The Day Tennille Gould Left A Toxic Workplace

What happens when the career you worked so hard for becomes the thing slowly breaking you?

Tennille Gould had spent more than twenty years building a successful corporate career in Injury Management and Return to Work while raising a family alongside it all. 

From the outside, it looked like success. But behind the scenes were impossible expectations, constant pressure, and the slow exhaustion that comes from holding everything together for too long.

While working remotely with her family in Mildura, Tennille made the decision to walk away from corporate life, reclaim her wellbeing, and choose a different kind of success.

What followed was a complete shift in perspective. Family, farming, boundaries, and finally feeling present in her own life again.

This is a story about burnout, courage, and what happens when you stop building the life that looks good on paper and start building one that actually feels good to live.

Follow Tennille on Instagram.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Life can change in a day.

SPEAKER_03 0:03

A betrayal, a diagnosis, a devastation, a breakdown. This is That Day, the podcast where women tell real stories of the moment life changed, the chaos that followed, and the strength they found along the way. No subject is off limits. I'm Jack, a former coronator and empowerment coach. And I'm Kylie, once an HR manager, now a published author. Together, we help women tell the stories that matter. By the end of each episode, you'll feel it, you'll learn from it, and carry it with you. Welcome to that day.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

This podcast contains conversations about difficult life experiences. Some episodes may include coarse language and themes such as illness, suicide, infertility, or childhood trauma. Please take care while listening and prioritize your well-being. Help lines are listed in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Today's guest is Tanil Gould, a registered nurse and former injury management professional who spent over two decades building a corporate career before making the courageous decision to step away. Tanil realized she was no longer leading with confidence. She was just surviving. Months of high-pressure leadership, resistant teams, and relentless self-expectation had drained her energy, joy, and presence with her family. In that moment, she made a decisive choice: step away from corporate life, reclaim her well-being, and align her work with her values. Now an active partner in a family's farming business, she combines clinical expertise, leadership experience, and lived insight to advocate for well-being boundaries and values-driven success. Welcome to Neil. Thank you, Jack and Kylie. Thank you for that lovely intro as well. We've been really looking forward to um catching up with you and for our listeners. And Tanil is all the way away in northwestern Victoria in Rainbow. How far away in hours is that to Neil from Melbourne? That's five hours. Five hours.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

So I often say to people, we're in the middle of we're in the middle of nowhere, really. It's five hours to Adelaide, it's five hours to Melbourne. You know, our nearest biggest town is Horsham, and that's about an hour and a half away from us being out on the farm a little bit. So yeah, we really are in the middle of nowhere. Everywhere. Of everywhere, I should say. What's the population of rainbow? Uh there's around about four or five hundred with rainbow and surrounding towns. We ask going to ask you about um life before that day.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

What was what was happening in your world?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

So my world was going beautifully. You know, from the outside it was looking good. On paper, it was going as I had wanted it to. I was building my injury management sort of return to work career, uh, have a nursing background. I got into nursing to get into rehabilitation counselling so I could pursue my career and return to work, which I was doing in Adelaide, and then of course moved to Rainbow because I met my husband, my now husband Adam. Um and so early on, I went back to nursing, worked for Western Royal Health Service for many years, um, and then you know, had my children, so I went on maternity leave. But whilst I was on maternity leave, there was a very serious incident that occurred at one of the sites. And I thought, oh, this is very much a work cover claim here. I wonder who looks after their work cover. Um so I of course I rang them while still on maternity leave and they said, Well, we don't really have anyone specialised to do that. Tanil, would you like to come in and we can have a chat to you? So I met with the executive director and the CEO, um, explained to them what I could do, how I could help this person return to work, you know, without it turning into a massive common law claim or whatever, because that's no good for anybody. And so that started my career back into return to work in Victoria. So I became the Return to Work Coordinator and I held held that job for a long time and built that up, I think over about seven years. But then, of course, I outgrew that position because you see the same things happening over and over again. So I kind of outgrew it and I went out on my own. I started a business called Return to Work Plus, where I started um training people in return to work and health and safety and doing some consulting work, and I actually wrote my own course as well to build on the WorkSafe course, which is what took me to the life coaching college, so I could learn how to, you know, tap into people in a way that they would listen and take on board the changes that they need to in order to better themselves, I suppose. So I did that and things were going quite well, and then that's when I was approached by this other organization to come in and work for them, and it was offered to me as a work from home position. Yes, you could manage, we could look at it maybe being three or four days a week. So I thought, well, there's a good way to be home more because having my own business was taking me away from home a lot. I have four kids at the moment, they are range in ages from seven to seventeen, but back then they were a bit younger. And that's I guess the beauty of being married to a farmer is his hours are flexible, you know. So if we if we're not cropping or harvesting, then he's quite available to be home, you know, for the mornings and the afternoons. And it worked well until it didn't, you know, it gets a bit draining, and then your kids, as they get older in high school, they need you in a different way. You know, you need to be present more so than just packing lunches. You need to really listen to them. And so I thought, well, this is a perfect opportunity. I'm offered this job, uses my skills, and um I can lead a team. So that's what happened in the lead up to this job that on paper did look too good to be true.

SPEAKER_04 5:37

So you were employed in this new job with a consulting background and a nursing background, and you were in charge of leading a team. That team was already established. That wasn't a yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

So they approached me because they were a decade-strong team, so they worked together for a long time. They had a few different managers come through. The the work cover world is quite a complex dynamic because there's a lot of different stakeholders involved. I guess the way I look at it is I've come in as a completely independent party. Then you've got your insurers that come in and they've got a different agenda to the employers, to the injured worker. So this team that were together for so long, their injury management advisor had come in from insurance backgrounds. So they were sort of building on the insurance team where I was coming in saying, we've got, we're we're employers here looking after our employees. We pay the insurers a lot of money to manage our claims and keep our costs down. So we need to get away from our computers and get out there. You know, let's face to face with these people, let's support them. Um, but the pushback was they've worked hard to keep themselves in without having to go out because that takes up too much time. So that was the first bit of resistance I received received. And when I came into the job, you know, I kind of got that unsettling feeling at the start because one of the briefs was don't be afraid to get rid of people, you know, where I thought, oh, okay, so you wanted me to come in to change the team, but now basically you're telling me you want me to clear them out and start again. So yeah, it sort of didn't sit well from the start. So I had this and this team, they were very close-knit team. I said they'd worked together for over a decade, but there was still a lot of unsettlement within the team.

unknown 7:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

But they were all happy with how they had set themselves up. And they knew how each other worked, um, they knew what they liked and didn't like, and they could sort of fight amongst themselves, but then they'd get over it and move on. But it was a team, it was a whole well-being team. So there was not only our team in the office, it was three other teams as well. And then I was getting feedback from the other team saying, Tanil, there's a lot of unsettlement in the room when your team's there.

unknown 7:44

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Okay, so, you know, and that's when we so my relationship with HR was grew very, very strong. Um, you know, not because of my behaviour or not because of how we wanted our team to grow as a return to work team or an injury management team, but how we are, you know, because within my first three months I had lost one staff member as well. Um, very she was bullied quite aggressively within the team. And that was really hard. It was really hard for me to look at because I was also a newbie coming into the team, so I could completely understand what this person was going through, but at the same time, I could also see that she wasn't a good fit for the team. So that was kind of hard to manage there because I was I'm being expected to use all these HR skills that I don't actually have. You know, I'm I can get someone back to work, I can train people to get people back to work, but as far as the HR side of it, that was way beyond my level of management that I had coming in.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Managing different personalities in an established culture that maybe sounds a little bit toxic is incredibly challenging.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

It was very challenging. Very challenging. Especially when you don't know the pers like the personalities and perhaps the best way to get the best out of them individually and collectively. It's something you have to learn over time. And coming in, you don't have that advantage.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

That's right. They were all in the same room, but because I was remote, I was away it was like this, you know, like I was here on a one screen and then they were all together on another screen.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

So that was you zoom in to the screen. Yeah. Yeah. You zoom and then they turn it off, and then you can imagine maybe conversations that might have.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yes. And then so we I'd changed the days that we'd have our meetings when everyone was working from home. And I could still, you know, you could still feel when they're chatting to each other. So it was really, really difficult for me to try and maintain composure whilst having this meeting with everyone else. In their defense, this organization that we're working for had just been through a massive restructure. And then internally, they were going through another organizational restructure. So they probably already had change fatigue to a certain extent as well. And then on a micro level, I was coming in wanting change from within the team. So I guess looking at it from their point of view, it probably was something that they didn't want to have to deal with. Whereas from my point of view, I'm like, well, the big organizational structure, that's beyond our control. We can't control that. We just have to go with it. But we can control what we're doing within our team. Um, but they'd never had anyone come in before and question their stats. You know, whereas I was coming in doing my own stats and questioning what was going on here. So an example was from a workers' comp perspective, an employer has an obligation, as far as is reasonably practicable, to not let the same injury happen again. And then I said, you know, at this one site, we've had three shoulder injuries in 12 months. Are we really, as far as is reasonably practical, is that the best we can do? Yeah. And then they're, well, we're not AH and S Chanel, we're just injury management. But surely they're linked. You'd think, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 10:58

You'd think that you'd want to was part of that role, Tanil, for them to go out to the site and implement things to make or educate people at the site how to do things safely. Is that was that part of the role as well?

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Technically, no, from their point of view. And this is the other hard part. They all had different position descriptions. They were doing the same role, but they all had different position descriptions, which they had rewritten themselves to say that they were just advising other managers. So they didn't, so that was their way of saying we don't have to go out on site. So they rewrote their own position descriptions? They didn't rewrite them, they kept them from years ago. So someone's position description was some from I think like 2014, someone else's was from 2012, you know, so they just refused to redo their position descriptions. But they had different positions.

unknown 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

What the hell? Yeah. And even though they'd had a restructure. Yes, yep, because they refused the change impact statement. Wow. That was the perfect opportunity to make everyone aligned and get everyone on the same page.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, and that's where it was difficult as well, because I wasn't used to that. You know, because I'm very compliant. So I'll look for, you know, well, this is what we should be doing. But yeah, there's there's ways around. There's loopholes in everything, isn't there? And this team was very good at finding the loopholes. Um, so it was really difficult to try and deal with that when my expertise is injury management and return to work. So that was tough. And then we had another, then one of the admins decided that it was too hard for her. You know, she was so she left as well. So then we've gone from we're two staff members down, and that's when as well the government was saying, you know, we're trying to get 127, I think it was regional healthcare providers condensed into, was it 27? You know, and everyone's funding got cut. So the the organization that I was working for, they lost $15 million in funding. So then it was, yeah, it was like no positions will be getting refilled, no vacant positions are getting filled, other than the urgent ones. So like the doctors and nurses, they would be getting refilled. So then we had to continue running with lower staff as well. So I started taking on a bit of a caseload, running it how I would normally run it, doing a lot of K's, you know, because all of a sudden my work from home job was no longer work from home. It was in Horsham a minimum of one day a week. Um, and then I was having to go to Ballarat for a week a month, like every month, a week at a time, as well as going out and seeing the injured workers that I was managing. How far away is um Rainbow to Horsham? So for me, I allow an hour and a half. Yeah, and by the time you get in there and you know, get your park, because if you get there too late, of course, you don't get a park, because who would provide parking to public health care facilities? Um so yeah, it was big.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

What period of time are we talking? Are we talking months now, six months?

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Yeah, so I I was only there for one year, but from day one, our first meeting together as a whole team, it kind of went belly up. So that's when I got this. I'm up against it here, but you know, I still had that excitement and enthusiasm. Um and don't get me wrong, like they this team, they knew their stuff, clearly, they knew their stuff, they knew how to get around it, but it was very structured, you know, like there was no deviating from the processes they already had in place. Um, I'm still I still get along well with a couple of them now, like even though I've been out away from there for over 12 months now, I still get along with a couple of them and we still keep in contact. And I do believe they've completely restructured in the team, but I would be doubtful that the way they work has changed. There would still be minimal contact with the injured worker. And that's for someone that built a career over two decades, building rapport with the injured worker, building rapport with the employer, building rapport with the agent, and then for that just to not be put into place, it was really difficult for me. So I was resistant to change as well, I suppose, just as much as they were. But I was also mindful that this is what I was employed to do. They got me here to make change.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

And it sounds like maybe a values mismatch. Like you, you know, you care you put the patient or the worker at the core of it, and they have basically made this job purely paperwork. Is that a fair assessment?

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Yeah, stats and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 15:21

And speaking to the worker and seeing things from their point of view and the employer about how to move through this process more safely or whatever. The team seemed to just be sitting at their desks doing paperwork.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll they'd meet with workers, you know, via Teams or phone calls, but the meetings were very well structured, always the same. So for me, it's you know, I'd you do the in initial assessment, you go out and see how it happened, what could how could we have prevented this? And you put those reports in place and then you file them away for later down the track if you need to. So in the 12 months I was there, I had 12 common law cases that I was dealing with. Wow. For one organization.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

That is a lot. It is a lot. Nothing replaces actually going and seeing how someone performs their work. When you're trying to help someone return to work, you as the agent absolutely needs to understand the conditions and the environment of the person because you're wanting wanting them to come back into a safe place. So you have to go to the work site. So I think you were completely on the right concept there of actually going out onto the site, but you just couldn't convince your staff.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yes, that's right. That's right. Um, you know, and because when you're trying to gather evidence for something that happened six years ago, it's not easy. You know. And it's not fair.

SPEAKER_04 16:48

Yeah. You're trying to establish yourself in this team, it's work that you have traditionally loved, but you're slowly, slowly seeing that you're not making headway here in this job and this team. How is that kind of manifesting for you? Like you you're you're career-driven, you're ambitious, you're trying to push through, you want to prove yourself in the role, but there's obviously some niggle in the back of your mind that, okay, this is not working out.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yes, it is. There was a niggle, that's right. Those um silent little whispers were becoming loud screams over time, I think. When it was one of the moments, like I could feel it, I wasn't my happy self. Like I was I was working longer hours, and that's traditionally what I do. It never bothered me because work was a big part of me. It's who I loved. I would define myself before, hi, I'm Tanil, I'm a mum, I'm a wife, I'm Tanil, I'm in the work cover industry. How can I help you? You know, that's I was very proud of that. But it got to the point where it's so I worked, I think I finished at 4.30 or something like that. My laptop was shut at 4.30. Right. But I still was thinking about it, you know, like in my head, it was, you know, I'd go for a run and it would just, it wouldn't leave my head. Like no matter what I did, it just wouldn't leave. So what I noticed is that I did stop exercising and I did start drinking more, like instead of waiting for tea time to have a glass of wine, it was like, is it five o'clock yet? Because I really need this, you know, and I knew that wasn't good. But it was what it was turning into. And then you just dread the next day, you know, like I look at my calendar, I'd wait until the last minute to look at my calendar before planning my day. So I knew that I wasn't going in there into each meeting with a fresh head because it was only like two minutes' notice. Because I thought, well, why am I investing all this time and effort into these things that aren't going to happen anyway? I spent a good eight months, I started to put together a research project basically. So I was working with our RD team. So I spent eight months and I was quite proud of that actually, like the amount of work that I put into that, to just get feedback from the actual workers. Because I thought, okay, so this is my opinion. The my team have got their opinion, which I did respect. Okay. So I'm coming new to this team. Let's find out what the workers and what the the actual managers that we're working with, let's find out what they think. What do they need? What are they lacking? What's working? But unfortunately, I didn't get to see that through. So I would have really loved to have done that to actually see from the the user's end what was working, what wasn't, what we needed to do to improve. And I think had I have stuck around long enough to do that, maybe things would have been different. But when I'm being told, Tanil, you're just making changes for the sake of change, we're not doing them. You know, that was that was tough. That's that I think was the last straw. I just thought really.

SPEAKER_04 19:32

This isn't fun. You're you're their manager and they're telling you I'm just not doing that. Is that that's a very interesting approach? Yes. Um, so you weren't feeling present at work anymore, even though you were passionate about the work. The actual job was kind of draining you. Did you feel the same at home, like you weren't present there either?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Absolutely. I did. I did. Um every January we spend in Miljura. And and my boss knew that. Um, she said, Yeah, that's fine. You can work from your laptop in Mildura, just make sure you still come into the office in Horsham one day a week. I'm like, that's a six-hour one-way trip. From she's like, Yeah, if it's just once a week. So I did that. Um, meanwhile, everyone else was travelling their 10-minute drive to work, but still couldn't make the effort to go out on site and see injured workers where I've just travelled six hours to sit in this office. I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna see people, I'm gonna make the most of my time here. And that's when I thought, you're just giving me pushback all the time. Whereas whatever I was doing wasn't being respected anyway. Because I thought, well, I'll lead by example. I'll do this, I'll go out there, I'll keep a smile on my face. But when it's not being reciprocated, it just gets hard. And I've been brought up and I have worked that you, you know, you a certain level of respect to your superiors, yeah. And I'm also all about change and and respecting each other. But you you know, you respect people in a superior position to you, don't you? But then when your subordinates are telling you, we're not doing that to Neil, this is how we've always done it, this is how we're always going to do it. It kind of doesn't sit well.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

And it sounds like that might have been the case for quite some time and they just got away with it, and there was no way they just collectively decided to go against you, basically. And that is very hard to, it's exhausting actually, to front up every day, knowing that nothing you say is going to be respected. It's actually devastating for you.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Yeah, it is, it is hard, Jack. Um, and and then also you don't sleep well on top of that. So you're also exhausted from lack of sleep. You and then you start questioning yourself. There was a time during this period as well, I was I'd actually been shortlisted for a return to work coordinator of the year in the Allied Health Award. So going up to the Gold Coast and and it was a great time for me. It was honourable. And I was nominated by someone in the industry that I really respect. you know, highly respect her. And then one of my team members said to me one meeting, she said, Tanil, do you actually know what you're doing? And that's when I thought, yeah, like it's still, you know, it it it really is upsetting for me now when I mention it. And I thought, really? That's how you think of me. There's no respect there, is there?

SPEAKER_04 22:19

So a a nomination for a national award was not enough to show employees that you knew what you were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

No, that's right. It wasn't. So I just thought that's you know whatever I do is not going to be respected.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

It sounds so toxic and just kept on like fronting up, turning up not with no sleep, with four kids at home, husband's running a farm, um, you're driving long distances over a long period of time. That is extremely exhausting and taxing on you as a person from a soul level and also from a physical and emotional and mental level. Yes. So you you said that um you started drinking a bit more what other things did you notice about you you were exercising less. What else did you notice about yourself internally that just didn't feel right?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Just the I wasn't present for my kids. I felt that I dropped the ball a bit as a mother. Socially I just wasn't really there. If you're second guessing yourself in your career as how you identify and then so if you're going to go out and socialise you're also going to become a smaller version of yourself right so that was really hard as well you know like I was going to football but I'd sit in the car because who wants to make small talk? And you know and even my kids were saying Mum you're so antisocial. You were in self-preservation mode.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

You were trying to energy to bloody show up every day. And you are a bright guiding sparkly person. So I can't even imagine you were diminishing the whole being of you was diminished it was tough.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

Yeah people around you were noticing and commenting on the changes they were seeing in you too is that right?

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Um well I don't know if they were commenting they were just I just kept to myself really Kylie I kind of just yeah just sort of went inwards I think it was really difficult. I did it I loved going to Melbourne you know like we'd go to Melbourne um and do some classes and stuff there and that was good.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

That was a really really good for me that was a good outlet I think but yeah then you always have to come back don't you were on your holiday in Miljura is this when things started to that maybe this is not the right pathway for me.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Yes that's right I um was meeting with the team because it was the start of the year so this was in January I'd run through with my executive director this is my strategy for the next 12 months this is what I want to achieve she said yeah that's good and I said all right well we've got the team meeting she said I said can you sit in? So yeah yeah I can sit in so she sat in on the meeting and also during this 12 months that I was there our the executive director the one that had sourced me out I suppose she also took a lot of leave she was going through a a really tough time herself so probably for about four months of the 12 months that I was there she wasn't there. I was having to go above her to our executive director which as amazing as she is she's not very accessible you know so it was my support was coming from her and I I didn't want to be that person that was needing help with my team all the time. I didn't want to be that manager. So that's where I was doing a lot of stuff with HR and HR were amazing but their thing was we've got to put these people on performance management plans to nil but on paper the way they were working was fine because they were doing everything as per their position description.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

But they the the people in the office the HR people don't see the disdain that they give you or the absolute disrespect in meetings and stuff. So that's very hard when you've got the paper-based doing their job.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

Yeah technically but they're actually really Well they're doing the job that they kind of wrote themselves. Yeah yeah yeah the job that their manager wanted them to do.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah that's right. So yeah so we had this meeting about the strategic direction for the next 12 months is of where we wanted the team to go. Um and I had written it down because I knew I was going to be nervous so I wrote it down you know the feedback I got to know you're reading from a piece of paper. You know they said how do we respect you when you're reading from a piece of paper? Wow did you listen to anything that I said though like what then then it all started and yeah um and then other questions Can I ask, were they mainly women?

SPEAKER_01 26:38

I'm just Yeah all women all women it's fascinating to me that a lot of toxic workplace cultures are often driven by women. There's a lack of supporting women like women you'd think they would understand that you're a working mum that you're doing best you can that you have you know most people would acknowledge other women that there's a relatability right but my experience is and I yours and I'm not sure if Kylie has the same experience a lot of women can actually make other women's lives pure fucking hell actually.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yes yeah I know yeah it but from their point of view they had kids too one of the ladies had grandkids and she was she'd applied for the job as well and didn't get it. I got it and she was the unofficial leader of that team so that's I was warned that you will be shut down by this person because she's the unofficial leader of the team. But all the other people had children as well so why would they change? You know their hours were set up exactly how they wanted them. They knew if every day exactly what time they were getting there, what time they were getting home. There was no change required from their point of view.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

If you're remote if you were working remotely and they're there every day at the water cooler going to get a coffee having lunch I can imagine the influence that that person may have been having behind your back that you weren't even aware of. Yeah. And you were fighting like a an invisible monster really.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah yeah you're right I wasn't aware of the full effect I could feel it but again I kept telling myself I I'm making it up I'm making this up everything's fine you know um but it was it was tough and then it so in the end at this time in January I thought I'm here with my family you know they're off skiing every day I'm missing my daughter learning how to single ski here because I'm dealing with this team that has absolutely no respect for me. And it was really I remember having this meeting and then just slamming my laptop shut and just crying like ugly crying thinking this is not right. You know, it's 11 o'clock in the morning the day's a beautiful day. So anyway I I went for a bit of a walk and I came back and I finished the day um and then at the end of the day I um I went and sat on the riverbank with my husband. He handed me a drink like he poured me an Aperol spritz because I was on holidays and that's my holiday drink. And then we were talking I have no idea what we were saying because I wasn't even listening to him but I remember he said something which triggered me and I threw my drink over him. He threw his drink back over me and then we were just arguing and it was only stopped because I could hear my daughter crying in the background. She saw the whole thing and I thought what is going on here? What's going on? I don't know. I don't know what he said I can't no I can't remember but what what I do remember is after hearing my daughter cry he said you need to choose to kneel it's your job or me because this isn't you and then I remember we you know went to sleep that night not even talking but I woke up in the morning if I did wake up or I don't remember if I slept and I said to him if I leave this job will you support me? And he said I always have I always will so the first thing I did that next morning was emailed my boss with the intention to resign. And she straightaway called me and said I'm not going to talk you out of this Tanil. I just asked that you have a think about it. And so I did but you know within that next 24 hours I had the executive director call me I had the director of operations call me. My boss knew that I was struggling why did it get to this point before all these other people checked in on me. Yeah you know and and I I said to the executive director I said it's either I leave or I'm gonna be on your books as a claimant yeah you know and I don't want that because I know how I'm gonna get treated and it's not going to be in my favour because I've been on I know that team and I know how it works. They there's a tick box they tick all these boxes and they don't move away from the structure that they have so um and psychological safety is such a huge thing at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

It is the most important thing about making people feel safe turning up to work and you were not in a psychologically safe work environment but you knew that and you took action.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

The moment you resigned even though they tried to you know talk you out of it did you feel a sense of relief or was or or not yet because you hadn't quite they hadn't accepted the resignation did it take a few days uh yeah yeah I did think about it it took took a few days not long and then I just come back and said yeah I do want to pursue my resignation I gave four weeks notice and I didn't even last to yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

And what was at the forefront of your mind helping you make that decision?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

The fact that I couldn't continue I couldn't lead like that Jack I couldn't lead with that constant knot in my stomach. I knew that if I had stayed there they would have told me what to do. I just would have ended up folding to what they wanted or they would have bullied me out eventually anyway. Well they kind of did didn't they they probably did yeah because I remember and I remember early on having a meeting with HR and my boss saying you know this is after the second team member left in my time I said they're slowly bullying everyone out they don't want here. They're not going to bully me out. I remember saying that um but yeah they they did.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

They panicked their team toxic workplaces do is that somebody who comes in who's looking to change things and this is not just people resistant to change. It's the fact that if you change the way things work and you show a more human side to this which is expecting them to level up in a different way they don't want you to do that because that means they have to do that. And so they're trying to shut you down so they don't have to change the way they work. And there's no reason they couldn't like as a working mother as a team of working mothers there's no reason they couldn't have kept those working hours the same and scheduled their visits to workplaces is there? No absolutely not no so it's just a different way of working but they'd been together 10 years and they were not open. And also it's very evident the attrition rate of management who has left this team over 10 years three managers did you say in 10 years? I think so I mean that's that's a massive red flag right there. So that the argument with your husband your daughter crying and just the effect on your body and your mind and then what what did you think you were going to do? Were you going to stay in this work industry and just find a better job?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

What was your plan? I actually didn't have a plan Kylie I didn't have a plan. I didn't know because my my original plan was I was going to give that five years going to be in this position this management role for five years and then either try and escalate up or move with more knowledge than I came in with. So when I left I kind of tried to get back in because I had my own business prior to starting this position initially I was just going to go back to that I was going to re-establish that rebuild my course and really put it out there. But having spoken to a few people and and Jackie was was one of them she was a really good sounding board for me I kind of wanted to take some time away from the industry to see if I was still passionate about it. Because when I was asked by a subordinate do you really know what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 34:31

That really shattered me yeah wow I mean it's you know just your self-esteem and yeah because you actually did you're actually a gun at what you did and you would run up for a big um an award to show that you were good. So the fact that you they had undermined the confidence in you so much you started to believe their words not your own belief self confidence.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

It was yeah and so when I was with West Wimmer Health Services I led their team we got two awards so that was pretty honourable and then a another CEO from another health regional Victorian healthcare company he approached me and said Taniil can you come on board and that was two hours from where I live and I said oh I'm not this is before I took the management position I said I'm not actually looking for anything permanent but let's have a chat. So I end up doing the contracting work for them and this guy is he's an amazing CEO. And I remember talking before I took the job the management position I spoke to another lady who I really respect. She's she's a CEO and she often will do some interim CEO work. So I spoke to her about it and she actually warned me against taking the position. She said you're working so closely with you know the CEO from this particular healthcare company he is one of the best if you're working so closely with him why would you leave and go to another organisation? I said because you know I want a management role I want to lead a team I want to make a difference and she said just be prepared that's all I'll that's all I'll tell you is just be prepared and um and even my husband said Neil when you know when such and such gives you advice you take it. So so I kind of went in there knowing that I was going against the grain um but since leaving this other CEO has reached out to me and said look I've heard what's happened are you okay? And I said yeah I'm fine I'll be fine and he said look work's a waste here for from our point of view if you need it. So that was good knowing that I still had the respect from people that knew how I worked knew that I got results that were the results that I look for are focused on a good outcome for everybody. Yeah. You know not just for the organisation or not just for the work safe or not just for the work. It's a good good outcome to everybody. So that was kind of reassuring but at the same time I did I did go back and I did do a few training courses but the confidence just wasn't there.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

You know every time someone in one year have managed to like you were that was your identity that people knew you in the industry as someone who was so good at this and in one year that group of people managed to crush that in you.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

But I'm also aware that that's also on me. There was something there that allowed me to be crushed that easily so I'm aware of that as well.

SPEAKER_04 37:22

So yeah as far as getting back into the industry where a workplace every day where people are not nice to you is letting them crush you easily you hung in there for a year. Yeah you need to cut yourself some slack there.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Yeah yeah that's true.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

You were also doing um a coaching course during this time as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

What role do you think the the things that you learnt in coaching help may or may not have helped you get to where you sorry was this while you were managing to help you learn how to manage a team is that why you Yeah I started coaching because I had built my own course and because I was training people and consulting and working with injured workers as well. Because when you work with injured workers you've got to move them past barriers to stop them getting back to work because if there's no barriers they'd get back to work. So I wanted to learn how to communicate with people in a way that they would make change. So all my research led me to NLP. NLP is neurolinguistic programming and it's a way where you tap into the subconscious mind. So you bypass the conscious you tap into the subconscious mind to allow people to make change because you know the subconscious mind is 94% or something of of of the way we operate whereas the conscious mind is a louder voice so it's going to take the path of least resistance. So if you can tap into the subconscious mind to make changes basically change that neural pathway then people are gonna it's like a light bulb to go oh right okay let's go but of course I did the the neurolinguistic programming the um the first NLP and I thought wow this is pretty cool what next so then of course I upgraded to do the master practice but along the way I've done the hypnosis and I wanted to upgrade again. So so what started out as just doing NLP I've now done the whole master practitioner of life coaching. Did not help you with your team it was to help you with the yeah originally went in there to help people get back to work basically and then to train others as to how to communicate with their injured workers in a way that's going to maintain that relationship. So this was all happening along the same time but I guess I was in too much of a survival mode to tap into the resources that I was actually learning to use it myself but now I am yeah but now I've done a fair bit since leaving that job to now there's been huge changes. Can I just rewind back how did your staff respond when you announced your resignation they one of the one that I'm still actually get along well with and still quite close to she was upset so we had a a meeting away from everyone else and she just said look I'm not gonna talk you out of it I know that you need to leave she knew that I wasn't getting respected and she like she actually said to me you're the best thing that's happened to this team in a long time and I'm really sorry to see you go. And then there was also another one of the admin girls she was actually quite I guess angry in a way at me because I had promoted her along the way because she was performing really well but I think she relied on me a bit too much because she said to me what do I do now? Now now that you're gone what do I do? You know they're going to treat me how they treated me before and I said you've got this you're a great operator you'll be fine but I believe she may have left too as well since I left. And then the other the actual injury management advisors I just sort of wished them well. I said you know and and one of them in particular I said I'm really sad that this has happened because as a person I really like you.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

We just don't work together very well professionally it's very mature for you to need well I didn't want to leave on too bad a term so you left and then you were encouraged to have a break?

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Yeah well I had to I had to um and what did you do like when you were had all this time on your hands all of a sudden so it was at my doctor's um and he said you know how's your job going I said I'm I'm unemployed at the moment um and he said well what are you gonna do and I said I don't know I'm actually thinking about letting my nursing registration go and he said well why would you do that?

SPEAKER_00 41:31

I said I don't know I don't know what I want to do because just in I was in my feminine energy um and then he offered me a job he said I'm looking for a new practice nurse would you be interested yeah I'm I now work as a practice nurse in um in one of the local GP practices one day a week um and that's really cool. I really like that I do health assessments on people over 75 and I actually use some of my skills with them you know like the people there's a a lot of knowledge from people that have a lived experience you know um they also question themselves too which I found I thought oh okay you they're not as confident as they appear I suppose so I ask curious questions when I'm working with people over 75 um just helping them reflect on their life and letting them uh know that you know they've they're pretty cool people too you know so I do use some of my skills there so that's one day a week and then did you turn your hand to farming? I did yes I did so we are broadacre farmers in as Jackie said northwest Victoria so we farm it's predominantly wheat barley lentils beans sometimes we do canola and we also do rerun some sheep. We don't have sheep at the moment but we are looking at getting some my father-in-law you know he's an ex-shearer he loves the sheep so my role at the moment is office manager so I've taken over the books from my mother-in-law but also built on things so I've actually implemented a lot of health and safety strategies and policies I have made some changes that's interestingly enough bearing in mind I now work with farmers and truck drivers you know and they accept the change I get a lot of eye rolls you know or they look at my husband as if to say save us what's she doing and then it's nice for my husband to say look she's the office manager now this is her choice. We need this apparently we've got to have this in place you know one of them was that we always have the the men always have toolbox talks you know like every time we're going out to do something they talk about it they look over the machines I said you know guys we've got to start documenting these meetings and they're like why what and I'm like just I'll just you know take a few notes and they're like Adam's like just she's got to do it. We've got to go with it mate you know and they accept it and that's really nice you know also she knows her shit. She knows her shit that's right and I pay your wages so you know I've now gone into HR, payroll, health and safety um accounts manager. So it's really nice.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

An area you ever imagined, like when you met and married a farmer, did you always think, well, that's your thing, that's not my thing?

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Oh, totally. We were always very separate. Up until the last 12 months, I didn't really have anything to do with the farm. Occasionally I'd help shift vehicles around during cropping and harvest. Um, you know, when we had shearers, I didn't even make the lunches. That was my mother-in-law, still did all that. So it's actually quite nice to jump on board and do this. I thought at the start I thought, oh God, I'm never gonna be able to do this. I don't do books. But my mother-in-law's really, really good at training me on how to do it. She's still there helping me out in the background. Our accountant was good at teaching me how to do it. Um, and it's it's really nice now. I understand what Adam does. I understand the big decisions that he has to make and why he has to make them. I understand, like at the moment, I don't know if anyone's aware of the fuel prices. Um, you know, that's having a massive impact on us right now. Number one, getting fuel, number two, having to pay for that fuel. It's because, you know, we're coming into the cropping season. And, you know, how do you put your crops in if you haven't got diesel to put in your in your vehicles? Um the hard thing with farming, we don't we don't state our own prices. They get dictated to us by what's going on in the rest of the world. You know, so it's with the so fuel's going up, the I don't know if you've heard about as well, the urea, the fertilizer is going up if you can get it, you know, and that's what we rely on for our crops to come up out of the ground. So um a lot of the farms are now working out how to grow crops without you having to use urea. Yeah, so this is it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_04 45:36

But um it sounds like a part of the body. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Uh Neil, how's your relationship with um Adam and the kids now?

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Yeah, it's good. It's good. Since that, though, I've had two boys go off to boarding school and the amount of trap like the up and down the highway that I've been doing, I actually said to Adam just the other day, I said, I don't know how I could work and do this. And he's like, You do work, you work for me. Like, yeah, you can't really call that working, you know, because I enjoy it. It's I enjoy it too much to be called working. So I'm more present for my kids now. My older son's in year 12. He's doing so VM vocational major, and he's doing a school-based apprenticeship with us. You know, as I said earlier, they need you in a different way as they get older, like you guys have got the older kids, you know that. So I'm there present for them. So, you know, I'm over the phone and whatever else, spending a lot of time with him to help him through this massive change that he's going through. So that's glad that I can be there.

SPEAKER_04 46:43

And now living away. Has that been hard for you to adapt to and them?

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Yes. Yes. Initially it wasn't, but I think that was I don't know, maybe it was running on adrenaline. Um, but I was sort of dropping them off and picking them up, and they were coming home a lot because they still had tennis, they had their presentation ball. And it wasn't until the first time that I actually dropped them off at the bus stop. That's when it hit hard. That's when I was crying. That's when it was like, oh my god, what am I doing? And another lady that I used to work with, she's amazing, she was there and um she said, Are you okay? She was dropping her girls off. And I said, I can't believe how hard this is. And she said, It gets easier. I know it's really hard, it gets easier. And she said, Why don't we go for a coffee afterwards, you know, and we can debrief. And so it's good, like, and I've since got to know a lot more of the boarder mums. And it's good having that circle of friends because you know what each other's going through. Like to drop the like I know that because when I was dropping them off at the actual boarding house, you kind of hand them over to I call them their boarding mum and dad. Like that's your second mum and dad, because it's a husband and wife that run the boarding house. So it was okay. I knew they were in safe hands, but dropping them off to a public bus stop from a country girl that doesn't use buses, it was quite confronting.

SPEAKER_04 48:07

So you have you've got a history of making hard transitions through your life. How did you cope with the shift in identity? You seem like someone who was very connected to their identity in their career. How did you suddenly, well not suddenly, but eventually move to being a practice manager, which is your background as well, nursing, but also doing the books for your husband. I did the books for my husband's IT business and I resented every moment of that. So yeah, I didn't make the transition well.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Are you still doing them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still doing the books. I am. Um, I don't know, I don't mind it. I I quite like it. Um you get the level of respect without being questioned. And I don't know if that sounds really superficial. Um, but you know, like people will ring me and they'll go, Oh, Adam told me to ring you to sort this out. I'm like, Diddy? Oh, okay. So he thinks I can do that. All right, let's see what we can do, you know. But I'm still, as far as identity, Kylie, I'm still finding that. I still don't know what next. I love farming and I love that I have that. You know, I I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity or the ability, I suppose, to just walk away from my job. You know, and not a lot of people have that security. So I'm very, I don't take that for granted. Because if I was living in the city with a massive mortgage, there's no way I could have done that. It was a high-paying job. So just to walk away from that. It wasn't about, it was never about the money. It was about what I could achieve or what I could give back. So I'm very grateful. Um, so I suppose there's also a big part of me now that's aware that the farm is supporting me. So I've got to give back to that as well. But is this gonna be me forever? I don't think so. I think that there's still more of me or more that I can give to other people in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Your coaching skills, do not let them go to waste because you are an absolutely brilliant coach. So do not you.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

I do enjoy that. Um, but yeah, as I said, the next the next move that I'm gonna make will be my hopefully forever move in my career. So I want to be 100% sure that that's gonna be the right move. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Does Adam look at you differently now? I mean, yes, you're his wife of 20-something years, but now you're a business partner. Does he look at you different?

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Yes, yes, he does. I think we're closer now in a different way. I think I took him for granted as well in a lot of ways, because the farm is what's going to see us into the future. Yeah, that's our future. Um, and us, a lot of us farmers-wise, we do often joke that what we make in a year wouldn't even cover one chemical bill. You know, it's it's big expenses in farming. So I do respect that Adam has the ability to keep the farm going um because it's not easy. So does he look at me differently? He does, and we often joke, like so. He bought me, you know, a heap of Glen Burney farms shirts and jeans, and he'll come in, like he'll probably walk in the office later and he's like, They're not farm clothes, hun. And he's like, I bought you these farm clothes and I've still got the tags on them. Like, so he often jokes and I still don't get my hands dirty. Which I don't agree with. You're in the office too. Yeah. I'm in the office. But the plan actually is I I said um to my father-in-law, like, I'll get you some more sheep, Denny. You know, we we'll manage the sheep together. We'll I'll because sheep's a good sideline income. Yeah, if you have a drought, you can still rely on your sheep. And Adam's just shaking his head and he's like, We're not getting sheep because it'll be me that has to deal with them. I said, No, it's not, it's my job. I'm gonna be the sheep manager. So yeah, we often joke that um and apparently I'll I was given notice last week that we've got sheep coming in six weeks. So I've got six weeks to get my head around getting dirty.

SPEAKER_04 52:00

And how do you yourself like you were carrying a fairly heavy load in the middle of this awful toxic job once you left and looked at an unknown future? Was that scary or did you feel lighter or what changed?

SPEAKER_00 52:18

So it was it was scary. It was hard for a while because I had no purpose, or I felt that I had no purpose. It was a different shift as well socially, because all of a sudden, who was I now? You know, like I'm not tenil with this job that I've worked so hard for. So I I'm a farmer's wife, but so is everyone around here, you know. I've got kids, but what what can I bring to the table? You know, like there's I felt that there was nothing. Um, I felt that every day was just another day. So that was hard. But now that I'm realizing that yeah, I do have a purpose on the farm, I contribute a lot. Um, so I'm slowly getting my confidence back up, but it's still not up there yet. So yeah, it has changed me as a person.

SPEAKER_04 53:05

A fresh perspective and a new skill set to the farm that hasn't been there before. So it's still in touch with the skills that you're using in these other jobs, but actually it's benefiting your whole family's future.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Yeah, it is. It's benefiting the family.

SPEAKER_04 53:21

So if there is a woman or a man listening who's in a similar situation to you, where they're in a job that they're really dragging their feet to, dreading every day, what kind of wisdom would you impart to them?

SPEAKER_00 53:37

I would say really, really listen to what your intuition is telling you. Because if it doesn't feel right, it's probably not. Your intuition will whisper to you, as it did for me, long before it screams, and it will just scream to you when it gets too much. So just listen to that. Because I don't think, and and you know, I know your background, Jackie, no career is worth your self-sacrifice of your how you see yourself, you know, and how you value yourself. No career is worth that. Or or a team, I don't know if it's a career or a team, it could be the team that you're in. Like for me, I I think the industry, I still value that a lot. There's a need for it, but the team wasn't worth it. You know, like for me to try and be someone who I wasn't every day, it wasn't worth it. You know, um, for me, I never took a sick day. And six months I took three sick days, which for some people is not much. But for me, that was like, what are you doing, Tonil? If you don't take it, you're gonna get sick. If you do take it, then you've got this one voice on each shoulder saying, What are you doing, Tonil? You're weak. But then another voice saying, Tonil, you need to rest. That when you get to that point is when you really need to start listening. That's when you do need to take those mental health days and really reflect on what you want. Speak to people. If you can get coaching, get coached. You know, what what other resources do you have? What other avenues do you have? You know, and and once when when you do get some good coaching, you'll realize that there's always doors that could be opened for you. Look, look out for those opportunities because there might be opportunities there that are way better than what you're going through right now.

SPEAKER_04 55:06

That's good advice. Free coaching, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Yeah, we do our our stories have a real synergy, actually. Everything explained is very similar to mine just in a different. Do you have a farm? No. I did grow up, grow up on a um hobby farm, but anyway, that's another thing. In terms of um a difficult workplace and making that really hard decision about your identity is linked to an income, a title, a role. And then when you walk away from that, it you are a little bit discombobulated and you have to go, who who am I now? And so a lot of your discussion today has really hit home again to me.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

It's very eye-opening realizing how many people go through this. You know, when you look at a lot of people that I really idolized thinking, I want to be, that's who I want to be, that's what I want to do. Behind closed doors, they're completely different, you know, like it's not this career, is not everything, or they make it everything to the sufferance of everything else. And that's not worth it.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

That is such a good point, Danielle. We we look at people that we admire and you think, oh, they got their shit together and scream at their kids, and they're always present, they always look well, you know, presented and you know, scratch the surface. So many women are feeling what we feel right now, and we just don't talk about it. We're not honest about it. So that's one of the reasons we want to bring out these stories for women. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 56:34

We're so lucky to have women who are willing to tell their stories and show the vulnerable times.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

Especially used to being highly regarded in different roles. It's hard to be vulnerable, but it's really important because it sort of gives permission, doesn't it, for other women or uh anyone struggling to say, hey, maybe this isn't for me. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

I just need help.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

That's right. Yeah. And I really liked what you brought up earlier, saying that as so many women want to support each other, but when you work in a workplace full of women, it can be quite toxic because women really want to preserve what they've built for themselves, you know, or that they're struggling too, so I'm not gonna help you. I've had to fight for this, so you can fight for it too. And that's what it was like in my team. These people, they were getting paid the same, so they weren't gonna help anyone, like any new people coming through. Well, you're getting paid what I'm paying, getting paid, so you can work it out for yourself. And that really didn't sit well for me. I I like to see women do well and lift women up, but it is not always rainbows and butterflies, is it? I mean, awesome.

SPEAKER_04 57:40

Yeah, is there anything else you wanted to add or no?

SPEAKER_00 57:43

I just want to say thank you for this opportunity and thank you for bringing this podcast to life. I can't wait to listen to it. I think it's gonna be amazing. Thank you. We're excited to.

SPEAKER_04 57:52

Thanks for listening to That Day with Kylie and Jack. If this story stirred something in you, if you've had that day, we'd love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram at That DayPodcast or get in touch via email. Hosts at thatdaypodcast.com.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Your story matters.

SPEAKER_03 58:11

We're listening.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

We record that day in Narm on the lands of the Warangeri Boy Warong people, the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to elders, past, present, and honour their enduring tradition of storytelling.