, you're putting all companies on notice. You know, you're saying you're not so protecting these backrooms where you're working out these deals. So that helps us all as consumers. But the procedural issue seems, it may seem narrow, but it's so important because where this case proceeded, I assume, that's greatly affected by the judge, the jurors that you're going to have, which law is going to be applied. All of these things are going to be affected. And for a state like Mississippi to get to vindicate its own view of what public policy should be for whether it's consumers should get ripped off, like it matters that it gets to have it heard in state court, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Yeah, I couldn't have said it better. I mean, it it matters a whole lot where a case gets litigated, which is why defendants fought so hard to have it be litigated somewhere else. Because they knew that that forum was more favorable to them. And prior to that case, and prior to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in that case, it was very routine for defendants to remove cases that were filed by AGs to federal court. And as a result of this case, that practice changed.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Well, this Californian appreciates that it's easier for California to vindicate its rights in its own courts by virtue of that work. Now, you mentioned uh a bit ago, you teased it, that you started at a defense firm, and I'm just so curious how you wind up at Zimmerman Reed, a plaintiff's firm. So can you kind of just walk us through how you started off at a defense firm and then and then end up at a at a plaintiff's firm?

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah. Uh I I always told people it was a happy accident. Um I started off at a defense firm because that's all I knew. That's what what they talked about in law school. Uh I went through OCI on-campus interviews, and it was all defense firms. Uh and listen, like I had no complaints being on the defense side. I thought it was great. I was learning a ton. I was doing well. Uh so I started off at a firm called Fulbright and Jaworski, it's now Norton Rose. I was in their DC office. I was I worked there for a couple of years, and then I moved back to Minneapolis where I worked at another defense firm. And then for personal reasons decided to take some time off of work. And so I guess I didn't really think it through. I just gave my notice, and then thinking I would have no problem finding another job. Like I was uh very naive about it in hindsight now. And then the economy just uh tanked, and nobody was hiring. And then, you know, I ended up having my son, starting a family. So then what was gonna be like a six-month hiatus from working ended up being four years. Um, and to kind of just fast forward, eventually I got back working by clerking for uh the chief federal magistrate judge here in the district of Minnesota to fill out a clerkship because his clerk had left. And then when it came time for me to look for a job, Zimmerman Reed was the only firm that was hiring because there were no firms, law firms hiring at the time. I had no idea what kind of work they did. And I, you know, I went to their website, never heard of them. I went to their website and I saw a classmate of mine was working there, so I called her up. I was lucky enough to have that connection. So uh, you know, she flagged my resume and the rest, I was gonna say the rest is history, but it really wasn't. The managing partner at the time, I didn't get an offer on the spot. I bugged her every two weeks to see what was up and if they were gonna make a decision. Uh eventually, I think she probably wanted me to stop bugging her and gave me the job. Um and then when I started working on the plaintiff side, like everything made sense. And again, I had no complaints about the defense side. I enjoyed that work. I learned a ton and I thought I was good at it. But on the plaintiff side, I was uh I had a a moment of, oh, this is what this is what I thought being a lawyer would be like.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

You know, it's so funny. I love the hustle, you know, the follow-up every two weeks, you know. Yeah. I now in your position, you're helping run the firm. How valuable is it to you when you see a student follow up with you, show their interest? You know, I view that as kind of a bit of a filter. Like some students do it, and boy, that tells me they're gonna be a good plaintiff's lawyer because they're gonna hustle, and some don't. And it it sort of tells you.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

You gotta do it because plaintiff's firms operate in a different way than defense firms and big defense firms that that. You know, a lot of plaintiffs' firms, it's not like we have dedicated HR departments. Right, exactly. In that there's like a firm process that everybody follows when it comes to interviewing people. So you really gotta follow up. And the volume of cases that plaintiff's firms handle is so much larger than defense firms, at least from what I saw from my own experience, that the reminders and like the the follow-up are important just to make sure you keep on that person's radar.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

You know, that is one thing that uh lawyers and trial lawyers are famous for is being overworked. But I'm curious, you know, how how you've managed to have a successful career while also having a successful life at home. I mean, I I struggle with that myself, and I like to ask people how they do it. How do you pull it off?

SPEAKER_01 29:16

I have a great husband who is really uh, you know, 50-50 partnership. Uh, he is a lawyer as well. So uh I think that helps because he we both understand the demands of our jobs, but when he was younger, it definitely was a struggle. There were many times where my my son's daycare was closed or he was sick or whatever. I'd bring him into work and buy him a Lego set and he'd sit in the corner of my office building Legos. So he everybody at my firm knows him because he grew up around the office.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

There's a kind of flexibility I find in the work on the plaintiff's side. It's not regimented in the same sort of way. I mean, there's not the generally the sort of strict, you know, uh, how many hours are you billing? Because that's how the only way we get paid. And there's benefits to, you know, sort of crafting your own path, and there's a little bit more flexibility I find to do that at a plaintiff's firm. I don't know if it's been your experience as well. Do you get a little bit more control over what's happening in your life? Because, hey, you're you're kind of running your show.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

It's the number one thing I love about what we do. It's just the feeling of having more control over the trajectory of my career. I always tell people, like, you know, uh on the defense side, we've got a lot of Fortune 500 companies, for example, in Minnesota. Getting general mills or target as a client is not in the cards for me. I just don't have those connections. I didn't grow up with those connections. Uh, it's hard for me to make those connections. But on the plaintiff side, I just feel like your success is limited by how hard you want to work, how creative you can be. So, in that sense, I just felt like I had a lot more control over it. It's one of the reasons why I love what I do.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Yeah. Preach. I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Now, we talked a little bit about um, you know, law students and and their paths and and how folks get to to where they want to be a meaningful career. Now you've got the great benefit of having done work on both sides of the V and at different firms uh on the defense side. So for law students who are trying to figure it all out, what kind of advice would you give them as they try to decide what kind of work is the best fit given that you've seen a lot more of the landscape than most?

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Yeah. You know, practice area is one thing, but really when it comes down to it, it's the people you work with, right? Even if it's you end up being on the defense side, people like struggle, oh, what practice area am I gonna get into? And if you talk to a lot of lawyers, the practice area that they're into, it's because they fell into it because that was what the people they were working with that they liked, that they had good relationships with did. And so all of a sudden you're doing data breach cases because that's those that was somebody's practice area who you work with. I would say it's the same thing, probably on the plaintiff side. I mean, why do I represent public entities? Well, when I was an associate, the partner who I worked with, that was her practice area, and I was lucky enough to sort of inherit it. And I enjoyed the work too, on top of it. So that's always a plus. But really, it I think it comes down to the people you work with, and I've heard that story a lot from both defense and plaintiff side.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

It's funny, you say fell into it, and that's that that's definitely the phrase. You know, just hearing a little bit about your career and the stops at different firms, and then also stopping for a period of time and then coming back and now having such a great career at Zimmerman Reed. I'm wondering, you know, it took some courage each time to make a move, right? And yeah, you could say you fell into it, but also you decided to, you know, to try something else out as well, right? I mean, how how much did your, you know, willingness to to take that chance play into it?

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Yeah, you know, as I as I talk to my classmates from law school and where they're at, the pattern I always see in like the people who are currently the happiest, their careers they zigged and they zagged. And I think I'm that's okay to do, and I think there's a huge benefit to doing that. Um, it does take a lot of courage to switch gears. At the same time, it also keeps things interesting. Some at some point things get boring and stale. It's time to try something new. But yeah, all of the different experiences to I think help in really valuing the current experience that you have and giving you perspective. Like, I think I would not appreciate plaintiff side work so much had I not done defense side work.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

So as we wrap up, I just got to say I've loved getting to hear your story and what your path is to doing this really important, meaningful work. Uh, before we let you go, though, we've got a final question we ask all of our guests. And that's if you could go back in time to law school and talk to yourself in law school, what would you tell yourself about the journey ahead?

SPEAKER_01 34:06

I would say actually, I'd go back to what I just said, which is it's okay to zig and zag. I think if I was interviewing myself as a law school student, I would never have pictured myself as a plaintiff's lawyer. Uh again, probably because I didn't know that the kind of complex plaintiff side litigation work was available. But I thought, you know, I started off on the defense side and I, like I said, I was happy there. At the same time, I didn't have anything to compare it to. But I think I would have thought that that's I would stay in the same place or just sort of maybe switch to a different firm but always be doing defense side work. Never thought that I would take a break from work. Never thought that I would do a clerkship. But all of those experiences I think uh make you a better lawyer and also make you appreciate the job that you eventually find yourself doing and enjoying.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Well, June, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining and chatting with us.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

That was my conversation with Zimmerman Reed managing partner June Panada Hoidel. And now I'm joined by Marissa Lambert. Marissa, I want to hear, of course, your thoughts on uh the work that June does. But we haven't spoken since last week's episode, and I'm dying to ask, you crushed it uh as the host, but how'd it feel?

SPEAKER_00 35:40

It was both a blast and like juggling a bunch of things up in the air at one time. So it definitely made me appreciate you know your skill set and what you bring to this podcast every week because you're listening but thinking about what's coming next, you know?

SPEAKER_02 35:58

It it takes a little doing, but man, you were awesome at it. And nice job drawing out the experiences of Angie and Jonathan, which were really interesting. And I like how they're you know, their thoughts were similar, but then you know different in various ways, and where they came from was similar but also different, and their plans are kind of in that same vein. Right. What was it like for you to get to unpack their stories? What'd that feel like, you know, as a person?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Well, I felt like I had a lot to learn from both of them. They've both had, you know, much more work experience than I had in between college and law school, and they also worked in fields adjacent to law. Uh, you know, Angie, especially with her public policy work. And so they have a lot of information that I don't have, and they've had a lot of experiences that I haven't had. It's so apparent they have a l a lot to contribute and you know, a lot of thoughts, a lot of really meaningful things to contribute.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, and you know, there's so many spectrums that we're all on in various ways. The one I'm focused on here is, you know, how certain are we, you know, when we're a law student about what our future is? And there can be everything from I have no idea to like I know it's going to be X or Y or Z. And, you know, fortunately, you can be anywhere on that spectrum and get to places that you're really happy at where they happen to find themselves is very certain. You know, they're they know exactly what plaintiff's firm they're going to. Um I don't know. I was just sort of hopeful that that, you know, that that gave some inspiration to folks, but also like, you know, reminder, you don't have to know for sure immediately. You know, there's lots of ways to an outcome that's gonna make you happy, whether it's a plaintiff's side or otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Yeah, and I think Angie was the first person I've spoken to who's in plaintiff's law who knew they were going to go there. So I think Angie is an anomaly in that way, but you know, thank goodness. I I I love that she really knew about it before coming to law school and stayed with it. And that hopefully there are, you know, if Angie's out there, there are many of other law students that have come in with that same passion and and keep it with them.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

It'd be really interesting to know this data probably can't exist or we couldn't be deciphered. But I wouldn't be surprised if you were to, you know, pull all law students now versus all law students, say 20 years ago, 30 years ago, you know, even 10 years ago, how sure they were that they wanted to go, for example, for just looking at the plaintiff's side, how sure they were they wanted to get to plaintiff's side. I bet you anything that people were less certain of their paths in the past as compared to now, but where at the same time, students now are also sort of more concerned about that path, you know, like this. I I really want to go to the plaintiff's side, but I'm worried about it. But I bet you so many more students now know so much more about the plaintiff's side and have a sense of how to get there. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Aaron Powell Yes. And what I've come to see in law school in my own experience is we all come in thinking, well, I'm really interested in the environment. So, you know, my whole reason in going to law school, you know, you want to have a reason, right? You want to have like a kind of a plan. And I think we all come in with these plans, but most of the time our plan is just the one area that we know the most about. You know, it's not because we have decided against other areas, it's we actually haven't really explored them. And so I think what happens for most students is once you actually are in law school and you're taking all these classes and you see all of the different routes, you're no longer as, you know, definitive as you were. And you also see that I don't have to pick a specialty, I don't have to be certain right now. You know, I have three years to kind of figure this out, more or less, with OCI nowadays. But yeah, it's just it's really funny how you go in needing a narrative, but then actually being there is what destroys the narrative because there's so many different things to do.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

I love how you put that. You go in needing a narrative. I I was just last night at a trial competition banquet uh at Berkeley and talking to a student who was very certain that they were gonna go to be a public defender, but had lately learned about some of the really interesting work that district attorneys do on behalf of the survivors of sexual assault. And it kind of shook them up. They're like, wait a minute, this is, I feel that seems really righteous to me as well. And I was like, that's great. That's I mean, that's the point. You should be sort of thinking about this and wrestling with it. And now's the time, you know?

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's exactly why I'm so glad like these plaintiff laws associations and schools are getting off the ground because you will learn about the DA at your law school. You will learn about the US attorney's office. It's not guaranteed you're gonna learn about plaintiff's law, but with these PLAs, we have a better chance of that and why I'm here. I BC's PLA started my first year that I was here.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

So I, you know, barely made the cough. And I was talking to one of the students who founded it last night about, you know, what is this gonna look like five years down the line, and she'll be a practicing attorney, and she'll be, you know, giving money and resources back to BC's PLA. So there is a whole uphill trajectory for PLAs.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Aaron Powell And I just gotta put a code on that. I could not agree more. I've I've said that so many times when speaking to students that right now you're a student, yes, but you won't be for that long. You're gonna be a lawyer, and and many of you will be plaintiff's lawyers. Remember when you're on the other side to look back at what it was like as a plaintiff, it was hard to get resources, hard to get lawyers to come talk on campus for the PLA, hard to raise money, hard to get good job opportunities, or you know, relatively hard. Well, hey, once you're on the other side, don't forget and make it easier, you know, pay it back, you know. So couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Absolutely. So, Spencer, in listening to this episode, I think this exposed me to a whole new area of what you can do in plaintiff's law, which is also something we discussed with Angie and Jonathan. But I, you know, in seeing the news about Minneapolis, did not make any connections with plaintiff's firms. I assumed it was all government. And so, you know, to hear June talking about this entire different world that her firm's been involved in, it was a light bulb in my head. Like, oh wait, I'm gonna have the opportunity to do that too. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

I couldn't agree more. It's it's so dynamic, the practice, right? Because I'll be honest with you, I've been doing this for a few years, almost 20. And it didn't occur to me until I don't know, 10 years ago, something like that, that when public entities litigate affirmatively, they are very often doing it through plaintiff's firms. Like that didn't like dawn on me. And I think it may be in part because there's more of it now, which it just comes back to the dynamism. You know, the practice is what it is now, but it's changing. It's it is what people make it out to be, you know?

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Yeah, no, absolutely. And seeing that plaintiff's law is a a friend of all these different cities and and states that are, you know, trying to protect their citizens, it it feels like a very powerful position to kind of be in. And I and I know you expressed that to June about how gratifying that must be to not just watch, but to be in a position to do something about it. And so I was listening feeling very grateful for for June and for the work of Zimmerman Reed.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Yeah, I completely agree. And so many other folks who do that work and in so many forms. I mean, there's so many ways that public entities on behalf of their people, their citizens, their, you know, the people they represent need help. And it's so cool that this type of work that we do, plaintiff's work, is there to help.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Well, you are doing finals right now. Uh I know it's a little bit of a loaded question, but how are we feeling?

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Um not great, but I will say every time finals come around, me and everyone I know say not great. And I think that, you know, the first time or even the second time finals came around, I thought, oh man, when am I gonna get the hang of this? And now it's kind of relieving that the answer is you don't. You just get through it every year, uh, or every semester rather. But I kind of feel like I have more time than I have had in previous semesters, but I think that's kind of a bad thing because I have about nine days until my Chrome Pro exam. And I'm like, Like nine days. That's all.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

Do whatever I want.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Yeah. And like in the snap of my fingers, it's gonna be tomorrow. You know? And so every day I have to tell myself, like, Marissa, you will be dying to get this time back a week from now and wishing you had spent it differently. Please do yourself a favor and spend it differently.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Fair point. But I think your mindset is exactly right. I mean, it's a little bit like any challenge, right? If you are like, I got this, I'm totally, I mean, it's good to have confidence about it, but also if you like have a nonchalance, like, nah, I'm all good. Well, you know, it's good to be sort of testing your knowledge, testing your abilities, testing your skills. So that's how I felt for all of my finals. And I still feel that way about all the challenges of my life. I, you know, worried, but ready, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Yeah. And I mean it's nine days, but it's nine days to basically learn a 900-page book. You know, those are not commensurate with each other.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

So how many finals do you have?

SPEAKER_00 44:56

I have one take-home exam. I have, I'm actually in two library research classes, which has maybe been the most helpful classes I've taken in law school because that's what I'm going to be doing for, you know, majority of the day at my job. So those are kind of project-based, and then I have two actual, you know, sit-down finals.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Well, Marissa, I've got the faith. I think you're gonna do great. That much I know. So uh excited for you to get to the other side though, and and get to your summer.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yes, thank I can't believe I'm gonna be the three L.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

I know, it's wild. Yeah. The time it flies.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

It does.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

And then once you are done with finals, tell us what's happened in the summer.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

So I'm headed to LA soon to a plaintiff's firm called Panache Rabbi Puti, which I know you are familiar with. I have heard nothing but glowing reviews from every attorney in California. And I really have no idea what I'm gonna be doing there yet. You know, they handle all different types of cases, and I'm, you know, so curious to know what I'm gonna be thrown on or if I'm gonna have any say in that, you know. So I really don't know what to expect, but I know it's going to be above and beyond, you know, this will be my actual real first foray into plaintiff's law.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

So And it is an absolutely great firm. We have many friends there and greatly respect those folks. You know, it's probably a little bit like any great plaintiff's firm where you get to make some of the adventure yourself, and that's my little two cents. Like lean into it. And if there's opportunities that exist, let them know you want to do it. And odds are you get to do some cool things.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

I mean, you're my resident expert, so you might be getting some texts or calls or emails from me asking you for those details.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

I look forward to it. Well, excited for you, Marsa.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Well, that's a wrap, folks. A quick programming note the life of an attorney is a busy one, as is the life of a law student. That's all to say. We'll be taking a break for a little bit, but we'll be returning soon with brand new episodes of Cause of Action. As always, if you have any suggestions for topics you want to hear covered, or if you have any questions that you want to hear our guests talk about on air, send us an email. The address is Spencer at cause of actionpodcast.com. And if you like what you've heard so far, subscribe to Cause of Action wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, leave us a review and a rating, share it with a friend. It means a lot and helps us continue to make the show. Cause of Action is hosted by me, Spencer Palke, joined by Marissa Lambert. Thanks to today's guest, June Pineda Hoidel. Peter Arcuni is our senior producer, and our executive producer is Gabe Riven for Walk Up Melodia, Kelly and Schoenberger.