Matthew Maynard | Gold, Nikki Beach and Riding House Café

Some people run great rooms.
Others go on to build them.

Matthew Maynard has done both.

From Riding House Café — one of the busiest openings of its time — to global scale at Nikki Beach, and now leading expansion at Gold Restaurants, his career has been built on opening, running and growing hospitality businesses under pressure.

This conversation is about that shift.

From the floor…
to responsibility…
to building something bigger.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:21

I'm Antoine Melon and I'm here with Gideon Lasque. I've spent my career inside Hospitality building and running restaurant and hotels, working alongside the people who carry the pressure when the room is full. Gideon approaches it from the other side as someone who lives in restaurants and hotels and notices when something feels effortless and when it doesn't. And he's just come back from Paris with a lot of good stories again. This podcast is about the people who hold the room together, the operators, the managers, the teams who make hospitality work, especially when it's under pressure. Each episode moves from beginnings to turning points to the moment that tests judgment. And today we are joined by someone who has moved from running individual restaurants to building and scaling them. Gideon, please introduce Oh, I will, Antoine, I will.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

That was beautifully put, mate. Almost poetic. I'm just back from your motherland. I got a 5 a.m. or something, silly Eurostar just to be here today. Oh wow, thank you for it. And they didn't have any food. So I'm starving. On the Eurostar, no more food. On the Eurostar. Well, there was something went wrong. But bloody hell, I love Paris. Like springtime in Paris is everything everyone says about it. There's nothing. London's beautiful. I think this is the best city in the world to live in. We'll ask our guest about this in a little bit. Best city to live in, I think, but Paris may be the best to visit. Anyway, on with the main course. So listen, some people spend their careers running great rooms. Others go on to build them. And today we're lucky enough to be joined by someone who has done both. Yes, Matthew Maynard, you are the director of operations. Matthew Maynard is director of operations at Gold Restaurants, currently leading the expansion of the group across the UK and internationally. That means full responsibility for the business, from finding sites and shaping concepts to opening doors to making sure the thing actually works once it is live. But that perspective has been built over years and years and years in service. From early days behind the bar to running some of London's busiest and most recognizable restaurants. The Riding House Cafe, well, we're going to talk about Adam and Clive in a bit, one of the busiest openings of its time. The old Bengal Warehouse helping launch four businesses at once, plum and split milk at the Great Northern Hotel, pre- and post-opening responsibility. Then Fortham and Mason opening restaurants in London, Dubai, and Heathrow and relaunching 45 Gemin Street after its refurb. Then Hoy Peloy at the Ace, improving standards, reviews, and commercial performance. And then the Trafalgar at St. James, opening multiple food and drink outlets. And then Scale. Goodness me, you've done a lot, Matthew. Senior general manager across Bluebird, Chelsea, White City, and New York, director of FB at Nikki Beach Resort and Spa Dubai. Overseeing multiple outlets, major turnover, and the kind of resort operation where standards have to hold to 24-7. And now gold. Makes sense while you're there. Different formats, different pressures, but the same constant. The expectation to deliver every day. Matthew, welcome to No Reservation. Thank you very much. You must be here. You must be knackered after that career. Betty hell.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

I mean, I've forgotten about some of those things, I think.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

That's seriously colourful and rich and eclectic. And I'm only 37. God, how did you squeeze it all in? Started early. Um, listen, before we go anywhere else, how did you guys first cross paths, please? Matthew, what's your first memory of meeting Antoine?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Well, he just had to remind me of that. I must admit. I didn't do an impression obviously. Apparently, it was wandering around Notting Hill outside a wonderful brunch spot called Eggbreak, if I'm not mistaken. I opened that. Yeah? Yep. How long ago are we talking?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Oh, eight, nine years. It was John Venture between Saul House and Any Small now belongs fully to Any Small. And it was inspired by a famous restaurant in what restaurant?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

And you were just in the street trying to bring in people to come and eat? Well, I don't how did you guys meet? I don't understand.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

No, I think I was with uh Jean-Baptiste Royquiem, who's a friend of us, and who I gave his first job in London and will be for sure one of our next invitees. And uh he introduced me to Matthew, which we bumped into him and say how great this guy was.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

I had this image in my head of you standing outside like one of those fry-up places in bed. You're thinking, yes. Oh, that can't get that image out of my head. I love it, I love it, I love it. Um, and okay, so that was many years ago. And what do you know each other well? I'm just trying to gauge kind of a you damn, I'm looking for people to dish the dirt on Antoine. Do you have any?

SPEAKER_02 4:57

No, I I could I can't help you there, unfortunately. I don't um yeah, I wish I did, but I know it's gotta be some dirt out there. I think John Baptiste will be the man to know, I may assume. I think he pays people off very well.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

So listen, we're gonna explore a lot, especially given your career, Matthew. But where I typically like to begin is your first hospitality memory, not professionally, but as a guest.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, I think I spent a lot of time in Spain when I was much, much younger. My grandparents used to have a place in Costa del Seoul. So for all my summers, specifically Malbia. Um, and so by in fact, I hadn't spent a day of my life in the UK of August. So I'd never spent a day of August because every single year up until I was 18, you know, I'd break up from school in July and then be flown immediately. We went straight to the airport. Every summer in Malbia, tough. Every summer in Malbia, yeah, no. And so there's one particular restaurant that was very close to the to the apartment we had the typical Spanish place, but they did everything table side. And as a young child, that was that was very interesting. They, you know, were flambeing steaks in peppercorn sauce and doing crepesettes table side. And then at the end of the meal, this was, I mean, I wasn't old enough to drink, but nevertheless, I used to back then. Yes, but then they'd leave the bottle. Oh yeah. They would generous. Yeah. It didn't really matter what you ordered, a bottle of brandy, they they pour it and they'd leave it on the table. And and then they'd walk away. And I remember sort of awkwardly looking at this, but so what happens if we continue to drink this? Which of course we did.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

And then they never charge us any more money. But that's generosity, which you don't see anymore. And it's true that the Spanish do it very well, where it's just like, yeah, this is on us, or have drink whatever you want. And at the end, most of the people I don't think take too much advantage of it, but you it feels it leaves an impression, and you come back.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

It certainly did.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

I mean, I I went there, you know, many nights besides that, not always remembering them, but it was great. It's nice. I get I get to ask that question of a lot of people, kind of GMs and ops directors and stuff. And compared to when I asked the question to chefs, the answer is quite different. And you talk to a chef about their first hospitality memory, and it's very much just the food, it's all about the the food. But whenever I talk to someone like you, Matt, or you, Antoine, it's it's the ambiance, it's the experience, it's the full theatre of the thing, it's the dining room, it's the everything.

unknown 7:28

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Okay, so before we bring it back, back, back and talk to you about kind of pivotal moments in your career. Why don't we just talk about the week we've just had? Antoine and I like to compare notes, hospitality highlights and lowlights. So, Antoine, why don't we start with you, mate? Any highlights and lowlights?

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Yes, highlights. Well, actually, I just came out from a food testing for the Marbia Club. Well, Diona lives here, and we were trying some new dishes for the breakfast. And I learned about Cronut. Did you hear about Cronut? Yeah. Well, Cronut, sorry. I'm confused. About 15 years ago, Antoine. Yeah. Yes, Cronut, I knew about it. Okay. It was created by Dominican Sol in New York. There was a massive QE, came in London, was not a great success on left, unfortunately. But today we tried the crawful croissant mixed with waffle. And that was amazing. And it was the base for ex-benedictine, ex-florentine, ex-royale. And it was created by I just discovered and find out by thanks to uh Chat DBT chef Ray Steven in San Francisco. So it's a slightly less dense waffle. It's a croissant that you put inside a waffle machine. So it's got nice crispy and it's got the shape of the waffle and warm and so on, but still light of the fluffiness of the Bienwasary. Um so that was my light because I learned something on discover something different on you. So voila. Low light. Oof, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Before you go to low light, there's like I mean that strikes me as like novelty food, right? Does that still get the headlines? Does it bring in people into the doors? Is it is it uh does it become a signature thing?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

It could become a signature thing. Is it's a bit gimmicky, but I would not promote it. It was just like, oh, that's different, that's original. Do you have Matthew?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Do you have a signature?

SPEAKER_02 9:22

I've got well, I was talking of gimmicks, and I think one's just emerging. I saw this this week, is this sushi pop. Maybe you've seen this. No. There's a little, I think it's in Shoreditch in maybe a box park type setup. They put sushi, a sushi roll, inside. Essentially, if you remember, a calippo sort of used a tube. Yeah. And then outside it's got a little bit of soy sauce. And it's all over Instagram. But let's just clarify: this is just a sushi roll, an uncut sushi roll. In a calipo roll. Which you know, I I think part of the the price is I'd like it cut and able to eat it. And so now they're pushing this sushi roll out and the soy sauce goes on top. The soy sauce goes everywhere because it's just leaking through the thing.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

And people are going mad.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Yeah, no, that's too committing. I just I just think it's nonsense just to try to get some people and none. It it's utter nonsense eating it. There we are.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Sorry, mate, that was your highlight. Low light, please. So I had a friend's 50th birthday last Saturday, and he kindly invited all his friends. We were a group of 20 in a restaurant that just opened in Nottinghill, which is not open for dinner, but just sorry, doesn't open for lunch, just open for dinner. So he booked a lunch, they kept a place open just for us. Um, beautiful place, great fruit. But and I know they asked him to come a little bit earlier, so it it would not feel rush, but it felt extremely rush. We came a little bit later. So we had three hours, which three hours is not bad. Um, but they were rushing us to a point where one they were so worried that they wouldn't have time to turn around the room for the early dinner at six o'clock. Not sure how many tables they could get at six o'clock, to be honest. Um but they even offered to have the main course on a dessert together. And a guy spent 5,000 pounds of minimum spent. Wow. We had to drink Tinyanail, tough life, to reach that. But the fact that we were offered breakfast, um, dessert and main course together was I don't think was great.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

What's the secret to successful private hire? I mean, you do a lot of gold, right, Matthew? We do. Is it about having the right person running it or taking it so I think and we're very fortunate at Gold's.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

We have one of our waitresses, a lady called Raquel, and she's almost a specialist in the private events. And the difference she can make to that person's event or evening, I mean, she's been sent cards afterwards thanking them and the reviews um and being requested, you know, even by large corporates who book Google, etc., can we have this this girl serving us? Of course, we provide a beautiful room, beautiful vibe, beautiful food. But what sets that experience apart is that is that that person serving them 100%.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

That's interesting. Um go back to how people make a difference. Yeah. Uh yeah, done my birthday in that private dining room. You have once, and I like because it's got its own private bars, so it does. It just had I don't think you did you come, do you remember? Maybe you were not invited.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

I'm considerably younger than you, you probably don't invite me.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

But the uh yeah, it's a really nice room actually for a private dining room, which often private dining rooms are quite like a bit boring, even if they try to make the design like, wow, it's just four walls on the table on a few chairs. Uh so the fact you've got this nice bar it makes feel like more at home, more launch.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Um I won't ask Matthew directly because it might be awkward to answer, but a restaurant like Gold's, what percentage of their revenue are they making from private hire?

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Usually probably a restaurant, I would say in London, I would 15%. All right, chunky. But most of private rooms in London are probably book at 60% occupancy. Right. So 40 40% of the time are empty. Pretty I mean, Nottingham, for example, probably put how to book it at lunch because there's no many businesses around. Whereas in Mefair, uh they will book probably lunch on dinner midweek, end of the week, maybe more difficult, I don't know. But it's always like, is it better to have do you need really a private dining room nowadays compared when we'll be 40% of the time empty, or is it better to have more tables on chairs that you will fill all the time part of the restaurant?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Matthew, highlights and lowlights of the week for you, please, sir.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Highlight is a nice easy one. As I mentioned, it was my birthday on Monday. So I took a half day from work and went for lunch with uh my family at a little restaurant in Notting Hill that I've been meaning to go to for ages called Julie's. Um and it was a wonderful, wonderful meal. And again, one of the beautiful things about working in this industry is the relationships you develop with other operators. And and I've always been a big ambassador of when when other operators come in, ensuring they're well looked after, and we might do a nice gesture, whether it's some champagne to start or a few dishes from the kitchen. And that's that's exactly what they did. And it was it was delightful. So it was very nice of them to kind of share. It's a beautiful restaurant. Were you outside on the terrace? It was just a little bit too chilly for that. So we sat inside, and my my mum gets a little bit cold. So we sat inside on a Monday lunch as well. It was quite a nice, you know, the room was three-quarters full, and it was really good, delicious food, wonderful service. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Um they're putting a new site, Little Julie's, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

I saw it right opposite. Yes, well, that's not that's like a cafe uh which they've opened a few months ago, but they're opening uh they're taking over a pub in Nottingham. Ah, which they're starting a renovation, I think this week I saw. Lot of new pubs coming.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Nice highlight and happy birthday, sir. Low light.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Lowlight was well with this glorious weather's come, which is wonderful for our new restaurant over in Richmond Riverside. Tell us more about that restaurant. Because we haven't been yet. Yeah, where's the site? Uh so we took over a site which was the old pitch room piano for about 20 years on Richmond Riverside. We opened that in mid-November. So possibly not the best time for a restaurant with a hundred cover terrace, but nevertheless, it allowed us to ease ourselves into the operation. And and now we've been blessed with this wonderful weather. So the business, as you can imagine, has gone on through the roof. But on Saturday, just gone, we were full, full, full, full, and then the water stopped working. Which, as I'm sure you're aware in a restaurant, is quite challenging. Luckily, it came back on, but it's just you've been waiting six months for this beautiful weather and terrace is full, everyone's having a wonderful time, and then the the chaos of suddenly the taps have nothing coming out of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

What's the um what's the ambiance like? What's the brand like inside? Because we've seen restaurants from Notting Hill or Central London go to South West, and there is it's a different audience there. Are you trying to replicate Notting Hill or do something different?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

I think we're definitely not trying to replicate because we probably would have called it gold. Um, and I think the intention we intentionally didn't because we felt that gold didn't belong in in Richmond. Yeah, because it's gold's kind of a slightly urban, slightly naughty brand, which we're now in in the well-heeled Richmond area. So we didn't, and so the ambiance is it's a touch more luxurious. Gold's quite raw, and it's you know, brick walls and very dim and very dark, whereas Tower House is a bit more plush and the furniture's feels a bit more luxurious, and which probably appeals to to the Richmond demographic a lot better.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

How do you go about building that brand in Richmond, making it a destination?

SPEAKER_02 17:09

Well, Richmond's an interesting area because actually there's mostly chain restaurants there. A lot of a lot of small chain brands and and a lot of pubs, and to be honest, fairly mediocre pubs. And so what Richmond was crying out for was this kind of local neighbourhood restaurant that they could call their own, which which was truly independent in spirit and serving fantastic food in a great environment with a real vibe, and there is no vibey restaurants in Richmond. Um and and that's that's what we've done as well with just an absolutely stunning elevated terrace with views up and down the River Thames.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

So is there a recognition when you're opening a site like that you've got to invest more in terms of money and time in order to build a destination place?

SPEAKER_02 18:01

I think it was more you you obviously need to build a place that people want to be in. I think that's more important than frankly anything now. I think vibes it's above food and service to some degree. But authenticity and uh generosity in terms of uh a price point that's accessible. The price sensitivity is unbelievable these days from the general public. And I think that's incredibly important. Um and then great food, great service, but in a in an unfussy, friendly way. Ultimately, we run neighbourhood restaurants, we run ro local neighbourhood restaurants. These are not big, showy places in in central London, they're kind of on the fringes. Um, and that seems to work very well for us.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

I look forward to visiting, and I'm very happy for you. You've got your water back. Um, highlights and lowlights for me. So been in Paris all week, and Paris has lots of places you must go to. And so I went to a couple of them this week, both for the first time at least. Um, so the first souffle place, Le Camille, and someone I'll be butchering the name. Le Camille. That's exactly what I said. Uh and just fabulous. Wow, brilliant. Live lived up to its billing, just on my own, out on the terrace. Souffle. It was only souffles, yeah. And it was it was spectacular, absolutely spectacular. I had a I had a a vegetarian one to start and then a chocolate one to finish, just just magical service, fast, just what you want from a good Parmace restaurant. But just as a kind of a mono product, it feels very eggy. I s yeah, it needed some bread, but anyway, it was it was good, it was beautiful. And then I went to a place I think you like, hotel particular in Montmartre.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's beautiful there. So Hotel particulier, yeah. Just to translate myself.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

That sounds much safe for you when you say it like that. So it's this amazing five-bedroom hotel right on the top of Paris, like Sakur. Five-bedroom hotel with a restaurant, speakeasy, outdoor terrace. I mean, and and you have to like discover it, go through gates and passages and stuff, and you find it, and it's a beautiful oasis. And you feel very special to be there. But bloody hell, it then went downhill from there. I mean, how many waiters do you think? There were probably in just outside, maybe a hundred covers. How many waiters to cover that? One every 15 guess, I would say, yeah. All right, one one waiter. Jesus. My red wine, I had to ask five times. It took 45 minutes. You'd knock that off the bill, right? If someone didn't get a glass of red wine after 40 minutes. So, yeah, nothing knocked off the bill. It was a terrible experience and such a shame because it was beautiful. I'm gonna do two highlights actually. I stay in a lovely hotel called Hotel Castile, part of the um the star group, uh down in Rue Cambon in Paris. And the GM there, Alessandra Braggeli, um, from Italy, is just the most amazing woman. And we were talking to her a bit, I was there with my wife, and talking to her about what my wife does in Paris for Chanel. And she helps unseen, underprivileged kids with stuff. And Chanel was taking him through a thing at the Chanel head offices, teaching them about fashion and luxury and stuff like that. And when Alessandra heard about this, she said, Well, they need to learn about hospitality as a career. 90 kids. She said, Bring these 90 kids in tomorrow. I will line up. Each of my heads of department will serve ice cream to them on the terrace. And each head of department will take a group of 10 people and teach them about a career in hospitality. And I just thought that was bloody lovely. And Matthew, it picks upon a theme that we're talking a lot about on this show, where you compare hospitality in the UK to Italy and to France. And in Italy and France, it is a career. You start, you learn, you develop, you make your life there. Here, all too often it's I've got a bar job. I'm clearing plates, pave my way. It's a stepping stone to some of us, and it's really sad. But just to see this woman willing to bend over totally backwards to help these kids learn about hospitality. Bloody loved. Well done, Alessandra. So those are my highlights and lowlights, and your highlights and lowlights of the week. All right, Matthew, pivotal moments in your career. Bloody hell, they're gonna have been a few. So these could be these could be people, these could be dining rooms, these could be mistakes you've made, risks, moments. So over to you. Maybe we start in chronological order, or maybe you want to dot around, whatever springs to mind.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

I think that's probably that's probably easier if we start. Yeah. People in very early, when I was essentially really a bartender, um, and then eventually in the same in the same restaurant, ended up being the AGM of this restaurant. There was some Italian chap called Luigi. Um, I was 18 at the time. And he's always stuck with me as really that's the person I learned kind of true hospitality from, and and and also the basics of service, wine service, how to do a tablecloth correctly, all of these finer elements. And he was also just a very kind spirited individual. So that's that's I owe a I owe quite a lot to that gentleman. You're still in touch with you. He every now and then on Facebook, you know, birthday comes around, or he sees I've maybe taken a new job. This a little comment comes up.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Well, send him your podcast when it comes out.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

I will happily, I think he'll be very happy about that. He must be quite an old man these days. Uh so that that's uh that that's always stuck with me. And then moving forward, I mean you mentioned Adam and Clive earlier. The the Riding House Cafe was really the first serious central London restaurant that I'd worked in. I was 1920, maybe. Um, and it was the first time I was going into central London, and then it was an opening, and it was a big opening. Um and then it turned out to be you know one of the top ten busiest openings of 2011, and it was in all the magazines, Vogue and GQ, and it was absolute carnage. We were so busy, and it was a real baptism of fire for me to be running around this insanely busy restaurant. What was that? What was its secret? Adam and Clive were where we essentially where we are now. They had two really successful restaurants.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

I like to think that I made Adam and Clive who they are today through my patronage of the Garrids, the Garrison. Of the Garrison, yeah. Which was the pub that they opened with a chap called Hamish. Gosh, back in the day. And I spent so much money there that enabled them to open villages. And from their riding house cafe. Have they ever said thank you? No, but um you still in touch with them?

SPEAKER_02 25:00

No, no, I think they've they've do they're doing all their separate things these days, and it's all slightly different. I mean, this is quite a long time ago now, but they they did incredibly well with them. But their attention to detail, and I think they were slightly ahead of their time with Riding House in terms of the design and everything about it. It was all reclaimed wood, and they they made the private dining room look like a horse stable downstairs, and it was like really, really cool stuff. Now, which you you'd see, you'd kind of just blur, oh yeah, fine.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

It's just everyone does all sorts of they they were a great team, and it is sad that they're no longer working together. Some of you also love Adam and Cly. It's sad when yeah, a team breaks apart like that, there's a certain moment of magic. Um so Riding House Cafe.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

And it was and it was crazy. And it was it was a wonderful opening, and I stayed there for just over a year or so, and then I got an opportunity to go and work for DD at the time. So obviously, one of the biggest companies in London in terms of the amount of restaurants they they owned, now, now the Evolved collection. And they were opening a well, they were opening four restaurants in the city, just opposite Liverpool Street Station, called the Old Bengal Warehouse. I believe it was the old headquarters of the East India Tea Company at the time. And they opened four restaurants, so it was a big team, and I went there, and and I was mainly in charge of opening one of them, which we called Fish Market at the time, but again, it's kind of everyone supporting everyone. And it's interesting trying to open four restaurants or two restaurants, a wine bar um and a cocktail bar at once, shared kitchens, which is a chaotic, yeah, very challenging, very challenging. Lots of shouting and screaming in the basement there. Luckily, you you couldn't hear it at restaurant level, but a good experience, but it wasn't it wasn't really for me. I I realised it was slightly too corporate and uh wasn't really my vibe. Mind you saying that. I then You went back to them many years later, yeah. But that was that was different. Um then I went to my first my first hotel. Working in a hotel, which was an opening as King's Cross. King's Cross at the time was really not a particularly pleasant no, but they obviously knew that Goodwill Headingwaters was coming and that the I mean now King's Cross is is amazing. I mean I I'm from Islington, so I know it very well, and I've seen the change, and it's it's fantastic. But they they took a hotel right attached to King's Cross station called the Great Northern, and they did Mark Sargent, the chef, was kind of chef director of the restaurant Plummets Built Milk there on the first floor. And were you were you doing the hotel or the restaurant? I was F and B for the whole thing, yeah, exactly. Um, so you had private dining room, bar downstairs, room service, etc. It was a boutique hotel, really. It was not not huge. Um, but it was again a very exciting opening. It was nice, it was the first time I'd worked with kind of a a name chef, you know, an ex-kind of Gordon Ramsey disciple. Luckily, he wasn't that fiery. We had we had a head chef on site as well, who was a very nice chap at the time. But the best the best thing about that opening that sticks with me is the team. I had, I don't think I'll ever had a better team than I had when we opened that restaurant. What was that? It was a group of people, it was it was my first time. I was 21 years old and had quite a good position for for a lot of trust for a 21-year-old. I I know I know well. I was sort of obsessed at that age. I worked incredibly hard. Uh I definitely don't work as hard as now. Uh no, no, it's a no, it's not, it's intentionally not. I I really worked, you know, all the hours there was. I slept at the hotel a lot. Um, because you know, you had breakfast service starting at 7am and I was finishing at 11:30 midnight. And it was that was a wonderful uh thing about having a place in the hotel that you could just see if there's a spare room available, and they were quite they were quite pleasant at letting you stay there. But the team was was made up of still to this day, one of my my best friends who is a GM is in his own right now. Um there was a girl who I was ended up almost marrying, was a waitress there. Um and and just one again, no, no, that's a story for another podcast. Um, and it was just a team of people who really were dedicated and were really happy to be working together, and just incredibly just they were into it. Everyone knew everything about the menu, everyone was passionate, and so you just had this beautiful harmony on the floor of a bunch of don't survey often.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

It was so special that place. I went there a lot when it opened. It was a pretty room as well. Have you have you been there recently, though? It's just full of passengers on train with their life. No, no magic, gone.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Well, I think, and it's been taken over by great hotel machines and things like that. So but still a very fond opening. And then I went to Fort Normata, which was which was a massive curveball, because this was like a department store, right? That's the way I saw it. I didn't know, I was like, oh you're you're basically a a very bruisey supermarket. And I thought, why why would I go there? But then I met the people who were involved, and they had a new CEO called UI Inventors, who, as I'm sure you both know, is for me, I mean he's a very, very uh what's the word I'm looking for? Impressive guy. And another chap called Simon Thompson at the time, who again he'd been working at some fantastic places, he'd been at Scots, he'd been at Dumhill Club, and and he was kind of heading up heading up F and B. So sort of looked at it as interesting the people they were putting in place for clearly a a change. And what it was was they were putting Fortnite Mason, this kind of old, slightly cobbed web department store brand, into the 21st century, and still was of course honouring its its tradition and its history. And so I took the job and then found myself not that many months later in Dubai. And they opened a Fortland Mason department store in Dubai, right opposite the Bersh Khalifa, and they opened their classic afternoon tea room and their ice cream parlour, and it was it was an interesting experience, not necessarily the things that I was incredibly passionate about, but that was all culminating in the refurbishment of their corner site at 45 German Street.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

I love that dining room. I love sitting at the bar in that dining room, it makes me very happy.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Yeah, it's a good, it was, it's still probably one of my favourite openings in the sense that you were taking a restaurant that was originally called the Fountain and it had been there for 60 years and had a big following, but it was time for a change, and they rebranded it into 45 German Street, and we put a lot of time and effort into ensuring you had this wonderful room that was going to attract, you know, the the who's who of Mayfair and St. James. And it did from the moment we opened. I remember Grace Dent, the article she came out after she'd been to review us. She said, I couldn't think of a better place to go AWOL.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

A long, long lunch.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Yes. It will exactly. I I think she was illuminating till we had these boozy ice cream floats as a kind of nod to the to the previous restaurant. Um and it was and it was a very the breakfast there, it was like a power breakfast, you know. You had all of the the who's who editor of GQ here and all of this. It was good. It was really, really good. And again, a wonderful, wonderful team of people, really, really experienced people from the industry. Yeah. Which is is that it's very difficult to find that these days. Some of the the kind of older guard of hospitality who've worked at wonderful places. When you're opening a restaurant and you're interviewing, I mean, these people, they were all older than me. And I was the GM. I mean, it was quite very intimidating for me. These were they'd worked here, they'd worked here, they'd work here, and I was like, What a chance to learn that. But riding house, and it was good.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

They're doing they're doing something lovely in a space they have at the top of Fort Mont Mason's. I forget what it's called, but it's like a bar cafe area. And they invite artists to be like the artists in residence from Yes, there. It's it's just lovely. Kind of that my wife and I do quite a lot in the art world, and it really is kind of giving back, and they give them kind of, yeah, literally residency for a month to host exhibitions and run events and workshops and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

They do a lot of cool stuff. They have a boardroom. I don't know if you know this at Fortnite's, but it's literally the boardroom. Like we would have, you know, business meetings in there for various things, but also it was an entertainment space. It was like a private dining room, the boardroom at Fortnite Mesa. And there would be some hosted dinners by the CEO at the time with some real interesting hospitality characters, you know, Marco Pierre White and uh great chef Markets. Mark Kicks was there all the time, and then you'd have some interesting celebrities, Jimmy Carr and people like that. So they were real eclectic lunches, which I would inevitably kind of oversee in, you know, pop my head in, make sure everything was was going well. And I'll never forget Marco Pierre White. He's I sort of popped in the room and then he just started smoking. Of course, you couldn't smoke inside. Me Janelle's like, sort of looked at the CEO and seemed to be fine with it. And uh pick you get an ashtray. He said, Don't worry about that, Matthew, and then just put it out in his coat pocket. And then just said, No, my dry cleaner hates me.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

I I had two of my happiest hours. Sounds a bit weird, this, but two of my happiest hours flying back from Zurich just at the end of last year, and just in front of me was Marco Pierre White and another chef whose name I don't know, and they'd been at an expo of some sort where the chefs are paid to come and attend or whatever. Conversation must have been interesting. Oh my gosh. I mean, swearing just they were talking about their careers and hospitality, as well as tasting every element of food and piece of booze on the entire thing and critiquing it. But they were lovely and glorious, and bloody hell, what got good storytellers he is.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Absolutely amazing. I can imagine. I quite like it. I wish I would have fight his crude in his heydays. Was it Mirabel, his kind of Michener style restaurant? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Does he still cook? Oh, I know he's got restaurants, but does he still cook?

SPEAKER_00 35:46

That pub in yeah, he's got that pub in uh Contraside, I think it's Soray or something. Oh, the this is it a hotel as well? Yeah, I think there's a few bedroom.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Sorry, Fortnite Mason. Um, indeed. So Fortland Mason, that was, and then after that, because this is this is where I start to get lost in my uh where did I go?

SPEAKER_01 36:06

There was Hoi Paloi, there was Trafalgar, I think there was Bluebird in the mix. Ah, yes, Ace Hotel. That was fun.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

That was fun. Yeah, that's correct. I went from Fortune 2 to Ace, American brand, super cool. Really sad that it's no longer there. Yeah, because it what went wrong? ByeBee Hotel. Um I think COVID. Yeah. Yeah. But there's an element of COVID and it didn't work.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

They still have a strong presence in in the States. Because there was a whole bunch of American brands come over into that space, right? And God, what was the hotel with a rooster at the bottom called? Oh, yes, I know what you're talking about. Oh, with a nice pool on the top. That didn't work. That's now become that became the Mondrian. The Mondrian moved, and now it's a virgin hotel. What on earth is that? The curtain. The curtain. So that didn't that didn't work, and the Mondrian didn't work in its site at Sea Containers House and moved. And yeah, a virgin.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

I recursed that location. I mean, you say pool at the top, it's more like a large bathtub. But Ace was Ace was cool. I mean, it was it was you I remember you know the lobby at Ace was basically like a nightclub, right? You'd it was incredible to watch some people's faces who didn't really understand what they were booking when they'd been an Ace Hotel and they're kind of checking in with their luggage on a on a on a Friday evening. And of course, on a Friday evening the lobby at Ace was packed, packed with people, you know, absolutely drunk, you know, and plenty of other things happening. But that so that was fun because that was the first time I'd worked in kind of a lifestyle, very lifestyle, very trendy, very cool, very just didn't give a you know, very edgy, very edgy. So I thoroughly enjoyed that. And then after a year, I there was another hotel that was opening. This was a bit of a curb ball, again.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Very not lifestyle, Troffan Gar Sand.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

No, but it was well, every quidential, yeah, sort of. It was independently owned when I went. That very quickly changed. Did you need some sleep after the ace with it? Is that half off, you know, yeah, yes. It was even it was it was an opening and it was they had a wonderful, they've got an amazing rooftop there, but never quite managed to get it to be a big success. A rooftop that looks over Trafarga Square, yeah, incredible views. Um, was it who was your GM? Wonderful Pajaro GM of the hotel. Yeah, she was called Joanne Taylor Stag. She then went on I thought it was Roberto and closed. She's still in hotels very, very nicely. I actually learned a lot from her from in terms of the the people side of things and being a wonderful kind of people manager in a in a very nice fashion. She's a very warm lady, and dealt with the pressures, you know, you could tell there's serious pressure from above, but then kind of safeguarding the people below her. She was she was very she was very, very good at that. Because when business is is not necessarily going in the right direction, and you've got some you know, big boards sitting above you, and it's it's not easy, and sometimes that can show downwards. But she was wonderful at kind of keeping a positive atmosphere around the place.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

And then Bluebird, which your old friend used to and I I opened, I was part of the we've all we've all been through the doors of Bluebird. No. 97.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Goodness way.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Such a I shot I I used to shop for clothes at the Bluebird when it had a shop below. A garage.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

I never saw it in that guy. It was always a furniture shop or something.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

I remember it when it was a petrol station.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Wow. Yeah, it's a proper little kid. MacNoffle, the building. Yes, yeah. We have his car wow parked and downstairs.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Wow. There's a lot of history in that building. Yeah. But it was a great time. I was at Bluebird for three years, I ran Bluebird for three years. And in that three years, we there was another little one that opened over in White City, a much, much smaller version of Bluebird. And they did open one in New York, um, which I think for me the location was not necessarily correct.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Um I was there from more of a brand perspective. I like the Bluebird, I think it's reliable. I had my first cigar then when I was 18, and I couldn't leave the bathroom for four hours because I was puking so being sick. Yeah, I've been there.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

I've been there. It's a great terrace, right? I mean, the space is one of four. It's got one of the biggest outdoor terraces in London. And it's it's good fun. It's good fun.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

And then Nikki Beach. And then COVID hit, and I fled to Dubai. Oh, what's the craziest, juiciest thing you've seen going on in Dubai? I couldn't.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

I mean, it's just the list, the list is endless. Um, Nikki Beach in Dubai is both worlds because you have, of course, the beach club, and it's the biggest Nikki Beach in the world, because everything in Dubai is the you know the biggest and best. So you have this hedonistic beach club on one side, and then on the other side, you have Nikki Beach Hotel, which is actually a very serene, very small hotel by Dubai standards, 115 rooms, 15 private villas, which I you couldn't possibly tell you what happened. It happened, it happened happened in those. It wasn't serene. Yeah, maybe they weren't so serene. Um, and it was a wonderful time. And I spent I was in Dubai for three years, almost three years, but also I travelled to open Nicki Beach in Montenegro, which was great fun. Uh, I went to Saint-Tropez, I went to Nicky Beach just outside of Athens and a little place called Porta Heli. So it was a wonderful, yeah. I did COVID well. I actually was probably some of the best, the best three years of my life because I met wonderful, wonderful people. I'd never lived away from from London as an on a permanent basis. So that was the first time for me, and I was 31 when I left.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

And then did golds come hunting you? How did that come about?

SPEAKER_02 42:11

It was never permanent, it was never a permanent move. It was always, you know, I'm from London, my family's here, I'm very close to my family, and so it was just the it was the right opportunity at the right time, and it found me. It was a chef that I was acquainted with, called me up, said, Listen, I need an FB director in the community to buy. What are you doing? And a month later, you know, I was sitting at home on furlough, and so a month later I was on a plane. But in my head, it was like, I'm gonna do this for two, two, three years, ride COVID out, and I'll come back. And that's essentially exactly what I did. I think I would have stayed for a bit longer, but there was a whole relationship thing, and it was all very sad. And I was like, right, I need to get out of here. And so I was slowly putting the feelers out for a move back to London, and I got a call about gold. And I'd always known uh Nick, who owns gold. He used to come to Riding House uh when he was running nightclubs around the corner. Um we were talking and then eventually he said I'm I'm expanding and I want to do more. And so that was it. I eventually came home and uh and here we are. What's the future for you? So good question. Um you know for me I love I I love restaurants. I I'm I'm an obsessive kind of food. That's what I like to do in my spare time. If I have days off, I'm gonna be at a restaurant, at a new pub, out of this dude. That's it's what I enjoy. Um so for the future, I'd love to open more. But it's an interesting time in to be in our industry. But nevertheless, an interesting time still presents lots of opportunities. Um and I think if the right location comes along, I think we'll absolutely do more. Um, as long as the right location, right place, and hopefully keep opening great, great restaurants in in the neighborhoods that we want to be in. Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Matthew, we play a game now called Under Pressure. The the cards. I do have a card here that says what happens when the water gets turned off at a restaurant, but you handle that one very well. We've done that. I want to go, I want to go slightly off piste actually and ask you some different kind of under pressure questions. Um you you work in some part, you have worked in some party places. When's the right time to kind of stop the party because it's getting out of hand? Can you sense that happening and how do you teach and train your staff about that?

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Yeah, at Nikki, that happened often, which is why you have to have a very good relationship with the DJ. Because the DJ and a good DJ, which of course we had at Nikki Beach, really had the ability to create something out of nothing. That was always a sign of uh we had a resident DJ with Sabah. She was like, you know, she's actually a global DJ for Nikki Beach. And you could have one DJ playing, and there'd be no one on the dance floor. Vibes, average. Sabba would come on within 10 minutes. Boom, everyone starts getting off the sunbeds, dark floor fills up. So in the same vein, towards the end of the day, it's typically after the sun went down, um, 5, 5:30, and you can start to see there's people are getting seriously drunk now, and it's probably time to call it a day. You would nod to the DJ, and you know, did she just tweak the volume down a bit, change the type of music, and then eventually we'd call it we'd call it a day. And that would that was just a very nice way without causing any weird issues and getting security.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Interesting, isn't it? Because yeah, yeah, sometimes you're like, How can I you can see that it's escalating to a level that we're gonna start to lose control of when it gets messy, it gets messy.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Sometimes there's a really nice vibe and everyone's on a good level, but all of a sudden you start to see people falling in the pool and just getting a touch too much. And you know, Nicky Beach is a it's uh a high-end brand. We like, of course, we like to party, but we like to party still in a in a relatively civilized and and cool mode. And the moment it just starts to get a little bit like, oh, all of a sudden I'm in a nightclub in Essex.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

I think it's time to call it a day. Talk to me about influencers. So so many restaurants I've been in over recent months and years, it's just over the top. People setting up cameras and filming, changing their clothes for shots and stuff, and it kills the divine. I get they're a very important part of building a hotel, a restaurant brand, hotel or restaurant brand. How do you get the balance right in the room?

SPEAKER_02 46:55

Interestingly, certainly a gold, we don't we don't really do any marketing. We don't have influencers, we don't host influencers, we we never have. And I think they have their place. I mean, there's no you there's no question that they can pull people to uh an establishment, whether that is a pop-up, whether it's whatever it may be. Um, but at the same time, they also affect a room. And I think if you're talking tripods and this and that, I mean I just wouldn't have it at all. Um I quite enjoyed reading Jeremy King's piece recently on on influencers. I mean, I I just love I love him in general. But for me, it's it's a big no. I we I wouldn't for me, a restaurant done well can stand on its own two feet without having to to to do all of these things. And I think you know, look at Bérignac or Omah, Manteca, Bouchon Racine, these are all wonderful restaurants that are full, are really, really busy without the need of doing any of this. Because that's where when a lot of people sort of go, oh, you know, woe is me, it's really hard and it's tough times. Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

But a good one's still doing well, but the good ones who do good things still do well, just don't need it. Yeah. Um final card, somewhat related, is the VIP thing. So whenever I eat in your restaurant in Notting Hill, there's always someone pretty damn famous. And yet you maintain this neighbourhood feel, welcoming locals. Is that a hard balance to get right? Do you have to make considered decisions about allowing someone to come in even if they haven't booked and that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_02 48:53

It's a good it's a good question. But as you said, we're a neighbourhood restaurant, and we try to be very, very authentic with that. Um, if anything, we'll prioritize locals and regular customers over anyone else. And there has been many, many occasions and gold. If you if you try to get a table at gold on a Saturday night in a week or even three weeks from now, it's quite likely going to be a bit difficult. That said, there's always things that that can be done, but fundamentally, my my opinion on these things are if we have taken bookings and we are full, then that's it. And it doesn't really matter who it is.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

And some cases it's actually good to say no, I think. There's been a there's been a consistent theme to your answers throughout the day, which has been great, and that's about understanding the essence, I think, of the restaurant, of its brand, and how you create that through choosing who to bring in and and when to turn the music up and down. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 49:57

I just think it's yeah, I think you need to be authentic in the things you do. Yeah. And so, no, we don't hold tables back for celebs or you know only for Antoine and I.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Yeah, celebs. That's what talking of Antoine. Antoine likes staring into a crystal wall a little bit, don't you, Antoine? Um, and I know you've got some questions you wanted to ask Matthew about the future.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Yes, you mentioned early on about um hospitality on its tough time. Where do you think it's going? What's your view on how can we also be positive about it on inspire the young generation?

SPEAKER_02 50:34

Well, I think you you have to be, I mean you have to be positive, right? Because if if you if you don't if you don't want to do it, then just just don't do it, firstly. And like I touched on before, I believe if you do things well, there it can it's a business, right? We're all here to we're all here to make money. I mean, let's not sugarcoat it. As much as we love hospitality, they're they're businesses and for them to flourish, they need to make money. I do think you need to be positive on the outlook of at least some legisl legislative change, which I believe will come. I think it's the whole VAT side of things is building traction. Not in the next year or two, but at some point I believe there will be some green shoots of good news for hospitality in in the political side of things. And that's it. I think you've just got you've got to be positive, and it's such we're so good at adapting. Hospitality is such such an adaptive industry, you know. Whichever challenge presented you, you got a thousand balls coming at you, but somehow we still keep we still keep moving forward. Um and people are still opening sites, right? Every day I look at my phone, it's like, ah, there's a new site opening there, there's a new site opening.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

My only could ever you hear now that it's two restaurants a day closing in London, which is depressing. Uh yes, it's hard to make money, even if you have something which is decent.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

I think that's where a lot of maybe smaller, very passionate operators who it's their first restaurant, do go a little bit wrong with locations because there is kind of uh an equation of covers and square footage to a good business, right? And I think a lot of people get emotion, let emotion drive their decisions on sites. And yes, they may open a wonderful, wonderful restaurant, and we all love it, and the food's great, and the reviews are good, but behind the scenes their P ⁇ L is just not working because you know what? There's just not enough seats. Could be full every night, but there's still not enough seats.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

What do you think is the right size? Minimum, average.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

I think it needs to be, I would say you'd want about 120 covers.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

To have to have a really to have a good I'm talking to have a really good business that can do I always say yeah, 80 because I prefer to be full on a Monday night with 80 than half full with like 120 and 30 more. Um because yeah, you can maximize it on a weekend and you should be full on if you got 120, you're definitely gonna sit and and feel it and probably do a uh turn one and a half turn, but it's the midweek that's uh tough. It is tough depending on the occasion.

SPEAKER_02 53:28

But there's still I'm gonna say Bouchon Racine again, you know, you can't get a reservation for some matter what day of the week. Gold gold is busy on a Monday lunch, do you know?

SPEAKER_01 53:41

I'm gonna ask all of our listeners to write in. Do they agree with Matthew at 120 covers or Antoine at 80 covers or somewhere in between? Matthew, before we let you go, we like to keep building this little thing that Antoine and I are doing. Yeah. Um, and our best way of doing that is by asking you who you feel we should talk to next.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Oof. That is a difficult question. Who should you talk to next? Well, an interesting character, but he's a busy man. Who's obviously taking my one of my old employers, DD, Martin Williams. Great. He's I can't help but respect him, even though over in the restaurants, even though I used to work for them, uh, you know, I've moved in a slightly different direction with the places that I want to run. But he's I have a lot of good friends who work for that business. Let's do it. And he's ambitious. He's ambitious, and I think he'd be have an interesting perspective on the future.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Okay, let's get him on the phone. Um, so in hospitality, Matthew Antoine, a reservation guarantees you a seat, but it doesn't guarantee you a great night. That part is earned, it's earned by the people you rarely see, and that's who this podcast is all about. Thank you everyone for listening. This is no reservation.