Learning to Follow the Call with Dr. Kellie Sanders

Ten years into teaching, Kellie Sanders heard a woman at a backyard party mention that she had been a middle school principal. Her head whipped around. In all her years in education, she had never seen a woman in that role. That moment — what Kellie calls her "unicorn" — set off a chain of crossings she never could have mapped in advance.

In this conversation, Kellie traces the arc of her becoming: the lightning-bolt epiphany in a middle school classroom. The slow pull toward school leadership that cost her a relationship. And, the grinding doubt of two early principalships that left her asking a hard question — what's the common denominator here? Me. She talks honestly about the tension between calling and selfishness, the difference between a voice that invites and one that compels, and what it took to keep stepping forward even when she wasn’t sure which way to go.

To carry with you:

• Where in your life have you heard a voice calling you toward something you couldn't yet fully see?
• When doubt has made you question your direction, what has helped you find your footing again?

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Dr. Kellie Sanders spent over thirty years in education — as a teacher, principal, and district leader. She is the co-founder of Lifeline for Courageous Leadership and co-author of The Courage to Lead and The Courage to Grow. She works with leaders navigating change and growth. Kellie can be reached at lifeline4leaders.com.

I'm Jennie Snyder, a leadership coach and the host of Traveling Companions. I created this podcast for anyone standing in that uncertain space between who they've been and who they're becoming. You don't have to travel it alone.

Podcast artwork by Desirae Rivera (desirae.design)
Music "Through the Years" by Roots and Recognition, The Bittersweet

🌐 travelingcompanionspodcast.com | 📧 [email] | [LinkedIn]

Transcript

Conversation begins

Jennie 0:46

Welcome, Kellie, and I'll just let you introduce yourself in whatever way feels right.

Kellie 0:53

Thanks, Jennie. I feel truly blessed to be here with you today and to have this conversation. We've had many over probably the last 15 years, I think, that we've known each other. My background is very centered in education. Started teaching, moved into administration, school administration, then district administration. Currently, I do a lot of work with leadership coaching and consulting. We do, my business partner and I do a lot of work with working directly with school districts and leadership teams as they soar up their strategic plans and things that they're focusing on. And then we bring in some of the bare bones leadership tactics that we all need in order to move us towards success. That is what I'm currently doing now, and still loving doing that. And I don't be giving that up anytime soon.

Jennie 1:52

What was a moment in your life when you could no longer go back to who you were and who you were becoming wasn't yet clear?

Kellie 2:03

I love that question. Okay, I think I'm gonna talk through two pivotal ones. And mine started way back in my early 20s. I thought that my dream and desire was to be an athletic trainer at a college or university in the United States. And so I was the head athletic student trainer at Northern Illinois University. I loved traveling with sports teams, helping heal various injuries. But then I had to do my student teaching in order to finish up my college career. And my degree was in health education. And so my first student teaching experience was teaching middle school health. And the first day I stood in front of a classroom of middle schoolers, I felt like I had an epiphany. I have a huge faith base in my life. And so I have always been open to hearing a call. And it was almost like I was struck by lightning. And I was like, okay, well, this is what I'm going to do. And so I had been an athletic trainer when I was in high school. So I knew that to be a high school athletic trainer, you taught all day, then you were in the training room or at sports events until 10 o'clock at night. And then you slept for a few hours and you woke up and you had to do it all over again. And I just knew that wasn't the lifestyle that I wanted. And so I knew that I could not go back. I didn't even take my athletic training certification exams after spending a lot of money on the program. But I just knew that God really wanted me to teach and to make a difference in the lives of students. So that's the pivotal direction. That was sort of my first becoming moment that I knew I couldn't go back and do what I thought was my dream and my desire. And I now had to forge a new path. Nobody would think standing in front of a group of middle schoolers that was it. I don't know. I think it was, you know, I had worked with high schoolers before, and I had worked with college students before, and there was just the look in these kids' eyes, and it was just their engagement, how they engaged with each other, how they engaged with me, even just the minutia of being in a middle school and walking down the hallway, and kids saying, Hi, Miss Sanders, and just the connection that I made with them. And I think it was just the whole package. Um but I just knew that every day was just I felt like I was making a difference. And I just feel like I was placed here to help people and in whatever way that I could. So I just felt like it was so life affirming for them and for myself.

Jennie 6:04

What was your next step from there?

Kellie 6:08

So my next step from there was that my dream didn't come true right away. So in a way, it was okay, you asked for it, here we go, but here are some of the little hurdles that we're gonna go through to kind of get to that next stage. And so it was almost like my way of affirming that that's really the direction I really wanted to go. And each of those moments was a moment I got a teaching position at a middle school. Same feelings, right? All the feels were there. This is where I'm supposed to be, this is what I'm supposed to be doing on this earth. Yep.

Unicorn

Kellie 6:52

And one day, 10 years into teaching, I was at a summer party, and there was a new couple who had just moved into the area, and I was overhearing one of the women talk about that she had been a middle school principal. And my head whipped around so fast because I thought that is a unicorn.

Jennie 7:25

What was the unicorn?

Kellie 7:27

Just that I'd never actually seen in the wild a female middle school principal. Every administrator that I had ever had in my teaching career, both principal and assistant principal or vice principal or whatever, had always been men. And so that somebody had been a woman, had been a middle school principal, that's unheard of. And that unicorn, Chris, just set me on a path that I just would have never ever imagined. How did that happen? I got a job at the new middle school, and the whole time Chris kept saying, You'd be really good at school administration. And I said it would be a cold day in hell before I was ever in administrator. Because all I ever saw was the ugly side of it, and I only saw men who were doing that job. And it just I loved teaching, and everything led me to I needed to stay in the classroom. And so finally I got the question from her why not? Why don't you want to go into leadership? You're already leading in so many ways. And I said, Because I just don't want to leave the classroom. I love being in the classroom. And she said to me that I would not be leaving the classroom, that my classroom was just going to get bigger. And I was going to have a greater impact on more children and families and teachers by moving into administration. I started my master's program, and that was a huge becoming moment for me in a lot of ways because my relationship that I thought was a very healthy relationship got very challenged by that. That becoming moment wasn't just professionally becoming something different. It was at a personal level as well.

Jennie 9:50

And what was the hardest part about being in that place?

Kellie 9:58

I think there was a battle within me about am I doing this to make a difference in the world as a whole? Is this where what God is now calling me to do? Is this my bigger calling, or am I being selfish?

Jennie 10:21

Curious. Say more about that.

Kellie 10:23

When you decide to do something, that really there is that internal drive, just became the loudest voice. There was a little bit of, you know, well, I love taking my classes and I love learning and I love my master's program, but I'm not at home, I'm not making dinner, I'm not pulling my weight around the house. And so am I being selfish by going down this road? I was more of a caretaker in my previous relationship. So it was just a lot of that internal turmoil of who and what am I doing this for? And is it just to better myself, or is it really to better the world? Where did you land with that question? I ended up being an assistant superintendent at some point, and I left that relationship. So I think I landed in that the calling, which I still think is God, right? That God calling was much greater than all of the other voices around me. I I wasn't doing it for Chris, even though she was such a strong mentor that she showed me the doors and windows to other opportunities, but there was never a thou shalt go and do. It was very invitational. And the outside supports were reinforcing the call and that selfish stuff. As soon as I left that relationship, that definitely went poof. And everybody else was like, oh my gosh, of course, this is exactly where you should go.

Jennie 12:18

In your first story about Epiphany, standing in front of those middle school students in the journey toward becoming a school leader, you named a calling. I'm curious how you see those two.

Kellie 12:34

I jokingly say that it was an epiphany moment in the backyard of our friend's house when I heard about this middle school unicorn, but I think that was a kind of niggling of one. Like, okay, you've done what I've asked so far. Now I'm gonna challenge you to do more. And so I just think it was just a voice saying, listen, just listen. People have said that you should lead things. People come to you and ask for your advice or your support or just to listen. And so when I started adding those things up and listening to Chris say that my classroom was just going to be bigger and I was gonna make a greater impact, I think those were just steps to continue to get to maybe what my ultimate calling was. I just kept accepting uh those sort of becoming moments and becoming that next uh ideation of uh whatever.

Jennie 13:49

And in those uh steps of your becoming the leader, I'm really struck by how your perspective affected from uh I'm in a service to kids in a classroom. That is who I'm here for. Maybe my classroom uh can be bigger and I can maybe have a bigger impact. What did that shift in your perspective make possible for you?

Kellie 14:23

I think it made possible for me to have a much better and deeper understanding of the whole child. Like I got to see kids in a classroom, I got to know them, know their siblings, know where they came from. It was a deeper dive into children's lives and helping teachers with that. When I moved into administration, I just recognized that sometimes they need somebody to help them with a different perspective and to say, you know, our children are having becoming moments every single day. And we need to be aware of it and we need to support them when they want to try on this skin for a day, and then the next day they want to try on a different skin.

Jennie 15:21

As you made that shift in your perspective and took on this role, in what ways were you called upon to grow?

Kellie 15:33

When I was in middle school to have kids that just came out of juvie or find out that they, you know, were having a baby or having a child parent die. I think I'm gonna back up just a second because a lot of this comes back to in my mind that resiliency, right? To to help people be resilient and emotionally flexible to navigate what can happen on any given day. I think I just learned to kind of ride those waves without letting it, it can't break you. If I truly believe that this is where I'm supposed to go, then I'm supposed to be able to navigate those difficult positions.

Jennie 16:24

And in your journey, were there any times when you really felt this is really hard?

Kellie 16:31

Yeah, so it's interesting because just like I had the epiphany about teaching, my first elementary principalship was two years long. I was getting out of that first relationship, and I had a staff that didn't quite understand why a middle school teacher would want to be an elementary principal. And anytime something difficult happened, it was always like, well, you were a middle school teacher, you don't know. I moved to the suburbs of Chicago, and I had always been an urban school and very diverse, and I got into an elite, very high socioeconomic area. So any child that did not fit the mold of an elite was less than, must be special ed. I don't know why they're coming to school here. They should just go back to wherever. I was there for two years, and that staff just battered me for two years, two years of just being battered.

Jennie 17:51

And what was that like for you? That was hard. What was the most difficult part about that for you?

Kellie 18:01

I think the backstabbing was the hardest. Things that I wasn't aware of that all of a sudden, like district office would become aware of. I didn't show up for one observation that I was supposed to do because I had an angry parent in the office. I had spoken directly with the teacher afterwards. I'm so sorry, that shouldn't have happened. I won't make you redo all your paperwork or whatever. That thing haunted me for two years. And things were just getting told to the, you know, they got the ear of the superintendent. And so I just felt like I just couldn't like right-size anything. And I I felt like I could still make a difference in that school.

Doubts

Kellie 18:49

And so I was in my second year there, and I was in my doctoral program at the time, and so I had a colleague in my classes that was like, you should come to this, you should apply, you should come here. So I did. I was like, I don't like to leave a place that I feel like I could still make a difference, but I just it was just so difficult. I just felt like I had a target on my back all the time. And so I had doubts, right? Those are those times where I was like, first principalship hard, second principalship hard. What is the common denominator? Yeah, me. And so I was like, maybe this isn't what I've been called to do. Maybe this isn't where I'm supposed to be making a difference because I don't seem to be doing that.

Handling grief with staff

Kellie 19:42

And in the moment that I applied and interviewed, and they were offering me a position at the next district, one of our teachers in my building had a baby that only lived for two days. And the staff was just mortified, like it broke that entire staff, and I did what I would have done, right? I rose to the occasion, I did all of the things, and that staff couldn't say enough good things about me. They were like, I'm you you led us so well through that. I can't believe you did that. I can't believe you offered us opportunities to grieve, and you came and let us have breaks, and you let us go see her. And and so they offered me the position at this new district, and I said, No. I said, I think I can do this. I think I'm gonna stay where I'm at. I owe it to this staff to keep working and striving to help them make things better. And then one month after all that happened, they were all back to it. It was like slowing down after an accident, right? You know, you just they they kind of slowed down, and then it was like we were right back at it. And so went home. I had that district that offered me the position, call me back and say, We have another principalship. Are you sure that you don't want to come here? And I talked to Chris a lot about it, and I'm like, I just that's the hard part about being faith-based, is that there are times where you just don't know which is the call and which is just you. How do you make that choice? I think ultimately this is kind of where I landed. I was an emotional wreck, and I wasn't gonna be able to help. This school needed something different, and I was going to be stubborn, and that's where that selfish thing comes. Back in, right? So am I being selfish or am I actually moving towards what I'm supposed to do? And I just realized that I don't really focus as much on myself, but it my life balance at that point was pretty rocky. And I was like, I don't need other people to tear my self-esteem down. Like I think I know I'm doing the right thing, but boy, if I get into this third principal ship and this sucks, then I think I know that this isn't really what I'm supposed to be doing. And I said, I'll come back to interview for this other principalship, but I want to go through the whole process. Don't place me there. I want to run the whole process and let them decide. And so that's what I did.

Jennie 22:54

And so it sounds like you went through this process of you had this calling to be of service to make a difference and bumping up against a realization that maybe this isn't the place for me, or maybe I'm not the one to make a difference here. Right. What was it like to stand in that place?

Kellie 23:25

It was scary, I'll be honest, because there were there was a part of me that kind of felt like I was failing,

From failure to uncertainty to joy

Kellie 23:37

obviously, when people say that you're not doing well. And I was sad. I remember when the other district called me back and said they want you, and I need a decision on this. I remember calling Chris at that time in the car and just trying. And like I said, she's always been asking a lot of questions. And so it was sort of like, what's the harm in trying something new? Like you've made a lot of changes in your life. You've done well with all of them. Right now, things don't seem great, but you have made a difference where you are. That unspoken, like we won mentality. And but in the end, it was exactly where I was supposed to go. It was exactly what I was supposed to do. And then that led me on to many more opportunities and so much joy. And they were calling me at the end of June to say, we want you to take this position. So me, a brand new AP as well, who applied for the same position that I got. So it was dangerous. I was like, this could also go very far south. And it was the most beautiful principal ship I have ever, ever been in. And I still have so much contact with that staff.

Jennie 25:22

Wow. So you went into it going, this could turn out badly. And I'm hearing you use words like joy, and you're still in connection with the staff there. And beautiful. And I what made that beautiful?

Kellie 25:42

I came in a little bit more intentional with that staff. I was very intentional with verbiage. There were many people that loved that the principal and assistant principal were gone. And there were many people that were sad, mad, and angry that the principal and assistant principal were gone. And so my first meeting with the entire staff was about grieving. And that we need to allow people to grieve the loss in whatever way that they need to. And for those of you who might be okay, happy, elated, please understand that not all your colleagues feel the same way. And let's honor each other to feel what we feel and then to be ready for the school year to get started because we owe it to our kids to do that. And that I got great feedback from that. Like you gave us space. And you just didn't tell us that we have to just put on our big girl and big boy pants and move forward. Wow. To give them space for any emotion that they brought to those changes and that transition. Yeah. Yeah. So if you look across these different moments when you have been called, when you were between those two principleships and not sure which direction to go, what made it possible for you to take that next step? I think it goes back to my first becoming moments. Right? Because once you step into something different than you thought was your trajectory, I've often said it makes it so much easier to make the next one and the next one.

Jennie 27:53

What did you learn about yourself in that process of taking that step, of taking the next step?

Kellie 28:02

I'll go back to resiliency. There's I feel like I was resilient to be able to do it and open to it. I think you have to have an openness and you have to move beyond fear. Fear just keeps you frozen. And I kept hearing that voice that was like, this isn't where your leadership ends. Moving from that elite suburban school district, there was a little bit of that too. Maybe that's not where I'm supposed to make the biggest difference.

Jennie 28:45

Kellie, as you sort of stepping back from the thresholds that you've crossed in your life and career, sum it up in an insight that you're taking from those reflections.

Kellie 29:03

I think the biggest insight is to always be a consummate learner about not only where you currently stand in the world, but to be open to the possibilities that you can't even envision. And if you can be in both of those places at the same time, I just think it's such a gift. It's worth all the hard things.

Jennie 29:38

Thank you, Kellie. I just want to appreciate you for sharing your journey, the high points, the low points, the parts in between. And I feel like I have through this conversation really learned more about you and those moments that you were really called upon to really lean on that resilience that you talked about and those doubts and how you navigated that. I just really appreciate you sharing that with me and with us today.

Kellie 30:14

Thank you, Jennie, for creating the space. And I hope other people are able to take advantage of this space with you and to share their becoming moments in the future.

Speaker 30:25

So just want to wrap up by asking you, Kellie, where can people find you if they want to get in touch?

Speaker 2 30:32

Our website is Lifeline, all one word for the number four leaders, lifeline4leaders.com. And you can get a hold of us there. You can know what we are doing, and my email address is there as well. So please reach out. I would love to meet and learn about as many people as I can. So thanks.

Speaker 30:56

I will include Kellie's website and contact information in the show notes for this episode. Thank you for being here.