The Messy Middle with Vanessa Wedderburn

When Vanessa Wedderburn was laid off, the professional disruption was only the beginning. What followed was something harder to name — a slow unraveling of the identity she had built around her work, and what opened up in its place. 

In this conversation, Vanessa talks about what it's like to sit inside that uncertainty — the disorientation of not knowing who you are beyond what you do, the grief of losing something you didn't choose to let go, and the winding process of rediscovering yourself in the middle of it. 

To carry with you:

• Who am I without the roles I’ve been carrying?
• What might become possible if I let go of what no longer fits?

________________________________________________________________________________________

Vanessa Wedderburn is a communications strategist and storyteller who has spent her career helping school districts and organizations build trust through clear, thoughtful communication. She writes about her own experience of navigating transition on her Substack, Notes from Vanessa. Vanessa can be reached on LinkedIn and at vwcreativestrategy.com. 

I'm Jennie Snyder, a leadership coach and the host of Traveling Companions. I created this podcast for anyone standing in that uncertain space between who they've been and who they're becoming. You don't have to travel it alone.

Podcast artwork by Desirae Rivera (desirae.design)
Music "Through the Years" by Roots and Recognition, The Bittersweet

🌐 travelingcompanionspodcast.com | 📧 [email] | [LinkedIn]

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to Traveling Companions Stories of Becoming. This is a podcast about the in-between. Those threshold moments when we can no longer go back to who we were, and who we're becoming isn't yet clear. If you've ever stood in that space or find yourself there now, you're not alone. I'm your host, Jenny Snyder. Today I am joined by Vanessa Wedderburn, and I am delighted to have her with us today. Vanessa is a communications professional who has spent the bulk of her career working for different organizations, including school systems, nonprofits, and small businesses. Welcome, Vanessa. I'm going to let you introduce yourself in whatever way feels right.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Awesome. Thank you. Well, it's really nice to be here with you today. My name is Vanessa. I am a communications professional. Specifically, I assist public agencies, public schools, nonprofits with strategy behind communications and public relations in a consulting way. And that's a new endeavor for me to be a solo person. I am a true blue millennial, and I am going through a transition period in my lifetime because, like many Americans, I have experienced a recent layoff. Mine took place just before Christmas. But um I know that there's a lot of people that are navigating this space right now, and so I'm happy to just kind of share what's been going on with me and how I've been navigating those waters.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

We usually start off the conversations with a framing question, and you can take it in whatever direction you'd like. And the question is this what was a moment in your life when you could no longer go back to who you were and who you were becoming wasn't yet clear?

SPEAKER_01 2:19

That's a great question, and the one I'll focus on is most recently being laid off. But anyone who has lost um a family member or a loved one, you're never the same from that. Um if you've moved, you're usually never the same from that. There's all kinds of experiences, but what stands out currently for me is um not just the fact that I was laid off in December, but the fact that I was laid off from a job that I really thought I was gonna be at for an extended period of time for at least half a decade, if not more. Um, and I was in that role with people that I enjoyed, all of them to be working with and partnering on projects with. I respected my colleagues. Um, I had a lot of fun and enjoyment working there. And so it really uh it surprised me. I didn't see it coming. Um, and the layoff itself, when it took place, it was quite cold. But in reflection, I know that that's just kind of how these things have to go. Unfortunately, although we're talking about humans and and how it impacts them and their livelihood, and it's a very human thing, um, your your income and the way you support your family. However, from a job perspective, from the employer, they have liability that they have to consider. And so, although the manager who was the one who let me go over a Zoom um call, because it was I'm a remote worker, um, I don't fault her. I don't have ill feelings towards her, but it was definitely a hey, we have to let you go. And then just like that, um, HR popped on, exchanged a few words with me, and then I no longer had access to my work computer or anything. It was just poof, and that's it. That's the the end of this chapter.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah. Going back to that moment where you're in that zoom and the suddenness, and you mentioned surprise. What was that like in that moment when that all happened?

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Quite honestly, it's um it's almost like there's I remember it, and yet there's some part of me that feels like I kind of blacked out of the moment from the shock of like, oh, this is happening. Uh the timing too was was messy, you know. It was um, it was a Friday, it was the day before my wedding anniversary, it was two weeks before Christmas. I really got along so well with this manager. We got to know each other on a deeper level than just colleague to colleague. We both had a similar sense of humor. We were both into sports, and so we had that deeper connection, and it just she had sent me a message that morning and said, Hey, are you available for an 8:30 chat with me? And that's not unusual for a lot of people. Maybe that would have had the alarm bells going off. But in my day-to-day, that wasn't unusual. So I popped on and I noticed that her demeanor was just a little unsettled, and then the HR person popped on, and that's when she didn't even have to say anything. I kind of knew like where this was going, and she was tearing up. She was actually quite emotional. I could tell it was hard for her to have to let me go. And then she got off and HR did their spiel. And the entire time I was just very quiet. I was very quiet. I listened, I nodded, and I was I was asked, you know, do you have questions? This, this, and this. Nope. Because I knew in that moment nothing I could say was going to change what the outcome was going to be. The outcome was what it was. And um, I think for many people, you envision, you know, kind of a a very climactic way to go through this experience, especially if you do. I felt jilted, like to just really let them know how they're making you feel and really let it out. But um to me, it was again reflecting on it's not gonna change the outcome. So I want to be remembered from this situation as someone who was able to hold their composure and really allow this terrible thing to happen and accept it in a way that was with poise. So there would be no question should I look for future employment and nothing would remark on my professionalism. I just really felt like, and I was a little bit in shock, so kind of fond, and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

So you get out of the Zoom meeting, and what was going through your mind?

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Um okay, this is like brevity that you can have when you think about something so long ago. Uh, and I can laugh at this, is really my first thought. My very first thought was, well, I'm glad I didn't change out of my sweatpants for that. The joys of working from home. Um, and then I immediately, yeah, I just like anytime I get any kind of news, whether it's good, bad, ugly, my first thought was, well, I need to call my husband and air with him. And I remember calling him and just I just kept apologizing to him because like I kind of felt like somehow it was my fault. You know, I no longer had a solid income stream coming in to help support our household and our lifestyle and our expenses. And so I just felt like it was my fault, even though it wasn't. And so I just kept apologizing to him. And he kept telling me, stop apologizing. You don't have anything to be sorry for. But I just felt I think that that apology was coming from a place of feeling shame for having this happen to me. And um, once I started labeling it as shame and sharing that with other people who'd had somewhat of similar experiences, they also had that aha of like, oh, yes, that's exactly this kind of quiet, unspoken thing that people don't talk about. But it's this shame because we live in a culture and in a society that holds in high regard what your profession is and what you do for a living, right? Um, and that oftentimes it equates to someone's vision of success or what it means to be someone who's doing well with their life. And suddenly I had lost that, and it made me feel like very shameful, and it almost makes you think back to being in grade school, and especially if you're someone who normally gets very good grades, and you one time get that that poor remark, and you feel that in your gut, like you know you could have done better, or you know, this isn't who you are, and I think that's kind of the other thing that I started reckoning with is I'm now Vanessa the unemployed, Vanessa the person laid off. And I don't know how that fits with how I see myself. And I started to realize that I was putting so much of my identity in what I did for a living, and instead of who I am as a person.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

And yeah, you're right. We place so much value on this is what I am, this is what I do. And so I'm curious, how do you see that now?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Now I um I feel like I've seen the light. I feel brighter and lighter. Uh, and it didn't happen overnight, though. It's been a long process since December. Um, but I have been very intentionally unpacking how I felt about my own success and what that is, and really deciding to be intentional and no longer accepting what other people's idea and definition of success is, and instead embracing and asking myself, what do I think success looks like? And does it really matter to anyone that I am successful? Is is the goal success or is the goal happiness?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

And how would you define those things now?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Now I believe that as long as I am truly happy, that is my success. That's how I'm gonna define it.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

And I almost hear in that a kind of a reclaiming how you define yourself, how you define success. And I I'm wondering, um, as you've been sifting through how you've seen yourself, what has that process been like um it's been challenging but also very rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

I have had to do a lot of self-work, and it's never easy to truly look at yourself in the mirror. Like really look at the full picture you're seeing of yourself in the mirror. And I realized that there are so many forces as to why I am the type of person who seems to really care about the way I am received by others. And not necessarily in a vain sense, not in, you know, oh, I need to have these designer labels or the fancy car or anything like that, but more in just constantly worried about do other people think I'm good at this? Do other people think I can do this? Do other people it like me? You know, those those little things. And it made me realize that I was somehow the most confident, unconfident person. Like when I'm good at something, I truly am confident in my abilities. I very am. But at the same time, caring what others perceive of me so much is not something that a truly confident person would do. Um, and I'm not saying that it is truly a gender-driven thing, but in my experience, I do think a lot of it comes from being a woman and growing up as a girl in a time where society was finally starting to embrace the working woman. And I got to see being a child of the 80s and the 90s and movies like working girl, and which I love, one of my favorites. But I got to see women going to work and being professionals in a way that my mother didn't. And so with that, I think came its own pressure of as I started getting into college and I started having these wants for what I wanted my future to look like, I start surrounding myself with other wonderful women who have similar desires of wanting to be successful in their careers. And I started feeling really empowered by that. But I think it kind of went so far to that world that I even started slightly, and I hate the word judging, but you know, uh critiquing, yeah, critiquing other women that were my age that shows a different lifestyle of being a stay-at-home mom. And I would think, we've come this far, you know, like ultra-feminism, we've come this far. Why would you do that? Uh, you don't have to do that. And I've now even pulled the onion back on that and realized that's my own hang-up of not wanting that for myself, but that doesn't mean that it's not a good thing. And perhaps I'm putting too much pressure on myself for this being the career woman. And maybe I'm actually somewhere in the middle between the two. And that's what I'm really learning about myself is I can want to do good work and bring in some money and not feel like uh my husband completely takes care of me. I can still be a pretty independent woman, but also value a home life and having that balance.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

So you're beginning to, as you're sorting through these definitions that we carry, right? That we have to be a particular way or be the career woman or be this, and it sounds like you're sifting through that. And I want to go back to the what you said a moment ago about being confident but unconfident, like that tension between the two. And what does it feel like to be inside of that tension?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Tension is a really good way to put it because it kind of feels like being a rubber band. It's like the more I trust in myself and I let myself truly be the type of leader that I know I can be, and be a voice in the room and have a seat at the table, the more I can expand that rubber band. But it just takes one person who nine times out of ten, not always, but nine times out of ten, is someone older than me and perhaps a male, to put me in my place or not accept my feedback or just completely gaslight me for that rubber band to suddenly snap back. And that's kind of what it feels like.

unknown 18:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

And when that rubber band snaps back, what is that like for you inside?

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Inside, the voices are saying, you know, my inner voice is telling me, oh, you were probably overconfident. Like you, you must have been completely off on this one. And and it starts to slowly but slowly grind away at that confidence because the more I question myself, the more I continue to question myself over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah, those moments where that doubt comes in and it's like, hey, just spinning it over and over and over again. In my experience, it kind of takes on a life of its own, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

It definitely does. And I also find myself as a measure of protection. Um sometimes when I feel like I've been asked for, you know, my thoughts on something, and I'm at a table with people who are equal or higher to my position level, right? I get a little guarded and I will always do a little like preface of, okay, here's what I think. I'm not I'm not saying this is right, or you know, it's a lot of a lot of preamble to so that I'm already ready for the rejection, right? So uh I'm gonna throw this your way. If you don't like it, it's totally fine, just throw it right back. I don't know if this is actually a good idea, but here it is. Instead of just owning that, hey, you're asking me what I think, here's what I think.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

And where would you say you are in this moment in relationship to that tension that you described?

SPEAKER_01 20:02

I feel like currently I'm at a space from unpacking all of this that I'm seeing that things are just not that black and white. And it's letting me let that go. And just really trusting my gut, and instead of I'm wrong, or this person didn't see it my way, so I'm completely off base. Instead, it's just okay, it wasn't for them, or you know, like it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with me is what I'm starting to accept.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

And as you're starting to accept that and trusting your gut, like how do you really know this is true for me?

SPEAKER_01 20:56

It's like um I feel like everyone can relate to the feeling of for some people it's butterflies, for some people it's their shoulders tense up. Like there's there's that feeling that you kind of get in in your your chest or your actual gut of a sensation of bracing or feeling uncomfortable, right? Um when you don't feel that anymore, when you can step into a room and it doesn't necessarily mean that you're so narcissist that you know you're right, but it's you're comfortable enough in your thoughts, and you're comfortable enough in yourself that no matter what happens, what the outcome is, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

You feel light. Yeah, light. What are some other words you don't use to describe that?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

It feels like a sense of freedom. If I'm being completely honest, it uh with the tension is gone. Um, and I feel very in touch and true to myself, and unlike I'm having to put on a mask or pretend or um you know really code switch or anything.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

The contrast between having the mask on and that tension and that just bracing. I'm curious, as you've been walking through this transition, what are you noticing about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 22:42

It's interesting to hear other people start to notice what you kind of are noticing in yourself because although I'm working really hard on not, you know, caring too much about how I'm perceived, at the same time, it does it is refreshing to go into a space and my network who I get to see once or twice a year. And it's the first time they've seen me post a layoff, and their expectation is that I'm probably gonna be pretty down in the dumps, or you know, all this and that, and they see me, and it's like, you look so great, you just you look so happy, and that's the thing, is not I never truly realized that I was not hiding some of the stressors that were behind the curtain as well as maybe I had thought. Um, and maybe I was hiding it, and it now people are seeing the true side of it brighter.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

So looking back at that time when you were maybe hiding those stressors or carrying that, what is it like to see that now?

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Now I wish that everyone could feel this way. I don't feel perfect every day, I don't feel perfect ever, but I definitely progress, not perfection. But I do believe that I now watch my friends, people I care about, people I hold in such high regard, who I believe are really doing great work, but I see I see kind of the rub on them of like some of their sparkle is being dimmed because of the same things that I've been dealing with. It's not exactly the same, it's it's not the same per se, but the societal pressures, all of those things that we somehow adopt and put on ourselves because I just know too many people who want to continue to maybe climb up that ladder, or if I just do two more hours in my workday today, you've already done 10. I don't know what that two more is gonna do. Um, but I see a lot of that, you know, and it's like we're we're all grasping for this thing that I don't actually think is attainable. And so what I wish is that more people and culture as a whole and society as a whole would start kind of letting a lot of that go. And it's hard, it's gonna take a lot of, you know, this is this is not just for a small ask, this is a bigger piece on what our capitalist country and how it operates. But I think if we can just do baby steps.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

And what would you say made it possible for you to begin to ask these questions, to begin to look at things a little differently?

SPEAKER_01 26:16

I started reflecting on my career trajectory. I started reflecting on, okay, remember when you went from this place to this place, you got a big pay raise out of it, and you got this different title, and you were hoping to be seen in a certain way. And then you were there for just a handful of months, and you already started feeling the pull towards, well, this is not enough because I'm still not being respected the way I want to be respected, or the work has doubled, so maybe the pay is not actually, you know, equal to that. And it just seems like here I am following this dangling carrot that is just never actually gonna be eaten, um, and taking a step back and saying, okay, so maybe we aren't gonna end up being a family that has foreign fancy cars, and maybe we aren't a family that's gonna be able to travel abroad every single vacation we possibly get. And maybe we won't be able to have 15 wine clubs and blog all these things, right? Can I live without those things? Yes. Can I live without those things and be happy? Yes, because I'm currently doing that. So how important is it to try to keep climbing up this ladder to nowhere?

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Where is it leading, right? I'm climbing, but what's up? And that perspective of seeing I'm on this ladder, but I just it's a ladder to nowhere. How has that realization impacted you?

SPEAKER_01 28:14

What I've realized is that I think we all have too much. We have we just the way things are marketed to us, the way the internet is, we have so much, and we don't need all of those things. So I have really leaned into simplifying my life as much as possible. I'm not gonna go live on a farm and churn my own butter, but I'm also learning to take stock on what serves me and what doesn't serve me? Does being on all these social media websites and posting about my life serve me? No, not really. Does gobbling up the news every day serve me? It doesn't serve me. Does going for a walk with my dog kind of aimlessly, does that serve me? Yeah, it does. It gives me time to just be present and reflect and see how far we can go. So just finding enjoyment in the little things and being grateful and practicing that gratitude.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

And as you've walked through this, what are some of those things that you are putting down or leaving behind in this transition?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

I've definitely stopped using tech the way I was using tech before. For example, I'm trying to go back to the golden age of times when someone had to write you a letter and then it would take days to correspond. I'm delaying how quickly I correspond with people because my time is valuable and so is yours. But just because I get a text message, that doesn't mean I need to stop doing what I'm doing in that moment and respond immediately to it. I don't need to stop cooking, I certainly do not need to stop driving safely, I don't need to stop reading my book. All these things can wait, and I feel like getting away from instant gratification allows you to practice more gratitude and to kind of reclaim your own space and time. And so I've just really been trying to be mindful in how I'm using technology and how accessible I'm gonna allow myself to be.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

And as you've put down the tech, what are you noticing when you're reclaiming that space?

SPEAKER_01 31:19

All of those anxieties that I think we experience, they calm down a lot. The worries, they can start to dissipate because the quiet time that you sit in and get to allow yourself to have is truly it's very peaceful and it allows for reflection and deep critical thinking that I feel like we have started to lose and to really just be human because I feel like we're also losing that as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

And that being human is just that the quality of our attention. And I I'm in the presence of someone. Am I with them? Or am I my thoughts someplace else? Am I planning what I'm doing later today or looking back? And those are really rare and precious moments.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

We've been thrusted into a time of extreme multitasking because of technology. And before we started talking, we both eliminated the extra tabs and the extra screen so that we could connect deeply and only be focused on each other. Who hasn't been on a Zoom meeting where you can see the other person's eyes drifting because they're obviously working at the same time. So they're not truly present. And in which case, what is actually more important, having the meeting or doing the work? We're pulled like that. It's the same thing with going out to dinner and seeing a table of six, and four of them are on their cell phones doing whatever while they're all there to have a meal together. This is just what society has become, and it's gonna take a lot of people choosing to put those things away and be mindful and be present. And unfortunately, that's just not what our work wants from us. And so it just bleeds into all these other aspects of our lives.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

As you look ahead as you're moving through this transition, what are some things that you want to make sure that you carry with you?

SPEAKER_01 33:48

I want to make sure that people are getting the version of me that is most authentic to who I am. Um, because I am most comfortable and confident and really bringing the best of myself when I feel like I get to be me. Um, and that's why I'm deciding to try and start my own small business as a consultant. I have one client and maybe I'll get a couple more. I'm not looking to grow this into something where I suddenly start having employees or anything like that, but I want to work and connect with people who want to work and connect with me on that authentic level. I want them to know that what they see is what they get. I am very professional and I'm good at what I do, but I'm also got a sense of humor and I like to make jokes and I like to have brevity and I like to smile and have a positive working experience, and I bring that even during some tough times, and that doesn't mean I'm not a serious person. And so I want to work with people who accept me for who I am because if they do, we're gonna make magic together.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Yeah. And how will you know that you're being true to this vision that you have for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 35:32

It gets back to that feeling we were talking about of that in your chest, in your shoulders, butterflies, in your stomach. If I'm starting to feel even the teensy bit of goosebumps, you know, coming in, uh, of like, oh, this is making me somewhat uncomfortable for some reason because it must be conflicting with my ethics or whatever it is. I need to have an open conversation with the people I'm working with and see is there a way to continue to move together, or can I help you find the right person for you? Because I'm probably not.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

I can look at periods of my life where my body was a transport system for my head, not being tuned in. That certainly has been true for me. It's like those moments when I can pay attention to that. It's usually a signal, and it's usually a signal before my brain has figured that out. So what would you say have been the most valuable lessons or things that you've learned about yourself through this moment?

SPEAKER_01 36:56

I would say the most valuable thing I have in my life are the people in my life. And that's my immediate family, but also my closest friends, even former colleagues that I've connected with. And through all of this, I learned that the weight is a lot lighter when you finally share the load. So, because of that shame that I was feeling and the fact that it was about the holiday season, it took me a little while to more broadly broadcast what I was going through and um that I was looking for opportunities. And the second I opened myself up and was honest and just wrote about it the way I normally speak, I wanted to convey it truthfully and authentically from myself. I just, my network reached out, everyone reached out with not just well wishes, but oh, I know a person that I can connect you with. I've seen you speak at this, and I was so impressed. I want to work with you. Um, and if I had not allowed myself to be vulnerable, which I think vulnerability is a superpower that we never allow ourselves to tap into enough because we see it as a weakness. Vulnerable equals weakness, but truly vulnerability is a superpower because that is the best way to gain trust with people because it's you being you, um, and people will buy into that. Yeah, and so being vulnerable really opened up so many possibilities for me, but it also reaffirmed that being myself is the best way to be.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

So, like we think if we share this part that we have shame about, it'll be over. And as you've told your story, as you've shared openly and been vulnerable, what are you taking from that uh experience?

SPEAKER_01 39:27

I'm taking the humanity of it all and recognizing what truly and deeply uh is important to me is connection and having that human experience that we all have started to lack a little bit because of these screens. And so kind of get back to the basics and just be honest and open, and the world will give to you if you can do that.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Putting yourself back to December in this transition that caught you off guard. It was a surprise. And where you are today, what has that journey been like?

SPEAKER_01 40:29

It's been quite the experience. Um, you know, one of the things that I like to share with folks because I want to name the thing what it is, which is being let go from a job, having a layoff is a loss. And any loss, it doesn't have to be a person, it doesn't have to be something that was living and breathing. It can be a relationship, it can be a home. Any kind of loss, um, you're gonna have grief. And so I've been on this grief journey. And at the start of it, most of the lows were low. And kind of really leaning into it though, and letting myself feel that way because it's was it's equally important to let yourself mourn what you used to have. Um, it's the only way you can close that chapter, especially when you didn't get the closure that you would have gotten should you have decided to leave that job on your own accord. But now I've gotten past the low lows. I've had this middle area where it was high, low, high, low, high low. Even back and forth on the seesaw. And now um I'm much more on the highs. Uh, I do still get lows. I do still, you know, I may hear from a former colleague that I'm still friends with, and sometimes I'm happy to hear from them, and other times I am happy with also the feeling of sadness because, like, oh, like I miss getting to to work with you and laugh with you, and we don't get to do that as much anymore. Um, so yeah, I'm still on it. I'm still grieving. And that's why it's a journey, because it's just kind of ever going. And it's not about where you end up, it really is the road along the way and the experiences along the way.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

It's like we're not arriving anywhere, right? We're always in this process. And I can imagine, like, when things come to an end, there is grief, there is mourning, there's sadness. What did I lose? And there are things to be gained and all of that, but it sounds like you're sitting with those different emotions that come up.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

And it's important to me to take ownership of them and to own these emotions and not hide from them.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

And when you're owning those emotions, like what is that? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 43:21

For me, it's no longer allowing myself to feel that shame that I felt earlier on. Instead, I'm gonna own this. Yep, this thing happened to me, and I'm still standing and I'm still growing, and uh I'm not suddenly a less than person. I have nothing to be ashamed of.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

And how has that experience shaped how you see yourself?

SPEAKER_01 43:52

I feel proud of myself, and that's a hard statement for me to say because. I get a little self-conscious about um, you know, seeming conceited or or you know, anything like that. But I am. I'm very proud of myself because I think that I have oftentimes leaned on other people or other things to make me feel empowered. And this might have been the first time in my life that I've truly empowered myself.

unknown 44:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Yeah. And what does that feel like?

SPEAKER_02 44:35

It feels it it feels great. It it feels true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Wow. As you were sharing that, I could just see that in your face and have your eyes lit up. Yeah. Yeah. Vanessa, thank you so much for sharing your journey with us. And I just am so struck by the path you've been on.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

So, Vanessa, where can folks find you if they want to reach out and get in touch?

SPEAKER_01 45:22

I can be found on LinkedIn. And I also have a Substack. So if this is resonating with you, I write every week or every other week just about what I've been experiencing, things I've noticed. I welcome anyone to read my Substack. It's titled Notes from Vanessa. And those are the best ways to get in contact with me.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

So I'll include links in the show notes for your LinkedIn profile as well as your Substack newsletter. And I can attest I have been a reader of your newsletter, and your writing about that messy middle really spoke to me. Thank you for being here today with us in this space. If something here resonated, I'd love to hear from you. You can find a link to reach me in the show notes. And I'll see you on the next stretch of the journey.