The Day Jac Hawkins Quit Being A Coroner

Why would anyone walk away from a role defined by power, prestige, and purpose?

*Please take care while listening—this episode includes references to suicide. If this brings anything up for you, support is available via Lifeline on 13 11 14.

Jac Hawkins is one half of the podcast duo and today she tells her own story of that day.

Jac had what most people would call an important job. As Victoria’s Deputy State Coroner, she spent her days leading inquests, facing the media, and sitting in the aftermath of unimaginable loss. It was high pressure, high profile, and from the outside, deeply purposeful work.

But somewhere along the way, something inside her started to unravel.

She was holding everyone else’s worst days and the grief of so many families while quietly losing herself in the process.

Until one day the noise got too loud to ignore. Her soul was screaming.

At her lowest point, Jac found herself contemplating taking her own life.

So she walked away. From the job, the identity, the version of success she’d worked so hard to build.

What came next wasn’t some glossy reinvention. It was slower and messier than that. There was space for the first time in years, but also a lot to confront. The patterns she’d lived by, the need to please, the constant pushing and striving and the familiar voice that told her she had to keep proving herself.

Like so many women, she found herself up against imposter syndrome all over again only this time, there was no title to hide behind.

But in that space, something shifted.

Jac began to rebuild her life in a completely different way. One that didn’t rely on pressure or perfection or ego. One that made room for both strength and softness.

Now, she’s on a mission to challenge the way women have been taught to lead, to show that we don’t have to harden ourselves to be taken seriously, and that there’s power in doing things differently.

This is a story about walking away from everything you thought defined you and figuring out who you are when it’s all stripped back.

Link to Jac's "before and after" photo referenced in the episode.

For more information about Jac, head to her website or follow her on Instagram @litwithincoaching. 

⚠️ Our episodes contain conversations about difficult life experiences. Some episodes include coarse language and themes such as childhood trauma, sexual assault, infant loss and references to suicide. Please take care while listening and prioritise your wellbeing. 

If this episode brings up anything for you, support is available:

• Lifeline – 13 11 14 
• Suicide Call Back Service – 1300 659 467 
• Beyond Blue – 1300 22 46 36 
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Production assistance from John Hresc at Sydney Sound Brewery 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Life can change in a day.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

A betrayal, a diagnosis, a devastation, a breakdown. This is That Day, the podcast where women tell real stories of the moment life changed, the chaos that followed, and the strength they found along the way. No subject is off limits. I'm Jack, a former coronator and impairment coach. And I'm Kylie, once an HR manager, now a published author. Together, we help women tell the stories that matter. By the end of each episode, you'll feel it, you'll learn from it, and carry it with you. Welcome to that day.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

This podcast contains conversations about difficult life experiences. Some episodes may include coarse language and themes such as illness, suicide, infertility, or childhood trauma. Please take care while listening and prioritize your well-being. Help lines are listed in the show notes. We're kicking off this podcast with a remarkable story, and it comes from my amazing co-host, Jackie Hawkins. When Jackie and I set out to create this series, we knew that if we were going to ask other women to share their vulnerable stories, we had to be brave enough to go first ourselves. Jackie, thank you for having the courage to open up. So Jackie walked away from the job of Victoria's deputy state coroner. It was a role defined by pressure, prestige, and public tragedy. She'd spent years leading inquests, facing the media, and carrying the state's darkest moments. From the outside, it looked like purpose, but inside her soul was screaming. So she left. Like so many women, she wrestled with imposter syndrome and had to shed old patterns of people pleasing. Jackie realized she wanted to disrupt the patriarchy.

unknown 1:53

Woo!

SPEAKER_02 1:54

And show not only herself but other women that we can lead with power and softness. Here's her story. So welcome, Jackie, to our podcast. I'm excited to talk to you today. How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_04 2:09

Yeah, I'm excited, but a little nervous.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

So let's jump straight to it. I want you to set the scene and tell us how life was before the edge. Just work, family, um, health, just general what was going on for you.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Well, I was a working mum. I've got two kids and married to a husband who's in the law as well. And I was just working really hard and it was just busy.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

So both your husband and you were working full-time as lawyers. Yep. And you had little kids. I was a coroner, yeah. You were a coroner at the time. Okay. And how old were your kids when you were a coroner?

SPEAKER_04 2:49

I think when I Sam was in prep. He just um it was 2014 and he was either in prep or grade one, and uh Georgia was two years older.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

So that's already a busy time. Yes, yep. And both parents are working in full-on jobs. And so what is the job of a coroner? Can you explain that to us? Because I think we we think it's like in the movies where they go and do autopsies. Yeah, no, it's not that, is it?

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Unexplained, unexpected deaths. So deaths related to car crashes, suicides, murders, hospital deaths, you name it. Any kind of situation where where the answer isn't clear, whether where a doctor can't write a death certificate for a natural causes kind of event, like a heart attack or a stroke, or someone who dies from cancer or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

It seems like that would be a lot of deaths that fall in the category that need to go to the coroner. Yeah, there's about 7,000 every year.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

Just in the state of Victoria. Yeah. Divided by 13 coroners.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

Wow. Yeah. Okay. That's a heavy workload. And when I started back in 2014, when I was appointed a coroner, um, there was only 10 of us. Okay. So yeah, we had about 500 to 600 cases each a year.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

And I'm guessing it's work that you take home either physically or but definitely mentally.

SPEAKER_04 4:05

Definitely both of those things. And you're on call every few weeks for a night, which means the phone's always on and you're available if anything happens in the middle of the night. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

So what would being on call, what would you get called out to as a coroner? Can you give me an example?

SPEAKER_04 4:20

Police shootings where, say, police pursuit, so where the police had caused the death of someone in the pursuit of their work, or if there were multi-fatalities, if there was like the bushfires or a multi-car accident where a number of people might be killed in one accident, for example.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

So why why would the coroner go to that rather than just receiving the report later and making a finding?

SPEAKER_04 4:45

Basically to show the community that there is an independent investigation, especially when there is police involvement. Police investigating, police never looks great. So it was always important to show that the coroner was there with oversight of the investigation.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

And so when you first started this job, I'm imagining it was exciting, even though the topic matter's quite traumatic. But this is what you'd been working towards for years, is that right?

SPEAKER_04 5:10

Yeah, it was my dream job. Absolutely. So excited. I had a a picture of the state coroner in my office at a law firm where I was a partner. Um not weird at all. Not stalking. And no, what's it called? Manifesting. Yeah. Right. Correct. Okay. You call it what you want. It actually works, yeah. Um, and I had a picture of the state coroner, the then state coroner, who was Judge Jennifer Cote, who then became my mentor years later. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

So it was everything you dreamed of. How long were you in the job where you realized, oh, maybe this is more than what I thought it was?

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Or so I had been working at the court for two years as a senior legal counsel. So as a lawyer, I left um my law firm to do that. Uh so I'd already had a bit of a taste of what the job was like. And then when I was appointed, it was about one month into the job. As a coroner. Yeah. Appointed as a corner. Appointed as a coroner. Yep. It was one month into the job. It was my first night on call. And um it was about 9.30, getting ready to go to bed. The kids are in bed, and I thought, oh, who knows what's going to happen. And as I left work that afternoon, the coroner said, No, nothing ever happens. You might get a phone call for an organ donation or something like that, because we'd often get those in the middle of the night. That's got to go through the court. Yeah. So if someone is about to die and uh they want to donate their organs and it's a um reportable death, then it would come to us and we'd get a phone call. And that's obviously very time-sensitive. Very time-sensitive. Yeah. And difficult decisions to make in the middle of the night, but always important to promote, you know, saving other people's lives. Anyway, it was my first night on call and it was February 2014. I thought, yeah, I'm going to go to bed now. And then the phone rang. It was about 9:30. It was the office, which was the Coronial Admissions and Inquiries office. And they said there's been a police shooting. There's a man who's expected to die from the shots of the police. So then automatically it's uh, oh, you have to attend this scene. Gosh. And uh he had killed his son at the cricket nets, and it was the Luke Baddie case, and I had to go to that scene. Wow. Tell me what's happening in your body when you get that phone call. Adrenaline was surging. I was shaking. I then thought, right, got to get my car, gotta work out where I'm going. Um, it was Tyab, so it was a good hour a bit away from me. They said, don't rush because the forensics do all their work first. You won't be able to get into the scene. That's why you don't have to go straight away. And once they've done their work, then you can go. So I then got in the car and drove out to Tyab and saw.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

So just to brief the listeners who may not be aware, Luke Batty was an 11-year-old boy who was at cricket training, is that correct? And with his mum. Yeah. And his parents were separated. Yep. And his dad turned up to training. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

And can And he I think Luke just said to his mum, Can I just have a few hits in the nets with dad before we go home? And she said, Yep, go ahead. And then he um murdered uh Luke.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

With the cricket bat. Yep. And yeah, that is horrific. I mean, I I cannot wrap my head around that. I yeah. I mean that's tremendous. It was a very well-known case, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_04 8:23

Because it's it started a Royal Commission. There was a coronial um investigation and then it led to a Royal Commission into Family Violence. And it has been the instigator of changing a lot of things in this state and around the country as well. In family violence. Yes. And Rosie Buddy is is well known in Australia and internationally for her work around family violence.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

I can't even imagine being a parent and seeing that happen. It was such a public place, you would think it would be a safe place to be. Yep. So I imagine the scene was very chaotic. Yes. And then your role at the scene is to what exactly?

SPEAKER_04 9:01

Just oversight and have a look around the scene, what happened, have some um first responders of police explain what happens. You meet with senior officials, sometimes the media are there, and um you just see what happened firsthand, and it actually helps when you're later investigating and and running an inquest to know where everything was situated. And so you are an investigator, really. Basically, a foreigner is an investigator, but also like a judicial officer.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

So you go to this incredibly traumatic scene one month into the job while you're on call, and what happens when you get home from that scene?

SPEAKER_04 9:38

Yeah, I was absolutely traumatized. When I was at the scene, I was like, Yep, miss professional, don't show any emotion, even though what I was confronted with was quite disturbing and like I'll never forget it basically. So I held myself together and you know, uh, it was interesting, like people going, hey Bob, like every it's a workplace for some people. But for me, I was just, I think my eyes were I just I was taking in the scene. I was talking to the forensic pathologist who was a female who was there as well, and we were talking about what may have happened. I was just trying not to feel I was telling myself, stop, don't feel anything, don't feel anything, don't show any emotion. But then when I got home, I absolutely just um got into bed and I just cried and I was in the fetal position for hours and for days after it really traumatized me that case.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

I understand in traumatic scenes that you have to just get on with it, but geez, it's sad to think that you've got to lock your emotions down, isn't it? But I I guess you you're trying to use a different part of your brain. Yeah. But the compassion for that situation must have been huge amongst all those first responders. Anyone at the scene must have been greatly affected by it.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

Oh, definitely. And those kind of scenes, like I'm not the person, you know, doing the resuscitation or trying to save someone's life. I'm there afterwards starting the investigation for the coronial process. But everyone there, the police, uh, the ambulance, fireman, like everyone who was there was impacted by that. Oh, of course. And at last it starts and if you're doing that every day for your job, the cumulative trauma is quite a lot substantial.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

So you went home, you basically curled up in a ball and cried, but then you've got to go back to work on Monday and what? Start the investigation and the paperwork? Did you work on that case from there?

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Uh well, it wasn't. It was a weekday, I think. I think it was a Wednesday or something. And yeah, I went to work the next day and I sort of just said to the state coroner at the time that I didn't think I could do the job and and that it was by this stage we'd seen Rosie Buddy at the front of her house doing a a media call saying the profound things that she said about how it can happen to anyone. We knew it was going to be a lot bigger than that and actually needed to be the state coroner to do the investigation.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Okay. I mean, I can't even imagine wrapping my head around where you start. Like just fronting up to work the next day. Like, yeah, that's incredible. Such a tough job. And the coroner's office supported through trauma and they have systems in place to help you with these type of things?

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Yes, it's it was vol it is voluntary. So you can see a trauma counsellor if you need to. And I definitely did after that because I'm great. I had a few sleepless nights and um I was just very traumatized and crying all the weekend. Because I had young kids and I just for me, I couldn't understand or couldn't fathom why a father or how a father could hurt their child their own child like that. I just could not understand how someone could do that. And so talking about it with a um professional like a trauma counsellor was helpful and actually getting the words out, even though um it's confronting at the time, like tell me everything you saw. Right. And that is, you know, I just didn't want to. But now in hindsight, you realise how important that is to actually get the words out, and so they don't live within you anymore.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

And then obviously that therapist carries it as well. Yeah. I mean they have professional training and yeah, yeah. It's it's cumulative, like you say, but it's it affects so many people, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_04 13:21

Yeah. And that was just one case of six, seven and a half, seven thousand that year.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

My gosh, one case and one month in. Yeah. So that didn't deter you from the job. No. No. Were there some other big cases that you worked on that sort of added to this effect, domino effect?

SPEAKER_04 13:40

Yeah, there were there were lots of things. And um there's there was just a confluence of factors and circumstances that led to my edge, including later there was a bit of a toxic workplace where lots of disharmony and you know, there's some issues going on in the workplace and lots of people going off on sick leave. Wow. That is not helpful. It doesn't help when you're actually already doing traumatic work, when the workplace becomes a bit toxic. And then a colleague suicided after that. Oh my gosh. That was a few years later after this incident. But as a direct result of the toxic workplace. Or that is Yeah, and that was very traumatic as well. And so all these things just build up and you just function and keep keep turning up and but you don't realise that they're all chipping away at you. And you're still doing all of your cases. Yes. And also just And running a household. Running a household. With young children. With young children. We had to have nannies and stuff taking them to and from school and you know, they they have sick days and you can't be there. And yeah, it is a big trade-off working full-time when you are doing the job of your dreams.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

But you also have the responsibilities and the mental load of having a family.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

So how did you manage that? How did you deal with the inevitable mum guilt of leaving children at home to go to a a very hefty job? This is not a job where you can leave it at night. Like, did you feel present for your children when you were around them?

SPEAKER_04 15:16

No. Um and I probably didn't handle it very well in hindsight, I think about it. I mean, you kind of wonder how can you, really? Yeah. You you can't you try and leave it. My thing was driving home and trying to listen to music or, you know, leave the day. Yeah, to create a boundary. Yeah. But you know, you you are confronted with the most difficult things at work, and then you walk in and go, Mummy, mommy, all these kids like kids wanting you and and you just have to go, okay, I'll just go back to the house. Yeah, be here for them right now. Yeah, read a story, have bedtime, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

And were you getting home quite late from this job or? Oh, yeah, after six, usually. And what about your husband? He was the same. Yeah. Right. So they were long days and kids with nannies and just feeling the full the frazzle. The full yeah, that's a good word for it. Frazzles. Better than a juggle, actually.

SPEAKER_04 16:09

I like it. Frazzles probably more in line with me. Because I, you know, from the outside, people probably think, oh, they they look like they've got it all together. They've, you know, they've got a nice house, they've got lovely kids, great jobs, but they don't see the tension and drama and who's doing what and the the the frazzle.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

And the trade-offs.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

The trade-offs, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Nothing nothing doesn't come with a cost, right? Yeah. And so there was another high profile case you worked on, which was the Burke Street case. Can you tell us a little bit about that one?

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Yes. Um, that was in 2017. Uh, the offender drove up uh Burke Street Mall and uh killed six people. And that had to go through the criminal process first. Right. So I remember it, my God. Yeah. So it's one of those days. Clearly don't January. Everyone's like, it was school holidays, who's in the city? Actually, my husband, because it initially it was meant to maybe have been a terrorist attack, my husband's office shut down their whole office. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

It's like, where's Pat? Where's Pat? Because he's in central. So just for people who don't live in Melbourne, Burke Street Mall is a closed-off road that only allows pedestrians or trams, and it's where a lot of our major shops are. Yeah. So you can't drive cars down there. So no one is expecting that a car is going to come down Burke Street Mall.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

Yeah, and then he went through that and um the offender killed six people. That went through a whole criminal process, a criminal trial, and then it came to the court after that. And then my job was to look and see if there was anything prevention related to what happened and how the police investigated.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Gosh. Tell me what had to let go in that time. You're trying to do your best in a job that you can't do half-heartedly, and then you come home and you're trying your damn best to be the parent you want to be. What what did life look like?

SPEAKER_04 18:08

It was just exhausting. And then you sort of add perimenopause and a bit of anxiety, uh, lack of sleep. I think I didn't sleep for about 10 years. Wow, yeah. And that'll do it. Life just sort of just get frayed around the edges, I think.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

I think as mothers too, we never feel like we're doing a good enough job anyway. I mean, I was home and working around my kids, thinking that would be best for them, and still felt like I was doing a shit job. So it doesn't matter. It does not matter who you are and what you're doing. We all think we're doing a shit job. Yeah, we never think we're enough, do we? No. And if you think you're doing a good job, I mean, I'd I'd like to say good on you, but I bet you underneath there's something that feels like it's it's missing.

SPEAKER_04 18:57

Well, that's where the imposter syndrome and where you think, you know, outwardly people think, oh yeah, she's got it all together. But inwardly you're going, I didn't do this well enough, and I had to run away. I had to leave work to go to a school event, or you never feel messy. Yep, you never got takeaway again. Yep. You never feel like you've got it under control. Yeah. And it I never felt feel like that. Do you think Pat felt like that, your husband? No, I I don't think I think this is where the patriarchy has a lot to answer for, Jack. Jack. It really does. I mean, we could spin off. We could do a whole lot. We could go and do a patriarchy podcast, but it's it's set up to really support men. Yeah. And he never got the guilts doing the drop-off or the pickup and the tears. Like I remember when I first put them into Crache and I went back to s to work at when they were six months old. Yeah. And I would just get in the car and ball my eyes out. Yeah. Because we've all done it. Feeling guilty that you're dropping off your baby. And you know, I don't know. If I had my time again, would I do it the same? Probably not. I don't know. I don't know. Because it was my dream job. So I had gone to uni and worked really hard to do my dream job. You had the coroner's photo on your wall. Yeah, and I manifested that job and I got it. Because if you manifest, you do things do happen. Yep. And yeah, it just um So when you Well, even if you get the job, you think everything's gonna be fine. Yeah, once I get the job, all this will be better.

SPEAKER_05 20:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

But it actually just no, because it just it's a bigger job. There's more responsibility. This time it's a job where the community and the public are looking at your every move. So you can't you have to behave your stuff. You can't do anything wrong. Can't have a bad day in that job. Can't have a bad day. Because if you do, it'll be on the front page of the paper. Yeah, wow. That's too much.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

I'm out. Uh okay, so you're working in this job that is supposedly your dream job. Yeah. It's your passion. Are you feeling full of passion? How many years were you a coroner? Um, I was a coroner for 10 years.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

And the passion still ignited? I absolutely, it was definitely I thought it was my purpose to investigate death and to come up with recommendations to prevent deaths and having an impact on the community. So I really, really took that job very seriously. I treated every different case the same as the other.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

And that's who we need in the job because as a family, if you lose someone and you you are looking for the answer, you want them to treat that as the most important case on their desk.

SPEAKER_04 21:33

Yeah. So when I was there, I was there. Right. And I tried to forget that I was a mum and my kids are at Crates or at school or whatever, and having their own lives. So yeah, I was totally present. And that is my superpower. Because I love the work that I was doing, I would immerse myself. Okay. And I'd have to sort of remind myself, oh, I better go home soon. Yeah. Because I've got this whole other life at home.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

But also that probably means Maybe you didn't have great boundaries because you impressed yourself. I had no idea. And you really wanted to get the answers. Yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

And I worked really hard. For example, with the Burke Street in quest finding that was during COVID. And I, in the end, was working 17, 18 hours a day. I would walk out of our bedroom into my office and just work all day, even though the kids were doing online schooling and my husband was in another room doing his work. I was just super focused on getting that finding done. And uh I mean lucky families and lucky job, but not lucky for you or your family. So then I guess at the end of all of that, when I had delivered that finding, which was for Burke Street? Yeah, which was November 2021, I was spent really just done.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Yes. You'd been in the job for seven years by then? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:55

Yeah. Okay. And I was absolutely burnt out. And I think COVID didn't help either. So after that case, I knew I needed to do some I needed a break. And so I asked my boss at the time, I think I'm gonna take, is it okay if I have long service leave? And I took three months over uh half pay over six months.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

And And this was just at the time you were thinking, I just need to step aside. Yeah, I need to. I need to catch a breath.

SPEAKER_04 23:18

I need to just the way I was working was not right. It wasn't sustained. It wasn't sustained. And I was exhausted. So no one really knows this, but the night before I delivered the Burke Straight Inquest, I didn't want one typo. This is where my perfectionism was at its just problematic, heightened levels. I I didn't want any typos. I wanted it to be absolutely perfect. I practiced and I rehearsed, delivering my finding because it was going to be broadcast publicly. But I just was spent and on the floor of my office, bawling my eyes out, going, Oh, God, this is shit. Someone's gonna find a typo. This no one's gonna appreciate this. What would happen if someone found a typo? They didn't.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Of course they didn't. But had they, what would have been the outcome that you would have lost your job?

unknown 24:07

No.

SPEAKER_04 24:07

No, but my state of mind at the time was irrational. This has to be perfect. And how many words or pages is this report?

SPEAKER_02 24:16

It's 200,000 words. So that's basically two PhDs. Yeah. So a novel is about 80 to 100,000 words, depending on the novel. Yeah. And you wrote two novels and were expecting there to be no typos. Any wonder you were bloody lying on the floor crying. Yeah. And was your husband coming in and saying, hey, you need to take a break. Yeah. Stop being a dick. Yeah. There might be a typo. It'll be okay. But you're publicly presenting this, right? This then becomes public record. Yeah. And your name is on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

It's my legacy. So I wanted to deliver it the best way I could. So Yeah, but I do remember the next day when I was delivering it, I was stumbling over my words, and it was not the way I'd rehearsed it.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

And um So when you say deliver it, you're saying to the media. In court.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

In court. In court. Formal hearing, delivering my finding, and it was being broadcast publicly. Right. I was trying to read the words because I was I had a summary. Um, but I also in my head, this little voice going, This is shit, no one's gonna like it, everyone's gonna criticize you, this is bullshit. That was going on in my head as I was trying to read it. And I could uh my face was going bright red, I could hear myself stumbling words and stuttering, and I just I just wanted to get the fuck out of there because I beam me up, Scotty, because I felt like it was just all coming to a head. Imposter to and I had no control over it. Oh, that's and then I got out of the court, like adjourned the court and just balled my eyes out because I just thought that's just taken a lot out of me. I mean that looked like burnout to me. That's burnout, but I was probably burnt out probably months, if not years before that.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:01

So then yeah, I asked my boss if I could have long service leave to to just get on top of all this and just get some perspective back into my life, which I absolutely did. Great. And I did a yoga teacher training course. I immersed because I this is what I do. I mean immersed myself into school.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

But maybe not. Like you're a lawyer and a coroner.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

Yeah, but I had been doing yoga for a number of years. That was the balance to try and find a sense of calm and peace. And so I did even throughout doing Burke Strait, I was meditating regularly just to try and keep myself present. So when I did get to work, I was fully doing the work of the coroner.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

I mean, it's incredible that you can I I have never been successful at meditating, but with what is going on in your head, I guess it's it's imperative that you need it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

Yeah. And probably when I was spiralling, I needed to do that more. Actually take a break and walk around the block, not work harder. Yes. And it's contrary to what we're taught. We're taught. Yeah. But what we need to do is stop and and take a breather and probably leave the desk or have a few days. Have a day off. Yeah. Or go to bed early.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Did you ever have a day off? No. And do you think this is also partly gendered that women feel like I've got to prove myself? Like it is it a male-dominated environment you're working in.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

Interesting. There's more uh female coroners than male, and that has been the case for the last few years. So yay to that. Yeah, that's great. But and a lot of other women coroners probably don't feel it like I did it. I don't know. I just I certainly wasn't dealing with it the best. And then having six months off and feeling what lightness in your body and your head or my head felt like I just thought, oh my god, this is so you did a yoga teacher training, of course. I can breathe, I can allow my kids parasympathetic nervous system to fucking calm down. I can um I just felt the best I'd ever felt in my life.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

And did you see your family life impacted? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

My relationship with my kids and um my husband improved, and I thought, ooh, okay, this was the trade-off. And so having a taste of that definitely then made me think, maybe I'm done with that other job. Right. Even though I thought it was my purpose, maybe it was my purpose for a time. Right. I like that thinking. Yeah. That's how I started to think.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

And then I got a phone call out of the blue. Ah. I was gonna say, did you think you reached the pinnacle? And when you were there, you thought, yeah, the view's okay, but actually it's not all I thought it was. But actually you weren't quite at the pinnacle yet, were you?

SPEAKER_04 28:48

Not quite, but it was enough for me at the time. And and I thought I was starting to think, yeah, I could actually live this life. I could leave. I could teach yoga. Yeah, just you know, be a nicer person, yeah, have a bit of a chilled life. And my boss would check in with R regularly during that time and he'd ring up and say, Oh, have you done Pilates and had a shardy yet?

SPEAKER_02 29:11

We'd just joke. And that's it. I wasn't doing like a cliche. It's really hard to drink wine in certain yoga poses. Yeah. I mean, not that I've tried, but I'm willing to give it away.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

We could try actually. Yeah, let's still do that.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

A bit of downward dog. You've got to find out. So he yeah, my boss calls me and I'm due back to work in two months' time. And and I always, whenever he rang, I said, you know, I'm not coming back. Like I'd joke and say, I think this is the life for me. They go, Yeah, yeah, sure. And I won't. But underlying that joke, did you really think I don't want to go back? Yeah. Okay. I did. And then he said, actually, I would like to promote you to the deputy state coroner. Oh. And I said, No, I don't.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

There's straight away you said, Yeah, I just went no. You didn't. I mean, that is a big kahuna, man.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

Yeah, I don't even think I want to come back. So why would I want to do that? Why would I want to do an even higher up, more stressful job? Yeah. But he, you know, stroked my ego and my ego loved it and said, Yeah, why wouldn't you? What did he tell you? You're good, you're the future of the court, you can you're amazing. Your yeah, your work is very beneficial to the community.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

You've driven yourself into the ground for us. Yeah, and keep driving. Yes. Keep driving that bus.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

But You were on the wrong train.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

I was on the wrong train.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

But I said, of course, my ego loved it. And I said, I thought about it. And I thought, yeah, I've worked my ass off for the last 25 years. Of course, I deserve this job. I'm gonna take this job. I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

And what how was your family about that? Knowing um, you know, seeing the difference in you as a well-rested, well-balanced person. I mean, obviously no one's gonna stop you if that's what you want to do, but were there discussions? Do you think this is best? I thought you were moving away from this area.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

I think probably my husband was he would never tell me what to do. He wouldn't want to. God knows. Um but he unless he wanted to lose a testicle. Exactly. Uh, but he was sort of just said, you know, make sure you think about this. I mean, I've thought about it, of course. Yeah. And it meant that I had to be made a magistrate to become the deputy state coroner. It's just a technical thing in the act. So, yep, I started, came back, was appointed a magistrate, appointed the deputy state coroner on my first day back, and bang, we're back into it.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

I mean, the it's a good title. Yeah, it's a great title. I I've never had a title like that. Not sure I'm willing to pack it up. Um, but it sounds bloody good to be the deputy state coroner of Victoria. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 31:42

But with that comes huge responsibility. And of course. So then I became the state coroner's like um to IC, and we need to run the court as well as run inquests and So you're still doing the same kind of casework? Same case work, but also meetings and committees and a lot more administrative parts of the job as well. Okay. So you're in this job for how long? I reckon I did it for about three months, and I went, I have made the worst mistake of my life.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Oh wow. Three months in.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

Yeah. Yeah, you knew.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

At the start of what you knew. Great. And the day you know, I can do this. I just need a little whole day with a little bit of yoga and Chardonnay. Yep. Everything's fine. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 32:23

And then I just have I done. And then I started to spiral. My anxiety just got out of control. I stopped sleeping. I stopped doing the routines that actually made me well, like meditating, yoga, journaling, all the stuff that I'd actually put into place when I was on the six-month leave. And all those routines are what make me a whole better person. And I had no time for doing it. Yeah. So then I started to lose my rituals and my the way to keep myself balanced. And then the spiral started. So what what does that mean? What does spiralling look like? Severe anxiety, like worrying about every decision I was making, worrying about my kids, just worrying about irrational things, like have I turned the oven off? Yep. And then having to be halfway to work and having to drive home to check that I'd turn the oven off. It was irrational all over the place. But I think that was perimenopause and um a lot of other things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Yeah. It was just all hitting at once. All hitting. So it was post-COVID? Well in general. Or was it in then? No, that was post-COVID, it was perimenopause, it was a brand new job.

SPEAKER_05 33:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

How did your family, like your kids, respond to you returning to work? Would that was the transition okay? Or were they like, no, mum, we want you to stay home and make us biscuits every day? I don't I'm not that mum. I'm not that mum either. I don't cook.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

Never been the no, I've never been the baking mum. But anyway. Um probably no, not conscious of it. They were older then, so they were in high school then. I just think I it was in I was internalizing it, but people at work were noticing because I was in my office, door closed, a lot more withdrawn. And I am not like I am an introvert, so I get my energy from quiet time, but then I can actually be really on when I'm on. And yes, when I'm at work, I talk to everyone and my open door policy, I was starting to withdraw from all of that.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

So the signs were that I was losing myself and I knew it. And it was bubbling away underneath, obviously. Yeah. And it wasn't just the cases you were dealing with, it was the the cumulative trauma, the workload, the hours, the lack of sleep, period loss.

SPEAKER_04 34:43

Everything. And at the same time, I then started to explore whether perhaps I might have been I might have had ADHD myself. Oh, okay. So I started to And well, how did that come about? Yeah, I just s a family member um was diagnosed, and then it became apparent that maybe I might have it as well. As soon as I started researching it, I started to think, oh my gosh, maybe this anxiety isn't perimenopause, although maybe it is, but my hormones were out of control, but then it just actually started to add up. And so then I got a diagnosis of that. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

And yeah, just in midlife you got a diagnosis of ADHD. At 51. Wow, on top of everything else that you're going through. And did you feel relief at that diagnosis?

SPEAKER_04 35:31

No, I felt really like wow, I could have done this for a lot longer and a lot more balanced and a lot more controlled if I had known that my superpower, my ability to work for hours and hours and hours. To hyperfocus? Yeah. Was a sign of that. But the trade-off, if I'd known that, yeah, I could have probably stayed in the job longer. I don't know. You can't go back, eh?

SPEAKER_02 35:59

No, but before all that, I was hitting the edge then. Can you pinpoint a moment that was your moment of enough where you said, fuck this, I can't I can't keep going like this, or was it a small bubbling underneath of many things?

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Well, it was a cumulative impact, but then there was just one night. I walked in the front door through the house like a zombie, out the back door, got in the car, didn't even speak to anyone. And then I um Hang on, you've come home from work on the train. Yeah. You walked in the door, grabbed your keys. I don't know how I got home. But I walked in the I remember walking in the front door through the house, not speaking to anyone, and just got in the car and started driving. And it was raining and it was dark, and I just had enough. I was dark. And I didn't know where I was driving.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

What were you thinking at the time? I just gotta get out of here.

SPEAKER_04 36:54

Yeah, I just wanted to leave my life. Like this, this I can't, I can't do this anymore. Like I was just discombobulated and I felt like a zombie. Pat was trying to call me and I just couldn't take his call. Oh god. I just poor Pat.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Yeah, and poor you.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

I mean, this is full on. Yeah. And I just drove around and thought, what am I doing? What am I doing? What am I doing? So then I pulled into a park. I didn't know where I was going or what I was doing. It's pissing with rain. I'm crying like the wind, the windscreen's got tears on it. I've got tears in my eyes. And then I just park and I am in a quiet park. There was no one around, thank God, because I was hysterical. And then I looked up and I saw a big tree and I thought, yeah, I could do that. I could actually I'm done. I could I'm just I couldn't.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

You couldn't see any other way out.

SPEAKER_04 37:48

I don't think I was in the going to do it, but I thought, geez, I can see how people do this. And then I screamed. Screamed like you'd see in a horror movie. Just scream. And I think if anyone had s heard that or seen it, they would have called the police. Wow. Fortunately, they didn't. But that was the moment that's when I went, something has to give here. Absolutely. Because I'd also rec like it wouldn't it was only 18 months before or 12 months before when I had experienced vitality and radiance and living in a really healthy, balanced way. And you knew you. And here I was 12 months later, just going, Where is that person? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Where is she gone? And you didn't feel like in that moment you could get her back. You just needed this heavy feeling to do.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

I don't know what I felt. I just want wanted it to end, to stop. And then so the scream just stopped me, and it's sort of like it was like a slap in the face, and I just went, Well, wake the fuck up. Wow. You can change your life. You are the only one that can change this right now. You have a choice to make right this minute. That is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

And so, um don't you think cars? I mean, I often think about cars being like a an individual capsule. So many things happen in cars. It's like we have permission. I have cried in cars so many times. Cars and showers also. Yes. I mean, I think people just think that they're they're protected. And maybe that's why you just needed somewhere to go to get it out of your body that wasn't. I mean, imagine if you did that in your lounge room at home in front of your kids and husbands. Well, it wouldn't have been good. It wouldn't have been great. So I'm glad that you were able to get it out.

SPEAKER_04 39:36

But I think it was just frustration. The scream was frustration. Like, this is not the life that you wanted. Yes. You thought it was. But look where you are. Well, yeah. Actually, this is where I say deep down, you actually know it's not what you wanted. Because 18 months beforehand, you're saying, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go back. Yeah. But my ego took over. So I actually did know. Right. And that's what made it worse. Yeah. Yeah. Because I actually knew the wisdom within me was saying, you already know this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

So this was your soul screaming. Yeah. You're not listening. Correct. So you screamed, you cried, nobody saw you. Thank God. It's pissing with rain. I mean, it feels like this could be the climax in a movie, to be honest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Except I went home and uh tried to then pull my life together. But um I was how how was your husband when you got home? He was very distressed and worried about me because I wasn't taking his calls and because I didn't know what was wrong with me. So if even taking his call, I don't I don't know what I would have said. So I just said I I'm at my I'm at my age. I can't I can't keep going like this. And he agreed. And so then the next day I rang my boss and said, I think I have to leave because this is destroying me and um I can't do it anymore. And it unless something changes, nothing will change. Yeah. So nothing I will continue down this path unless I just pull the handbrake on and say, we're done here.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Yep. Um And how how did he respond to that? Was he trying to convince you to just have an island holiday with a cocktail by the pool?

SPEAKER_04 41:12

Yep, just relax. Don't worry, just have a few days off, have a few weeks off. And we had a lot of discussions over a number of months about how we could make it work, but I I knew I needed to leave. No, that's not true. And I was just convinced. This is burnout. Yep. And and so we had an overseas trip book. So we went overseas and I just said to the family, does anyone mind if I leave? Because I can't do this anymore. And I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I trust that the universe will guide me if I just I have to let go. Yes. And I and I kept on saying to myself, no doors will open for me unless I close this one.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

And the decision was clear? Like, were you worried about closing that door, or you were like, I have to close this door? There's no other voice.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

So I knew I had to move on, but I also um yes, the ego is going, Bet you're a lawyer. You've worked so hard, you're the deputy state coroner, you've you deserve this.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Is that how your internal voice sounds as well? Like yeah, that's it was just an arm wrestle.

SPEAKER_04 42:09

It was an arm wrestle with my ego.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Yep. Is it just ego? Is that like if we can isolate the ego in our decisions? Do you think that gives clarity to people? Oh my god, people, yes.

SPEAKER_04 42:20

Our ego drives every decision we make unless you are awake and aware of what that is. Right. And there's so many people walking around this world who are asleep. Yes, and they're not aware of what is driving them.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

And what lights them up inside, or maybe something used to, and now the flame's gone out and they've forgotten, actually.

SPEAKER_04 42:42

Well, the system we just we just operate like robots. Yep. But because I'd already had this kind of glimmer when I had the six months off. It's like a mini enlightenment. It was. Yeah. And I went, I want that. I don't want this. Yes. And so I could have something to compare it to. Yeah. Had I not had the long service leave, I wonder if you would have ever left. But because I'd had it made it stark to me, the difference of my of who I was.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

And there is there's a photo that Jackie posted on LinkedIn and Instagram that if you have access to either of those things, you need to go and have a look. It's an incredible contrast. There's a photo of Jackie, was it 2020? Uh yeah. Yeah. 2021.

SPEAKER_04 43:27

Backstreet.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Uh when you were delivering the findings. And I mean, I feel like I can say it because I know you, but Jackie looks like she's dead on the inside. I was. Like she you look in her eyes in that photo, and there's there's no spark, there's nothing. And then next to it is a photo of you how many years later? Five. Yep. Five years later. She looks ten years younger, not that that should be relevant. Um, but she is like just alive. You are alive with joy and passion again. So Let's move to that. You've had your, I guess you could call it a breakdown or a breakthrough, depending how you want to look at it. Yep. You told your boss, I can't do this anymore. How much longer were you in the job before you were able to actually leave?

SPEAKER_04 44:13

It was about six months because or maybe four months. Because I didn't want to leave. I felt very responsible for taking that job. And I didn't want to leave him in the lurch. And I didn't I wanted to make sure that it was going to be a smooth transition. And interestingly, what helped was I saw Jacinda Ardern's retirement speech from Parliament. Yep. And I also saw Yep, I know amazing. And Lee Sales when she so two women at the top of their game. So Lee Sales was on the 730 report as the anchor for many, many years, and she's brilliant. I have so much respect for her. And Jacinda Ardern was the New Zealand Prime Minister. And that year they had both walked away from these incredible careers at the top of their game. And I thought, I want that. I want to walk away at the top of my game, not burnt out like looking dead inside. Yeah. A formation. And not being not being my best version of myself. So those two videos, I think I saw them on YouTube or I might have seen whatever. I saw them and they inspired me to go, yeah, that's what empowerment looks like. That's what taking control of your life looks like.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

And how important is it to see other women? I mean, it's kind of why we're doing the podcast. So you can see these things are possible. Because a lot of people would feel like it's not. I've worked all these years for this pinnacle role that I finally got. What kind of idiot walks away from that?

SPEAKER_04 45:42

Yeah, no one walks away from these jobs. Yeah. But you can, and you don't have to be imprisoned. And now that I am an empowerment coach and I have lots of clients, they all talk about the gilded cage. So it's the income, the title, the status, the ability to travel internationally, all this sort of stuff. But it's a gilded cage because you don't have freedom. And the one thing that I found that I needed the most was freedom. Yeah. And flexibility. And that was decisions. That became when I was looking at values and stuff when I was doing my coaching, freedom is my number one value. That's your core. I need autonomy. I need to be able to be, I need agency. Yeah. And I didn't have that. Right. And I a lot of people don't, but it was stronger. That was stronger for me than staying in the gilded.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

Yeah. Because you'd lost yourself. Yeah. In the other dream job, apparently. Yeah. So you left after four months, and how did you feel like walking out of that office for the last time? Did you feel relief or relief?

SPEAKER_04 46:44

And I've never thought about going back a day since I left. And that was two years ago.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

That's amazing. Yeah. And it's the best. And it shows that you've made the right decision, right? I mean, but it won't always be that clear-cut, will it? People will walk away from things and still doubt them.

SPEAKER_05 47:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

But it's so good. So what was your path forward? What was your plan? You were going to rest first up. So did you rest? Because I know you and I feel like rest is not maybe it's not a core value that you've put down on your empowerment. No, it's not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:16

So I did rest. I intentionally rested. I got back into my rituals of journaling, meditating, yoga every day, um, walking in nature, not hustling, not running around. So I gave myself, I think I left in October, I gave myself till sort of January, and then I thought I'm going to do a writing course. So I enrolled at the Australian Writers Centre and did a 12-month write your novel. About three months into that, I'm like, this is really um hard.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

I don't know what I'm doing. And I thought any of the things. I mean, this is a woman who's done a law degree and became a deputy state coroner. Um and I wrote a novel and I was never a state coroner. So You've written four.

SPEAKER_04 47:53

Well, I'm up to my fourth. Up to your fourth. And you make writing look easy. I just went, I can't fucking write. This is so hard. And then I sat there one day and thought, what can I do with the skills that I have without because I thought I'm never going to make any money as a novelist. Correct. Because no one's ever going to read this. Well, not that's really the reason, but but then I thought, what can I do with the skills that I have without going back into the law and doing six-minute billable units? And I thought, I've always Is that what they are? Six minutes. Yeah. Like a fucking accountant. And every minute counts. Yeah. And so I thought, I've actually always loved supporting and coaching junior people, junior staff who have worked with me for the last 25 years. And I've loved seeing their journey. And they'll come in and say, I don't know what to do with my life or career. And then I'll get them on track. And I've loved seeing them flourish. And people to this day still ring me and go, Oh my god, I got my law degree because of you. I did this, I did this. And I love that. So I thought, actually, I really love coaching people. So then I enrolled in a coaching course, as well as doing my own novel.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

It is a it is a very natural place for you. What did you have to let go of psychologically in order to do that?

SPEAKER_04 49:07

So much. But I think I had been letting go of it for the last five years anyway.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

I just needed the Can I name, can you name some things you had to let go of?

SPEAKER_04 49:20

Career, title, income, um, ego. So I think the other thing I've learnt through my coaching and my spiritual practices and reading all about enlightenment and awakening is that it often comes at the dark night of the soul moment, the moment for me that in the car um where you just you're on your knees and you just go, Why am I here? And is this the life that I wanted? So I call it the dark night of the soul because it has been called like that, called that, termed that by many smart ancient gurus, sages, whatever, over the years. And I felt that that was my moment. And cracked you open. And when you have that, it's actually a gift because it gives you a chance to come out the other side. Yes. Or those people that don't, it you know, it becomes dire consequences for those.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

And that could have been you. Could have been, but if you didn't leave, what what do you think would have happened?

SPEAKER_04 50:19

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

I don't know. But you're scared to think about it.

SPEAKER_04 50:22

Yeah, I don't even want to entertain it. Yeah. And I don't think I would have ever let myself do that anyway.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

No. Do you think your family, like your parents, both your parents are still alive, just celebrated their what? Uh their 60th, 61st and wedding anniversary, actually. Wow. Yeah. Did they say to like I'm a long time married. It is a long time married. It's too long. Ask me. Don't tell Pat. No. Did they have opinions about your career? Like were they encouraging you to leave because they could see on how unhealthy you were? Or were they nervous about you leaving and saying, what? You're becoming an empowerment coach? What even the fuck is that? I made it up. I'm sure they don't say what even is the fuck.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

No, they don't swear. Okay. Not really. But no, when I was deciding to leave the coroner's court, the one person I was worried about telling was my dad until I spoke to a psychologist and she said, You're 51 years old. Why are you worried about what your dad thinks? And I sort of went, Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

And is your dad a judgmental kind of guy? Well Or is he just wanting you to have a steady job?

SPEAKER_04 51:30

I think he was probably in the past. He's very chill now. Right. But I was thinking of the 12-year-old version of my dad when he was when I was 12. Yeah. Which was like, get good grades to do to work really hard, blah, blah, blah. But what then when I did go and tell him, I think he was the first person after I'd told my immediate family, he's like, I get it. And I was like, that's not the reaction I thought you'd actually have. Yeah. Because I thought he'd be able to do that. But people surprise you, Jack. They do. Yes. In a nice way.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Although it probably feels like you would have done it anyway, right? You don't need other people.

SPEAKER_04 52:09

No, I don't need permission. But when I realized I didn't need the permission of my dad as a 51-year-old to leave a job, that was pretty freeing. Too. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

That was just in my head. And it taps back into the core of needing freedom to make decisions. So what does your life look like now? Well, it's great.

SPEAKER_04 52:27

I got I got to meet you. And uh and so now I've got this really great life. I'm playing with my creativity. I still think about writing a book. I am an empowerment coach. I'm coaching women how to get unstuck and change their lives and transform themselves if they want that.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

And the fact that you've been through it, that just gives so much weight to this new role because they can see it's not just someone saying, You can do this. You can say, I have actually done it. I get how you're feeling, I know you're scared, or I know that you're at the end of your tether, or whatever it is. I think that gives a lot of um extra weight.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

And that's why it's really important to tell our stories as well. And because everyone's got a story, right? Every everyone has got a story.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 53:16

And you just have to ask them and you just have to listen. And if you give someone your fully present self, and they can express themselves and they feel safe, that they can be vulnerable and honest, then you can start to help transform them. And that's the power of what I'm doing at the moment is helping women connect with themselves again, which is why I call my company Lit Within. Because if you are lit within, you can actually see it.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

You can raise it. I mean, it was shining out of your eyeballs in that photo. People, you need to go and have a look. Yeah. That's amazing, Jack. So if you if there's a woman listening to you thinking, well, if she could do it, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_04 54:02

I think what you need to do is first and foremost, get quiet. Turn off all the noise. Go and walk in nature, or go to the beach if that's your thing, or just sit in your calm down and scream at a tree. Whatever. Yeah. Go and get silent and be with yourself. Truly be with yourself. As a form of almost meditation, I guess, but it doesn't, you don't have to label it that. Because we all have the answers within us, we just have to turn the fucking noise down or off, and you will have the guidance. It's there.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Because yours, what if I just turn it all off and then it's just my brain is empty? It's not. Well, yours might be.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

I'll be like, I really need a lot of people. I truly believe everyone's soul is trying to get their attention. And quiet and solitude will take you there. And it seems simple, I know, me saying that. And this has taken me years and years of practice of rituals like journaling, meditating, yoga. Those kind of things have drawn me into myself, and you have so much wisdom within you if you just turn off all the noise. So if a woman out there is wondering, they're feeling sad, they're stuck, they're in a relationship that they hate, they're feeling miserable, they've lost themselves. Go and get quiet. And it doesn't cost any money. You can go and sit under a tree, turn off the phone, go for a walk. Say you're unavailable, just get quiet.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

Maybe just let your loved ones know that you're just going for a walk. That'd be an idea. Maybe don't walk through the house, grab the keys, and no that's not recommended that. I love that advice. That's so good. And so what does it mean to you now?

SPEAKER_04 55:55

I think the edge for me was I'd had enough. And my whole journey over the last sort of five years, particularly, was I didn't think I was ever good enough. I wasn't worthy. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

Even in that role, I mean that that is an amazing title to me, Deputy State Coroner. And you still didn't feel like you were enough. No, it's that damn imposter syndrome can fuck right off.

SPEAKER_04 56:21

It's a lot, it's everything. But I now, and I actually have it on a reminder on my phone. It says I am enough. And it comes up twice a day on my phone. Uh and my watch. Okay. And it says I am enough. And so I am actually enough now. I'm enough. Of course you are. So that always were. But yeah, no, I didn't realise that.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

But you didn't feel it. Yeah. Yep. But now I know I am enough. Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful. Well, this has been amazing, Jackie. I am so thankful to you for sharing your vulnerable moments. And I really think that will inspire other women because we often look at women in high-up corporate important jobs. And we might feel lesser, but if we know that somebody, even in that kind of role, can turn around their lives. I think that's really empowering for women. And thank you. Thank you. It's been a joy and a pleasure to have you here. Thanks for listening to That Day with Kylie and Jack. If this story stirred something in you, if you've had that day, we'd love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram at That DayPodcast or get in touch via email. Hosts at thatdaypodcast.com. Your story matters. We're listening.

SPEAKER_03 57:41

We record that day in Narm on the lands of the Waranjri Boy Marong people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to elders, past, present, and honour their enduring tradition of storytelling.