Redwood Fellows: Stories from the Grove
Redwood Fellows: Stories from the Grove is a podcast series that features Fellows in conversation with one another, creating space for authentic storytelling and the exchange of leadership insights. These are genuine conversations that reveal how Fellows lead with conviction and courage.
Redwood Fellows: Stories from the Grove
"The Defining Event"
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Redwood Fellows Ben Florsheim and Mike Rell in conversation.
So they can understand each other find common ground industry in Connecticut. I hope you enjoy the stories from the Grove.
SPEAKER_02Well, good to be with you. Uh Mike and I'm uh Ben Florsheim, um uh former mayor of the city of Middletown. I'm uh part of Grove Three for Redwood. Uh so I'm still just getting started in this whole process, but it's great to be with you.
SPEAKER_01Great to be with you, Ben. Uh Mike Rell, former mayor of Weathersfield, uh, Grove two of Redwood. And um I think you and I both were elected November of 2019 together. So we started out our ambitions of our city and in the town of Weathersfield at the time. Um I don't know about you, but the stretch between being elected in November to what was it about March 13th or so? Yep. Yep. I had a lot of plans. I'm sure you did. Friday the 13th, I believe. Yes. Friday the 13th. Um, you know, I'm uh happy to listen to some of your plans when you you first got in uh uh the mayor's office, but uh I was looking at economic development. We had a couple new restaurants planned. Um there was a uh a nursing home that had closed up and developers were coming in. So I was meeting with folks and and had this ambitious plan for about three months. And then COVID hit, and you and I can probably share some of our war stories. Um but then we uh you and I both pivoted uh at that point from um looking forward on great ideas to day-to-day, even hour to hour, how we were going to handle um, you know, COVID and and being the head of the city and the head of the town. Um I mean that's a a great way to, I guess, where we started our uh political careers, maybe we can start the podcast that way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think it it was it was certainly um the the defining event um of that period. And and I think still uh uh uh in terms of uh the conversations that we're having um all over the state right now, it it it continues to be the defining event um that we're sort of living in the in the wake of. And uh and yes, that that period, that snapshot of time between November and March, um, a whole uh could could write you know a whole book about that period, right? And then and then it becomes a completely different, a completely different story. And I um I imagine you probably had similar conversations, um, but uh as in the week of transition between the election and my taking office, I sat down with my uh the outgoing mayor, Dan Drew, uh my pre predecessor. And my first and central question for him um was what do you do in the in case of an emergency? Oh wow. Um how do you how do you approach handling um crises? Um and what I had in mind, and he went out of the office and came back with the emergency management plan in this gigantic red binder and says, here is the plan for everything. Um of course we're thinking about um anything from blizzards, you know, to other types of um uh uh weather events uh to uh shootings as an unfortunate uh uh reality that we have to plan for, uh and what you know, terrorist attacks at a local or a or a national scale. Um there was there was something in there about pandemics. There was there was something in there about public health, but you're I was coming into office thinking about the first snowstorm. I was coming into office thinking about uh the the river potentially flooding. Um, a lot of weather sort of out of our control related events. Um, what do we do in in those circumstances? And uh certainly was not thinking about a public health crisis um being that that defining emergency, nor was I anticipating obviously anything that got to the scale that it that it got to. Um and uh it it obviously it transformed the way that we did business in in the city. Um it was also uh a real wake-up call for me, for a lot of people, of the essential nature, about the essential nature of the services that municipalities deliver. And and that that uh when the term essential worker or essential industry became invented, that applied to basically everybody in city government. Um you see the extent to which things like our water and sewer treatment systems, um our uh uh road maintenance crews, the certainly the police and fire departments they can't take, they can't be off, right? And in many ways, they are the frontline responders too to a lot of what's going on. And um that also really highlighted, you know, I I was thinking to myself, what cris you know, in a crisis I'm gonna be talking to the fire, the fire chief if it's a if it's a fire emergency or uh you know an emergency on the river, I'm gonna be talking to the police chief, I'm gonna be talking to um emergency management. Did not think I was gonna be talking that much to the health department director, right? Right. Um or that uh that department and their work was gonna be so out front. Uh but it for me, I think, really clarified the mission in a lot of ways that we are here to deliver the essential services first and foremost. And a lot of vision that can be built upon that, but you've got to be able to do that first and foremost.
SPEAKER_01And you you mentioned, you know, the fire chiefs and and and police chiefs. We um in a very similar way um uh it sat down, we got everybody together, um, came up with, you know, uh the the most recent plan that we could get up come up with because obviously it was evolving. Um but then and I don't know if you saw this in Middletown, but in Weathersfield, we had officers who had come into contact with somebody who had COVID. And they, you know, I forget what it was, mandatory quarantine of five days or something at that time early on. And I was thinking in, you know, first or second one that that had to be off duty and quarantined. And then we got to, you know, 10 officers at one point. And, you know, at what point is it going to be that word gets out that, you know, first responders and public safety are not available? And, you know, obviously there are folks who rely on them and need them, but there are others who might be thinking, oh, wait a second, this is an opportunity without the police around that we could, you know, mayhem or or not not quite riots on the streets, but you know, crimes that people would never have considered may start to percolate with the limited um patrols that we had. Yeah. Fortunately, we didn't see any of that. Um, we were quickly able to work with the staff that we had, um, keep people out on the roads longer. Um, but you're right. I mean, it it was um, you know, the basic services that government provides, and on the local level, it's seen a lot more than you know, state and obviously federal. So those local residents were relying on us um to make sure that the essential services were getting done. Um in my role, uh, Weathersfield is a uh volunteer mayor. Um it's we were, you know, one of a handful of towns that still have a town manager. So the town manager and I were kind of monitoring everything, but when the general public hears that, oh, you're the mayor, they think that you're the buck stops at at your desk when I have to work with um uh the first or the the town manager. But my full-time role at the time, and it still is, is you know, I'm a partner in a lobbying firm, and we were lobbying the legislature at that time. They were in session, and we got, you know, uh the speaker had called staff, his staff and and lobbyists in and said, Oh, this is only going to be two weeks. Yeah. Well, we'll do a deep clean and everybody goes back to work. Ultimately, um, you know, the the legislature shut down for the 2020 legislative session, but our clients, uh, our firm's clients had to deal with, you know, moving forward throughout it. We we've got um Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference, CIAC. And, you know, there were uh parents and and students upset that the um spring season basketball. That was a huge, huge debate. Huge debate. Yeah, I remember that vividly. And see Connecticut's uh CIAC was one of the first to say we're canceling the season from you know uh uh and it was right in the middle of playoffs, and then they canceled um baseball and and everything that was starting in the spring, and ultimately they had to cancel football in the fall. You want to hear an angry parent on the phone is when football, uh high school football is canceled. But I was hearing it from the public in Weathersfield as the mayor, but also my client, the CIAC, state level, yeah was hearing it. And we were working, you know, the governor at the time, legislators at the time were you know working with us, executive orders were coming out, and we were reading those. Um but we had, you know, we still have the wineries, and they serve not only wine, but they serve food and and public comes in. And there was a difficult period of, you know, what is a winery? Is it a bar or is it a restaurant? You know, do we have to close them down? Do they have to be outside? So it was it was a time when I guess you know the public the public was learning how to deal and what to deal with. Yeah. We were too as as it was going on. Fortunately, you know, like you said, it, you know, we're still dealing with some of the repercussions of that, but it's it's been five or six years of you know, transitioning from that and then moving forward. Um and I, you know, I think uh a lot of the help from both the federal and state government and and our experiences can prepare us, hopefully not for anything as as large as COVID. But like you said, you know, flooding of rivers or fires or snowstorms, anything that may be coming down the pike for us here in Connecticut, I think uh uh it was a good experience to get us going.
SPEAKER_02I I I think and and people would comment to me like, oh my God, you couldn't have picked a worse time to start, basically. Not that we would have had any idea going in. Um but there was also, I mean, uh the way that I thought it, I mean, the circumstances were kind of what they were. Um, but I would talk to people who had been in the role for longer, um, who I think had a hard time adjusting to suddenly this was a the the the role was this very public-facing role. Um, and and we should talk about uh town manager versus you know all the different setups uh that that that exist in the in the state and around the country, because I think that there's a lot of interesting. I I would be curious about your experience um in in the town manager system. Uh and you know, I think that there's pros and cons, certainly, to both approaches. But um but all of a sudden we were all we all government had to focus on one thing, essentially. We had to keep doing everything else, which is I guess the point we were talking about earlier. Um but all of a sudden, this had to be the priority focus and the like the granularity, the detail of the types of decisions that we were having to make, usually those are where you think of it being a little bit of a higher level, bigger picture um decision making that the that the governor or the or the mayor or the council or legislature are involved in. But um, making these calls about what is safe in terms of school athletics, what is safe in terms of barbershops and nail salons, what is safe in terms of uh restaurants and grocery stores. Uh it's it's not uh it's not usually what we're cut out best to be doing. Um I think that we there's a the the lessons to be learned is that there was a lot of preparedness things that that worked, and there were a lot of things that we were clearly not prepared for as a community, as a state, um, as a country. But it was it was a time when I think of of really enhanced actually cooperation between state and local levels of government and and between and between local governments as as well. I think that the urgency of the crisis um in some places it caused, you know, uh it caused, I think, further division. So depending on what the leadership looked like, and I think depending on just the circumstances of the community, um, a crisis is is uh uh something that frequently um makes uh a divided situation even worse. Um and certainly this one, this pandemic had its um politicized politicized elements of it, there were um elements of it that were um highly emotional, and of course, a lot of people were dying and and watching their loved ones get sick and and possibly die. And so the it was an extraordinary crisis. And uh and and that can have the effect of pushing people apart, and it can also have the effect of getting people together saying we have to, hey, the house is on fire, we gotta, we gotta get the get the tanker truck over there and put the fire out.
SPEAKER_01And I think, you know, you and I, you know, we we probably govern the similar way where it's bringing folks together rather than dividing. Um for us, it was you know, working with you know, the city of Hartford, uh, which is kind of like you know for your area, Middletown may be the biggest town or city in your geographic area. For us, it's Hartford. So it was calls with um, you know, the mayor at the time, his staff, our regional health district where we had um health care representatives from you know the the four or five towns surrounding Weathersfield, as well as, you know, uh I don't know if you were on those, but they were the the weekly calls. Yes. The governor was having them, DECD, you know, it all depended on, you know, uh it was almost daily. It was either, you know, we were on with the governor and his office and his team, uh, we were on with Department of Public Health and then DECD. So it was kind of a a trifecta of you know, getting businesses and helping them out, public health, you know, obviously with the the the public, and then uh the governor's office kind of directing all of it together. But we survived it. We we served more terms, and then, you know, happily earlier we said, you know, we were retired from um municipal government. But um, you know, I'm I'm sure if like you uh or like me and and you are probably the same, you're still keeping an eye on things and what's going on in Middletown, I I suggest. I suspect. Certainly.
SPEAKER_02Um yes, we're in we're in budget season right now, just wrapping it up in many ways uh around in the state and uh in localities. And I am uh finding myself very grateful not to be when this comes out, we'll we'll have everything will have been adopted. But as we're recording this, we're we're the state has just adopted the state budget and um municipalities are coming up on that on that deadline. And um as it as is the case every year, there has been a wait and see at the local level what's gonna happen with state funding for education. Um what is going are we gonna be in a position as we have been in Middletown, I think probably in Weathersfield, like many other municipalities, like most of them, um where essentially we're we're delivering flat funding to a lot of our departments and to our school districts every year. Um and uh we're also trying to make sure that and and there's been some good, there's been some really good investment um in in school construction and things like that. And this year I think we got a budget uh that that was a lot more positive for municipalities than we posted in a long time. But um but even that even that being the case, the wait and see uh is one of the many reasons I'm grateful not to be um at the center of that of that process this time around.
SPEAKER_01Um Well, we were given a bone, I think, early on in in the during the pandemic. I uh our deadline for a budget in Weathersfield, I think, is around May 15th. Yeah, I just do. I think they gave us all the way out until July 1. Yes, that's right. So um that helped at the time. But no, I totally agree. I I don't know if you looked at them at the same light that I looked at them, but CCM actually would be the one providing the municipal runs. We would always hear it. What are the municipal runs in the budget? And you would want to get that number as quick as possible to then be able to set your budget. Um and yeah, this year I think uh it was good that the legislature, it's a short session, and the legislature wrapped up uh the budget earlier than they typically do. Obviously, they've sometimes gone into special session and you're you're you're waiting for those numbers and you gotta put a budget together. Yep. Um but this year, you know, they got it done pretty early. And uh as you said, you know, there is additional funding for um municipal relief as well as education relief coming down the pike. So I mean, I I think at least, you know, I would hope that most municipalities look at that and say, hey, this is great. You know, we can balance our budget, we can maybe look at some of the projects that we had been putting off to the to the side for the last couple of years and maybe fund those. Um but just like the COVID money, this may be a one-time you know shot in the arm, but it's it's not going to be there forever. And and we gotta, you know, make sure our budgets stay, you know, don't count on that every year. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_02And I think that that but uh it's it's speaks to the continued need in in in my opinion. And this is um there's a lot of obviously bipartisan agreement uh uh across municipalities on this that um those the funding formulas, the structures need to need to change because it was great. I mean, it was true that the COVID money, the ARPA, the American Recovery Plan Act, and and all the associated legislations, uh legislation was uh an extraordinary um uh deviation from what we were used to seeing from uh either the state or federal level in terms of just direct funding for municipalities to um have a lot of discretion over what types of projects as long as that they were oriented towards public health or community development. Um, as we could use that to to redo sidewalks, to build new parks, um, to redo to make water and sewer um improvements, um, to uh help fund our youth services uh program, all of which, among other things, we did. But those are those are those those are the those were those projects sitting on the wish list for all those years, right? Exactly. Uh things that we knew we needed to do but but couldn't afford to uh without dramatically raising raising taxes or reducing services that were even more essential somewhere else. Um so it was great to be able to get a lot of those projects done, just as it is great this year to have a little bit more support. But uh certainly when that money uh and I know that this was especially hard on a lot of school districts, when that money uh uh went away at the federal level, uh it's it's you get used to it very quickly. And uh and then you have to make it.
SPEAKER_01Ongoing expenditures, you you gotta make sure that if you are gonna hire staff that you realize that this money is here today, where is it gonna come from tomorrow? Um and and it is that's always a juggle. Even even today without the um ARPA funding coming in, it's you know, I always said the wish list is much longer than the need list. And, you know, where can we fit some of those wishes into the need and can we pay for it? And uh yeah, it it's tough being, you know, the the sometimes the voice of reason as the mayor, because you know, you've got obviously people on both sides of any issue, you know, um coming at you. And it's like you want to say yes to both of them, but um eventually it's like, okay, now we as a council, you've got to bring your council members in together and say, okay, how are we gonna do this? What are the priorities? What can we do? Um but uh I'm glad, you know, uh that after you know the the year or two that we dealt with COVID, that we kind of got Middletown back on track, Weathersfield back on track. Um but I guess uh you know, we're we're two has-bens, if you will. Uh retirees from the the municipal uh level. But uh um good to catch up with you. You know, what have you been doing since uh being mayor?
SPEAKER_02So I am uh in in also I'm thinking of it as remaining in in public service in a sense, and and it's not something that I um really thought that I would find myself doing um until I was in this job, in the job of mayor, and and um seeing and working with uh our our school district and sort of what was going on largely due to largely in the wake of the pandemic, as we've just been talking about. Um I am I am becoming a school teacher. I am um I am in I am in school um and uh I've at the UConn uh NIAG, uh it's called the Teacher Certification Program for College. College graduates. I'll I'm I'm as we're recording this, I'm I'm I'm still uh taking some um other coursework and and that program will be starting um in the summer. So I'm gonna have a very busy summer. I will by the time this comes out, um I will I will be very much in the thick of it. Um but uh I am I'm gonna be uh getting a my graduate degree uh and my certification to become a a school teacher here in Connecticut. My my goal is to be in a middle school or a high school, and the big challenge that I have to figure out is which is gonna be the the better fit. But um I uh my my my hope and I uh part of the reason I never would have um never really and I uh my my my dad uh is a professor, uh my mom um was an academic. Um I come from a uh kind of over-educated family in a lot of ways, uh, in the sense that I grew up on a college campus, and um and uh education defined a lot of my path uh up until the point that I graduated from from college, and that was when I was getting involved in politics. By that time, I was I was so convinced I was just done with school, and I was not interested in in being in a classroom anymore. Um and uh I then found myself uh thinking as uh as I was serving as mayor, uh I would I would visit schools um for all sorts of reasons, uh go to graduations, um uh I would go to read across America, um uh was uh worked, you know, worked with our board, with our superintendents. He had a couple who different uh couple different folks who served in in that role. Um and I found myself realizing that I I saw myself back there and uh that I was I was interested in having had a uh an interesting life in politics and having had an interesting life um uh leading a municipality uh that there were where I had nothing I felt like I could impart to a learner um before. I found myself thinking I think that this is the the next step in in my public service is is trying to um bring some of the lessons back to um another generation. Um as well as just um having a I I I think something that surprised me uh uh when I was with young people, um, and this was from you know kindergartners up to teenagers, you know, early 20s. Um and I was relatively young when when I took office, but um that is it is uh it's it's a voice that is those are the voices um that are going to be most honest with you. That's what I kind of found is that when you are kids say the darndest thing. Exactly. Um and uh when you have the title and when you have the office, um it it it uh very quickly you start to feel like and and not in in any kind of nefarious way necessarily, but everyone who talks to you has an angle. Oh, yeah. And everyone who talks to you is looking for something. And everyone, you know, there's-you're not getting the full story, you're getting a better version of the truth, or you're getting a more urgent version of the truth, um, but you're not necessarily getting the whole truth, and you're not even really getting necessarily the whole person that you're talking to, um, because they don't see you necessarily as and this is the great thing about local government and the challenging thing is that you do really get to know people, um, but there's still that separation that comes with the role. And and and kids are if they're gonna try if they're gonna BS you, they're not as good at it yet. So you can kind of you can kind of work with that. But usually they're not gonna try to BS you in any way. Usually they will be very straightforward with you. Um and they will ask questions that you're I don't know about teenagers.
SPEAKER_01I've got two at the house right now. And I think it's probably different when they're in your house. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Pretty good at BSing their dad every once in a while. Aaron Powell Fair enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe No, that that's actually great to hear. I I didn't know that. And uh and I'm gonna follow up after um after this uh is recorded. Yeah. I actually went to college to become a social studies teacher. Oh fantastic. Well, we'll have a lot to we'll have a lot to talk about. Trevor Burrus, Jr. So um and I'll put a plug out to um Brookfield High my junior year. I had Mr. Chambervitch. He was the tweed jacket with the leather elbow pads, you know, social studies teacher. And I really got hooked on wanting to be a teacher. Uh four years of college, and uh I came out of college and um I said, I don't have the time, I don't want to go back to college, I don't want to go back to school, I needed to get a certification, needed to get the master's. So I said, like many people do, I'll put that off. Yeah. And then I got bit by the political bug. Um, you know, as you talked about your parents, uh, you know, my mom was in in state government for 20 some odd years. My father was an airline pilot. Oh, wait. And it was like, I wanted to be the teacher. I wanted to mold the minds of those that could be molded, you know, the as you said, the the younger kids. Somebody had said, you didn't want to be a a pilot like your dad. I said, no, you know, that's too nervous of a job. You know, you're always, you know, what's going to happen? Is the plane gonna stall, or we're not gonna be able to land? You know, come to find out being in politics that, you know, you're actually more nervous in politics. It's probably a lot like flying a plane, except there's more there's more fail-safes on the plane. Trevor Burrus, Jr. More fail-safes-safes, then you can also put it on autopilot. Right, right. And kind of catch your breath. Yep. When you're in politics, you really can't do that. And uh, you know, going back 30 some odd years, I wish I had said, oh, you know what? I'll become an airline pilot and uh and served like my father had done. Instead, I, you know, immediately out of college got uh a position in Harvard working at the legislative office building, stayed there for 20 years inside the legislative office building, and then the last 10 years working in government, uh in lobbying government. And um, I mean, it still is all connected, you know. It's uh, you know, either serving as a mayor, working in public service for the state, or lobbying for your clients to the state. Um, so that's it is kind of the world that I grew up in, at least on from my mother's side. And uh um it's kind of kept me in that direction. But there are times that I talk to folks that are um up in in Harvard who are adjunct professors right now. And they have either some have gone and taken the um quicker way to get your certification. I forget the actual term is yeah, the alternative route to certification. Alternative route to certification. And they keep coming back to me and saying, Mike, you gotta do it. You know, if you still have a passion for teaching, you know, your wealth of knowledge from 30 some odd years, you could teach a civics class, you could teach American history, American government. Um, some have even asked me to come to their universities and and and talk. Um, I was just up at an uh event in Hartford last week, and somebody was talking to me about kid mayor or kid governor, and I'd said, Oh, we do something similar in in Weathersfield. Um and he kind of pulled me aside and he goes, Hey, would you ever want to talk to my class? I said, sure. You know, I just like you, you know, you you you see these kids that you don't get any BS from, like you said. Sure, I'd love to get so we've been, you know, hopefully contacting each other over the summer, so sometime in the fall while campaigns are are going on and everybody's kind of like looking at, you know, some of national, some on the the state's uh side of uh of politics to kind of get these kids that are, you know, this would be for for high school, you know, the 13 to 16, 18-year-olds, where maybe we can hear from them and they can hear from me. But more importantly, I would like to hear from them what their thoughts are uh on this. So, you know, it's great that that you're going that route. Um I've got a couple more years on you, but uh at some point, you know, that could be something to for for what I have a passion for uh in politics and teaching that uh maybe when I retire from the current gig going out to uh um be a a professor or go through that alternative route to uh to teach.
SPEAKER_02We're gonna have to we'll have a we'll have certainly a lot to talk about. And I uh I do I think that there's a um and I have a ton of respect uh for and uh you know my my wife is one of them, uh teaches second grade uh and uh has always you know long known that that was gonna be her career and and and planned that through college and went into went into her master's program and has been has been teaching ever since. And um I there's there's also this um seems to be a crying need, especially at the at the uh higher grade levels for people coming out of professional and and leadership in particular roles uh in uh in in schools. And I think uh I'm also daunted by the whole thing because education, just like everything else, is changing in such dramatic and unpredictable ways right now. Um but also that's part of what my my my interest in history and and and social studies is this question of why how did everything get to be the way what what what is going on here exactly? How did it get to be the way that it is? Um, history does repeat itself. Indeed. Um and and you can you can see when when you start to examine and the the big question that I think is um one it's the question for um the youngest generation always to be revisiting um is what do I see wrong with the world? Um and what are the problems I see? Um what are the challenges that I face? And how did they get this way is the is the I think the most important next question to ask. How did it come to be this way uh is how you get to the answer of how you address it, how you how you solve it. Um and the uh the the more that people understand, uh this is what got me interested in in government and politics, is that this is a world that has been built by by people. Um and that we all have a role in a um ostensibly self-governed society to govern ourselves responsibly. Right. Um and that is a uh a very challenging message for every generation, I think, to learn how to teach the next generation because it's it's always the same, it's always the same one, but it's it's it's we're communicating it in in different ways. Um now we've got of we're we've got the 250th anniversary, right? Lots of civics education uh uh focus on that going on. Um but I think with you know with any anniversary of that magnitude, um and I loved I was watching the uh King's speech to Congress uh and he said, you know, I under you know I'm here as part of we're celebrating your 250th anniversary of independence, as we say uh in the United Kingdom just the other day. Yeah. Um it's still a it's a we're a very young country. But I was just gonna say that. It's it's a big it's an it's a it's an occasion to sort of look at um how do we get to to where we are for good, bad, and ugly, um, and and what kind of country do we want to continue to be.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus Yeah, I was uh you know, you that's a perfect analogy with the you know uh the the king's uh comments because you know they are centuries uh beyond our 250 years. In fact, last night I was watching a program on something about universal mysteries or something on History Channel, and they were talking about these statues that were found, 40-ton statues in Mexico, that they were carbon dating around, and they were dating them 1400 to 1800 years ago. Yeah. And here we are talking about Americans' history of 250 years. I mean, it's just a little blip. Yeah. But in that time, we are, you know, a government that many countries emulate and and want to to you know thrive in their own countries the way America does. And it is, you know, it's that idea of being able to teach these kids like where were we? And uh everybody knows George Washington was our first president, but how did he get there? Yeah, what did he do after? What did his successors do? And then you go and more and more to, you know, to present day. Um but um you're you know, you you're talking about how how these kids, you know, learn and and through the experiences that others may be able to provide for them too. You know, it it was great years ago that you would be able to get a former shop employee from, you know, UTC or Sikorsky to to come into school and teach these kids um, you know, shop class, as we called it back then. Um we're not seeing so much of that anymore. There are there are some, but those that come from the financial world and they've you know had a career, a successful career in that and being able to bring that because I know the legislature has just um uh instituted financial literacy for these students to to learn. Um but I think we also have to, as you were saying, about civics and and American history, let's talk about that to our kids and and you know, because they are the future of you know democracy. And if this blip of 250 years is going to succeed beyond our years, that this next generation and the generations that follow are going to be the ones that need to continue that experiment of democracy for right now, for sure. Yep.
SPEAKER_02I mean I I I wanted to come back to the town manager um question a lot. I was reminded of it because you were talking in in talking about American history and the Constitution. I was uh uh and and Washington in particular, who who, yeah, he's this he's this revered figure, but he's kind of an enigma to to most people. And and uh when you I was and I'm probably uh tipping. I just watched my I just watched the HBO miniseries on John Adams, which is outstanding. Paul Giamani plays him and Laura Linney as as Abigail. Uh it's been out for years, but I I finally got around to watching it. And um the one of the and you and you mentioned how many you know modern democracies have have modeled themselves after the United States government and and have written constitutions modeled after our own. Um but that one of the things that is is kind of unusual in our system is um that the it and this is uh in the Constitution, that the the compromise that represents the presidency itself, where it's collapsed the head of state and the head of government into one role. Um whereas King Charles is head of state, but you have a prime minister who's serving as head of government, and that's very common um all over the world. And I it it creates in and I'm the analogy that I'm drawing is um that's very challeng- it represents something that was very challenging for me, um, and I think is very challenging at the local level as well. Where in Middletown we have a strong mayor form of government where we are the elected mayor and we are also the CEO of the municipal corporation. Um that I I often found myself thinking, I think I could I uh you know I think I would be pretty good at doing this over here, and I think I could be pretty good at doing this over here. And doing both at once is where there uh introduces this is true at the presidential level, I think it's true at the municipal level, an enormous tension. Uh, you were touching on it a little bit too, just in terms of people expecting you to be the guy who could get um anything done. And uh uh you still can't get anything done when you're a strong mayor. Um but people expect that all the more. Um and you are both the and we were actually talking a little bit about this dynamic in my last Redwood retreat uh with uh Dr. Paul Freeman, who's the superintendent in Guilford, um, was talking about how that role has become more and more um public-facing, more and more politicized, um, and also still is responsible for running a school. Day-to-day operations. Um and obviously, you know, you also had you're you're balancing state government work on in your on your professional career, but I'm curious about your your experience with the town manager system because I know the grass is is always greener on the other side.
SPEAKER_01Uh Weathersfield is is only a handful of towns, I you know, 10 or 12 towns that still have the town manager form of government. You know, and and Connecticut being one of the first 13 colonies, Connecticut kind of, you know, what's the the saying, you know, land of steady habits here in Connecticut. You know, if you're gonna break from the town manager form of government, which I think there were more of years ago, some of the public didn't want it. They would go out to referendum and ask that question. And I think Harvard was one of the most recent cities to go from deviate from a town manager to a strong, right, strong mayor. Um, you know, at the time it was um, you know, everybody thought mayor Mike uh Peters of Hartford. Everybody knew him as Mayor Mike. He had the restaurant mayor Mike. He was the guy that was at the the first pitch of Little League to you know late nights at at the uh city council meetings. Um but behind the scenes the CEO, the the the town manager kind of did the operation. Yeah. He was the face of it. Um but not a lot of people you know thought that of the mayor at the time. You know, if they needed something done, they would call him and uh oh, but it'll get done. I I called you know, Mayor Mike. It'll it'll get done. Yeah. Um in my case, very similar. You know, the the general public, I mean, the general public doesn't really know how the you know functions of government and the nuances of town manager form or or strong mayor form, or even the legislature, the senator. I've got I've got folks calling me and they say, uh, you know, can't you just reach out to, you know, Congressman Lesser? Yeah, right. Oh, you mean either it's mayor lesser or it's senator. Well, that's right. I just picked Lesser off the top of my head. Well, he wants to share him. We share him as a state senator, so we're we're right now. Where you you really the public doesn't know it uh if it's the mayor they should be contacting, the state senator, or they want to contact their U.S. Senator. And and you know, who do we we talk to? So when you're you're dealing with the public that may be naive on how and who you are and and how government works, they say, oh, well, you're the mayor, and then you call the shots. You call the shots. And but it was a a relationship that we had with uh each other, and and the current mayor has it with the the current town manager. And for years it's always been a working relationship between the two, where you know, the the town manager has his or her role to be able to, you know, deal with the staff within town hall and you know, throughout various buildings, communicate with that superintendent, uh, you know, all the districts have. Um but their role is also to um keep the council in check and uh work with the council. And you know, there's never a unilateral, okay, because I am the mayor and I and we are the council, this is how we're gonna do it, um, Mr. or Mrs. Town Manager. It's got it's gotta be that working relationship. And if not, you know, you you're constantly butting heads. Where in some towns that has happened. And the fallout is that the public suffers in it's almost a stalemate in government where you've got folks that disagree with each other, almost like Republican and Democrat, on the council or in Congress, or in the White House and Congress. It's it's that, you know, partisan politics gets in the way of things. But it becomes very personal, too. Oh, and on the local level, yeah. I mean, you know everybody. You your kids are on the same ball field as as other kids, and you know the parents personally. Right. They're your neighborhood.
SPEAKER_02It's not just another person on TV, you know, down the hall in the Capitol. It's just they could be it's it's it's and it's an unfortunate development. It helps in campaigns, though. It does. When you know the neighborhood, that's very true.
SPEAKER_01That's very true. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah. It could hurt or help you. It all depends on on how well you you treat the public. But it's I always said it like this. It's like, you listen, I'm not gonna get into a partisan fight with p folks because tomorrow tonight we may be bittering, uh bitter enemies and bickering back and forth. But you know what? Tomorrow I'm gonna be seeing you on your sidelines.
SPEAKER_02Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I always compl I completely think of it in exactly the same way. And I I am always amazed that people are uh operate differently. You know, they think that it's it's better to operate a different way. Um and uh but I think you know, again, that's that's uh among the among the changes, and it's and it's again it's one of the reasons why I think it's interesting to contemplate the different ways that the towns approach the the roles. And there almost is a built-in into the and this was less true as I was talking about earlier. This was less true when there was an emergency that we all had to deal with together in the form of the pandemic. But as a as a matter of course, there is discord between mayors and city councils. There's discord between city government and boards of education. There's discord between municipal government and state government. And it's just become I mean ultimately the reason that we have politics is because everybody has this competing priorities and limited number of resources. And we all have to sort of, again, in a self-governed society, we have to figure that out somehow. And there is this, it's I think that when the less that the public is hearing about what local government is doing, in some ways the better. Like if you're not if it's not in the news, that means it's going well. But that's a paradox, you know, sort of a double-edged sword, because um if people are not engaged or are checked out, um then it's it's it's very difficult to have any momentum to any kind of good works being done.
SPEAKER_01Um and uh I think a lot of the work that I have done and and I'm sure you had done, you you work with the counselors, uh, town staff, city staff to be able to, you know, keep local government going. And a lot of that is not seen in by the eye of the public. It's it's the work that actually keeps government going and services going. But it's the and we're we're seeing it more and more now, is the upfront uh in your face on TV, captured on cell phone video. Social media is going nuts, blowing things up, and it's as my kids would say, I I forget the term, but uh it's going viral. Yeah, right, right. You say something uh and you get caught on camera saying it, or there is a potential vote that's going on where it's either a cut in this, or it it's got two different sides and and it's turned bitter. And then it explodes from behind the scenes negotiating that we do as elected officials with staff or with your other counterparts on the council to in your face out front, you know, you can't get away from social media because you're you know, whatever you said or somebody said it is being blasted out there. And folks are, as you were talking about, you know, they may not be that engaged. So now they weren't at the council meeting. They didn't see what was going on, but now they are the keyboard warriors to to go out there and paint a picture that really isn't true. Or if it is true, blow it up so much that you get more attention to it. And now not only are you defending your actions that you did on the council or whatever, but now you're you're spending time kind of on social media looking at those and kind of checking out what they're saying. Yeah. And trying to defend your record on that. Yeah. And um, you know, that's one thing, you know, I'm actually working on um with uh when my mom had retired from state government, she created the RHEL Center at the University of Harvard. Um, civility, um, you know, getting people engaged in not only local but state politics, because it all the bickering and all that stuff that I was just talking about, it it drives people away from wanting to serve. Very much so. And and how do we bring civility back? And how do we get folks that say, you know, despite the fact that I'm gonna get beaten up for what if I say one thing or the other, you know, nobody's gonna it's what's the old adage, like I tick off 100% of the people 50% of the people. Right, exactly. Uh or I take off 50% of the people 100% of the time. Right. You know, that's what it is. And but then you you you start to see that you know the public may not be that engaged in the day-to-day, but they gravitate to a couple issues, and then it's blown up and uh and it drives people away from um wanting to serve. And uh it's like how do we balance the needs of you know, new people coming in and filling our roles when we leave to okay, t tone down the rhetoric because we want people to actually want to serve with a passion um rather than just simply do it. Um but that's I mean, it's the reality of of you know, either post-COVID or post social media, that everything is out there for the public to see.
SPEAKER_02I I think that both of those were the big are the big drivers. I it's it makes I mean it I'm thinking about sort of the the general mission that that Redwood has is trying to, you know, is trying to think about how to navigate leadership in in this current context. Um, not even necessarily political context, but larger context. I mean, there's a lot of people who are involved with this organization who serve or are involved in this or that political role, but are not primarily uh that's not primarily what they do. They're all affected by it, they all engage with it. Um and there's a just a total, I think the general diagnosis that I would give is that there's a lack of trust at every level in among among everybody. People do not trust institutions, they don't trust the media, they don't trust their neighbors, um, they uh don't trust you know the what what what all of the things that sort of used to be the cornerstones of of uh of mutual trust are now um kind of embody how how much that is just missing. And um uh that is driven in in large part by yeah, what the types of interactions that they're seeing between government and the public, um, even if those are not representative of what is necessarily really going on, um, that is the point of engagement for many, many people as they see that clip, they see that you know post, um, and they're gonna have one of a few reactions, one of which is to get riled up about that issue, um, one of which might be to try to learn more. Um, but that might lead to, boy, if this is what it's like, then I'm not interested in uh both in terms of, frankly, the complexity and the and the difficulty of a lot of the issues that we we deal with. It does feel like that it was frustrating to feel like, especially when we're advocating for policy change at the state level, um, we're having the same ar having the same argument year after year. Um and uh but also just the the again, the the personal nature of it, the possibility that you're going to be kind of attacked, um, and including physically, right?
SPEAKER_01And your families involved. And you know, how like I uh at the time uh I was mayor, my kids were in elementary and and middle school. Yeah. And how do they they they've got pretty thick skin, thank goodness. But you know, uh one thing I was thinking sometimes these issues were going on, how can they go and talk to their friends at school? Like knowing that this has happened, you know, it's it's tough. And and I think as your kids or any kids get older, they um start to, you know, it may be more personal. Like if you've got uh high school kids, uh kids in high school where their friends are a little bit more educated than they were at elementary school, where they're seeing the news or they're hearing what their parents are saying about your kids' parents, you know, it it it's I'm sure, you know, difficult for the kids to have to bear that. Um one thing I I I tell folks and and you know, even you know, folks that don't really know government, they say, oh, you were talking about not trusting institutions, banks, you know, uh big corporations. Don't trust a politician, don't trust politicians, politicians, politicians. I never like the term politician. Yeah, you know, I'm not a politician, you know. Um I work in campaigns and I work in politics, but I work in government. Yeah, I serve in government. I am a government official, you know. It almost is like a four-letter word politician. Yeah. And it usually comes from the the person who's just got a chip on his shoulder that says, Oh, you're just another politician. You know, you're here today, you're gonna be gone tomorrow, and the next politician's gonna go in and and do their thing and nothing's gonna change. You want to get that mindset or that mentality thrown out the window, too, because you could actually, you know, turn that person around by, you know, providing for them and telling them this is what we actually do. We're not just politicians, but you know, your roads are getting paved. The snowstorm that came through, the the we had a tornado in Weathersfield that wiped out a large part of a neighborhood. You know, we're there for you. We're not just, you know, behind a microphone trying to get re-elected every two years. We're we're serving you.
SPEAKER_02And I think what what I found again and again, at that point of you showing up, and at that point of you having the conversation, explaining what's going on behind the budget, um, being there uh when you know the house has been impacted by a tornado or a fire or something like that, um showing you know showing up at the at the at the Little League game or at uh the the car show or any number, I mean all of those things that 99 percent of my interactions truly like face to face with constituents were incredibly positive. Oh, we have to do that. And it it is whether it's whether it's just randomly on the street or in that situation where you're actually dealing with some kind of issue. Um and and so it's a it is that bond exists right at that point. Um but for the most part, again, if people are experiencing if people's experience of government is, and certainly you don't want your experience of government to be your house burns down, and then you get to meet a firefighter who who helps you out, um, that's not something you would wish on some whole maybe the better example, maybe what you would wish for is that you know, uh uh everybody attends fire safety day and gets smoke detectors and so forth. But um but if people's experience of government is not uh is primarily what they see on the news or social media or what they just kind of hear from from people or imagine as opposed to um going and seeing how how does a fire department work or or um you know how does the paving program work and uh how does the budget get adopted for all these things. And it's it's it's I think that there can be a tendency to put kind of too much back on you know, people have their lives to live and and all that stuff. But um but the the thing that the the thing that does need to change, I think, if there's gonna be any future beyond this 250 and counting is is uh uh what how do we make it not a four-letter word, right? How do we make public service in general not seem like something that only only psychos would do? Um and uh make it something that is a more a little bit more accessible in the same way that um you know all of our other general duties are that you know we we we all have to pay taxes, we are all subject to jury duty, you know. There is a level of engagement um and responsibility um uh back to society uh that exists. And there's also a lot that you, as individuals, should expect from your government, from your society. Uh and and right now there's just mistrust in both directions.
SPEAKER_01You know. Definitely. And and I don't know, I mean, I don't know how long our uh distrust in government officials has been. You know, I it probably since the day Washington took office. You know, somebody had to have said, I just don't trust that guy. You know? Um maybe it wasn't Washington, but a couple presidents after him. It starts to become, you know, who are they doing it for self-service or are they doing it for the common good? Right. Um and I think for everybody, we you and me included, when we served, I uh you know, I've known you for for a number of years. We had that idea that we were gonna come in, serve the public. If I didn't want to run again, I didn't, I just simply didn't want to run again. I was on council for 10 years. Um, but I'm sure if I did, I I would have probably been re-elected and uh continued serving. Um but I'm still engaged. I'm on a couple boards and commissions in town, and uh I still talk to folks. They still come to me with the ideas that they have and hey, can you share this with the new mayor? Or, you know, what are they doing with this, you know, crazy idea in the budget? Right. Well I I'll listen to you, I'll help you as much as I can, but I'm happy to to go home at night and not have to be, you know, that forward-facing mayor anymore to now have to deal with, you know, the reality of being mayor at that time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think it's it is something that has a um that does have, for better or for worse, has sort of a shelf life to it, right? I think that there are different ways that you can serve. Um, and I and I do see it, I see the continuum being a straight line. I was working I worked for Senator Murphy in his congressional office for a number of years after college, then served in this role and and going into education. Um, it feels like a natural continuum to me, even though they're all extremely different from one another uh in terms of what they're like on a day-to-day basis. Um but uh there is a a point where you can be, I think, very effective in that public-facing role where you're the communicator, where you are um the central figure uh in the in the town. Um and there is a time when it's wouldn't it's appropriate for somebody else to take that, to take that role. I think there's been you know there have been a few mayors in Connecticut um who have served for decades and decades and decades. Um I think that either you either have you've got you've either got four to eight years or you have to commit to it for fifty, you know, and there's not a lot of in-between.
SPEAKER_01I don't think my wife commit to fifty. Yeah. But uh and just listening to you, I'm I'm actually thinking about your role and and soon to be a teacher, is that you know, you're it's very similar. You you are while you're a mayor, you're you're shaping policy, you're shaping, you know, how people deal with their local government. Uh when you're a teacher or in education, you're you you're shaping minds and and you're using your experience 99% of the time for the good. You know, when you are a mayor or in in local or state government, you are doing your best to provide as much good for the public as possible. When you're a teacher, I s I would assume, and and one day maybe I will be in the same shoes you are in teaching kids, is that you know, you're you're just putting your best foot forward. You you're you're using your experience, your knowledge to be able to s shape the mind of the child. And then when you come home, you say to yourself, I did what I could do as best as I could for that day with the kids. And I'm sure you said it when you came home from a late night council meeting. Yep. I did the best I could. Yep. Yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_02And and you know, then now m tomorrow's a new day. One thing I am looking forward to is having a bell again. Can you imagine if there was a bell at the end of a council meeting? Because I was saying now I I now now going forward, classes, meetings, it's not going to be six to whenever. Right. It's going to be six to eight. You know, you're going to be you're going to have a time when it's over. Um and uh yes, the the interminable nature of those things for could could could could take a toll of you. But you still have to just say, hey, I did the best I could.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you'll have that audience in front of you. Yeah. And they're not staring at you with daggers coming out of their eyes. They're they're staring at you wide open, eyes wide open, you know, uh wanting to learn. It's going to be great. Um, congratulations for you. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Thank you. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02It's like the yeah, the worst case scenario in a classroom is that a kid is like sleeping, right? And I would take that in a council meeting. That would be that would not that would not be the worst case scenario.
SPEAKER_01No, but now I'm thinking you may get the parent who might say, you know what, you did you promised me you were gonna pave my street 15 years ago. And now you're teaching my kid. I don't trust you. I've got to be. No, you have to be careful. It's not just the kids that I'm thinking now. It's it's you've got parents now. Yeah. It's yeah, you you like you said about superintendents, you're forward-facing, you're facing, and and you know, you're you gotta grapple with the uh comments from the parents about not being able to teach them properly, or why are you disciplining my children? Yes.
SPEAKER_02It is absolutely as as you know, not not to the same extent as as an elected official, certainly a mayor, um, but it is a public, it's you're still a public figure uh in a lot of ways. And um at my you know, graduate school orientation, a lot of focus was spent on uh how careful you need to be on social media, which I think we we we we learned that by by going through the going through the fire. But um you know, I've got and it's the cohort is cool because there's people who are my age, there's people who are older than me, and then there's a lot of people who are like coming right out of college. So um it's gonna be an exciting group to work with. Uh but I think especially for uh uh the generation below below me, uh it is just such a natural part of interacting with the world is through social media. And um you but everybody can see it, you know, including the parents who will call the school district if you if you're playing a you know a rap song with swear words in it, you know, that kind of thing. Um and uh it's just uh again, you learn that lesson through being in the I I've learned that lesson now in politics. You don't want to have to learn it as a teacher, but that's the reality for and that's true for any kind of any kind of public service. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I even tell my own kids, you know, be careful. Yeah. You know, the the last name rel goes a long way in the state of Connecticut. Yeah. And it's got thankful, uh, you know, I continued my mom's legacy of it. And you know, people liked me as much as they liked her. Be careful what you say, kids. Don't post post anything on social media that you didn't want your grandmother to see. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So because when you're doing it, it'll be on the front page of the newspaper. Yeah. That's very interesting. Um so I I will I'll just say as we as we wrap up, um I'm uh you know, I and this organization is a very interesting one because it's still it's developing its mission as we as we go. I understand that there's a there is a mission, but um it's such a new concept. And we were always, you know, there's groups of mayors who meet, CCM, you know, uh different groups of leaders meeting in different settings, but that cross-pollination is what is trying to be achieved here, and I think it's um it's been a really cool thing. And I got brought into it by our uh by our City of Middletown New Services Director, um, Justin Carbonella, who was in I think the first cohort. Um and uh it's been it's it's uh it's we're it feels interesting to be at the beginning of something in this way.
SPEAKER_01No, I I totally agree. You know, it it's uh is um it's kind of a new idea that uh and Connecticut's a small state. Very small state. And you know, there are now three, I think going on four cohorts, I'm cohort two, um, looking at, you know, what did the first one do? Uh what are we currently doing, and how can you know it be shaped just like you shape the next cohort going in. But it's a collaboration too. There you, you know, there are leaders from various sectors, you know, public sector, private sector, southeast corner, northwest corner. I mean, it touches the entire state. And and I I think being able to work collaboratively and get our message out um in the future will start to resonate with public that you know there is a group of people who, for the greater good of the state of Connecticut, you know, devote their time to to to better our environment. Yeah. It's great to see you. We'll be having each other's classroom someday, perhaps. Yeah. Cool.