That Day with Jac Hawkins & Kylie Orr
Everyone has a day they never forget. In That Day, Australian women tell the powerful stories of the moment that changed their lives and what happened next.
That Day with Jac Hawkins & Kylie Orr
The Day Kylie Eklund-Denman Lost Her Husband
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What happens when the thing you feared most … comes true?
*Please take care while listening—this episode includes references to suicide. If this brings anything up for you, support is available via Lifeline on 13 11 14.
Kylie Eklund-Denman knew something was wrong the moment she saw the police car parked in her driveway. Her husband had died. Just like that, her life unravelled. She was alone with two children and facing a future she had never imagined.
For years, her world had revolved around managing her husband’s illness and holding together a fragile home. When that structure disappeared, so did the version of herself she thought she knew.
What followed was rock bottom and the confronting task of rebuilding from nothing. Not just a life without her partner, but an identity beyond ‘wife’ and ‘mum’.
From there, Kylie began the long process of finding her way back to herself, slowly learning what it meant to live again, to trust again, and to step into a future she never expected. Along the way, she discovered new passions, including a deep love of travel and Japanese culture, that begin to gently reshape how she sees her life.
This is a story about loss, courage, and the unexpected freedom that can come when everything you built your life around is suddenly gone.
For more information about Kylie, you can visit her website: www.kylieeklunddenman.com or follow her on Instagram @kylieeklund_denman.
⚠️ Our episodes contain conversations about difficult life experiences. Some episodes include coarse language and themes such as childhood trauma, sexual assault, infant loss and references to suicide. Please take care while listening and prioritise your wellbeing.
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Production assistance from John Hresc at Sydney Sound Brewery
Life can change in a day.
SPEAKER_00A betrayal, a diagnosis, a devastation, a breakdown. This is That Day, the podcast where women tell real stories of the moment life changed, the chaos that followed, and the strength they found along the way. No subject is off limits. I'm Jack, a former coronator and empowerment coach. And I'm Kylie, once an HR manager, now a published author. Together, we help women tell the stories that matter. By the end of each episode, you'll feel it, you'll learn from it, and carry it with you. Welcome to that day. This podcast contains conversations about difficult life experiences.
SPEAKER_02Some episodes may include coarse language and themes such as illness, suicide, infertility, or childhood trauma. Please take care while listening and prioritize your well-being. Help lines are listed in the show notes. Kylie Eklund Denman is an Australian writer and a passionate Japanophile. Is that how I say it, Kylie? Yes. She's also a blogger, foodie, plant collector, birdwatcher, and a qualified sake similar. I made her say that because she speaks Japanese and probably French. Who knows? She lived through something most of us will never understand. Losing her husband shattered her world and forced her to look at suicide in a completely different way. Kylie turned to Japanese culture as a way to understand this devastation, to release the stigma, and to embrace compassion for her late husband. She's finally living life her way.
SPEAKER_01Welcome, Kylie. Thank you. Welcome, Kylie. Thank you. We're so happy that you're joining us today. Before we delve into that day that changed your life, could you briefly describe your life before that pivotal moment?
SPEAKER_03My life was very much out of my control. I feel like I followed things without much thought or life kind of happened to me rather than me deciding what to do. I fell into jobs and fell into relationships and most of it was pretty unhealthy. You were working in hospitality. Hospitality. So I had been working as a chef and that came to a very abrupt end. Chefing is a very difficult job and high pressure. And so much organization needed. But while I was working as a chef, I met someone who I thought well, who did change my life. Yep. Um and I was a single mum. How old was your daughter at the time? She was three. Um Michael and I had been friends for ten years before we got together. We met through cooking and he um whisked me away from my horrible existence, and I thought that all my dreams had come true. Oh romantic comedy. Yes, and then it kind of started unraveling.
SPEAKER_01How soon into the relationship? It sounds like a romantic relationship at the start. He whisked you off. It was charismatic.
SPEAKER_03He was like a, you know, Viking knight in shining armor? I don't think well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Did he have a ship or a ship or a No, he had lots of tattoos. So um how soon into the relationship did things start to um feel a bit different and unusual and not not work so well?
SPEAKER_03Reasonably quickly. He was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes just before we got together. And so How old was he? He was 34.
SPEAKER_01It's late. And that is a life-changing diagnosis to Totally. Could you explain how? Um the impacts to him?
SPEAKER_03Not that he accepted that these were the impacts, but you have to change your lifestyle for type 1 diabetes. It's basically not having any control over your blood sugar. And monitoring is the only way that you have any control. And it's multiple times a day. Multiple times a day. He would have at least five injections a day. And he should have been checking his sugars before he drove and before he did anything, really. What happens if your sugars are too low or too high? Too high, and you become really agitated, angry, aggressive. Not not everyone, maybe. I don't know. This was our experience. Um he would lose his temper. And I'd worked in the kitchen with him and knew that that was not his normal personality. When he got low, when he got really low, he would have grandma's seizures.
SPEAKER_01That would be confronting.
SPEAKER_03Which was pretty scary. Just a full collapse onto the floor. Shaking, all of that stuff. In fact, the first one he had, he stopped breathing. Oh gosh. Thank God my stepdad was there. Yeah. Because he knew what to do. Yeah. And is this when you had your baby together? I was actually 30 34 weeks pregnant with my youngest at the time. The f for the first seizure.
SPEAKER_01It's stressful dealing with that.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I felt like the floor was collapsing underneath me. And all of a sudden, this six foot four Viking saviour was laying on the floor, completely incapacitated, didn't even know what year it was, and didn't know who I was.
SPEAKER_02It's very stressful.
SPEAKER_03It was yeah, it was pretty full on. Especially being heavily pregnant. Yeah. And I was having Braxton Hicks in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03So he's having a seizure, but you're possibly going into labour at the same time. The Ambo is saying to me, Can you try and like don't go there? There's no space in here.
SPEAKER_02But can you rewind and just set a little bit more context for that? Because this wasn't your first baby. No, it's Michael. So there is an extra added layer here, isn't there?
SPEAKER_03There is. So um I had been married previously to someone who was very bad for me, and I had my first daughter with him. So I can't regret that decision because otherwise I wouldn't have her. But nothing else good came from that situation. I was very much under his control. He kind of had distanced me from my family and my friends. The flags of coercive control. Totally. So by the time I left that, I was a bit of a train wreck.
SPEAKER_01Um And that's why Michael was like a knight and shiny.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And someone that I trusted.
SPEAKER_01I'd known him for so long. And did he sweep you up and just say, I've got you. Oh well, how did the romance start?
SPEAKER_03I missed his 34th birthday. He had just moved to the hills from Elwood.
SPEAKER_02The hills are like the Danny Dong Rangers of Victoria for anyone listening outside the state or country. Yeah. Which we are sitting in right now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We just call them the hills. Gorgeous. One who lives here knows the other hills. Yeah. So we were supposed to come up for his birthday party, which was also a kind of housewarming party. And I had walked out, well, actually no, I had run away at five o'clock in the morning to my mum's and missed the party. So I rang him the following week and apologized and said, you know, I'm s really sorry I missed your party, but I broke up with Troy and I'm living at mum's. And he was there the next morning. He was ready and waiting. Yeah. He said he was sitting in the bank and he fell off his chair.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So even though you'd had a friendship for ten years, when did he realise he had feelings for you?
SPEAKER_03Well, he says that he always saw me as a bit of a party girl when we were working together, and I actually shared a house with him for a while as well. And were you a party girl? Uh yeah, a little bit. That's what you do in your twenties. Yeah, definitely. And I lived in St Kilda. What you know, yeah, of course. I had to be a party girl. Um So was he waiting for you to mature? I don't think he was waiting for me, but I remember he came around to see me just after I had Steph, my eldest. And he said that in that moment his idea of me completely changed. I'd gone from, you know, kind of fun to go out with and have a few drinks with to all of a sudden someone that he said he walked out of the house saying, Oh, I wish I could find a girl like that to marry.
SPEAKER_02Hmm. That's nice. But you didn't know there were any feelings between the two of you when you left your first part.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, no. And and I I mean I had a crush on Michael the minute I met him. When he walked into the kitchen the first time, I nearly fell over. And he was he was so nice, and he was so nice to work with. I used to write all the rosters and I used to roster both of us on every Sunday, and he's like, What's the deal? And I was like, But I like working with you.
SPEAKER_02I have a secret crush that I can tell you about.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you got together, and then how long after did you like you obviously discussed having children together? Yes.
SPEAKER_03I had said to him Steph was nearly four, and I had said that it was always my dream to have four children, ironically. And he was up for that. He wanted kids too. He had actually had lost pregnancies with an ex-partner. Okay. Um traumatic. Very traumatic. An ex-partner who I was friends with as well. So our lives were so intertwined it was quite bizarre. But yeah, we wanted to have a baby. So we pretty much just didn't use contraception from the minute we were together. So it happened quickly.
SPEAKER_01Yep. And he had already been diagnosed with type 1 diabetes by then. Yeah, he was adjusting to his life.
SPEAKER_03Well, no, he was ignoring that. Yeah. He was in denial about the diagnosis? Totally in denial. And when you are f when you're first diagnosed, because it's an autoimmune, when it's that kind of I think it's always autoimmune, but there's a bit of a honeymoon period. So your pancreas kind of will continue making insulin for a bit, and then it kind of goes in and out. So sometimes he was fine, other times he wasn't fine, and when he wasn't fine, he didn't realise he wasn't fine. But you could read the sign. Oh yeah. Absolutely. He'd be sweating and yeah.
SPEAKER_02And did you get frustrated with him for not managing his diabetes?
SPEAKER_03Oh goodness me. Yes. Yes. He didn't manage anything. Right. He was still chefing when we got together, and eventually he had to stop doing that because it just was not feasible. He was having seizures, he couldn't eat when he needed to eat.
SPEAKER_02Um So the first seizure set off. No, that was a later seizure. Oh he seized early several. Right. So this is before you were pregnant with your youngest. He was having seizures already. No. Okay.
SPEAKER_03But he But he was having episodes, so he couldn't work reliably in the kitchen. Right. He wasn't having seizures. He was having episodes. Episodes. I don't even know what you call them. Like lows and highs. Yes, true. So he was close to having a seizure. I didn't know that you could have seizures. Right. But he would be just I remember I'd have to drive and pick him up from work. He couldn't drive. He couldn't he was kind of out of it. Okay. Um he was very lucky that he worked with a couple of older women that really looked after him at the time.
SPEAKER_02Why do you think he was in such denial? Like why did he not just say, well, this is what I've I know it's not easy news to take, but this is what I have now, and I have to manage it responsibly or he never liked being told what to do. He was always a bit rebellious. Sheffing was a lot of his identity, right? Yeah. And so when it started to impact his work, he didn't see that he needed to change his lifestyle in order to get back to work.
SPEAKER_03No. And I think that maybe that was the beginning of his mental health decline.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03The fact that he just thought, well, this is this is just how it is now. Rather than being proactive, he was very reactive.
SPEAKER_02Everything he knew about himself was changing. He was not accepting that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03This was all while you were new. In a relationship. Um Yeah, and then quite quickly pregnant.
SPEAKER_02Right. Okay, so you're pregnant together. He's working as a chef at this time or he's like. Yeah, but he was still working as a chef. Okay.
SPEAKER_03And then tell us about that pregnancy. So I was feeling pretty confident. My first pregnancy was very easy. I clocked up a whole two and a half hours of labour. Um my mum walked into the room afterwards and said, I told you it was easy. Oh wow. I'm not sure that I'd agree with you.
SPEAKER_02Banned from any labour ward.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Uh I used to get told to shut up in mother's group c you know, I wasn't qualified. Everything was going along swimmingly, except I'm pretty sure I remember Michael came home one night and he'd been at the McCorbot and he'd had twelve pints of Guinness, which when you're That's a lot. That's a lot for any person. But when you're a diabetic That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01That's the kind of behaviour that And without food, you're risking your life, basically. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So you were attuned to the the changes in his personality. And obviously you might have drawn that to his attention, but did that not go so well? No. He would get very frustrated with me.
SPEAKER_02Your stress levels must have been very heightened if you were constantly worrying about him. Oh you already had a child. Yeah. And then you're pregnant. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And it was like having a third child. Third child, totally. During the 20-week ultrasound with that pregnancy, they picked up a bunch of defects. The first thing they noticed was a bilateral cleft palate, and I could I could see on the scenographer's face straight away that something was wrong. Oh gosh, that feeling. I don't think Michael was aware though, because he didn't maybe didn't know what to look for, or I don't know. But yeah, he had heart defects and all kinds of stuff, which meant that he was incompatible with life, is the term they use. Gosh, isn't that just feels so inhumane, doesn't it? So inhumane. Yeah, absolutely. And so then I had to have genetic counselling and all that kind of stuff. Um, which was I guess a bit eye-opening because you know, you're kind of in this situation where you're so sad and worried about what's going to happen with your baby, but then someone's talking to you about the impact that you know, if this baby could live, this is how it would impact your other children. And you know, that'd be any other thing. Oh my god, and there'd be surgeries and there'd be this and there'd be that. In the end, I didn't have a decision because he couldn't uh oxygenate his own blood. His blood was pumping the wrong way around his body. So at twenty-three weeks they induced me. And yeah, that was that is incredibly devastating. It was crazy. It's the only only um birth that my mum was at. And I said to her after I had my third you should have come for a happy one, she said you didn't need me for the happy ones.
SPEAKER_01That's beautiful. How beautiful sounds like she's a woman. So how do you grieve having given birth to a baby that won't survive?
SPEAKER_03You named him, didn't you? Yes, he was alive for about twenty minutes. Cooper. Uh yeah, and I think he spent about twenty-four hours in the room with us. So my family came and got to hold him and he was tiny, he was only half a kilo. Yeah. Okay. Very small. Yeah. It was And how was Michael? A mess. Yep.
SPEAKER_01Because that was his third child that he'd lost during pregnancy or fifth, actually. Oh fifth. Oh, okay. So that must have had a big impact on him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And he was very much I mean, same as the denial with the diabetes, he was very much about you know, I'd say, do you need to talk to someone? Or what's someone else going to be able to say that's gonna change how I feel? But manning counselling is a struggle.
SPEAKER_02Totally. I think perhaps the newer generations are better at this, but certainly. Maybe. Some. There's a few out there, I think, that are into it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Was he able to show up for you and give you what you needed in that briefing process?
SPEAKER_03He was just pretty much disengaged, lost in his own kind of emotions and in his own head. For me, I felt like I still had to get up every morning and get Steph to Kinder and my life went on. And although he was part of that, it wasn't enough, I guess, to keep him going. He was still working as a show. He was still working. And his diabetes was getting more and more out of control. Getting more and more out of control. You have another child together. Yep, so very quickly got pregnant again, which was not the plan. Were you petrified in that pregnancy and would have just been uh yeah. And I had to go into m the Monash fetal diagnostic unit for all of my checkups and I just was on eggshells. Yeah, of course. Every single scan or test. And then she was perfect and easy. I bet she slept too. She did. And she is Maya. She did sleep for the first six months. And then she stopped for the next 20 years. Then they put the batteries in, as my family like to say.
SPEAKER_02Not usually six months later. Yeah. They're sleepy in hospital. Then you get them home and they screen their lungs out.
SPEAKER_03Oh, she was hungry. She came out purple and angry that she wasn't being fed. And how was Michael? He loved her. And in many, many ways he was uh, you know, a great dad. And actually talking to Steph, she had a very difficult relationship with him as a step as a stepfather. But when she read my story, she said to me, I cried. And I said, Oh, really? Why? And she said, I cried when one of the funny stories that I tell. And I said, What made you cry about that? And she said, Because I remember that we used to have some really, really good times. Oh. Wow. And I was just so touched that um you know, I think it's her memories.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, actually.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, delete some good stuff. Yeah. And you forget that you had it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How wonderful that you wrote your story.
SPEAKER_02The girls were always really close. Yeah. What kind of father was he to her to Steph? Was he strict? Was he fine?
SPEAKER_03Not strict. Um inappropriate, I'm gonna say. Yeah. He Michael was very funny with jokes, not in other ways.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Can you give us an example? I have read had the benefit of reading your story. I think a lot of it is around music and musical tastes and would you like to uh share one example of that?
SPEAKER_03Well, that was actually what made Steph uh cry was she said she read about the time that I had walked into the kitchen and Michael quickly turned the music off. And I think Maya was young, four maybe three or four. And I looked at them and I could tell there was something not right. They're up to something. Maya started singing. She's saying, I I've got a terrible voice, so won't sing. But she started singing, The roof is on fire. And I just I stopped dead in my tracks, just like, oh my god, no, please, please. She knew I was coming. Don't let her know the next line. And I looked at Michael, I said, if she knows the next line, you are in so much trouble. We don't need this. We don't need this house, let the motherfucker burn. I was like, oh my god.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it would sound cute coming out of a four-year-old. It's completely inappropriate.
SPEAKER_03And so cute when she repeats it at kinda. Yeah, yeah. And then you're the the mother who needs to be pulled aside. They're sending children's services around to visit me. There was a lot of that kind of stuff. He was very inappropriate. He his jokes were not age appropriate. Well, not anything appropriate really.
SPEAKER_02Not not any audience appropriate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01But he'd kind of lost his way, or was losing his way by then. Yeah. So you had a lot going on. You had two kids, you have well affurred with Michael and his medical condition. Uh how was that impacting you as a person? How were you showing up as a person?
SPEAKER_03I think I was so um busy and so I don't even know. Just one foot in front of the other.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah. And you didn't really have a partner who supported even logistically, I guess. Yeah. At one point I was working four jobs, I think. Gosh. So he he stopped working as a chef.
SPEAKER_03Was that after an injury? That was he stopped, completely stopped after after he had the first seizure, which is when I was pregnant with Maya. Okay. Yep. So he ne he never went back. He kind of worked doing labouring and other stuff. But was there a finger injury? That was at home. Oh, okay. Yes. So I don't think a lot of people realise that type dumb type one diabetes can really affect your immune system. Um amongst other things. And yeah. I he came home from work one Friday and decided to mow the lawn and he chopped his finger off. Wow. Yeah. Yuck. And out. Yeah. Yeah. It was horrendous. And I remember the nurse at the hospital said to me, Oh, um, our first weekend warrior. And I said, What do you mean? She said, Oh, we get them every weekend, men. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Fixing things and doing injuries. Also, he's lost a finger. He's unable to work as a chef. His diabetes is really ramping up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Infections. Yeah. So after he ha they've fixed the finger, or three fingers it actually was. Um Which is a really simple procedure, apparently. Did you pick up the finger from the grass? I think the chickens ate the finger.
SPEAKER_02But I could be wrong. Organic. They did call it laughing now. No. Just something else to manage.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So he was in hospital just overnight and I went to pick him up and they said, Oh, you can take him home. And I said, Has he had IV antibiotics? They said, No, he doesn't need them. It's just a flap repair. I said, He's typon diabetic. He needs antibiotics. So no antibiotics. They sent him home. And when he went back, the first time was fine. The second time for dressing change, he had osteomyelitis. So the infection had gone into his bones. Oh gosh. And within three weeks, he was um yeah, in Marinda Hospital with his kidneys failing.
SPEAKER_02And how old was Maya at this time? She was in PrEP. Okay. So a few years fast forward. He's working odd jobs, his mental health is also declining, accidents are happening, infections are happening. You are the chronic illness manager.
SPEAKER_03Yes. By that stage I was studying nutritional medicine in the hope that maybe I could manage his diabetes that way.
SPEAKER_02Wow. I mean, that could be seen as a romantic gesture. Or just a very practical solution to the problem that you were having.
SPEAKER_03I was so out of control. I felt so out of control that I just was grasping at anything, I think.
SPEAKER_01And you're in survival mode. Yeah. That'll like you had no chance of stopping and thinking what's going on here. How can I w was it spiral to reset?
SPEAKER_03Very much a spiral. But you sort of But while I was in it, I didn't see it. You know, I was just trying to get through thinking I kept thinking, oh, it's gonna get easier, things will get better. And they didn't. They didn't. Which kind of takes us to that day, I guess. Yeah. I came home from the supermarket, the kids were at home. I drove down my street, and there was a Divi van at the top of my driveway. Police car, for anyone who doesn't know what that is. Uh uh. Yep. Um and what what did you think when you saw that? I knew that it was something about Michael. What did you think it was? I wasn't I wasn't sure, but he had walked out the night before. He hadn't come home. After an argument or was it? Not an argument. He had just been really down for about two weeks. I was reading a book to Meyer and he came down and said, I'm going out for a bit. Okay. And I he walked off and I yelled out, Are you okay? And he closed the door.
SPEAKER_01That morning he hadn't come home?
SPEAKER_03No. So um but I'd called his work and they said, Oh yeah, he's here. Right. So you at seven o'clock assumed that he was there and everything was okay. Because he wasn't answering his phone? He'd left his phone at home. Okay. Which he'd never done. Okay. Um so I I hadn't slept much that night. I was really anxious and I think he st was starting at six o'clock in the morning, so I rang, you know, rang early and assumed he was there. They confirmed he was at work. So I went off and dropped the kids at school and did all the things that I had to do. And then when I got back from the supermarket, I knew straight away that there was something wrong. Because it was after school that by now? Yeah. So I'd assumed he'd been at work, yeah. So uh I parked in the drive I walked yeah, drove down the driveway and parked in our carport and walked up towards the police. Um they were getting out of their car. They asked if I was Kylie Eklund. My stomach was like seriously dragging behind me. The kids were standing on the front landing outside the door because the police had actually knocked on the door previously and said they needed to speak to me. And I just remember looking at their faces and thinking, oh my god, what are they gonna say to me? How am I gonna how am I gonna get through whatever whatever it was, whether whether it was an accident or um so they I confirmed, yes, yep, come Kylie, and they s asked me if I was the wife of Michael Eklund. Said yes. Um and they said, Oh, we have s some news about your husband. Is there someone you can call for support? So straight away I knew that it was bad. Really bad. Um so I called a girlfriend and she was just around the corner, she came over. Um they spoke to her, I think, before the before they came back into before they came into the house, and then she took the kids and I sat with the police. I've I just remembered I was so I don't think my adrenal system has ever worked that way before or again. Um I kept apologizing to the police. I felt so bad that they had to have this awful job. Even in that moment, your empathy was for them. I just was looking at them thinking, oh my god, how what an awful job. Yeah. How do you do this? The news was that they'd found Michael dead in his car that morning. Well, late in the morning. But not an accident. Not an accident. No. So he had been found by someone who was out walking, the doors were locked, um there was vomit on the seat next to him, um and the police had had to break the window to get in. But he'd been dead for some time. They didn't give me a lot of information about what else they found. Um I'm not sure why, I'm assuming that is what they do. Yep. Um and told me that because it was unexpected, that it there'll be a coronal inquest and We have a coroner sitting right next to a former coroner.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So um I can't even imagine what your body was doing in that moment. Like your brain must have been firing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was like someone had sucked all the air out of the room, you know, that kind of just um pain in my chest. Like my heart was breaking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like you were having a heart attack yourself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Awful. And then telling the kids was the second most awful thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I just what what did you tell the kids? How how how old were they firstly?
SPEAKER_03Okay, so Maya was eight and Steph was twelve. Um Maya just burst into tears. She was um sobbing and Steph ran off down the hallway and th I went to find her. I said, What's going on? She said, It's my fault. Oh no. I said, What do you mean? She said last night when Michael told me off, I wished he was dead. I said, Oh gosh, the poor thing. Honey, everyone thinks that about their parents. Yeah. Sorry, mum and dad, if me. Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_02We've all had those thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. Um poor child. So yeah. How how did you like what words did you use to tell the girls? Uh 'cause I know that you're not supposed to mince your words or something. No, and I didn't. It's confusing if you say he's gone into another room or he's passed away even.
SPEAKER_03No, I just said it's um Dad it's dad, they found him.
SPEAKER_01He he's dead. So sorry for your loss.
unknownThank you.
SPEAKER_01So that's a really big moment that once again life-changing as if you hadn't had a hope already. But this one absolutely took the cake. What what steps occurred then? Like how do you actually pick yourself up and function, or did you not function for a while?
SPEAKER_03I mean, you don't often have a choice when there's too much. No people rely on it. It's very much that was like uh the m most pivotal point in my life. Um I the first probably two weeks, I kind of like when I think about them, it's like I'm looking at them underwater. Yeah. It's so kind of hazy around the edges and Did you have support? Heaps. Yep. Yeah. I was very lucky.
SPEAKER_01Um But I guess trauma plays a big role in your memory and how you remembering back.
SPEAKER_03When I sat down and started writing what I remembered, I'd ask other people and they'd be like, that's not what happened. What? Are you sure? I have such a really, you know, strong memory of that. No, no, no. I'd forgotten actually who was even there when they told when the-plus. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Your brain would have just gone into freeze mode.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Whatever it did.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Just to function.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02No one I mean, no one's expecting that news. Or were were you always in fear of Michael doing something impulsive or dangerous that would cost his life, even though he wasn't um managing his diabetes? Was he reckless?
SPEAKER_03He was definitely a risk taker. I was always on edge about the diabetes and about the health. I could see it was declining. It was like my worst fear. Right.
SPEAKER_02Had he ever talked to you about I can't go on like this? Nope.
SPEAKER_03Suicide crossed my mind when they after they told me. Who told you? After the after the police told me. I thought, hmm.
SPEAKER_02So they didn't outright say he's taken his own life. They said he's been found dead in his car. Yeah. And they didn't tell you how. And you probably didn't think to ask specifics because you were still processing.
SPEAKER_03I think I asked whether he'd had a seizure. Right. Because I thought that there's a vomit. If they had have described to me what they found, I would have known straight away what had gone on because there were seven empty pens of insulin on the seat next to him. Um that he has deliberately injected to end his life.
SPEAKER_01But that you didn't know that until No, no. Uh months. And when when did you find out?
SPEAKER_03When I got the autopsy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So what did the autopsy report? The autopsy reported that the amount of insulin in his blood was so much more than they'd ever found in an overdose before that it was it was undeniable. People still say to me, couldn't it have been a mistake? I'm like, no, no, no. You don't need to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Incontrovertible evidence. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And that's what eventually the coroner found.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So could there be a way that his, you know, brain function because of the insulin made him make those decisions? I guess we'll never know. Uh yeah. And you've been through all these questions in your own mind. He didn't let her know. And over and over again. Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_01And that's one of the difficulties about suicide, isn't it? Um, that we, as people who are functioning in the world, can't possibly put our ourselves into the person in an empathetic way to understand what was going through their mind.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_01And you can drive yourself mad trying to imagine that. And I I have had a friend who suicided, so it's nothing like having a partner, of course, but you do go mad trying to understand what possibly could have been going through their mind. And it's a fruitless exercise at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02I think it is.
SPEAKER_01Just it is was it is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And not only is there devastation, but I would imagine, was there some anger there? Were you angry at Michael for leaving? I was so angry. Yes. Um, which feels like a fairly normal response, but maybe people don't talk about that.
SPEAKER_03Every time I had to drag all the rubbish bins up that steep driveway, I'd be like, damn you, Michael. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of things where I would feel really like, you know, we made this decision to do this together to, you know, yeah have this family together, and now you've left the responsibility on me. There was a lot the emotions were like insane. The the shame which for for you, you felt shame. Oh, absolutely. I think there's so much shame around suicide in our Yeah, the stigma is Yeah. Um I'm sure he won't mind me telling this story, but my my stepdad was always really angry about Michael and thought that what he did to he you know, he thought he did it to me was really unfair. And um it wasn't until he read my book, he said, you know, I always thought it was such a um weak, kind of easy way out for him. And now I realize that actually that wasn't the case.
SPEAKER_02So just just to clarify, Kylie has written down her story in a a memoir, yet to be published. It's it's it's a fantastic way to process all those feelings and thoughts. And like you said, so much came up for you that you didn't even realize until you started to write it down. Yeah. But what that process did was brought empathy for Michael. Yes. But that was a process, obviously, not just from writer. So what how did you move into a space where you could forgive Michael? Or have you forgiven him? Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I've definitely forgiven him. Initially I was angry, and then I went through all of the, you know, stuff. Stages of up and down and up and down. And then I started walking. Leaving forest. So I started walking in the forest, and a friend said, Let's do this challenge. It's like, oh, okay. So we walked Oxfam and it was gr it was perfect timing for me. I think, you know, walking with women who were happy to listen to me and just listening to them talk about their lives. And there was a whole bunch of us that did it. So lots of different opportunities to process, I guess. And I used to feel I used to feel like I would walk in the forest and dump everything in there. And I'm sure the forest uh cleaned itself somehow.
SPEAKER_01Well a um therapeutic and the power of human connection and women particularly face women and nature such a healing process.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Before you had the evidence, did you believe Michael had taken his own life or had did you tell yourself I think he's had a seizure or I think there's some been a medical episode here?
SPEAKER_03It was a bit of a ping-pong match inside my head. I think probably deep, deep, deep down, I knew that it was suicide, but I was kind of hopeful that they would find something that would refute that and give me something just uh something little that, you know, something else was going on for him at that time.
SPEAKER_02So you're just getting through life, then you get invited by a cousin to come to Brazil. I mean, please can we all have a cousin in Brazil? It sounds like a trip of a laughter.
SPEAKER_03It was quite amazing. So I was going through the process of all of the paperwork, which for anyone who's lost someone, it's they'll know that it is an absolute nightmare. The bureaucracy is to go through the coronal process and the coronial process, and Michael didn't have a will and all of that stuff, so it was nuts. And then my cousin said, come to Brazil. So I had to apply for passports for my kids. So one of my kids had a dad was living in Queensland at the time. So trying to get signatures for passports and stuff was difficult. And then I had to get a passport for Maya, and um but no death certificate, no anything. So it was really difficult to um to get that organized and visas and everything. And I at one point thought, oh my god, what are you doing? You just okay, you're in a really hard situation. How are you gonna make it better? I know, make it more difficult. Yes, that's fine. Fill out more paperwork.
SPEAKER_02That'll be great. Travel alone with two kids.
SPEAKER_03Yes. No. It's that thing, you know, that I think it's the net um busyness in the brain, it just necessarily needs to be, you know, working overtime to not think about other stuff. So you manage to get Myra passport? We got passports. We got to Brazil and it was amazing. My cousin had an apartment between Ipanema and Copacabana. Shut up.
SPEAKER_02Can we go? I want to sing that song. Yeah. Can we do part two of this? In Brazil? Yes, he still has a house there.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, six weeks of nurturing. Yeah, my family all my cousins were there, so uh in that side of the family, and my auntie and uh my cousin had a nanny, so I kind of had some mental space to walk and not have the responsibility of kids for a little bit. Yeah. Um and what a kind, kind cousin of my own. Yes. He is very much so. And I guess I it gave me the space to start really thinking and thinking about where my life was and what I wanted, and I realized that I had been so fearful of things happening to me. And then when the worst thing happened, I was okay. I was still, you know, this is six months later, and I'm standing here looking at the Christ the Redeemer that I've always wanted to see. And my kids are okay, and I'm okay, and life goes on.
SPEAKER_01I wanted to ask you about Christ the Redeemer, the statue in Brazil that sort of looms large over the city. What was it about that that changed you? There was something about you speak about awe and wonder book. And how did Awe and Wonder help you begin to heal? You actually wrote something really beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Did I? Easier to read it out.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02I loved what you said about that.
SPEAKER_03Standing before Christ the Redeemer in Brazil, I look into the unseen concrete eyes and resolve that fear has been crippling and preventing me from experiencing amazing things. It has robbed me of realizing my fullest potential. I vow to no longer let fear hold me back. This epiphany feeds my sense of adventure. I left though. Definitely did.
SPEAKER_02Well you could see the joy and adventure and life again. But what was it about?
SPEAKER_03That statue.
SPEAKER_02It's very imposing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03And it looks like it shouldn't be possible. It's the engineering of that statue is insane. And I used to cry when I saw I don't know why it uh I'm not religious. It's not a religious thing. It's a spiritual mind, though. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a I had said to Michael y years before, I'd seen a TV show about it and said, you know, I've always wanted to see that. I was crying. I always won I've always wanted to see that. And I'd had pinned my life or had this idea of how my life was going to be, and that was not going to be a part of my life. And then all of a sudden I'm on the other side of the planet standing in front of it, going, Oh my God, my life is my choice. I can I can make these decisions to do these things. I don't have to just accept what happens to me. How prophetic. Yes.
SPEAKER_01When you think about that now. Do you think in a way you were almost having um thoughts of the future that you didn't even know you you were going to end up there? Yeah, in a psychic way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Which is possibly why when you got there, it was a profound so profound. Yes. How you viewed that prior to that happening. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Definitely. You actually wrote there are the years in which I spend a lot of time and effort rebuilding myself from being half of a whole to being enough. I remember the things that made me me before I was just a mum. And also just a wife and a caregiver and a household manager and a chronic illness manager. And a nutritionist.
SPEAKER_03And a Yeah.
SPEAKER_01One of the other things before we move away from Brazil was the awe and wonder. And you also talked about a moment on the beach.
SPEAKER_03The sunset.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Can you tell? Yeah, absolutely. Um so on the end of Ipanema, there's a hill called a proador, which um separates those two beaches. So it kind of juts out a jutting hill. And Brazil's very civilised, you know, you go to the beach and you can buy cocktails on the beach. They actually walk around and sign me up. Yeah, yeah. Um so I had my Caparinha and the whole family had gone down to watch the sunset. And I knew we were going to watch the sunset, but I don't think I actually knew what this was going to look like. So we were all sitting on the sand and looking out over the water. There was kids playing in the beach, lots of people sitting on the hill watching. And as the sun got closer and closer to the horizon, everyone kind of became quite quiet. And then just as it hit the horizon, everybody started cheering. And I was blown away and they yelling out, Linda, Linda, which means beautiful. And they're clapping, and I was just like, oh my God, this is this is what life is about. This is the sun sets every day. Every day.
SPEAKER_02Imagine going celebrating that beauty in the every day.
SPEAKER_03And someone said to me, you know, we're so lucky in Brazil, it doesn't matter whether we're rich or poor because we have the beach and we have the sunset.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So going back to um that moment on the beach uh with beauty and awe. I I'm stuck on this. I'm just curious. That's okay. It's actually found, it's a healing moment. It's a moment where you change your life.
SPEAKER_03It's actually what made me write my book was when I listened to Phosphorescence by Julia Baird. And she talks about how beauty and awe changed her life and her direction and everything. And I remember listening to her story thinking, Oh, that's like me. Oh, I'd already adventure I'd already chosen Joy and Adventure, but listening to her, I was like, oh yeah, that's something that not everyone does that, I don't think. But everyone can do that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so that that's that's not seeing a psychologist. That's not going to a coach. That is an empowered moment that just comes over you because you're quiet, you're present in the moment, you've had the worst that's happened to you. And it's a profound moment because it's an awakening that you didn't have before that moment. So can you tell us a little bit about the awakening of and the empowering of yourself?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That was an unexpected result of what I went through. I um had been scared, fearful of everything from the minute I was born, I'm pretty sure. Nightmares, like horrible nightmares. Really, really um thought that I was not built for purpose. I felt very um insecure about my abilities. Um I remember thinking before I had kids, my worst nightmare was, you know, I don't want to psychologically damage any any children, ironically.
SPEAKER_02Who for m my cousin's 21st, she just gave them money and said this will be for the psychologist that you'll inevitably need. But yes, all the things you feared and then the worst of them happened.
SPEAKER_03The worst of them happened. And, you know, I mean, of course it's impacted my kids psychologically, and of course it's, you know, all of those things. But actually it pushed us into a position where we had to f dig deeper and find something else. And the something else was amazing.
SPEAKER_02You did say that you're you became more open and honest with your kids and that deepened your relationship with them, but then you said some people found that shift in you hard to adjust to. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
SPEAKER_03I had um I I don't know, lost to a lot of friends is not the right way to do it. And in some cases it was very gradual.
SPEAKER_02I mean, people are not good at dealing with death in no circumstance. They don't know what to say, people keep their distance.
SPEAKER_03I think some people really struggle with single people too. You know, I always I remember a lot of times sitting in a room with lots of friends and thinking I'm surrounded by people and I'm lonely. Yes. I just d I feel so disconnected.
SPEAKER_02So you've reconnected with your kids. Why would other people find that sort of deepening relationship problematic?
SPEAKER_03I don't think it was my relationship with my kids that was problematic. It was the fact that I was by myself and that I was potentially that I was changing. I wasn't what they expected anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, and from reading your book, I think it's because you started to be more intentional about the way you lived and how you spent your time and who you spent it with. Yeah. And that can be really confronting to people because I've also gone through that. And when you start to be really intentional and say, I don't want that in my life, or I'm really focused on being a good person, living at my highest level.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All that shit, gossip and all the stuff just it fades away. It's not relevant anymore. Yeah. That is confronting to a normal person. Normal person. Well, would you agree with that? Once you start to have some agency about so before all this happened, you were just one step in front of the other, surviving, coping. And suddenly you've got this empowerment where you just go, you give no fucks anymore. Yep or you give totally. You give fucks about what matter. Yep. And you give less fucks about what don't matter. Yep. Would you agree with that? Totally.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03I I had one moment where I was walking and I thought, I could buy a caravan or a Volkswagen combi and take the kids. Oh my god, I could just travel around the world. I could sell my house. I don't have to run this by anyone. I can do whatever I want. And it was just a liberating.
SPEAKER_01It's so liberating. Yeah. It's a huge breakthrough moment that people go to therapy and coaching for for years and years. And you had it very quickly, which is almost a gift, right? And you do talk about that as a gift. And Oprah, who I love, yes, talks about we find um lessons in our challenges. You had this profound moment. You saw the sunrise and fall, you saw the Christ, the Redeemer, you had time and presence to remember who you were. Do you think that's when the lesson dropped? Why you're here? Or what was the lesson? What was the lesson? Would you be that person, the person you are now without that? Definitely not definitely not.
SPEAKER_03Which I think is why I eventually came to a point of gratitude about what had happened. And people still ask me, you know, would you change it if you could? No.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well.
SPEAKER_03Not in a million years. And I mean he he made the decision. Yes. That was his decision. But I couldn't be where I am now without being through that.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's probably, you know, the spiritual people talk about a dark night of the soul, we go through the mush to flourish and be a butterfly or a lotus or whatever it is, the analogy. But it seems like your experience has done that to you.
SPEAKER_03Yes. I like to think of it like the um the Japanese w the way Japanese fix pottery with kinsugi. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Just explain what that is.
SPEAKER_03I think people will know, but kinsugi is when a piece of pottery is broken and they fix it with gold. It's a very slow process. It takes you know, to do it properly, but it will take more than a month to fix something. Um and the Japanese believe that it becomes more beautiful because of the history. So And its imperfection. Imperfection and that yeah. Being being broken being broken has its beauty too.
SPEAKER_02Totally. So that's a really good segue into how you became obsessed with Japan. Were you obsessed with Japan like early in life, or was this something was this an aftermind?
SPEAKER_03Always a bit obsessed with Japan. Always really loved Japanese culture. I mean, you guys are sitting in my office. You c how many Yes.
SPEAKER_02It's got Japanese sliding doors, what are they called? Shoji.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02Shoji springs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I feel like I should have my shoes off. And we should be having a tea ceremony.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. Macha. Um I both my parents were always interested in Japanese culture as well.
SPEAKER_02Had you been to Japan? Never. So Brazil was your first overseas trip with the girls?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I'd been to Thailand and I'd been to Bali. But that was the extent of my overseas travels.
SPEAKER_02And um So you had this amazing epiphany where I can actually choose now. Yep. And then you came home from Brazil and then you started to travel with your girls, and you discovered Japan, and then you started learning Japanese. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_03Yep. So I said to the girls, we are gonna go traveling anywhere in the world. Write down three the three places you most want to go to, and I'm gonna write down mine as well. And um so we all wrote down three, and Japan was the one thing that was on all of our lists. We had been watching a lot of anime and stuff like that. The girls had both been kind really getting into that. Um and so I booked tickets and we went for a month. My mum was horrified. She said, But you don't know anyone and you can't speak the language. And I said, Hmm? And she said, Is it but will you be okay? I said, I don't know. We'll find out, won't we?
SPEAKER_02The worst thing has happened to me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I survived it. Yeah. So I know that I I know I'll be okay. It's pretty brave, but I understand where it comes from.
SPEAKER_03Um we had a ball. It was such a it was an amazing trip, and I had many moments over there where I just that that awe and wonder, that country has a lot of that to offer. And didn't you say something about you felt like you were coming home? That's incredible. Is always it's such a strange experience. I think I've been eight or nine times to Japan and I as soon as I kind of land in the street, and I feel like the piece of me that's missing when I'm that I've always felt is missing is not missing when I'm there.
SPEAKER_02Wow. It's beautiful, and I look forward to you being my tour guide.
SPEAKER_01In fact, you do tell a beautiful story about um a family that you uh went out of your way an Airbnb. Can you explain that lovely relationship that formed?
SPEAKER_03I was booking accommodation and I read about um a guest house in Kyoto that um was booked out when I was looking for accommodation in Kyoto. But a lot of the reviews had talked about how they had girls similar age to my girls, and um I just had this feeling that I had to go there. So I'd rearranged all of our other accommodations so I could go and stay there for four days. Mucky, the owner of the guest house and her daughters uh Chelsea and Lancy. I think Lancy spoke a little tiny bit of English, Chelsea spoke no English, Mucky speaks fantastic English and Chinese and Japanese and probably bits and pieces of other languages too. Um they were really welcoming. Maya started playing badminton with them, and all the kids were playing Mario Kart. And um I saw my kids just having this, you know, forming a relationship with kids that they couldn't even communicate with. Well, they could, just in different ways. With working with words. Um and so Mucky invited us out for parfait, and we walked through the streets of Gion, and I just felt this connection to this amazing woman. Um and I knew that we were gonna be friends. I just had this the instinct. Instinct. And I knew before I got there that it that was gonna be the case. I had to do it.
SPEAKER_01I had to do it. You've got a very strong intuitive sense about things. And you knew absolutely that you had to go and stay at the house no matter what, and it had to change your plans or whatever. So I love that you trust your intuition. Um, when did you start doing that and how do you know it's so powerfully um important to listen to that? Because it seems to have led you in the right direction sometimes. Not always. When you listen.
SPEAKER_03When I listen, when I'm yeah, when I'm in the right space to be able to pick it up. Um I don't think I trusted it until probably until after Japan. Really?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So it wasn't even after Michael died, like it wasn't.
SPEAKER_03No. Well close to I think it it that's it started developing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And was it because it was confirmed? You meeting Maki confirmed 100% that your intuition told you must go there. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And trusting your decisions as well and your choices and your ability to keep your girls safe and give them adventure and joy. Yep. Um, maybe it was believing in yourself a bit more too, like not just trusting your intuition, but Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Definitely a s um a sense that we were uh, you know, an un unstoppable trio. We were out there doing it and in, you know, really squeezing the most out of life.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So you've got this great connection to Japan. What did the Japanese culture teach you about society's beliefs about um suicide?
SPEAKER_03I don't think I had formally recognised that that was becoming a part of my understanding until I started writing. Um but Japanese I I'm obsessed with all things Japanese, but particularly history. I'm really interested in Japanese history. Um and the the samurai code, Bushido, they talk about um I don't know quite how to put it. It's uh like the kamikaze.
SPEAKER_02Oh, we'll get it transferred. Okay.
SPEAKER_01That's yeah, why they did what they did.
SPEAKER_03So it's an honourable It's an honourable death. Um Can you explain that? The Japanese don't have the same um religious beliefs that we do, that you know, taking your own life is a sin or it used to be a crime in um Western culture. Until the eighties in Australia, which really freaks me out. Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Till the eighties.
SPEAKER_03But then that's where the shop is. But they used to. And they'd take away people's property. Even if the you know, there was a wife and kids left, they'd t they'd take the property of the husband because he'd committed suicide. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02He just escaped all his responsibilities, so then we'll take it off the people he left behind. Yeah. To deter other people from doing it?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. That's why we're not allowed to say committed suicide anymore. We say suicide. Because they it's the committing That's the crime. So we don't that's why a lot of people we must not say committed suicide, any must say the person suicide. Yeah. So going back to Japan and the kamikazes, they don't have that stigma and that social um shame. Shame. No.
SPEAKER_03In fact, there's more shame to be caught or to lose. Um but going so when the ca when the samurai would be if they were caught, they would actually um it's pretty grim, but it's called sepiku, they would have a very ritualized suicide which they would perform in front of a whole bunch of people. And that was in order to retain their honour.
SPEAKER_02So reading about this gave you a new lens to look at suicide through.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So the history, it's also present in so much um of their literature and movies and the Japanese have very different tropes to us, and suicide is a really, really, really strong one.
SPEAKER_02And is there did I read correctly, that there's more than one word for suicide? There's multiple words.
SPEAKER_03Yes, like almost 30, I think, from memory. And the one the one that for me I like to use for Michael is jiketsu, which means self-determination, death by self-determination.
SPEAKER_02Right. He was determining his own future. Yep. Didn't want it taken away from him. Yeah. So Well, that's all we can think. We don't know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's going through his mind. I think I have to um explain the moment in the forest when I was writing um when I decided to sit down and write my story. I started writing and I kind of had no idea where I was going, and then I hit a complete brick wall. What am I writing about? Why am I writing this? And I was walking with my friend Sandy and I was explaining the block to her. And so we went on our usual walk around the forest, changed, you know, topics 57,000 times as women do when they're talking. And as we were walking out of the forest, it was so bizarre. We both looked at each other and we hadn't gone back to talk about the fact that I was, you know, at this impasse. We looked at each other and just went, he set me free. And she said exact at exactly the same time I did, she said, He set you free. And I said to her, That's what's missing from my writing. I haven't been looking at it through that lens. I'm writing it, and I can see that that's actually, you know, I'm growing and this stuff's happening, and after the spiral, then I'm kind of going the other way. And it wasn't until that moment that I realized, ah, okay. So that he gave you rock bottom because there's nowhere else to go from there.
SPEAKER_01But I right? Yeah. And but you're also self-determined because you're living the life that you want to live now. Yep. So in a way that you both kind of got there, but just different approaches.
SPEAKER_02Different approaches. Yep. I mean, that's a beautiful way to look at it because and also probably a challenging way to look at it. I think a lot of people not see suicide as someone setting them free. So I'm sure there's been pushback about that, perhaps. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's not that you want to struggle with you don't want to glorify suicide. No, certainly not. Most definitely not recommend it. But I can see if Michael could only see a future of, you know, managing or not managing as he was, and his identity was so intrinsically linked in, you know, being a strong or healthy man who was a chef and you know, vibrant and whatever, and then all of a sudden not feeling that way and looking at his wife and children thinking I can't provide for them properly. I d who knows? Like who knows what he was thinking. But I think it's very freeing for you to be able to instead of carrying that anger and devastation through your whole life. I mean, it will always be part of you. Yeah, definitely. Embracing it as a, okay, this is a liberation of me now. I I got to have Michael. I have Maya as a gift for Michael, and now my gift is to live my life fully with those children. Yes, most definitely. So did you go and learn Japanese? Did you decide to study the language? After how many times?
SPEAKER_03Oh, did you The first time I was there? I had booked my first class before I left Japan. Okay. Um committed. I wanted to understand it on a deeper level. I felt like, okay, this is amazing and I'm really loving it, but I want to actually understand what I'm looking at.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I booked myself into Japanese classes locally at home. Yep. Yep. And then what happened? What happened? And then I'm We know. I was learning for a few years. And then I met a very lovely man. In Japanese class? In Japanese class. Was he Japanese? No, he wasn't. He was Canadian.
SPEAKER_02Canadian, living in Melbourne, learning Japanese.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Okay. Yes. I interestingly had had a um a psychic tell me years before that I was going to meet a man, and she said, I can't work him out. It's like he's Japanese, but he's not.
SPEAKER_01Oh. Oh my god. Something about this. My intuition know something. What how old were you when she said that? Um was it after Michael?
SPEAKER_03It was after Michael, but it was before I went to Japan. Believe.
SPEAKER_02To get her name and number, don't we? Let's put her on the podcast. That is undeliver. So you're doing your writing class, you're not looking, you're not looking for a new relationship, I imagine.
SPEAKER_03No, I was. Way too busy and fulfilled. Yeah. I was I'd started writing, I'd started writing a blog about Japan. I'd started writing that as I was travelling, and then I decided that I loved doing it so much that I'd keep doing it when I wasn't travelling. And it was an opportunity to research things and understand things more deeply when I wasn't there or wasn't planning a trip. And yeah, I was never bored. Mmm. Didn't feel like I was missing any you know, missing anything from my life. And then yeah, one day I was sat across the table from this lovely Canadian that had just got back from Japan who asked me if I wanted to share a sake flight with him. What's that? Which is uh sake is the is an alcohol. Just yet three three little glasses of sake is called a flight.
SPEAKER_02Yep. It's not like sitting in first class drinking.
SPEAKER_03There's no first there's not there's no that's what I want it to be.
SPEAKER_01I want it to go on a plane and you just drink some. And I tell you, that ten hours to Japan absolutely make you button. It would. Um you shared a sake flight.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I I had m met him previous to that a couple of times. In class. In class. He had recently separated from his wife. And my teacher thought that maybe I could help cheer him up. The people we were sitting with actually at the at the it's it was a whole school lunch, said, How long have you guys been together? And we were like, What? Wow. But I connection and connection. Again, I knew I knew before I got to the lunch, just had this feeling. I think I told my mum, I said, I think I've met somebody. She said, Really? And I said, Yeah, I'll let you know after I have lunch with him. And I sat down and I remember looking at him, just going, Yep, this is it. This is my future. You might need to do classes in intuition, love your intuition.
SPEAKER_01So listening. How to listen to your intuition. This is about your favourite Japanese author, Murakami. And I was wondering if you could read your favourite quote.
SPEAKER_03Yes. So this is my favorite quote. It's actually from Stu's favourite book. Murakami says in Kafka on the shore, and once the storm is over, you won't remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won't even be sure whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain when you come out of the storm, you won't be the same person who walked in. That's what this storm is all about.
SPEAKER_01That's magnificent. And my question about that is what fundamentally changed you about your storm.
SPEAKER_03Trusting myself. Trusting myself and feeling deserving and so many things, but yeah, I would say trusting myself is a big one.
SPEAKER_01And that obviously didn't come naturally. No. So if you were to give advice to women who are going through difficult times or challenging moments in their life, what advice or wisdom would you impart to them?
SPEAKER_03One thing that I used to think about a lot was that every situation has a silver lining. I I know that's such a cliche, but my song after Michael died was first aid kit, silver linings. Um and it's very much about you're not in control of what happens to you. And this is I'd say this to my kids often, you're not in control of what happens to you, but you are in control of how you respond to it. I used to always think that self-care meant, you know, making sure you had a massage once a month, or that you went and had a pedicure in the summer or whatever. But no, I think it's about being true to what you want and allowing yourself to do what you do what you want to do. Be who you want to be, explore what you want to explore. My kids laugh at me and say I'm a dork because I like bird watching and looking at fungi. It brings me so much joy. I don't care what they think.
SPEAKER_02You know, dinner. That's a whole another podcast.
SPEAKER_03That's been covered. They grow at the end of my street if you ever need them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um Yeah, so self-care and is self-compassion. Yeah. Give yourself some grace. Grace. And doing the best you can in the circumstances.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. And allow the process, allow the allow doubt, allow the everything. Question it, look at it, dive into it as deep as you possibly can. Because fighting against it is getting you nowhere. Nowhere. And and it might actually improve your life. Yeah. And the further you the further down, I felt like when I was writing, I felt almost like I was digging a hole. And I'd kind of go, Oh yeah, that's good. That that hole's big enough. And then I'd be like, No, something's not quite right. No, you need to keep digging it. And I'd keep digging, keep digging. And it wasn't until I, you know, I hit gold. Or a nerve. It was so far down.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It was so many more layers than I ever thought that I would have to look.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's what Jack and I have talked about about this podcast is the gold is in the vulnerability. And that's the hardest part for us to share or look into as humans, isn't it? But that's where people connect.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And that is, I mean, that's what it's all about, isn't it? Connection. That's for me. That's why I write. That's everything.
SPEAKER_02That's why you go to Japan. Yep. That's why you ended up marrying Stu. Yeah. And blending your families. Yes. And you've been too long now? Nearly nine years. And how many times have you been to Japan together? Six or seven, I think. Six. And do you speak Japanese to each other in the house?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02Sometimes When you're talking about the kids or language.
SPEAKER_03Um I actually call Stu Tanaka. What does that mean? Tanaka is like the fourth most common name in Japan. It's kind of like Smith. He wanted to have a Japanese name, so when we if we eventually live there, he'll blend in. No one else.
SPEAKER_01I mean he looks he looks so Japanese. Yeah, too. So tanaka sound. Is there a phrase, a Japanese phrase or word that you live by um that you'd like to share with us? Or a concept.
SPEAKER_03Okay. I can share my favorite Japanese com concept, but it's a word the meaning of a word that we don't really have a word for. So the word is yugen. Um and yugen means the the beauty in the sadness in the world kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I just wanted to know how that day shaped who you are today.
SPEAKER_03That day shaped me in ways that I will be forever grateful for. Someone told me not to let Michael's suicide define me. I did, but not in the way that they were suggesting. It forced me to peel back the layers and get real with myself. It was the most painful experience I've ever had, but also the catalyst to more personal growth and understanding than I could ever have imagined.
SPEAKER_02Yay. Now give us a Japanese sign-off, Kylie. Well, what would you say if you're finishing conversation and you're grateful? Or just happy, happy to have been here. Thank you for your time.
SPEAKER_03Origato.
SPEAKER_01Amazing.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much, Kylie. Your vulnerability, your honesty, how open you've been about your story and Michael's story has yeah, it's incredible. And what you've survived and turned it into is absolutely inspirational. And I'm so happy that I know you and that you're willing to come on and share with us. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to That Day with Kylie and Jack. If this story stirred something in you, if you've had that day, we'd love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram at That DayPodcast or get in touch via email. Hosts at thatdaypodcast.com. Your story matters. We're listening.
SPEAKER_01We record that day in Narm on the lands of the Warangeri Boywarong people, the Kuulin Nation. We pay our respects to elders, past, present, and honour their enduring tradition of storytelling.
