Ep. 11 - Talkin' Church (with Kyle & Rachel)

Kyle Wright returns as a guest to Small Group, this time he is accompanied by his wife Rachel. They share their experience with enduring various trials and searching for a church. The group discusses the positives and negatives that can come with church, while focusing on the role of what the church is to be as described in scripture, as well as individual responsibility within the church. 

Thank you for joining in Small Group, and please feel free to participate with us by sending your thoughts, questions, or ideas by commenting, messaging, or by email (goat.bear.lobster@gmail.com). You can also reach out, and find out more about us, at our website: SmallGroupPodcast.wordpress.com. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_08 0:41

Your donuts make your donuts. This is Small Group Podcast. I'm Benjamin Maxwell.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

I'm Lacey.

SPEAKER_08 0:48

We are blessed to be joined again with by Kyle Wright, the godfather of Small Group Podcast. Fortunately, he is being supervised tonight by his lovely wife, Rachel Wright. Good to have you too.

SPEAKER_05 1:07

It's good to be here. We're excited.

SPEAKER_08 1:09

Don't lie.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

And all three of our kids are in the background. So if you hear the crazy, that's what it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Apologies in advance. They heard a little Ezra last week. Little Ezra and Gabby action. It was it was a party. And then the one that can control himself. Which is Carson, our our oldest. He's uh he's the one to hear right now. So chaotic. But we're happy to be here. Thank you for having me again, and thank you for having us. Excited to do something with you again.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_08 1:48

We've uh yeah, we've we've been on your show, and I know we've plugged it before. We'll uh go ahead and plug it again. Leave it at the table. Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

You want to plug all ten of them again?

unknown 2:01

No.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Yeah, leave it at the table. That's myself, Drew Gorman, Danielle Gillary. We're live every Thursday night on YouTube and Facebook. You can find us the next day, in most cases at least. You can find us the next morning, wherever you get your podcast. When people ask us what our podcast is about, we say nothing but everything. And I think that's my favorite thing about it is that there's there is no purpose to it. We just it's three friends that get together. Three friends from different walks of life. Married two kids, myself, Drew's married, no kids, Danielle's single woman, three perspectives, and it's just it's a good show. We have fun doing it.

SPEAKER_08 2:36

You've talked about before as far as with Rachel, as you know, you I think you've said it like she she's married a content creator, and this is part of it. Here you are, thrusting her in again to another show.

SPEAKER_07 2:50

So we're here I am.

SPEAKER_08 2:52

We're definitely glad to have you and to hear from someone other than Kyle for the third week. She does have lots of words to say.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

There's donuts on the table tonight, so you probably won't hear much more.

SPEAKER_08 3:04

Well, let's go ahead and get things started.

SPEAKER_07 3:07

Jingle bell, jingle, yay, jingle good for you.

SPEAKER_08 3:10

Go ahead and kick us off here.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Alrighty, our icebreaker question is which artist or band is a guilty pleasure for you? And I will preface this with this is a judgment free zone.

SPEAKER_08 3:27

No, it's not. Well, it is here in this on the show, but once we leave, because Kyle and I, we see a lot of each other. Once we leave here, it's not stay here. Yeah. It's not Vegas.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

You want to go first?

SPEAKER_05 3:45

No, because I'll probably take yours. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Taylor Swift. I'm a Swiftie. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

I I would have honestly never pegged that.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 3:54

Does it feel good to get that out?

SPEAKER_03 3:56

It does, it does. It's very enlightening. No, I'm I've actually never been one to hide it. I I her music is good. I'm I'm not a big fan of like the stuff she's dropped over the last like three or four years. But one thing I like about Taylor Swift, and I I'm a big fan of women in general. I think we talked a little bit about this last week. Why do we feel the need to stress that? Strong women in general. And Taylor Swift is the definition of a success story because you've seen so many. And I don't, you know, you've seen a lot of female artists, the Britney Spears, the Miley Cyruses of the world, the Madonnas, that have had the industry mess with them in some capacity, and they've just gone off the deep end, they've gone crazy, shaved their head, you know, done wild stuff.

SPEAKER_08 4:45

Leave Britney alone.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

But Taylor Swift responded to that with Taylor's version. And yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_08 4:53

Admitting to being a Swifty is one thing you're really going in on. Dude, I'm in it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:00

He doesn't play about KK.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

She's a success story in every every capacity.

SPEAKER_08 5:05

Respect it. I was about to say, remind me never to bring up Taylor Swift, but I don't think I have to worry about that.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

I guess otherwise, I guess I'd go with Backstreet Boys. And the only reason that's controversial is because we live here and we live here on the beach. He owns the beach. Brian Latell. Shout out to him if you're a listener, Brian. We love you. Come on the show.

SPEAKER_08 5:25

Oh wait, I totally forgot I gave you a button. I I worked really hard to make you a button, and I didn't even so I'm gonna just kind of give you a second introduction. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Kyle Wright. Donut in his mouth and everything. You can't see me. He was done talking about it. Shoved it in there. Ma'am. So you said, Rachel, you said yours was the same.

SPEAKER_05 5:49

So I like Taylor Swift, but he obviously takes the cake. He is much more of a swiftie than I am. That's gonna hurt. No, he loves it. It's it's funny.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

I did a butterfly tattoo under my eye when we went and saw her.

SPEAKER_05 6:03

You went and saw her? Yeah to stop. Yeah, we did. He sat in that queue for hours to get those tickets. He was committed. Please move on. I don't want to hear any words. This is ruining my my impression.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

11 hours in a pre-sale queue.

SPEAKER_08 6:17

He went from Godfather of small group to distant cousin, never invited back.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

I don't know if this would be considered guilty pleasure. My actual guilty pleasure would probably be different. But like Skillet is like all time. We've gone to like seven or eight concerts for them together just throughout our relationship. Planning nine. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna go. In August. And yeah, they're just I've come on to Skillet late recently.

SPEAKER_08 6:47

And uh I never gave them enough. Aren't they the ones the the the lady drummer? Yeah. She is incredible. Oh yeah. There's been a couple things that have popped up on the algorithm that have hooked me.

SPEAKER_05 6:59

And going to different concerts, it's like it you're never boring. Because some c artists will do the same thing every time and they keep it. I've only seen her once. Yeah. That was too exciting.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

How many times have you seen Skillet? This will be our ninth time.

SPEAKER_08 7:14

Say it loud and proud. I need to hear more of that. How many times have you seen Skillet?

SPEAKER_05 7:17

Nah! Way more times than Taylor Swift. Otherwise, I gotta go with Paramore. That's my other interesting. I know, I know. I guess it's not.

SPEAKER_08 7:25

I think it depends on who you ask. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:27

Some people are like, eh, girl pop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 7:30

I'm kind of with you.

SPEAKER_05 7:31

It depends on what Haley Wow. She's awesome. Yeah. It's a powerhouse.

SPEAKER_08 7:38

I'm gonna I so I did have Paramount I so the my guilty pleasures I ended up. I don't know how it worked out like this, but it's like by decade, pick a decade and I'll give you my guilty pleasures. It's just stacked up that way. Paramour, but like early Paramour isn't necessarily like what Kyle said, it's not guilty pleasure. I think the more recent like post-2010 is probably more. And even their more poppy stuff that's on the radio, I got tired of that. But there's some like deep tracks that okay, I'm really um Haley Williams is that she's uh she's impressive. But 90s cranberries cranberries hit hard for me.

SPEAKER_07 8:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_08 8:22

And then that the 80s heart, who our three-year-old has been a big fan of.

SPEAKER_05 8:28

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_08 8:29

I've grown uh I've grown a new appreciation for heart.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Gabby loves heart.

SPEAKER_08 8:33

Yeah, our our Gabby's Gabby's playlist will go from Louie's dance mode to go go's the go-go's to the oh I'm trying to think of the heart song that she does.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Alone.

SPEAKER_08 8:48

Yeah, alone by heart. Uh it's fine until she starts talking more fluently, then we're gonna have to really start paying attention to the lyrics. But and then 80s. Is BGs no 70s, sorry. Is be BGs have always been a guilty pleasure that transcend decades. But if I have to go to the 70s and go ABBA. Oh that one is that one hurts to that one hurts to say out loud. But Abba.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Yeah, I got scrutiny for Taylor Swift, and you're admitting to ABBA. It's like the original weird idea. I think music by the other thing.

SPEAKER_08 9:20

I think uh everybody listening, I think, would side with me that Taylor Swift is harder. It's uh well it's a it's a harder pill to swallow. Maybe what about Inya? There's a little bit of I wouldn't sit there and listen to Inya over and over, but I don't hate them.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

That's a non-small group podcast conversation, but Inya You turn on water lube.

SPEAKER_08 9:48

And I'm digging it. It's Lacey, it's Princess Bubbles. What is your guilty? This is gonna be interesting. So, like, I I love listening to Backstreet Boys and say what I was just gonna say, because all your guilty pleasures are her normal songs.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

No, no, I'm I'm actually not as Swifty. When she like I I was when she was country, but as soon as You Belong With Me came out, y'all please don't hate me for the what I'm saying. But like I after that, I was like, okay, you're fine, but like you you kind of lost me a little bit.

unknown 10:23

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Kyle, don't go. Come back, Kyle. Kyle, please don't. No, but like I love I loved love story. Like, and I love Tim McGraw. That the first song that she and like yes.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

So everything after fearless, no, no go.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Anyways, but like I I love to listen to 90s, early 2000s, third fly, Nelly, you know, but the guilty, guilty pleasure is nickel back. Yeah, I love like and so unwarranted. I mean, and like I'll still listen to like like the Hannah Montana, like Jonas Brothers, don't judge me too harsh for the bigger.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

I went to a Jonas Brothers concert like what's it a year ago, two years ago with the sister.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

I love it. So fun, but like I love like all the nostalgia, but like Nickelback, like Nickelback and Daniel Welch are the reasons why I made it through high school. So like just keep them in your pocket. Oh yeah, so I mean like rock star and photograph, like just yeah.

SPEAKER_08 11:34

The memes have ruined that.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Look at the scrap.

SPEAKER_08 11:39

Ruined that song for me.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

The the disrespect that Nickelback has got.

SPEAKER_08 11:42

It's so crazy. Unwarranted.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

And Creed. Creed too.

SPEAKER_08 11:47

Nickelback is just a repackaged Creed, almost. Because I I'll I I will go Creed, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Absolutely, every time.

SPEAKER_08 11:56

They get a hard, they get a hard time too.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Creed has a cruise next year with Breaking Benjamin, who is my all-time favorite band. They're gonna be on a cruise together, and I'm baby.

SPEAKER_07 12:05

Can we go on a cruise?

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Summer of 99 cruise. I think Bush is there too. Living Color. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 12:21

Let's start it off. Mom doesn't think so. Creed. Creed is it's a good segue. Let's let's segue into our main conversation tonight. What is taking you higher? Yeah, that's it. Are you six never mind now? Kyle, last time you were on, you know, we really dug into your personal story, especially, but also, you know, I know you talked about or we talked about, you know, being a father and leader of the family as well. But, you know, one thing that we did talk about primarily is is your guys' search for a church. And we kind of want to back up. We're you know, I I don't want this to be completely just a interview, hey, tell us you know, all about you know, we've all heard about Kyle. Tell us about you, Rachel. I don't want to turn into that, uh, but there is gonna be uh some questions where I think we'll have to start from a personal standpoint and and dig deeper into some topics. But as far as you know, uh looking for a church I can't remember if we talked about this or not, but what what started you guys on that uh desire to want to find a church? Has it always been there and just what what or did did something happen where it just became real or Yeah, I think it was kind of always there.

SPEAKER_05 13:46

We were just so busy and you know now we have two kids and life just was happening a lot. But I really think that we were being spiritually attacked. There was spiritual warfare happening in our lives that was just one thing after another, back to back to back, bad things that just now looking back, all of them are somehow connected. If one thing didn't happen, we wouldn't have been set up for the next thing that happened to be able to manage and live still. But just I feel like there was so much spiritual warfare happening, and I don't know and now I think that that was God being like, listen, this is how I'm gonna get you back to me. I know you've known me, but like it's time to really come back. It's it's been long enough. You got kids now, let's go.

SPEAKER_08 14:43

And you and you don't have to I mean, I'm not asking for all of it or even you can just tell me no if you want. Open the book. Can you give me kind of an example of that spiritual warfare?

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Start on the specific.

SPEAKER_08 14:56

Start from uh January of 2023 through and don't have to relive it all. I can tell it's probably gonna be December of twenty-three.

SPEAKER_05 15:05

So I think it's all Kyle's fault, to be honest. You God was after Kyle. Yeah, yeah. Because all of this is because of you. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

You think that you started okay. December of 2023 through September of 2024. Sorry. And I'm the podcaster, the godfather, if you will. The pod the pod cousin now.

SPEAKER_08 15:29

No, you you blew it. You're just a cousin father.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

No, dude, I'm the pod father. Oh my gosh. I smell a new show. Spinoff. So December of 2023, my grandfather passed away. He was the one the you know, the person I was closest to in my life, other than my dad. So it was very hard, very hard to swallow. We go into January and we're kind of fighting through the whole, you know, he he is he's only been dead for a little while. His funeral was just a couple days before Christmas. He had left me his truck in the will. It's a nice, you know, beautiful GMC Sierra. And I was kind of hooked at the time on the idea that like I don't really want it. And uh plus there was some drama with my mom, not necessarily wanting me to have it either at the time. Shout out to you, Mom. I love you. I hope you don't listen to this. Um gotta love her to death. We are so grateful for her, actually. Just in case she does, circle back. No, so I I was kind of hooked on the idea, like, I I don't I didn't really want it because it was kind of it just it was me accepting that he was gone. But then I had to start to get to the idea that he did want me to have it because one day Rachel goes to Walmart while we were living in Mariana and I'll let you take over.

SPEAKER_05 16:44

Yeah, so we were living in Mariana and I don't remember why I was going to Walmart, it doesn't matter. But you guys needed groceries, yeah. You guys were live at his house cleaning it out. No, no. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_03 16:57

No, no, I was talking about you because yours started me getting the truck, yeah. Yeah. So your fault. My grandfather just died.

SPEAKER_05 17:03

Yeah, so we were living in Mariana one morning, I think it was probably a Sunday morning, I went to the store to go get like cinnamon rolls or something for breakfast and coming back, and thankfully I just went by myself because the boys were still either sleeping or they were just it wasn't worth getting them ready to go. But I'm coming down our road and somebody backs out of their driveway into the side of my vehicle and like on our street, he backs out and like thirty miles an hour, by the way. The way he hit me, he said he'd looked both ways, but he didn't see me, and the way that he hit me, it dented in the door frame just enough that when he pulled away, it popped the door back out and shattered the window. So it totaled the car, and there was like frame damage to the car. Wow. So and thankfully it was on the side that Ezra's seat is on, and his seat was full of glass. And if I had taken him, oh my gosh, it would have been so much worse. But so my car was put under the under the carport.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

The carport and sat there. Gave the insurance company three weeks to get out and look at it.

SPEAKER_05 18:14

Yeah, it's forever to get it into the shop, and then so we were like, okay, well, I guess we have to get that truck now.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

And then Yeah, this is kind of where the the crazy stuff starts to happen. So so we finally have to say, okay, well, we need another vehicle now. We have one, thank God. So if grandpa doesn't die, we have one vehicle commuting from Mariana to Panama City every day, right? It's it's so there's like the first weird blessing that happened.

SPEAKER_05 18:43

We have another vehicle.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

So uh get the truck legalized, get that figured out, and I think I got it legalized on January 9th, and then on January 19th, we were there at my grandfather's house cleaning it out after he passed, just getting everything out of it. You know, he had a he had some termite infestation, so like we had to throw away pretty much everything that was in his home. And it was but in a way it was kind of cleansing at the same time. It was better that way. So we we were there cleaning out his house and throwing the stuff away, and Rachel and the kids stopped by and Carson was asleep in the back seat, and I there there's relevance to that as well. So I just sent them home back up to Mariana, and I got in the I got in the truck about an hour, no, not shortly after, about thirty minutes after.

SPEAKER_07 19:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

About thirty to forty-five minutes after, and I started heading home, driving north up 231, and all of a sudden uh headlights coming at me. And 60 on 60, hit I got a a drunk driver had hop lanes and hit me head on on 231. And my my usual vehicle was the Kia Optima. If I was in that, then we're probably not recording this tonight.

SPEAKER_07 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Lucky to be recording this anyway. Walked out uh the most I walked out of that with was a concussion and a I mean some depression, but sorry. Total my grandpa's truck, so obviously that was a big thing we went through. But again, had I not been in the truck, indirect blessing.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

I know, I know Andy.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

That dog. The dog feels my pain. Had I not been in the truck, I was gone. And the most important thing of it was the truck was it was it was a big truck, but it was single cast. And so Carson loved to ride with me. Had Carson been awake when Rachel and the kid stopped, he would have been with me.

SPEAKER_05 20:36

Wow. It's just those little things that intertwined like that were like. I don't know if that's little, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 20:44

You know, you guys had a bunch of big things. It ain't over.

SPEAKER_05 20:47

No, but then so we settled from that, and then we finally were like, you know, we went after the guy, and of course he was a a deadbeat drunk, and this was his fourth DI, and so I still have to work. So and they were like, he's gonna go to jail, so there's no like just settle for this amount and blah blah blah. And he didn't end up going to jail, which is the craziest part. And what did he blow?

SPEAKER_03 21:09

He blew like a He blew uh three hours after the fact because he refused to blow on the scene, he blew a point uh an op 0.237. So over triple the limit.

SPEAKER_05 21:20

It was insane three hours later. How high it was. So we're settled from that. We did go to a lawyer, you know, and they were like, just he's not worth it. Essentially, you're not gonna get much out of him. He doesn't have anything.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

And I do want to point out that I knew the lawyer, so it wasn't like he was like small case, get you out of here.

SPEAKER_05 21:40

So he was he would have helped us more if he could have.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Kids being kids in the background. It's okay, it's not ours, buddy. You have fun.

SPEAKER_07 21:50

Don't encourage Gabby.

SPEAKER_08 21:54

She's probably the one encouraging. Cool. So you guys have all these things coming together or other Just what you feel like you're under assault, basically. And and you did you felt that in the like there I feel like when things like that start to add up, you can either just I mean there's multiple ways of looking at it. One uh ignoring any kind of spiritual tie or anything like that, or two, blaming God, or three, I which I think is more where you guys are falling under, is looking to God. This is leading you guys to want maybe a a stronger connection with God or seek a stronger relationship.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

There was on my side much more blame. Much more blame at the beginning.

SPEAKER_05 22:42

Uh because in the middle of it, it was hard to be like, not be like, why is all of this happening? What is going on? I don't want to hijack.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

But I told the September story between the restaurant and the knee, like on last week or so. So from your perspective, you should tell that part. Because it was the same year, month like months later.

SPEAKER_05 23:02

Months later. So we had gotten that settlement, and then it came in. We paid rent ahead of time a little bit, like a few months in advance, because we had some. I mean, it wasn't a whole lot of money, but it was enough to like pay rent a few months in advance. So we did that and we paid off some bills and all that stuff. And then we wake up one Thursday morning, I think it was a Thursday, and he's looking on his phone and just freaking out for that. He's like, what is happening? And it he sees on Facebook that the restaurant that he's working at is on fire and gone, essentially. So we were like, oh no, what do we do? And then he, you know, he's calling everybody, and it was just a sheer panic moment because it you just wake up and everything's like up in the air. Like your job that you've worked at for years is gone and we don't have a backup plan, and I don't like what's gonna happen, how bad is it? Is it just completely done, or are we is it workable? Can you go tomorrow? Like so it was confusing, and then you're still in this blaming yeah. So we're still upset about all of you know his losing his great ball stroke, there's depression from that, and then you add that on top of that.

SPEAKER_08 24:19

And Kyle, real quick, because Kyle said that he was in a more of a blaming, spiritually in a blaming stage. What how where were you at in this? Were you maybe just shell-shocked?

SPEAKER_07 24:32

I think I was later.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

Yeah, I think I was just like in shock of like, wow, that all happened. That's crazy. I don't like just confusion more of anything. Like, why is this happening? Because like I was I think feel like I was hopeful for something good to come out of it, and I try to find good in situations like that just to keep positivity, and then you know, so we're trying to figure out, and Kyle's applying to all these things, and then he goes to a softball game. Then he goes to play a softball game to, you know, relax and have fun, and I get a phone call from one of our really good friends, and she said, Kyle's knee is out of place, and they were calling an ambulance. I said, Excuse you, you said what to me right now, and I just was in utter disbelief because I was like, You have got to be kidding me. This is not happening right now. I was pissed. I was really, really, really mad. I think that's when all the anger and the just everything hit me when that happened, and I was so mad.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Not even a cool story.

SPEAKER_05 25:41

I remember telling him in the hospital I looked at him. Do you remember me saying this to you?

SPEAKER_03 25:45

No, I don't know. I was on a lot of people. You probably were.

SPEAKER_05 25:48

I looked at you and I said, I don't know what your relationship is with God right now or what you have going on, but I need you to fix it and get it together. I told you that in the hospital because I was so mad at you.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

And it was just laying there, my knee is the size of a basketball and my wife's eviscerating me in the hospital.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

I'm like, oh, this is with good reason, by the way.

SPEAKER_05 26:06

I don't know what your championship relationship is right now, but like I need you to like figure it out because something's happening. And it was like at that point, I was like, we're being attacked, something is happening. I don't know if I need to get blessed, are we cursed? What's happening? Yeah, it was all just so much and it's very, very confusing. And it was a lot.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

That is a lot.

SPEAKER_05 26:28

But you know, looking at back, like if we hadn't had that car wrecked and got that settlement, we wouldn't have paid rent from like ahead, and we wouldn't have had that little bit put back that we had to pay all the bills when we were down to one income and he could literally couldn't get out of bed. I had to have help him shower. That's how bad his knee was. It wasn't just like a pop, pop out, pop back in. Like it was there was tearing and it was bad. I mean, awful.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

Like my kneecapped at a little 90-degree angle. Yeah, it was it was it was quite rough. Well can't wait for church top off.

SPEAKER_05 27:02

I feel like things have gotten better since then, so that's cool.

SPEAKER_08 27:05

Well, yeah, and I mean, like you've already started to talk about, you know, one thing leads to another. Yes, there's there feels like this spiral.

SPEAKER_07 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 27:12

But now you've you finally have made it to a place where one thing led to another, led to another, led to another, and now here we are sitting at the same table.

SPEAKER_05 27:21

That has led him to, you know, he worked at that golf shop, and then that was just terrible in the long run.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

I mean, and it He's not a Christian, he'll never hear that.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

But it led him to finding the job at Noble through Tyler, and then that's where he's met you, and then here we are, and we've found a church that has been well and game changing.

SPEAKER_08 27:43

And two, and we kind of already talked about the whole story of your introduction into the into the the congregation that we worship with, and you know, it was almost like maybe the Holy Spirit working in spite of me because I was just complaining about oh, it's gonna be a long day. I've been up since four, had a men's Bible study, and then he's like, Where do you go to church?

SPEAKER_05 28:06

And kind of because we were shopping at that point, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 28:09

And I like to joke around like he invited himself kind of thing, but it's he does not but still it's the Holy Spirit is working and is letting it because at that point I got the impression from you of a of someone seeking, searching, and I only knew Kyle at this point. Um and like what you're talking about, you guys were kind of shopping for around for a church, and so you've you've come out of this blaming God phase. One, what how do you because you hear a lot of people mainly, you know, will will you you can hit see videos and and whatever will pop up of people blaming God and and just discrediting God. You've come from that place to a eagerly searching place when by the time you and I met. And so how how does that happen? How do you dig your way out of when you with such animosity, maybe, and anger?

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Yeah, so the perspective of uh realizing that one tragedy led to a blessing didn't come until well after the fact. So for me in the time, I I had all but denounced God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:15

I'll never set foot in a church again.

SPEAKER_08 29:18

Even at that moment when you and I had that conversation that morning.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

No, no, no. It was well, I'm talking about when like when I was injured, because basically it was I felt I I was in a moment of like helplessness. Like my wife's going, she's gone all day. She's she's taking the kids to school, she's picking them up, she's cooking dinner, and I can't even shower. And it it you know, as a man, how like how does that make you feel, right? Like it you feel like you're not doing enough. You're not well because you're not. And it's so at the time I'm I'm just looking to heaven and I'm like, well, dude, why did you do this to me? Like you are like almost like a breakup, like looking up, like, dude, you and I are done. You and I are done. And and i and I'm the only reason I'm not afraid to admit that is because of where I am now. Because those blessings weren't obvious at the time. Like it wasn't like we're like, oh, thank God we have a savings account or this wouldn't be happening. But thank who? Right? Like that like thank God has just become a thing that we throw out for every little situation. But the truth of the matter is, looking back on it now, especially, like, man, he wa he was working. Like those things were gonna happen.

SPEAKER_08 30:30

But you can still, I feel like maybe like the fact that you guys have come to a place where you recognize that everything was working for a reason and every because I feel like maybe some people may go, you know, down that hole of blaming, never recognizing the benefit of it.

SPEAKER_06 30:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 30:49

Maybe just looking at it, okay, I'm finally I finally turned it around instead of God leading you or you know, delivering you.

SPEAKER_05 30:57

Through it all, we had a lot of people, you know, commend us on how we because we didn't grovel and all that stuff through it, you know. We it is what it is was the mentality for most of it, especially when we were like around people. Yeah. But people being like, you know, you guys are handling this well, you know, how are you doing that? Like I'd anybody else would crumble.

SPEAKER_06 31:24

While inside you're just like, I'm dead inside.

SPEAKER_05 31:27

And I think the real thing was so I was ready to start to go back to church once that had you know, once his need happened, I was like, listen, we're being attacked, I gotta go. I gotta get back into church, something's telling me. Like that was like my biggest calling, I think. Like when all that was happening, I was like, Wait, like I gotta get back into a church, I gotta find one. And I needed I think we were having some behavioral issues with Carson too, yeah, and that were pretty big, and we were like, okay, he needs to get some sort of foundation too, because they had never been in church either, and I was feeling guilt from that on top of everything, too, with the kids. And I mean his behavioral issues were getting pretty serious, so we were like, Okay, he needs to like your oldest. Yes. Yeah, yes, yeah, and he has ADHD, and you know, the behavioral and impulse issues go along with that hand in hand, so it's to be expected, but he just needed to find a foundation and we needed to get him somewhere that somebody besides us can tell us, like, hey, these things are wrong, and Jesus doesn't like that.

SPEAKER_08 32:33

Yeah. Real quick, because the way you're talking to, and you've already mentioned it, get back into church. We've we've heard Kyle's a little bit of Kyle's backstory. Well, you grew up in church.

SPEAKER_05 32:44

I did. I grew up in a Baptist church actually here locally on the beach. For the most part, we you know, we did like when we lived in Virginia, I lived I went to Presbyterian or a Methodist, something, I don't know, something not Baptist, but I I identify as Baptist, I guess.

SPEAKER_08 33:11

Yeah, I'm not necessarily thinking like denomination, but just you you have some background.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

But I went through it and I was I feel like I was heavily involved in the youth group, especially. I mean, even through high school, and so I dated a boy in the in the youth group, so you know that kept me in it too. And so, and I feel like just going through, you know, I did the the church, the youth band, and I sang in the choir and stuff, and we had like the normal stuff. So I was and there was a drama club, so I was in it. Yeah. Like, and then once graduated high school and you know, that relationship ended, and it was just, you know, life started moving, started going to college, and then I just kind of faded out uh into the you know, into the world, I guess. And I just never I I did want to go back to that church and I didn't know any other churches really, and I didn't I was just busy and I couldn't I don't know, I just never brought myself to find a new one.

SPEAKER_08 34:09

And I know we can kind of like talk in terms of like going to church as one thing, but you know, and we can also see as a relationship with God as almost a different thing when in our vernacular and how we speak. D did you have a relationship with God in those years growing up?

SPEAKER_05 34:25

I did. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 34:26

And so now going through all this, you know, you you and Kyle both going through all this, and now so you've you've already experienced a relationship with God. You're starting to feel that pull back to God.

SPEAKER_05 34:38

Yeah, definitely heavy there. Just like smacking me in the face almost. Like you need to get back into church now.

SPEAKER_08 34:46

And you and you talked about you know, you guys you grew up in a in a church here. You guys don't live far you know from the beach where you're where you're describing. So I mean you like Lacey and I, we can we come in from Alabama, and so we're fresh and brand new looking everywhere and anywhere. But you already have some connections, but what w what made you want to I I guess maybe the question is what what were you looking for at this point? What are you looking for in a church? What what was the appeal?

SPEAKER_05 35:18

I didn't really know because I was kind of at that point I was just needed something. Anything, anybody that was gonna welcome us in and I could feel like I could breathe in there. And like if you could feel I don't know, you can kind of feel the spirit when you walk into a church and the vibes have to be right. I guess that's the best way to work. Like you gotta feel the vibes.

SPEAKER_08 35:45

Like a checklist that you're looking at.

SPEAKER_05 35:46

No, and I did, you know, you want something I didn't want something small, like where there's like two people in there and they're just like, oh, new people, which we did. We went there, and it was it was a lot, but then also like the big mega churches are like too much icky, kind of. Yeah, yeah. So I wanted like medium size, just enough where you can you can know people, I can talk people, they're gonna know who I am, but I don't like have to talk to you if I don't need to.

SPEAKER_08 36:16

So I feel like you and I connect on that one.

SPEAKER_05 36:19

Yeah, yeah, because if I want to just slip out and no one will notice, that'd be cool.

SPEAKER_08 36:23

Sometimes you just don't feel like talking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:27

There were some checklist things, but it's funny y'all bring up mostly the vibes.

SPEAKER_08 36:32

It's funny y'all bring up the small church thing. There's there's one story when I I lived in Livingston, Alabama, West Alabama, was working at the University of West Alabama, and and I was looking for a church there, and I'm I'm going around, yeah. I'm going around, you know, trying trying up all these different churches, and there's one, I mean, Livingston, Alabama is rural, rural Alabama. I mean, there's not nothing out there. And I found, I think, I'm trying to remember the name of it, it's like Pine something, some community south of Livingston. It was about 30, 45 minutes. I don't know, I don't remember how I found this church, but it's this country church in the middle of nowhere, small church like you guys are talking about, and I walk in, this sweet lady comes up to me and just latches on.

SPEAKER_04 37:19

You're sitting with me, and all this, and just they're always so sweet, but it's oh yeah, it's overwhelming.

SPEAKER_08 37:25

Long story short, first off, she she did like apologize because I was the youngest one in there. She's like, I'm so sorry we don't have any younger, younger girl, younger women here for you. I'm like, that's okay. But uh, but I ended up, she invited me to lunch at her house. I follow her to her house, and she had a couple other people that were coming from the church to join us. That's good.

SPEAKER_05 37:47

It wasn't just you.

SPEAKER_08 37:48

Yeah, it was just me at first because we get to her house and she's like, I've got to run the grocery store and get something real quick. You just what she let me in the house. I'm sitting here in her house. She leaves to go to the grocery store. I I mean, heart of gold, yeah, heart of gold lady, just and I ended up having great lunch, great conversation with them. But it's just like that is a I felt like I've experienced something that is a is a dying culture or dying concept of just entertaining for lack of a better word, hospitality.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yeah, yeah, it's well, and one thing that I do love about our church, it's Palo Alto Church of Christ on 231 for anybody that's interested or curious.

SPEAKER_03 38:34

All the Venezuelan listeners, if you ever in a country, uh Vietnam, Vietnam, that's it.

SPEAKER_06 38:38

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

But one thing that I do love about our church is we love people. And the first time that we walked into Palo Alto, before we had even we had even spoken to anybody, I looked at Ben and I said, something's different. Something's different about this. And and just I I didn't mean to go into all this, but I will. So we met Mr. Bob Sullivan. He was the first person that we met, Mr. Bubblegum Bob. He would he would sit out with the the bubblegum and pass out bubblegum to everybody. And he introduced us to Mr. Kenny Payne, who was the preacher at the time. And Kenny Payne walks up to me and he says, You're Alan Phillips girl. So yes, sir. And he and my dad are friends. And then we get to talking, and Mr. Kenny actually like he taught us chapel, like when we were growing up. So like I had like memories that I didn't know that it was him kind of thing. So that was really great. But I like immediately it was just Miss Kathy Harrison and Miss Betty Bain, just everybody just immediately just embraced us. And that that is one thing that I do love about our church. And what was really funny was the first Sunday that y'all came to visit, I didn't know that y'all were coming. And and I never even met you at this point. And but I walked into the building and our preacher Matthew comes up to me and he says, Hey, there's this really great couple. I just met them. Can you come talk to them? And I said, Yeah, absolutely. And it was y'all.

SPEAKER_06 40:28

And I was like, Kevin and Kevin and Rachel.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

So yeah, so it was so funny because I was like, Oh, it's Kyle. So it's Kim. So so I I just really love that. That like I was so excited when y'all started coming, and we have just fallen in love with y'all and your boys. Your boys are so sweet.

unknown 40:53

All right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 40:54

Well, we we've heard some of Kyle's story too on this, and and and I don't Rachel, I don't know what your experience is on this, but uh as far as some negatives, you know, some things that we say church hurt has become a big kind of concept. That's church burn, church hurt. And you don't have to be specific, I'm just looking for in general, like what are some what are some ways and things that if if you've experienced it in cow, if you want to tell me like what what in what ways and what uh how have you experienced any kind of like that quote unquote church hurt or church burn? Some negative qualities of church that you've experienced.

SPEAKER_05 41:41

I don't know that I never necessarily have any like negative connotations towards churches. I think like some of the ones that we tried out, there were just some like icky things.

SPEAKER_08 41:52

You know, they're just not for you. Yeah. Right. But nothing like you felt negative.

SPEAKER_05 41:57

For somebody, no, not necessarily. I mean, obviously, like the the money thing is kind of a big thing where it's like, you know, you're not giving us this much and that stuff. And you know, the ones that do memberships and stuff, it's kind of weird. I don't know, they just kind of give me the the heapy jeebies and a little icky. But not necessarily anything specifically from like anybody or anything. I feel like I had like the church that I grew up in was pretty good. I liked it quite a bit. I think there's been some things that have come out later that I was like, oh, I didn't know about that. But I was a kid and you know teenager and I was focused on what we were doing. I'm worried about what the adults were doing. So and I think I mean for the best of life. Oh, definitely. We went through a different few different youth pastors and there was some like weird stuff like with that, but I don't know that I found out all the details on like if there was anything shady there, but I'm with you.

SPEAKER_08 42:56

I feel like there's some stuff that I was shielded from too growing up. Yeah, that I don't know all the details. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And and if you could remind us, Kyle, some of the stuff like qualities or just in general terms, some of the negative experiences that you you've had.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Well, I grew up in a church that was very judgmental. Uh and more so just made you feel like it really really oh man gosh, and the off chance my mom listens to this, I'm gonna have like some serious explaining to do. But I've done this before, but the church I grew up in, my my mom and my stepdad were paying members. And the pastor would not let them get married at the church, or he would not marry them because it was their second wedding. And that's the kind of stuff we're dealing with here. It was it was really just a lot of that. There were people there that had lifelong role models. Larry Granger, he's an officer here locally. Fan fantastic gentleman. So I did. Uh-oh. Someone's screaming back there. I guess the qualities that I was looking for in a church, and I did have a checklist. Nothing too big. Nothing too small. I wanted to feel welcome, but I didn't want to feel like a spectacle. And it kind of goes to the big and too small thing, right? Like when you go to a church that's too big, nobody's gonna like nobody notices the new people. Yeah. Except for the people that we knew that invited us, but other than that, nobody nobody noticed we were new. And then we go to the church too small.

SPEAKER_05 44:40

Nobody greet us or anything. It was kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

And like the whole congregation turns and looks and notices there's a new person. Yeah. And the people that invited us to that church, the sweetest, sweetest people to the small church. And uh and it was a great church. Nothing wrong with the church itself. It just didn't check our boxes, or my boxes, rather. I don't I wanted to meet church is about one thing and one thing only. Like everything else that happens is bonus. The relationship you can create with people and all you know, all the fun stuff that you know connecting through podcasting, like like we've done, and obviously we work together, but I I I'd like to believe even if we didn't, we we'd still would have found a way to do this. You would have found a way to get to me somehow. It that stuff's bonus, but the the one goal of church is to preach the word of God and the life of Christ and pull people closer to that, get people to understand that and build people's relationship with God through knowing and understanding. And that's always been my thing. Like we don't we we don't need alternate goals. One of the churches that we were trying out did a whole 30-minute thing at the beginning uh where they played a video by Casey DeSantis talking about how medicinal marijuana should not be on the ballot and we should vote against it. Telling you how to vote. And I am I I am a conservative male, okay? Like I I I am uh So what's your problem? So I know like that, you know, especially uh when we do talk religion, like nine I would say, you know, most Christians do lean to the right. And so like, yes, I didn't necessarily agree with the with the overall thing, but like some of the stuff they were saying, yes, I feel the same way. However, why are we doing this here? That's not why we're here. We're not we're not gathered today to talk politics, we're gathered today to talk about God. Like I'm I'm here.

SPEAKER_08 46:37

That's your first impression, too.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

Yes, so for me, that's yeah, that's our first. That's was that our first or second?

SPEAKER_05 46:42

I think it was the second time that we went. The first time he talked a lot about tithing and yeah, and that so the second so I had him switched.

SPEAKER_03 46:49

Yeah, second one was one of two.

SPEAKER_08 46:52

Come coming back, just that's good too. Give everybody a sandwich.

SPEAKER_05 46:56

We might have gone three times. I don't know. We went maybe a few different times. Because Carson liked the youth area, and it was I mean, it was a bigger church, so they had like a second story where the kids were and they could come down the slide and they had big playgrounds and stuff. So for the children it was it was really nice.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

But we we don't take the kids the first time. We did we did take them the second time.

SPEAKER_08 47:20

I remember that when the first time y'all y'all visited with us and it's like where where are the kids? And it was almost like a first date. Like we don't introduce the kids on the first date. It was a weird diagram. I like that. I think it's good.

SPEAKER_05 47:33

Because if we are gonna walk into somewhere and if we don't think it's okay, and you know what, we don't know what they have for the kids if they're gonna have to sit in with us, but we need to be like mentally prepared for if I'm gonna have to chase my three-year-old around in the service.

SPEAKER_08 47:47

So when if they latch onto something and just get attached, and you can see like this isn't gonna be a good place for us, then you have to go through that too. It is it is like dating.

SPEAKER_05 47:59

Yeah, it really is.

SPEAKER_08 48:00

I mean, you're just was and so one thing that you and you led with this was judgmental. And I and I think this is a very important thing to to really kind of dig into is like you you I mean you believe in accountability, right? And and and how that plays a role with the church. So what it and especially with your experience and and and everything you guys have gone through, so what do you see as judgmental versus accountability? Like, how do you separate those two things?

SPEAKER_03 48:31

Judgmentalism, I I kind of just leak link everything into one weird little category where it's all the way down to like what you're wearing to church. Like I've showed up to our church with floral shirts, shorts, and flip-flops. Whereas the church I grew up in one time came to my dad and said, We like we prefer our men to wear suits here. That kind of thing. So all the way down to that.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Now, we don't wear suits, but we will judge you on some of those floral shirts. I'm just maybe not out loud. Some of them have been good.

SPEAKER_08 49:05

Some of them have been a mess, I'll be honest. But but like every floral shirt is equal.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

But nobody's coming to me and saying like you can't wear that here. Right. You know what I mean? Like or saying like you shouldn't wear that here. There's a priority to some of this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

We just want you there.

SPEAKER_03 49:24

I'm almost testing it, actually, if I'm being 100% honest.

SPEAKER_05 49:27

Well, and waiting for somebody to say something. Yeah. But I feel like a church should be somewhere where if a homeless person who hasn't showered in three days or you know, however long, it's probably longer than three days if they're homeless, to be honest. But if they wanted to find a place to go to church and they just needed Jesus and they needed God to be able to make it through another day, if they were searching and hurting, and if they walked into that church, I feel like our church would have been welcoming just like anybody else. But I feel like a church should be like that. That should be a place, it's a place for sinners and the people that are down and needing to be brought back up. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 50:10

On the flip side, what does accountability look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 50:15

That's a tricky one because I think the accountability be comes mostly from within.

SPEAKER_06 50:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

Sorry. Making sure that you're the not only there to be there, like uh I call them paper Christians. Like obviously we we do come like a a large reason we come to church, it's not the large reason, but a large reason we come to church is because we built these relationships and we are excited to see everybody. But we don't go to church because of that. And I think that that's where accountability comes in. You go to church because you know you need to. Not just to see your friends. Yeah, not not just to uh that it not to be a paper Christian, not to say like not to keep up appearances. Right. Like the the the football player that's there to get a paycheck, but he like he doesn't play, like he shows up to the games in uniform, but he doesn't really like doesn't play because he doesn't want to play. I don't know if that's how that that's a probably a terrible analogy, but I mean No, I mean I can't I think I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_08 51:12

I know and I honestly I think I think you're right on with the relationships part. I think the relationship is and we've talked about before as far as God, you know, God is relationship, God is love, and if you have the Trinity, that is relational, that is relationship, and that's such a big part of it. And we've talked about it in previous episodes, like you know, I struggle. It's either the Corinthian letters or or Romans, I think, where Paul talks about, you know, the the church is the the one the one of the verses you hear a lot is not forsaking the assembly. In that same verse, he talks about what the church is, and it is to stir up good works and love with one another, like encourage one another and stir up love and good works, and that's relationship. That's that's part of and I think that's really where accountability comes from. Just kind of go back to that, because I think making a there is a judgment the Bible talks about both, judgmental and being accountable to one another. And you know, uh, and and I get where you're coming from with the judgmental part, and I think that a lot of that comes with prioritizing what is worth, you know, drawing a line. And you know, where where are those very important things that you need to take a stand on? And you know, it's like accountability is you can hold someone accountable by still it stirring up love and good works. And I think it's all about the approach. I'm coming to you uh what you're wearing because I I'm judging your appearance and I think it needs to fit this standard, or am I coming to you and it somehow uh it's hard using that example. That's probably not the best example, but am I approaching you with the intent of love and good works?

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Well, and this is just my opinion. I think it's all about the heart, and it is the intent behind it is that I you know, I think judgmentalism is very negative because it comes from a place of not to be too churchy, but meanness. So, you know, like it's just plain mean. But like it, if my daughter's dragging a suitcase outside, okay, apparently she's done. Um but I I feel like like some of some of our friends that go to church with us, like it if Stephanie Stokes or Summer Livingston or or you know Lakin or somebody came up to me and we need to talk, I know that it's coming from a place of love and like hey, like we're seeing something's off or you know, whatever. So I I don't think that you know it it's it's two different things, yeah, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_08 54:05

Well, and and Rachel, I think you you also hit it on the head too, as far as showing Christ, being examples of Christ, looking to Christ as you know, how did he treat, you know, like the the Pharisees bringing the the adulterous woman to him and saying, you know, judge her, and he ends up judging all of them. You know, he who is sinless casts the first stone. He but so he's being equal across the board. And two, I think one of the instructions that he gives the woman too is very important is go and sin no more. He's holding her accountable. Like, yes, you've sinned, go and sin no more, I think is a very important part of that story. So there's the accountability part that he shows us, but you're right, it's like he does it people that he approached people that his apostles were kind of like, why is he talking to that person? Why, you know, and I think that and when you brought up the homeless person that you know being always looking for that opportunity to show Christ and and show love, which is the ultimate, you know, love God, the greatest command, love God with all your heart, your soul, your mind, your strength. And then the second just like it's love your neighbor as yourself. And I think those are the two things you really gotta keep in mind, whether you're when you're a part of a church, whether it's members you've known a long time or new members coming in, how however you're you're approaching a neighbor, that's I think that's where you gotta start from. But love is a tricky thing because it can entail a lot of different aspects. It's not always just fuzzy wuzzy, you know, cuddly.

SPEAKER_05 55:46

And it can show where your heart's at and your walk and all that. I mean, it really um I don't know what I'm trying to say. But it can it can just show like if your heart is full of negative, you know, things you're not going to be willing to help and show God in that way that you really need to.

SPEAKER_08 56:11

And that goes right back to what Lacey was saying, you know, it's you have to start with accountability from yourself. Uh at least for me, I've I've learned this. I have to be accountable to myself. I have to get the the plank in my own eye. Yeah, you know, I've got to uh I've gonna need to be willing and able to address that before I address anything. And then and uh I've spoken with Matthew, our preacher, about this too, and he or he's spoken about it as far as like you know that approach is you when you come from that heart posture like you're talking about, you're you're not just going to condemn someone, you're going to really just trying to help them and hear from them. Yeah, and work work with them, walk with them, not drag them on.

SPEAKER_03 56:58

And you know, the the the appearance thing is like also, you know, yes, I wear that stuff, it's bright, extra, colorful, but also that's what I've got.

SPEAKER_08 57:08

You don't you're also six seven? Six five. Six five. Oh man, it's not you're a walking billboard as it is. So whatever you're wearing is gonna be.

SPEAKER_05 57:20

So you might as well make it bright and have a look at it. People are gonna stare at you anyway.

SPEAKER_03 57:23

You might as well make them give them something to look at.

SPEAKER_05 57:25

And for some reason, they that's what they sell in like tall kind of clothes is like the most obnoxious.

SPEAKER_03 57:31

But that's my closet, man. That's what I have. And and to me, like I hate where well I say I hate like doing it, but like my work clothes are my work clothes, so I don't want to wear those to church on Sunday too. So I try to kind of differentiate between what I have and I wear what I've got. I those are my button-down shirts. I can wear a t-shirt. I mean, I've got wrestling shirts, Florida State shirts, and all kinds of stuff, but I try to at least wear a button-down. But I, you know, it's what I've got, it's how I come, it's how I leave. And uh, you know, I'm not worried I'm not worried about anybody else's attire around me. I even uh it was funny, Robbie Livingston was wearing flip-flops a couple weeks ago too, and I was a little worried about wearing flip-flops in the church. And then Robbie, who's just like one of the one of the worst human beings on the face of planet Earth, Robbie Livingston. My goodness. You know, but uh really Robbie is just an incredible, incredible man. Strong, strong walk with God, strong family, strong leader of men. And he walks by and I pointed his feet, I'm like, flip-flops, Rachel. Not a sinner, told you.

SPEAKER_04 58:37

Somebody else is like me.

SPEAKER_03 58:39

More sinners.

SPEAKER_08 58:42

Well, and that's the thing to remember. We're all sinners. Yeah, yeah. And I know we've said it before, and I've heard it so many said so many ways. You know, the church is it's not a hotel for saints, it's a hospital for sinners, and that's so so important to remember. I do want to get some actual scripture. I know we've kind of been paraphrasing scripture a little bit here and there. There's two places in the Bible Paul makes very convicting statements when writing to churches as far as like how to treat one another. You know, one is more about holding one another accountable. You see somebody doing that something wrong, you need to address it and and lift each other up. And then there's another one, Romans. I'll read just a little section of it. You know, the people he's writing to the people who were dealing and trying to navigate, you know, this eating foods that have been sacrificed. I believe this is the one there, eating foods that have been sacrificed to idols. Is that right? Is it wrong? You know, they're looking for a standard and and all this, and so he just kind of gives them a little bit of common sense here as far as, you know, this is Romans 14, sermon verse 20, do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the person who eats and causes offense. It is good not to eat meat, or it is good not to eat meat, or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother or sister stumbles. The faith which you have have as your own conviction before God. Happy is the one who does not condemn himself and what he approves, but the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because uh his eating is not from faith, and whatever is not from faith is a sin. And and basically what he's getting at is the the the heart, like you're talking about, what is the the genuine nature of the actions of this person and the stuff he brings up is still going today, you know, that this this whole, you know, should we eat meat, should we not eat meat, you know, what should we drink? Should we drink wine, or you know, some of the stuff that that you know, but basically what he's saying too is kind of what we were just talking about is starting from a pla your own personal place. Am I doing something that's causing someone else to stumble? If if me eating this is causing a conflict or drinking this or doing saying this, whatever, is it causing a needless conflict? I I think that's where he says in another another instance is creating needless con conflict. And so I think it's twofold. You start from your your personal standpoint and and also the approach. I think those are the two main things. How are you approaching it and then the personal standpoint?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

Well, and I would just like to take a second to remind us at the table and anybody who is still listening that if you have ever been church hurt, that's people. That's not God, that is people. And a lot of times it's well-meaning people. That that's when it gets really hard is it's it's well-meaning people.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

Because they think they're yeah, they think they're doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

Right. But we're human, we're imperfect, and let's just get real. Sometimes well-meaning people, all people, we just do dumb things. And so so just try to remember that that if you've ever I feel like most everybody has experienced some form of church hurt, but it always comes back to people. People are are imperfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:50

Amen, by the way.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:53

Completely agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:53

100%. And that I'll also take some some realizing over time as well. Some reflecting, I should say. And I've learned that too. Like th those people, like, I don't think they really intended. They obviously didn't intend to hurt us. They thought they were doing what was what was right and what they were raised into. And hey, like maybe maybe we all find out one day that like they it was right. Right. But um you know, how you make people feel is very important.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:21

Absolutely. Yeah, because I mean at the end of the day, what we're doing is we're we're trying to navigate our relationship with God, seeking God who is love, who is relational, and we're trying to build relationships. So but we're trying to build like God is perfect, we're trying to build a relationship with a perfect being and through relationship with imperfect beings. And one thing that you brought up as far as like your your experiences with visiting other churches and going multiple times, even though they didn't really, lack of a better way of saying it in press the first time, there were maybe some flags and some concerns, but you went back and did again. That's such a crucial thing, not just in trying to find a church, but being part of a church, being part of a a relational family when something doesn't go your way, if something doesn't go right, or even if something is is is happening that you might have some concerns with, really trying to navigate that, not just say my way or the highway, either fix this or I'm gone, or something is said and you on a whim just you know flash out or leave. It's you know, we've all done that, I think, in one sense with family. You know, we've had those experiences where we get on each other's nerves or we've said something we shouldn't have said, but we're still family at the end of the day. We're still and and we we talk about like investing in a church, investing in that relationship where I'm imperfect, recognizing I'm imperfect, and and maybe I said something I shouldn't have said, you've said something you shouldn't have said, but just staying there and and working it out because at the end of the day it's serving a perfect God, you know, and and make creating a relationship with Him. When you um, you know, like John tells us, if you love God and hate your neighbor, th then you're a liar. Because you you can't love God and hate your neighbor, and you know, vice versa, uh especially. But oh man, there was one more thing I was gonna say about that too, but something.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

I I was just Ben and I have had these kind of conversations, and I know that y'all y'all had them too, uh when it comes to a church choosing which hill to die on.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

And so like when little things come up when if they change the carpet, I that is not a reason to leave in my book. Not at all.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:53

When did we get carpet?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

Did they not learn anything after Michael? Um, so yeah, so so you know, but I I do yes, pick your battles and like just because we we've had those kind of conversations because I I've I've always said that like if we ever go to a church that's not teaching scripture, if they are just teaching just opinions or feelings or whatever, we're gone.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:24

Yeah. And I think a lot of like especially with Palo Alto, like the first because we came like three times in a row, one time without the boys, and then the next time we we decided to bring them because we were like, okay, there's a good children's area. And which you took us to. Yes. Thank you. But the sermon, I feel like the sermon is like the most important part. Right. If it feels like God is speaking to you directly through that, then I think you're probably there. Like that was a lot of it. Because the third visit, second third visit, he played a clip from inside out, and I was like, oh, this is it. And then he was talking about anxiety, and I was like, I don't remember ever talking about anxiety in church or those type of you know, meant like mental health in general was never spoken about in church. And it was like, and that's a massive thing that both of us especially deal with, and it for him to like speak about it and then of course bring Disney into it, I was like, I was sold. This is for me. I love that.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:35

Yeah, one thing that you were talking about, I forget how you just phrased it, but basically to put a word on it, endurance, long suffering. And that's one thing that I I'll uh comes to mind when I'm talking about my wife, is her long suffering. I will credit her with so much uh long suffering. She puts up with so much with a smile on her face uh while doing it. And and she's my wife, I'm gonna notice that I'm gonna appreciate that, obviously. But but we go we she's she's my family, and then you switch over to a church family, there is endurance, long suffering, perseverance. All of these are synonyms are uh you know for what w how we are to be relational. Just to kind of go go back a little bit to that as far as like not acting on a whim or emo over emotionally. There are standards like Lacey brought up. With there are standards that I think we need to identify personally, we need to identify with our spouse. Yeah. Uh you know, what are these hills, like Lacey said, that uh, you know, I will die on that are very important to me. I think it's very important. Right. Yes. It's important to identify them because they can change it before you start do it before you start shopping.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:56

Yes. And then you can adjust as you like are actually in it. You know, you'll try this church and you're like, oh, I really didn't appreciate this, or I wasn't a big fan of this. It's like, okay, I can handle it, or maybe it's like, ooh, nope. I didn't realize that was a thing, and I'd know that was happening in churches, so we can't do this one again.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:17

Like some things will hit you in the face like that, where it just I don't know if it's like discernment, like your discernment will really just Well, yeah, that was the that absolutely absolutely because that was the next thing is discerning your when you establish what the what are those standards personally? What are those standards between you know my me and my wife both have because I might have and I do I think have a couple standards that she that might be different from hers, right? But we have unified standards and because you have to go together, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:46

Yeah, it would be ideal.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:47

You have to start by identifying it, but then like you said, I think you need to work on those because look going back, it it starts from a personal place as far as how important is the standard, how rational is the standard, how biblical is the standard, because my standards used to be a lot higher. Well, I say higher, used to be a lot more, and then the more I read scripture and the the less judgmental I try to be and more accountable I try to be, I've realized I've I've I've whittled them down to their most I what I say is their most essential and most important. I think that's the key, the most important because you know when we and I and I've mentioned this time and time again, because I I just love how you know in Peter in his second letter he talks about you know wanting to be partakers of a divine nature, of a of God's nature. You know, start with faith and supplement to your faith, virtue into your virtue, knowledge into your knowledge. Endurance. Endurance is this described as steadfastness is another word as another synonym. Steadfastness is another that's something you would want from your wife, is something you should give to your wife, but also to one another, brothers and sisters. So I'm gonna quit talking y'all's ear off here.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:08

I think that's wow.

SPEAKER_08 1:11:12

Well, and I think that leads us to maybe the last point and and just as crucial, forgiveness. Because that was one thing I was gonna get to earlier is w when you when you react emotionally and you cut those ties, you sever those ties, you sever the ability to reconcile. But in my experience, and maybe you guys will can attest to this too, when you create that separation between you and someone else, you're you're you're not having a dialogue with them. So now all that anger that separated you starts to turn into bitterness. And that for me, bitterness is a key word that's that will fester and fester and fester until and it and it it separates you from that person, it starts to separate you from God because like I said, you know, you have to love God and your and your neighbor, but it it takes you away from forgiveness. It it prevents you from forgiveness, which is ultimately what we're what we're seeking from God.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:18

Sometimes, and I think uh Rachel actually what maybe one of the things if if she was the list, the things she didn't necessarily love about me sometimes is that I am I think coming off that message this might be the wrong way to put it, but too forgiving at times. I have I have given the you know the fourth, fifth, sixth chances to some people that don't necessarily deserve it.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:44

But I'm also I come at it from the protective life aspect of it, and you're coming at it as like the person that's actually dealing with it, but I just that's a very important dynamic to that set. Yeah. I care about you, you care about them, and I'm like, no, they hurt you, I don't like it. That's so much harder because I I'm like I'm with you because I feel like maybe I can forgive a little quicker if someone is and I feel like someone's wronged me or there's any kind of somebody that you love and really care about, it's very hard to forgive them because they won't apologize to you because you didn't do it they didn't do it to you, so they don't think like that it affects anybody but the person that it's done to. But really, I mean if you have somebody in that like position in your life that you know is protective over you, they they don't get the apology, so it makes it a lot harder to forgive.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:43

There is a fine line to be drawn between forgive and forget.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:49

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:52

Actually, kind of going through this right now with my stepsister. Not to get like too deep into the weeds of that story, but she she's a mess. And w we're you know, we're she she's always just been a mess, and I've been with her essentially my entire life. My my parents got divorced relatively young. I remarried in two thousand and one. No, two thousand years. You were relatively young. I was very young. I was uh ten years old when my dad got remarried, ten or eleven. So I've known my stepsister for twenty plus years. And I love her. And I do. And I forgive her for all the dumb things she's done. Whether it's to us or to herself or more importantly to her children, you know, my niece, most notably. And I forgive her. And I'll always love her. But forgetting and letting yourself fall into the same trap, those are th those are different ideas. And I I think that's hard to deliver without the uh with without going into the specifics, but there are very many stories like that where it's like, hey, I will always forgive you and I still love you, however, you can't I can't let you sit at my table.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:08

That's kind of what it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:10

And Ben, to your point, I I love the the saying about like holding a grudge is like drinking poison but expecting the other person to die.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:20

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:20

Um, so that bitterness will eat you alive if you're not careful, but at the same time, boundaries are a wonderful thing. And I do believe that you can forgive someone, but place some healthy boundaries around that relationship, especially when you're trying to protect your family and your kids. And that that's our job. That's our job as parents is to protect our kids.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:50

And I found in certain situations where you know you the forgiveness is more for yourself because of that grudge. You have to let that bitterness and the dis like that awful feeling of holding that hatred towards somebody, or depending on what the situation is, you don't have to forgive them to their face. You can I, you know, you can forgive and talk to God and you give that to God and you say, I forgive them, you take this away from me. This is too much for me to handle and bear. I have to like you have to let it out of your heart, and God will take that away. And I found that, you know, to be easiest some in some situations where you know you don't necessarily want to have anything to do with that person or talk to that person about that situation again. And but you you have to do it for yourself.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:51

It's like your soul will for like well thank you. It's soul crushing to hold something so deeply, you know, for a long time. It just like you said, it eats away. Yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:10

As we're starting to wrap this up, um I'm I'm not gonna get into a long diatribe, but I I I do I do want to just I'm gonna end with a with a another scripture here. But I do want to say something, and I think maybe this is uh something we will dive into deeper in another episode. Uh you guys have heard, you know, the the verse where Jesus says it's easier for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. It's impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Like it's it's more likely that a camel to enter the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I am going somewhere with this. Stay with me. Uh the that say that phrase alone, I've done a lot of like dive into that phrase because there's been a there's been a lot of theory around what did he actually say, what did he actually mean. And a lot of the some of those theories they start to change the the the point that he was trying to make. They change the nature of the saying, the phrase. In my research on that, there was I I came across one one researcher who made the statement that I love this is where I'm trying to get to, is basically they they dissected all the theories and came away with what he said is what he said. It is impossible for a camel to enter the eye of the needle, just like it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I know I'm paraphrasing that multiple ways now, but they they landed at what Jesus said was radical and should remain so. And I want to keep that phrase in mind because I'm gonna go to another place here. The the Sermon on the Mount, the the blesseds, I'll end, I'll end with the final two. I just want to keep that in mind, like what Jesus we you hear a lot of times, don't judge, we shouldn't judge but, or we shouldn't do this but and everything that comes before but doesn't matter, right? So we're we're so guilty of that. You hear that a lot of times, you know. I know we're not supposed to do this, but whether it's as a church or individually, whatever, just hear the words they're radical and should remain so. And so Matthew 5, starting verse 10, I'll just end it here. I feel like this is a good summation of all the stuff we've talked about. Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in your reward in heaven is great. For in the the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. And if you go on to I think verse starting verse 21 on to about maybe 26, that's another place I would encourage our listeners to go to read. Uh I won't read the whole thing because it's it would require a lot more time to explain the context and everything. I would encourage everybody to research that. Chapter 5, starting verse 21. I'm gonna skip around a little bit, starting verse 22. But I but I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court, and whoever says to their his brother, you good for nothing, shall be answerable to the Supreme Court, and whoever says you fool shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. And uh those concepts it goes on and on, and and I I just encourage everybody to kind of go into that too. I think that's very pertinent to to what we're talking about and and how we should treat one another, which is at the end of the day, what we're talking about, whether it's church, work, wherever you are, but especially the church, the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God, I think is is very important.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:21

But amen. Yeah. I was trying to better myself, like it's almost like it's in red font.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:28

I can't get out of my own way sometimes. I was trying to just stamp this episode with a verse, and then I just kept going. So I apologize. Go go read the Sermon on the Mount, guys. There's a lot of good stuff in there.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:38

Um great stuff, great stuff. Yeah, I mean, and it lays it all out too. Uh that's so just now getting into because for all those reasons I've blocked out biblical knowledge for a long time. Anything to do with the Bible, especially the specifics of like I never knew what the Sermon on the Mount was.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:55

Ironically, you haven't got to season two yet, have you? Don't get too attached to Judas. Don't tell me it was Judas, was it?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:02

Was it Judas? Don't tell me. Wait, he's waiting?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:09

No, man, I forgot what I was saying. Sorry. Ironically, you know what's terrible is this the first time I ever heard the Sermon on the Mount was in an episode of South Park. That's I mean I'm admitting that here. That's where I had learned like that the Sermon on the Mount was a real thing. Like that that's where it happened. Was basically an episode of South Park, and then I watched the breakdown of it, and they were like, that was a real thing, the Sermon on the Mount. And I'm like, no way. Like, wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:37

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:39

Fantastic. So now getting into it, and especially like I have a new living translation Bible, and I think yours might be doing the same thing here, but it lays out like Jesus talks about divorce, Jesus talks about this, and there's like little sections and everything, and I I've fallen in love. It's really cool. I it's I'm still not there to where I can quote like where and like where everything is, obviously, because there's so much.

SPEAKER_08 1:23:06

I'm still still there. I can paraphrase, but I can't tell you exactly where it's.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:15

It's like I can tell you what it is, I can't tell you where it is. I think it's Isaiah 53. It's and the yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all. I think that's like the most powerful to talk about the crucifixion, talk about what pierced for our rebellion. That whole line right there, and I'll show you why after the podcast, but get you into skillet a little bit.

SPEAKER_08 1:23:38

Rachel, do you have a favorite verse? It's okay if you don't. I I've been surprised by our profiles of faith project. Another one.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:47

I had I had one that I really liked. And I she's having a great time. I really liked it, and I followed it in high school, and I even put it on my class ring. It was a psalm, I think it's like 23, 23, something like that. It was one of the psalms, but I can't, for the life of me, find it again. And I don't, and I don't know where my class ring is to like look at it and see what it was. But I know like the psalms are just so empowering, and I really like that.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:14

Yeah. Well, oh man, there's something else I was gonna totally lost it. Thanks for joining us tonight, Tom. So glad to have you back. Thank you, Rachel, for keeping him contained somewhat tonight.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:34

I don't know how well it works, but control case.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:38

After all the stuff you guys have been through, I'm personally, I don't know about Lacey, I'm personally grateful to have you guys in our life.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:46

Gratitude.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:49

Segway. Yeah. Let's talk about gratitude. No. But all of that, the fact that you guys have stayed with it, you're an example. You're an example to me, if anybody whether you are to anybody else, but you're an example to me of of not just staying in that hole and and wallering in it.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:08

So somehow we're still married after all of that. I don't know. And honestly, like it I know a lot of people that would have challenged like a lot marriage-wise.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:17

I wonder how I would have handled it.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:18

I don't feel like we faltered, to be honest. I mean, there was a few like little spats here and there because the stress. I was mad at you. Playing softball. Yeah. He's can't even go play softball.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:36

What about church softball day? That that doesn't count.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:38

That is an exceptional thing. You can watch.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:41

Oh no, I'll play it.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:43

Well, thanks again, guys, for being here and and filling in for Taylor and Sabrina. We miss you guys. We're hoping they'll be back here soon. Can I do one thing? No.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:53

I think this episode is Memorial Day weekend, if I'm not mistaken. So it'll be long gone by then. But happy early anniversary to my lovely wife. Our anniversary is this coming Monday, May the 4th. We'll both be working. We're gonna try to get some time together this weekend, but our seventh wedding anniversary, this coming Monday. Happy anniversary, my love. I love you.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:18

We all got married on Star Wars Day.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:21

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:22

Okay, we're about to have some uh off-microphone conversations.

SPEAKER_08 1:26:28

It was epic. We thank you guys for for joining in and listening and being part of the small group. If you have any questions, anything you want us to discuss, anything you disagree with, please let us know. You know, I'd we definitely want to hear from you no matter what, and um, you know, hopefully reconcile any differences if we do have any. But uh, especially if you have questions, uh if you want to connect with Kyle or Rachel in particular, you just reach out to us. All of our uh all the ways to reach us is in the description of the podcast. But most welcome, guys. Thanks for sticking around and all the fun.