"Questions are the Answer"

Redwood Fellows Erik Clemons and Caroline Tanbee Smith in conversation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Hey everybody, I'm Andrew Ferguson of Redwood Fellows. Welcome to Stories from the Grove, a podcast production of Redwood Fellows made possible thanks to the generous support of CCM. You know, our media is filled with examples of people exploiting their differences to pull us apart. This is different. Stories from the Grove is about leaders who seek to lean into their differences so they can understand each other, find common ground to strengthen Connecticut. I hope you enjoy Stories from the Grove.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Caroline Tomby Smith.

unknown 0:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Um, I want to I want to start off one again by saying I'm just happy to be with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

You know, in this really formal but informal way.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

You know, you know, we always see each other and pass by and so forth. And I was thinking in the moment about what I could start off by by saying to you, and and and it hit me. Um, you know, just the other day, uh Tuesday, um, I met with uh a Yale Divinity School professor. And I was doing this kind of last project before graduation, which is like in a week and a half for me. Yeah. And we were talking about, and I and I wanted to talk about the finality of things, right? Right, this thing called eschatology, the the end times, the study of the end times. And I can I I attributed the finality of things to you know the the losing of my wife and and and I lost my wife to COVID in 2020. And what I also wanted to talk uh, uh I wanted to attribute that the idea to what is happening in New Haven and what is happening in terms of leadership. Um and the the question that I got from a very dear friend and wise sage, um, Miss Jackie Bracey. Um, and as you know, I do, um I'm kind of creating the built environment and things well, right?

unknown 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:29

And she asked me this question. Um she said, Eric, why is it that anytime things become new, that the old has to die? And the finality of that in that question, um I wanted to kind of raise up. And I and and I again I attribute it to the loss of my wife at first in this conversation with this professor, and the questions that I had about the world, and the questions that I had about myself in the world now without my wife, and the answers that I was looking for. And she said to me, you know, I don't believe there are answers. And I said, I think you're right. So she said, if there are no answers, then what do you what do you think? I said, I found that the questions are the answer. And and I I wanted to kind of use that as a hopefully a through line, yeah, or an element of our our conversation. Because I I think that there are always these ways in which people in the world and how to use New Haven are looking for answers. And I believe the questions are the answers. The questions that they have are the answers. And the question that Miss Bracie posed to me was an answer. Um, excuse me, as it relates to the built environment. And I and I want to connect that to leadership and all that you do and all that I do about the questions that one has.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah. So so beautifully said, and and resonates um uh a thought and a question for you based off that. Um one is that uh you lifting questions makes sense because uh a lot of sense to me because I I did uh much to Andrew Stigger and prepare for this conversation and I reflected on six questions that I've always wanted to ask you.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

Really?

SPEAKER_01 4:49

And and you know, they span from things like understanding to prediction to mistakes to choice. Um so hopefully we'll get to maybe one or two of them.

SPEAKER_04 5:01

I will I will answer any question you have.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

And even if you answer for the question, and this is actually is not one of them, but a question I have for you that's just based on that really beautiful reflection you gave, like Professor, uh, your um Yo professor, is I you know, my mom has had a lot of health challenges since I was 13 years old. Um, last year she had a bone marrow transplant, and which is sort of extraordinary that we can have the ability to have new blood. Yeah. Right now she has new blood, 95% new blood. That's incredible. And so uh a poem um or a poet that I turned to last year was T. S. Elliot, who I kind of have a belief that all of T. S. Elliot's poems are kind of the same. Which maybe we're all there's a there's a micro theory that all of us are sort of, to your point about questions, pursuing one question or pursuing one idea throughout the arc of our lives, maybe approaching it from different windows. But I think T. S. Elliott's central premise in so many of the poems I read of his is that the end is the beginning. And that there's not that much different really between the end and the beginning. And so my question for you is what do you think? Does that feel true to you, or how would you piece through the difference or what is the same about big the beginning and the end of things?

SPEAKER_04 6:27

Yeah, that's a great question. And you know, I will go to my mother, very much the way you you went to your mother. And um, you know, my mom just passed, she passed in January 2026, and January, actually January 26, 2026. And she had uh very pronounced dementia as well as colon cancer. And there was a point where um my sister and I made a decision to put her, place her in home hospice, and so she lived with my sister, and we got a hospital bed and a nurse, and the nurse and my sister and myself would kind of rotate my my my sister taking the brunt of the service to my to my mom. And maybe Caroline the last two weeks of her life, um, you know, I would go there and sit by her bed and and I would read. Because most often she didn't know I was there, and if she did, she didn't know who I was. But reading makes me feel comfortable, you know, and it made me feel uh human in that moment. And so there was a moment where I I and I I spoke about this in a in a um speech I gave, where I touched her hand. I'm sorry, she touched my hand, and she knew who I was, so she said my name. And in that moment, I started thinking about the fact that my mom is now like a child, yeah, and I'm the adult. And so beginning and end, you're right. I think I think they are the same. I think we just play different roles in them in though in those moments. Right, and so the end for my mom in this life, um she became um almost infantile, and now I'm having to be the parent taking care of her, and so there was just a role reversal, but the same kind of moment in time, if you will, or windows in time, and so I I do think that, yeah, and I do think you know, going back to you talking about your mom having a a marrow transplant, yeah, and how incredible that is, and and if I if I even think more deeply about that, I think, just given the work that you're doing, it is very much what you're doing in community. It's like giving a marrow transplant to the city of New Haven, especially in the place in which you chose to serve. And in doing so, um there is those moments in time that are no different, that whether they be beginning or the end, they be they are no different, right? They are just different actors within the frame of that time. And so I I do I do agree with that. I think they are they are the same, and again, that they are just different actors, yeah being practitioners in those windows of time. Yeah, and so so yeah, I I I I agree with that. I hope I answered your question.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

You did, and uh a reflection back to you, and and then another just little kernel of a question. So, I mean, one, I'm I'm so sorry for your.

SPEAKER_04 10:22

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Um, you know, if magic is it exists, I think motherhood and the experience of having a mother is magic. Seems like more extraordinary magic than being able to move, you know, teleport from one area to the other to be loved by a mother. Um and so I'm so sorry for that. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And thank you for sharing. Question I have for you about beginning and end is when you now zoom into this moment in time, what are you at the beginning of and what are you at the end of?

SPEAKER_04 11:00

Great question. I am um I am at the beginning of thinking about life differently. You know, um living in the world, um, not by myself, but you know, um, because I have friends and I have people that love me and who who who I love. Um but seeing life differently because I see myself differently, you know, for the last six years I've been trying to figure out the world. Yeah, you know, and the mistake that I made was I wasn't trying to figure myself out. You know, I was trying to figure out this big thing and how do I navigate this thing, um, especially being a person, being a person or having a persona that I don't really believe in, but others people, others do. And so how do I how do I navigate that?

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

Like how do I how do I show up in a way that I am authentic to who I am and who I believe I'm going to be while trying to satisfy what people think of me and the expectations that people have of me. And so um, so kind of coming out of that um and and being okay with disappointing some people, right? Not being as profound as people would think I am or want me to be, right? Yeah, or or or um, or even being probably more subtly profound than people thought I was.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

That's right.

unknown 12:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

And so there's always that that that thing, right? My in my relationship to to the world, and and you know, will I will I disappoint or or will I or will I inspire?

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Because I don't know what people think of me. And so coming out of that to answer your question and not caring about that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:04

Right. Just doing the work that I've been called to do and trying to do it as excellent as possible, right? Because it is, you know, I believe leadership is not instruction, it's demonstration. And so so um, so just really focusing on that, like the demonstration of life in a way that that um that unveils a truth to people and that liberates a truth in people. Yeah, that's all I care about now. And so that's kind of the new way of, or it's always been a way of me. I just didn't have the courage to exercise it.

unknown 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

And then um one of my ending, um, ending is the uh the search for um the search for answers. I waste a lot of time um searching for answers. And um I realized you know the answers, you know, as cliche as it sounds, they are they are in us, you know, and they they are in a form of question. And so back to to how we began this conversation. So those are those are the things that you know um that are ending and and beginning to me. And they are probably more spiritual and philosophical than they are um technical. Yeah, you know. Um I I have uh I've done a lot and I've been able to be blessed to be to do a lot of things, yeah, and do them well, and do them well with evidence of them being done, you know. Um, but that is that is the smallest part of me. Yeah, that is the most insignificant part of me.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

You know, it does first of all, just I mean, so many uh just phrases you mentioned there are things to just cling on so tightly to the demonstrate that leadership is demonstration. Um that just feels so clear and so true. Um, you know, I think this you know, idea of the last six years, how you've approached your work and a sort of return to self I think is really interesting and really beautiful. And it it actually does tie into one of the six questions that I had for you, which was about understanding. Something I've heard you say is talk about the experience of feeling feeling understood or feeling not understood.

unknown 15:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

And um maybe I'll just change my my original question. Was gonna be what is something that you wish more people understood about you? But I feel the need to almost shift a bit to, although I'm interested in that question still, but almost what do you wish you understood about yourself? What do you wish you understood about you?

SPEAKER_04 16:15

Yeah. Um much I wish I understood about me. How much my presence um and my part of a relationship is as important to to someone as they are to me. You know, I I I still kind of uh that's a blind spot for me, quite frankly. Um and unless someone tells me, I don't think I usually fall into the belief, and maybe it's wishful, that my part in it doesn't matter. You know? Um and it doesn't like my part in it doesn't matter to me as much as that person matters to me. And my part in it doesn't matter to them, and it actually does. And so, and I think I I I try, I do that wishfully sometimes, not all the time, because it doesn't it it doesn't allow me to bear a certain responsibility within within the fray. Yeah you know, that um that I can come, yeah, I can bring my things, do what I have to do, and leave.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

Right?

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:59

Because what was matters is what I'm bringing, not who I am.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

That's what I was curious about. Because at first when you thank you for sharing, first of all. At first when you started sharing, I didn't I didn't quite get it. I was why would why would Eric feel that way? May I may I offer a a guess, a guess or a when I start start sharing this morning or what are you what you're sharing right now? That answer about how you want to understand you and a guess that I have, but you can wrestle with this. Please push back if this is not right, is putting myself in your shoes as someone who I could imagine in a beautiful way, but also maybe a fraught way at moments, receives a lot of requests, yeah, desires from you, from your time, yeah, for your presence, for your validation, for um again, beautiful and fraught. Absolutely. Um, I a guess I have is maybe how I would understand what what you want to understand about yourself is I could understand a reaction to people in that way, being you don't really need me. You need some, you need something else. Um, and I'll provide it. Um but the feeling of sort of authentic desire for you holistically, I could imagine being who you are, all that you have done, um, all the ways in which you are perceived. I could see I could see that being a result, but pushback of that doesn't actually feel right.

SPEAKER_04 19:41

You're absolutely right. And you said you said you sum me up better than I summed myself up. It is for the most part, yeah, and this is not pejorative in any way, yeah, um, to anyone, or even to myself, but I always kind of fall into this belief that you want this, you don't need me. Yeah, yeah, you know, and and so you're you're absolutely correct. And um, and that's sometimes that's really hard for me, yeah, to to uh to find time um to say no, um, to bring my whole self to the request. Um that's really it's I I find it difficult.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:31

Because um because in both parts I am not known. You know? And I think to your question earlier, and I'm so glad you remembered that I think being understood is for me better than being known.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

You know. And so that's why I say in the end, I just want to be understood.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah. Um a mini theory I have about feeling understood, and it wraps into a question is I've had this sort of mini theory, it's almost a metaphor of a house that you know, there there can be a lot of people in the in the foyer, but maybe we only need to have actually really two in the living room. And frankly, having two in the living room who were you feel really understood by, you feel like you can be your gofiest self, whatever self that is, that's what wealth looks like. So I've had this mini theory, I don't know if it's right, but this mini theory that you know there might be shades of understanding of of yourself by others. But if two people really know who Caroline is, I feel rich. Russell, like how does that? I could be wrong. I could imagine myself in five years say, you know what, I actually feel layered about. That or in a different way. Curious how that resonates with you or how you would tease through that yourself.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Are those two people particular people? Or they are gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I mean, maybe they could change, but I think I don't think they do. I think it's I think for me, it's my mom, my dad, and my sister, and it's Megan. Yeah. And, you know, if, you know, you know, my mom and my dad are the people, and the all four of those people are the people that I just talk their ears off. I just, I just, I take up all their time, you know, and that's not an orientation I have with most. But that's because I feel like I'm my best self. I feel like they want to hear it and and want to receive it. And we're just, we're in the living room.

unknown 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

And I feel in in some ways, that's why growth of the last year with my mom's health, you know, the fourth leg of the stool has been something where I've had to grow. Yeah. What does it mean for that fourth leg of the stool to be shakier than it has been? Um, that person in a living room who I can just be my worst self, be my best self with. Um, and there's growth in processing what that looks like.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

Let me ask you this then. Uh can I extend that a little bit? You have a very public life, right? Um, I have more of a public persona. I don't have a public life.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

Right?

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

You have a more public life. You're a public servant. Um, and something that you signed up and you do very, very, very well. How does that square with showing up for people and with people to get these things done? And then wondering, you know, knowing that those aren't the four legs of the stool, right? Those people, like, but but the work has to get done. And so so do you do you compartmentalize or how do you how do you how do you square that or work within that?

SPEAKER_01 24:14

A couple reflections, and I'm curious your version of that.

SPEAKER_04 24:17

Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

I think one is maybe uh okay, uh a theory and then a wish. A theory I have, what's immediately coming up for me is is actually a theory I have about power that could be again, could be wrong, but you know, I I remember before getting into a more um, I mean, in some ways I feel like I've always been a public servant, but before getting into um before running for office specifically in the specific kind of role um where you say yes or no, and and even though so many things are gray, you know, um, and you can't explain to every single person always across the table why you're making the decision that you do, but nonetheless you do. Um I remember a lot of people who were in capital P politics saying, you know, politics is about transaction, politics is about power, and politics is about you someone getting something and you getting something in return. And I always push back against that. I'm not, look, I could be wrong. Maybe, maybe that is what it is, but and I'm not saying that's irrelevant, and I'm not saying that doesn't, I certainly don't say that doesn't happen because it does, but I've always been of the belief that there's this undercurrent of what it means to be human that is arguably just as powerful and influential to why people make the choices they do, which is about love, it's about legacy, it's about insecurity, it's about ego. There's this emotional layer that is, I think, arguably more powerful than just point A to point B, than just transaction. That isn't necessarily make the world better. I just think it's true. I think it's true that we are led uh not just by what we get, by how it, but by how how things something changes our sense of self by how it makes us how how we think about you know love and care, um, how we think about ego and and the legacy we want to leave. And so I think why politics is the way it is is just more complicated, more robust. And it's to get back to your question, I think that makes for me public service feel life-giving, because I don't think it's about the former exclusively. I think that's relevant. But I think to when you believe it's just about that, you become that. And I think believing that humans are actually far more complicated, far more fibrous why we make decisions is is way less intuitive than point A to point B. I think makes me feel closer to more people in public service. Um and then the wish I have, this is a very silly wish, but a wish I had in public service that is is is um, and just just in the work that I do, that I really experience in the living room is silliness and goofiness and humor. I'm a I'm I'm fairly maybe similar to you. I've you know, I think a lot of the words that might be thrown around around my personality are intense um or quite quite serious. I often say I'm not very fun, you know. But I think when I'm with the in the living room, I'm you know, I'm a kind of a goober, you know, and I think a wish I have for myself, and part of part of that is because it's I'm comfortable and I feel really close to myself. And I think it's interesting. I'm 33 now, over the course of my life. Maybe this will never be true, maybe I shouldn't desire this, but is is one indication or proxy for comfort and ease and alignment is finding that goofiness come out more as I mature. Is this a curiosity I wish I have? How does that how do those reflections land like that? I love thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

Um, you know, I'm I'm very silly as well. I really am. And you know, my my four legs are my four daughters, yeah, yeah, you know, of that stool. And um, at any time I'll be very silly and just burst out in laughter and tell stories um with them. And again, to your point, you know, there's a sense of ease, there's a sense of of lack of uh being performative, yeah, yeah, or even not even performative. I've never been performative, but but just not wondering who's watching me.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:43

Um that allows me to be like my silly self, you know, and and laugh and do a little dance here and then, believe it or not, right? Um, and I I think also for me, I get a lot of critique, I get a lot of criticism, and I get a lot of praise. Yeah, and I don't deserve either. You know what I mean? Yeah, because to your point about politics, you're right. Because the what you were explaining in terms of your heart um and your kind of motive around politics is really kind of power to the people. Yeah, it's not, you know, you do this and you get this, and because you did this, I get that. But how do you do things that will affect the masses of people? And I'm not saying power to the people as a Black Panther um slogan. I mean that like power to all people. That's right. Right. That's really that's probably going back to your question, that's what I want to be most understood. Right. I do a lot of things on behalf of black communities, black people, one, because I'm black, two, because nobody else does. You know, and the the the basis by which I do this work is to find ways to bring people together because everybody has stuff. Yeah, I don't care what race you are, right? Yeah, it's just that people who are impoverished, they're not able to hide their stuff as well as people who have um who are affluent.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:28

So they have mechanisms to hide all their mess. Poor people don't.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:34

And so um, so it's not that I'm just pro-black and anti-white. I I am not. I'm not at all. Um and so that that that's one thing. Secondly, to your point, um, you know, I've been having these conversations with both my both teams, and you know, we're about to open this really large, beautiful building that sits in one of New Haven's major arteries and in a community that has no investment um in decades outside of the Kew House, right? And we're building this building and bringing service you know and utility to this community, especially, as well as the city of New Haven. And one thing that I've been talking about a lot is this building, what we are doing first is an invitation to this community. The building represents an invitation to the Dixwell community because they've allowed us to trespass on their land. And secondly, after the invitation, this is the offering we are now offering this building to Dixwell and to the world, meaning that we were called to build and maintain it, but it is not ours, it is the people's building, yeah, right? Yeah, and because the hope is that CONCAP and Concord, both organizations, will be enduring institutions, yeah, that they will live beyond us. And if that is the case, Caroline, then everything that is within this building and about the this work is not ours.

unknown 32:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:38

It is for the people because we won't be here. If I left today, I have no stake. I don't, I don't take anything. Yeah, so it's not mine. Yeah, I've just been blessed to to think think it through and and and kind of um execute um with a host of other people who work with me. And so that being said, that is kind of a political equation, in my opinion, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 33:05

Like that's to me, when you were saying that, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are politics to me. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 33:14

Yeah, so so I I think so I I I agree with you. Um my hope is that other people will agree with me and start kind of employing that that type of uh philosophy and and belief around the built environment and what could be possible in communities. That's right. You know, as we continue to build anew, that's right. A lot of the stuff that you're doing is is looking at things, which I've been so impressed with. Um looking at things and and not tearing them down, but making them better. Right? How do we how do we expand upon this? And so that's the way I looked at things well. Yeah, like this beautiful sacred ground that has had no investment, but has incredible spirit and and pride and history and stories. How do I expand on that? Yeah, how and if they allow me to join into the story of now, yeah, then how can I write with them a new story?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Yeah, you know, two things. It it does feel like a tie back to the beginning of our conversation, where you mentioned um a woman, I don't remember her name.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

Jackie Bracie.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Jackie, Miss Jackie, who said, you know, do things have to die in order to move forward? And and it sounds like your answer to her is a demonstration of leadership, and then also is a set of other questions that you just asked.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Um although I'd be curious your thoughts, but although maybe this isn't an answer, some part of me, if I'm hearing an actual answer, it's it's it's it's not a no, but it's that change requires some things to die and some things to live stronger than they were before. Do you believe that to be true? That that is the essence of change.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Absolutely. You know, sometimes things, um, although they are not there visibly, they are in here, they are living.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:29

And the new is being built from that. Yes, yeah, you know, and so before building a physical um building, a manifestation of the idea, I sat with people and heard stories and listened to histories and um listen to family legacies and all these things that that um I would I would ask questions about because I didn't know. I didn't know, but I wanted to be able to one listen and create a space where people can speak, because a lot of times I've learned when you're taking something away, yeah, sometimes people don't want it to stay, but they want to have they want to speak to it, you know, and and I realized that, you know, and I realized that because I was making mistakes. And so what I did was was I wanted to, I sat with people, not a lot, you know, there were large meetings, of course, but I would sit with people and I would just ask questions, yeah, not really um not caring more about the answer than I cared about the person speaking. Yes, yeah, because I realized, you know, we're we are taking symbols away. We are taking things that evoke emotion, buildings that evoke emotion, rooms that evoke emotion that ref that create reflection about a moment in time to people. And they they're not speaking about it. Yeah, they're yelling. Yeah, and they're they're speaking in a way um that um illicit or is it it's coming out as anger and confusion. And that's because I didn't do a good job of creating a space and place for them to just speak.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah. When you think about moving forward and you think about that idea that you know change is a little bit, a little bit of something being something uh something shedding and something growing or being augmented. What's something about the next few years that you know for sure? You know, you know based on all the listening, based on what's in here that needs to be true about this built environment, about this space. And what's something that you're like, I don't know yet, actually. I don't know the answer to that question. I'm not sure if that's the right call.

unknown 38:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:10

Um, there's a lot for that one. Um because you never know, yeah. I just never know.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:25

Um you hope, you pray, and then you keep moving, you keep executing. Um I don't know if there is an enduring love that will sustain all or that would create or liberate all that should be happening. Because a lot of times things don't happen and things aren't there that are in need or in service to people, because nobody gives a damn about the people. And the work that we endeavor to do is based on need, it's based on love. Yeah, like this the idea that I am called to do this, and I have no choice but to do this, and in doing so, there is not only a love that it that it came from, there's a love that endured and grew, um, which then created a kinship.

unknown 39:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 39:34

And so I don't I don't know if that will happen. I don't know if that will continue. I don't know. I'm not saying it won't, but it's a it's a it's a very specific like an essence of things.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Uh reflection and then a follow-up on that. I mean, it resonates so much, it makes me think about it makes me think about an area where we have found that enduring love, and I think that's LGBTQ rights. Yeah. And, you know, one of the reasons why we've gotten to this place where when I was in high school, I would never conceive of coming out uh to being able to hold hands with my fiance, Megan, down the streets of New Haven. We've made so much progress. My theory, and I don't think I'm uh nearly alone in thinking this, is um because our sons and daughters are gay, because our uncle, who we spent every Christmas with, because of that proximity, um, at least in some part, also advocacy and and and and and and fight and challenge and the audacity. But I do wonder if at its root, it's that we're proximate to each other. We loved people, someone who didn't understand me loved me and therefore changed. And and so I think about that because I think about how can that be true in area in in challenges where someone isn't your daughter, where you might never understand the experience, but nonetheless, we make the choice. And I think the a question for you would be how do we create the conditions in this city, in this city that we love, for that enduring love to sustain as long as it can?

SPEAKER_04 41:29

Yeah, one, thank you for sharing that. And and and you know, you you fought to love and you fought to be loved the way you wanted to be love, right? In the open, where it is a salient demonstration of not only who I love and who loves me, but who I am, yeah, and I fear for an enduring love because there is such a focus on survival versus love, yeah. And there's such a focus on um power in a way that has nothing to do with love.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:22

And so I think as it relates to the city, I think the city, I believe, and I don't know much, I really don't, you know. I don't know the mechanics of how things work. I know the people, and I know they're wonderful people. And I think sometimes wonderful people can be their love can be compromised because they're they need to survive. And I think that happens a lot in municipalities. I think that happens a lot in institutions, especially you know, financial institutions, yeah. Where the love that you have for people, the love that you have for community, the love that you have for family, the most purest essence of who you are becomes compromised once you enter the doors of an institution that doesn't value that. You start surviving as opposed to loving. And so we have to find a way to love or prioritize um creating spaces where everybody thrives.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

Social justice to me is not that everybody is wealthy, yeah. Right, but what is just is everyone has enough.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:57

And the ways in which we do that is we have Have to love the people who don't have enough. And the only way you can do that is you have to be proximate to the pain and suffering of the people, but also to the beauty of those people and to the victories of those people. Because what you'll realize is that they are no, as I said it earlier, they are no different than you. You know? I say it all the time. I grew up in abject poverty. I live a life of privilege now. But I lived in poverty longer than I lived in privilege. And so I understand both worlds and speak in both worlds. And the craziest thing is they're really the same. One just has more resources, and you can get stuff you want, not stuff you need.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:51

You know? And so I I I I I walk in the world with those sensibilities of poverty, not privilege.

unknown 45:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:03

You know? And so back to your question, I I think, I think it is that. I think there is this tension between love and survival, especially when you work within institutions or work within systems and frames that um that don't prioritize how one feels. Right. And you have to, one has to perform in a way that not not to perform in a way that makes things better for the world, but perform in a way that lets people know you did your job. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 45:45

And that's a that that's a I believe that's a miserable place to be. Did I answer your question?

SPEAKER_01 45:54

You did, you did, you did. Um sometimes I wish, I often wish that um in politics there was a return uh from politician to public servant, and that the role of politicians and public servants were treated far differently in our society, um uh were far less connected to some of the same underpinnings as celebrity and focused far more on um humble, quiet service. And um and and I wonder what it would take to shift some of those cultural underpinnings that not that it can't be a profession or a role that doesn't elicit pride or honor, but that is not seen in the way that it is right now, but is seen in a much more almost more like stewardship, um and which is leadership, but but seen in a different kind of way. Um I think about a mayor like Mayor Michelle Wu, who I think is, I think many ways, I mean, everyone's flawed, but I think she practices a kind of humble, quiet public service, um, uh, which I think is I think is very beautiful. What is um, maybe as we head towards the end of our conversation, what is um this is just very concrete, you know, what's a book you're reading? What are you looking forward to this summer? What do you put in your juice in the morning?

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

What's do yeah, do you have and and our books, you you mentioned books when when you were talking so beautifully about your mom. Yeah. You also could be listening to something, you also could be watching something, but what is what's something that you are bringing bringing into yourself right now?

SPEAKER_04 48:00

Um so I've been in school for the last two years. So I've been three. You know, literally. Well, you know. Um and and you know, just given where where I went to school, you you had to read. Yeah, you know, you can't go and fake it, so I had to read. Um, but I'm a reader. So I'm so excited to be able to read what I want this summer. I don't know what I'm going to read.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:32

Um, but I'm I'm excited to read just for pleasure now. Um, you know, I I love I love mint and um cucumber in my juice.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:48

You know, something about that combination that that whatever, yeah, it could be apple juice, whatever, as long as it's mint and cucumber. Um, I really like that. Um and you know, I've been really focusing on um prayer a lot, like my relationship to the divine and locating the divine in myself and locating the divine in the built environment um allows me to um to show up with a a deeper intention, more deeper than I've ever had. And I, you know, like you, you know, I I am I'm intense about what I've been called to do. You know, I don't I don't play with that. Yeah, I don't I don't I don't play with people's lives, I don't play with people's trust in me, right? Because people trust you now, you know, they do. Um and they have an expectation of you that maybe you won't deliver and maybe you won't change things, yeah, but you sure will address them. Yeah, and so um, and then also thinking about uh used the word earlier, power. Yeah, and what does that mean when you have it? What does it mean when when I have it and didn't look for it, right? It wasn't this isn't about the accumulation of power for me or even influence, and so and I think you know, having power and people and having influence with people has everything to do with their values. Yeah, you know, yeah, and how they and the way people see me is has everything to do with how what they value. And so I I've been thinking about that as well. You know, what does all that mean? And you know, what am I responsible for? You know, and that's why prayer is really important to me because it it grounds me, centers me into in in what matters in the world and what matters in in me. Um, so I'm I'm I'm I'm ingesting all of those things.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Beautifully said. Thank you. One you know, one your final sort of reflection on that, and and one last micro question under that is um I really um the the the way you talked about trust resonates a lot, and I often think about how there's only two things in the world you truly can only earn. There's no shortcutting, um, and that's laughter, and that's trust. I love that. And you can't, I mean I'm sure people fake laughter, but ultimately deep laughter from the belly, yeah, um, trust down to the marrow. You can't you can't shortcut that. That's right. And uh, and nor do we want it to be shortcutted. That's right. And um, and I think it's one of the most tremendous feelings of the world to have to have been worthy of trust. And then my micro question for you is uh, you know, we didn't even talk about div school, not much, but is there um is there a passage or is there a paper that you read in these last two years?

SPEAKER_02 52:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

That just you're not gonna forget that. It's gonna be 30 years from now. And you're like, I'm I didn't forget that that I read.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

Oh man, that's a good question. Yeah. Um so the passage is one that I I want to underscore and highlight because it's uh probably my favorite little line um that Apostle Paul writes in his letter to the Ephesian church. And he just says this small line, it's a it's a larger p larger um, of course, discourse, but he says that in the dispensation of the fullness of time, that little beautiful phrasing the dispensation of the fullness of time, that when time to your point earlier, that the fullness, when the fullness of time happens, the end, right? Um but he goes on to say he he talks about the the the returning of Christ. But for those who who don't believe, right, it still um bears witness to the dispensation of the fullness of time. That is a so beautiful because that will happen. Yeah, but it doesn't matter what you believe or not, happens after that. And so I I work from that. Yeah, I work from that that that phrasing, right? The full the dispensation of the fullness of time.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

The the visceral feeling of the end or of life becoming more full, or that end being where time is at its most full, just the visceral feeling of that is um, yeah, like life distended, you know, through time is just a oh that's beautiful. And I think that's um I think talking about the ending is a beautiful way of hearkening back to the beginning. I think is a beautiful way to end our conversation.

SPEAKER_04 54:43

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

Thank you for that. Thank you, Sue.

SPEAKER_04 54:47

Thank you, great.