Sean Coogan | Chiltern Firehouse, Hoxton Hotels and Maison Estelle

Some people spend their careers following trends.

Some seem to arrive just before them.

Sean Coogan has spent the last fifteen years around some of hospitality’s most talked-about openings.

From Boundary and Chiltern Firehouse to Hoxton Hotels, Ennismore and Maison Estelle, he’s built a career helping create places people genuinely want to be part of.

This conversation is about openings.

How culture gets built.
How standards survive growth.
And why some hospitality businesses become part of the conversation while others disappear.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:27

I'm Antoine Melon and I'm here with Gideon Lasque. I spend my career inside hospitality. Gideon experiences from the other side. As someone who spent a lot of time in restaurants and hotels and notices the details that most people miss. This podcast is about the people behind Great Hospitality. The people who build it, run it, protect it. Each episode we talk about the moments that shape them, the lessons they've learned, and how they handle the pressure when he arrives. And today we are joined by someone who seems to have spent his career turning up wherever hospitals are to move next. Gidon, please introduce our guest. It would be my absolute pleasure, but it would be remiss of me not to notice that my tan levels have finally surpassed yours. Have you not been out of the country last weekend? Yeah, some people are working. No, I was in the UK the last week. It's an important moment in time. Usually you're bronzed from your Varus away trip. So you've been in the UK the last week? Yes. Goodness me. How have you coped? It was okay, not bad, not bad. It's nice to see, it feels like the hospitality is thriving at the moment. I think obviously London with good weather is always at its best. But Terras Open, people want to go out. The World Cup, there's a good, nice energy, which we haven't seen for a few months. So let's surf the wave. Wow. Not that I want to bog ourselves down in World Cup, but hearing the US that room rates are down by 50%. And apparently this happens very commonly with a big sporting event like this, because the regulars just stay the hell away. So you might get good occupancy in and around a game night, but outside of that, have you ever had to deal with that in your career? Big sporting events. Have you ever run a hotel or restaurant where there's the world carpet or Euros or anything? No. Well, yes, at when I was in the Mandrodonian Hong Kong, we had the Olympics in China. So we had a bit of people visiting Hong Kong before going to Shanghai, Beijing, and so on. So it did impact us in a positive way. But it does make sense what you're saying. And yeah, I've heard that this year the tourism towards the US has dropped by quite a lot. Yeah, it's crazy. If you look at the game last night in Texas, right? All the hotel rooms were completely booked out last night. But now it's empty because no one else wants to come to Texas when there's a sporting event. Crazy times. Um we have a wonderfully handsome, well-dressed guest today, which is exciting for me. Some people spend their careers following trends. Some seem to just arrive just before them. Today we are joined by someone who has spent the last 15 years at the center of some of hospitality's most talked-about openings. Sean Coogan grew up in Birmingham and moved to London in 2008 with a history degree and a job at Brown's in Covent Garden. I used to love Browns. We could talk about Browns later. Old school. My mum's family are from Birmingham as well. He started behind the bar, hosted weighty tables, learned the business from the floor up, and then came Boundary. Great place. Working under Peter Prescott and Sir Terence Conran, first on the rooftop and later running the French restaurant. Then came Chiltern Firehouse. Joining before opening in 2014, Sean helped build one of truly the most influential hospitality launches of the last decade. Over the next five years, Sean progressed from restaurant manager to general manager to food and beverage director. From there, he joined Emmismoore, aka Hoxton Hotels, helping roll out restaurants and bars across Europe. And then came Maison Estelle, joining again before launch and helping create one of the most talked about, truly, private members' clubs in London. And most recently, his managing director is overseen the opening of Celeste. When you look at Sean's career, a pattern starts to emerge. He has a habit of turning up wherever hospitality is about to move next. Maybe it's him that makes him move. Maybe, baby. Sean, welcome to No Reservation. Cool names on your CV.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Bloody hell. Thanks very much for having me. Feels as though we should actually stop there whilst we're on a high, don't you think? Do you deliberately uncover the next cool thing and get there before it blows up? I I think I've been I think I've been lucky along. I think I've been lucky along the way. And I've worked for some incredible people, I've worked around some incredible people, and I suppose sometimes, you know, if these things turn out good. Very, very impressive.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Lots to talk about, but before we go anywhere else, gentlemen, how did your paths first cross? Who wants to go? I think I'm gonna let you take this one there. Okay. Uh my first memory of Sean was at Chilton Firehouse when I joined the company as chief of staff after Sewhouse. And I think Andre Bala showed me around the hotel and introduced me to the team. And Sean at that time was I think you were looking after the restaurant. And there was Guillaume Glipa, I think was more like an FMB director, and Guillaume Marley was the GM. And they were like, I mean, the place was at its peak after still six, seven years all being open. It was like hotest place to go, glamour, attention to detail, amazing service, membership without membership, a members club field without membership, I would say. Great food, nuno mondes. I mean it was like, wow, you can it was what London is best, um amazing place, which will reopen next year, no? Supposedly. So yeah, that's what the rumors say. I hope so. We've missed it. You say it's what London does best, but I thought it was also a bit of a breakthrough. It felt very fresh and new and somewhere I hadn't been to before. Was that was that all down to you, sir?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

I'm definitely not taking credit for that. Yeah, not all of it, anyway. I'm sure we'll mention Andre at some point in in the conversation. Of course, a lot of it stemmed from Andre and the you know the incredible team that he built around him, including a few suave Frenchmen, Mr. Marley, Guillaume Cleeper, and the gentleman sitting next to me as well. Because Antoine, you were there for a really long time, weren't you?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Thank you. Not unfortunately. But yeah, I mean, I think there's nothing that has come after since that has taken that spot. And that's why I think everyone is expecting the reopening of it on how Andre would have maybe even changed it on making even better. But it's true, there's there's that sense of attention to detail, everything being nice and done it properly without being overdone on Yeah, it's just it felt the right it anchored a street, which it just become as well, yeah. Um take such a beautiful heritage building. I mean a fire house, um converting into a hotel and restaurant was extremely smart. Antoine is like my brother, one of my very best friends on the planet, but I've never worked with him. I guess this is work, but it's pleasure, but it's work. What's it like to work with him?

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Pretty I mean, pretty straightforward. You're you're you're a sort of straight talking kind of guy. Actually, we were just talking before recording this conversation about you know when I when I need to get feedback from Antoine, I generally don't have to don't have to ask.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

I hope he feels constructive and not it's always very easy in hospitality to criticize places because no one is perfect and but I think yeah, it's always nice when someone, a colleague, someone from the industry can share inside at from a guest point of view.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Absolutely. And you brought a wealth of experience with you and a huge amount of respect from the industry, so it was quite effortless, really, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Who invented the wonderful jumpsuits at Chiltern Firehouse?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

That's always my favourite thing. I I've got to put that down to when Andre isn't, actually. Or was there anyone who designed No Did all the uniform podcast? Oh gosh, no. I really should remember the name of that, shouldn't I?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

A good outfit makes all the difference. I um I I'm often very down on Soho. Amelia Wixted. Amelia Wixted. I'm often very down on um Soho House, but the new outfits at 180 are great, designed by Olivar Brown. It got it spot on. Really, really cool. But Sean, let's go back even further, before you knew Antoine, before London, before hospitality. Well, not quite before hospitality. I'm less interested in your professional hospitality experience for this question, and more about when you first remember being at a restaurant, maybe as a child, or in a posh hotel for the first time. Do you have an overwhelming sense or memory of when that first was?

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Do you know what? I I can't say that I look back and have many memories of being at restaurants or posh hotels as a as a child. I suppose my ex my first experiences of of hospitality were around sort of great women in my family that were sort of matriarch type figures that were just sort of effortless hosts, I suppose, and great cooks. You know, one of which is my maternal grandmother, who just spent all of her time in the kitchen cooking and baking, and she had one of those houses that, you know, people were just constantly sort of popping in and out of. And I think my mother's sort of taken on the mantle from from her. I also have really vivid memories of my of my great aunt on my dad's side, who lived, they had a family farm in Ireland we used to go over every year. And actually, a slight aside, sort of understanding how that side of the food chain worked from a very early age gave me a gave me a very interesting perspective. But also, you know, just being around a very genuine, warm, incredible host who just cooked really wonderful, you know, simple food very effortlessly. And actually, the the way that's inspired me is that now when I when I'm sort of you know looking for great people, I'm looking for great natural-born hosts who like to cook in their own home or or or have people over or you know, make cocktails from scratch who really sort of, you know, make an effort when they're hosting people in their own in their own home. So that's really what I think about in terms of you know great hospitality when I when I look back. That's great. What a lovely answer.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

All right. Before we talk more about the other important people in your life, let's talk highlights and lowlights of the week, guys. Sean, I'm interested in your hospitality highlights and lowlights, please.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

So this this is a great one, actually, that will that will stay with me, I think. This was an experience from a couple of weeks ago. My family and I went to Puglia. We stayed near Ostuni. And we went to one of these masseras. Now I hadn't heard of a masseria before, I didn't know what it was. Remind us, what is it? Well, uh apparently it's a sort of farmhouse that's been converted into a bed and breakfast type of establishment. And there was that there are a bunch of them in in Puglia, it's a very traditional thing. So we went along to dinner at one of these places with another family who live nearby and they just happened to be over there at the same time. And we arrived at this absolutely stunning courtyard. We walked into this dining room, which is probably one of the most breathtaking dining rooms I've ever seen. And not because it was designed that way, but because it had just been sort of formed over time. You know, it was oversized fireplace hearths and cabinetry built around these sort of structured arches and beautiful lamps and tableware. And it was it was it was breathtaking. And, you know, we were with a bunch of young kids, and any parent of young kids will tell you that the most precarious part of the experience is that first 10 to 15 minutes when you're trying to get them sat in a baby chair and get some bread over just so that they calm down and get them watered and you know, avoid getting the iPad out at all costs. But it it so happened that the Maitre D just took over the situation. I wasn't even allowed to sit down before he said, Right, dads, get yourself out to the courtyard, go play ping pong with the kids, I'll bring a beer for you. Mums, you order the food, you order the wine, and dads will call you guys in when the food is ready. And it was just a wonderful moment of just pure hospitality that I think he just dealt with that situation so well. He made us feel incredibly comfortable. Of course, the food was absolutely remarkable. You know, there's an honor in the corner making Norachietti, just, you know, working away and the smells coming from the kitchen. It was just like it was a really sort of genuine experience. And I will remember that because that's taught me a lesson about how to deal with that situation on the other side. It was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Oh, you tell that story beautifully. They used to call me, oh god, I hope my ex-wife isn't listening, nor my mum. They used to they used to call me cowpole dad. So cowpol is obviously kind of liquid paracetamol for kids. To avoid the awkward 15 minutes, I would always pump them full of cowpol before arriving at a restaurant or a friend's house. They were dozing you. I was dosing them, yes. That so was. I was cowpole dad. Not that I would recommend that to any of our listeners ever. I do not endorse dragging one's children. No judgment here. Um hell lights.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

I suppose, okay, this is off the back of a recent experience, but I suppose this is a sort of a general mediocre Sunday roasts. Now, I if I pay a lot of money for. Well, that that as well, obviously. That I'm not as concerned about if it's really good, obviously, if I'm mediocre, then then of course, yes, it's a problem. I I I would be in a pub in mid-August sitting outside, and I would order a roast. I bloody love a roast. And there are just too many pubs where the the gravy is too watery, the Yorkshire's have been sitting under the heat lamps, the roasts are not crispy. It just, you know, the British are not known necessarily for having a strong historical food culture. The one thing we're known for is our Sunday roast. You've got to get it right. So that that is a general buying, I have to say. Is it hard to do a roast?

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Well, we could do a roast beef in French.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Exactly. Exactly. We're even called La Rose Beef and we can't even cook Le Rose beef. Is it hard to do at scale, a roast? There are tricks. I'm not a chef. Yeah, yeah. And it's probably the only job that I haven't done actually is being on that side of the kitchen. But there are there are these little tricks that chefs have to create, you know, really well done roasts at scale. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

And Ryan. Highlights and lowlights. Highlights. Last week, Saturday, I went to the corner shop, which was created by Oli Jones. And I'm gonna pronounce his name very badly, Gus Orton, I think we say. Young guys, I know him for years. Oli's obviously the son of Nick Jones, but he's done his own career and work in great places for JKs, for example. And they created that corner shop at the uh corner of 180 the strand, which is like a daily with bakery and all the product amazing and fresh, and it's simple and seasonal, and it's great value for money. Very fuzzy. Yeah, nice buzz. It's perfect. You just want to have a glass of rose on a salad, or I had a a roast chicken, which was beautiful. And sometimes simple things can be great. And uh did you go to Nick's new hotel, St. Clement? Well, Gus give me uh a bit of a have a look. It was closed, it opened, I think, officially yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Well, you went for the preview. I did. How was it? I was very impressed. And actually, I got a really nice preview of the penthouse. And I I'm not necessarily a views person. I don't go to places for views, but the view is absolutely spectacular. I guess it's where it's situated on the river. You can literally see everything that you might want to see on the London Scum line. It's impressive.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

On Nick says I read an article in a press. It's a mix between Chiltern Firehouse and carriages, I think. If they had a baby, is how I described it. Interesting. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

It's definitely got that, it's got that free-song, it's got the at it's got that attitude. I mean, you know, I went during the soft launch and it looked great, it felt very slick. I was I was really impressed. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

It's a good way to describe it. I mean, Nick is always like to describe things like that a very easy way, you understand. Yeah, I mean, it's always the old school hospitality with uh the coolness and uh and modernity of uh apparently the the interiors there's obviously some red thread between kind of soho house and what he's done there, but apparently far more feminine.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah, it's the it doesn't look like Eagle that in the uh design it doesn't look like a Soho House 3.0. No. It's it's got its own unique identity, I'd say. Well done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Oldie Jones for the corner shop on Gus. My lowlight is why the government is not doing anything about the VAT. Everyone is asking for it. The number of restaurants closing now a day is has increased to four to six in UK. I'd like to remember, remind everyone that hospitality is the third employer in UK. There's three million people employing hospitality. But at the moment, there's a lot of people losing jobs because restaurants like today, Morito, which is a classic in X-Men market, announced the closing. That restaurant is an institution, it's been there for 20 years. And restaurants cannot survive anymore because with the business rates and cost of living and minimum wage, rent, they don't make profit anymore. So when you lose money, at one point your cash is gone and you have no other choice than closing. And it would be making such a difference to drop the VH from 20 to 10 on food only, which will let the restaurateur to break. And of course the government will lose some money, but they're losing more by having restaurants closing on not paying any VH. Here, here. Come on, Mr. Starmer. Sort it out. So listen, I I had two lowlights, and I'm gonna do two lowlights, but let's put a highlight in there just to try and bring us back from that. The Scots in Boston. They have drunk Boston out of beer. There is no beer in Boston because the Scots are based there for the World Cup games. I just think that's phenomenal. Yeah, look at the pictures and videos, it's just glorious. What a wonderful nation. All right, two low lights. Um, I have just come back from Athens, where I spent the week. Love Athens, love the Greeks, had a wonderful time, but the hotel Ace Hotel, newly opened in Athens, they took over the old Phoenix hotel and converted it. My first low light is around the conversion. When you take over what was a two, three-star hotel at best, and you then open it as a five-star hotel. Is it five-star or four-star plus? This is billed as a five-star hotel. It's got a number of different restaurants, and when you do that, you have to invest in more in the infrastructure. And everything's painted nicely and nice art and nice beds. But the actual rooms are maybe the smallest hotel rooms I've stayed at in years and years and years, and dark because they're so small. And what they needed to do was to knock two of the existing units together and create a proper room. Normally. So a real low light, because I was paying quite a lot of money to be there, but it made me want to ask you guys a question because I'm not a hospitality expert. Now, my assumption is it's some form of licensing, like ACE hasn't opened that hotel. Some wealthy Greek ship owner has probably opened a hotel and done a deal with ACE. Well, most hotel are not owned by the brand. And operated by the brand. Indeed. So this is my this is my hunch. Now, Ace wanting to protect its brand, I imagine. How did it let something like that happen? Because there's not going to be any guests that, like me, seen Ace in Palm Springs and the rooms there and had the most fabulous time. Kyoto's amazing. And you come to this and ugh, how does that happen? How do you protect the quality? Well, normally when you bring an operator, they have obviously the guy in the standards. And if you want us to manage your asset, this is the standard we have. Maybe the deals are done before the hotel is refurbed or but in that case, maybe the the owner says, No, I don't have the money to like break up the room, and then I wanted he wanted more revenue per square meter. Because at the end of the day, hotel owner, the what do you think? It's revenue per square meter that they can generate by bringing a particular brand. So obviously, the more high scale the brand, the more.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

More average room rate you get. It's a tough balance to strike in the business, isn't it? It's you know maintaining brand integrity, but looking at number of available potential keys in a in a hotel like that.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

If you look at Paris and New York, the rooms are tiny in general for well for a high price. So I mean, Hoxton, we said before the recall, I just I love Hoxton. I'll always stay in the Hoxton hotels if I can. I really love the Hoxton in Paris, really love it. And they've got some very small rooms, interior facing, but it works. Someone has thought about how you really deal with a small footprint.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yes. The ace not so much. Well, NSMore, Ennismore is quite a unique business in that it it it sort of tackles everything that a hotel needs from start to finish in-house. So they've got a, you know, they've got a fantastic interior design team that work on every single project, individualise every project, look at the market and make sure that the product works for the building and the and the immediate vicinity. They're very smart about how they do it.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

And it's uh a Monday evening problem where it's very clear that restaurants and hotels tend not to have their best people and best checks working on the Monday evening. And yet they still open and still charge the same prices and all that kind of stuff. I had one of the worst dinners I've ever had on that Monday night, and anyway, dealt with, didn't end up paying for it. But it damages my perception of that place. And I'm telling this story about the restaurant now. Should you open on a Monday night if you can't get the right team? How do you deal with a situation like that? As a hotel, you you have to open seven days a week for your hotel guest. Okay. So you need to have a restaurant that's kind of 27 days on like breakfast, lunch, dinner, so you're forced. The fact that they don't have enough strong people, that's an issue from the hotel, but yeah, you have to open. There's a lot of restaurants in London over the last three, four years that are decided to close Sunday, Monday because what they realized it was such a struggle to find good staff that at the end they prefer to close on Sunday, Monday, which are uh tend to be depends what kind of a restaurant you are, but your less profitable days.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

And in order to have your strong team working five days, Monday to uh Tuesday to uh Saturday.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, it's much easier from a shift pattern perspective, isn't it, to have a five-day. You open seven days a week every day. Absolutely, absolutely. And there's an added level of complication, but of course, you know, it's it's up to the business to make sure that the number two and the number three are as strong performing as the as the number one, and you know, you shouldn't have to experience a dip in service food or otherwise just because you're going on a on on a Sunday evening or a Monday evening.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

I ended up in quite a faulty towers like conversation with a poor woman um managing saying inverted commerce the the the evening. And gentlemen, as as professionals, you serve a menu that says starters and main courses and sites. Sean, when would you serve the starters? After the dessert.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Is that where we are, is it?

SPEAKER_01 25:21

With the with the dessert, they came. Right, okay. The sides came after the dessert. I thought the main, my three lamb chops. I mean, one was like dead, it was so burnt. One was completely raw, and the other was like grey, like it was three weeks old. Anyway, sorry, ace, let's not dwell on low lights. Let's let's bounce, let's bounce to positivity. Positivity, pivotal moments, turning points. So we heard about the strong matriarchs in your life. I want to hear about other people in your life. Who was your first boss in hospitality?

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Oh gosh. I probably I probably have to go to. I mean, I've been working in hospitality from the age of 16. So the first sort of job I had from 16 to actually after I graduated, where I'd kind of, you know, done a Christmas and summer and Easter sort of block of time. It's I can't really comment on. I think really if I think about inspirational leaders, it's people like Peter and actually Nicholas Garcia at Boundary. Nicholas is now the GM of Lillibet. And that, you know, I was I was young, I was 21 and still sort of picking, picking it up as I went along. It was it was my first experience in a a more kind of quote unquote fine dining background and business. And I I think, you know, working alongside, you know, true professionals, real, you know, Francophiles in the case of Peter Prescott, it was, you know, it was really, really inspiring. People who took their craft very seriously and were really, really serious about how they delivered it.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Without naming names, was there someone you worked for that was so terrible you learned what not to be?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

I no. Honestly speaking, no, there wasn't one person that I that I can identify that I didn't want to take anything from. I think I've got I've got a lot of background of you know incredible leaders around me. And of course, just like with anybody, every you know, everyone's has their their sort of strong moments and their weak moments, and you sort of take the good things that you want to take as inspiration and then you know perhaps leave behind the things that you didn't like so much. But I'm I'm actually lucky in the in the in the way that I haven't had many leaders that I've that I've really been turned off by. Diplomat. It's true, it's honestly true, it's honestly true.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Tell me about the people that have worked for you. Are there any that you're particularly proud of and feel you kind of mentored them and they've gone on to achieve amazing things?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Do you know what I was always really inspired by was the number of people who work in hospitality where hospitality is their side hustle. They're not necessarily focused on hospitality as a career, but when they turn up to work, they are 100% there, absolutely smashing out, park day in, day out. And it always gave me such pride to see whoever that person was leave after a period of time to go and launch their own fashion label or, you know, be a very successful model in one case. And I just think, you know, I'd like to think that they learnt something from me along the way, from the business along the way. I just think it takes, you know, it takes a lot of balls for someone to go and you know and leave an industry where you know they they they could potentially have a great future to go out on their own and do something and and to turn it from a from you know almost a sort of you know side hustle to something, you know to move away from their side hustle and into the career that they love. Very nice. Did you marry the model? She looks like a model.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Oh, good man. I'm a sucker for a nice dining room. What's the favorite favourite dining room you've ever worked in?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

I th I think it's got it's got to be the Brassy and Maison Hostel. I think it's probably the most beautiful dining room in London. I I can't I can't think of a more breathtaking space, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

I've never been invited, so I don't know. Well, take your word for it.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Okay, well that that was that that was a heavy hint. Uh cities you've worked in, favourite? I went so when when I was working with Hoxton, it was actually during COVID. So although I was responsible for sort of rolling out all of these incredible European openings, I was doing so from my flat in Stonington. So so my the vast the vast majority of my career has been in London. I did go out to Rome as that was sort of building up on a number of occasions, and then obviously everything is shut down. So I apologize to my colleagues at Ennismore who have inherited my fine work in Barcelona and Vienna and Dublin and Amsterdam and wherever else. But in my defense, it was all off plan. It was all it was all in my little flat, I'm afraid. Did you feel sad that you work on a project that you haven't seen finished because you could you were not able to call it? Yeah, it was it was it was a bit sad. It was a bit sad actually. But it was actually, you know, I I I always thought it was a real positive that I was in hospitality and able to work through COVID. I mean, I had I was furloughed for a month and I started cooking dinner at 6 30 in the morning. I I need I need to do something. I can't just be sitting around. So I felt I felt lucky more than anything, frankly.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Is it true that Mesa Mastel's opening in New York?

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Watch this space. If they were if if they were, would you like to go and work out there? I don't know. I'm I've I've been in London for a long time, and London is very much my my city. Your kids are what, two and five? Did you say? Yeah, my eld my eldest goes to school now, and you know, he's settled. My daughter will hopefully go to that school as well. So yeah, I'm I'm pretty London through and through now.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Restaurants in hotels or restaurants that are just restaurants, if you had to choose one career track for the rest of your life, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 31:23

There's there's something there's something quite special about restaurants in hotels. I think the the bedroom element adds another dynamic, doesn't it? It's that sort of 24-hour anything could happen kind of feeling. So there's yeah, there's something quite exciting about it. If you look, if you look at my career, you know, there's there's a couple of restaurants in there, but but most of it has been attached to a hotel or in, you know, in my case now a members club. And it adds it adds another dynamic, which I think is quite quite fun.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

More complexity. Absolutely. It makes it more interesting. I mean, a hotel, like you've got obviously revenue from rooms, which usually is the most profitable department, food and beverage, spa, advance. You've got a lot of room centre retail, which makes it interesting. Compared to a restaurant, which maybe is just what it is, yeah. What gamble, what's the biggest gamble you've made in your career? And did it pay off or not?

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Well, it was pr it was probably leaving Chotten Firehouse, actually. You know, I'd done I'd done five great years. As Antoine said, it was, you know, it was still as hot as it as it ever had been. But it just felt like the right time, honestly. And I, you know, I feel like I joined a great business. I started working from for Sharan at that point. I still work for Charan. So clearly the gamble has paid off. But yeah, it was it was it was a big step away. Yeah, it was it was it was tough as well because I was leaving the team that you know really I'd I'd built. So that was that was strange, but it felt like the right time, and yeah, I feel like it was it was the right move.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Antoine and I are a bit older than you. Anton quite a lot older than me. We've made a lot of mistakes in our careers that we've learned from. What are the biggest mistakes you've made? I I can't but I'm coming to the point.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Took the words out of my mouth. I d I I don't I don't think I've made any career mistakes. I think I look back and I'm you know really proud of what I've done and I think I've learned a lot from everything that I've done. Of course I've made a lot of mistakes in general. I I think you know, looking back at my younger self, perhaps there were moments where, you know, I'm a I'm a natural people pleaser, as I think a lot of people in hospitality are. And perhaps I was too much of a people pleaser with my team. And I I always wanted the spirit to be positive, and I always wanted everybody to be happy, and I always wanted everybody to agree on everything. And the truth is, you know, you can't get anything done like that, and it's also not realistic. So, you know, I've learned over time that it's okay that people are pissed off sometimes, and it's okay that you don't agree all the time, and actually you can get a lot more done in that in that way.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Browns, because you mentioned it at the very beginning. Yeah. I just have such fond memories when I was at Unidan in Bristol at Browns. What an institution. Like it's still going. I know.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Who who owns it and what's its secret to longevity? Well, I think it's still Mitchell Mitchell and Butlers. And it was, it was when I was working for um, I suppose just consistency, you know. I I it was it was 18 months of my career. It was a great stepping stone into London. At the time, I I don't think I was really thinking about hospitality as a serious career. I just wanted to move to London, you know, the land of opportunity. And it was after about six months of being there, where I was given this opportunity to do a bit of everything, that I thought, actually, do you know what? This this could be the career for me. It's it once it bites you, it's quite difficult to shake it off, isn't it? Antoine, have you been to a Browns?

SPEAKER_01 35:06

I think so. Well, it remind me waiters. They're often in kind of no, in but is there one in St. James? I don't know. Often uni towns. Uni towns. Often old building, just kind of church-like architecture. So maybe not. I thought there's a bronze hotel. The kind of place your parents would come and uni and take you. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

It's you know, it's it's it's a good solid brassery. And I was at the one in St. Martin's Lane in Covent Garden, and it was it's a beast. It was an absolute beast. I should tell you to some of these, Antoine. Have you been to Cafe Rouge?

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Yeah, in the good days. In late 90s, it was like I think then it became he lost his shine on its authenticity. In I used to go to the one in uh Pundler, it still exists. I know, but the food is that was bad. And I think you know what? I think Café Rouge did really hurt French cuisine, and that's why for 20 years there was not much French restaurant, and if there's no renaissance of French cuisine with Josephine, Bouchon Racine won best restaurant of the in UK last this week at the restaurant awards. There's a lot of bistro on Bouchon opening soon. But I think Cafe Rouge at the beginning was very good, but and then it became c it was sold a couple of times. The food became crap, and I think it actually really hurt the French cuisine. Have you read into uh Camille in Baromart? No, I heard very good. I just won a very big award as well. Have you been there?

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Nonetheless.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Calling next, isn't it? I mean, as as much as much as we get depressed about places going bust every day, boy, there's still a lot of very quality openings happening. Sean, Antoine and I have decided that we want to invest in you. We want to buy a hotel with restaurants. In London, don't worry, you're gonna have to travel. Of the various places you've worked, I want you to pick ingredients to put into this new hotel. So, which where would you go for kind of restaurant inspiration? Where would you go for hiring inspiration? Where would you go for decor inspiration? I want you to pick an ingredient from each of the places you have been. So we can start way back at Brown's. What from Browns would you put into this hotel?

SPEAKER_00 37:22

I would have to say, I'd have to say the consistency, and every great restaurant has to have consistency. I like love love that answer. Yeah. Boundary. I would say the I think Boundary was boundary was ahead of its time. If you think back to that time in Shoreditch, it was it was on its own. You know, the Shoreditch House, there was the Owl on Pussycat on Redshire Street, and that place. So I I think you know it was it was brave. Love it. From a food perspective, it pushed the boundaries, pardon the pun. So I would say that. Alright, consistency, braveness. Chilton, the jump the game. The glamour, the vibe, the atmosphere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

The glamour, the the special ingredients. Hoxton.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

The cool the coolness. Okay. There's a real youthful coolness, I think, to the Hoxton brand. Yeah, there's a youthful energy. Uh Maisonister. The hosted home element and the service which is, you know, entirely personalized to the member. And Celeste. Neighbourhood. Yeah, the neighbourhood element. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's it's the very best kind of neighbourhood restaurant, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Whose food would you pick?

SPEAKER_00 38:52

I think I would have to say I'd have to say Celeste, actually. I think our chef Francesco Setambrini is a real talent. He was a labracole before he came along, Iris, and I think, yeah, I think he's he's a huge talent. Did you find the chef Antoine?

SPEAKER_01 39:09

No. Okay. Alright. Under pressure. You ready? He's sitting tight. You thought he was already under pressure. Alright, I'm gonna run you through a few scenarios. Some of which might be slightly uncomfortable. The catch is they're all gonna happen on the same night. Unfortunately, it's one of those services, the sort that starts slightly behind schedule and somehow keeps getting worse and worse. And I want to see how you survive. Are you ready? I'm ready. All right. So the room is full. Not busy, full, properly full. The bar is three deep. The kitchen is 20 minutes behind. Nothing's gone wrong yet, but everyone feels pretty stretched. And then the front door opens. It's Tom Cruise. No reservation. Everyone recognizes him. They expect to be seated. What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 40:04

This is a hypothetical, obviously, right? It's a hypothetical. This is a hypothetical restaurant.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

It's a hypothetical restaurant. This is not where you were, not where you worked today. Okay. Well, this is an easy one. You make it happen. I think any good maitre D worth their salt have always got something up their sleeve. They're always ready to take a risk. You always know, sadly, there's going to be an element of no-show cancellations. You hold whoever it is and bar for a glass of champagne and a little snack, a bit of chocolate. That's a pork scratching, Tom. It's like it's like a game of Tetris. You make it happen. You make it happen.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

All right, Sean. Sean makes it happen. You've somehow dealt with Tom. The room settles. Then someone from the kitchen finds you. There's been an argument. A big one. The head chef has taken off their apron and they've walked out, Sean. No shot, no shouting, no drama. They're just gone. The whole team are looking at you. What do you do? And you told us you never cooked, so I'm starting to worry.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Yeah, I'm not I'm not getting on the line. That's that's what I'm not doing. No, look, you've got it, you gotta go straight to Sioux Chef. I mean, again, any good restaurant there, Sous Chef should almost be knocking on the door of head chef. So, you know, you rally the troops, you go straight to Sioux, you you make sure everything is rebalanced, and you you touch everyone in that kitchen and make sure everyone's sort of firing on all cylinders. Another another straightforward one.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Thank God for Sushare. Okay, so the kitchen is somehow still functioning. Yes, this remains hypothetical. This is this is the hotel that Antoine and I purchased for you, okay? So service is moving, and then the two owners apply, and they're clearly a little bit pissed. We don't like the music, we don't like the lighting, we don't like the table layout. Some of the guests we don't feel should have been let in, and we start interfering. And it's pissing people off. What do you do? How do you handle us?

SPEAKER_00 42:10

How do I handle you guys? Well, I I think I would I would make you understand how important it is for you to see things in the eye of the guest. So I would take both of your hands and we would walk the space together. If the lighting needed tweaking, we would tweak. If the music needed tweaking, we would we would tweak. But most importantly, you would understand that if I were to change everything with an entirely full restaurant, you'd just ruin it in one fell swoop. So I would take your hand and we would go on the journey together.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Yeah, someone said the other day, you need to protect the room, which I like. Which is what you're saying. You like it when a strange man holds your hand anyway.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

Well, strange, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

So you've survived us. One of your most important regulars arrived, Jordan. They spend well. They bring people. They're a big supporter of you and of the business. But tonight they've bought their children and you don't have a table tennis table outside, I'm afraid. At first it's charming, and then the volume increases, and the iPads come out, and they're listening to the iPads out loud, and they're throwing food around, and the other tables who are having a refined time or were, suddenly aren't. What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Well, I will actually have to take cue from my friends at the Maseria, and I would take charge of the situation, and I would find a space for the kids where they're a little bit tucked away, but they're comfortable. I'm bringing them ice cream, I'm bringing them sweets, I'm making sure they're looked after, the parents are looked after, and that no one else is affected. I I I have my answer as of two weeks. Very good.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

I'll ship you some cowpol as well. So you've sorted out a kid's, uh so you think. A table asks for the bill, and it's a big one. They've eaten everything. Everything sure and they've drunk everything, and then kindly explain they're simply not gonna pay. They're not angry, not aggressive, just completely convinced that they're right, that actually it hasn't been good enough and they shouldn't pay. The team are watching and other diners are watching.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

What do you do? I'm gonna back myself on this one. And I obviously step in, I do the talking, but I have belief in myself that I can turn this situation around. Now, if this person has some constructive feedback about certain elements, I'm willing to have that conversation and concede. But I think by the end of the conversation, I think that bill's getting paid. I like it. I'm backing myself.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

I don't think I mess with this guy. I'm backing myself. The table finally pays and leaves. One of the influencers that has been invited by your PR firm, RPR firm, has decided tonight isn't really about the restaurant anymore. It's going to be about them. Out comes their tripod, the staff are being filmed, guests are being filmed, there's big flashes happening, furniture is moved, clothes are being changed at the table. And somehow they're acting like they're health you. What do you do? How do you deal with it? They've got millions of followers. It's a no it's a no.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

It's it's it's a no from me. I mean, look, when when we're not in the business of knowing hospitality, it's always no, but because you always sort of try and find another way. But this is just this is just a flat no. It didn't happen. All right, quite bloody right too.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

All right, the influencer has accepted your no and put their cavalry away. More. A table orders one of the most expensive bottles on the list. What is the most expensive bottle you've ever had on one of your wine lists? That on my way too quickly. How much is that? Into the tens of thousands. Okay, so someone's ordered a magnum of that. It's the sort of bottle everyone notices. It's opened, it's poured, everyone tastes it and has a second taste. And half the bottle disappears, and then someone announces that there's a problem with it. It clearly isn't right.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

What do you do? I think I think in this case you've you've got to take their side, you've got to take it on the chin. It's so it's so subjective.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

I know, but in hospitality, there's so many present a bottle, open it, make you test it in order for you to say, yes, it's fine, go ahead, serve it. If this protocol has been done, after that, if uh they change their mind halfway through the bottle, they have to pay.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. There's all there's always other way around. You can, you know, you can sell it by the glass if you if you feel as though the wine is is is completely fine. The most important thing is how the how the person feels when they when they leave, and if they're not happy with it, then okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Sean, you finally feel like you've got things back under control. The room's happy, the kitchen is now surviving on the soup. I mean the the the owners the owners have stopped interfering, Tom's happy. And then the lights flicker Sean once, twice, and then everything goes dark, and your guys run out of the kitchen.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

What do you do? Well, they say you've got to be prepared for everything in hospitality, right? It's all about your mise en place. But sometimes there are things you just can't be prepared for. Actually, luckily enough for myself, I've never I've never been in as extreme a situation as this. But I think, again, it's most important that of course you expect that your team would have built relationships with everybody in the dining room that night. I think as a good restaurateur, you have good relationships with your fellow restaurants in the local area. So that's always one play you can you you can make if your dining room is unavailable. Let's pretend though that the whole street is out for whatever reason. I think it's important that you contact every single person or you speak to every single person before they leave and make sure they come back for a dinner on. Good, man.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Good, good. Good, man. I think our hotel's gonna be a huge success, Antoine. A huge success. All right, now we turn to the future, Antoine. Please guide us through. I want to know what you think about the hospitality right now. What give you confidence despite that it's quite doom and gloom? And what concerns you about the market at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 48:39

I th I think you're quite right. As you were saying earlier, Antoine, the last the last few months has felt a little bit doom and gloom, and it is quite nice, you know, with the weather improving and the World Cup on that, you know, there's that there's that optimism around again. You know, I'm I'm encouraged by the fact that there are still, you know, so many exciting openings happening around us. But equally that is, you know, it's also concerning because of your statistics earlier. It's a bloody tough business, and you know, sometimes people go into this not realizing how how how tough it is. So I've got the same answer to two questions.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Very good. Very good. Thanks. Before we let you go, we need to fill the hot seat. Who should come next? Who should we talk to next?

SPEAKER_00 49:24

I I'm a massive fan of Will and Dan from Woodhead Restaurant Group, owner operators. I think everything they do is just top draw. Bill and Dan. Will Will Will Dan Will Lander and Dan from um Woodhead. They've got Quality Chop House, Clipstone, Portland. Quality Chop House has always been one of my my favorites. And they're just they're real gentlemen. They they just go about their business with real kind of You should invite them as a do very strong. They're very strong as a gentleman. And and also the public house group guys. I mean, Phil's awesome, James is a legend. I actually I don't know Olivier, but I'm a huge fan of of what they do.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Yeah, with them. I wonder if we should have invite the three of them more. That'd be pretty cool. If we only invite one, convince we'll have to buy some more microphones, Antoine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

And maybe one more, if I may, Else Elsa Lamoy from the 22. She's she's awesome. She's very good at what she does. I like that place.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Sean, thank you. That was fun. That was fun. That was really fun. In hospitality, a reservation guarantees you a seat, but it doesn't guarantee you a great night. That part is earned. It's earned by the people you rarely see, like Sean, the ones carrying the room when it really matters. And if you've enjoyed this, please share it with someone else in hospitality who deserves to be heard. Thank you for listening. Antoine, all that leaves me to ask Is there room for me at your restaurant? No, sorry, but there's no reservation.