The Day Kylie Orr Made A Police Report

When does silence stop being an option?

The murder of Eurydice Dixon in Melbourne shook Kylie Orr to her core. It forced her to confront a trauma she had carried for decades, something that had quietly shaped her life in ways she hadn’t fully understood.

Kylie, one half of our hosting duo, had spent years building her life around work, family, and creativity, but underneath it all, something had been fractured. The pressures of motherhood, the loss of professional identity, and a lifetime of navigating power imbalances had created a silent storm.

Then came a breaking point. A long-buried trauma collided with a national tragedy, shaking her sense of safety, justice, and agency. Kylie made a decision that risked re-traumatisation, family tension, and facing her deepest fears. A choice that would change everything.

What followed was brutal, exhausting, and profoundly human. While navigating a complex legal system and confronting old wounds, she discovered a strength she hadn’t realised she had.

This isn’t a story of neat closure or easy answers. It’s about rage, resilience, and reclaiming a voice that was once silenced. Through her writing, advocacy, and motherhood, Kylie is redefining what it means to stand up, speak out, and live boldly.

For more information about Kylie, head to her website www.kylieorr.com, follow her on Instagram @kylieorr_writer or sign up to her monthly newsletter, If I'm Honest...

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Life can change in a day. A betrayal, a diagnosis, a devastation, a breakdown.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

This is That Day, the podcast where women tell real stories of the moment life changed, the chaos that followed, and the strength they found along the way. No subject is off limits.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

I'm Jack, a former coroner-turned empowerment coach. And I'm Kylie, once an HR manager, now a published author. Together, we help women tell the stories that matter. By the end of each episode, you'll feel it, you'll learn from it, and carry it with you.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Welcome to that day. This podcast contains conversations about difficult life experiences. Some episodes may include coarse language and themes such as illness, suicide, infertility, or childhood trauma. Please take care while listening and prioritize your well-being.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Help lines are listed in the show notes. Today I'm thrilled to interview my fabulous co-host, Kylie Orr, writer, wife, mother of four, and a fierce advocate for women's voices. She also has a wicked sense of humor. Do I? Setting the bar high. Yeah. Kylie is best known for exploring the hidden lives of everyday people in her complex, character-driven novels. Her debut, Someone Else's Child, was critically acclaimed. Her second novel, The 11th Floor, was named an Apple Books Must Read. And I read it and I totally agree, you must read. It was really cool. It was also recognized as a book of the week by the age. Like many of the women we will speak to on this podcast, Kylie's path hasn't been linear. It's been shaped by profound personal challenges, including the aftermath of trauma, her fight for justice, and the quest to reclaim her agency. Through storytelling, Kylie has transformed pain into power, weaving her lived experience into fiction that is both raw and redemptive. She's here today to share a story of resilience, rage, and reinvention. Kylie Orr, welcome to the other side of the mic.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Thank you, Jack. I've done my nervous wee. Excellent. So good to go.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

You're in safe hands. Um, and we're just really thrilled that you're here. Thank you. I was wondering if you could set the scene for us about what was happening in your life leading up to that moment. Sure. Where were you? What was happening?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

So I was working in a job as an HR manager when I had my first child. That was 22 years ago, just giving away my age here. And I always thought I I was always a sort of career-driven person, very high achieving. So I always wanted or aspired to kind of big things, but I also really wanted a family too. So when we had our first son, I actually was not really loving my job as an HR manager and it was an hour's drive each way from my house. Oh, that's gonna hurt. Yeah. So when I was home with him, my husband said to me, Why don't you just start writing? You've always loved writing. And I Great husband. I know, but also what? Writing's not a job. I didn't even understand how that would be possible. And I was trying to work out how I could make the HR role better. And ironically, it was not at all family-friendly at the time. And when we had our first kids, they didn't have paid maternity leave. I think they brought in that um, I don't know, people called it the TV bonus. Do you remember that? You got like 800 bucks or something when your kid was born. People were just buying TVs with it because they were. My first son was born in 2003. So I don't think we got anything then. Except a free TV? No, nothing. Not even that payment. Anyway, so when he was about five months old, the childcare center called and said we've got a place for him. And I just had this heartbreaking moment. Like, I don't think I can leave him. Like, I think he's too young and I wasn't ready. And so I tried to work something out with my um work, and they were just being very hostile towards motherhood, really, and quite quite a backwards industry. I was trying to work out could I come in two days a week? Could I work from home one day? I mean, work the workplace has changed so much, hasn't it? Yeah. Anyway, it just was not workable at all. So decided to try and start a freelance writing career, as my husband suggested to me, and kept having babies. Oh, we we ended up with four. Right. I mean, we didn't end up with them. I know where they made them. I know how they're made. They didn't just land on the doorstep and we took them in from the box. Right. So the freelancing life was great because it meant that I could work around kids. Yeah. What wasn't great was the fact that I was constantly hustling, like pitching, not hearing from editors. Also, I had to build a portfolio first. I couldn't just walk into a freelance writing job. I don't have a journalism degree. I have an arts degree, which did have an English major, but that doesn't mean that you can just go and write articles for newspapers. You need a portfolio of work. Exactly. Yeah. So I uh there was a call out on a website called Essential Baby. I don't know if you remember, it was quite big. I did read some articles when I was a first-time mum, yeah. So I started writing for them, but I wrote for them for two years for free. Oh. And to have a a byline, which is, you know, your name under a heading. And it was great because I had plenty of fodder. Yes. I was writing in that zone of parenthood, but I think I was trying to write in a much more honest way. I just felt like parenting had all these expectations on it, and I was not finding anything that I could read that was honest. And so I think my writing appealed to people because I was actually saying what a lot of us were thinking. And you were living what we were thinking. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

So the the HR plan sort of drifted quite far away. And then it felt like it was too far gone, and my skills would have been no longer current. And so I just kind of went with the the freelance writing part of it. And my husband was building his own small business in IT. We were essentially surviving on one income because the freelancing was not really bringing much in. With four kids, not easily. And you know, the idea of putting four kids, well, they wouldn't have all been at daycare at the same time. But well, that would have been cost prohibitive. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Three, even two at daycare.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Going back to work, I would have literally been paying for childcare.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

So we decided as a family that that was not viable. But looking back now, I realize work is about much more than just the money. And I kind of let that part of my life go. So I was still ambitious, but I was home with little kids. I had babies who didn't sleep. I was just exhausted all the time. But I love babies. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

So that's why they are cute. I don't like having them argue back. They just cry occasionally.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Occasionally?

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Yeah. Yeah. Mine cried a lot. Yeah. Me too. So the system, the patriarchal system, which I know you love. I love to talk about the patriarchy. Bring it on. Is not was not back then. It's a lot better now, but it wasn't set up for women like you or me, but you particularly, who had four kids, like two was a nice, thank you. But four, like that's double what I had. And I can't even imagine how you did that. And and the system like working in a HR, which is the irony. Yes. Um, they couldn't understand work-life balance back then. I mean, thankfully, we've had women politicians and we've had women leaders over the last 20 years, and things are getting better for our kids' journey through this life. I bloody hope so. Yeah. But we had to pave the way and we had to find the the struggle.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

So is that make sacrifices.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

So what happened what was the cost of that? Well, there were the benefits. So I I've talked to you about how I feel guilty that I wasn't home with my kids, but the benefits for you being home with your kids. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

I loved having little kids, um, but I also found it very difficult. And the performance appraisal you'll get you get from your kids, unlike your boss, is shit. Yeah. Like usually this food's shit. Yeah. I'm bored, like tantrums, it's, you know, losing the plot over having to have a nap. It's I turned off the TV to, you know, just after play school finished, and then there was a meltdown. Like, and my whole life revolved around bloody sleep cycles and play cycles, and they're really fucking long days, aren't they? These little kids. I mean, that's exhausting too. I think it's hard to talk about this honestly because we all love our kids. Like that is a basic standard. But when you talk about the hard parts of motherhood, I think people make the assumption you don't love your kids. And they're two different things. Like you can not love every part of motherhood, but you still adore those children. Yep. And so I was trying to writing was kind of my creative outlet, I guess. But I was also doing the accounting for my husband's business. Right. And I can tell you that is not my dream. Right. Like I am a words person. Yep. Obviously, I could do accounting, like basic accounting. I didn't love it, but you know, we were surviving on one income. We were at a stage of our lives where the decisions we made impacted the family, obviously. So for me to go back to work, the juggle just felt too hard and financially not sure it would have worked. So the payoff there was I got to stay home. But also we had no disposable income. Yeah. So I was watching friends go on holidays, but I also watched friends have to call in sick to work, you know, three weeks in a row because one of their kids was sick, and it's usually the wife. Yeah. And I just looked at that and thought, I can't do that. Like with four kids, one of them's always sick. Yeah. And, you know, we don't cope with being unreliable. Like we're high-achieving women. We work towards these particular jobs where we were well regarded. I just wouldn't have coped if I started to get a reputation as someone who wasn't reliable.

SPEAKER_03 10:23

Yeah. That's good that you knew recognize that in yourself.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Um, but what was the trade-off in terms of your career and your professional life?

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Well, I the whole HR thing disappeared behind me, but it just meant I was slowly losing kind of agency. And I I had no feeling like I was an expert in anything.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Even though you were probably expert at mothering. But when you say the word agency, what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Uh, I just felt like I'd lost, um, I don't know, it's kind of hard to explain. Like on the surface, it looked like we were winning at life. Like we had these four kids, I got pregnant easily, my husband was running his own business, we had all this flexibility. We had, we were living week to week, bills-wise. But I was just starting to feel really financially vulnerable and overly dependent on my husband. And to be clear, he's a great guy. He's progressive, he's hands-on, he's the dad who cooks dinner every night.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Shout out to Nick. I've eaten his food, it's very fucking good.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Thanks, Nick. Okay, here we go. Let's lord him as a hero because he cooks dinner. No, honestly, I think all the time from women, you're so lucky that your husband cooks. And I understand because most women's wish their husband, most women's plural for women. Um anything goes here. They wish they their husband might cook something other than a toasted sandwich. Yeah. But how many women are getting applauded for cooking dinner every night? Yeah. I would say zero. Yeah. Like how many men particularly my food. And mine.

unknown 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

How many? You know, we're good at other stuff. Yeah, we are good. But also the family needs to eat, right? Yeah. And my husband loves cooking, but fuck does he get kudos for it? And he he doesn't care. He's not looking for the kudos. But how many men go to work and say, gosh, you're lucky that your wife cleans piss out of grout and spew out of wherever you're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

He does all the bullshit admin for school. Like anyway. So you're losing agency. I'm losing agency. And what does that feel like? Um, obviously, Nick wasn't gonna run away and leave you with four kids under your arms, but what is that vulnerability? What did what did you feel?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

I think I just felt like, I mean, even though our marriage was fine and secure, I was watching other people's marriages break up and starting to think, holy shit, if this happened to us, I could not support my children. I cannot support my children on a freelance riding wage. And even though I know there's laws around, you know, splitting of incomes and all that stuff, I I knew of men who had who were running their own businesses, who had tinkered with the books enough to fuck their ex over.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Oh, for sure. I've I've got many examples of friends and family law is uh rife with these kind of issues and hidden bank accounts and yeah, it's it's a real problem for many, many women in our culture. Yeah. And if they have decided to be that homemaker and then not having paid, being paid for that work. And no super, no super for lost all those 15, 18 years. Yep. No wonder there's women who are homeless in their 50s. Yeah, it's a great frightening.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that was kind of rumbling in the back of my head, like, oh, I'd be lucky to get a job at at Woolies now. Like, am I going to be scraping things together to try and support these kids? Obviously, I was being very catastrophic in my thinking. And I had spoken to my husband about that insecurity, and he was actually quite offended that I thought if we ever split up that he would ever do that to me and the kids. But you never know, do you? Of course, and when we've had so many friends, yeah. They do mean shit, don't they?

SPEAKER_03 14:15

Like you think you're gonna be above it and then you're not, and because people are in pain or they're angry or whatever, and they act out and and the opposite to love is hate, and hate we see come out vividly and in multiple forms when a marriage breaks up. And it is usually about revenge or you're not worthy of that, and I'm keeping that. And I've been the one working for 20 years. Yeah, you're you can't have my super.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

You can like I mean Nick never ever, he's not the guy that thinks like that. He sees that our the income is a family income, it's not his, you know. But it still doesn't take away the vulnerability. Of course, and also just this feeling like I'd lost skills. I had gained a whole lot of skills, but not skills that are valued in our society. So I guess over time we just slipped into these really traditional roles that neither of us had ever thought about, you know? And I think I just had this kind of rumbling resentment that I didn't realise was creeping in because it's a slithery little bastard, isn't it? Resentment. I wasn't aware of it and he didn't know, but it was coming out in um just these weird small examples. Yeah. Do you want to think of penny examples? So obviously I was doing his bookwork, which was not my dream, and how many women support their husband's business? Many. I mean, I I've tried to like flip this example. Like he's he's doing an IT business, I'm doing his accounts. And you know, I did an arts degree with an English major in the hope that I would who knows what. Have a best-selling Yeah, exactly. A TV deal, etc. Um that's still to come. Correct. Manifestation. But he we just slipped into these weird roles where I was kind of deferring to him for major decisions that we would have normally made equally together, but it was like I'd lost confidence in my ability to have a say. And he never said or did anything to make me feel that way. It was all in my head. But I remember this one day, he got an email to say our home loan rate had changed or something. So it gone down. He just had to fill in this form, but we're co-signatories. So he prints out this form. He doesn't say anything to me, he just hands me the form and says, Can you please sign that? And I said, What is it? He's like, Oh, it's just a change in a home loan rate. And it really pissed me off because I was like, Do you just make all the financial decisions now? Like, is that where we And he's just looking at me like dumbfounded. Where does this come from? What do you mean? Like it's cheaper, it'll be better, it'll save us money. Like we're co-signatories, but in my head, I was like, How did this not even become a conversation? How did I become someone who just is told to sign forms? And then there was tiny little they sound super petty and pathetic, but I think now that I look back, I see why. They start to accumulate, right? Exactly. So another one was I mean, we kind of laugh about it now, but I'd gone out probably to do groceries wrangling kids, and he put an envelope on my keyboard on my desk, and he'd written an address. And I came back home and I'm like, What's what's this? And he said, Oh, I thought you could just send it next time you're out. And I went ape shit. Yep, like you're his admin assistant. I was like, What the fuck? I am not your PA. Yeah, like you don't just stick stuff on my desk, and he's just again, I mean, imagine this. Imagine this poor man. Listeners are like, how the fuck is this guy? I still stayed with me. Yeah, just hands in the air, like I just meant like next time you're going out, if you go past the post office, you know, and like we had a fight about it. And I think I didn't even understand where it was coming from either. But I was just like, I used to be an HR manager, yeah, and now I'm fucking sending posts for my husband's IT business.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Are you serious? So it's this just underlying um resentment that's just burning away, burning away, and you don't even recognize that it's happening until little episodes like this happen. Is that yeah?

SPEAKER_02 18:10

And I think I just felt like the ego and the status and self-esteem or whatever was all tied into my job and my identity. And I was always a fairly high achieving person. I got straight A's at school. If I didn't get a high distinction at uni, I was rocking in a corner. Yep. And also I did an arts degree that was basically bagged by everyone else at uni. You've got one too. Do you? Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're legends. Yeah. You need people with arts degrees because we are critical thinkers. Anyway, but you know, you spend, especially as a woman, you spend a lot of your time proving your worth to other people. And so my worth was slowly degrading, I think. So then I thought I've got to lean into the domestic role because I also recognized Nick's um the burden of being the sole breadwinner. And also he had employed staff, but we didn't have really enough money to take time off. So he never got a holiday. If he took time off, we couldn't pay ourselves because we had to pay the staff. So he carried the burden of someone else's livelihood as well. So I did recognize that I didn't want to make these comments to him and stress him out when he was already carrying his own stress. But another petty example I remember is what I was trying to do, tell myself was you are the core caregiver here. Like you, it's really important. The job you're doing is important. You're raising, you know, four people that you want to thrive. And it's an important job. And obviously, Nick's very hands-on dad. But his was more things that he would get approval for, like coaching the local foodie club, cooking dinner, like hero status. Yes. Whereas women are the ones up at the PTA meetings, sitting through those boring committee things, fundraising, whatever. It's just hours of invisible work. Yeah, it's invisible. It's invisible and unpaid labor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

That's what it is. And it's it's happening to many, many women.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

And it's unfair. Absolutely. And so I think the unfairness and the injustice of that is creeping in with the resentment. But I remember this one day I was sitting at the table and I was filling out a camp form with my then young teenage son. And he at the time was suffering from just some stomach issues. We didn't really know what they were. And I said, under the medical stuff, I was sitting at the table with my son and said, Do you want me to write that to explain it to the teachers? And he's like, Oh, I don't know, maybe we're having this conversation. And then my husband from the kitchen, obviously, because he was cooking, because he's a hero. Not all heroes wear capes, Jackie. I'm over aprons. Uh he doesn't even do that. Uh, then I do the washing with all the stains on it. He yells from yells, calls out from the kitchen, no, you don't have to put that on the form.

unknown 20:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

And I'll just inside, I just felt like saying to him, Are you fucking right?

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Yeah. Do you have to undermine my parenting now?

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Can I please be the expert in something? Like I know my own kid. Yep. But I think what happened was for me to say that, it felt like I was saying to him, you don't have a say, instead of just saying, I would like to have a say here. It was like he just and I don't think he meant to come over the top. Again, I am very fine at parties, people.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

He was trying to help you, but like by taking the burden away, perhaps.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Yeah, he was trying to help us. And maybe he was listening to all this indecision and thought, Oh, for God's sake, this is not a big decision. Just don't, you don't need to put it. But I took that as why are you, yeah, why are you undermining me?

SPEAKER_03 21:42

So I think my And his perception of these conversations would be completely different if we asked him.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Of course. He was genuinely surprised by my anger. And if I tried to bring it up with him, he would say, Do I not have a say? Like it's not like I'm some absent father. Like he was there, he was very active in their Lives, but I was the one doing 12 hour days with these small people. Yep. In the trenches.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

In the trenches.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Um, so I think looking back, my self-esteem had taken a real hit. I didn't realize that I was getting all this external validation through work and uni and all those other things. And now I was home with four people who just probably thought I was a bit shit.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

Bit soul crushing. Yeah. Knowing that you could you were you're capable of so much more, but at this moment in time, it wasn't the time for you to thrive like that. You were there helping your kids thrive. Yeah. And that took a toll on your self-esteem and you know, identity.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Mothers do it. Like we are, I mean, it sounds like we're being martyrs, but we're not. I think we just we do take a back seat in order to lift everybody else up. But I think we also cop a lot of judgment. And so I felt I felt judged for leaving my career. I felt judged for having four kids. Because, you know, every time you say you got four kids, people's eyes just burst out of their heads. Like, what? So also, are they all the same father? I'll just answer that. Oh, well, yes. I've been asked that. I have been asked that question. Fascinating. Is it? Well, yeah. Fascinating to be asked, are they all the same father? Is that not fucking rude? That is extreme.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

I've never been asked something like that, so I don't know. You've got two kids, are they both the same father? Like no one would ask for that. Yeah, no, that's rude. But where was where do you think the judgment was coming from? Myself. Yeah, okay. I mean, look at that. So do you have been to therapy for many years? Yeah. So it was internal judgment. Do you think there was external judgment or you had just internalized that? I think there was.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

I felt external judgment.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

To your face or you know, people make comments and also if I had a mum pickup moments, that's where the judgment kills. For example, can I just raise one here for me? Sure. Oh, who? You're Sam's mum? I've never seen you before. Oh my god. You're never here. Oh, that's interesting. Wow. Rude. The judgment in those just little lets do a drive by cutting by comments. I feel my heart goes out to all those mums waiting in the schoolyard, petrified about what comments or judgments are going to come flying their way.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Yeah. And that is, I mean, that's such a cliche that and I I would never say that to anyone. But also the flip of that is that when I have tried to have conversations with people about like they're talking about their workplace or something, and maybe I throw in a suggestion, they just kind of look at me like, oh, but what would you know? Like when were you last in a workplace? Wow. Women can be quite cutting. Mark. I mean, like your skill actually is no longer valid here. So what would you know? Yeah. And what would you know about mothering, Jackie? Because you were too busy. Yeah, I had nannies doing it. How would I know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You just threw all your cash at other people to raise your children. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

There's judgment.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

You're feeling it? I'm feeling it.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

It's everywhere. Yeah. So yes, you do internalize it too. Yeah. So I think it was just this whole bubbling of lots of resentment, judgment. And then I just started kind of getting angry about the imbalance and the precarious income. Yep. And I then I just got angry at the patriarchy. Yeah. So anybody Fair enough. Anybody who knows me just knows that I dropped the P-word probably every second sentence.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

Well, that's fair. And in if you think about your circumstances, absolutely, you were in a very precarious situation.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

But I didn't know it. And they were all choices we made. It wasn't like, you know, we were put into this position. It we made we decided to have four children and were lucky enough to be able to do that. We decided I would work in a more flexible job. We made all these decisions very consciously. So it felt like, why am I getting angry about this? Like we decided to do this.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

And you don't realize that it's really about your autonomy and losing who you are by by dis making all these decisions. Yeah. For the family means that you're chipping away at what you need.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Exactly. And also the the writing that I was doing that was helping my brain and making me feel like I had something to say, and maybe that was subconsciously giving me a voice, firstly was unpaid. And then when I was in a position to be able to pitch articles, then you're in this world where the power imbalance is out again because you either get ignored or rejected. I mean, it's a world publishing anything to do with writing is a world of again, insecurity. There's no secure income for that. So effectively, if you want to be cynical about it, I had moved to two voluntary jobs. Yep. Motherhood and writing.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

But take me to the writing. I have been fortunate enough to read two of your books. How did it help you find yourself and give you a voice, even if it was unpaid, even if it was moments in time when the kids were either at school or crash or you had a quiet time in the house? I don't even know when you would have found time to write. But what did it give you? What did writing give you?

SPEAKER_02 27:10

I think I I always loved writing. Like English at school was my favorite subject. Yes, I know there's people groaning internally or externally. It just gave me an outlet that was mine. It was something that was mine because my whole day was about everybody else. So when were you finding these pockets of time? So probably by this stage, a couple of my kids were probably in school. And once they all turned one, they all went to daycare for one day a week. So I used that day to do next book work with seething resentment. And then I would write. And I could write pretty quickly. And I was writing like 800-word articles, which I could bang out quite quickly. And because I was drawing on my own life, I mean, not telling the audience or my private things, but just talking about common things, toddler tantrums at the supermarket, blah, blah, blah. It was quite easy for me. So I really enjoyed that part of it. And when did you decide to write your first novel? Uh, that was when my youngest, my daughter, started prep. I decided to give myself a year that I was going to try and write this elusive novel and see how we go. And I look back and think I had moments where I was probably bordering, I wouldn't say on a breakdown, but I had definite moments where I couldn't stop crying.

unknown 28:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

And I think that is definitely a sign your body is trying to tell you you are not coping. Yep. And I was a coper. I never asked for help. My parents would have helped me if I rung, but you're a strong, organized, capable. Yeah. And also why you had so many kids that I didn't want that burden on. I felt like I chose to have all these kids. It's my responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Anyway. She does love her kids, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

I do. I know it sounds like I don't. Actually, my daughter often asks me, Are you happy that you had four kids? Like, of course I am. I love you all, but it's a lot of work that I didn't understand at the time. Anyway, no, I I do remember this other example. Sorry, this is jumping back a bit. But my sister in Laura and I, for Mother's Day, so she had a baby similar age to my youngest. That was her first. She said, Let's book in for like a massage together. Um, you know, whatever, Mother's Day thing. Her and her husband came up to our house, dropped their child off. So the our hers and my youngest were like 18 months old. And the blokes were looking after the kids, right? Looking up. Was the footy on? They were babysitting. Yes, the footy was on. So we love how dads babysit. Yeah. I know. It's like furious. It's their kids. Yeah. So we went and had this massage. I actually fell asleep and snored on the table. That's how tired I was. Yeah. And then we get home and the house was a bomb site. Like, and my husband and his brother were watching the footy with the ears, and they had the nice platter with the salami and cheese. And I just, you know, because someone else was there, I didn't sort of explode when I walked in. But I'm like, oh, where are the kids? Oh, they're on the trampoline. On the trampoline. But my youngest is 18 months old. I mean, the older They've been there for five hours. We just locked them in, like a big play pen. They're happy. We haven't heard the older kids were there. So, you know, my eldest would have been 10 or whatever. Yeah. And so he's like, Oh, I probably should go and check, actually. So he he goes and checks, and then he brings my daughter up, who's still in nappies, and he just sort of like holds her out to me. And I just looked at him and went, That's on your watch, mate. Like I so he goes to change the nappy, he comes out and he says, Oh, you dodged a bullet there to me. Why are you laughing? This is not funny, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:37

I I told everyone at the start of this podcast, she's very funny. I don't mean to be. This is very rage. It's rage because you've let the years continue and things have sort of calmed down a little bit at the time. I can imagine.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

But anyway, so he so I'm like wanting to I want to see a telemovie of this. I've literally just come back, supposedly from a massage to relax me. And I come home to that disaster site. And I don't, I like to have a clean house, but I know that that's almost impossible with four kids. Anyway, so I do all the polite shit, and then my brother-in-law and sister in law re leave, and we sit down at the table, and I just start crying. I can't stop crying. I don't even know why I'm crying. And my husband's like, What's wrong? What's happened? And the kids are all sitting at the table. I'm trying not to let them see that I'm upset. I can't even articulate what's wrong. I had to go to bed. Yeah. And then realized. I said to Nick later, my life is just on pause. Yeah. Like when I have a break, it's just a pause. And then I come home and it's the same shit. And like it's not okay. Like, I know you think that it was lighthearted what you did, but you don't understand. I never get a fucking break. And then I get a break, and then I just come back and I know all of this is my problem. Like you get to get up and go to work tomorrow, and I'm just gonna be here.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

And so I think I had quite a few of those kind of moments, but I didn't- They were building up over time. Yeah. And I didn't let them in.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

So I just left on the next day. Yeah. Rather than um letting them out, you let them fetter. Pussy wound. Yeah. And so what was it that cracked you open? What was the moment when you just hit the edge and said enough?

SPEAKER_02 32:23

So I guess, like many women, it wasn't particularly it was a bubbling underneath. But this is going to be a very strange link. But I don't know if you remember there was a case in Melbourne, a young woman who was a comedian called Yubrita C. Dixon. I hope I'm saying that right. That's right. And so she was walking home through in Melbourne late at night after a gig, and she was raped and murdered. Horrendous. And I don't know why it was that, because so many women before her have been raped and murdered and killed, and just it's like we just accept it now. It's just, I mean, oh, isn't that sad? And then we just move on. But for some reason, that one particularly hit home. And I think it did for a lot of Melbourne because there was a comedy gig, wasn't she? And then they had a silent vigil in Princess Park. I think 10,000 people came or something like that. And I just something snapped in me. I was furious. I was furious that it was just unsafe to exist as a woman. I was furious about how little progress we'd made and just totally pissed off that the value of my unpaid work, which was keeping four humans alive and thriving, was invisible, and that women's lives just seemed to have no value. Like everywhere in work, at home, walking home from your job, we can just be erased. And maybe it was just that invisibility and just thinking it's just another woman who's been erased, and we're not even surprised anymore. So that rage kind of cracked something open in me, and what came out was probably everything I'd had locked in there for decades. Right. So were you watching the news? What was the moment that so I was I was sitting at my desk, I shared an office with my husband at the time, and I was reading something online, and then I just pushed my chair out from the desk and stood up and said to him, I'm gonna put in a report.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

And that report Sorry, it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Okay. This story hasn't been told before publicly. No.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

So when I was eight, um a family member sexually assaulted me. My family knew because I told my sister on the day it happened and she was only ten. I don't know how she even knew to tell. Like no, we didn't even know about this stuff. Um but sorry. I shouldn't say sorry because I'm very happy for um guests to cry. Um but it was the 80s and there weren't clear systems, you would know. Um he it was a family member who was who married into the family. Um they had kids. So it was it was very public on the day. Like I remember the the adults kind of all just looking at each other when my sister told them. And you were still at the same place. Yeah, we were at a park. Okay. And anyway, the adults decided not to drag me through the court. And I I I always felt believed. I never felt like they didn't believe me, but there's silence around it. Would you like a tissue?

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Was there outrage from the adults? Um that you say they believed you.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah, look, it was just really awkward because obviously it's a family member. And you know, that that couple had two kids, and I think people just people didn't know what to do. But my dad was quite a volatile, like highly intelligent, amazing guy who's no longer with us, but had a temper, and I am shocked to this day that he did not kill my uncle. But instead, he walked me around the oval of the park and said, I just want you to know that not all men are like this. So I don't know what he was trying to get through, but he he was obviously trying to manage the situation or whatever. It it wasn't that I wasn't believed, I just we just went on with life. And my mum told me that they watched me like a hawk. Like they were making sure that I wasn't showing any signs of distress, like bed wedding or, you know, the usual playing up at school. And she said you seem to just get on with it. So we didn't, we didn't want to drag you through the courts, we didn't know how to do that. We didn't want to. She actually said at the time we didn't want to break up a family, which looking back to me I find so strange, but it was a different time. It was a different thing through a different lens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

It was kind of not not forgotten about, no. But just let's move on.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Yeah, and let's if she's not dwelling on it, let's not dwell on it. And my dad had done a partial law degree, actually, but got disillusioned with the law, so pulled out. So I think he he was quite strong about the fact we do not want to drag this kid through the courts. Like what what benefit would that do?

SPEAKER_03 38:00

And re-traumatize the child. And imagine in the 80s. May or may not be have been believed. You feel a parent might have been back in the 80s thought, who's going to believe a child over an adult?

SPEAKER_02 38:12

And also my parents grew up in Ballarat, which you would know about because you did too. I grew up in Ballarat.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Which is like the epicenter of priests.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

But mum said she didn't even know the word pedophile. We didn't, like it was it just was not something that was spoken about. Anyway, I didn't realize how it impacted my life. Like I did just get on with it, and maybe that's why I am a very capable get on with it kind of person. But I hated being in rooms, closed doors with men. Like I it changed, it changed the way I lived my life. Like I couldn't fully relax in intimate relationships. It made me hyper-vigilant as a parent. Like I would scan any man in the vicinity. And if he gave me off any kind of vibe that he was dodgy, fuck, I was out of there. My kids, you know, like I was walking them to the doors of parties when they were in like year seven and eight, much to their horror. And I'm like, well, this is the deal. I either meet the parents or you're not going.

SPEAKER_03 39:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

And I actually remember at uni I had a lecturer who wanted to talk to me about, I don't know, some of some assignment that was, you know, maybe one mark off of HD. Ouch. Yeah. Ouch. He asked me to come to his office and then he wanted me to close the door. And I just had this not panic attack, but just like, fuck, I I don't I don't know how to tell him that I don't want the door shut. But I was an adult woman. Like I was 19. If I didn't want to be in there, I could just walk straight out the door. But it's still, you have all those feelings. And I think the other thing was that my daughter was eight at the time that Eurydice was killed. And I think it all just came together. I looked at her and thought, fuck, if anyone did to her what he did to me, like I just I I couldn't stay quiet.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Like and I think I had that repressed rage for 30 something years.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

I think I was in my 40s by then, yeah. And I think I just started to think it was actually my responsibility to report the offender because what happens if he does it to someone else? And also I made this really weird link that maybe like if he kept offending it might escalate to murder.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

Yeah. And imagine a reasonable assumption, is it? Yeah, absolutely. You feared for your life when you were eight. And as an adult, why wouldn't you think the same thing if someone is escalating? That is normal thought.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

And also I was eight, and by the time I had these ideas, I was 44 or whatever. And so I just kind of got it in my head that I have to report him. I I ended up deciding I'm gonna report him. And so that day when I pushed off from the table, I said to Nick, I've decided I'm gonna put in a report. And you can do it anonymously. Yep. My husband said to me, Why would you do it anonymously? And that actually gave me this incredible power. So I did put in a report, and my I ended up telling my family that I'm not asking your permission. I'm telling you this is what I'm gonna do. But I knew it would impact all of them because they all had to make statements because they were all there. And was the uncle still married to your No, so they were married for a few years after that, but you know, they had little kids, and and of course he denied that he did anything. But there was another family member who was also assaulted by him. So around the same time or no years before. Oh wow. And so Did that only come out that only came out on the day of the picnic that it happened to me. Um but I knew that reporting him meant I was dragging all these people into this. But I think this is the thing about the edge is when you hit it, nothing, nobody can convince you otherwise. Like for you, people might have said, just take a break, and then you might be refreshed and go, you know, in your head, like the clarity there.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

You can't unknow what you know now. Yeah, yeah. And you can't go back. No. In fact, you've got momentum to push you forward. And you had uridacy and you had an eight-year-old daughter. Yeah. And you had rage. Yeah. 32 years of rage.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

Rage. Yeah. Like I've got goosebumps actually thinking about your rage right now. I was just sick of it, sick of it all.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

And but I did also feel this heavy responsibility that I need to do this to stop him.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

So I did you wanted to report him, but do you did you also want him to be held accountable? Yes. I wanted him to know we know.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Yeah. We know what you did and you need to stop. And you need to be held to account. I wasn't even looking for justice because I knew the likelihood of this ever happening was so small.

SPEAKER_03 43:19

I mean, do you know anything about the yeah, the rates of um historical successful um historical child abuse cases being uh a man being found guilty are are pretty rare. Yeah. And so many people either don't make the complaint or go through with it right to the end to a um criminal trial with a jury because they get acquitted and um that hurts the processes again. Yeah. Because someone gets away with it. And then you've had a jury of twelve people who actually have sided with someone who you know is guilty. Yeah. Yeah. The the system, yeah, the patriarchy is not set up to protect women.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

Yeah, well I I mean, I I had a lot of people not talk me out of it, but just say, like, my family were excellent, very supportive, like it's fine, whatever you need, you tell us, we'll get it. Information dates, blah, blah, blah. And I do wonder if my dad my dad had died in 2017 of cancer, and this was, I think, the following year. And I wonder if he was still alive, if he would have strongly talked me out of doing it. Not because he didn't believe me. Yeah. I think he knew how taxing it would be. And strangely, he was so outspoken about the abuse in the Catholic Church, like raged at the TV. And I used to wonder, is how he never says anything to me. Like since that day, there was never a conversation with me about are you doing okay? But of course, it was in a different context, a different time. And they did the best. Of course. And they were trying to protect me as best they could. And imagine their guilt at, you know, and not just my parents, my auntie, like all anyway. So I decided to put in a report. I had no idea how this worked. I had this incredible detective at Socket who just took me in. She actually came to the book launch of my second book. I didn't know she was there. She just dropped the back. Oh, how beautiful. Yep. And she believed you.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

Anyway, the process. Oh my god. Most police officers that work for Socket and hear these stories every day are just amazing and worth their weight in gold. And they do such a good job.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

I know.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

In a system that is not built to support Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

And they they're very good at telling you that look, you know, this is it's really hard to get things across the line, whatever. I didn't care. I just I kind of wanted it on record. Like I didn't didn't understand how the system worked, but I just thought maybe if I make a report, there might be a link, like there might be an unsolved case, and it might just be the tiny little detail that I don't know. The process, as expected, was brutal. I had flashbacks, insomnia, headaches. It was shit. But it was necessary. And um I felt bad for all my family had to come and give reports. But all those strong women in my family, they did it. They all did it. And he was charged. And I didn't know at the time, but the the detective said to me, she had folders and folders. The investigation they did was incredible. They went to my childhood home. They requested house plans from the time. Like they it was very thorough. She drove to interview him and then she rang me after the interview and I said, He's you can tell he's guilty, can't you? And she's like, You know I can't say that, Kylie, but I can tell you he was sweating. Yeah. Um, and he remembered the day.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Well. What what not guilty person doesn't like you know, you know, who remembers a picnic in fucking 1983? So when you found out that he was charged, how did that uh I did a little happy dance. Yeah. And I've got a friend who's a lawyer who worked for Casa, Centre Against Sexual Abuse, and she said to me, Kylie, you have to celebrate every small win. And when I say small win, I'm ta I'm talking about when the police detective pulls up to his house and walks down his driveway, that's a win. And knocks. Yeah. And all his neighbors are thinking, why is there a police car out the front of his house? All those tiny things you've got to hang on to. The fact that he was charged, huge. So the first caught I knew, like I was so scared of going to court, but I knew that when I put in that report, if it ever goes this way, I'm gonna have to do it. I knew from the start it was a possibility, and I think that's why people were trying to talk me out of it.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Not talk me out of it, just go, are you sure this is what you want to do?

SPEAKER_03 48:04

But you had your agency again and you were determined. I was I could not be told.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Like I was fucking doing this. Yep. So he pleaded not guilty because of course he fucking did. But I was kind of picturing that he would have to stand there. I think I don't know what number wife or partner he was on, but he had a partner there. He has to stand in a court.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

Usually full with a number of other people there facing. And the the charge is read out. His name's name. His name.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

He he enters his plea, and that's in a very public forum. And almost that was enough for me. I was like, even though he pleaded not guilty, I don't give a shit. He was humiliated publicly. And he knows we know. We know what you did. You didn't get away with it.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

And he would have had a copy of the brief as well. If he was charged, he would have absolutely been given a copy of the brief. So he would have seen all of your statements. Yep. So the evidence was piling up. He was starting to feel under threat, probably. Which he should have.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

He should have, and he did. And then I'm not sure what the timing was, but perhaps a month later, I got a phone call and he died of a heart attack. And this is going to sound ridiculous, but the first words that came into my head were ding dong, the witch is dead. I I to me the relief I felt was immense because he had been charged. But I didn't have to go to court and mostly he just couldn't hurt anybody again. Some people in the family felt that he escaped justice. How do you feel about that? I don't. I think it's the perfect outcome to me. Because I think if he hadn't have been charged or hadn't have had that court date, I would have felt like that's I would have felt like I did it all for nothing. Yeah. But I didn't. I felt like he did the wrong thing and he paid with his life. And my husband said to me, Well, you're a really strong and dangerous w woman. You can kill people remotely. It's like he killed himself. Like, I mean, not he didn't take his own life. He knew he was guilty and guilt killed him. And so And that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:28

That's his that's his burden. That's his life story. So to me it was Where are you now? That that was very traumatic. Yeah, it was sort of a an unusual end to a story that you thought was going to go down another path.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Yes, when I rang the detective to tell her, she just she was silent for like a few beats, and then she's like, Oh my god, I've heard of people taking their own lives, you know, I've heard of people dying of old age. He wasn't that old. She's like, I've never had a case ending like this. And then I went in and we met, and she went through the whole case, and there was two massive folders. And anyway, yeah, I was very relieved. I mean, I still had to work through flashbacks and headaches and all that shit. Counseling, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

So it cost a lot. So having the courage to do that, to to make the complaint in the first instance, to go through the whole process of having all of your family make statements, the burden of that, the emotional and um physical and and spiritual depletion to do that cost a lot. Yeah. In terms of, you know, but I might do it again. But you're doing it. Do it again. Absolutely. And I'm not that's in your mind, that's and soul and heart, that's the right thing that you do.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

Yeah. I mean, I just if someone had asked me when I was 20, d why don't you report your perpetrator, I would have said I don't need to. Like it doesn't really affect my life and I never see him, we never cross paths, I don't care. But with age and wisdom and my own daughter and Eurydice and all the women, I just I don't know, it was just this compilation of fuck this, why are these people getting away with this shit? Yeah. It made me realise that I was strong and brave. You are not very articulate right now, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

You are very courageous and extremely brave, and thank you for being so vulnerable and talking to us about this. I think I'm sure a lot of women will hear this and think that you're an incredible woman for sharing this story.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

I think it might make people understand better why people think I have no filter, but I think it's because I had no voice for so long and all the stuff leading up to that with being at home with kids and feeling like I had no power and no agency. It just all contributed. And I think the hardest thing for me was when I went to counseling, I was just thinking what trajectory was that eight-year-old girl on and like how did this change my life? I know you can't think like that, but it just made me sad that maybe I wouldn't be so angry and so rageful if that didn't happen to me. I mean, I think I'm a good person and I think I do good things and I connect with people and I speak my mind and I'm very angry about injustice, and now I just put my voice to it and it makes me braver. But I do feel sad about who I could have been. But I know lots of people have trauma and you can't you can't live like that, thinking what would happen if that didn't happen in my life. Um, so yeah, now I'm someone who I'm not afraid to speak up. I talk openly with my kids about these issues, so much so that like I was talking about consent at the dinner table, and my 16-year-old at the time just looked at me and said, Mum, I'm trying to eat my dinner. Like, I'm not gonna go. And we have this conversation after the substantial. I'm not being graphic, I'm just telling you, like, consent is really important. And I don't apologize for raising hard topics. I don't worry if people are uncomfortable now because I'm like, well, this shit has to be spoken about, and maybe that's why I rant about the patriarchy too, because this shit matters and yeah, I mean, it makes me who I am today, but I I'm so glad I was able to tell my story before he died. But also I just want to make sure that any listeners who can relate to this, even though I had this very strong feeling of responsibility to other women, I am not saying that that is what every victim needs to feel.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Everyone's experience of this is different.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

Yeah, and you you might not be in a place where you have enough strength to do it, or you don't have the support or the resources or whatever it is, or maybe it's just not something you feel like you need to do. But it was this overwhelming thing for me, like no more. There's no more silence around this. My family's been silent as a way, I think, of coping to cope and protect. Like, who wants to keep talking about it? It's it's not something you keep bringing up. But the silence changed things for me. And that's I think why eventually I just said enough.

SPEAKER_03 55:39

So thank you. Agency has been a theme in this discussion today. Yeah. So going through this whole process, what has that done for your agency?

SPEAKER_02 55:53

I mean, it's hard because I think the lack of agency has unfortunately run through a lot of themes in my life. And now as a published author, I am again in this position where I'm, you know, the power imbalance is huge. Unless you're very high-selling, very, you know, sought-after established author, you are small fish. And so trying to advocate for myself and I want people to hear the stories that I write because they do actually come. I'm not writing uh autobiographies or stuff like that. But you pour your stories into the stuff. Yeah, I mean, if you read if you reread the 11th floor now, you might read it from a very different very excellent novel.

SPEAKER_03 56:39

And I do think I will read it now. It's not different biographical, but it's certainly my rage.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

I when I gave it to my mum to read an early copy, she handed it back to me and said, There's a lot of you in here, Kylie. I think So did that give you a sense of power? Yes, I think writing is where I can have agency. I've had to learn, like I'm a very slow learner about this, that I can only control certain things. And, you know, like every industry, um, publishing is quite hard. A lot of it's out of your control. How well your book sells, who reads it, you know, whether it gets a window in a bookshop or whatever, none of that is in my control. I can only control the story that I write. And I hope it connects to readers in a way that is authentic. And I really pride myself on being an authentic person. Like when I meet people at events and they see my social media, they say to me, Oh my God, you're just exactly the same. And that is a compliment for me. I am not putting on a face. I don't, I don't pretend to be someone I'm not. I love swearing, I get angry, I bitch about the patriarchy. You know, I have true to yourself. Yeah. And because I for so long I was, you know, trying to live this life where I was just like the good daughter, and then I was the good wife, and then I was the good mother, and actually not good at half those things. And I was the good student, and then for a while I tried to be the good author. And And how has that served you? It's fucked. None of it pays off because we're gonna see naughty Kylie now.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

Yeah. Bring it on. We're gonna see bad girl. Wait till the next book.

SPEAKER_02 58:19

No, I think it just I just had this inner strength and resolve that I wasn't relying on anything external to give it to me. Like I finally went, you know what? I have fucking been through all this shit. I've parented four children, you know, I've been through some hell and I'm still here. I'm still talking, I'm still striving, still ambitious for great things, I still have dreams.

SPEAKER_03 58:44

And you're still really funny. Thanks, mate. Yeah, like despite all of this, you have a wicked sense of humor.

SPEAKER_02 58:51

Yeah, but maybe that's why, although my dad had a pretty good sense of humor. But yeah, I mean, maybe that's why I write about dark topics, but also try to be light in life because it's heavy.

SPEAKER_03 59:02

Yeah. And it's it's hard to walk around this world in a heavy way. Yeah. It's best if we try and find our light and um here she goes. Shine brightly. Here she comes. The empowerment coach has arrived. Give me the words. You've empowered yourself. Have I? Yeah. Okay. But if there's give me a little critical analysis of the uh perfect the arc.

SPEAKER_02 59:25

No, that's that's writing. What what do you say in empowerment coaching?

SPEAKER_03 59:28

Like No, you've empowered yourself. You don't need my help at all.

unknown 59:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

You're there. That's a very empowerment coach thing to say, isn't it? But if there are women at home who uh are listening to this and they're they're really resonating with the woman at home with the kids, the burden of trying to raise kids that you love, but geez, they take a lot of effort. The financial vulnerability, the loss of identity, the repressed rage, the Oh my god, the story sounds fucking terrible. For those women, and there are plenty of women out there that are listening, just wanting to scream. If they're in their car right now, they're probably just going, Fuck, there's someone to quiet as well in my car. So what what message have you got for them? I don't know. I don't like to give other people advice. Actually, that's not true. I give my kids advice all the time. But if you're giving yourself advice right now, I would just say no more pretending.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

Like it's exhausting. Don't quiet yourself for other people. Like if you want to stir the pots, fucking shake the sky. I you know, these are our stories, your stories. If you want to tell them, you tell them. Like they're complex, but they're true. And it might not be something traumatic like mine was. It might just be that I mean, I I think the idea of happiness is flawed. And I don't think that we should be constantly searching for happiness. But if you are in a time in your life where you just feel like, I think there's more than this, I think there's more to me. I think something needs to change or something needs to give, I think it's fine to voice it, have a conversation about it. It doesn't have to be because what happens is when you repress it, like I did, it comes out as snarky comments and getting pissed off about an envelope on your desk. And had I just taken some time to think about how I was feeling and communicate that to my husband or have a think about what I actually wanted. But I think what I was doing was internalizing everybody's possible response. So if I say to my husband, I'm really not happy at home anymore, I I don't know, I think I want to go back to work. That felt to me like I was saying, I don't like being around my kids. And I didn't want to say that because I loved being around my kids, not every day, maybe three out of seven days a week. That's not true. But you can't undo the past, right? You can't. And also I didn't want him to feel like he was probably slogging it out too. Like he's trying to get a business off the ground and he had a whole lot of stress, so I didn't want to put stress on him. And and same for the court case. Like, so worried about putting pressure on other people and bringing up baggage from the past. And then I just went, you know what, fuck this. Like, who else is walking around worrying about what I think all the time? Nobody. And I'm not saying be what's the word, insensitive or selfish or whatever. But sometimes when you hit your edge, you have to be. You've just got to go, you know what? This is actually what I need to do for me, and this is going to make me a better person for my children and my husband and my family.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:33

And this thing called life is not easy. No, you mean not every day is going to be sunshine. Oh, it is from now. Yeah. From today. It's they're moments in time. Yeah. And they form part of the the story of our lives. Yep. And each one is a chapter. When you learn this about yourself, then you can start to write your own chapter and the next chapter. And what does the next version of Kylie Orr look like? What's the next chapter look like? I don't know. This podcast is pretty important to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

What's important about this? I think women having the courage to tell not just their story, but tell the ugly bits and giving them permission to say it. And also giving women and men, whoever wants to listen to this podcast, hope that you can get through the shitty times. And you know, some people have many more shitty times than other people, and that sucks. But there's many ways forward, and um, yeah, you just gotta be true to yourself. And so I think giving women the platform to be true to themselves.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:42

Before we finish, yeah, what's a tag for what word would I put? Yeah, what word would you put with your story so far?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

Um I was gonna say brave, but I think strong. Like you can be brave, but maybe not have the energy to fight or whatever. I think in order for me to make that report, I needed to feel strong enough. And so I did. I did feel strong enough. Or maybe it should be pissed off enough.

unknown 1:04:11

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

And two songs are coming into my head right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:14

What are they? I'm strong enough. Isn't there a chair song? Yes, and also also strong. Anyway. Is there a Cheryl Crown? Yeah. Anyway, anyway. Always bring it back to a song. So strong enough. I think is strong enough. I am so Kylie, thank you so much for sharing that vulnerability. What an honour and a privilege to have sat here with you listening to this. And and I think you are strong enough and amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

I would like to say it's been a joy and a pleasure, but it's mostly been tears and snort.

unknown 1:04:44

That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:46

Thank you for having me. No worries. Thank you for coming out. On my own podcast. Thanks for listening to That Day with Kylie and Jack. If this story stirred something in you, if you've had that day, we'd love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram at That DayPodcast or get in touch via email. Hosts at thatdaypodcast.com. Your story matters. We're listening.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:10

We record that day in Naram on the lands of the Waranjri Boywarong people, the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to elders, past, present, and honor their enduring tradition of storytelling.