SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Summit Church Podcast.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us as we share weekly sermons and teachings from Summit Church in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee.
SPEAKER_00: Our prayer is that today's message encourages your faith and helps you grow in your relationship with Jesus.
SPEAKER_00: Check out our website at summitchurchtn.com.
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, and we pray this message encourages you today.
SPEAKER_02: Then I will circle back to the beginning of the chapter to highlight some stuff that I know that we need to highlight concerning a verse there in the beginning, but we're going to progress through the chapter.
SPEAKER_02: It's only 11 verses, and then we'll circle back to make sure that we get everything that we need in order for that.
SPEAKER_02: So, and I got I got$7 fancy, so I don't have to keep climbing the stage.
SPEAKER_02: Amazon,$7 fancy.
SPEAKER_02: I'm officially, I don't know what I am officially, but I got a laser pointer.
SPEAKER_02: Either that or a cat toy.
SPEAKER_02: I don't know which one, however, you want to look at it.
SPEAKER_02: It can be both.
SPEAKER_02: Alright.
SPEAKER_02: So I want to uh again kind of give you a highlight of Revelation 4.
SPEAKER_02: You know, we've gone through and understood the seven churches.
SPEAKER_02: Now four begins the third section, and it shifts from earth to heaven.
SPEAKER_02: It goes from the churches to the throne of God, and it goes showing Christ's evaluation from the church to God's sovereign rule over all things.
SPEAKER_02: So the pattern is this.
SPEAKER_02: Now, chapter one through three was the earth, we're now shifting to heaven.
SPEAKER_02: Two and three was the churches, we're shifting to the throne of God.
SPEAKER_02: And two and three was the evaluation of the church.
SPEAKER_02: Now we're shifting to his sovereign rule over all things.
SPEAKER_02: So this is the basis of the foundation as we begin to get started here.
SPEAKER_02: Before judgment is released upon the earth, John is first shown the throne of God.
SPEAKER_02: He is shown the worship of heaven, the authority of God, the holiness of God, and the sovereignty of God.
SPEAKER_02: This chapter is going to remind us that before we can ever understand judgment, tribulation, or even prophecy, we must first understand who is seated on the throne.
SPEAKER_02: The throne of God is going to be the center of heaven, the center of authority, and the center of all coming judgment.
SPEAKER_02: So this chapter reveals four major realities.
SPEAKER_02: Number one, John's call into heaven.
SPEAKER_02: John's call into heaven.
SPEAKER_02: Number two, the throne and glory of God.
SPEAKER_02: The throne and glory of God.
SPEAKER_02: Number three, the worship surrounding the throne.
SPEAKER_02: The worship surrounding the throne.
SPEAKER_02: And number four, heaven's decoration of God's holiness and worthiness.
SPEAKER_02: Heaven's decoration of God's holiness and worthiness.
SPEAKER_02: Revelation chapter four, verse one says, After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.
SPEAKER_02: So after these things is a phrase that is going to mark a prophetic transition.
SPEAKER_02: After these things is a repeat.
SPEAKER_02: If we remember from Revelation chapter 1, verse 19 in that study, it signals the movement into future events.
SPEAKER_02: John is now shifting from the present church age into this heavenly reality and encounter for him.
SPEAKER_02: And one of the first things that John sees is a door standing before him in heaven.
SPEAKER_02: Now, as you can see, this image that's on the screen, I'll go into a little bit of detail here in just a moment, but this is basically a description of the throne of God with the rainbow, the 24 elders, the seven representations of the Spirit, and what we're going to see in this, and you'll see what is being described here.
SPEAKER_02: So we see John is called into heaven, a voice like a trumpet says, Come up here.
SPEAKER_02: Now that door, though, that is standing open, it reveals that there's access, an invitation, and a divine revelation.
SPEAKER_02: That first voice, like a trumpet.
SPEAKER_02: Again, this calls back to Revelation chapter one, verse ten.
SPEAKER_02: The voice of Jesus is first heard.
SPEAKER_02: That trumpet gives us clarity with what it represents, gives authority, a summoning, or and or a divine announcement.
SPEAKER_02: Now, I know that you'll hear people, this is where people start really kind of trying to get dig deep into a lot of stuff, and they say it was an actual sound of a trumpet.
SPEAKER_02: You got people that say that.
SPEAKER_02: You got other people say his voice was just so loud, it was likened into a trumpet.
SPEAKER_02: And because John would use this type of energy and give you something to kind of understand what it was like, this is as we go forward, this is where a lot of people is going to try to make things out of nothing and make nothing out of things and so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_02: But this is how he describes it.
SPEAKER_02: Throughout the scripture, it is important to note that trumpets were used to gather God's people.
SPEAKER_02: We find this in the Old Testament many, many times.
SPEAKER_02: The ram's horn, the shofar, the trumpets, they'd blast, they would gather God's people together.
SPEAKER_02: They would also be used to announce a movement.
SPEAKER_02: And those trumpets, too, in the Old Testament, those are also in certain types of blast.
SPEAKER_02: There's long blast of the trumpet sound, there's real quick blast of a trumpet sound.
SPEAKER_02: All of those different types of blast signified something different.
SPEAKER_02: And the people knew that.
SPEAKER_02: Another way the trumpet was used was to prepare for battle, to advance, retreat, stand down, whatever the case may be, that would be one of those as well.
SPEAKER_02: But in here, we're seeing it as signaling some kind of divine activity.
SPEAKER_02: Jesus tells John, come up here.
SPEAKER_02: Now, many believers, I'll go ahead, we're gonna come back to this, but this is where many believers and theologians see that John's call to come up in Revelation 4 and 1 as a prophetic picture or a foreshadowing of the rapture of the church.
SPEAKER_02: Now, again, we're gonna go over this when we get back there, and we're gonna look at both sides of the argument, okay?
SPEAKER_02: So the thing that we need to understand right now, though, is John himself is not the rapture.
SPEAKER_02: We need to get that understood.
SPEAKER_02: He is talking about something that is, he's using to describe a sequence, and it's possibly meaning that it can have a double parallel meaning.
SPEAKER_02: So that voice like a trumpet also reminds us of another passage of scripture found in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, verses 16 and 17.
SPEAKER_02: When we look at 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, 16 and 17, it probably is a very familiar verse to many of you.
SPEAKER_02: You've heard it somewhere before.
SPEAKER_02: That the Lord descends and the trumpet of God sounds, and believers are caught up.
SPEAKER_02: Now, when we come back to this verse and we talk about rapture or rapture not, let's just go ahead and catch this and understand.
SPEAKER_02: No, the word rapture is not in any translation of the Bible.
SPEAKER_02: The word itself, the word rapture means to be caught up or seized away to be caught.
SPEAKER_02: That word is raptisio, and that's where we get that word rapture.
SPEAKER_02: So when you see that in 1 Thessalonians 4, 16 and 17, when it says they're caught up, that Greek word is rhaptesio.
SPEAKER_02: So I know that there's people that will argue and this and that.
SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes we waste our breath arguing over trivial things like that.
SPEAKER_02: Marijuana and LSD isn't in the Bible either, but I got enough sense to know that the Bible speaks about it.
SPEAKER_02: You know, and so there's things that we have to understand because I don't want us, we're gonna break all this down, and I'm not trying to prove an eschatological thought to you at this moment in time.
SPEAKER_02: Later in the year, we're definitely gonna dive deep into all those views.
SPEAKER_02: But I also want you to remember there are different types of different moments of raptures throughout Revelation, but in some ways, too, we have to recognize that Elijah was taken up.
SPEAKER_02: And that is, even though that is Hebrew, that terminology is very similar in the definition of what it means to be caught up.
SPEAKER_02: And we don't know about Enoch, how he was taken.
SPEAKER_02: All we know is he was here and then he was gone.
SPEAKER_02: And how that happened, we don't know.
SPEAKER_02: But John is suddenly in the presence of heaven.
SPEAKER_02: He's removed from the earth, he is now getting this heavenly um perspective and this transition that's going to happen.
SPEAKER_02: So immediately when he leaves Earth, everything is going to shift very quickly, and we're gonna see uh a lot of things that are going on here that surely John couldn't comprehend, and the way that he writes this stuff was the best of his ability at that time.
SPEAKER_02: Now, there is a thought historically, and theologians believe that he did purposely write this way, quote unquote, in code.
SPEAKER_02: And here's what I mean by that.
SPEAKER_02: He would have written things that Romans or other civilizations would have not understood, but Gentiles who were in Christ or Jews would get the understanding of what it was he was writing.
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02: So we understand that.
SPEAKER_02: So again, we're gonna see this shift from Revelation 4 all the way to 19, and one of the things, and again we're gonna come back, one of the things that where people will put their hat on for the rapture, the church is never mentioned again from this point forward.
SPEAKER_02: Revelation 4 all the way through 19, the church is never mentioned again.
SPEAKER_02: So that's important for those that will hinge everything on a uh pre-tribe rapture.
SPEAKER_02: The church is absent from the revelation or from relationship to the earth, it's no longer there.
SPEAKER_02: So there's a shift there.
SPEAKER_02: Now, we do also have to understand as we proceed forward, there is a difference between tribulation and wrath.
SPEAKER_02: And it's important because throughout the history of mankind, we have experienced persecution.
SPEAKER_02: Mankind has been persecuted.
SPEAKER_02: Mankind has endured tribulation, mankind has endured suffering.
SPEAKER_02: And there are a lot of people that will believe that the church is not appointed to God's wrath.
SPEAKER_02: But it is also important to recognize that tribulation and wrath are distinctly two different things.
SPEAKER_02: During the tribulation period, there will be a moment in time when the wrath of God is poured out.
SPEAKER_02: Why, in the midst of tribulations, the wrath poured out, poured out is because they're distinctively two different things.
SPEAKER_02: And we have to remember that and keep our eyes focused on that from the position of Jesus.
SPEAKER_02: Again, John is potentially aligning with some scripture or letters in that time.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, verse 9, and Romans chapter 5, verse 9.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Thessalonians 5 and 9, and Romans 5 and 9.
SPEAKER_02: I want to reiterate this again.
SPEAKER_02: I did this last week.
SPEAKER_02: We're going to go over it again.
SPEAKER_02: You cannot have the mentality that it is escape from difficulty.
SPEAKER_02: If you look at where we're going forward, that it's just escapism out of difficult times, whatever the case is, we're missing the point of the revelation of Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_02: So the emphasis is that God is preserving his people as we go forward.
SPEAKER_02: God remains faithful to his promises.
SPEAKER_02: So he preserves his people, he remains faithful to his promises, and God is going to distinguish between judgments upon the world and redemption for his people.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 2.
SPEAKER_02: Immediately I was in the spirit, and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and one sitting on the throne.
SPEAKER_02: Immediately.
SPEAKER_02: We'll get further along.
SPEAKER_02: We'll see the rainbow, we'll see the precious jewels, we'll see the floor, we'll see all this stuff here shortly.
SPEAKER_02: But we're going to see this all of a sudden.
SPEAKER_02: And John is going to be captivated by everything that he sees.
SPEAKER_02: The precious stones, the floor, the 24 elders, the angels, all these things is, and we have to take just a moment.
SPEAKER_02: And can you imagine not only being caught up there, but trying to put your eyes on everything that you're seeing and trying to comprehend what it is that you're seeing?
SPEAKER_02: And some things, I might, the rainbow, okay, I can comprehend that.
SPEAKER_02: This is just an illustration, we'll go back to that.
SPEAKER_02: This is just an illustration.
SPEAKER_02: Imagine John looking and seeing a lion with these wings, six wings and eyes all over it, then seeing the oxen and having eyes all over its wings, and one like a man, and one like an eagle, and trying to articulate what that is.
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't look like anything that's on the earth.
SPEAKER_02: There's nothing that it can possibly be.
SPEAKER_02: The first creature was like a lion, like a calf, had a face like that of a man, was like a flying eagle.
SPEAKER_02: And here we'll get to it in a little bit, but each of them having six wings, eyes full over the wings.
SPEAKER_02: That is a gnarly looking thing.
SPEAKER_02: And this is where my sense of humor kicks in, and I know my sense of humor is warped, but it's like I wonder if John just kind of looked over and said, Are you looking at me?
SPEAKER_02: Because this is this is some crazy stuff here.
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, this ain't precious moment angels.
SPEAKER_02: And this ain't the angels that we see in the little stores here in the trinket shops, and they're so beautiful, and this and that.
SPEAKER_02: These are some beings and creatures that are very, very unique.
SPEAKER_02: So we can go back to the other slide, please.
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
SPEAKER_02: The overall theme that we're going to see in this is that everything revolves around the throne of God.
SPEAKER_02: It's important to know that the throne is not empty.
SPEAKER_02: It means that God rules, He reigns, He is sovereign.
SPEAKER_02: And mostly and most important, I believe, God remains in complete authority regardless of the chaos that is on earth.
SPEAKER_02: We get when we begin here and we move forward, we get an understanding that the throne is going to represent a few things.
SPEAKER_02: Number one, it's going to represent government.
SPEAKER_02: Number two, it's going to represent authority.
SPEAKER_02: Number three, sovereignty.
SPEAKER_02: Number four, judgment.
SPEAKER_02: And number five, the rule.
SPEAKER_02: Revelation four is quickly reminding us that there is still an occupied throne in heaven.
SPEAKER_02: And until you and I see and know and settle that reality, that God is not only on the throne, he's also on the throne of our heart.
SPEAKER_02: We will always struggle in this life.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 3.
SPEAKER_02: And he who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sorta in appearance.
SPEAKER_02: And there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance.
SPEAKER_02: Now, God's not, I mean, John is not going to describe the actual features of the one sitting on the throne.
SPEAKER_02: But he's using this like Jasper Stone, a Sardis appearance.
SPEAKER_02: And he describes this brilliance and this glory and this radiance and this majesty of the ah presence of the throne.
SPEAKER_02: And the best way he could articulate it is that Jasper stone or that Sardis stone.
SPEAKER_02: It'd be kind of like today if we were going to articulate it by saying some kind of diamond that would that we're we're familiar with.
SPEAKER_02: But the interesting thing about it is when we look up these two stones, these two stones actually represent a few things.
SPEAKER_02: A Jasper stone and a Sardis stone represent purity, holiness, glory, and redemption.
SPEAKER_02: Now again, coming around the throne is that rainbow.
SPEAKER_02: So shout out what it represents.
SPEAKER_02: Give me something.
SPEAKER_02: God's promises.
SPEAKER_02: Covenant.
SPEAKER_02: What else?
SPEAKER_02: Who said something else?
SPEAKER_02: Alright, we would call that what?
SPEAKER_02: That's part of the covenant, that's part of the promise.
SPEAKER_02: A lot of people would call it God being full of grace, but it's actually his mercy.
SPEAKER_02: It reminds us the covenant, the promise, and the mercy of who God is.
SPEAKER_02: Now, there is a strong belief that.
SPEAKER_02: Is kind of like uh an old wives tale.
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
SPEAKER_02: We can't 100% prove this, even though it's a great thought, right?
SPEAKER_02: So I know the Irish believe that there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
SPEAKER_02: But many historians have this documented, and there is beliefs in Christianity, in Judaism, and um even in some borderline stuff.
SPEAKER_02: When I say borderline, I wouldn't call it Christian or Judaism, but what I'm saying is many people believe that the rainbow that you see in heaven is the exact same rainbow you see on the earth as a full circle.
SPEAKER_02: So when you see a rainbow on the earth, that bow is actually being completed in a full circle.
SPEAKER_02: Now, can we prove that?
SPEAKER_02: No.
SPEAKER_02: But boy, it sure is a great thought, ain't it?
SPEAKER_02: And it does kind of be like, wow, that would be cool if it was, and that would be awesome if it is.
SPEAKER_02: So if it is, great.
SPEAKER_02: And if it's not great, we still got the promise and the covenant and his mercy.
SPEAKER_02: Right?
SPEAKER_02: And the good news is he will not flood the earth again.
SPEAKER_02: That's the good news.
SPEAKER_02: The bad news is he'll burn it.
SPEAKER_02: That's the bad news.
SPEAKER_02: Stay tuned.
SPEAKER_02: Right?
SPEAKER_02: So we see this, we see that he is going to back up his word, but now we get to verse 4, and all around the throne were 24 thrones, and upon the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting clothed in white garments and golden crowns on their heads.
SPEAKER_02: 24 elders clothed in white, wearing gold crowns, seated on thrones.
SPEAKER_02: That's an interesting picture right here around the throne of God.
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting because if you know, at the towards the end of the book, when New Jerusalem comes down, Jesus is going to sit on the throne of David, and those who are in Christ will also be seated in thrones.
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting to note because God often does things like this.
SPEAKER_02: Once he establishes something, that order never goes away.
SPEAKER_02: And so that we see this with the 24 elders.
SPEAKER_02: We see eventually we're going to get to the four living creatures, but let's talk about this image here.
SPEAKER_02: 24 thrones, 24 people.
SPEAKER_02: It gives us a picture possibly of that white garment, that crown, the honor, the authority.
SPEAKER_02: Even shows us how close they were to God, right?
SPEAKER_02: These elders obviously have a relationship with God.
SPEAKER_02: And somehow, some way they're participating.
SPEAKER_02: We're going to see how they participate in worship.
SPEAKER_02: But we get this understanding: if they themselves are also sitting on thrones, then they possibly have some kind of authority.
SPEAKER_02: Now, who are the 24 elders?
SPEAKER_02: Many believers believe that the elders represent redeemed people of God in their completed fullness, and here's what I mean: the number 24, many people will say it represents the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles.
SPEAKER_02: Now, the challenging thing about the 12 apostles is who's number 12?
SPEAKER_02: There's there's you know, because originally Judas is a part of the disciples, right?
SPEAKER_02: But we understand Judas's role.
SPEAKER_02: They cast lots and replaced him with Matthew.
SPEAKER_02: So is it possible it is the 12 apostles?
SPEAKER_02: Sure, it's possible.
SPEAKER_02: It could be the 11 plus Paul.
SPEAKER_02: We don't know.
SPEAKER_02: What I'm just telling you is what people tend to believe.
SPEAKER_02: But here's the thing: all I can tell you is there's 24 elders sitting on 24 thrones, wearing white garments.
SPEAKER_02: I gotta go down.
SPEAKER_02: White garments, a crown, and they're close to God.
SPEAKER_02: That's what I can 100% tell you exactly what it is.
SPEAKER_02: But let's say that it is the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles.
SPEAKER_02: Let's say that would mean there is a type and shadow of the old covenant and the new covenant.
SPEAKER_02: It would actually show how two covenants become one new oh.
SPEAKER_02: But again, here's the question: why elders?
SPEAKER_02: In our day and time, uh, we would probably, as if you look on social media, we would probably want twelve apostles or twelve prophets.
SPEAKER_02: Why elders?
SPEAKER_02: Well, in the Bible, elders represent spiritual maturity.
SPEAKER_02: That eliminates about three-fourths of Facebook apostles.
SPEAKER_02: Elders in scripture also represent leadership.
SPEAKER_02: And they are in scripture a representation of the people.
SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, at this point, hopefully you would know what the white garments could potentially represent: righteousness, purity, uh, redemption, victory.
SPEAKER_02: We've we've touched on this stuff several times on that side of it.
SPEAKER_02: It also reminds us as we go forward there is a pattern as we're cleansed, redeemed, and we're made righteous before God.
SPEAKER_02: The crowns.
SPEAKER_02: The crowns are known as the victor's crowns.
SPEAKER_02: And they're not simply royal crowns.
SPEAKER_02: These victor crowns represent a reward of faithfulness.
SPEAKER_02: Spiritual victory and an endurance through testing.
SPEAKER_02: So the crowns potentially reveal that redemption is not only for salvation from sin, but also the participation in the victory of Christ.
SPEAKER_02: Now, what's interesting about this?
SPEAKER_02: What are these twenty-four elders doing?
SPEAKER_02: What are they doing according to Scripture?
SPEAKER_02: They're sitting down.
SPEAKER_02: That's an odd thing to mention, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02: It's they're not standing up, they're not bowing down, they're not going low.
SPEAKER_02: Why are they seated?
SPEAKER_02: Well, if a king or someone was seated at a throne, it would give us understanding that there was an authority that could not be overthrown.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's just when we look at scripture of the old ways.
SPEAKER_02: It shows a partnership.
SPEAKER_02: It also shows fulfillment of that.
SPEAKER_02: We also would understand even the picture of the train that filled the robe, the robe of the train filled the temple.
SPEAKER_02: When the king sat down, he didn't take the robe off.
SPEAKER_02: Imagine when he sat down, he was seated in that authority of everything that he was victorious of.
SPEAKER_02: But it's potentially showing that at this moment, because of who they are, they also reign with Christ, they share in the kingdom, and they participate in everything that is happening.
SPEAKER_02: It reminds us potentially, because they are seated, that they're not having to fight for a position.
SPEAKER_02: They've already been given a place.
SPEAKER_02: Verse five.
SPEAKER_02: And from the throne proceed flashes of lightning and sounds of peals of thunder, and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits.
SPEAKER_02: And we're here.
SPEAKER_02: We're finally here.
SPEAKER_02: The seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.
SPEAKER_02: If I can go to the seven spirits image, and you have this image, by the way.
SPEAKER_02: We're going to break this down here shortly.
SPEAKER_02: All right.
SPEAKER_02: So we get this picture of what's coming out of the throne.
SPEAKER_02: Lightning, thunder, voices.
SPEAKER_02: Imagine the majesty of that.
SPEAKER_02: Imagine John just sitting there in awe.
SPEAKER_02: Thunder and lightning and all this stuff just going on.
SPEAKER_02: The sphere in Vegas doesn't have nothing on this.
SPEAKER_02: Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.
SPEAKER_02: Now, the seven lamps represent the fullness of the Holy Spirit, the perfection of the Spirit of God, and the activity of what is going on before the throne.
SPEAKER_02: So, what are the seven spirits?
SPEAKER_02: What are the seven lamps?
SPEAKER_02: This is in connection to Isaiah 11 and verse 2.
SPEAKER_02: It's also in connection to Revelation chapter 1 and verse 4, when it is mentioned.
SPEAKER_02: But the reason we are going in detail in this is because this is happening at the throne.
SPEAKER_02: So in this scene, there will be people that will argue that John saw seven lamps and they were on fire.
SPEAKER_02: There will be people that will argue and say they saw seven things.
SPEAKER_02: I, my personal opinion, I cannot prove it 100%, but I genuinely believe he saw seven lamps of fire.
SPEAKER_02: And that's what he saw burning.
SPEAKER_02: That's just my honest opinion.
SPEAKER_02: I think that's what he saw.
SPEAKER_02: I think also this because we understand the parable of the virgins, right?
SPEAKER_02: And their lamps were not filled with oil, right?
SPEAKER_02: Five foolish, uh, five wise virgins, right?
SPEAKER_02: So according to Isaiah 11 and 2, Isaiah describes the Spirit of the Lord, describes wisdom, understanding, counsel, strength, knowledge, and the fear of the Lord.
SPEAKER_02: Here's the most important thing to understand about this passage of scripture in Revelations 4 and 5.
SPEAKER_02: Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.
SPEAKER_02: The seven spirits of God are not seven different spirits.
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean that God divided himself out in seven different ways.
SPEAKER_02: That's not what it means at all.
SPEAKER_02: It means there is fullness, that he's lacking nothing, there is perfection, he operates without limit, and there is presence.
SPEAKER_02: He is continually active before the throne.
SPEAKER_02: Isaiah 11 and 2, when you read it and you just kind of skim over it, it looks like there are only six mentioned.
SPEAKER_02: It's because the seventh is the first one, the spirit of the Lord.
SPEAKER_02: The seven lamps, the seven spirits are number one, the spirit of the Lord.
SPEAKER_02: That's what it is.
SPEAKER_02: He is the spirit who proceeds from God and reveals Christ.
SPEAKER_02: Number two, it's the spirit of wisdom.
SPEAKER_02: He gives divine wisdom and right understanding from God.
SPEAKER_02: Number three, the spirit of understanding.
SPEAKER_02: He illuminates truth and opens spiritual insight.
SPEAKER_02: Number four, the spirit of counsel.
SPEAKER_02: He gives divine guidance and perfect direction.
SPEAKER_02: Number five, the spirit of strength.
SPEAKER_02: He empowers, strengthens, and enables.
SPEAKER_02: Number six, the spirit of knowledge.
SPEAKER_02: He reveals God's truth and the knowledge of his will.
SPEAKER_02: And number seven, the spirit of the fear of the Lord.
SPEAKER_02: He produces reverence, awe, and holy devotion to God.
SPEAKER_02: One Holy Spirit in complete, perfect, and continual operation before the throne of God.
SPEAKER_02: You have this now.
SPEAKER_02: I printed this out for you to make sure you would have this so that you would understand this.
SPEAKER_02: And you would get this identity of knowing what exactly this represents.
SPEAKER_02: One of the things we have to remember also is what the number seven represents and means.
SPEAKER_02: Number seven means perfect, complete, whole.
SPEAKER_02: So when we see this, we're actually seeing the complete, perfect, and whole spirit of God.
SPEAKER_02: Everything that you and I could possibly ever want is right here.
SPEAKER_02: The Spirit Himself, wisdom, understanding, counsel, strength, knowledge, and the fear of the Lord.
SPEAKER_02: Everything is right there also before the throne of God.
SPEAKER_02: So why, though, lamps of fire?
SPEAKER_02: Well, throughout Scripture, Holy Spirit is represented in some different ways.
SPEAKER_02: He was represented as a dove, right?
SPEAKER_02: Represented as a dove.
SPEAKER_02: We see this, especially at Jesus' baptism.
SPEAKER_02: We also see oil.
SPEAKER_02: We see that Holy Spirit is often represented as oil.
SPEAKER_02: Water is another one in Scripture.
SPEAKER_02: Wind is another one.
SPEAKER_02: And fire is another one.
SPEAKER_02: Fire represents holiness, purification, illumination, power, and the active presence of God.
SPEAKER_02: This one image right here, those seven lamps burning, representing the seven spirits, also reveals that nothing is hidden.
SPEAKER_02: Did I put eight?
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02: One, two, three, four, five.
SPEAKER_02: I did put eight.
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02: It is Alabama math.
SPEAKER_02: That's one to grow on.
SPEAKER_02: No, y'all can mark that out.
SPEAKER_02: I didn't realize I miscounted on that.
SPEAKER_02: I apologize.
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for that, though.
SPEAKER_02: I need to fix that.
SPEAKER_02: No, I need to fix that.
SPEAKER_02: Uh so sorry.
SPEAKER_02: All right.
SPEAKER_02: So the lamps burn continually before the throne.
SPEAKER_02: In other words, they're always active.
SPEAKER_02: And they're in perfect unity with God's throne.
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting because throughout scripture, fire often accompanies divine revelation, purification, judgment, manifestation of God's glory.
SPEAKER_02: Think about the burning bush.
SPEAKER_02: Or Mount Sinai.
SPEAKER_02: Or they were led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire at night.
SPEAKER_02: What about tongues setting on top of them?
SPEAKER_02: Fire, cloven tongue.
SPEAKER_02: When the tongue, that fire is on top of them, and nobody said, Man, this looks different.
SPEAKER_02: The same Holy Spirit who comforts and empowers believers is the same Holy Spirit that reveals truth, exposes sin, purifies our hearts, and reflects the holiness of God.
SPEAKER_02: John first saw seven lamps of fire, and then he explains that they are the seven spirits.
SPEAKER_02: Verse six.
SPEAKER_02: And before the throne there was, as it were, a sea of glass, like the crystal, and in the center, and around the throne, four living creatures, full of eyes, in front and behind.
SPEAKER_02: Verse seven, and the first creature was like a lion, the second creature like a calf, the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was that like a flying eagle.
SPEAKER_02: Verse eight, and the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within, and day and night they do not cease to say, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.
SPEAKER_02: Now, can I go back to the four living creatures images?
SPEAKER_02: I do want to point out something here.
SPEAKER_02: All right, so first of all, be able to get as much as I could on the page.
SPEAKER_02: You'll under you'll see in the image in this one, but I did not print this out for y'all, that you see basically two wings, but you gotta understand the scripture said there were six.
SPEAKER_02: And the scripture said there was eyes within and all around.
SPEAKER_02: There is a possibility and a belief that when it's describing the wings, it's not actually describing feathered wings, that it's actually describing eyes that make the um yeah, the appearance of wings.
SPEAKER_02: That it's nothing but eyes that are attached to them.
SPEAKER_02: Part of that belief that some will have is because of what it says in the scripture.
SPEAKER_02: The eyes were within and all around.
SPEAKER_02: There is a belief that instead of like we would think feathers in their wings, that the whole thing is just eyes all the way around.
SPEAKER_02: Can we prove that?
SPEAKER_02: No, we can't prove that.
SPEAKER_02: What we can say is there were six wings, and we can say that eyes were everywhere.
SPEAKER_02: So in this, we see, though, a word that John is going to use, and it does leave it open to some possibilities.
SPEAKER_02: Notice how he did not say there was one who was a lion, one who was an ox, one who was a man, and one who was an eagle.
SPEAKER_02: What does he say?
SPEAKER_02: There was one like.
SPEAKER_02: So it gives us an understanding that John is trying to paint a picture that we would be able to understand, although more than likely it was not actually a lion.
SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't an ox, and it wasn't a man, and it wasn't an eagle.
SPEAKER_02: These are creatures.
SPEAKER_02: Now, four living creatures, what type of creatures?
SPEAKER_02: We'll eventually get into that one day, because there's cherubims, there's seraphims, there's angels, there's all this different type of stuff that we have to dive deep in.
SPEAKER_02: But we do know they are, even though they fit a category, they're known as the four living creatures.
SPEAKER_02: So John is giving us some kind of concept of potentially what they look like.
SPEAKER_02: But I can, I would feel confident in saying when you are before the throne room of God and you see these four living creatures, and you can remember this moment in time, you're gonna say, boy, Ryan was right.
SPEAKER_02: That's not a lion.
SPEAKER_02: It looks more like a, you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: But John is giving us something that we can kind of go off.
SPEAKER_02: But what I really want us to look at here is of course, we're gonna look at why he calls every one of them the lion, the ox, the man, and The eagle.
SPEAKER_02: We're going to look at those four representations, but I don't want us to lose sight of the eyes.
SPEAKER_02: The eyes are so important.
SPEAKER_02: It is known in most seminaries and theological studies that there's a universal word that can be said in a way that it will translate in every single language on the face of the earth.
SPEAKER_02: Anybody know what that word is?
SPEAKER_02: Hallelujah.
SPEAKER_02: Hallelujah is the same, in any language, it can be translated the exact same way.
SPEAKER_02: It is hallelujah.
SPEAKER_02: It is spoken, you say hallelujah, every language will know.
SPEAKER_02: You might hear someone say hallelujah according to their culture and stuff, but hallelujah is that word.
SPEAKER_02: Wait.
SPEAKER_02: But it's also taught in theologians and history and seminary and all this that holy is a word that is used, but it has no actual definition.
SPEAKER_02: And what I mean by that is it is a word used to describe God, yet you cannot describe God in that word.
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't make sense if you just hear it, but it makes sense when you think about it.
SPEAKER_02: So the fact is that these four living creatures, every time their eyes get a glimpse of God, they get another revelation of who He is, and one of the best things that they can come up with is holy.
SPEAKER_02: Holy.
SPEAKER_02: And that word, we know it's holy, we know holiness.
SPEAKER_02: But what I'm trying to get across is that we understand they're actually describing God and yet they can't describe him.
SPEAKER_02: That's wild.
SPEAKER_02: That's a uh in in theological terms, that's a dichotomy.
SPEAKER_02: You know, it doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like we would say, God is here, right?
SPEAKER_02: God is here, but he's there.
SPEAKER_02: He's there, but he's here.
SPEAKER_02: Jesus came as a man.
SPEAKER_02: He died, he ascended, right?
SPEAKER_02: Even though he sat at the right hand of the throne, he's within us, right?
SPEAKER_02: So he's there, but he's here, and he's also a soon-coming king.
SPEAKER_02: Gosh, how does all that weigh out?
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the frustrations of certain things.
SPEAKER_02: So, these four living creatures.
SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about these four faces.
SPEAKER_02: The lion.
SPEAKER_02: It's possible that John uses the lion because he would have known that the lion represents royal authority.
SPEAKER_02: Historically, it represents courage, power, and dominion.
SPEAKER_02: There's also the plain and simple thought that he is known as the lion of the tribe of Judah, right?
SPEAKER_02: It's also the plain and simple thought as we get the type and shadow of Satan himself.
SPEAKER_02: Satan is likened unto a roaring lion.
SPEAKER_02: So John is possibly showing that the authority over the enemy by the use of the lion.
SPEAKER_02: Then we get to the ox.
SPEAKER_02: The ox could potentially represent service and endurance.
SPEAKER_02: An ox was strong even when it was burdened.
SPEAKER_02: The ox was known to be a faithful laborer.
SPEAKER_02: The ox was known historically for their endurance and honestly their servanthood.
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, you'd have to do a quick dive on this, and I don't have time to go in it, but if you go back to when Elisha, when Elijah comes by and throws his, you know, throws his robe over to, you know, his mantle over and Elisha, what does Elisha do?
SPEAKER_02: Kills the ox, burns the plow.
SPEAKER_02: That is a major, major deal.
SPEAKER_02: If you look what they thought of the ox.
SPEAKER_02: The ox was not just simply a beast of burden.
SPEAKER_02: It was very, very high on the on the chart of what Jews valued them as.
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: But you know, the question, by the way, when I was in Israel, one of the questions I had was, are there eagles here?
SPEAKER_02: And yes, they are.
SPEAKER_02: There are eagles in Israel, but not the bald eagle, what we think of every time when we see an eagle.
SPEAKER_02: But there is a different type of eagle known in that region, and he would have known that.
SPEAKER_02: Now, what is the one thing about all eagles, no matter what type of eagle you look at, what is the one thing?
SPEAKER_02: I hope you know this, that eagles are known to do when a storm comes.
SPEAKER_02: Do what?
SPEAKER_02: They rise above it, but they do something right before they rise above.
SPEAKER_02: They fly directly into the storm.
SPEAKER_02: They don't wait for the storm to hit them.
SPEAKER_02: They go to the storm to get above it.
SPEAKER_02: Ooh.
SPEAKER_02: Just saying.
SPEAKER_02: So possibly these four living creatures could represent strength, service, wisdom, and vision.
SPEAKER_02: Could.
SPEAKER_02: That's a big word.
SPEAKER_02: Could.
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
SPEAKER_02: Now, there's another aspect of this.
SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of theologians that believe that the reason John also uses these four types is because John wrote one of the four Gospels.
SPEAKER_02: John was familiar with the letters, the Gospel, right?
SPEAKER_02: He was familiar with Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.
SPEAKER_02: When you study the four Gospels, in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is portrayed as a lion.
SPEAKER_02: In the Gospel of Mark, he's portrayed as an ox.
SPEAKER_02: One who came to minister.
SPEAKER_02: A worker, a servant.
SPEAKER_02: I didn't come to this world to be served, but I came to the world to serve.
SPEAKER_02: In Luke, Luke emphasizes the humanity of Christ, Jesus as man.
SPEAKER_02: And John, the beloved, the one whom he loved.
SPEAKER_02: John, the revelator.
SPEAKER_02: John emphasizes the deity of Christ.
SPEAKER_02: The divine revelation.
SPEAKER_02: That eagle.
SPEAKER_02: The vision.
SPEAKER_02: To see the vision fulfilled.
SPEAKER_02: I must go into Jerusalem, and there I will be arrested.
SPEAKER_02: And there I will be betrayed.
SPEAKER_02: He had carried out those.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 9.
SPEAKER_02: And when the living creatures gave glory and honor and thanks to him who sat on the throne, to him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before him who sits on the throne and will worship him who lives forever and ever, and will cast the crowns before the throne, saying, Worthy art thou, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they existed and were created.
SPEAKER_02: You are worthy.
SPEAKER_02: And the very things that the elders had given to them the victor's crown, they lay it down at his feet as an offering unto God, casting their crown, saying that you are the worthy one.
SPEAKER_02: Now we see those twenty-four elders no longer seated, but they're bowed down.
SPEAKER_02: Now what's interesting about this is John sees this happen after the four living creatures do their part.
SPEAKER_02: Now, there are historians, theologians, there are universities that even teach courses on revelation, and they'll teach that this is a never-ending cycle.
SPEAKER_02: And it is my opinion, you don't have to agree with me or not to agree with me, that I personally believe this is also a never-ending cycle.
SPEAKER_02: I believe this is something that the four living creatures are constantly doing.
SPEAKER_02: And I also believe it is something, even though it sounds redundant, that the 24 elders are seated, but then they get up and leave, and it's just over and over.
SPEAKER_02: And the best way I can portray this is it is it is like if you ever had somebody try to give you money and you went, no, no, no, no, not.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want that money.
SPEAKER_02: I don't don't don't give it to me.
SPEAKER_02: But then you you pull the old Christian knees.
SPEAKER_02: Don't you rob me of my blessing?
SPEAKER_02: Right?
SPEAKER_02: You pull that, and then you take the money, and then what do they what do you typically do?
SPEAKER_02: You try to repay it in some kind of favor.
SPEAKER_02: That's typically how it goes.
SPEAKER_02: This scene possibly predicts gives us an understanding that when the 24 elders lay the crown down, God then places it back upon them because it was earned for them through Christ.
SPEAKER_02: And so even though they lay it at his feet, it comes back into their possession and they lay it all over again.
SPEAKER_02: It kind of gives that image of what that is.
SPEAKER_02: So now we kind of see what this is.
SPEAKER_02: Let's go back to Revelation chapter 4, verse 1, because this is the verse that everybody loves to count at.
SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna count at it.
SPEAKER_02: Can I get the first image of Revelation 4, 1?
SPEAKER_02: And you will have this.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, next one, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02: Pinko.
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
SPEAKER_02: Now, you have this as well.
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna have these next ones because it's important for you to have them.
SPEAKER_02: And again, tonight I'm not trying to prove anything.
SPEAKER_02: I'm giving you the tools, and then you seek it out however you want to seek it out.
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
SPEAKER_02: Revelation 4.1.
SPEAKER_02: Remember last week we talked about the verse in Revelation chapter 3 and why people believe it talks about the rapture.
SPEAKER_02: Now we look at, we shift to Revelation 4.1.
SPEAKER_02: Again, come up here and I will show you what must take place after this.
SPEAKER_02: After this is a big, big thing.
SPEAKER_02: So there is a heavenly call.
SPEAKER_02: John hears the voice like a trumpet, and he's called up into heaven to receive the voice.
SPEAKER_02: What is there a parallel?
SPEAKER_02: Again, we remember 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, 16 and 17.
SPEAKER_02: The parallel?
SPEAKER_02: The catching up of the church in the rapture.
SPEAKER_02: That's what the parallel begins to connect here.
SPEAKER_02: Why do they begin connecting it here?
SPEAKER_02: Again, because it marks the transition from the church age on earth to heavenly perspective before God's judgment begins.
SPEAKER_02: What is going to be missing on earth from Revelation 4 to 19?
SPEAKER_02: The church.
SPEAKER_02: This is why a lot of people will hinge this on here.
SPEAKER_02: So this is where, if you were to ask the majority of people, do you believe in the rapture?
SPEAKER_02: The majority of people that believe in the rapture is going to say yes.
SPEAKER_02: And if you say, where's the rapture at in the Bible?
SPEAKER_02: They'll quote 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, verse 16 and 17.
SPEAKER_02: And then they'll quote Revelation chapter 4, verse 1.
SPEAKER_02: And because this is where it's going to be hinged on this, we see a very important chronological shift.
SPEAKER_02: Chapters 2 and 3 were the letters to the seven churches, right?
SPEAKER_02: Where were those seven churches?
SPEAKER_02: On the earth.
SPEAKER_02: Then chapters 4 and 5, we get the church in heaven.
SPEAKER_02: In chapter 6, we're going to see the tribulation period begin in that.
SPEAKER_02: So, the absence of the church, and the word church here is ecclesia.
SPEAKER_02: It appears 19 times in chapters 2 through 3, but is also absent from chapters 4 through 18, which describe earthly judgments.
SPEAKER_02: The typical representation is John's rapture into heaven is seeing a topological picture of the rapture.
SPEAKER_02: So when John writes, and I was called up into heaven, that's exactly where individuals say this is John using a language in code saying this is when the church is going to be called up into heaven.
SPEAKER_02: The ecclesia is very important here because this is the word that God, I mean, Jesus used when he was talking to Simon Peter, who at that time was not Simon Peter, he was Simon Barjona.
SPEAKER_02: But Simon Barjona got the revelation that Jesus was the Messiah.
SPEAKER_02: What did Jesus say unto Simon Barjona?
SPEAKER_02: Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but only my Father in heaven.
SPEAKER_02: And I say unto you this day, you will be Petra, rock.
SPEAKER_02: And upon this rock I'll build my church, Ecclesia.
SPEAKER_02: For many generations, people thought Ecclesia simply meant the gathering together of an assembly.
SPEAKER_02: It does have that definition, but a bigger definition is legislative governing authority.
SPEAKER_02: The ecclesia represents legislative governing authority.
SPEAKER_02: So when we see church, there it is that same word.
SPEAKER_02: Can I go to the next screen?
SPEAKER_02: Alright.
SPEAKER_02: So let's look at it from this perspective.
SPEAKER_02: Revelation chapter 4, verse 1, not the rapture.
SPEAKER_02: But it's just a prophetic vision.
SPEAKER_02: So we're going to look at a different interpretation, understanding the context.
SPEAKER_02: Again, Revelation 4, 1.
SPEAKER_02: Come up here and I'll show you what must take place after this.
SPEAKER_02: Historical and literary context, the verse describes a personal prophetic experience for John, allowing him to witness what must take place after this, the divine perspective.
SPEAKER_02: Those that would say this is not the rapture, they hang it on this.
SPEAKER_02: There is no explicit detail.
SPEAKER_02: The text does not mention the resurrection of the dead or the collective removal of all believers, which are the central components of the rapture doctrine.
SPEAKER_02: So if they don't believe in the rapture, the reason they say it's not is because it doesn't say anything about it.
SPEAKER_02: Which, if you're going to make an argument, that's a pretty good thing to hang your hat on, right?
SPEAKER_02: Believers on earth, saints, are still mentioned on the earth during the tribulation period in later chapters, suggesting that the church or at least faithful believers are still present.
SPEAKER_02: Will there be people who are believers present during the tribulation?
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
SPEAKER_02: And we'll get into all that, but you kind of understand the where the non-rapture people go from here.
SPEAKER_02: Can I go to the last picture?
SPEAKER_02: I gave you this as well.
SPEAKER_02: This is so you can look at both sides of this at the same time and understand.
SPEAKER_02: This shows you when it says come up here, the catching up, but it here those that see it strictly as John's vision.
SPEAKER_02: So it shows you what it could be, and others say what it also could be.
SPEAKER_02: This is just showing you one verse, two views, but I don't want you to lose fact that it's the same God.
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
SPEAKER_02: Here's the thing.
SPEAKER_02: You can have an opinion of this or a belief of this, and you can have a belief of this right here.
SPEAKER_02: And we can we can both be on the opposite end of the page.
SPEAKER_02: The problem is if you got a God that isn't Yahweh, isn't the Almighty, isn't El Shaddai, that's our problem.
SPEAKER_02: Not this interpretation of the scripture, it's God right there.
SPEAKER_02: And so this is why it's so important that we proceed to always keep in mind this is about Jesus and God's restoration and redemption.
SPEAKER_02: There is a redemptive quality of this.
SPEAKER_02: Now, again, if you're in this camp of the rapture, there will be people that will say you are believing in escapism.
SPEAKER_02: And I know what that's been used, I know how that's been abused, and people uh have there been people treat it like escapism?
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
SPEAKER_02: Are there people that believe in the preacher of rapture that do not treat it like escapism?
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: Are there people that believe it's just an interpretation of that?
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, these things are going to happen.
SPEAKER_02: But I want to tell you this.
SPEAKER_02: When you begin, don't base a theological idea on one verse and take it completely away from the entire book.
SPEAKER_02: Because this is what I'm gonna tell you.
SPEAKER_02: There's gonna be other things that will line you up this way, and other things that'll line you up this way.
SPEAKER_02: But if we only look at one verse and make our theology out of the entire thing out of one verse, we're gonna get out of alignment really, really quickly.
SPEAKER_02: Because there's gonna be a lot of other things happen.
SPEAKER_02: And at times you're gonna go, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And then other times you may go, well, maybe that.
SPEAKER_02: And what you're gonna have to do is once we get through this whole thing, you're gonna look at it and you're gonna be able to know where you really stand because you did you went through it all and got a complete view and picture.
SPEAKER_02: Any questions for each other?
SPEAKER_02: Yes, ma'am.
SPEAKER_07: I'm I'm gonna have to disagree with the picture.
SPEAKER_07: Can't we have both of these and have different views, but have both of the first two?
SPEAKER_07: The come up here, can't we have both of those perspectives and still believe in the opposite uh perspective?
SPEAKER_07: And I'll tell you why.
SPEAKER_07: See, when I read come up here on this side of heaven, for me, that means I have to come up here to get God's perspective, to get heaven's perspective, for my eyes to be open to see what he's getting ready to show me.
SPEAKER_07: Right.
SPEAKER_07: Okay, I can't do it.
SPEAKER_07: Reading Revelation with a mind of man is impossible.
SPEAKER_07: So I have to have the mind of Christ.
SPEAKER_07: I he says, come up here, for I have things to show you, okay?
SPEAKER_07: Uh can we not say that one can be either or?
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
SPEAKER_02: So let me let me let me say this in a different way.
SPEAKER_02: This picture is is trying to show you two different views of rapture anti-rapture.
SPEAKER_02: But I want you to understand something.
SPEAKER_02: Can it mean that John literally was caught up into heaven and it also mean that it's a rapture?
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: It can mean the same thing.
SPEAKER_02: Now, here's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02: There will be people that will argue, well, John never left Patmos, that he he stayed there and all this was an open vision.
SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around that.
SPEAKER_02: I think John was literally caught up.
SPEAKER_02: And the reason I think he was literally caught up is that's happened in the Bible.
SPEAKER_02: That's nothing that is far fetched to believe.
SPEAKER_02: So I genuinely believe that when John is saying, and I was caught up, and I saw, I don't think he was laying on Patmas and all of a sudden just had this open vision of something.
SPEAKER_02: I believe that he was standing before the door that was open.
SPEAKER_02: It can be an actual thing and also represent something else, one way or the other.
SPEAKER_02: So it's a great question because it does need to be said, but I do want to reiterate this is just showing you the two different views.
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting, though, because if you are anti-rapture, you will not even say that they can be both things.
SPEAKER_02: You'll get people to become combatative against you.
SPEAKER_02: And you'll get people that'll be combative on the other side, but it's just because they think everything is um uh an allegory of some way.
SPEAKER_02: And listen, some of these things are not that yes, he uses something to define something, but some of these things are actually tangible.
SPEAKER_02: Yes, ma'am.
SPEAKER_06: So in Revelations um, what was it, 4 2, it says, At once I was caught up in the spirit, could it just mean that spiritually he was caught up, like maybe like an outer body experience type thing?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so there is again, this is where um the the argument comes up that he this was just an open vision that he had on Patmos because it says he was caught up in the spirit.
SPEAKER_02: Now, there is a belief, though, that theologians will teach that the reason John says this is because John is using a language that individuals, that Gentiles, that those in Christ would understand in the language of being in the spirit.
SPEAKER_02: There's also even in Judaism that John is potentially using this language because it was taught that no man has seen the face of God and lived.
SPEAKER_02: So if John would have used the language and said, I was there physically, they would have written him off because they would have said no man can see the face of God and live.
SPEAKER_02: So there's two, there's some arguments on that as far as religions, believing, and so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_02: Now, the other side of that is um, you know, when we die, we understand that our body goes to the ground, and what goes to heaven if it goes to heaven?
SPEAKER_02: The spirit, okay.
SPEAKER_02: So there's this understanding that even in that case, there could have been a separation.
SPEAKER_02: What that looks like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: Um I I still think in this moment that there's something supernaturally taking place here.
SPEAKER_02: And I can't, and there's just not enough things to articulate it.
SPEAKER_02: Now, and here's where some people would be combatitive towards me on this.
SPEAKER_02: Because again, people say, well, they can't see God face to face.
SPEAKER_02: Moses had dinner with him.
SPEAKER_02: Explain that one.
SPEAKER_02: Moses had dinner with him and saw him face to face.
SPEAKER_02: Scripture says that.
SPEAKER_02: He sat with him and had dinner.
SPEAKER_02: Dinner, I mean, had a meal.
SPEAKER_02: You understand what I'm saying when I say that?
SPEAKER_02: And then explain Enoch.
SPEAKER_02: Is he just in a holding compartment in the second heaven?
SPEAKER_02: Waiting to die?
SPEAKER_02: I mean, now when we get the two witnesses, that's all that's gonna be a whole other thing.
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, this is where when we get into Revelation, we start going this point forward, it's gonna be hard to give definitive answers.
SPEAKER_02: And it's why I'm gonna say, yes, possibly, and I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: Because we can't be 100% accurate.
SPEAKER_02: But if we remember, we can all ask him when we get there.
SPEAKER_02: But I doubt we remember.
SPEAKER_02: We all got that one question that we want to ask when we get there, right?
SPEAKER_02: No.
SPEAKER_02: Any other questions?
SPEAKER_02: Hang on one second, we gotta get the microphone.
SPEAKER_01: Paul wasn't sure whether he was in the flesh or in the spirit, right?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: But explain in verse two, it says, at once I was in the spirit.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we gotta get there.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he said in verse two, at once I was in the spirit.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_02: So what happened in verse one?
SPEAKER_02: Look at verse one again.
SPEAKER_02: What happened?
SPEAKER_02: There's an open door.
SPEAKER_02: He looked up, behold, there was an open door standing in heaven, and the first voice he heard like the sound of the trumpet, and the trumpet said, Come up here, and I'll show you what must take place.
SPEAKER_02: So, verse one, he looks up and he sees that open door.
SPEAKER_02: Where is he seeing it from?
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, where he's at in the earth, right?
SPEAKER_02: But all of a sudden now he's in his spirit and he's there.
SPEAKER_02: So again, the question remains: is this a moment in which John is saying that he remained on the earth physically and he had an open vision, and this is how it articulates from that?
SPEAKER_02: Possibly.
SPEAKER_02: Or it could also mean that John used the language, I was in the spirit, because he knew he had to get certain people to read this word.
SPEAKER_02: That's there too.
SPEAKER_02: So it is one of these things that yes, no, impossibly.
SPEAKER_02: Does that sort of answer it?
unknown: Yeah, it's sort of answering it.
SPEAKER_02: Sort answers it?
SPEAKER_02: Okay, because here's what I want to show you.
SPEAKER_02: Here's what I want to show you something.
SPEAKER_02: And it's gonna sound strange when I say this.
SPEAKER_02: The word spirit right there is pneuma.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, it means breath.
SPEAKER_02: Right?
SPEAKER_02: It means air.
SPEAKER_02: It means a disposition, it means the rational soul.
SPEAKER_02: So even though he uses the word spirit, it could also mean physically he's there.
SPEAKER_02: Why?
SPEAKER_02: Because his soul, right?
SPEAKER_02: But that doesn't make sense to us.
SPEAKER_02: I know, but here's also another word that absolutely blows my mind.
SPEAKER_02: It also means superhuman.
SPEAKER_02: In the sense of angel or spiritually.
SPEAKER_02: So again, this is one of those things that he could have been only their spirit, or he could have been there in whole body.
SPEAKER_02: And he uses this word because this word can have more than one meaning.
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02: Everybody?
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, just a simple question of logistics.
SPEAKER_05: I'm just curious about.
SPEAKER_05: Um, we know that John was here on the island of Patmos.
SPEAKER_05: He was abandoned there.
SPEAKER_05: Uh, I think you mentioned his eyes were gouged out, which I did not know that.
SPEAKER_05: Um, so anyway, he's writing writing the letters and he's seeing all this.
SPEAKER_05: Do we know, or historians have they documented how John got off of Patmos or how the letters got off of Patmos and into the uh the seven churches' hands for them to read?
SPEAKER_05: Do we know that at all?
SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to remember and offhand, I don't remember.
SPEAKER_02: Pastor, do you remember?
SPEAKER_02: I can't.
SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to think back, Daryl, if you remember as well.
SPEAKER_02: The book of martyrs is where we find out that John was burnt boiled alive and is out, Israel gals out.
SPEAKER_02: Even though John is listed in the book of martyrs, uh, John was the only one that actually wasn't martyred.
SPEAKER_02: But it it gives us the understanding of his life because he was an original disciple and apostle, and so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_02: But it's the book of martyrs that lets us know that he was sent there.
SPEAKER_02: Matter of fact, John actually wrote in the letter he was in Patmos.
SPEAKER_02: How he gets off, I cannot recall off the top of my head.
SPEAKER_02: I don't know that answer, and I can't even think of it right now.
SPEAKER_02: Um, because it's not long after I do know, I want to say the time frame of this, it was like maybe within a two-year window, John dies.
SPEAKER_02: And of course, when John dies, that's where sensationists hang their hat on everything ends because he was the last living quote-unquote apostle.
SPEAKER_02: They also hang it on that because Jesus told the disciples that you would not die until you see all these things come to pass, which ironically is what John saw in Revelation.
SPEAKER_02: But there is this idea that, you know, healing, miracles, the fruits of the gifts of the Spirit, all that ended when John took his last breath.
SPEAKER_02: That'd be a pretty sad day, right?
SPEAKER_02: You're waiting on this last apostle, and then you turn around and look and go, Well, that's it.
SPEAKER_02: Let's hope this thing wraps up soon.
SPEAKER_02: And here we are all these years later.
SPEAKER_02: But do you remember?
SPEAKER_07: You got I kept thinking, I know that John preached in Ephesus after he was released, and it says that uh political change happened, and after Domitian in 96 A.D.
SPEAKER_07: died, that he was released, and then he went to Ephesus and preached and helped the church.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I could not remember that.
SPEAKER_02: I don't even remember reading that.
SPEAKER_07: I have another question.
SPEAKER_02: He he died, so I'm trying to.
SPEAKER_07: Can I ask another you know what I love about this class?
SPEAKER_07: Everything.
SPEAKER_07: Come on, and I'll tell you why.
SPEAKER_07: I know that everybody in here is getting things from the Lord that you didn't get before, okay?
SPEAKER_07: And so you uh just humor me here.
SPEAKER_07: Yes, ma'am.
SPEAKER_02: Oh great sage teacher Daryl, Daryl has my name.
SPEAKER_07: In in rebel, okay, in Revelation 4 and verse 8, it talks about the the four living creatures that were covered, their wings were covered in eyes, outside and inside, they were covered with eyes.
SPEAKER_07: When we read that tonight, I thought of the scripture in 2 Chronicles 16, 9 that says, the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, looking for those who are faithful to him.
SPEAKER_07: And then I got to thinking, as you're mentioning, the lion authority, the ox, strength, and servanthood, the man is our identity as sons and daughters of the covenant, and eagle has spiritual vision, and I'm thinking of that, and I'm thinking of the eyes of the Lord are so faithful.
SPEAKER_07: This is a picture of those who have been given by God to watch throughout the whole earth and looking for people who are faithful to the Lord, who are faithful to his covenant, who are faithful to do his will.
SPEAKER_07: I mean, that to me is so exciting.
SPEAKER_07: What do you say?
SPEAKER_02: I love this.
SPEAKER_02: Um, I absolutely love this because I had to go back.
SPEAKER_02: For the eyes of the Lord move to and fro throughout the earth that he may strongly support those whose heart is completely his.
SPEAKER_02: Again, when we see this picture, if if if Zach, could you bring the um four chapter four, verse one through five back up?
SPEAKER_02: Just for that picture, if I could.
SPEAKER_02: So that I give this image here.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, chapter four, verse one through five.
SPEAKER_02: See that image?
SPEAKER_02: All right.
SPEAKER_02: You have, did I get that right too?
SPEAKER_02: One, two, three, four, five, six.
SPEAKER_02: I got that one right.
SPEAKER_02: Jeez.
SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know how I messed that other one up.
SPEAKER_02: Man, it's tough counting when you're missing some of your digits, but anyway, no, I'm not.
SPEAKER_02: So in this throne right here, we get that image again.
SPEAKER_02: And and but when we get this picture, one of the things that we're getting is this is the whole, complete, and fullness of who God is.
SPEAKER_02: 2 Chronicles 16 and 9 also gives us the understanding in a different language that says God is looking throughout all the earth who He can reveal Himself to.
SPEAKER_02: Now that's important because the throne, the rainbow, the seven spirits, the elders, and the four living creatures that are all around this, their purpose is part of the completion and the revelation of who God is.
SPEAKER_02: That's interesting because I'm saying this, I love that you brought this verse out.
SPEAKER_02: There's people that are convinced that God in the Old Testament is different than God in the New Testament.
SPEAKER_02: And I know that there's some functioning that is different in some ways, but I promise you, God of the old, God of the new is the same God.
SPEAKER_02: Because what is happening here in the revelation of who he is is God saying, I'm looking to man on the earth to reveal who I am in the earth.
SPEAKER_02: That's what I love about that verse.
SPEAKER_02: His eyes, their eyes, all revealing the completeness of who he is.
SPEAKER_02: Such a great way, Belinda.
SPEAKER_02: I love the way you're thinking on that.
SPEAKER_02: And this is the thing.
SPEAKER_02: When we keep going forward, there's gonna be stuff jump out, and you're gonna have to just jump with it.
SPEAKER_02: That's about the best way and say it.
SPEAKER_08: Um, I was just getting um the revelation of John.
SPEAKER_08: And John was the disciple that Jesus loved.
SPEAKER_08: Yes, John was the one that was there with him, John had his heart, yes, and for the church to have that heart, and he was called up to show him all of this because he knew his heart, and he had a love for him.
SPEAKER_08: Come on, and he represents the church, right?
SPEAKER_08: Come on, that love is pulling up.
SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Come on, I love that.
SPEAKER_02: One other thing here.
SPEAKER_02: Which disciple was at the crucifixion?
SPEAKER_02: It was only John.
SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't it make sense for the one who saw the lamb on the cross would see the one sitting on the throne?
SPEAKER_02: Man, that made my hair stand up.
SPEAKER_02: God, look at that.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, anyone else?
SPEAKER_02: This is where it just keeps getting funner and funner.
SPEAKER_01: I love being taught the word of God.
SPEAKER_01: Come on.
SPEAKER_01: And for my own uh theology, going back to verse 2.
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
SPEAKER_01: We're talking about the 24 elders, correct?
SPEAKER_01: Talking about what?
SPEAKER_01: The 24 elders around the 24 elders, yes.
SPEAKER_01: And some say twelve were the apostles.
SPEAKER_01: So if John was caught up in his body, was he seeing himself there when he was there?
SPEAKER_01: And he's seeing himself as one of the elders, or was that a spiritual vision?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it really raises a very good question.
SPEAKER_02: And again, if you believe that the 24 elders are 12 from the tribe of Israel and the 12 apostles, you would have to think that he would saw himself, or it simply is one and the same, or whatever.
SPEAKER_02: And here's the thing: because we don't know who the 24 elders are, we can't say one way or the other.
SPEAKER_02: I've I've tried to study this out before, and all I can ever get to where let me say it this way.
SPEAKER_02: I personally believe that at least 12 are representing the 12 tribes of Israel.
SPEAKER_02: That's my personal opinion.
SPEAKER_02: But I'm not a hundred percent convinced that the other 12 are the apostles, and and here's why I mean this.
SPEAKER_02: I believe when we look at that, it would also add, again, is it Matthew's?
SPEAKER_02: Is it Paul?
SPEAKER_02: Because Paul identifies himself as the chief apostle, or is it a different application of an elder?
SPEAKER_02: And the only reason I'm saying that is because of what the word elder means in the Bible.
SPEAKER_02: Now, this is not what I'm I'm just I'm throwing something out there when I say this.
SPEAKER_02: But Jesus only gave one standing ovation to one person one time, right?
SPEAKER_02: He gave it to Stephen.
SPEAKER_02: Why would he stand at Stephen's death?
SPEAKER_02: Stephen wasn't an elder in the natural, but he was a deacon according to the Bible.
SPEAKER_02: But if we look at elder and we look at deacons, there can be a common thing.
SPEAKER_02: The only thing that's different is the deacons wasn't over-authoritatively people in that.
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: Could it be Stephen?
SPEAKER_02: Could it be um, could it be a different representation of something else that we just don't know?
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: If it is the 12 apostles, then my thinking would be it would be the 11 plus Matthew.
SPEAKER_02: And it wouldn't be the 11 plus Paul, because Matthew is replaces, and Paul is in a different category in and of itself.
SPEAKER_02: But again, I can't prove that.
SPEAKER_02: And the reason I can't prove it is I've not been caught up there yet.
unknown: Deuteronomy 29 and 29.
SPEAKER_02: Hang on, repeat that in the microphone.
SPEAKER_03: Deuteronomy 29, 29.
SPEAKER_03: The things that God reveals to us belong to us, the secret things belong to the Lord.
SPEAKER_03: Amen.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
SPEAKER_02: There are some things that we won't know until we're there.
SPEAKER_02: And so I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: Yes, ma'am.
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
SPEAKER_04: John is taken up and he's trying to describe this in writing.
SPEAKER_04: And he had to figure out how to describe those creatures because it was something he'd never seen before, and he had to come up with words that we knew.
SPEAKER_04: He knew the disciples.
SPEAKER_04: Don't you think that that would have been something that he would have known and he would have said, and then there were the you know, my buddies up there.
SPEAKER_04: But he said there were 24 elders.
SPEAKER_02: Well, you bring out an interesting point because at this point in time, those 11 are dead.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, those 10 are dead.
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, 10 of them are dead at this time.
SPEAKER_02: It does bring out an interesting point.
SPEAKER_02: Now, again, we don't know.
SPEAKER_02: We can form an idea, an opinion, a thought, just like we can whether or not this is just a vision or this is also a type and shadow of a pre-trib uh rapture.
SPEAKER_02: Here's what I want us to understand about this chapter.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want us to get caught up only looking at John.
SPEAKER_02: And I don't want us to get caught up only looking at the 24 elders or the four living creatures.
SPEAKER_02: I got to remind us all that that's the purpose.
SPEAKER_02: The throne of God is the center of this chapter.
SPEAKER_02: We can sit and try to understand the seven spirits, the elders, John, all that.
SPEAKER_02: We can.
SPEAKER_02: But what I want to tell us in that is if we try to study it out to give us a definitive reason, we're gonna miss this.
SPEAKER_02: Because we're trying to give it a definitive reason in our own understanding.
SPEAKER_02: And our own understanding is going to, is going to take us down roads that we were never intended to go, because even though there are things that we know and things that we don't know, just like who was, who is, and who is to come, there's different aspects of that.
SPEAKER_02: One of the things about this is you cannot lose sight of hope, redemption, righteousness, and your faith in who he says he is.
SPEAKER_02: If we replace our faith with head knowledge, all we're going to be is just minions running upon the earth thinking we know everything when we know nothing.
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02: So if I can say anything, that right.
SPEAKER_02: There.
SPEAKER_02: That's what matters the most.
SPEAKER_02: Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_02: One last question or statement, whichever one.
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no.
unknown: I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about it.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
SPEAKER_02: So uh we go to Revelation chapter five, and we're beginning this process.
SPEAKER_02: And I'll keep trying to put stuff in your hands.
SPEAKER_02: I know we shared some images and stuff that you don't have.
SPEAKER_02: I didn't feel like they were they were important for you to have this week.
SPEAKER_02: These other things are important to have.
SPEAKER_02: And again, we're gonna hit all these different topics when we get into pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, when you can even put in um kingdom dominionism, all that other stuff.
SPEAKER_02: We'll have bits and pieces of that, but I also want to encourage you.
SPEAKER_02: We're studying the book for what it is.
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get to eschatology come late September, October, November.
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get into that.
SPEAKER_02: So that's why it's important for me to show you what is believed and what is not believed, both sides of it, okay?
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm just trying to show you what the scripture actually says.
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?