SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Summit Church Podcast.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us as we share weekly sermons and teachings from Summit Church in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee.
SPEAKER_00: Our prayer is that today's message encourages your faith and helps you grow in your relationship with Jesus.
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SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, and we pray this message encourages you today.
SPEAKER_01: We are diving deep into Revelation chapter 14.
SPEAKER_01: Now, Revelation 14 is the Lamb's victory and their certainty of judgment.
SPEAKER_01: And the overall purpose and theme of this chapter is that it seems like Eve was winning, but this chapter provides God's answer.
SPEAKER_01: It is going to serve as a dramatic contrast to Revelation 13.
SPEAKER_01: Instead of focusing on the power of the beasts, Revelation 14 is going to reveal the triumph of the lamb, the victory of the 144,000, the proclamation of the everlasting gospel, the fall of Babylon, the certainty of divine judgment, and the final harvest of the earth.
SPEAKER_01: This chapter reminds believers that regardless of how powerful evil appears, God remains in control and Christ will ultimately prevail.
SPEAKER_01: An overall key theme of this chapter is though the beast appears powerful for a season, the lamb stands victorious.
SPEAKER_01: God's judgment is certain, and the final harvest of humanity is approaching.
SPEAKER_01: So let's dive into this in Revelation chapter 14, verses 1 through 3.
SPEAKER_01: Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 having his name and the name of his father written on their foreheads.
SPEAKER_01: And I heard a voice from heaven, of the sound of many waters, and like the sound of loud thunder.
SPEAKER_01: And the voice which I had heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
SPEAKER_01: They sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders.
SPEAKER_01: No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth.
SPEAKER_01: Now, very interesting right off the bat because after the dark events of Revelation 13, John immediately sees a scene that is nothing short of victory.
SPEAKER_01: The lamb is standing.
SPEAKER_01: The beast may have risen in chapter 13, but the lamb remains standing in chapter 14.
SPEAKER_01: This is not a picture of defeat.
SPEAKER_01: Standing with the lamb are the 144,000 servants of God.
SPEAKER_01: These are the same 144,000 that are mentioned in Revelation chapter 7.
SPEAKER_01: We remember who are the 144,000 in Revelation 7.
SPEAKER_01: It identified them as Jewish believers, 12,000 from each tribe, who were sealed by God and protected during the tribulation.
SPEAKER_01: Now Revelation 14 is showing them as victorious.
SPEAKER_01: The beast had not defeated them.
SPEAKER_01: The Antichrist has not destroyed them.
SPEAKER_01: And the seal of God has accomplished exactly what God intended.
SPEAKER_01: Now, Mount Zion is referenced here and it refers to Jerusalem and is frequently associated with God's kingdom.
SPEAKER_01: Specifically, the Messiah's range and the gathering of God's people.
SPEAKER_01: Throughout the Old Testament, Zion becomes a symbol of God's victorious rule.
SPEAKER_01: We find this in Psalm 48, Isaiah 24 and verse 23, Joel chapter 2, verse 32, and Micah chapter 4, verse 1 through 7.
SPEAKER_01: The lamb stands where he rightfully belongs as king.
SPEAKER_01: Now, I do want to look at the contrast of this concerning Revelation 13.
SPEAKER_01: In Revelation 13, if we remember, the beast dominates, the world worships him and worships him, and the saints are persecuted.
SPEAKER_01: However, in Revelation 14, the lamb stands victorious, the redeemed stand secure, and God's servants remain faithful.
SPEAKER_01: The chapter immediately reminds believers that Satan's victories are temporary.
SPEAKER_01: Whereas the victories of Christ is and are eternal.
SPEAKER_01: God's promises of protection are never empty promises.
SPEAKER_01: And that's why a key truth of this is that the beast may persecute God's people, but he cannot ultimately defeat those who belong to the Lamb.
SPEAKER_01: Now, we remember that the Father's name is on their foreheads.
SPEAKER_01: John notices this, and he specifically says, having his father's name written on their foreheads, it is a direct contrast to the mark of the beast from Revelation 13.
SPEAKER_01: There are now two groups that are on the earth.
SPEAKER_01: Those that are marked by the beast, representing the allegiance to the world system or rebellion against God, and those that are sealed by God who represent ownership by God, protection by God, and of course, faithfulness or loyalty to Christ.
SPEAKER_01: Now, God's mark of ownership, that seal demonstrates identity, protection, and belonging.
SPEAKER_01: This is a reminder of our true identity because the world constantly pressures people to find identity in politics, in nationality or success or wealth, even personal achievement.
SPEAKER_01: But scripture teaches that a believer's primary identity is found in belonging to God.
SPEAKER_01: The greatest identity that the person can possess is belonging to the Lord.
SPEAKER_01: And then in all this, John hears this new song, and John hears it as many waters, loud thunder, harps playing, and he hears that new song that only the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn.
SPEAKER_01: It does give us or causes us to ask why a new song.
SPEAKER_01: Some of these can be found in Psalm 40, verse 3, Psalm 96, verse 1, and Psalm 98, verse 1.
SPEAKER_01: This song is celebrating the faithfulness of God through the tribulation.
SPEAKER_01: So there is worship and there is victory, and the worship of the 144,000 demonstrates that suffering never has the final word.
SPEAKER_01: The end of the story is not persecution.
SPEAKER_01: The end of their story is worship.
SPEAKER_01: And God's faithfulness during those trials that they are enduring becomes the foundational or the foundation of eternal worship.
SPEAKER_01: Those who remain faithful through suffering will one day sing songs of victory.
SPEAKER_01: Let's look at verses four through five.
SPEAKER_01: These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have been kept themselves chast.
SPEAKER_01: And they are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.
SPEAKER_01: These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
SPEAKER_01: And no lie was found in their mouth.
SPEAKER_01: They're faithful to the Lamb.
SPEAKER_01: They're redeemed from among men.
SPEAKER_01: They are first fruits to God.
SPEAKER_01: They're truthful, and they're blameless before God.
SPEAKER_01: Specifically, they follow the Lamb, which is summarizing true discipleship.
SPEAKER_01: Meaning that as they follow Jesus, they are trusting him, they are obeying him, and they're remaining faithful regardless of their circumstances, their trials, or tribulation.
SPEAKER_01: 144,000 are called first fruits.
SPEAKER_01: If we remember, first fruits indicate the beginning of a harvest or a pledge of more that is to come.
SPEAKER_01: They represent God's continuing work among Israel.
SPEAKER_01: Discipleship in this is definitely during a difficult time because we see that the greatest characteristic of this of these believers is not in their power, it's their faithfulness.
SPEAKER_01: They follow the lamb when the world chooses to follow the beast.
SPEAKER_01: Reality is faithfulness to Christ is the defining mark of true discipleship.
SPEAKER_01: In verses six through seven, we read, And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven and having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth and every nation and every tribe, tongue of people.
SPEAKER_01: And he said with a loud voice, Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.
SPEAKER_01: Worship him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.
SPEAKER_01: John sees this angel flying in mid-heaven, and the angel is proclaiming the everlasting gospel.
SPEAKER_01: Well, who to?
SPEAKER_01: According to the scripture, to every tribe, every nation, every tongue, every people.
SPEAKER_01: But why an angel?
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, when we look in the Bible, that normally God would entrust the proclamation of the gospel to believers.
SPEAKER_01: This is the only place in the New Testament where an angel is specifically seen preaching the gospel to the entire world.
SPEAKER_01: The angel declares, for God, fear God and give him glory, and worship him who made heaven and earth.
SPEAKER_01: At this point, the world has worshipped the beast and the image, and of course, Satan's kingdom.
SPEAKER_01: And now God is calling humanity back to the Creator.
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because even during the tribulation, God continues extending opportunities for repentance.
SPEAKER_01: There is a, for lack of better word, or saying, there's a last call of mercy.
SPEAKER_01: Judgment is coming, yet mercy is still available.
SPEAKER_01: And this angel represents one of God's final invitations before judgment falls.
SPEAKER_01: God's mercy continues reaching people even in the midst of judgment.
SPEAKER_01: So before judgment reaches its climax, God gives one final call to repentance.
SPEAKER_01: In verse 8.
SPEAKER_02: Says it twice.
SPEAKER_01: And even though we will see when we get there eventually, Babylon's full destruction being detailed in Revelation 17 and 18, God is actually declaring the fall before it occurs.
SPEAKER_01: So what exactly is Babylon?
SPEAKER_01: Well, we know that Babylon represents organized rebellion against God.
SPEAKER_01: We know that it represents a false religion, a corrupt political system or plural systems.
SPEAKER_01: And we also know it represents human pride.
SPEAKER_01: Babylon began historically in Genesis 11 at the Tower of Babel, and it reaches its final expression in the book of Revelation.
SPEAKER_01: Her fall, well, it's certain because every system built in opposition to God eventually collapses, and no rebellion ever survives forever.
SPEAKER_01: Every kingdom built apart from God ultimately falls.
SPEAKER_01: In verses 9 through 11, it says, Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast in his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength, in the cup of his anger.
SPEAKER_01: He will be tormented with the fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy angels, and then the presence of the lamb.
SPEAKER_01: And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.
SPEAKER_01: They will have no rest day and night.
SPEAKER_01: Those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
SPEAKER_01: This is one of the more unnerving set of scriptures that you'll really come across, in my opinion, in the entire Bible.
SPEAKER_01: This third angel has this strong warning that anyone who worships the beast, worship the images, or receives his mark will experience God's judgment.
SPEAKER_01: That mark of the beast, we got to notice the connection that receiving the mark is not accidental.
SPEAKER_01: In other words, people that are going to receive the mark, it's not, oops, I didn't know what I was doing and I accidentally received the mark.
SPEAKER_01: And I say that because a lot of times you'll hear people say, Well, how will we know whether it's not what happens if I am going in for something medical or I need it for um, you know, technology, whatever, and I don't want to accidentally receive the mark of the beast.
SPEAKER_01: Truthfully, receiving the mark is not accidental because it's tied to worship, alliance, or allegiance, and loyalty.
SPEAKER_01: No one unknowingly will receive the mark.
SPEAKER_01: Now, the angel describes the wine of the wrath of God.
SPEAKER_01: Throughout scripture, God's wrath is often pictured as a cup.
SPEAKER_01: For example, Psalm 75 and 8, and Jeremiah 25 and 15.
SPEAKER_01: Jesus willingly drank the cup of judgment for believers at the cross.
SPEAKER_01: If we remember, he's in the Garden of Gethsemane, and he specifically says, Father, if it be your will, let this cup pass from me.
SPEAKER_01: Nevertheless, he took that cup.
SPEAKER_01: Those who reject him, Jesus, will face God's judgment themselves.
SPEAKER_01: There is this often trying to think of the right word in this, so I can't think of how I want to describe this.
SPEAKER_01: So I'm just going to say it this way: there is a reality of eternal judgment.
SPEAKER_01: John states that the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever.
SPEAKER_01: That language emphasizes a conscious judgment, an ongoing judgment, and a judgment that is eternal.
SPEAKER_01: This is one of the scriptures that gives us the clearest description of the reality of hell.
SPEAKER_01: God's warnings reveal both his justice and his mercy.
SPEAKER_01: God's just judgment is real, and his warnings, well, they should never be ignored, although, of course, man has had a history of doing that.
SPEAKER_01: In Revelation 14, verse 12 to 13, it says, Here's the preservation of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: And I heard a voice from heaven saying, Write, blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.
SPEAKER_01: Yes, says the Spirit, so that they may rest from their labors and from their deeds follow with them.
SPEAKER_01: Now, what are we even talking about here?
SPEAKER_01: This is describing after the judgment, John now is turning towards believers and says, Here's the preservation of the saints.
SPEAKER_01: The saints are identified as those who keep God's commandments and they remain faithful to Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because the Spirit declares, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord.
SPEAKER_01: Well, why?
SPEAKER_01: How are you blessed if you die in the Lord?
SPEAKER_01: Well, realistically, the suffering ends, the laboring ends, and the reward begins.
SPEAKER_01: Now, here's the the contrast of that.
SPEAKER_01: And we have to not only acknowledge this, we have to recognize it because the wicked are experiencing no rest and eternal judgment, while the righteous experience rest, reward, and eternal fellowship with God.
SPEAKER_01: And that contrast could not be greater.
SPEAKER_01: The trials of the righteous, they are temporary, but the reward is eternal.
SPEAKER_01: In verse 14 through 16, it says, And I looked and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like the Son of Man, having a gold, golden crown, and on his head, and a sharp sickle in his right hand.
SPEAKER_01: Sorry, didn't mean to say right.
SPEAKER_01: And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud put in your sickle and reap.
SPEAKER_01: For the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.
SPEAKER_01: Then he who sat on the clouds swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.
SPEAKER_01: Whoa.
SPEAKER_01: John sees one like the Son of Man, which is Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_01: He wears a golden crown, he has a sharp sickle, and the angel is going to announce that the harvest of the earth is ripe, which suggests that something is fully matured.
SPEAKER_01: Now, here's the thing: God's judgment is not uh God's judgment is not premature.
SPEAKER_01: The earth has become fully ripe for judgment.
SPEAKER_01: God never judges too early.
SPEAKER_01: Throughout history, people have often asked, why does God wait?
SPEAKER_01: Revelation 14 is going to answer it because God is patient, yet eventually the harvest becomes ripe and judgment comes.
SPEAKER_01: God's judgment always arrives at the perfect time.
SPEAKER_01: Although we're all going to argue with that from time to time, especially myself.
SPEAKER_01: Verses 17 through 20 says, And another angel came out of the temple, which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.
SPEAKER_01: And another angel, one who has the power over fire, came out of the altar, and he came with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.
SPEAKER_01: So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth and threw them into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
SPEAKER_01: And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the winepress up to the horses' bridles for a distance of 200 miles.
SPEAKER_01: Well, if this doesn't give you an image of something, a second harvest is described.
SPEAKER_01: Grapes are gathered, the winepress is prepared, and God's wrath is executed.
SPEAKER_01: In ancient times, grapes were crushed underfoot.
SPEAKER_01: So this winepress is giving us something of a symbol.
SPEAKER_01: In other words, symbolizing complete judgment, certain judgment, and inescapable judgment.
SPEAKER_01: John describes a overwhelming, tremendous amount of carnage.
SPEAKER_01: The picture, well, it's pointing us to Armageddon.
SPEAKER_01: It's placing our focus on the return of Christ and the destruction of the world's rebellion.
SPEAKER_01: This is a final answer to Revelation 13 because Revelation 13 it left readers wondering: will the beast win?
SPEAKER_01: Will Satan triumph?
SPEAKER_01: And will God's people survive?
SPEAKER_01: Where now Revelation 14 is answering all those questions because the lamb stands victorious and the redeemed stands secure.
SPEAKER_01: Babylon falls, judgment comes, God reigns.
SPEAKER_01: So what appears victorious today may already be doomed in God's eyes.
SPEAKER_01: The final outcome of history has already been determined, that the lamb wins.
SPEAKER_01: In Revelation 14, it serves as heaven's answer to the apparent triumph of the beast.
SPEAKER_01: This chapter teaches us that the lamb stands victorious, and God's people remain secure.
SPEAKER_01: The gospel continues to be proclaimed.
SPEAKER_01: Babylon's fall is certain.
SPEAKER_01: God's judgment is righteous, and believers are called to preserve or preservate uh word I'm trying to get in my head.
SPEAKER_01: Uh persevering.
SPEAKER_01: Or to yeah, persevering.
SPEAKER_01: Believers are called to a life where they are persevering.
SPEAKER_01: The harvest of the earth is approaching, and Christ will ultimately judge evil and establish his kingdom.
SPEAKER_01: Although Revelation 13 reveals the temporary rise of Satan's kingdom, Revelation 14 is reminding us of an eternal truth.
SPEAKER_01: The beast in his kingdom is temporary, but the lamb's kingdom is forever.
SPEAKER_01: The lamb stands victorious, and his people stand with him, and God's final judgment will bring history to its appointed conclusion.
SPEAKER_01: Now, last week I had given you a printout of Revelation 13.
SPEAKER_01: If you remember this, it had a combination of Revelation 13 and 14.
SPEAKER_01: So you have this.
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna bring this back up so you could go back into this.
SPEAKER_01: The timeline so that we kind of get a little bit of an understanding of this because this gives us um a little bit of uh an understanding of what is taking place in this.
SPEAKER_01: So you have Revelation 13 and 14, the beast worshippers made to drink God's wrath, beasts from the sea, the beast from the earth, and the great harvest.
SPEAKER_01: And we see this in also Daniel chapter 9, verse 27, and then we have abomination of desolation again in Daniel 9, 27, and Matthew 24, 15 through 21, and then the end of the age, uh, second coming of Christ, Daniel 2, 45, Daniel 7, 13 through 14, Matthew 24, 29 through 31, and of course that date is unknown.
SPEAKER_01: Now, Revelation 13 gave us the dragon's preparation, uh, the beast from the sea.
SPEAKER_01: We know also that it is also the rise of the Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 through 12, and the beast from the earth, Revelation 13, 11 through 18.
SPEAKER_01: If we go over to the right, Revelation 14, which is where we are, we have the three angels that are mentioned here.
SPEAKER_01: We have that in verses 6 through 13, and the great harvest, Revelation 14, 14 through 20.
SPEAKER_01: But you have that future interlude, the 144,000, Revelation 14, 1 and 5.
SPEAKER_01: So I seeing all this, you know, it's one of these things that is extremely challenging, and um the timeline can very easily get confusing.
SPEAKER_01: We see in the little box beginning with 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 through 12, the rise of the Antichrist, final apostasy of the church, man's lawlessness is revealed, and his self-exaltation within that apostasy.
SPEAKER_01: And then we get Revelation 13, we get those.
SPEAKER_01: Now we're in Revelation 14, and we see how all that is happening.
SPEAKER_01: And of course, this is one of those things that can we specifically give the exact timeline?
SPEAKER_01: No, not always.
SPEAKER_01: The challenge is because of the way that John writes these things.
SPEAKER_01: Granted, if we were writing them, we would have the angels and the harvest before the future interlude, but the way the chapter starts, we have the 144,000 presented first, and then uh we get into the three angels and the great harvest.
SPEAKER_01: You know, all this stuff chronologically would make sense to us, and I get that.
SPEAKER_01: So we do have to take a step back and look at this.
SPEAKER_01: This is the reason, you know, creating this image and trying to give something that would bring some kind of clarity, although I will wholeheartedly admit it's still going to get very confusing.
SPEAKER_01: And to be able to nail that timeline exactly to how that looks according to the way that John writes in this, honestly, it can be overwhelming at times.
SPEAKER_01: So let's just for the sake of things, let's look at another image that um is the overall basis of what Revelation 14 is.
SPEAKER_01: Revelation 14, overall, the 144,000 redeemed, and they sing a new song.
SPEAKER_01: There is a call to endurance, patience and faith of the saints, blessed are the dead in Christ, the rest of the Lord in heaven.
SPEAKER_01: Those are beautiful, beautiful um portraits within this chapter of the redemption, the grace, the mercy of God.
SPEAKER_01: This chapter also gives us the three angel messages where we're told to fear God, worship him, but we're also told that Babylon's day is coming and they Babylon will fall.
SPEAKER_01: And there's this warning of this judgment.
SPEAKER_01: We get the wrath of the wicked, or the wrath of wrath, the judgment of the wicked, and we get that final judgment, the destruction of the ungodly, and we get the harvest of the earth.
SPEAKER_01: Jesus reigns to reap the earth.
SPEAKER_01: Now, again, when you look at this image and you're seeing it on the screen right now, it and you know, part of this can look extremely overwhelming, especially when we get to the judgment of the wicked, we get to the destruction of the ungodly, we get the fear of God, worship him, the fall of Babylon, the warning of judgment.
SPEAKER_01: All those things look horrendous.
SPEAKER_01: But don't let those things have a greater um revelation in your understanding than what God is also doing in Revelation 14 here.
SPEAKER_01: The 144,000 are redeemed, and they have that new song.
SPEAKER_01: There's that call to endure the blessed of those who are dead in Christ and how they will rest and be rewarded in heaven, and that harvest of the earth.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it seems overwhelming.
SPEAKER_01: I get it.
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm definitely not trying to make it less heavy than what it is, because this truly is, you know, Revelation 13 and Revelation 14 are weighty chapters.
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's not it's not Revelation 12.
SPEAKER_01: In Revelation 12, man, we get excited, we get pumped up, we know what uh you can just feel the you know the tangible presence of God, and then all of a sudden 13 hits us, and it's just feels like, oh my goodness, the enemy is just winning in this in Revelation 14.
SPEAKER_01: It still in some ways feels like the enemy is winning, although clearly the enemy is not, and that's what the heartbeat of Revelation 14 is.
SPEAKER_01: And I want you to understand that.
SPEAKER_01: I want you to try to get a hold of that, although I will acknowledge at the same time that, yeah, it's still challenging because we're fresh off of Revelation 13.
SPEAKER_01: And it's also challenging because of how John writes, just like the interludes that we've had in other chapters, or even going back two weeks ago to Revelation 12, how you're talking about one moment and then you're you know, speeding up to the very end of things, and then you're back at a moment, the timeline can get very chaotic.
SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, I acknowledge that, Pastor acknowledge that, or any theologian, historian, or student of the book of Revelation, the timeline can get very, very, very challenging to understand because of how quickly it moves from one area to the other.
SPEAKER_01: For example, just thinking about Revelation 14, why does it even mention that Babylon is going to fall if we're not going to get into the destruction or the falling of Babylon till later in the book of Revelation?
SPEAKER_01: Well, as with anything, when we're talking about prophecy, and especially with end-time prophecy, there are a lot of forthcoming or foreshadowing prophetic words.
SPEAKER_01: And all those have a significant role, a significant effect and a plan.
SPEAKER_01: But again, I think one thing I want to leave you with this, and then I'm going to turn this over to Pastor to answer any questions that you may have concerning this chapter.
SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things that I really want you to understand is for me, Revelation 13 and 14 is one of those chapters that screams these events have not yet happened.
SPEAKER_01: As we've mentioned so many times before, um, there's a lot of people that would look at the book of Revelation and they would believe that it is nothing more than a historical book.
SPEAKER_01: It is a historical reference.
SPEAKER_01: All these things came to fruition.
SPEAKER_01: They came to pass in 70 AD.
SPEAKER_01: For me, this is my opinion.
SPEAKER_01: So take this with a grain of salt, however, you want to view this, and feel free to disagree with me.
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I'm not trying to change anyone's idea about anything.
SPEAKER_01: I think the greatest instructor through all this is Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_01: I do get to participate in this, but I'm not the end-all of end-all on this.
SPEAKER_01: But I believe when you look, especially if we go back to last week's lesson on chapter 13 and we look at chapter 14, because it's really hard to separate these two, but if we connect these two, I believe it's extremely difficult to portray these events as already happened or occurred.
SPEAKER_01: Now, granted, I know that those that would say that it has, they have their reasons, they have their explanations, and they have their theories around that.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not pointing the finger of accusation or condemnation towards anyone.
SPEAKER_01: I just simply look, and if you're a student of history and you look at this stuff, specifically what 13 and 14 is describing, it is hard to point the finger and say, this is that.
SPEAKER_01: Now, with saying that, you're also going to run into individuals who say, Well, these are all allegory.
SPEAKER_01: This is um John just using things to describe something, but it really wasn't that thing in the natural.
SPEAKER_01: Um, again, I think that this is again my opinion.
SPEAKER_01: So take this for however you want.
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a cop-out.
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I believe that that is a cheap excuse not to be able to give a true biblical explanation and just to chalk it up as an allegory of something that John was describing.
SPEAKER_01: For me, I, you know, I just like, come on.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, there's people that when we talk about the the um the uh plagues that hit Egypt, there are many people that believe that those things were not real, those plagues were not real, locusts really didn't fall, the sea didn't turn blood, the Red Sea, even when Moses took the children of Israel out of Egypt, they'll say the Red Sea never split.
SPEAKER_01: I've even seen people say that the Red Sea was nothing more than like a foot deep, and the reason it split and they walked on dry ground.
SPEAKER_01: You know, to me that's comical because if it was only a foot deep, I think it says a whole lot more uh radically crazy to think that Pharaoh and his armies drown in a foot deep of water.
SPEAKER_01: Can you drown in a foot deep of water?
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
SPEAKER_01: You know, we hear of people that drown in in just a little bit of water all the time, but something significantly happened to create that cause that.
SPEAKER_01: So I think the thing that we've got to look when we look at this chapter and we study this chapter and we break it down, the thing that we have to remember is be careful not to try to force your identity, your idea of what happened into something that has yet not been truly uh revealed or articulated in the fullness of what it is.
SPEAKER_01: Again, I think the most important thing of all this is we never lose sight that this is the revelation of Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_01: And that is the most important and significant thing of all these chapters.